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A Message from Michele
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The last straw #2864177
09/05/19 03:07 PM
09/05/19 03:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
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Zip Offline OP
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Zip  Offline OP
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I find it tough to be here but like others, I am at the last stages of M. Been M for 32 yrs and with for 37yrs. Hard to explain all that has led to this other than trust issues. 15 yrs ago W told me she couldnt go on with me. She stated she was confused and gave the ILYBNWY. This came as a complete shock to me. We had just bought a farm and became friends with the prior owner. I found out just before settlement he was going thru a D which is why it was for sale. The sale was outside of a normal purchase as it was being auctioned. Reason I bring this up is it created a lot of correspondence with him vs thru an agent. My W became very fond of him and his son who was close to the same age as D2. I didn't think much of it but found he and W were spending time together during the day when everyone was at work or school. She just admitted to an EA with him this August due to her IC stating she should come clean. She denied this at the time and we both went to IC and MC. I spent 1 1/2 yrs in IC and we went to MC for a couple of months to work out what i thought were the issues. She said I didnt treat her right and she was much apposed to adult films we would watch. Porn was a big part of her issue which she never shared with me before . We ended this practice as a couple.

Intimacy was sparse and I eventually would seek relief from the internet. She found some correspondence with other women which was just that. There were other times she accused me having a relationship with a co worker and an email which was questionable. The co worker and I traveled out of state for a few days at a time and another co worker felt it important to call my W and spread a rumor of us drinking wine on a bed together. The rumor passed through 3 parties prior to getting to my W. The email which was 3 yrs ago was a contact I was receiving business information and had a bit of a questionable tone to it. I explained why it was written but she apparently never accepted this. After this email had been found by her, all intimacy stopped. Its been a very rocky 3 yrs with me begging for us to work on these issues. I pleaded for us to go to MC. She wouldn't agree stating it didn't work the first time when we attended 15 yrs ago.

Our Ds were living at home but D1 found a house where she can take her horses. Looked as if D1 and horses were going to leave this spring. I felt W was protecting D1 and her hobby but thought she was looking to leave the M after this took place. I pretty much begged her to see a MC and she agreed on Valentines day to do so and would call to set an appt. I waited until the end of March to ask where she was in setting an appt. Sh said she is too busy to set an appt. let it go until the end of April and got same answer. told her I can call to set an appt. All along we are getting closer to D1 moving her horses in July if all goes well. I set an appt for the middle of May, We went to the meeting and within 15 minutes she made it clear she wanted a D and has talked to a L. I was devastated although reality was pointing in that direction.

Left the MC and headed home later that eve. We had a chance to speak that night and I told her this was not what I was expecting at all. She said we haven't been married for 3 yrs. I pleaded my case on why we needed to work on the M and not throw it away, she seemed to have a change in action. Still nice and showing some attention to me. A month went by and she was warming up to me but still not interested in going back to MC. All this time she is GALing and losing weight. Looking really good but still no time for me. Then I made a big mistake. She found pictures on my phone. It was of her as I havent seen her naked for 3 yrs, I took pics unbeknownst to her and i invaded her privacy. She blew up and said thats it, Im out and want a D. This was the first of August.

I know I had done wrong. No excuses for my actions. Although it wasnt of another woman, or an affair or any other action which would have caused the same outcome, it was just as bad. I have asked for forgiveness and have on a couple occasions pleaded my case but at this time, I have stopped doing so, understanding that this action does no good. I am now at the mercy of what she wants as to moving forward.

D1 got engaged a few days prior to this happening and went away only to come back and ask to have her weddiing at the farm. Prior to her asking, we explain what happened, ( being transparent per W) and that we are going to D. THis went over horribly. Both Ds were present as well as fiance for this talk, Quite uncomfortable but i felt if W wanted me to tell them, then I would own up to my actions. Both Ds asked how we got to this part in the M and why we never seeked help. I told them I have asked and W wouldnt go. The Ds seemed to accept that the both of us had attributed to the demise and held no ill will towards me. In fact it has strengthened the relationship with D1 and opened up a better communication w D2 who is tough to deal with on a good day. I think W thought they would dis own me but that isn't the case up to now.

No paperwork has been filed by W yet. We had 3 conversations that should be noted. the first was 2 weeks ago, one last week. and another last night. Unfortunately, W is not much on conversations, in fact it becomes a monologue. She accuses me of verbal diarrhea and all I hear are crickets.

The first meaningful conversation started with if she would like to talk about anything in the past, present or future, she finally opened up a bit. the takeaway was" she didnt know where the D is"...no confirmation on if that meant paperwork or emotional status. " She doesn't feel love"....not sure if she meant from me or for me. "All i want her for is sex"....told her if that's all i am here for, I would have left a long time ago. "I have a wall around me that was starting to come down until the pic issue and now cant trust you ever again"....no answer to that one but heard it loud and clear. I did feel the conversation went better than expected as she did say some key points with no clarification. At least a starting point.

She was showing some softening through the week and when I asked her for a hug she said sure I can do that which felt good. Later that night she left for a few days away at the beach and gave me another hug. Seemed she may be thinking things over and there may be some hope (a dangerous feeling).

A conversation on the 3rd day away was a conversation I had when I called her to see how she was doing. My emotions were not in check and as she said, while she was sitting with her lady friends, I was Grilling her and Interrigating her on issues that were totally unacceptable. She eventually hung up on me after I told her she should just stay down there as long as she could. I would even bring her the laptop so she can work from there. This didnt need to be said but emotions got in the way and I was going to pay the price for my verbal diarrhea. I pretty much fell apart the rest of the evening and the next morning. I went to church and came back still in an emotional wreck...only to see her in the next 30 minutes in the driveway. I went up to her and hugged her and said " I am so glad to see you". This is 15 hrs after telling her to pretty much not come home. What a roller coaster.....for both. She kinda looked at me as if I was crazy, go figure, and then later said she can't live like this anymore.

We had another conversation last night which got interrupted by D2. Gist of it is she feels she cant ever get trust back enough to love me and cant see moving forward. She hasn't filled out paperwork due to me telling her I wasn't going to give the necessary docs to her. I dont recall ever telling her this. She said she had some of it filled out and when I asked for it, she said it was on her computer but didn't offer to get it for us to discuss. I was glad for that. After D2 left the room, we tried to pick up on the conversation again but was not going anywhere as she was too tired to talk. I have seen this all too often and knew it was heading to a "verbal diarrhea monologue" which I really wanted to avoid, My tone changes and volume elevates when trying to get a point across and knew it had started to head that way. We left it on a not so good note with no real time to pick it up again.

I am leaving for a couple of days which will be good for both of us especially by avoiding her having to do anything for my birthday. Soo..... there are other points I have left out which probably plays in on both sides but the most of my doings are out there. I still love her and want this to work for the future but I have found the lack of any affection, romance, and intimacy has been tough to go without. Why I still love her is beyond me but the fact is I do. One thing for sure is there will be a change, either with or without her is yet to be determined although she holds the cards and it doesnt look like the plans are not for me to be included in the future.

Suggestions are most welcome and my thanks for your time reading my sitch as well as your input.


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864185
09/05/19 03:45 PM
09/05/19 03:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,005
NY
Cadet Offline

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Cadet  Offline

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Posts: 13,005
NY
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D32,S31
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864190
09/05/19 04:46 PM
09/05/19 04:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,458
Colorado
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Ready2Change Online
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Ready2Change  Online
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Hi Zip,


Most guys here talk WAY TOO MUCH to their W. Lean to Listen to UNDERSTAND her FEELINGS and validate.

Most guys here want to push their POV. Do not do this. If asked, respond "I am not sure" or "I have not decided" or "I have not thought about that"...IE postpone your answer. Come here and get guidance.



Read this thread and all the threads linked in the first post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984


Hopefully we can guide you through this difficult sitch.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"

Persevere = happily being patient over a long period of time
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864191
09/05/19 05:23 PM
09/05/19 05:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 644
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CWarrior Offline
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Posts: 644
Hi Zip,

I read your situation from beginning to end. Wow! Tensions between you have been building for so long. Like many of us, you tried pleading first, and can cross that off as ineffective.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I went up to her and hugged her and said " I am so glad to see you". This is 15 hrs after telling her to pretty much not come home. What a roller coaster.....for both. She kinda looked at me as if I was crazy.

This is where Ready2Change's advice comes in to be slow to express what you want. Early in my sitch, I asked for a 2-weeks no-contact. When I changed my mind 2 days later, she'd already made alternative living plans.. for 3 months. You're not the first nor last to make this mistake and set your relationship back.

When relationships are at a tipping point, small mistakes can have big consequences. It's often better to do nothing for a day than to do something wrong when they're in such jeopardy.

Victor Frankl: "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom."

Last edited by CWarrior; 09/05/19 05:24 PM.

My partner of 2yrs left and moved away. Three months later we reconciled as a family living separately. She says she's committed to making it work, to try to return home, and to be an 'us' forever.
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864209
09/05/19 07:56 PM
09/05/19 07:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,279
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AnotherStander Offline
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Zip, welcome to the forums! You're applying way too much pressure to her. All the R talks have got to cease immediately. Quit trying to hug her and grill her and talk to her and snoop on her. Stop all of it! What should you do instead? NOTHING. Pull back. Leave her alone. Give her time and space. Find solitude and ask yourself what you want from a spouse, then look at what you've had for the last X years. No sex for 3 years? Brother if there's no medical reason for that I would have helped her pack and held the door open for her a LONG time ago. Why are you putting up with this misery? DON'T! Detach and leave her to her mess. You are worth more than this. If you effectively detach and find yourself then she may very well realize what she's losing and have a change of heart, but as long as you remain desperate and needy she is going to want nothing to do with you. Have you read DR yet? Read it, read Cadet's links, read other sitches here. Ask questions. But most of all leave your W alone for now.

Last edited by AnotherStander; 09/05/19 07:57 PM.

Me: 58 w/ S16, D22, D25
Current R: 4 years
Previous M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:56
Re: The last straw [Re: AnotherStander] #2864450
09/06/19 08:30 PM
09/06/19 08:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
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Zip Offline OP
New Member
Zip  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
thanks for the input! I am going to try posting this short answer as I wrote out a response last night and it didn't show up


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864453
09/06/19 08:45 PM
09/06/19 08:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
Z
Zip Offline OP
New Member
Zip  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
Going to try again as the message may be in the holding due to me being new.

Ready.... I agree about myself. When you dont get an answer but instead just a blank look back without any response, one seems to start rambling. I am very guilty of this which NEVER ended well. You would think after all these years, I would have gotten the message. Unfortunately, I came to the realization that what i was doing was insanity....with the same results. Trying real hard not to fall into this trap again. Especially after reading Another's post.

Cwarrior....Pleading got me nowhere....period. Actually, it did get her to a MC which in the first 15 min she said clearly...I want a D. Only took 3 yrs with a push from this past valentines day to see a MC on 5/20. I guess she finally felt it was time to pull the plug....but she says "there has never been a plan".....hmmmm

Another.... I have read your posts a lot and respect and value your input. Thanks for not sugar coating it. I am taking your advise strongly. It is my BDay today and got texts from W wishing me a great day,,,, finally responded with a thanks. She has called and sent her to VM ..... THIS DETACHING [censored]!!! I am working through the pain of loving her even for her faults....but..... I dont deserve this S@#T and there is a glimpse of anger starting to set in.

There are parts I probably didn't share just because of the length of the orig post. My D1 is now engaged just days before hell broke loose. She wants to get married at the farm which is putting a lot of pressure on all of us. I am hell bound to have this happen for her regardless of the W. THe issue is I can not see co habitating under the same roof for 10 mos with W in the house. She wants out..... then go..... I think she has said to me 3-4 times that she can not see her self being able to be the wife i want her to be. I guess the patience and detaching must be the only option.

Got one book and waiting for the other to show up. will start reading it asap as well as posting

THANKS ALL for your input. Sure wish I wasn't here but I am and appreciate your help.

Z


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864455
09/06/19 08:48 PM
09/06/19 08:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,005
NY
Cadet Offline

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Cadet  Offline

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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,005
NY
Originally Posted by Zip
the message may be in the holding due to me being new.

There are none in holding and your post count is 3 and there are 3 showing so maybe you never pressed post - IDK.


Me-65, D32,S31
Re: The last straw [Re: Cadet] #2864457
09/06/19 08:59 PM
09/06/19 08:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
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Zip Offline OP
New Member
Zip  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
Thanks Cadet....u know some of us are just technically challenged!


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864492
09/07/19 05:08 AM
09/07/19 05:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
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Zip Offline OP
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Zip  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
Was up early this morning outside of not sleeping well, I wanted to be gone before W and D2 got moving. Managed to get out of the house before seeing them. Interestingly enough, D1 and her fiancť texted me birthday wishes early in the am. Shortly after my phone was constantly going off. With nonstop texts....it waste W....sending a dozen b-day gifs to me. I thought if I got a "happy bday" woulda been more in line but it seemed she was over doing it considering the circumstances. I was quite surprised and a bit shocked. I answered back a simple thanks. She also wanted to know what time I was leaving town. Told her after work and left it at that. Last was a call from her in the afternoon which I texted an answer that I couldn't talk. No VM was left and I didn't call back. I am thinking this is detaching...if she needed me, she could have left a Vm for me. She didn't .

Will be back home tomorrow afternoon and will see how the reaction is from her. I have plenty to do to avoid any interaction and will follow Anther's advice. I heard your advice and agree that's what I need to do.

Sunday, I was inviter to watch the football game at a mutual friend's house. May be able to go and escape being at home but not sure if it would be right to do being it is an old classmate of the W. It could put them in the middle if I go and she finds out.....thoughts on going?

Another.....I never took into consideration my worth as she has diminished my internal value. I was a go getter and hustler. Worked hard to provide and now looking back, I see the fruits we have for that work. She will get half and I am not bitter over that, at least not yet. She does well and has had the opportunity to save a substantial amount of cash unbeknownst to me until very recent. She did tell me but is reluctant to disclose the actual amount. I find it hard to see this as a piece of a master plan that has been put in place. I do find it odd she told me about it. It would have been discovered and mane she felt she better disclose a little at a time while planning her exit. I got a little off track but wanted to say in writing a list of what I want in a W, she falls short in quite a few. It's all love driven. Would be interesting to see her list as well.

Enough for now....any input would be much appreciated.

Z


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864625
09/09/19 01:45 AM
09/09/19 01:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
Z
Zip Offline OP
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Zip  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
Went out of town Friday evening without any communication outside if texts from her wishing me H-Bday and wanted to know when I was leaving. She did call late afternoon and I let it go to vm which she didnít leave one. No contact Saturday until I got home in the eve. No more than a couple words about how the dog was doing. No other conversation. I had to start the convo. Not her. She is apparently mad and I am as well. Thinking how I have bee used for years just to protect D1 and D2. Communication has come to a temporary halt.

I understand how in the past I have been accused of talking too much. Got good advice to leave her alone and stop talking. I agree My monologues havenít gotten me anywhere. The new me is finding this hard but working on it. Itís very different due to her usually keeping everything close to the vest and never verbalizing, and I express exactly what is on my mind and then some. Always a negative outcome. I am wondering if this is what I should be doing because the lack of communication seems counterintuitive and not a positive approach.

Still fighting emotions. Go s from wanting fix the R to being mad and ready to through in the towel. I know I donít want the D but quite certain paperwork is on the way. Being in limbo [censored]. I am trying to find patience But it is tough. Keeping convo to a minimum but the old me would be to push for answers, which resulted in a negative outcome. I feel there is nothing I can do. I am trying to stay busy and keep my mind off the sitch but really fighting it. Is this normal?

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864629
09/09/19 03:02 AM
09/09/19 03:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 644
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CWarrior Offline
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CWarrior  Offline
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Posts: 644
Originally Posted by "Zip"
No more than a couple words about how the dog was doing. No other conversation. I had to start the convo. Not her.

Did you HAVE TO start the conversation?

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I understand how in the past I have been accused of talking too much. Got good advice to leave her alone and stop talking. I agree My monologues havenít gotten me anywhere. The new me is finding this hard but working on it.

Good work! Change is hard. If monologues are one of your trademarks, it's going to be a noticeable 180.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
She is apparently mad and I am as well.

Awareness is good. You're mad, and with good reason. Do have know coping strategies--e.g, exercise, meditation, and/or individual therapy? I find those help process anger, so we can act as per our values.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I am wondering if this is what I should be doing because the lack of communication seems counterintuitive and not a positive approach.

I double-checked Sandi's 37 Rules. They do encourage the left behind partner to shush. They also encourage them to listen intently and validate all the walk away spouse has to say when they're ready to speak. I've found our communication has improved greatly since I've done a little more listening to my partner.

Last edited by CWarrior; 09/09/19 03:04 AM.

My partner of 2yrs left and moved away. Three months later we reconciled as a family living separately. She says she's committed to making it work, to try to return home, and to be an 'us' forever.
Re: The last straw [Re: CWarrior] #2864820
09/10/19 02:46 AM
09/10/19 02:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
Z
Zip Offline OP
New Member
Zip  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
cwarrrior....no I didn't meet to but walking through the room and heading up for the evening I thought I should say something and not be rude. Felt asking about the dog would be a simple response and it was. It was more to see if she would even acknowledge me. She did. Guess I shouldn't have said anything?

I am in IC since the last of May when she said she was done. I am finding it helpful but this whole process feels like slow motion. Don't get me .wrong in that I want it over, it's just sooo much in limbo. IC says lay low and react slowly. It's just the waiting to see what' going to happen. No paperwork....no conversations.....no nothing except knowing she wants out...I think. I am quite sure she is done and due to D1 planning a wedding at the farm has put her plans On hold. I'm not even sure of this. That's the issue....I know nothing regarding her plans. I do know I dont want to live this way for the next 10 months.

Looking into joining a gym close to work. The farm takes a lot of my time and I am reconsidering keeping the livestock and being finished with that part. This will give me more time for my GAL.

Conversing with the W Is a struggle. She doesn't open up. One of the main issues that has gotten us to this sitch. If I stay quiet, to will def be a 180 for me and who knows when she will speak?

Good news is she wanted to know where I would like to have my BDay dinner....need to decide but felt that was nice.

Guess I need to continue to chill.....

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2864840
09/10/19 01:05 PM
09/10/19 01:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 5,736
S
Steve85 Online
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Steve85  Online
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Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 5,736
Zip, hang in there man. I know what you are going through, been through it myself. Continuing to chill is the best thing that you can do. Also, start living a life of honesty and integrity in all your dealings. This is a new self-discovery I have moved to the top of my priority list. The kind of person you are is not the person you show to others. The kind of person you are is the person you are when no one is looking. Guess what, that latter will always end up shining through, good or bad. Change who you are at your core, and then be yourself. It can't help but to have an impact on others.

Remember sandi's rules. Learn them. Know them. Use them. My favorite is to always be upbeat and pleasant, no matter what she does or doesn't do.


M(50), W(51),D(15)
M-20, T-22 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Re: The last straw [Re: Steve85] #2864930
09/11/19 03:08 AM
09/11/19 03:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 19
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Zip Offline OP
New Member
Zip  Offline OP
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Thanks Steve! This is some crazy stuff...I am struggling a lot trying to do the right things but find just a simple quick hiccup will derail any positive movement.

Her issues were trust based and I am not sure how to show a 180 on this. I want to be transparent which is important but I am taking advice to chill and leave her alone. She will ask what I have planned for the day most mornings but I havenít given her a rundown on all I have planned due to limiting my conversations with her. Unfortunately I have a lot of freedom in my job being self employed and in sales. I also had my assistant retire in June. That was good and bad as she would try stirring up issues with my wife which I was not aware of. W told me she wasnít playing that game with her. Issue is she has to believe what I tell her without any checks and balances. I donít know how to rebuild the trust when I am to chill and limit all conversations with her. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Another interesting issue is for those who are aware of the sitch says move on. No intimacy for 3 yrs and you are still in love with her is crazy. Move on and find someone who will appreciate me. Then I am reading DB and feeling this M could and should be saved. At 58 do I want to start over, well not really. I have to decide if itís worth investing time in trying to save the M or move on and deal with the pain now. This isnít taking in her side which D papers have not been filed as far as I can tell. Itís status quo for her in the back bedroom, no rings on and doing what she wants to do as usual. I donít see where she has to move on as she is content as a roommate and acts like the M is done. Not much difference outside of moving out of the MB.

She wanted the invoice for the annual propane costs so she could pay it. If you want a D, why are you willing to pay the $1200 bill if you may be leaving? She paid it last year but I have paid it the 5 yrs prior. This is confusing to me.
If I did the BD, I wouldnít be shelling out a lump sum that doesnít have to be paid....or I would pass it on to her. Makes little sense and makes me wonder if she is going to D me or not.

Trying to chill, and chill, and chill..... very confused by her actions. I need to really work on myself and leave her alone as stated earlier, itís just a downfall as I want to discuss where the sitch is but canít.

Need to work on me....

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865060
09/11/19 11:00 PM
09/11/19 11:00 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust. Seems counterintuitive.... R2C and AS were here and could use some support in this as Iím a bit lost.

Yesterday, I did text her confirm if she didnít have dinner planned, I would pick up something and put on the grille. Did that and she complimented me on dinner then she cleaned up as I had to take care of horses. Overall a good night as I finished in the barn and returned to the house to find D2 and W in bed. No convo this morning and just a text from her telling me she watered horses. I thanked her and nothing since including coming into the house this eve. Just back to non communication which is why we have struggled in the past.

Steve....any suggestions on actions instilling trust and integrity are greatly appreciated!

Starting to waffle about whether itís worth the fight looking back at the history and knowing what a mountain I need to climb with no promises that #1. She is going to even participate and #2 I donít want to be 60 and starting over.

Maybe some vets could shed light on this as I am fighting it.

With D1 planning on her wedding here in June 2020, I am wondering if I am just being played as I have been. She works from home and no interruptions to her, status quo. Lives in the back br and all is good for her. Time is on my side but itís tough to know whatís up esp not communicating.


She said last wed night she will never be able to love me again like a wife. Said she had paperwork on her computer to fill out for the L but stated I told he r I would not give her the tax returns etc....something I donít recall saying. Figured she would give me a copy so I can give her what she needs but there has been no attempt to talk about it since. Starting to think either she can file regardless which makes sense to me and that her L isnít getting the paperwork complete in a timely manner......or......is she stalling? Either way, I am thinking itís outside of my control SO LEAVE IT ALONE......harder said than done.

Feeling lost in this......any help would be greatly appreciated.

Also how do I copy quoted portions so I can answer ....sorry for the learning curve, lol!

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865061
09/11/19 11:04 PM
09/11/19 11:04 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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Been reading other threads and DB book. Not done yet but I go from thinking this can be saved to whether it should be saved.

Finding advice is always available.....itís the good advice thatís hard to get...... Family and friends are not always the best as I am learning and reading.

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865062
09/11/19 11:10 PM
09/11/19 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by "Zip"
Starting to think either she can file regardless which makes sense to me

Hi Zip, in the USA she can file for divorce without any input from you. I filed myself without any attorneys--took 2-3 days effort and ~$200. If/when you get served, you don't have to do anything, but probably should!

Last edited by CWarrior; 09/11/19 11:12 PM.

My partner of 2yrs left and moved away. Three months later we reconciled as a family living separately. She says she's committed to making it work, to try to return home, and to be an 'us' forever.
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865066
09/12/19 12:07 AM
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IIRC, the initial filing announces intent, puts temporary restraining orders in place for both regarding finances and kids, and tells the served party their rights. It doesn't include any sort of settlement.


Last edited by CWarrior; 09/12/19 12:09 AM.

My partner of 2yrs left and moved away. Three months later we reconciled as a family living separately. She says she's committed to making it work, to try to return home, and to be an 'us' forever.
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865073
09/12/19 01:02 AM
09/12/19 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Zip
Also how do I copy quoted portions so I can answer ....sorry for the learning curve, lol!
There should be a quote button at the bottom of each post, next to the reply and report buttons.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"

Persevere = happily being patient over a long period of time
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865074
09/12/19 01:04 AM
09/12/19 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Zip
I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust. Seems counter-intuitive.... R2C and AS were here and could use some support in this as Iím a bit lost.
You should act like you do when having a conversation with a cashier. Pleasant, but not personal.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"

Persevere = happily being patient over a long period of time
Re: The last straw [Re: CWarrior] #2865081
09/12/19 02:08 AM
09/12/19 02:08 AM
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Zip Offline OP
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CW, this is what I thought and am going to meet w a L next week. This is #2 L, the back up plan which I learned years ago in business. Got a logical one to start but the bulldog is in my back pocket if needed and now blocked from W retaining her. With that said, itís pointing to W stalling.

When we had the few conversations, she says she canít move on but has an excuse for everything such as moving out, selling property, not having a place to buy as she isnít going to rent...on and on. Mind you, she has put away a six figure nest egg she slipped up and told me about that she has been working on the past couple years while I am keeping everything afloat. Talk about a slight trust issue. She could buy a place for cash for what she wants. Furthermore her sis moved to a shore home and still has her home in town which is sitting vacant 80% of the time. Suggested she move there and her response was, ďnot in that town, besides you could move to your brotherís houseĒ. Yup, I could if we didnít have livestock to tend to.

Other issues have surfaced w D2, she has no respect for me(a learned trait from W) and W and D2 are BFFs. This crap is getting very frustrating and the disrespect from her is becoming a part of the overall issue. W will not engage in supporting me nor has she for quite some time. This family has become disfunctional and W has driven it to this point. D1 says just ignore them many times as she has had her fill with them as well. Just one more reason to move on. I donít see any way to reverse this with W so controlling. I feel beat down by all of this but Iím going to chalk it up to a bad day and hope for a better day tomorrow.

Was hoping life would be easier at this age.....


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Ready2Change] #2865082
09/12/19 02:25 AM
09/12/19 02:25 AM
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Zip Offline OP
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R2C. Thanks for the advice.

So for example, tonight, I came in from the barn and W was on her iPad and watching tv, I walked through the room, made eye contact and kept going to the BR. No convo at all. She knows I am out happy w D2 and her and she said nothing so I said nothing. This is becoming a standoff. I guess if she has something to say, I can politely answer, otherwise keep moving?

Have a B-Day dinner for me she has planned for tomorrow night. Not sure who but guess itís D1 and fiancť, D2 and BF, W and I. Right now, Iím ready to cancel it. Why be with W and D2 with their disrespect for me.

Think I need to sleep on this, I prefer to avoid conflict and go. Nothing good will come of me cancelling although, there is going to be a time Iím not gonna give a s#@7; and let them know Iím done.

My brain is feeling like a pinball machine with thoughts all over the place.

All of your advice is well appreciated and is sinking in....thanks so much.

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Ready2Change] #2865155
09/12/19 08:26 PM
09/12/19 08:26 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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How do you try rebuilding trust and validate if you are trying to show with actions and not words?

Could use some help, if some of the vets can offer some advice i would greatly appreciate jt !!


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865161
09/12/19 08:56 PM
09/12/19 08:56 PM
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unchien Online
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Hey Zip - First time posting here on your thread.

Steve85 gave you great advice on rebuilding trust:

Originally Posted by Steve85
I know what you are going through, been through it myself. Continuing to chill is the best thing that you can do. Also, start living a life of honesty and integrity in all your dealings. This is a new self-discovery I have moved to the top of my priority list. The kind of person you are is not the person you show to others. The kind of person you are is the person you are when no one is looking. Guess what, that latter will always end up shining through, good or bad. Change who you are at your core, and then be yourself. It can't help but to have an impact on others.

Once you identify your core values, tap into them, and act with integrity whether you are alone or with other people, it will shine through.

This also means trust is not regained overnight, unfortunately. And it may never be regained. But you certainly can't regain a healthy trust without taking these steps.


M: 11, T: 15
S7, D5, D3
MC1: 09/2018-01/2019
BD: 06/12/19
MC2: 06/12/19-??
S: 06/29/19-??
Re: The last straw [Re: unchien] #2865255
09/13/19 04:54 PM
09/13/19 04:54 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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^^^^ agree with what Steve said. i am working hard on this but there is no barometer nor instant gratification as to whether anything i do is positive. Working on ME.... so I get it isnt and shouldn't be about effect.

As far as regaining trust. Probably will not ever be with W.

Sitch has slid even more as conversation is at a bare minimum. Had B Day dinner and she got some presents for me which was very nice. Interestingly enough, no card. Guess she didnt want to say anything which a card would be doing just that and would include her signing, meaning she was endorsing the card's message.

Struggling and now wondering if D is on the way from either one of us. Starting to believe this process is just drawing out the pain and suffering for more to come in the future. NOT what i want to think but starting to find it more apparent in my thought process. May be just a bad period in the whole sitch.


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865284
09/13/19 08:55 PM
09/13/19 08:55 PM
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Wow! I was chomping at the bit before I had read a dozen lines. Zip, I don't know you but I know who has been in control of this relationship, and it wasn't you. There is a lot more than trust issues going on here.

Quote
She just admitted to an EA with him this August due to her IC stating she should come clean. She denied this at the time and we both went to IC and MC.


So, was she and OM in an affair for 15 yrs and it's just now coming out? If they were spending that much time together while everyone was away........I think it's safe to assume they took the affair to the physical level. A wayward wife gives trickled down truth, and she usually will admit to a lower level of the actual truth. In other words, if she was pressured to tell you about OM, she's going to imply they were mostly friends, then finally admit that she did have a little emotional thing for him.

Okay, so why was she seeing an IC before anything came out about the affair?

I understand the MC, but why were you in IC? I'm guess I'm asking if both of you were seeing IC for the same issues. Were you seeing the same counselor?

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She stated she was confused and gave the ILYBNWY.


The only thing that causes a wife to be "confused" about her feelings for her H........is when OM is in the picture.

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She said I didnt treat her right and she was much apposed to adult films we would watch. Porn was a big part of her issue which she never shared with me before . We ended this practice as a couple.


How did you not treat her right? I suspect that was a load of b.s. She is a wayward wife who is guilty of infidelity, so she was scrambling to come up with some excuse. However, there was some reason the both of you were seeing IC. What was it?

Quote
Intimacy was sparse and I eventually would seek relief from the internet.


Sparse, huh? How long had you been suffering a sexually starved marriage before she permanently cut you off?

Quote
After this email had been found by her, all intimacy stopped. Its been a very rocky 3 yrs with me begging for us to work on these issues. I pleaded for us to go to MC. She wouldn't agree stating it didn't work the first time when we attended 15 yrs ago.


Look Zip, the woman never intended to work on the MR. She was searching for something to use against you, and she found the email. She used that email for her handy little excuse to stop having sex with you permanently. Here's the thing I want you to consider. You went 3 yrs with no sex from your W. Did she give you a variety of excuses over those 3 yrs, or just shoot you down? Were you waiting on her to initiate? To make matters worse, or it seems to me, that you bought into her b.s. and became the underdog, while she called the shots in the bedroom, and in the family dynamic. She not only had no respect for you as a man and as her H, but demonstrated enough disrespect that it taught her D that's the way to treat a husband. Now you have two females in the home disrespecting the male leader.

Quote
I pretty much begged her to see a MC and she agreed on Valentines day to do so and would call to set an appt. I waited until the end of March to ask where she was in setting an appt. Sh said she is too busy to set an appt. let it go until the end of April and got same answer. told her I can call to set an appt. All along we are getting closer to D1 moving her horses in July if all goes well. I set an appt for the middle of May, We went to the meeting and within 15 minutes she made it clear she wanted a D and has talked to a L. I was devastated although reality was pointing in that direction.


Well in my opinion, the weight of the trust issue is due toher behavior, unless I've read it wrong. She has managed to twist things and cause you to believe that you are the bad guy here. While you would have went along with whatever she said, if you thought it would warm her blood a little. Of course, we only have your side of the story, but I'm just saying I see a man who was leaving the MR (and especially the sexual relationship) up to his W, and begging her to get help. She has been deceitful, disrespectful, manipulative, and dishonest. You say you are being transparent. Has your cheating W of 15 yrs done any transparency work? My guess is no, b/c she would feel it invades her privacy, and I'd also guess her affair had zero consequences.

Quote
Left the MC and headed home later that eve. We had a chance to speak that night and I told her this was not what I was expecting at all. She said we haven't been married for 3 yrs. I pleaded my case on why we needed to work on the M and not throw it away, she seemed to have a change in action. Still nice and showing some attention to me. A month went by and she was warming up to me but still not interested in going back to MC. All this time she is GALing and losing weight. Looking really good but still no time for me. Then I made a big mistake. She found pictures on my phone. It was of her as I havent seen her naked for 3 yrs, I took pics unbeknownst to her and i invaded her privacy. She blew up and said thats it, Im out and want a D. This was the first of August.

I know I had done wrong. No excuses for my actions. Although it wasnt of another woman, or an affair or any other action which would have caused the same outcome, it was just as bad.


WHAT?!? You took a secret photo of your naked wife (who has refused you sex for three yrs) and that's just as bad as having an affair??? Who are you listening to? Wait.......I know, it's your W! The W who was looking on your phone. The W who would have had a fit if you looked on her phone, right? The same W that had no consequences for her A.

I want to tell you something. Your W is still cheating on you. You need to get your b@lls back and stop acting like some guilty wuss. Stop acting like you were the one scr@wing around. Stop apologizing and begging. It's not attractive. How would an alpha male have reacted when his W reacted to seeing her photo on his phone?

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She was showing some softening through the week and when I asked her for a hug she said sure I can do that which felt good. Later that night she left for a few days away at the beach and gave me another hug. Seemed she may be thinking things over and there may be some hope (a dangerous feeling).


No Zip, she was playing you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865292
09/13/19 10:50 PM
09/13/19 10:50 PM
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Continuing from my previous post.........

Quote
Was up early this morning outside of not sleeping well, I wanted to be gone before W and D2 got moving. Managed to get out of the house before seeing them.


Perhaps you think detaching means to avoid. I will copy a short version of the definition of DB detaching in my next post. You are working way too hard at avoiding your W and D2. (BTW most posters here identify they daughters by age, rather than order of birth......just in case it confuses anyone.) I read Another Stander's advice and I don't think he meant to completely avoid any possibility of seeing your W. IMHO, he was saying to just back off and stop trying to fix things with the methods you were using.

Quote
She will get half and I am not bitter over that, at least not yet. She does well and has had the opportunity to save a substantial amount of cash unbeknownst to me until very recent. She did tell me but is reluctant to disclose the actual amount. I find it hard to see this as a piece of a master plan that has been put in place.


Believe it. She has been a wayward wife for quite some time, and if there's one thing WW's do.....it is to look out for #1. Yes, she has been sneaking and planning for a while. I don't know if the law can force her hand (should you divorce), but I would be checking with a lawyer. Don't tip your hand and let her know what you are thinking. Is she employed or was this your money she was stashing?

Quote
I understand how in the past I have been accused of talking too much. Got good advice to leave her alone and stop talking. I agree My monologues havenít gotten me anywhere. The new me is finding this hard but working on it. Itís very different due to her usually keeping everything close to the vest and never verbalizing, and I express exactly what is on my mind and then some. Always a negative outcome. I am wondering if this is what I should be doing because the lack of communication seems counterintuitive and not a positive approach.


Like I previously stated, I don't think the advice was to taken to mean you never communicate or that you try to escape the house without running into her. As the LBH, you may struggle to stay balanced when you read advice. I've been shocked to discover how some LBS's interpret the 37 rules, but I think it is partly due to the emotional stress they are under (It just couldn't be the way they were written. smile ) Also, after you are here for a little while, you'll learn our personalities and writing styles.

People like you and me have the desire to talk. We need to talk. That's how we deal with life is talking about it. I am married to a man who does not talk. I would try to have a conversation and it would always end with me having a monologue. If I had to guess, you are wondering how on earth the marital problems will be resolved if nobody is talking. You and I see talking as communication, but everyone doesn't agree, especially if emotions come into play. I think you said something about your voice getting stronger/louder as you spoke to her. I like to see men with good strong voices, but did you know that sometimes if a man speaks softly but seriously to his W, it has more effect than yelling? I am not talking about a timid voice, or one full of fear or dread. I mean getting close to her, looking her dead in the eye and softly making a statement. Don't get weird or anything. You could start to practice controlling the tone and volume of your voice, when you are talking to others, as well as to family.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you feel the urgency to talk with your W, so as to find out where she stands or tell her what you think? If she's still talking divorce, will you beg again for her to go to counseling, or will you give in to what she says? Based on what I perceived about the dynamics in your relationship, she is the leader and you follow whatever she tells you. If I'm wrong, please tell me. Just b/c she isn't the main talker, doesn't mean she isn't the one in charge. This happens a lot when the H has the mentality that a "happy wife is happy life".

Quote
I am struggling with how to stay quiet and avoid any communication, outside of what she may start, and trying to build trust.


Well, I've said enough about the talking, so I'll try not to repeat myself. Do you have a plan? Do you know what you really want? Not what she says, but what you want? She knows how to play this game much better than you, right? She can wait you out. I don't think a standoff is good, except to cool down and try to get control of emotions. I think that's how a lot of couples get into a sexually starved marriage. They are waiting on the other spouse to initiate, so they go for years in a standoff. BTW, I'm not telling you to go talk to her. Just hear me out, first. You need to know where YOU stand about her deceit and manipulation. You say something about trying to build trust, but what you are referring to is you having to earn her trust. Am I right? You see yourself as being the spouse who did something as bad as cheating. Well, when I came to the board back in 2007 as a wayward W who was still in an Internet affair, I was told by several LBH's that there was NOTHING worse than betrayal. If I tried to explain my situation, they shut me down (or tried to) and said if I wasn't happy in my M that I should have done the decent thing and get a divorce. Imagine that! I mean, nothing is worse than betrayal? That was the consensus of those posting to me at the time.

I said all of that for a purpose. Know who has betrayed whom by cheating with another person. If and when the subject arises, know exactly what you will not tolerate in your MR any longer. You need to study boundaries, b/c you really need to protect your feelings from this woman who manipulates your mind. Your self respect has flat lined, and the women in your household (especially the W) will never respect you until you can respect yourself. As already noted by others, you deserve better. Maybe she does, too. These issues did not pop up overnight, so I wonder if there is something deeper going on.

Anyway, don't get into a hurry to talk about things, b/c you need to do some serious soul searching about what you wish you had.....from what you really have. For example, you said you didn't know why you should still love her, but you do. My question is do you love the girl you married, or the woman she became? Know your own heart, before you try to convince someone else to change theirs.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865333
09/14/19 10:05 PM
09/14/19 10:05 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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Hi Sandi...thanks for joining in. I greatly appreciate your input and advice. I will try to get the answers regarding the questions you have posted.

The A went for 5-6 mos from 12/03 to 5/04... when it was exposed. She denied it and stated she didnt know what she wanted. Further conversations were that he was a great dad....not taking into consideration that he was in a divorce which the youngest son was heading to another state and he would not be able to spend time with him. the window for him was closing and it was easy for OM to come to the house and have his son play with D23 who was 8 at the time.

She denied any PA or EA until 8/3/19 whereby she said it was an EA and needed to come clean per her current IC. Still denies any PA... this doesnt surprise me. WHo Knows. We both then saw IC and a MC after this all blew up. She saw IC for 3 mos and I saw IC for 1.5 yrs as I was the reason for this in her mind. MC was for 3 mos and things changed whereby we were getting back to a better M. Finally had intimacy 4 mos after the incident... which was strongly urged by her IC and the MC. Not what she wanted to hear but.... We saw different IC thru this.

The IC was based on the " I dont know what I want (OM or Me) and need space"

In treating her right, she felt I put her at the bottom of the list of who came first. She felt I was putting, work, church activities, coaching the Ds and a Civic group all before her. She was on the bottom. I didnt see this but she felt this way.

As far as the adult films, she never stated it as a problem until she had a convo with OM who said it was wrong and there shouldnt be a TV in the bedroom. She bought in and I agreed to end it based on the MC and her stating it was wrong.

As far as a sex starved marriage, I would have to say probably 6-7 yrs based on what i feel should have been much better. She found correspondence/ email which she felt very permissive. this was during the sparse intimacy period and shut it down July 2016. there was one other time in Jan 17 that we had sex. That was it. Asked for her and she was never willing and always a reason. I would get mad and that is how it ended, I try again and she wanted nothing to do with me. Too tired, come to bed after or before me... anything to avoid it.

I bought into her BS.... with no way of moving it off dead center. She refused to do anything about it and said all her friends are in the same situation and she is no different. told her that is them, not us... still didn't matter. YOU finally get so angry, then tired of being angry, that you give up. Try looking for the good and hope for a better time. I also heard about the menopause issues that play a role in it. She has no medical issues outside of the norm needing lubrication but nothing out of the ordinary.

I have given her reasons for trust, ie the email and correspondence she saw....all by snooping but... still I did wrong there. then the pic issue is what she feels went WAY OVER the Edge...and endorsed by her support group.

Not sure how an ALPHA male would have handled it...maybe tell her its of you and get over it? Not sure but seems most who know think it was horrendous, unless they come clean with having pics of their own of their spouses. Males dont see it as a D ending issue, Females think the absolute worst of me and it holds all the merit needed to say bye.

How did i see it, well, yes it was wrong. Really wrong, Does it warrant a D, well with all the past showing she has been quite protective, it gives her the excuse to paint me as the horrible H. I dont think it is the end all, but even this morning with a rare conversation, it breaks her down discussing it. I validate the best i could. Told her I am sorry and see how devastating it has been to her. And that I can't imagine the hurt I have caused her.

She has stated it would have been easier if I had an affair. Yes from her and not others although my IC feels it would end most M.

I agree there was no consequence paid for her A.... which by the way... just became that out of her mouth last month.

I totally agree that she has been planning an out although she can play me in saying there was no plan... the monies she has saved is from her being self employed, We both are self employed in different businesses. She doesnt tell me what she makes nor does she ask me of my business. We handle certain bills which she has the food, H/E loan and one other loan for a lot. I handle the Mtge and most insurances. My monthly is much heavier than hers which allowed her to sock monies away. She still states it wasnt being hidden, I have never seen it as it is in her business account. I am not on it nor do i snoop. I know i will see it but it hasnt been offered even up to this morning when I asked about it in a conversation i will explain below.

I do want to talk about the R and where we stand as well as finding out what is going on. She said she was giving a 30 peroid to see where her feelings were. A great time when I am trying my best to just stay sane. I was not aware of this timeframe and sitting on the sidelines waiting for paperwork. She used the conversation we had while she was on the beach to decide it would not work moving forward as she cant live like this anymore.

Will I talk to her and beg to save the M or go to MC....no. I told her were i am and she needs to decide for herself if she wants to move forward., I need to work on what I want. Wrote a list of what I want and she is hitting 25% of the list at best. Could she be at 80%, yes, will she? Who knows but probably not at this time. W will need to step up and agree to working on this 100% which isnt going to happen. PEROID. Her feelings, pride, and what she wants will not let her do this, IMHO.

Our convo today was that she wanted to RSVP for a wedding, She saw a post on FB, which is the first and last i will do. it said " as I look in my past, i found as one door closes that i wanted to stay open, there seems another always comes open that is a better option to what I thought was good" not exactly that but it was pretty clear that I was saying if she is leaving, i will find another door to move forward though. IT WAS NOT A WISE POST. She pretty much told me I shouldnt go as i may stir up drama. This is what took us to where the D stands.

She said the L was putting a doc together to allow her to buy a home while we were working out the details..... WHat does that mean???? I thought it over and realize after the conv was over, what she was saying is she will file for D with the doc saying she can purchase a home thereafter and i will not be on the deed. this is saying she is moving on....

I saw her this afternoon and told her i now know what she meant by the docs and it was to be attached to the filing, She then said she didn t know what she was doing and she wasnt going to talk about it. this would have been a good time to discuss being we has an empty house. She said she wasnt discussuing it and I said thats fine, when you feel up to it, let me know, not an issue waiting and I just dont want all the hard feelings working through it.


I need to decide where I want to go, If the W could meet somewhere in the middle and work on the M, I am open, She told me she paid the annual propane bill which i found odd if she is leaving. Then yesterday, she wrote a sizable check for my quarterly est income tax bill which we have split out for each of us to pay with our portions spelled out which we both pay our portions. She said since i pay the health ins, she would pay my taxes for me. I am not sure what she is doing nor do i understand why she is unloading this $$ when she is planning on leaving.

FInding the last 48 hrs have been mixed messages. NO IDEA but worried that she may just be playing me.

Meeting w the L this week. Will have a better feel for whats going on to protect myself,

VERY CONFUSED...

Sandi, Hope this helps and any input or clarification will be greatly apreciated!!!

thanks to everyone else as your advice is very welcome.

Z.


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865573
09/17/19 01:40 PM
09/17/19 01:40 PM
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sandi2 Offline
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I forgot to copy & paste the DB definition of detaching.

*************************

Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865594
09/17/19 04:19 PM
09/17/19 04:19 PM
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Hi Zip,

It's exhausting just reading all you're going through. Living through that would be H-E-DoubleHockeySticks.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
Wrote a list of what I want and she is hitting 25% of the list at best. Could she be at 80%, yes, will she?.

It won't happen unless and until she wants to be married to you. When she wants out is definitely NOT the time to unload on her a list of things she's doing wrong / should change to be with you.

It's amazing how much a partner will change when they choose you!

Originally Posted by "Zip"
"as I look in my past, i found as one door closes that i wanted to stay open, there seems another always comes open that is a better option to what I thought was good"

Nope. What was your goal in sending it? You can always share ideas here before implementing them. In these situations often sitting on your hands is better than doing something rash.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
Our convo today was that she wanted to RSVP for a wedding, She pretty much told me I shouldnt go as i may stir up drama. This is what took us to where the D stands.

Was SHE invited or were YOU invited? If you were BOTH invited, she decides for herself if she goes, and you decide for yourself if you go. This shows you don't control her and she doesn't control you. You are both individuals free to make choices! A wedding is a social occasion where you get to catch-up and meet people.

Originally Posted by "Zip"
I saw her this afternoon and told her i now know what she meant by the docs and it was to be attached to the filing, She then said she didn t know what she was doing and she wasnt going to talk about it. this would have been a good time to discuss being we has an empty house.

Except, DB'ing says to drop the pressure and relationship talks. Case A: She's lying and knows exactly what she's doing--then there's nothing to talk about. When she files, you'll see what she's asking for and can approve or reject it. Your lawyer will advise you of your rights and take any protective measures necessary. Case B: She's being honest and doesn't know what she's doing, as evidenced by the mixed signals. You're pressuring her to make a choice when it probably won't go in your favor. Why?! Drop the pressure.

Take care, Zip!

Last edited by CWarrior; 09/17/19 04:25 PM.

My partner of 2yrs left and moved away. Three months later we reconciled as a family living separately. She says she's committed to making it work, to try to return home, and to be an 'us' forever.
Re: The last straw [Re: CWarrior] #2865634
09/17/19 10:29 PM
09/17/19 10:29 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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Been a bit busy at work as well as around the house. Been meaning to give an update.

CW, agreed, should have never posted it but guess we learn. Since then, seems she is in a much better place towards me. Communication has been much better for some unknown reason. No conversation regarding the wedding but we both were invited. I think she prob rsvpíd by now but not sure what she sent in. Not going to assume anything.

W made calls to me yesterday to discuss dinner which I found odd....not at all normal. Then again today to tell me she was meeting D23 and a feriend of hers to watch a HS soccer game. This is a change from her telling me I have lost any right to ask her what and where she is going or doing. I greatly appreciate her letting me know and feeling the communication is helping us both. Maybe a reason but I canít read into it all too deep, just continuing to work on myself and not react.

As far as a list, it would be unrealistic to even think of bringing this up. It was for my own use trying to help me know what I want. I can see it working if in fact she is willing. Canít get any read from her on what she is thinking or by what she says. I do see actions that tend to leaning towards staying. Could be very temporary or potentially using me to get to the wedding date next summer. Just seems to be a long time to live under the same roof especially when she says sĒshe canít live under these conditions.Ē I think, hmmm, no yelling, no arguing, just pretty much as usual other than she is in the back BR.

Hasnít been put out in the least bit...other than one big issue, that is her trusting me. I donít know why she would leave until she had her plan executed to purchase a home and go. Why go thru all the work twice. Why not just stay status quo until next summer then leave after the wedding. Good news is time is on my side then if I want it to work. This is sooo confusing......

Have become more accepting to what ever may happen. Either way I think in the end I will be much better off, with or without her, as there will be changes in the future.

Thoughts?

Z


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865761
09/19/19 03:01 AM
09/19/19 03:01 AM
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Zip Offline OP
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So this process was s getting harder. My patience is being tried big time. Just trying to get a read on her is like dancing with fire. Look at her wrong or ask a simple question and she is ready to take me on. Just the tone at times is enough to try avoiding her at all costs.

The thought of potentially pulling the trigger and filing myself is creeping into my mind more often than I prefer. This wasnít nor isnít exactly what I thought I would be thinking. Its a bit disturbing although when I think it through, I start wondering just what I will be losing out on. Think about the family and what I will be willing to settle with in a M, and in my heart, know the W will ever get there.

Meeting w the bulldog L tomorrow. Will get more answers regarding the bizarre payments of utilities and my personal qtrly inc taxes. Saying it was because I pay her health ins just isnít cutting it in my mind. Canít come up with the logic behind this and I have to believe her L advised her to do so. She did get additional info from CPA prior to this paying of taxes. Timing seems she got tax returns from CPA then to the L and then pd taxes. And then explained she was having L draw up a doc to allow her to buy a house. Spelling it out, it seems she had a pretty productive week. Maybe the paperwork is getting closer to being filed.

Becoming more mad about the sitch. Guess itís a stage.

Ughh....

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865781
09/19/19 12:32 PM
09/19/19 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Zip
So this process was s getting harder. My patience is being tried big time. Just trying to get a read on her is like dancing with fire. Look at her wrong or ask a simple question and she is ready to take me on. Just the tone at times is enough to try avoiding her at all costs.


Yes exactly, this is why we preach giving them time and space! You can literally do nothing right in her eyes right now, nothing will appease her. So don't even try. Do your own thing and let her do hers. When you do talk to her stick to business. Be polite but detached.

Quote
Think about the family and what I will be willing to settle with in a M, and in my heart, know the W will ever get there.


The W she is right now isn't worth being married to. In the future who knows, she may change back, it happens. But she may not, so that's what makes "standing" tough.


Me: 58 w/ S16, D22, D25
Current R: 4 years
Previous M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:56
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865782
09/19/19 12:54 PM
09/19/19 12:54 PM
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Your situation sounds similar to mine right now.
I know he wants out, but weíre not talking about when and how. Iím trying to not ask questions about the relationship, but itís so difficult. I want answers d@mmit! 😊

Last edited by job; 09/19/19 01:40 PM. Reason: edited language
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2865783
09/19/19 12:57 PM
09/19/19 12:57 PM
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Thornton Online
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I can relate, Zip.

My W is acting the same exact way. Ice cold, no eye contact. In fact, I said goodnight to W and D12 last night and only D12 responded. She canít even be decent enough to say goodnight.


Me 43
He 43
D: 18
D: 12
T: 8 years

Bomb 5/10/2014
Back 7/7/2014

Bomb 2 1/28/2016
Back: 5/2016

Bomb 3 4/3/2017
She moved away with SD: 5/27/2017
Back: 8/1/2018

Bomb 4 9/11/2019
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2866069
09/22/19 01:05 AM
09/22/19 01:05 AM
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Zip Offline OP
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Thanks for the responses!

Been a busy week w b-days Including me, D23, and now W. Dinners for all except getting pushback from W on having hers, not sure why but looks it wonít be Sunday on her BDay. She thinks it best to post phone til maybe Wednesday... who knows. Made reservations but will cancel tomorrow with confirmation from her. Did t want to be caught w/o res as she says I am always late and never plan. Just another action vs words.

Had BDay dinner w D23 and the crew and everything went exceptionally well. W even held hands for a short period. I unfortunately initiated it but I ended it as well after a couple minutes. Wrong I know but guess I was taking her temp as nothing going on since last Saturday after the FB post when she was a bit hot and asked if I might have someone Iíd rather take to the wedding in Oct. she has softened since that conversation.

Did meet w L2 better known as the bulldog. They are destruction specialists and this one fits the bill....she was pretty much ready to destroy the M at a drop of the hat and told me she canít see what I am waitng for as my W has left the M a long time ago. Asked if I was seeing a IC which I said yes. Asked how many sessions and when I said 15-20 she laughed and said she isnít doing her job and I should see a male counselor. When I walked out, oi prayed I would never need her and be in her office again. Hope I am right. She makes her living destroying M and I had to remind myself it is how she is wired. Walked away and started back on th DBing track again.

Still fighting the patience.... need to stay calm and let it flow... still finishing the books and working hard to stay busy.

I feel for all of us...this just stinks.

Thornton, choco and Steve....we will prevail thru this....

Another, I greatly appreciate your input as well as Sandi!!!!

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2866071
09/22/19 01:35 AM
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Hang in there, Zip. Keep that focus on you. Letting your W go to truly figure out her stuff is the healthiest thing you can do. Keep detaching, she just might start to warm up.


Me 43
He 43
D: 18
D: 12
T: 8 years

Bomb 5/10/2014
Back 7/7/2014

Bomb 2 1/28/2016
Back: 5/2016

Bomb 3 4/3/2017
She moved away with SD: 5/27/2017
Back: 8/1/2018

Bomb 4 9/11/2019
Re: The last straw [Re: Thornton] #2866216
09/23/19 09:07 PM
09/23/19 09:07 PM
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Zip Offline OP
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Update on where the sitch is. Seems there has been a change in the W. She has been much more warm and friendly the past week.

Originally Posted by Thornton
Hang in there, Zip. Keep that focus on you. Letting your W go to truly figure out her stuff is the healthiest thing you can do. Keep detaching, she just might start to warm up.


The detaching is a bit tough for me and I have made mistakes on sliding backwards in the sense i show some feelings of afffection to her. Even so she is still warming up. Since the prior weekend, she is acting as close to me as she did prior to the whole blow up. Still different BR which I am okay with but showing some signs of caring towards me.

This month has been BDay month for most of the family, Mine first which came w/ presents and a dinner but no card from the W. I assume she didnt want to write anything down and sign, such as ILY...etc. She did recognize my BD as l said above which i found interesting,. She said she didnt get to the card store but she bought something there which cant be gotten anywhere else in town...,so I have to assume she wasnt up for giving me a card. OK, I can settle for that with all other ways she showed she cared.

Had BD dinner for D24 as listed and all went really well with W and I. She is showing some affection which i would think would not be happening if she was on the eve of dropping paperwork in my lap.... maybe wrong and am cautious about thinking this is potentially changing for the better but do feel a difference from her.

Had the W's BD yesterday. She didn't go to a friend's house for the game which i didn't find too hard to understand. She wanted to relax at home. ALL GOOD,,, I had made reservations for the family for her dinner which she was exited to go. Was ready when I got home and we all had a great time at dinner. Came home and I gave her some gifts with a card. I did sign it with an ILY in there. She liked her presents and got up and gave me a kiss on the lips with a smile.
Lots more than I would have expected from her. Seeing some changes and not ready to ask any specific questions, just going to keep doing what I have been doing, working on myself and keeping calm.

Not sure if I am included in the wedding in Oct but would be surprised if I am not.... although anything could happen between now and then. Her attitude, communication, and inclusion of me in whats going on seems to have greatly improved. Hope I am not in a dream as it will be a real blow if this R goes off track again, I have to take some blame but know she is as well.

Will keep on DBing and working on myself, and working towards better days...

Zip


Me 58 W 58
T 36 yrs. M 32 yrs
D 27 D 23
BD 8/3/19
Waiting for filing from W
Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2866530
09/26/19 09:24 PM
09/26/19 09:24 PM
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Just stay alert and don't get emotionally pulled in by her recent actions. You may never know why she has chosen to become friendlier, but I am suspicious of WW's. If they can appease or fool the LBH just enough to slither under the backdoor of the MR, without work and change.........they will. I think I am safe in saying that most WW's prefer to simply pick up where the relationship left off, without them being held accountable and doing whatever it takes to save the M. Let me rephrase by saying that a WW who is not remorseful and humble will do as little as possible to maintain her position in the M dynamic, b/c her heart has not changed. She can put on a little show, but that doesn't mean anything has changed in her heart. I think it is a big mistake to let a WW come back too quickly too easily.

I know it gets confusing to newcomers b/c we are saying to not have relationship talks........however, I want to inject something along the lines of letting her come back into the MR too easily, without atoning for her actions. In order for true reconciliation to happen, her waywardness needs to be addressed and if she is willing to have family therapy and a transparency plan of action, and whatever else is needed for the MR to succeed........then I think that needs to be communicated at some point. She needs to realize she can't just flip the switch on/off and assume you will be thankful for any crumbs and not require any effort from her. Don't bring it up right now, but at sometime if she seems to settle in as if nothing ever happened, and she gives not explanations......I wouldn't let it go indefinitely before setting some ground rules. Why? B/c that's what WW's prefer to do........act as if nothing ever happened. They want to play nice-nice with the LBH but not do the real heavy work of repairing the damage they caused. Of course, she intends to keep separate bedrooms and keep you in the friend zone, as long as you go along with it. That is a mistake to agree to those conditions, thinking a reconciliation will eventually come. So, keep what I'm saying in the back of your mind. Don't assume she is ready to work on the MR just b/c she has shown some movements of warmth toward you. She may not follow through with the D, for whatever reason........(usually b/c the WW sees more benefit staying with the LBH). This could be nothing more than pretense, b/c you just don't know how the wheels are turning in her head. When there are so outward signs of remorse, no seeking forgiveness, no explanations, no nothing.........don't buy into the act.

Here's the thing you need to remember about a WW. She is incredibly selfish. So, whenever you see her doing something that doesn't make sense to you, just write it down that she is getting something out of it. It's usually temporary, but she gets something emotionally, financially, physically, or whatever. It's all about her. I don't know if he's still around, cause I don't see his posts, but there was a H who had a WW that cake eat like you couldn't believe, and kept him at arms length for years. He went along with whatever shots she called, and last I heard, nothing had changed. That description covers a lot of H's on the board. I hope it won't include you as well.

Keep posting, Zip. ((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: The last straw [Re: sandi2] #2866537
09/27/19 12:11 AM
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@sandi2

First of all, thanks for all your comments and time!

Some followup question to your WW comment above. Do you think if they are doing this consciously (premeditated), or subconsciously (chemically driven)?

Re: The last straw [Re: Zip] #2866852
09/30/19 04:15 PM
09/30/19 04:15 PM
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Quote
@sandi2

First of all, thanks for all your comments and time!

Some followup question to your WW comment above. Do you think if they are doing this consciously (premeditated), or subconsciously (chemically driven)?


These type questions causes me to answer with too many words, but I'll give it my best shot. blush

Waywardness is an act of free volition. It is not forced upon any woman to lose respect for her H. It begins with unresolved resentment that she's tried to push down and go on with her life, but it's still there in her heart. She may carry this unresolved resentment for years, and the H may have no idea. Since her sexual desire is tied to her level of respect for her H, sexual intimacy flies out the window pretty fast. Many couples have a SSM for years, and the H thinks she simply has a low drive.........no, she doesn't respect him, and that's the problem in the bedroom. Eventually, the loss of respect and unresolved resentment will breed and other negative attitudes are born. Selfishness becomes a big proponent, suggesting she deserves better, or this is her time to do what she wants, etc. The little signs of disrespect come more to the surface in forms of rebellion. Eventually the little signs grow into all out rebellion. She rebels against her H, the marriage.

I believe all forms of waywardness begins with a negative mental attitude about her spouse. It's not that she premeditates her negative emotions/attitude, but they are never resolved through forgiveness, therapy, etc. She might try certain solutions she read in a book, but found no success b/c she is either too depressed or has reached the dangerous point of believing her H will never change and she's giving up. Some women may try to let it go of their resentment and succeed, but for the women who can't/won't let it go.......they hang on to it and it brews and the negative junk feeds her mind/soul. So, every time she is let down or disappointed in her H, it's thrown into the big heap of marital lifetime resentments.

I wouldn't say that resentment is premeditated exactly, however, if she already has stinking thinking....she's not going to try and stop it when it comes knocking. She may even come to expect it, especially if her H never attempts to make changes. It's up to the individual to let resentment hang on, roll it over & over, festering in their heart. It's as if she has this little devil sitting on her shoulder whispering in her ear and reminding her of every wrong thing her H has done, and in fact, suggests that he is the problem of all her unhappiness.....and, she deserves better.

All of this grows and sprouts into other things that convinces the H she is completely nuts, and I can readily see how WW's reflect narcissism, especially when their rebellion is flourishing. IMHO, that's why a lot of H's believe it's due to MLC, menopausal, borderline personality, prescriptions, alcohol or something in her past is causing her to behave as if an alien has replaced the real woman he married. I do believe that certain medications can tip the scale, b/c anything that messes with your brain chemicals, is going to affect how you feel and how you process thoughts.

"Do you think if they are doing this consciously (premeditated), or subconsciously (chemically driven)?" Now it's getting deep and complicated. Waywardness definitely comes from a personal choice of that individual. If chemicals are added, it makes matters much worse, IMHO. I think alcohol and drugs can cause people to behave inappropriately or much worse. If she already had a wayward heart, then being under the influence might give her courage to do something more outrageous than if she wasn't taking anything. But what I want people to understand is there's a difference when one is acting under the influence of a chemical, and when one is acting from what's in the heart/soul.

I do believe waywardness is a progression that begins with deep resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. If not checked, it will worsen until she is nothing like the girl you married.

I'll have to stop here, or else I'm going to write a sloppy book. smile I would like very much to hear your story. How about starting a thread?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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