Junior Member An uninspiring title that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of my current state. This is very difficult to write because there is so much to write about.
Current status: Wife and I have are doing a live-in separation. Me 43, she 42 with 2 boys ages 10 and 12.
History: Acquaintances in high school, connected during college, dating after college. Lived together for a year before she moved out to buy her own home. Remained friends, eventually dating again, and several years later, married. We moved away from family and friends in 2009 (me following work). About a year later, we're struggling. Found draft text to an ex-bf (with whom she had an abortion with in college) with her in just bra and panties bragging about her 35-year old body. Later accidentally found out that while back in our home state she went out to dinner with an ex-fiance. Weeks later, she's contacted an attorney and sold her wedding band. Few months later and she indicates that she's here to stay, committed to working on the marriage and will not divorce me.
Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.
Recent history - last 6 months: early part of 2019 characterized by me being isolated and withdrawn, frozen and unable to discuss problems I am having with her behavior or my personal issues (working with IC) or my feelings within the marriage. I initiate marriage counseling in March/April. No romantic intimacy since late 2018; sporadic "I love you's" and kissing/hugging through May.
Father's Day this year she informs me that she wants to separate following an instance the night before where, again, I don't handle my 10 year old's behavior well, including raising my voice and her stepping in but me not walking away (consistent theme the last 2 years). We agree to hold off telling our boys until after our summer trip to home state in July. Sleep in same bed, doing family activities, etc. No hugging, kissing. Doing MC with talk about possible reconciliation and the marriage counselor summarizing that my wife just doesn't have any emotional trust, that my wife can't be vulnerable with me and won't be without that trust. While on vacation back in our home state, she did indicate that she hoped that we could work this out and even thanked me for the kindness I was showing to her (her sisters are in rough relationships and she was contrasting me to their spouses).
Early August, discover huge volume of texting between wife and family friend's husband, ie., hours per day. We're still in counseling. 2x in one week, we have appointments and both time we talk about this "friendship". Day after second appointment, discover I love you text to him along with another text expressing that she cant wait to take showers with him after their runs. I immediately confront both of them, very tumultuous evening at home as I try to explain to kids what's happening. Understand now that what she explained in those 2 sessions was just a lie. Both claim to have just developed feelings for each other. HIs wife is battling alcoholism and between me and her, they started leaning on each other very heavily as they confided in each other about the state of their marriages. Odd thing is that the week before I found these two texts to him, she was actively assisting him with finding treatment centers for his wife and understanding what their insurance would cover. Concurrently, she is telling me through March, April into July and August that she's hoping they repair their marriage. In fact, a week before finding the texts, we were both visiting him the night before his wife left for a treatment center intake session and my wife would later remark two different times how excited and happy he was when explaining how he came home from work the night before and his wife had not been drinking (and he was).
She went no contact and notified several of her friends about an inappropriate relationship. I believe that her father and his wife knows and perhaps one of her sisters. Recently, there has been some low-level contact with him that I know of as their children and our visit each other's households on a daily basis. I think there's more, but it's through email and hidden. I did see an email exchange where she indicated that she would like updates on their family and he replied wanting the same and after having asked my wife when it was safe to email my wife explained any time and that she would handle whatever problem I had with it with me.
She has been writing a lot, including a letter to me indicating that she doesn't want to married to me and that I should continue changing to ensure that I am a good father to our children. I have seen some of her writing wherein she expresses a lot of hurt and frustration that she has to give up some a great friendship with him and for wrecking the relationship between our families (families were very close with similar-aged children, family outings, and camping trips together). She's angry that while she's losing some of her friends due to this relationship, he doesn't seem to be.
Currently, my wife has zero interest in working on the marriage. Period. She has indicated that she would like to work a divorce through a mediator and has explained that her resentment toward me grows as I resist the divorce and she feels that I will force a very difficult and adversarial divorce process. She has explained that she has suffered too long in this marriage and wants the chance to be happy by herself or with someone else. She describes our relationship, in part, as abusive, but also that she has felt unsafe and uncared for.
She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns. She firmly believes that she cannot trust that the changes I am making can be or will be lasting and will not put herself into a vulnerable position to be hurt again.
This past weekend, we talked again about mediation. She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons. She and I both have divorced parents, though very different experiences. Whereas my father became highly introverted and didn't even date much, my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years. My wife, otoh, her mother and father remained very cordial seeing one another at family events and interacting positively. They both went on to marry others and have successful relationships. I simply explained that I want a different marriage with her that is loving, joyful, intimate, and caring and that I think what's best for our children is having two loving parents in a loving, intimate marriage. She can't get herself on board with that.
My wife's emotional affair is a result of me leaving a huge, gaping emotional hole open and she intentionally allowed another man to fill it. She also believes that I could never forgive her for that which is another reason not to try to repair the marriage. Further, she has expressed, in moments of anger or emotional stress, that my resistance to divorce just means that I am holding her hostage.
I truly do love my wife. I am working on myself and making permanent changes (though, I could always have a relapse, I am far more conscious and present with my emotions). This live-in separation is a killer.
There are so many other details and bits and pieces, but I think I have exhausted myself typing this much out at this moment.
I would love some insight, advice, tough love, etc. I have broken my marriage, but while my wife is ready to divorce, I am not.
Last edited by Cadet; 09/18/1904:35 PM. Reason: remove links
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
There are some relatively blameless people here. I’m not one of them. I’m sorry you’re here. Owning mistakes is a great first step towards doing better in the future. It sounds like you’ve decided anger and depression don’t suit you, and maybe are ready to make permanent changes.
1. The timeline is unclear. What year did you get together.. and get married? When did the anger and depression begin? Were there good periods before things became rocky in 2009?
2. I didn’t see the below in your story. When and how often did she threaten to leave? What did you try to make permanent changes? Why do you feel they didn’t stick?
Originally Posted by “Det”
She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns
3. When you relate this story, are you or her OM as more likely to verbally abuse your kids? I get you never physically abuse your kids, despite a physically abusive parental figure.
Originally Posted by “Det”
She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons.. my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years.
Married in 2003. First started dating in 1998; lived together in 1999; she bought a house and we're not together 2000-2001; reconnected in 2002; married 2003.
Anger present through adolescent year and into adulthood. Likely depressed throughout entire marriage and possibly even before, just manifested itself as anger. Got some anger management training and counseling and shifted from anger to isolation and withdrawing, not being present and catastrophizing low-level things.
She wanted to divorce in 2010; asked me to leave a few times between then and now, but I wouldn't give up in the marriage.
I sought individual counseling with a social worker. Did that consistently in 2010 and 2011 and that's when wife recommitted to the marriage. I would then back off IC, relapse into my behavior pattern and then restart counseling, get better, stop going. Wash, rinse, repeat. I would think I was good and stop going, but inevitably relapse.
I suppose that she would think I am more likely to verbally abuse our children.
2003 married. Got together in 1998 and 1999, lived together in 2000, but wife not happy and moved out to buy her own home. Back together in 2001-2002.
There were really good times and really bad times. It's been a tough marriage for her given my behaviors even before 2009.
Anger present since teen years. Learned recently that likely the anger was an expression of depression. The depression manifesting itself as anger and recently as isolation and withdrawal.
She wanted a divorce in 2010, but recommitted once I started doing IC and was making rapid improvements. Between 2010 and now there have been at least three instances where she indicated she wasn't happy and wanted to separate.
I tried IC and anger management work to deal with me. Steady attendance early on but as I progressed would go longer between appointments until I would stop going thinking I'm fine, but would then revert to angry outbursts and then passive aggressive withdrawal and isolation. I mean, I'd lose my [censored] and then mentally kill myself and then believe why would anyone want me around and so would isolate and withdraw.
Crushes me to say, she likely believes that I am more likely than the OM to verbally abuse our children.
DD, have you sought out help for the anger issues? Sounds like it's been a serious problem for a long time, do try to get into counseling for that, it's not something you can fix on your own. She's been living with it a long time and is done with it now. All you can do is step back and give her time and space while you work on your issues. At first she will think you're just doing it as tricks to get her back so it's important to be consistent over a long period of time. One of our long-time posters here used to say 180's + time = change she can believe in. Please understand there are no quick fixes, you've got to have a lot of patience.
Don't fight her on the D. If she's set on proceeding then let her. Don't do any of the work herself, your attitude should be "this isn't what I want but I understand it's what you want and I will not stand in your way." Don't do the work yourself but if she needs anything from you then provide it in a timely manner. If she wants to meet with a mediator then do so.
DD, have you sought out help for the anger issues? Sounds like it's been a serious problem for a long time, do try to get into counseling for that, it's not something you can fix on your own.
I have. Started several years ago with IC and then injected a specific anger management therapist. I was doing great and stopped attending because I thought, well, I'm doing great. Slowly, I relapsed. Would start up IC again, be doing well, and relapse. Over and over I did that and she rode that roller coaster.
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She's been living with it a long time and is done with it now. All you can do is step back and give her time and space while you work on your issues. At first she will think you're just doing it as tricks to get her back so it's important to be consistent over a long period of time. One of our long-time posters here used to say 180's + time = change she can believe in. Please understand there are no quick fixes, you've got to have a lot of patience.
Yeah, I have acknowledged to her that I understand that she's been on this roller coaster, this merry-go-round for years. She's lost hope and doesn't trust that what I have been doing is real and can be long-lasting. Rationally, I hear what she is saying and can understand why she feels and believes that.
Quote
Don't fight her on the D. If she's set on proceeding then let her. Don't do any of the work herself, your attitude should be "this isn't what I want but I understand it's what you want and I will not stand in your way." Don't do the work yourself but if she needs anything from you then provide it in a timely manner. If she wants to meet with a mediator then do so.
She hasn't or isn't likely to initiate divorce.
In July at a MC session (before I found her tests to the OM), I explained that I was engaging in radical acceptance that my wife wanted a separation and that she didn't trust the changes I was making. I explained that I simply accepted that if she wanted a divorce, then I knew that she would initiate that. The counselor saw a reaction in my wife and asked about it. My wife explained that she didn't think that was true, that she would initiate a divorce.
Two weekends ago, in the midst of a disagreement about moving furniture around to make room for her to sleep in the office we have, she left the conversation (after I came up with a compromise) only to come back and indicate that she wanted to move forward with a divorce and asked if I was interested in mediation. I again explained that I didn't want a divorce.
There are some relatively blameless people here. I’m not one of them. I’m sorry you’re here. Owning mistakes is a great first step towards doing better in the future. It sounds like you’ve decided anger and depression don’t suit you, and maybe are ready to make permanent changes.
1. The timeline is unclear. What year did you get together.. and get married? When did the anger and depression begin? Were there good periods before things became rocky in 2009?
2. I didn’t see the below in your story. When and how often did she threaten to leave? What did you try to make permanent changes? Why do you feel they didn’t stick?
Originally Posted by “Det”
She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns
3. When you relate this story, are you or her OM as more likely to verbally abuse your kids? I get you never physically abuse your kids, despite a physically abusive parental figure.
Originally Posted by “Det”
She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons.. my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years.
I didnt quote you above, so you may not have known that I replied.
Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.
DrDet, you have a huge opportunity here on several 180s that will turn your life (if not your MR) around. As a guy that sounded a lot like you, I can tell you that getting over the anger, the bitterness, and the resentment, and healing yourself can really make your world open up and allow you to reach your full potential. This is not a guarantee that it will save your marriage. Here is the thing, saving your marriage isn't up to you. It takes two to make a marriage, only one to get a divorce. So focus on what you can save: yourself.
Here is my advice as someone that has been through this almost exactly (go read my sitch):
1) Focus on 180ing on all of your poor behavior 2) Get out of MC.....get into (or stay in) IC (If your current IC isn't working out, switch! Do not settle for a mediocre IC) 3) GAL.....like a madman. Every minute you aren't spending with your kids you should be out being busy 4) Detach. You have to let her go to get her back (#3 works with that). She has essentially fired you as her husband, so let her see what it is like to not have you in that capacity anymore 5) STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYTHING. If your angry outbursts, road rage, getting upset at your own mistakes, yelling and aggressiveness, passive-aggressiveness is from the same place mine was, it stems from a need to control everyone and everything. And when that invariably can't happen, then you lash out things, including yourself. LET GO OF CONTROL. You can only control one person in this life....yourself
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
DrDet, you have a huge opportunity here on several 180s that will turn your life (if not your MR) around. As a guy that sounded a lot like you, I can tell you that getting over the anger, the bitterness, and the resentment, and healing yourself can really make your world open up and allow you to reach your full potential. This is not a guarantee that it will save your marriage. Here is the thing, saving your marriage isn't up to you. It takes two to make a marriage, only one to get a divorce. So focus on what you can save: yourself.
Here is my advice as someone that has been through this almost exactly (go read my sitch):
1) Focus on 180ing on all of your poor behavior 2) Get out of MC.....get into (or stay in) IC (If your current IC isn't working out, switch! Do not settle for a mediocre IC) 3) GAL.....like a madman. Every minute you aren't spending with your kids you should be out being busy 4) Detach. You have to let her go to get her back (#3 works with that). She has essentially fired you as her husband, so let her see what it is like to not have you in that capacity anymore 5) STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYTHING. If your angry outbursts, road rage, getting upset at your own mistakes, yelling and aggressiveness, passive-aggressiveness is from the same place mine was, it stems from a need to control everyone and everything. And when that invariably can't happen, then you lash out things, including yourself. LET GO OF CONTROL. You can only control one person in this life....yourself
Thanks for the encouraging words and advice.
What does 180ing my behavior mean?
We haven't done MC since I discovered the MC.
I'm working on GAL.
Detaching is so hard. I find myself so easily falling into helping her, interacting with her, etc. For example, her car needed to be looked at, so when she asked for a ride home after dropping off the car, I said, of course. And tonight, now that the car is ready, I was more than willing to take care of arranging payment for the work (we do have a joint acct) and give her a ride to pick up the car. When I get home for work, one of her friends is here and I fall into their conversation and when my wife mentioned, oh yeah, we are going to pick up the car, I simply said that your friend is here and we can do it later.
The angry outbursts, road rage...all gone. Over the last year or so, there's been little anger, but I shifted into withdrawing from the family and isolating myself under the pretense that she couldn't love because I couldn't do things like remodeling a home, fixing the car, or wasn't as talented as the OM.
