I’m Thanks to everyone for their support. If it honestly wasn’t for this site and these people I think I would have screwed things up and wouldn’t be making the type of progress I’m making.
BPD -- Believe me, I understand the thought trap you are in. I regularly re-enter that trap and then DnJ or Job or various other friends here have to hike all the way out to my thought trap with a crowbar and pry it open and put some balm on the trap-shaped wound on my ankle, give me a drink from the canteen (or preferably the flask!), reset the trap to catch its intended prey, the MLCer, and hike me home.
But just in case you are able to pry it off yourself, here is a sample of how. I always want extreme specifics from my friends here, and I don't always get it so I will be specific! : ) --
Originally Posted by bpd
Hard part is that I believe she realizes the fantasy life is not attainable and that I am her easy choice
You are not her easy choice. That's not true on any level, even hers. Making a marriage work, let alone be amazing, is really hard. The easy choice is the affair and the running. Even the MLCer knows that. Keeping you as a possibility doesn't make you the easy choice. It just makes you a choice among two or three choices, and I know how horribly painful that is.
Originally Posted by bpd
17 years of marriage / 3 kids / life of great memories and now I'm simply Plan B. Hard pill to swallow. ....
You are not simply Plan B and there is no pill you need to swallow. Avoid her MLC pills and go eat something you enjoy! You are not Plan B but BPD, a wonderful loving man who has upheld his vows against impossible odds. Your W's ability to see that through her MLC glasses is not what determines the truth of it. Stick to the truth, not the words coming out of her mouth.
Originally Posted by bpd
I hope her feelings are just buried and will return, it would be nice if she would work on the marriage since she has decided to stick with it. ....
Her feelings are without a shadow of a doubt just buried. It's extremely possible that her feelings will return; the question is not if they will return but if you want to wait that long. You have no control over the feelings returning; you only have control over your choice to enjoy your life while you are waiting or enjoy your life while choosing not to wait anymore. I have been waiting for seven years, and there were some six-month periods along the way where my H seemed to be climbing out of the tunnel only to slink back into it -- or, at times, to dynamite a new passage back in. I never want to see the MLC version of my H again, but somehow I know that I am still standing for the man I loved before even though I have no idea where he went and I really don't want to keep standing when the person who looks kind of like him and seems to have swallowed him whole is so evil. But the point is -- you have been standing for an extremely short time, and I would really recommend to you that you try to imagine her return not happening for two years and go from there with your attempts to GAL, let her go, and be her friend if you want or don't if you don't. Thinking you are going to work things out right now is going to make her feel trapped and make you feel crazy and tortured.
And finally --
Originally Posted by bpd
It's like trying to watch a pot boil.
Um, surely if you are referencing that idiom, you know that the point of all grandmas and moms saying that is to get you the heck away from the stove because that pot ain't going to boil with you standing there. Yes, that is exactly true, what you are doing is exactly like watching a pot boil, and every single person with a grandma knows that we are not to watch pots boil! Go outside and play and only come back in for a cuppa tea when you hear that whistle blowing! Your W chooses when to whistle, no point in waiting there to watch it, and she sure won't like that or be able to whistle very well with your eyes glued to her.
I want you to know that I get it. I am writing on your thread tonight because I am desperately lonely and came on the board to feel less lonely. I should be doing my work but am instead writing to you in part to dispel my own feelings of sorrow. I am seven years in and I am still crushed by the various revelations or monster-moves that come my way. But not nearly as crushed as I used to be, and from the outside, no one would know that my heart is hurting. In the old days I was 103 pounds and smoking a pack a day and looked like a deer in headlights. (Though admittedly where I live, that's considered desirable, and people were always complimenting me and asking me how me and my H were staying so trim!) But I have finally gotten H out of my house, I have finally accepted his efforts to divorce me, I am trying to live a life despite the pain. And yes, I am still on some crazy level, deep down, standing. But I am not watching him anymore, I do feel sad but I never watch his behavior anymore or expect anything from him, and so I have a certain freedom now. You can too, whether your stand is a year, two years or ten.
Last edited by Gerda; 10/06/1912:55 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Hi folks, it's been awhile since I posted last. It takes me time to build the nerve to vent openly.
Brief summary: Wife mother battles / wins cancer 3-4 years ago. Wife takes it hard Within last 4 years she rebels with 4 tatoos, occasional partying / flirting, addiction to shopping / working out / trying to stay youthful. Dec 18 - Jan 19 - 2 Months of EA Feb 19 BD - ILYBNILWY, not soulmates, no romantic feelings / passion, never had feelings for you etc. Feb to Aug - Wife depressed, withdrawals from everything Aug - she comes around a bit, vacation with kids is amazing, sex Sep - Oct - feels like reconnecting, she is friendly, doing nice things for me, even more sex Nov - she is somewhat reconnecting but shows signs of depression again. Last 3 weeks - Depression signs come and go. She is back to distracting herself with podcasts, music, working out etc. There were times that it felt like Feb to Aug
I can really see the moments where she is battling something. When we drink she has brought up past issues that I already knew about. Her father was very very strict and stubborn. He definitely created issues within her in her early years. Teenage years were worse. Once if found out she was no longer a virgin he stopped talking to her. She literally said that they spent a year keeping to themselves in different rooms and saying 2 words to each other a day. What gets me is this is exactly what she did to me for 6 months.
I absolutely appreciate the last 4 months but she is moving very slowly. She will not address anything, no affection except for buying me whatever I need / want.
I can tell she is in pain and deep thought about things, but she also works hard to avoid this with working out, loud music, podcasts etc, wine. The worst is that the shopping addiction has not stopped. I think the last 2 months have been getting worse. I am struggling on how to deal with this. It's her credit card / her debt. I'm scared that this will cause more emotional issues for her to deal with.
I have been trying hard to make our house and relationship a safe place. It's really hard to watch her go through this and of course it's even harder to manage my personal analysis / paralysis.
She talks about future things in terms of kids, house, vacations etc. She even mentioned wanting a pet and then 2 weeks later changed her mind. She talks about wanting a different job, one that fits her introverted personality.
I do believe she recognizes she has issues but she stopped seeing the therapist in September because the sessions ran out.
There are so many times that I would love to talk about us or my feelings of frustration with this whole ordeal. It would be nice to not think about this 90% of the day, but that is my issue.
Looking forward to Christmas, it is her favorite time of year. It would be nice to feel a little affection from her but my expectation is a zero.
The experts and readings of mlc always said that with time answers will reveal themselves. Slowly but surely they are. The last month was not good. I thought things were improving but then she seemed more depressed and withdrawn than ever. The Christmas holidays were rough, but then came New Years and she started to come back around. The last week has been great. This is one heck of a rollercoaster. During Christmas I talked to her sister, she told me that my wife has really low self esteem despite what people may see or think. I never really thought this but I do understand where this is coming from based on her upbringing. The other information is my wife is still extremely scared of mortality. She keeps researching cures for cancer and ways to combat aging and death. It's amazing how all of this screams what is written about midlife depression.
I worry that my wife needs to talk to somebody about this and I wish I could encourage, but I have done really well at detaching and not discussing anything related to our situation.
The other thing is that my wife is trying to reconnect and has even suggested going on a date - Movie / Dinner. I know she wants to have feelings for me but currently doesn't. I worry that we go on the date and she most likely will still have numb feelings. I'm not going to say no obviously but I struggle daily with how to treat my wife. I've been DB for a year now, we go through the pursuit / distance game constantly. I try to live by Sandi's rules but constantly feel like I am coming across as too cold and distant. Basically I follow her lead and mirror how she treats me.
Any advice and suggestions is more than appreciated.
Your wife is in the throes of MLC. She's depressed, she has low esteem and worrying about mortality. All things the MLCers suffer from and need to work on. If she opens up and wants to talk, listen to her and validate her thoughts/feelings.
Now, here's the thing, if your wife suggests going to a movie and/or another activity, unless you are busy or don't feel well, I would accept now and then. You need to remember that right now, she is searching for answers and the only way to find them is to test the waters. You need to keep your expectations at zero and try to look at her as just a friend. Depression numbs their feelings and while those childhood feelings of resentment, hurt, etc. are bubbling to the surface, all of the good things have been stuffed down. So, please do not take what she says about her feelings as a personal attack on you...this is her journey and until that depression lifts, her feelings not only for you, but all of the goodness in her life has been put on the numb stove for a bit.
If you want to go on a date w/her then accept her request once in a while. You might discover that she will be more open to talking a bit more freely when she's in a different environment and feels safe to do so.
Keep your expectations at zero, treat her as a friend, listen, but don't offer advice unless she asks for it, dig deeper for patience and keep the focus on you and your GAL activities.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
The emotional rollercoaster is a rough ride. Christmas was tough and then New Years is somewhat better. Up and down.
Originally Posted by bpd
The other thing is that my wife is trying to reconnect and has even suggested going on a date - Movie / Dinner.
Go on a date.
MLCers emotions change pretty quickly so I’d take her up on the offer. A person in crisis is like a teenager in a lot of respects. I’ll share a story, it might help.
A few days ago, D17 came out to the living room with a brand new board game she had bought for a Christmas present. I think it was for someone, probably me, to give to her; but she forgot about it and found it while cleaning her room. Anyhow, there she stood, game in the box all wrapped in plastic, and not yet opened.
I was settling in, about to start watching a movie. The lights were low, and room bathed in the glow from the plasma screen. D17 asked “Do,you want to play a game?” I immediately picked up the remote, said “You bet!”, and shut off the entertainment system. The sudden darkening of the room accenting the affirming response.
We went to the kitchen table, unwrapped the game, read the rules, set it up, and played for almost two hours.
Now a teenage daughter is a funny weird strange loving creature. One day speaking, the next ignoring. You get use to it. And by the way, boys are not much different; maybe not changing quite as fast. Lol.
Anyhow, she asked and I made time right then and there. Then the next day, she asked again. So another hour or so playing a game. If I had said something like “Oh, I was just about to watch a movie how about tomorrow?” I don’t believe she would have asked the next day nor been as happy as she was.
Your W is a teenager. Her emotions change even faster than a normal teen. When she asks for a date, make the time right then. Of course this is if you want too. However, I know you want to, and you realize this is not some magic fix.
This immediate affirming action promotes similar behaviour from W. Also, going out then (if that is what she was wanting), is the time you know her feelings are that of her wanting to go. So, the chances of her having a good time are even better, than tomorrow or 2 hours from then.
Originally Posted by bpd
I know she wants to have feelings for me but currently doesn't.
Careful about mind reading.
How do you know what she feels? They change all the time. Those ups and downs of the rollercoaster.
Also your mind is listening to you. And crafting your beliefs.
I am pretty sure at times she appears to have feelings for you, other times she actual does show them, and other times she appears to not have feelings. The “current.y doesn’t” is not accurate. She buries her feelings; they are not gone.
Originally Posted by bpd
I worry that we go on the date and she most likely will still have numb feelings.
Fear and worry. No need to borrow them from a possible future.
Expectations. If you go on a date expecting her to most likely still have numb feelings, you will behave in a manner, quite unintentional, yet still behave in a manner that self-fulfills that expectation.
No expectation. Go have a good time. Listen, validate, diner, movie. She will most likely have a good time. She did after all suggest it. She may not show it, don’t worry.
I do understand your concern about seeming to cold and distant. You are doing very well following her lead and mirroring how she treats you.
Following along with her date idea is good. It also is not cold and distant, nor pressuring. She is asking. This is a good step.
Keep expectations at zero and enjoy the time together.
Be the safe place for her.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Job / DnJ and for all those that have supported others.
I don't know how you do it. Offer so much support to those in need. Not only for the support but also the spot on advice that helps so many people manage their emotions, thoughts and expectations. I can't imagine the amount of money spent on therapy within the mlc world and yet people like you probably understand this world and provide better feedback than any therapists could. For that I thank you.
I have struggled this past year and my situation is very mild compared to others. It is tough living with someone that flicked a switch after 20 years together and treats you like an enemy, friend, stranger etc. but my story is nothing compared to others. I know my wife is trying to reconnect and figure herself out. I try to stand back and watch from a distance (same room, 2 feet away on couch, dinner table, driver seat etc.) I have been GAL with working out, construction etc. The best therapy has actually been the hands on construction, I love it. I have read that the later stages are tough and slow. You can see them but they are not fully there, I totally get this. I may not even be in the later stages which is scary too.
True MLC is an unseen world, existing right in the open. Most everyone, before they have experience with it, have only seen the Hollywood version. The funny “guy buy red sport car” mid life crisis and everything turns out great by the rolling of the credits. Therefore most everyone doesn’t believe in MLC, nor can they - it is quite unbelievable even to us LBS for a while.
You now experience the world unseen. Few know about it, fewer believe it, and fewer understand it. Your experiences are a gift and blessing, if you choose them to be. The mind is a fragile thing; it defines one’s reality and truth; which are therefore most fragile as well. Kind and compassion towards one’s fellow man becomes the norm; for who knows what demons they are battling within.
It is interesting when we rate our situations. You feel your W’s MLC is milder than most; something I’m sure wasn’t the feeling when it all first went down. This shows your growth and strength. You resilience and confidence. Well done.
Originally Posted by bpd
The best therapy has actually been the hands on construction, I love it.
Yes, doing something, GAL, is great therapy.
What type of construction are you involved in?
I also have construction therapy. My work provides ample opportunities and of course projects around the house seem endless. There is something about imagining and then creating, bring that imagined idea to life, with one’s own hands. It is very good therapy to build when standing within so much destruction.
You are doing well with the roommate lifestyle, and letting her lead things. Has she asked for another date? Did you two go out? Expectation low. She will most likely flip and flop as she gain comfort in her new feelings and trust in you being a safe place.
You are much further down the path than she is. Be a beacon. She needs to walk her path. You can provide something for her to head towards. Continue to be the man that only a fool would leave.
You have lots of time, keep using it well.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks, I've been taking down and putting up walls to create space. I'm pretty good at everything except mudding and taping, but I try.
As far as the date, it's planned for next week. I am looking forward to it, but also nervous. I don't want it to feel awkward. I may write down a bunch of conversation topics beforehand. It's so weird to have to do this with someone you've been with for 20 years.
The displayable depression / withdrawal from the past month is currently gone. She is way more upbeat / happy, doing a lot of things she hasn't done in a year. We spent Saturday drinking and having fun. She is constantly going out of her way to do nice things for me. It's really nice to see.
She keeps bringing up a variety of things. Not sure if she is trying to make subtle excuses for her actions or not. She has on multiple occasions shared her upbringing and difficulties with father. She comments on things that are pre menopausal. She comments that all our children need is to "feel loved". I worry about my youngest since my wife sleeps with them in their room. Our kids have no idea that something is going on. The only thing my kids think is that Mommy goes through major mood swings.
I saw an instagram post she saved that stated "You are enough, a 1000 times enough". I didn't realize she had self esteem issues. I try to praise her for things she does as much as I can.
Oh that dreaded muddling and taping. That is my worst.
I haven’t done that In years. Lots of thin layers, lots of sanding, and lots of patience. Ha, patience. Well, we’ve all got better at that.
I’m like you, I am ok at drywall finishing. Screw heads were better than my joints. The inside corner joint being my worst; those darn bubbles under the tape.
Good on you. New walls, doors, plugs and wiring - lots to get your hands busy. And your mind. It is great therapy.
Nice to hear you have a date planned for next week. I can see how nervous you feel, from your post. Relax. She said yes. She wants to spend time with you. Be you.
Originally Posted by bpd
I don't want it to feel awkward. I may write down a bunch of conversation topics beforehand. It's so weird to have to do this with someone you've been with for 20 years.
I totally get that you don’t want it to be awkward. And yeah, dating someone you’ve known for 20 years.
Perhaps this might help.
You and her are not the same people you once were. This new her - you have not known for 20 years.
She is showing some positive signs and is enjoying your company. Keep it light and have a good time. You are getting to know each other - again. One of her big things is if you will accept what she has done. And that is not said, it is lived. Demonstrate it.
Think back to who you were 20 years ago. Who were you? What traits did you display? Something caught her eye back then; something caught her eye again.
Those are some of the 180’s that are spoke of. Those changes you hopefully made for you, have intrigued her and just might be a beacon for her.
Relax and show her and you a good time. No expectations. No relationship talks, this is a date. She may hide again for a while after, she may have stirred feelings that she needs to process.
Do not worry, time will tell. Go slow and see where she is leading.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Things are more or less the same. W keeps cycling with moods. I feel really bad for our oldest son because he takes the brunt of it. She is always nice and friendly to me except for the fact she shows zero affection.
The potential good news is she seeking answers. The first 6 months post BD she was reading books that were either feminist or about independent lives and divorce. Yesterday I saw the book she was reading "Why we can't sleep". I have no idea if she can't sleep or not since she sleeps in a different room but I remember the experts keep saying that they have trouble sleeping at night. Anyways I looked into the book and the full title is "Why we can't sleep, Women's new midlife crisis"
I can't believe how it feels like a massive weight has been taken off my shoulders. I have been personally cycling with emotions lately, doing everything I shouldn't be doing. Worrying about her, waiting to see what moods she is in, mirroring the mood she is in etc. I guess the weight off my shoulders is that I do believe she is progressing.
The unfortunate thing is the book seems to be about Generation X women that were raised to believe they should have everything but don't feel that way. Talks about debt, media etc. I haven't read it through but I doubt there is any information about psychology and childhood connections. The unconscious meeting the conscious. Based on conversations and other things I know my wife is having past issues bubble to the surface, "Shadow Fragments".
Regardless, I am happy she is reading things that are meant to help her. I may actually buy a copy and read it.
MLC is all about the past and things bubble up from their childhood because they were emotionally stunted. MLC's main ingredient is depression. Depression = past and Anxiety = future.
I will have to check out the book, as we have talked about the childhood issues for 20+ years here on the forum. Here's a link that might prove interesting for you:
Last edited by job; 01/17/2003:00 PM. Reason: added a link to another thread
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Hi everyone, it’s been awhile. The last couple of months my wife and I have been reconnecting. Doing everything together, laughing, loving etc. No heavy talks at all. It’s been great with an asterisk. Last couple of weeks she has withdrawn again and 2 nights ago an unfortunate event occurred. She got very drunk and texted a different OM. That she needed him to be sexual with her. I saw the text and it was incredibly hurtful. She was trying to make plans for the next day to meet up. Next morning I confronted her, she denied anything was really going on and it was just drunk text. I actually do believe her. They of course never met up. I have been holding a lot in the last year and it came out. I expressed to her that I believe she is depressed and carrying demons. She didn’t argue it really. Last couple of days she has a lot of guilt. She deleted her Instagram account that she messaged with. She did stuff she didn’t want to do and explained it as punishment. 5 mins ago she just came in the room and apologized for things saying that she knows that I’m not the wife that I thought I married. That she does overthink things but she doesn’t think she carries demons. I thanked her for the apology and said it’s been really tough trying to process all of the things she has said and done. She agreed it would be tough. I have been a total wreck over the latest incident but then quickly tried to detach. I’m am just so shocked for the apology, she is not the type to do this. Not sure where this goes from here. This can not be my normal for a future. This as everyone knows is unfair beyond words. I would be nice if the latest incident would be rock bottom but who knows. We talk and flirt and carry on like things are good but the elephant is just too large.
I would appreciate any perspective. I honestly believe that the latest incident was a blip and she hasn’t done anything like this since last summer. This all hurts so much.
BPD, they totally come and go. My H did things like this too. They are very confused. You have to decide if you have the stomach to stay close while she is unsure. I would not get into R talk or tell her she has demons. Your telling her that does nothing. She has to realize that on her own. It might take years. You are rushing! Live your own life and decide if you want to live separately. Expect nothing from her until she initiates something deeper and looks and acts different. Try to read your post as if you were reading a friend's e-mail explaining all that about a woman he just started dating. You'd never advise him to keep dating her. You can keep standing but that doesn't mean you should believe anything she says. You can keep flirting and sleeping with her if you have the stomach for it but you need to assume she will keep doing this until she is ready for real transformation. She can't truly reconnect with you until she is herself again.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I have removed your link to another site that is not directly related to this site. As a reminder, here is a thread that reminds posters of one of the policies of the Board/Forum:
And by the way, boys are not much different; maybe not changing quite as fast. Lol.