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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Uni. I wrote my furious response to the last few posts 5:30 am. This morning but ran out of time.† Much calmer now over your sich and your W's response about "winning her back"

IHC -

Thanks for the long (and impassioned!) response.

You describe well the frustration I feel. I loved this woman, I truly did, with all of my heart. Obviously now in retrospect I see the flaws that were always there, but people are flawed, and I think we had a fighting chance if we both worked at it.

We went through a major disruption in our lives, one that in retrospect may have been a poor choice (moving). I contributed to the failure of our MR, and so did she. Why we couldn't sit down and work through it will always be a mystery to me. We seemed to work well together for a long time. But such is the fickleness of the human heart I guess. She fell out of love, and once that happens, it's basically game over. The following year was just an opportunity for me to feed her narrative. When she was distant and I got upset -- emotional abuse. When she was distant and I respected her need for space -- I was distant. Some of her anger lashing out at me -- all of it, driven by the need to justify her escape. I thought at the time she was signaling me that she was unhappy but still in love, but I think she was done already. I hope that is a warning to other LBS's here, because I think I was mistaking limbo. Limbo was not about my W struggling with her decision to be in the MR. She was already done. Limbo was about my W struggling with how to exit the MR.

I told her during the conversation that I did try to win her back. But I felt like she built up walls around her heart, and no matter what I tried, those walls only got thicker.

Maybe I'm too much of a NG, and should have walked away myself a long time ago. I could have told her Monday that I still have romantic feelings for her, that I still see hope in working things out. But that would be a lie. I don't want divorce for my kids, but at this point I'm resigned to the fact it is the only workable decision. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't value me as a partner.

I wish she would have just told me she fell out of love a long time ago. I can accept that. I can't manufacture feelings. I know there are all kinds of programs touted for "winning your W back" - DB is one of them, but there are many others. None of these are fool-proof, and I imagine the success rate is low by the time we LBS's realize it and take action. Ultimately we can improve ourselves to a degree, but we also are who we are. Living under the microscope is a miserable way to live.

I know she is not being flippant. This is a massive decision. I broke her heart. She doesn't want to be with me. She is willing to go through the pain of divorce, specifically because she does not want to be my W. It hurts, and yet, I know long-term I will eventually find somebody else, if I want to. It won't be the same. We won't build a family together from scratch. Life will be messy. I'm pretty sure I will never give as much of myself to another person (and maybe that's a healthy thing). I'll need to process everything that happened, and why, and I imagine I'll never understand exactly what happened for us to reach this point.

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Journal ~

I find Iím waking up every day super depressed and then gradually I feel better throughout the day.

W wants to talk about the house and mortgage this weekend. Says she is stressed about us spending into our savings. I donít know what that means, but we are spending into our joint savings and I would agree we should move quickly. Iím also frustrated she has yet to get back working. She said she wasnít emotionally ready and I thought, ďIím lucky I didnít get fired in the last year going through this emotional nightmare.Ē

Iím really hurt right now. I know itís over and I donít want to be with her. But Iím hurt that she didnít just tell me. She was so cold and heartless the last year. So many blowup fights where I tried to fix things when really she was just full of resentment towards me. I would get emotional at times because of her distance and she turned this into a narrative of emotional abuse.

I went to the zoo with the kids yesterday. So many couples with their kids. The moms on their phones texting friends, the dads on their phones checking fantasy football. Barely watching their kids. And none of them going through this hell. I know I have my issues on anxiety and indecision. But I also know I make a great partner for someone who loves me back.

I need to make myself whole and right. This is going to be a rough year ahead settling this divorce.

Last edited by unchien; 10/07/19 05:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by unchien
Journal ~

I find Iím waking up every day super depressed and then gradually I feel better throughout the day.


Hey U. I'm sorry you are feeling so down. I know its little consolation but you're not alone. I feel the same. It's a struggle every day to put on my best face and push away the need to feel hurt.

Quote

W wants to talk about the house and mortgage this weekend. Says she is stressed about us spending into our savings. I donít know what that means, but we are spending into our joint savings and I would agree we should move quickly. Iím also frustrated she has yet to get back working. She said she wasnít emotionally ready and I thought, ďIím lucky I didnít get fired in the last year going through this emotional nightmare.Ē


Not trying to pile on in any way here, but far as I can see, there isn't much to talk about. The house will have to go - that's what I told my W too. It's also what caused my W to second guess herself. I'm not saying it will happen in your sit, but it's a big reality check.

Quote

Iím really hurt right now. I know itís over and I donít want to be with her. But Iím hurt that she didnít just tell me. She was so cold and heartless the last year. So many blowup fights where I tried to fix things when really she was just full of resentment towards me. I would get emotional at times because of her distance and she turned this into a narrative of emotional abuse.


Remember U - she is going through something. It is not rational or logical. My W did the same thing, save the emotional abuse narrative. Instead she dug up some simple grievances that were correctable on my part, strung them together and blamed it all on me. I listened and validated - but none of it was justifiable for a split. At first i believed her, i thought it all was my fault. But it is not. A marriage is 50-50, both partners are to blame for the problems.

WASs need the justification to do what they are doing. My W was much more logical and practical than I was before her MLC or whatever started. Old W would have brushed new W off with a "whatever, you're crazy" speech.

This is tough, U. It [censored]. There is no getting around seeing other people oblivious to your sit, it is just something that you'll eventually get used to. Even though I dont have kids I feel it too - when I see couples who are interacting playfully with each other like my W and I did all the time. Sometimes at a party that is all I see - and I have to remove myself from the room for a few moments to breathe and re-center.

Quote

I need to make myself whole and right. This is going to be a rough year ahead settling this divorce.


It doesn't have to be a rough year unless you want it to be. You've already been through the worst of it. And please don't think about a whole year down the road. That's too far right now - it will only lead to more anxiety.

Take care of yourself and your kids. The rest will follow in due time.

Stay strong buddy smile

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W and I had a chat yesterday while handing off D3 (other 2 kids were at school). D3 was in the car, and the conversation escalated because W wanted to wait until spring to sell the house for a better price. And it is my fault for renting a second house which is causing us to spend into our savings.

And then, at some point, she hit me with it for the first time:

She resents me for us moving 2 years ago.

I put this in bold because I believe it is the truth, and also cannot believe she never told me this. Not once.

We went to 4 months of MC1 last year and she reassured me that she was fully on board with the move and that it was best for our family. It never came up as a source of friction. Instead she closed me off, and periodically would lash out at me about finances, or kids, or housework, or what have you, and I felt like I could never please her. And then she tells me she left her heart open to me, that she still loved me, and was waiting for me to "win her back" (same language as last week).

Had she brought this up a year ago, I would have been open to trying to move back and telecommuting to my current job. But she didn't. She explicitly said the move was not a problem. She thinks I wanted to move here and basically coerced her - what I wanted was security and stability for my family, in a lifestyle according to my W's wishes. That couldn't happen where we used to live. The insane part of this is after a year of establishing myself in my job up here, my employer would GLADLY allow me to telecommute from where we used to live. We could EASILY have made that move, had she brought it up. Instead, we spent MC1 detailing how I would do more laundry and housework...

I am extremely aggravated by all of this. I loved my W dearly. I would have jumped through hoops to win her back, had she given me any indication of what I could do. But when you are fighting outright resentment, and the other person has built up walls around their heart... it's a hopeless cause. I am also grateful for going through this personal hell because I have changed and I will be a happier person than had we worked through things then. But still... I don't know if I will ever be able to understand what has happened.

There are things I want to say to her but never will. I will probably make a post about this soon just to let it all out. Rather than communicating openly, honestly and respectfully, she hid behind her resentment and then mindread me in the worst possible way:

- Pull over the car to talk about our marriage crumbling? UC is about to run me off the road!

- Take S7 out with a pellet gun to shoot at a target? UC might go on a rampage!

- Go play guitar by myself to relax? UC is losing his mind!

- Write a love letter? UC is emotionally imbalanced!

- Respect the need for time and space in our separation? UC is not making an effort to win me back!

- Bring up that financially this separation is problematic? Money is a huge emotional trigger for UC!

- Lose some weight because of the pre-BD stress? UC may have borderline personality disorder!

"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die." - St. Augustine.

This quote resonates for me constantly. I am not the world's greatest communicator. I probably was too passive, and DB in some ways is a passive approach to communication, for good reasons. But I did try in my own clumsy way. I tried. My W bottled up her resentment and periodically blew up at me, in ways that confused me. I knew she was unhappy, but I felt completely powerless to fix it. We went to counseling. I tried to talk to her but felt shut out. I wish I had figured out how to just talk with her in a way that worked for both of us. I did tons of research on couples communication last year - podcasts, reading - I tried out the techniques. It just... didn't... work.

Lately I've dropped some of the DB techniques. Yesterday during this chat she said she spent all weekend crying and mourning the loss of her dream of living near her family. She went on and on. I said, "Yeah ... I spent the last 6 months crying a lot mourning the loss of our marriage." I know this was a DB mistake. But... my feelings are valid and I don't have to validate her with "Oh yeah that must be hard not living near your family... " I tried validation for months and it got me through the separation, but I'm tired of being a blank canvas for her to project all of her feelings onto. Maybe she needs to hear that I'm hurt, that I feel, that I have actual human emotions.

She also said "I know you hate my family." I told her that was really harsh. I had a close relationship with her dad, and even last weekend D5 wrote a spontaneous note to her grandma that I helped her put in an envelope and mail. She said "Well you seem really cold because you don't ask about them." (sigh)... there is literally no winning.

She brought up again that if she asked me to move back in, would I? And I again said, like I did last week, "No. I would tell you we need to work on things." This was a weird thing to ask a second time. I didn't take it as an honest ask. I think she wanted to see this as confirmation I am done. She can spin it however she wants...

I'll wrap this up with some honesty: What I am grieving is this all seems so .... fixable. It seems like a communication breakdown that went horribly wrong. And I know viewing things this way shows me that I still hold onto a thread of that rope.

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This is why the standard advice is to not believe anything they say. There is no winning here and whatever you do, they will always find a way to assign blame.


Originally Posted by unchien
I'll wrap this up with some honesty: What I am grieving is this all seems so .... fixable. It seems like a communication breakdown that went horribly wrong. And I know viewing things this way shows me that I still hold onto a thread of that rope.


I deal with this too. Even today I feel that my ex and I had some problems but everything was fixable. However, it clearly was not fixable from her perspective, if it was we would not be D today. Sad thing is that we are still a good match for each other compared to a potential new partner. But it takes two people to make a relationship and clearly that criteria was not met here. So, as hard as it can be you have to accept that it is not really fixable. As far as the communication breakdown, you reached that conclusion based on what she is 'saying' and you cannot really believe what is being said.

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Originally Posted by unchien

And then, at some point, she hit me with it for the first time:

She resents me for us moving 2 years ago.

I put this in bold because I believe it is the truth, and also cannot believe she never told me this. Not once.

We went to 4 months of MC1 last year and she reassured me that she was fully on board with the move and that it was best for our family.


U, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. She's rewriting history. Last year she was fully onboard and said it was best for the family. Now that she's a full-blown WAS she's opened up her WAS handbook and started spouting script at you, and you BELIEVE it? You've been here long enough to know better whistle


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by MLCxH
I deal with this too. Even today I feel that my ex and I had some problems but everything was fixable. However, it clearly was not fixable from her perspective, if it was we would not be D today. Sad thing is that we are still a good match for each other compared to a potential new partner. But it takes two people to make a relationship and clearly that criteria was not met here. So, as hard as it can be you have to accept that it is not really fixable. As far as the communication breakdown, you reached that conclusion based on what she is 'saying' and you cannot really believe what is being said.

This is precisely how I feel. We are a good match for each other in many ways.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

U, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. She's rewriting history. Last year she was fully onboard and said it was best for the family. Now that she's a full-blown WAS she's opened up her WAS handbook and started spouting script at you, and you BELIEVE it? You've been here long enough to know better whistle

Even as I write these things, there is a voice in my head now (thanks to DB) that tells me there is nothing I can do, she is going to blame me for it all, let it go. I know. There are times I doubt the voice. But these incidents only serve to reinforce my belief that I truly can do no right and I need to let it go.

The problem I have here is that I do believe she resents me for the move. I feel like she finally said something that was true, or at least matched my truth. I'm not saying we shouldn't have moved. These communication issues, and my W being controlling and communicating poorly, would have continued to persist. But she likely would not have completely submersed herself in the victim narrative full of resentment. Maybe in this alternative universe we would have stayed M'd, but I would have been less happy in the long run regardless.

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U,

I just want to hit on some points that you commented on above. The first is something AS talks about all the time and that you are probably never going to understand what happened. I am not even sure WWs know for sure why they are choosing this path. They have to believe in some way life we will be better. The next point is the fixable comment. Again I think all the LBS feel the same way. In my case my ex and I were still physically attracted to one another, enjoyed the same things, financially set for life etc. We just didn't know how to meet each other's needs. By the time I realized we were in crisis mode she was done and didn't want to try anymore. I feel good in the fact that once I knew we were in trouble I gave everything I could to save my marriage. You will get there too.

Last comment is have you thought about moving back in until the house sells to save on money?

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Thatīs why the need of living on real time, not longing for past days or previewing unknown future. Thatīs why we need to GAL and get into daily routines. Itīs hard but we must do that effort.

Wishing all the best for you and the kids Onedog ;-)

Be strong man. Keep DB. Man, you made me tear a little...

Be strong there!

(((unchien)))


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W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

I just want to hit on some points that you commented on above. The first is something AS talks about all the time and that you are probably never going to understand what happened. I am not even sure WWs know for sure why they are choosing this path. They have to believe in some way life we will be better.

One of my D'd friends told me recently that as time passes he understands less and less why his D happened. I know that I should not expect closure and that I will never understand. That doesn't mean I won't spend time trying though smile

Originally Posted by LH19
The next point is the fixable comment. Again I think all the LBS feel the same way. In my case my ex and I were still physically attracted to one another, enjoyed the same things, financially set for life etc. We just didn't know how to meet each other's needs. By the time I realized we were in crisis mode she was done and didn't want to try anymore. I feel good in the fact that once I knew we were in trouble I gave everything I could to save my marriage. You will get there too.

It's the same story for so many of us, right? By the time we come here, our spouse is done.

I always feel like I could have done more. But I also feel like I tried in my own way the best that I could. When my W says I didn't "win her back" I think... that's how it works in the movies, real relationships take both parties working. And I don't think she worked at it. She was not honest and open with me. Whether that was her fear or insecurities or resentment, relationships don't work without some level of open communication and a willingness to talk about difficult things.

Originally Posted by LH19
Last comment is have you thought about moving back in until the house sells to save on money?
This is a really interesting point and I will think about it. That house does have a separate guest area with its own mini-kitchen. I would have to break my current lease, but in my state the landlord is obligated to re-rent the property as quickly as possible.

I am concerned that this would make the situation more intense for awhile and disrupt my own healing process. But it is something to consider.

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