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I Saw It on Mulberry Street #2866838
09/30/19 02:20 PM
09/30/19 02:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,767
Canada
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AndrewP Offline OP
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AndrewP  Offline OP
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Old thread - These Boots
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2866822&page=1

One of my daughter's favourite books for me to read to her was Fox In Socks.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2866858
09/30/19 05:44 PM
09/30/19 05:44 PM
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Dawn70 Offline
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Ok, so I have to be honest because you know I love you. (By the way, I am responding to your last long post on your previous thread, so this may not make sense to those who didn't go back and read it before jumping here.) I, personally, did not think it was a red flag for S to not offer to pony up half of the cost of your date on Sunday. It did seem to be a red flag to me that she lives off support money from XHs. Now, in your most recent long post, you say that she and her most recent X both list themselves as separated and not divorced. I'm trying NOT to let my personal feelings on this subject get in the way, but after you went down that road once before, I would just say you should proceed with extreme caution. People can say they are separated and maybe there are even some legal steps toward that which have been taken, but the fact of the matter is that she is still married and ANYTHING can happen. I just don't want to see you get hurt.

I have to admit, I'm kind of a stickler about that "separated" thing. When I was actively OLD, I would not engage with people who listed themselves as separated because even if they are truly separate, there is just not much room for error there, so to speak. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you what to do or how to feel and if you want to move forward knowing that she is not divorced for whatever reason, you are an adult and should totally do what you have to do. Of course, I had 2 bad experiences with that whole "separated" issue, so whatever...maybe that is clouding my judgment. LOL

You do you, Andrew and have a good time. Just, please, proceed with caution. I say that only because I care about you and do not want you to get hurt.


Me 49, XH 51
3 adult daughters from his first marriage
3 grandsons, 1 granddaughter
My 1st marriage, his 2nd
BD 9/29/2014
H moved out 10/6/2014
H filed D 11/4/2014
D final 12/17/2014
Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2866887
09/30/19 07:56 PM
09/30/19 07:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,714
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doodler Offline
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I know exactly what Andrew is doing. He's scheming. He doesn't really want the woman. He wants the children so he can sell them for scientific experiments.

Have you no soul?

Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2866906
10/01/19 12:47 AM
10/01/19 12:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 150
Australia
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devvo Offline
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I'm going to chime in and add my agreement with Don's post. My XH's parents absolutely detest each each other to this day. The hatred between them runs strong and deep. There was a time when XH and his siblings would divide family occasions between the parents so that they were not in the same room. When XH and I got engaged though, I put my foot down (and probably in it too, but I digress) as I thought it was high time MIL and FIL learned to behave like grownups. They'd been apart for at least 12 years and to my mind that was enough time to stop with the full-blown civil war.

As it happens, both parents agreed, fully realising that to continue the war would mean a) they were causing a lot of angst and grief for their children (this was MIL's worry) and b) the chance of being excluded from something important (this was far more FIL's worry). I'm absolutely certain it wasn't easy for either of them, but to their eternal credit any time they've been at the same family event they have both behaved well enough to get invited to the next one.

My XH has now been emphatically told that he is not to involve our boys in his communication issues with me. Just last week they both had reason to tell him that if he has something to say to me he says it direct and not to use them as intermediaries. I'll post on my own thread in more detail about this when this week's events play out to some sort of conclusion, but suffice to say Don's point about family dynamics continuing long after children turn 18 is totally valid.


Me:55 H:55
S:22 S:20
M:24 T:26
BD:Aug 15
D:Sep 17
Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2866932
10/01/19 11:00 AM
10/01/19 11:00 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,091
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Ginger1 Online
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I couldnít agree more with all that was said regarding coparenting. I think at any age parents who donít speak really affect them. Iím sure hiding the fact he sees his mother or mentioning his mother puts a strain on him. I know my ex and I had to coparent, speak and be civil. I looked into her futures and all her big events, and I didnít want anyone to have to miss out. And I wanted her to be comfortable for them. And she is. And she often tells me how happy she is that we can talk ďunlike other divorced parentsĒ

Your son is struggling so much that you had to point him to the crisis hot line. Now is a better time than any to extend the love branch. Not for you, but for your kids. Putting the BS aside and focusing on your kids.
Someone usually has to be the bigger person in all this. I do think that could be you. As long as you donít make it about your marriage or what happened to the both of you, it could really make a huge difference in your childrenís lives.

I often feel so sad for Mís son. His parents donít even look each other in the eye or say a word to each other when in the same room. This will be his life if his ex doesnít but the BS. M wanted to communicate with her regarding S. She refuses . And itís going to hurt one person, that innocent little boy. Heís still young and innocent. He talks about his mom openly in front of his dad and me. But that wonít last forever if they donít get on the same page.

Sure, itís scary. But we all say we would take a bullet for our kids. But when push comes to shove, many wonít put their own stuff aside long enough to do whatís best for their kids. Itís a proverbial bullet. And that bullet doesnít have to kill you.

It really is something to think about. Maybe him just knowing his parents are on his team as a team might make a world of a difference.

One thing doesnít work for sure. Burying our head in the sand. You wonít give him the tough love push he probably needs. But maybe this could help. Heís a 25 year old man, truly struggling and lacking drive to make it better. Maybe when he sees his mom and dad really want that for him and they are on the same page, he will get that drive.

It really is something to think about .

Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2866985
10/01/19 06:59 PM
10/01/19 06:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,113
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Dawn70 Offline
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I'm sorry S25 is struggling. I'm not in his situation (or yours for that matter), so I can't KNOW how it feels, but I would imagine it has to be difficult to be a grown man still living in his childhood bedroom and not having anymore drive than he did at, say, 14 or 15. Though I doubt that you put pressure on him about keeping his visits with his mom silent, he likely still feels pressure, whether that is of his own making or not.

I'm a bit naÔve, maybe, to the whole parent issue because my parents divorced when I was 25, but have continued to remain a united front for the most part. We still celebrate all of our family holidays together as well as milestones like graduations and kid/grandkid birthdays. I do realize that not everyone is that way, but I guess I just never thought about how it might affect adult "children". From that standpoint, I have found this discussion quite interesting. Because I like to be able to learn and grow from what I read, what it has actually done for me is made me rethink how I interact with XH. In the relatively near future, he will be moving back here and while we won't like celebrate holidays together, since the girls are already stretched thin anyway, we may very well celebrate grandkids' birthdays together and I need to have a strategy for communicating that is polite and friendly but doesn't come across fake and contrived because I would hate for the girls to get the wrong message. So, thank you all for your wisdom.

Andrew, sorry for the hijack, but just offering a different viewpoint on the situation. It may really benefit your son if you and XW could get on the same page. You don't have to fall back in love and rehash a bunch of old crap to still love, care for and want what is best for your children and to work as a unit accordingly. You've said many times you won't put him out and you have also said that XW is no help, but at some point, if he is really in a bad way, y'all are going to have to figure out how to come together to give him the push and the support that he needs to move on. He seems to tell you on occasion things about wanting to move out and that sort of thing, but it seems that is just lip service and he is likely just telling you what he thinks you want to hear. I have said this before, but in many ways, he is living a much younger lifestyle than his actual age might suggest. He's a grown man and may well have some maturity about him that comes from being the age he is, but he's also living like a 13 year old with little responsibility. He does have his car payment to worry about and that is a good thing because it does give him responsibility to a certain extent, but other than that, he's not really on the hook for anything else so his life hasn't changed much from where he was 10 or 12 years ago. You don't want to push and I get it. But, there may come a time when you and XW have to band together and push, cajole, support, carry, enforce, motivate....whatever you have to do to get him to a better place. You are clearly a loving dad who wants what is best for his kids. I can't speak to the mom your XW is because I only have your side of that story and as we all know there are 2 sides. What I can say is that this seems like a time when your S25 needs both of you and though he may not admit it or even take overly kindly to it, he needs a little tough love from both parents to help him navigate to a more adult version of his life.


Me 49, XH 51
3 adult daughters from his first marriage
3 grandsons, 1 granddaughter
My 1st marriage, his 2nd
BD 9/29/2014
H moved out 10/6/2014
H filed D 11/4/2014
D final 12/17/2014
Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2867022
10/02/19 01:02 AM
10/02/19 01:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 770
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exquisitetobe Offline
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Careful here..
We are not in your son' s head.

What if he is overwhelm ( lack of work, lack of direction, not many close friends to confine in etc. )
Pushing him away will only make him more depress and lonely.

In my opinion, you should have taken the opportunity of your trip to bring him along and reconnect with him.
It does not seem like there is any FAMILY time in your family. Even when you visit your D, Son is left behind.

I would try very hard to give him YOUR time doing something as father and son other then a sunday supper.

Just my opinion..

Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2867052
10/02/19 09:32 AM
10/02/19 09:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,918
Massachusetts
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bttrfly Offline
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I agree with exquisite - I realized my son craves the closeness of dinners with mom every night. it gives him a chance to touch base about his day. He gets quite put. out. if we go more than a day or two without having a meal together. It used to irritate me, but now I realize what it means to him, and things are better between us and between his ears, seemingly, as a result.

Andrew, could you email your concerns to exw? She is his mother. She may not see what you do, as you're the one living there.


M 20+ T25+
BD 4/6/15
D Final 12/23/16


ďYour task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.Ē - Rumi
Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: doodler] #2867065
10/02/19 01:55 PM
10/02/19 01:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,767
Canada
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AndrewP Offline OP
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AndrewP  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,767
Canada
Originally Posted by doodler

I know exactly what Andrew is doing. He's scheming. He doesn't really want the woman. He wants the children so he can sell them for scientific experiments.

Have you no soul?

I've sent my soul out for polishing and forgotten the receipt. I did point out to B that her 4 kids and 6 of her grand-kids (the rest are step) were the ideal candidates for organ donors so she needed to be extra nice to them and make sure they are kept healthy. S has 5 kids and one grand-kid so she's got a good inventory available.

Originally Posted by exquisitetobe
Careful here..
We are not in your son' s head.

What if he is overwhelm ( lack of work, lack of direction, not many close friends to confine in etc. )
Pushing him away will only make him more depress and lonely.

In my opinion, you should have taken the opportunity of your trip to bring him along and reconnect with him.
It does not seem like there is any FAMILY time in your family. Even when you visit your D, Son is left behind.

I would try very hard to give him YOUR time doing something as father and son other then a sunday supper.

Just my opinion..
Thanks everyone for your input. I know that you all have good intentions with your advice.

S25 had zero interest in going to Spain and similarly to go visit his sister. She makes an effort and sends him cards and presents at birthdays and such but he doesn't. He seems perfectly content with this. His sister has an ever increasing frustration and annoyance with his lack of reciprocity. On my first solo visit to D27 a few years ago I had invited S25 along with me, paid for him to get his passport - twice - actually walked him to the passport office where he found reasons to not apply. He ended up lying to me and at the last minute broke down crying that he "couldn't go" after everything was all paid for and arranged. At the time I thought it was pressure from his mother but it undoubtedly was just a combination of not wanting to go and not wanting to disappoint me.

I'm rather certain that he indulges me in Sunday supper because he knows it's important to me but doesn't really care one way or the other. He wasn't put out at all when I didn't do it when I got back from my trip.

I've also invited him along to family reunions, the recent wedding of his cousin and he was relieved each time when he didn't have to go. He just doesn't want to engage and never has, even from a young age with either side of his family. When he does encounter family, he's outgoing, charming and engages with them and they all think that he's a super great guy which he is in that moment. And he talks about these encounters positively. But won't make any effort to make them happen. I do worry on how, if he does ever end up in a relationship on how it will work out. He sounds a lot like the ex spouses that a number of us have had. Sad as it is for me to say. And I don't see him changing.

He's a lot like his mother although his mother did have a big focus on family gatherings - on her side only. Not because she ever wanted to go - the car was filled with complaints and drama in both directions each time - but because they were "must attend" events. I am sooo glad that I don't have that as part of my life any more.

He has been doing better since Sunday I think the brief times I've seen him. Whether he's dealing with his issues or just burying them, I don't know. I do know that he will actively refuse to talk to me. I've tried in the past and been abruptly shut down - usually angrily.

Most of you here have good and active relations with your children, both at home or distant. I don't. TBH - never really had with S25. I've always had a good relationship with D27 - my adventure buddy but S25 doesn't engage with either of his parents. Never really has although between the two of us, he was closer to his mother. Not that they would ever go out and "do things" together. Contrast that with D27 who even though we are 3 time zones apart, we usually touch base with each other in some fashion almost daily.

Reaching out to his mother for assistance in co-parenting is also a non-starter. I've said that I "wished" that she would do some. Her parenting style, which undoubtedly hasn't changed is to first demand that I deal with it, usually telling me to give some sort of ultimatum or to scream at the child until they dissolve in to tears. I'm as unlikely to be able to co-parent any more than Irish, Dnj or others. There are good historical reasons why we stopped at 2 kids even though the original plan had been 4 and the only reason we had 2 was that I was seduced / pressured in to it. After our daughter was born and I saw how her mother was with small unreasonable bundles, I knew that more kids weren't a good idea.

Sad as it is to say, living with him in the house is very like having his mother still around. Walking on eggshells, feeling like an appliance and taken advantage of. He's a bit more decent about it than she was but then she perhaps had a stronger basis for her sense of entitlement.

There will undoubtedly be some rare occasions when my ex and I will be in the same room for a short while. I'm confident that I will be polite and respect her rights as the mother. Since D27 very likely won't have kids and S25 is showing no sign of having any interest in even dating, such events are sure to be a long way off so I don't worry about them. I also expect that my ex is even more reluctant to interact with me than I am with her. I know the truth after all and she has actively avoided me for years now literally "burning rubber" one day when she accidentally spotted me in my own driveway on a rare occurrence when she was seeing S25.

I'm sorry if people think I'm being harsh here, but these "are" the facts on the ground and what I have to deal with. Generally, we ignore each other and he actively avoids me I believe. He does know that I do love him and wish for him to become what he could be and I do like to think that he's as uncomfortable as I am if not more so with our current arrangement. I just have to tough it out, be the solid and sane parent which is mother certainly doesn't seem to be, and hope that it all turns out for the best.

-------------------

A bit of an odd occurrence yesterday. I texted S25 that I was going to be late getting home. When I got home he wasn't here but his car was in the drive. When I checked his room for dirty dishes there was a mild smell from his pot pipe. No clue where he was and TBH it is none of my business, but oddly, someone was in my bedroom pushing buttons on my CPAP machine. I continue to believe that his mother comes through when it is known that I'm not here but again - that could just be paranoia. He got home around midnight, banged around the house for a while and I probably won't see him until this afternoon as usual. If a snoop around my room was had there's nothing to see except for an unopened box of condoms that I had picked up before my trip even though I had no expectation of needing them. That and a bit of dust.

------------------

I had dinner last night with an old colleague who split from his wife early this year. He's doing well. He got his settlement sorted out, paid her a "huge" whack of cash and bought her out of the house. She's been physically moved out for a couple of weeks. They've both been actively dating even though the divorce can't happen until March. He did get confirmation that she had been cheating on him from right around when he noticed his marriage take a turn for the worse. She's also told him that since she started dating that she has nearly been raped and has also contracted an STD. He shakes his head at this behaviour since to him, like many of us, it is so out of character to the woman he thought he was married to. He seems to be doing very well though and has really detached quite thoroughly I think from both his STBX and her consequences.

My friend is 49, about 6' 2" and has been doing cross-fit and is to within 1 pound of where he was when he got married 20+ years ago. He's also a director level executive with a software company based out of Manhattan although he lives locally. A decent enough guy. I consider him a friend even if not a close friend. We've known each other for at least 20 years and used to work together where I was a mentor to him. I did caution him a long time ago that he was prime meat on the hoof out there and sure enough, he is. While in Manhattan, he got on Tinder at the prompting of his buddies and promptly ended up with a fashion designer of lingerie who on the second date tried to hit him up for $150K to "help her get some of her designs from France". He's also had at least a few one night stands. I cautioned him again last night to take time, figure out who he is before he puts himself out there. He agrees but I suspect finds it hard given the sudden supply of welcoming arms, legs, whatever that he is finding.

I will admit that I'm not jealous of him at all. His choices aren't my choices. We were talking about our various settlements and he did a lump sum payment of probably 3 times what I will pay in total. His mortgage payment is 4 times what mine is and he's got his 2 girls living with him and attending college so his daily expenses are undoubtedly much higher. He makes more money sure - a quite a bit more in fact so he's undoubtedly fine that way. But then again, so am I.

---------------

In other news, S and I have a date tentatively planned for Saturday afternoon. I just noticed that a major festival is happening this weekend about 1/2hr drive away including large vegetables - we'll probably go there. It's her kid-free weekend (I think she does alternate weekends) and she mentioned that she won't have to work at her job - so she's got one of those. I did actually know of at least one of her side hustles. I think that her comment about living off of child support might have been a test, or just a reference to how she feeds and clothes the kids. It should be fun and I'm looking forward to it.

I heard yesterday that my new car is very likely here in Canada and not in Japan and should be delivered in a couple of weeks. It was nice to have S to message about my excitement about that. I also heard from my boss - who I don't care for - late yesterday that he is finally retiring. He seemed pleased with my honest surprise at the announcement (I've been expecting it for a year) and at my good wishes for his future. The reporting structure has shifted as he's not being replaced (the company is a "lot" smaller since the reorg and I'm reporting up a couple of levels to the COO as of the end of the month. I talked to my colleague who has a similar role to me and he thinks we're being shifted to be sacrificed next, but I look at it as a positive thing. I've worked with COO directly for a lot of years from when he was a mid-level manager and have always had positive and supportive interactions.

Well - enough for now. Thanks for visiting me on Mulberry Street. You do never know what you'll see there.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: I Saw It on Mulberry Street [Re: AndrewP] #2867098
10/02/19 06:46 PM
10/02/19 06:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,714
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doodler Offline
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Originally Posted by AndrewP
I just noticed that a major festival is happening this weekend about 1/2hr drive away including large vegetables...


Andrew,

This is a follow-on question similar to the previous question about the airspeed velocity of an unladen sparrow. How long would the drive to the festival be if it didn't include large vegetables?

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