Gerda Rises Up to Go On

[DnJ]

Good Morning Gerda

I see two primary fronts in this situation; and yes the word “fronts” is use on purpose - things are starting off like a battle and your goal and vision needs to look towards the entire war (i.e. finding a way to accept it and end it).

First and most important and immediate is the rebellious nature of S14. Teenagers do rebel against authority, which is usually their parents. It can also press towards school (skipping class), society (pushing the boundaries of proper expected behaviours, among other things), police, religion, etc... It can be maddeningly overwhelming for a parent, as a young person is finding themselves.

The direct authoritarian approach will not work effectively; it is the very thing they are rebelling against. So, the soft approach and knowing which battles to pick. The ability to let go that which you cannot change and the strengthen to affect and influence what you can - and the wisdom to know which is which.

Thankfully this is normal for a teenager. Yes, there is a spectrum and some are more trying than others. I would like to add the obvious comparison of our MLCer’s behaviour to the rebellious teenager; although their’s is cranked up to 11 or maybe 47 is your H’s case.

My first thoughts were akin to job’s suggestion. I think it is an good idea for the kids to visit their grandparents. And coupling that visit to their resultant attendance and effort in school would be beneficial on a few “fronts”. Grades, behaviour, respect (of self and towards you), and so on. This requires buy in from S14. Requires him to choose to want to do it.

This is not bribery, you are appealing to his intellect and values, helping him see reason and gain wisdom. Hopefully he will choose well. This takes time and consistent effort from both parties as new habits are formed.

He can rebel against you, however disrespectful behaviour should not be tolerated. Seeing which is which, and acting on it takes a serious command of one’s inner convictions and strength. Truly, love and compassion is not always easy.

This brings up MIL’s disrespectful attitude towards you. Boundaries my dear Gerda. Until now, ignoring her has worked. However, she has reached around and passed you, directly to you children, and disrespectfully. Maybe not intentionally, however that matters little.

MIL’s intentions may be honourable and good; she needs to discuss them with the custodial parent!!! She cannot make arrangements with a 10 and 14 year old, send plane tickets, and expect you to just shut it and stand aside. No way!

I am not privy to the wording of your’s and H’s custody arrangement. In mine it stated D15 and S17 were old enough to decide whom they wished to live with, and could change their decision, and who ever they were living with would have primary custody. A pretty fear inducing document when one is recovering from all that happen with BD. Discussions with my children, open honest discussions, ones that exposed “all” possibilities were had. That needs to happen. Children will, and are already thinking these scenarios - lose, ignore, push aside, whatever it takes - lose the fear and talk with them.

I let me children read the actual separation document. It affects them greatly as well as me. I think most times that document is stored away, and hidden - from them and therefore in effect from us. Them seeing it, holding it, reading the actual words has such power. The smell, the feel, the authenticity of an official document makes the situation real and pushes back denial. Kids also need to work through denial and see accurately. They are affected, ensure they have the tools to affect themselves and grow from this.

That earns respect, trust, and builds are strong relationship between you and child.

MIL requires discussions between the her and you as well. You need to clear up some of her attitude and set some boundaries. First is respecting you. If she won’t even talk to you, thinks that poorly you - well there is some work to be done there. Sorry about that, but it’s probably going to fall upon you to make the first few moves.

This is me assuming that she is someone of whom you want in your’s and your kids’ lives. Is she an alright person? When answering this look deep inside yourself and keep your hurt ego out of it - see her for who she is - her faults and her good. You’ve said she and you had years of visits and good times, her blow up and accusations of you and H being too liberal and such is her irrational side taking hold. Unfortunately, I am pretty sure she beliefs a lot of it. That will take effort and time for you to demonstrate it’s non authenticity and bring the falsehood she believes to light. And she needs to choose her path.

On a hopeful note, and you know me and positive hopeful possibilities, MIL did and is reaching out. Start with that. She has a desire to connect. Yeah it’s to the children, but it will have to be to you as well with you boundary based ideals on this. You will have golden opportunities to show her who you are and can be. I see hope here, not despair.

I started this with “fronts”. This best way to win the war is not to battle it head on. It’s not even to win them over to your side. There is no sides, no “fronts”, no hills need be died upon. It is all relationships, find respect and trust, and the win-win that exists. That is not a comprise by the way. Each person has wins they want, and there is a solution in where everyone can achieve their win. And it is amazing what a win actually looks like to someone else. What they are fighting for, is usually not what you think.

As usually I am happy to discuss this, or any topic, further. I would definitely start with S14 and D10, they are the important people. Talk openly and let them read that hidden document that has so disrupted their lives.

DnJ

[job]

Gerda,

I do not see any issue w/staying in the same city where the in-laws live. I'm sure the city is big enough that you could stay at one end of it while the in-laws are at the other end. Nothing says you have to stay there the entire time. You could stay there one night, maybe two and then move on to another area w/some activities for the children. If you stay several hours away, now that, to me, looks like you are trying to be difficult and do not really want the visit to take place.

As for my thoughts on what your MIL did, I didn't state, not once, to ignore what she did. I don't know where you got that idea that I would say to ignore what she did, but you shouldn't "assume" as to what I am thinking. I was hoping that you would come up w/solution and then bounce it off of the posters for tweaking and/or suggestions.

Gerda, I have a question I want you to think about it. Why do you have such a difficult time communicating w/family members? You have no problem communicating here, on the Forum, and you give great advice. I'm just trying to understand why the people you communicate with, that are directly involved w/ you IRL, have a difficult time understanding what you are attempting to get across to them and/or they get bent out of shape w/your missives. Do you think you come across too harsh/blunt/tone or you go into lengthy explanations and people don't want to hear those lengthy missives?

I am trying to understand what is going on in the communications arena because it appears that you have some issues communicating w/your h, the MIL and sometimes even in dealing w/the children. Maybe it's time to take a look at some of your previous communication missives and try a different approach as to how you write them in the future. When you can't get through to them one way, try a different approach.

[Gerda]

Hallo, Westo!!! So happy to see you here! I think we were on line at the same time yesterday so I didn't see your post until today. I love to hear your thoughts.

All sound analysis and good advice. I don't think I thought of actually staying near them on purpose; they live in a pretty small city, really it's more of a town, so I thought it would be really weird to stay near them when for the kids' entire lives we have stayed at their house. I also worried that H would see me as being manipulative or controlling but I guess at this point it really doesn't matter what he thinks!

....I don’t know how you haven’t cracked up by now.

How do you know I haven't? : )

It's not that I think God is doing any of this, but I do trust that God works all things for the Good, and I keep trying to see meaning and beauty in all parts of my life, and to know that I must be part of something bigger. I did realize last year that I had to get H out before I did crack up, I think I was getting close, and S14 was too. I keep reminding myself that the most important things happened -- I got custody and I got H out of the house. If I stay in the moment, without fearing the future, I feel pretty good about who I am and hopeful about what I could be.

XO to you.

[Gerda]

This brings up MIL’s disrespectful attitude towards you. Boundaries my dear Gerda. Until now, ignoring her has worked. However, she has reached around and passed you, directly to you children, and disrespectfully. Maybe not intentionally, however that matters little.

Oh, it was VERY intentional! It's exactly what she said she wanted way back in June, she just finally managed to get a word in to S14 to do it!

But can you give me one of your scripts? What can I say to her that I haven't already tried? I feel like I have tried it all.

MIL’s intentions may be honourable and good; she needs to discuss them with the custodial parent!!! She cannot make arrangements with a 10 and 14 year old, send plane tickets, and expect you to just shut it and stand aside. No way!
....

MIL requires discussions between the her and you as well. You need to clear up some of her attitude and set some boundaries. First is respecting you. If she won’t even talk to you, thinks that poorly you - well there is some work to be done there. Sorry about that, but it’s probably going to fall upon you to make the first few moves.

Now this all sounds very sound but I think I have said it. And nothing has sunk in. To some degree, isn't the same surrender required here as with the MLC spouse? Why do you think I will be able to get any respect from her, and why should I even try? Isn't it just about the boundary and sticking to it? And Job in her last post also is suggesting that I am not communicating properly. But this is MIL, the woman who caused half the childhood trauma that led to H's MLC! I loved her all these years, but she is a very hard and hard-headed woman! She is extremely bossy and was always criticizing me all these years. Sometimes it bothered me, other times I shrugged it off or even laughed about it, but when I felt insecure I also did try always to justify myself or work harder to make her think well of me -- e.g., get my house in perfect order so she couldn't criticize it and then she would criticize it anyway. But I just have always felt that family is family and that you have to try to accept them as they are. But certainly NOTHING I say or do will convince her of anything, just as nothing I say or do will convince H of anything.

In fact, Job, if you are reading along, I don't actually understand how you are thinking this is about my ability to communicate. Isn't the whole point about MLC that we can't get through to them? I think I communicate quite well in general in the world and in fact most of my work relies on my ability to do that; but no, I am not able to communicate anything or get any clarity with H or, in the last couple of years when he started speaking against me to his mom, to her either. I totally gave up trying. I don't see this as having anything to do with me. If anything, I think I tried to communicate for far too long, and it's only now that I am cutting off contact that I am able to see things more clearly. The reason I reached out with this latest incident is that I have really been loving the no contact as a way to heal, and I don't want to leap back into any dynamic where I am trying to explain or justify anything. No contact is a much easier boundary than partial communication!

This is me assuming that she is someone of whom you want in your’s and your kids’ lives. Is she an alright person?

No, she is not a very good person, at least not anymore. I am not sure if she changed a lot too, but she chose to abandon her grandkids because it was too painful for her to watch our family dissolve. She was a great grandma when the kids were young. She has become angrier and angrier and more and more racist and hateful as she ages. But in person and in e-mail we were still able to have nice times, go to church together, cook or trade recipes, etc. And she is our family, so I just wanted to keep her in the kids' lives.

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure she beliefs a lot of it. That will take effort and time for you to demonstrate it’s non authenticity and bring the falsehood she believes to light. And she needs to choose her path.

Not sure anything I do can change that, just like with H. Even the most loving and well-intentioned action/word on my part is misinterpreted generally. But yes, I will keep trying to just be a light, even if MIL can't see it.

On a hopeful note, and you know me and positive hopeful possibilities, MIL did and is reaching out. Start with that. She has a desire to connect. Yeah it’s to the children, but it will have to be to you as well with you boundary based ideals on this. You will have golden opportunities to show her who you are and can be. I see hope here, not despair.

OK, I will try to see it that way. I did get so excited when she sent me the presents, but I think even my thanking her annoyed her and set her off again.

Oh, if you and I could just sit across from each other at a table, what discussions we would have.

Clearly -- and it would be so much easier than trying to type all this out, realizing all that I forgot and all that wasn't clear, editing, adding, still leaving too much out and leaving too much in and then feeling guilty for not getting any work done! Much easier to just talk it out and eat some naiiimoooooonnooomeeemooo bars.

Sorry, straying into a theology discussion. Possibilities - this is me. There are many. And at my core, I love possibilities - it’s where hope lives.

For what it’s worth, I believe in God’s will and free will. Putting H in God’s hands is a very good path to take.

Well I love theology discussions. The problem is only that I have to figure out this practical response to MIL and that need is siphoning out the time/energy to have a really good one! I will put off my answer for the next post.

As usually I am happy to discuss this, or any topic, further. I would definitely start with S14 and D10, they are the important people. Talk openly and let them read that hidden document that has so disrupted their lives.

This is a great idea, and I am gonna do it. I think it might be super upsetting to see it all in print-- it gives even me a heart attack to look at it. But I think you are right, the more knowledge they have, if I give it to them gently, the more power.

Thank you, as usual, DnJ, you always give me so much to think about!

[Gerda]

You are a deep thinker, Gerda. I enjoy chewing on your updates. Lots to consider.

Thank you so much for the compliment. Yeah, I am nothing if not deep! Shallow would be easier for sure.

I'm in the process of catching up on DnJ's old threads and yours are next on my list.

Oh lord, poor you! My old threads, ugh, what a long journey through a swamp. But hopefully a good read. : )

[job]

Gerda,

Circling back to my last posting, I didn't mention your communication skills w/your h. I was referring to people in general, for example, your in-laws, your lawyer and at times w/me. I post to you because I care about you. You read my postings and then respond to my postings referencing things that I did not mention. I don't know if it's because I have touched a nerve and you want to go in another direction by referencing things that I didn't mention or you want me to go into explanation mode, but I'm going to be more direct w/you from now on and hopefully you can then relax a bit and not "assume" something that I wasn't referencing. So here is my direct response to you for today:

I can understand why your MIL basically "abandoned" your children. Many of the in-laws do this when their child leaves a marriage, i.e., MLC marriage mostly. Blood is always thicker than water and no matter what we way or do, they will generally take the side of their adult child. Your MIL doesn't understand why things have gotten so out of hand in the marriage and for all you know, they are disappointed in their son and what has happened to your family.

I'm not making excuses for her, but there are two sides to every coin and I sense that this woman misses seeing her grandkids and would dearly love to see them. I do not know how old she is, but her health may not be the best or maybe she wants to confirm to herself that they are okay. After all, she may have been hearing rubbish from her son for quite some time and wants to see the children for herself.

I would send a missive to her and here is something you may want to think about writing: "MIL, son's name, has told me that you had a nice chat w/him and suggested that he and his sister come to visit you in Florida. That is a wonderful idea, however, in the future, I ask that you please discuss trip suggestions w/me first before mentioning anything to my son or his sister, as I am the one that would need to decide when a trip may be possible. I also ask that you not discuss w/him or his sister what is taking place between your son and myself, as they are children and should not be involved in adult matters. If I can manage a trip for them this year, I will let you know our travel arrangements far enough in advance so that you can prepare for their visit. Happy Holidays!"

Keep your missive on point, i.e., the visit and gently advise her that she needs to work through you.

Gerda, I sense that instead of speaking up and pointing out her behavior to her at the time she was being critical of you, may have given her the impression that you are a mouse and she can walk all over you. In other words, she is a bully in sheep's clothing. Maybe the way to get her respect is to start speaking up and telling her want from her. You don't need to come up with excuses or explanations, just state the facts, i.e., like a business deal and let the dust fall wherever it needs to fall. She needs to see the Gerda that we see here on this Forum, the woman who can write, gives good advice and shows compassion to others. Stating what you want from her in the future may not do anything to change the dynamics, but unless you try something different, you will always be a mouse who avoids contact w/others and she will continue doing what she does best...being manipulative and attempting to go around you at every turn. .

Gerda, you can do this. She has opened the door for communication, now it is time to show her the new and improved Gerda.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Gerda

I like that you are looking into yourself; communication styles and such. And how open you are to listening and accepting suggestions.

Growth hurts. As we push out of a comfortable place and look to our less effective traits it can sting. That is a good signpost that one is on a worthwhile path.

To some degree, isn't the same surrender required here as with the MLC spouse? Why do you think I will be able to get any respect from her, and why should I even try? Isn't it just about the boundary and sticking to it?

A degree of surrender is required in many (maybe even all) situations when dealing with others. However, surrender may not be what you think.

It is control, and what and who you can control, and what and who you cannot. Surrender is not “I can’t control them, so they get to do whatever they want”. Surrender is “I can’t control them. I respect their right to choose. And I respect and exercise my right to choose”.

Why do I think you will be able to get any respect from MIL? Because you are worthy of respect.

A few thing on this point. Respect is earned, not giving. People will treat you as you let them, and respect you as you let them. You can see how boundaries get tied into this as well, in the way you allow treatment towards you.

Also one’s self respect and integrity must be present and strong. Other people will see it, will sense it, or the lack of it, and almost unconsciously behave accordingly.

Boundaries are for you. They are for one’s healing and preventing further determent to one’s emotional self. Not to be confused with a response to someone.

At first boundaries and responses appear very similar, and indeed they are in affect. The difference is the premeditation of conviction of which you will be following. A boundary is a wall from unwanted attack. It is your predetermined action that you will take when certain stimulus happens. A key component of a boundary is communicating it to the other party. That doesn’t necessarily mean with words, although that is the usual; a consistent application of a boundary to a specific stimulus will get the message across as well, just less efficiently. Effectiveness however only comes from the consistent actions.

A response can tap into one’s convictions as well. You can apply your values and worth in a response without “much” premeditation. It is just a response, and still in your control. The big thing is you are not needing protection. You are not being repeatedly attacked. It’s just a response without the wall.

For me, my boundaries are like my indifference - with compassion. Compassionate indifference. Compassionate boundaries.

The more one heals the more one can bring the wall of their boundaries down. Remember the difference between boundary and response - it’s from within you. The effect is almost the same, it’s the source that is modified.

Boundaries really start as a mechanism to build our shattered self respect. To realize our worth and stand back up. Once healed boundaries become belief. One knows, feels, and believes in their worth and value; and no one can take that away!

Isn’t it just about boundaries and sticking to it? Yes, for a while.

Once you are strong, stable, secure, healed that wall is not the same wall anymore. I really hope I am getting the idea of the importance of compassion here. As you heal, that wall becomes a more permanent fixture in your life.

At first it may be built with hurt, anger, and vengeance; the wall being a much needed defence against attack. As you progress choose better not bitter, and rebuild that preliminary wall, that starter boundary. This is all part of finding, altering, strengthening, and following one’s beliefs. Build with you in mind, both for now and for the wanted future. Compassion always seemed to be one of the good materials to rebuild my life with - it is very strong and flexible.

In the specific case of your MIL, you can let the wall down a bit and see what happens. She hasn’t been slamming against a boundary for quite some time, and you are well healed to have a self-controlled conversation with her.

Not sure anything I do can change that, just like with H. Even the most loving and well-intentioned action/word on my part is misinterpreted generally. But yes, I will keep trying to just be a light, even if MIL can't see it.

Be a light. Not try. Be the light. Believe it.

To be clear nothing you do can change MIL, just like H. Nothing and everything matters.

MIL, only she change herself. You can influence. And your influence affects her, and more importantly it affects you and your kids.

... can you give me one of your scripts? What can I say to her that I haven't already tried?

I really like the letter job has suggested.

Your first few communications with MIL are going to be mostly one way, I’m guessing. The letter is short, stays on point, is friendly, opens the door, and places the ball in her court. A very good example of the soft gentle approach. You can only control you. It would then be up to MIL to respond properly as requested. Depending on what happens a follow up may be required - responses or boundaries - it depends on MIL a little bit.

I think I’ll pause here. My kids are rising from their slumber.

I hope you are having a good day.

DnJ

[Gerda]

Friends, in addition to venting about the MIL, I really was just asking what kinds of strategies, scenarios/rules people have about visitation with in-laws, and if it was more strategic to try to work something out with her myself rather than tell her to work it out during H's time with the kids when I would have even less ability to protect. I figured that some folks on here would have some experience with that. I know Hamburg and SBJ have a good relationship with in-laws, jealous of that!

Until MIL's letter last summer, I thought we'd just go on as we have been for the past six years, where I usually took the kids to see the in-laws without H. I knew it would be more awkward post divorce but I also know it's the only way MIL will ever see S14 and I planned to keep my relationship with MIL friendly as it always was even after we stopped being close post BD. I had one aunt who stayed in our family after divorcing my uncle; they would just both be there on holidays.

Job, your example of a letter was really helpful. Thank you!

And Job and DnJ and whomever else, I appreciate the intention behind your 2 x 4's. It was interesting to notice how your perception of me affected my mood! I went through the seven stages of grief, I think! : ) I think it's really hard to really show our real selves here, but I don't think I realized how much. Definitely the self I show here is my most weak and fearful self -- I mostly come here when I am sniveling. People who know me IRL would be shocked to meet that side of me. I am considered an extremely tough and fearless lady IRL, often to the point of being intimidating. One of my jobs is in a men's prison! So your comments about me being a mouse, etc., actually made me laugh at first. But it is true that H and MIL trigger me and I regress big time, back to the girl with the MLC mom. In the book I am reading about surviving narcissistic abuse, the author writes about a "white-hot" fear of being in trouble, etc. I definitely get that visceral response with H and MIL. In fact, H texted me today to remind me that the court "commanded" me to pay him before midnight and my whole body lit up with fear when I saw it, before I talked myself down from that bodily response. So it's definitely a wound I need to heal and I will think about what you said a lot on that journey. Thank you for all the time and care you took in replying to me!

I would still love to hear how some other folks are handling the visitation with the in-laws.

[Gerda]

And DnJ, you as usual have so many multi-layered comments/ideas/suggestions that it will take me a while to chew on 'em. THANK YOU!

[Gerda]

KmL, I think you are a nurse? I always see you post about medical things, and I have a question for you and maybe Hamburg and anyone else reading this who knows about stuff like this!

I have been thinking a lot about the last 25 years of my life with H, especially because I am reading these books on surviving narcissistic abuse. The incredible thing is that yesterday my brother told me that he had been diagnosed with NPD as a teen! I knew he was troubled, he was in the psych ward, did a lot of drugs, there was a lot of violence and craziness at home, etc. While reading these books, I keep thinking about how I was so familiar with cluster B because of my mother and to some degree my dad and thinking that I may have been attracted to that in H even thought what I thought was that he was the opposite of my family and anything I had known as a child! But my brother telling me that BLEW my mind. I grew up just surrounded by that, and I was known in all the extended family as the sane, clear one, the peacemaker, the one who could carry the whole family on her shoulders and fix everyone's problems. My mother was definitely cluster B, she was totally mad and definitely had an MLC at the exact same year of her marriage as H did in mine. But now realizing that about my brother! Wow. And now looking back at intimations of H's cluster B or NPD or whatever he is throughout our M, and all the light pretzeling I did all these years, and the in-and-out debt, etc., I can't deny that this is not just MLC. I think my H was battling it all our marriage, and finally at the triggers of midlife, he couldn't do it anymore and it was unleashed at full force.

My question for you, KmL -- H's triggers were massive financial strain, our business on the edge of collapse and all that we had built threatened with crumbling -- and then he started sh*tting blood and thought he had cancer. He began training for a marathon and started running 10-20 miles per day and eating no carbs and taking magnesium citrate. He lost around 80 pounds and stopped sh*tting blood but I am sure you are aware of the effects of the magnesium citrate. He felt he was being healed, I felt like he had an eating disorder, but the MLC was in full swing by then. At one point he told a friend of mine who had emergency colon surgery about the wonders of magnesium citrate and the dosage he was taking and she contacted me because he was taking 2-5 times the recommended dose and was taking it EVERYDAY. And sometimes H would have these episodes while running where he became faint and would have to lie down on the running path. He thought it was dehydration and didn't connect it with the mag citrate. My friend did research on mag citrate and found stories of people who had literally gone crazy from taking too much of that. Her doc had given her extremely grave warnings about using it very judiciously and only a couple of times when she was undergoing treatment. She was convinced that H's insanity was caused by the magnesium citrate. I told her it was a lot more complicated than that but I started tracking his use and saw that he would go through a bottle with 50 doses in maybe 10 days. I became really alarmed and shared the research with him. You can predict how that went over.

I know that there is a lot going on with H, many layers of mental health issues, trauma and physical issues. And my faith gives me another kind of take as well. But I wonder what your take is on the mag citrate and the physiological side of the story. He is still taking it at the same levels, I am sure. He is also an alcoholic and is juuling. I know there is nothing I can do it about this but for my own clarity I wondered about your take on that supplement in the context I have explained.

XO from Gerda