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#2862949 08/27/19 03:15 AM
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Me 31, LBS
H 29, WAS
Son 1.5
Together 9 years
Married 3 years
Left June 2019

Background: I had PPD/A from the birth of our son in Feb 2018 until May 2019. I'm free from clinical depression/anxiety now, but still have to work on anxious patterns of behaviour.

One night H said he was going out after work because he had a lot on his mind. When he got home at midnight, I asked what was wrong and he didn't want to talk, he was tired and wanted space. Incredibly anxious by this point, I pushed him hard enough that he broke down and said he didn't love me anymore, had settled for me, staying with me was the safe option, and there was no future with me. He said he hadn't been happy for years, we had nothing in common beside our son, he had too much disdain for me and couldn't stand me. He said I was controlling, angry, impossible to please, too anxious and he just wanted to go with the flow, be happy, and have his freedom.

A few days later he moved out to stay with a friend and said we would be on a break for a month while figured things out. He opted to see DS1.5 twice a week and on weekends if neither of us had other plans. This didn't exactly lead me to believe that our son was a priority for him. He also said he wanted the opportunity to sleep with other people if it came up. This angered me greatly that he would leave all the parenting responsibility on me while he went out sleeping around with whoever. I've single parented DS1.5 full time while coping with full-time work and running the household since then.

He seemed unable to articulate exactly WHY this was happening (I eventually put the pieces together, will detail below) and why he was not open to counselling or discussion. There was no evident desire on his part to work on the marriage. Any relationship question was met with "I don't know". I asked him why the break, why hadn't he just ended it given the things he'd said. He replied that he didn't want to be a quitter, had a fear of failing, couldn't commit to the decision to divorce, didn't want to let down the people who had supported us.

I asked for another two months to give us some more time to figure things out, and he agreed. He made it to six weeks post-bomb drop before he decided he was sick of living in limbo and had no reason to remain married. He told me he wouldn't do something because society expects it or because people tell him it's the right thing to do. The only thing he values is his own happiness. He wants to ride motorbikes and go karts and be a leader at work and nothing else matters.

Over the past three months, I've embraced counselling, books, courses etc to figure out exactly what I had done wrong to make him want to leave. I apologised, wrote a couple of letters, gave him small gifts, left him alone, asked if he wanted to talk, poured my heart out - most of which was ignored. I realise now this was unproductive and trying to control the outcome of the situation. I've owned my faults and continue to do so. I WAS controlling, angry, impossible to please, and too anxious. But I've made great strides towards healing these flaws. I read The Empowered Wife and The Divorce Remedy which put me on my current path.

If I'm being honest the marriage had been rocky since our son was born. But I assumed that was normal stress of having a baby, sleep deprivation, lack of sex, and me having PPD/A. My mental health was down the drain for a long time. I frequently thought about driving my car off the road or shaking the baby. He said he didn't care about the context or the circumstances and that it wasn't just the baby - I hadn't been the wife I was supposed to be and have never tried hard enough to be good enough for him.

I have never felt so hurt and sad and worthless as I have the past three months. I understand his feelings on an intellectual level. I don't understand why he has been so destructive in the way he's gone about it. His way of dealing with his feelings was to withdraw and stew over them until it was too late. Which is not a mature way to handle anything, especially not the end of a marriage. And then lash out knowing it would destroy my self worth and self esteem on the way out the door. At least that's what it felt like.


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scout12 #2862961 08/27/19 06:20 AM
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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scout12 #2863139 08/28/19 04:23 AM
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Hi scout,

I’m so sorry this is happening to you. A lot of what you are describing is very similar to what has happened with my H, and I completely relate to what you are feeling. I’m no pro at this, but there are a lot of very supportive and helpful people here. I hope I can be one of them for you!

scout12 #2863253 08/28/19 06:11 PM
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Scout, you are not alone. You will get tons of support and advice from people on this site. The more active you are, the more support you will receive. This is a loooooong process, so settle in. Don't give up hope though.

The bad news is your marriage is really in trouble. The good news is that if you really listen to people on this site, it MIGHT be saved, but more importantly, YOU will be better off.

Good for you for self reflecting. Without understanding our own flaws, there is no hope of reconciliation.

I'll give you two pieces of advice. The first is stop contacting him, giving him small gifts, apologizing, etc. They make you look weak. You can't "nice guy" yourself back into a happy marriage. He needs space, and you have to give it to him. Others have said it better than I ever could, but in essence, you need to act like his leaving doesn't really matter to you.

The other piece of advice is you need to take care of you. GAL like crazy. Find new hobbies. Reconnect with old friends. Start going to the gym more. Get a makeover. Travel with and without S1.5. These things are important, because whether he comes back or not, they will make YOU a better person, and a better parent. TELL him it's important that he has a close relationship with S1.5, and he needs to take him half the time, so you can go ride motorbikes and go karts and sleep with other people or whatever, too. (He's living in a fantasy world thinking he'll have no responsibilities, but you need to make him realize he is responsible for your son, too.)

Ok, one more. See a lawyer, and make sure you are getting all the spousal support and child support you are entitled to. There is no reason you should suffer more financially than you already are just because he's a dick.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
scout12 #2863294 08/28/19 10:32 PM
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The current situation: H came over last week to spend time with DS1.5 and talk about our separation. My stepdad mediated the chat and despite my resolve to be calm, I couldn't stop the hurt feelings spewing out of my mouth. It was literal word vomit while I bawled my eyes out. He stonewalled and got defensive and accusatory, saying "are we here to talk or are you just gonna attack me?" He totally deserved the dressing down he got in front of my stepdad, who he respects and admires, and I hope he felt ashamed of how he has acted.

But eventually we both mellowed out and relaxed enough to make jokes with each other. I asked him if he cared about my happiness and he said yes. I asked him what he wanted from life and he said he didn't know. I asked him if he wished it had worked out and he said yes. But despite all that, he is done. So I simply said, okay. I gave him a kiss goodbye and joked "have a nice life" and he said "wow!" and we laughed. As freaking hard as that conversation was, I feel like it unblocked us somehow. I'm focusing on self-care for my own sake and DS1.5's happiness. I've accepted that this is our reality now and all I can do is live in the moment and be my best self.

Since then, when he comes to see DS1.5, I've been able to be genuinely friendly for the first time without artifice or awkwardness. 'Take the wind from his sails' is my mantra. I won't give him more ammunition against me. All my negotiating, convincing, pleading, rationalising, and anger becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in his mind and only reinforces his conviction to end the marriage. Being a calm zen goddess gives me the chance to practice my self-improvement skills and be a better co-parent. If it addresses the complaints he had with the marriage and makes him realise what he's losing, and gives him a healthy reality check, that's a bonus.

I feel in control of my own life again, but I'm sure there will be many hiccups, bumps and potholes on this journey. At this stage, my desire is to reconcile and his desire is to separate. Do I believe both of these viewpoints are set in stone? No. I'm looking forward to learning from the wise folks of this forum on how to navigate the next steps. We cannot divorce until a year post-separation. He confided in his parents that things might be different in a year, so who knows where this might end up. I am implementing all the DB and EW skills in the meantime.


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scout12 #2863299 08/28/19 10:56 PM
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The current situation: H came over last week to spend time with DS1.5 and talk about our separation. My stepdad mediated the chat and despite my resolve to be calm, I couldn't stop the hurt feelings spewing out of my mouth. It was literal word vomit while I bawled my eyes out. He stonewalled and got defensive and accusatory, saying "are we here to talk or are you just gonna attack me?" He totally deserved the dressing down he got in front of my stepdad, who he respects and admires, and I hope he felt ashamed of how he has acted.

But eventually we both mellowed out and relaxed enough to make jokes with each other. I asked him if he cared about my happiness and he said yes. I asked him what he wanted from life and he said he didn't know. I asked him if he wished it had worked out and he said yes. But despite all that, he is done. So I simply said, okay. I gave him a kiss goodbye and joked "have a nice life" and he said "wow!" and we laughed. As freaking hard as that conversation was, I feel like it unblocked us somehow. I'm focusing on self-care for my own sake and DS1.5's happiness. I've accepted that this is our reality now and all I can do is live in the moment and be my best self.

Since then, when he comes to see DS1.5, I've been able to be genuinely friendly for the first time without artifice or awkwardness. 'Take the wind from his sails' is my mantra. I won't give him more ammunition against me. All my negotiating, convincing, pleading, rationalising, and anger becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in his mind and only reinforces his conviction to end the marriage. Being a calm zen goddess gives me the chance to practice my self-improvement skills and be a better co-parent. If it addresses the complaints he had with the marriage and makes him realise what he's losing, and gives him a healthy reality check, that's a bonus.

I feel in control of my own life again, but I'm sure there will be many hiccups, bumps and potholes on this journey. At this stage, my desire is to reconcile and his desire is to separate. Do I believe both of these viewpoints are set in stone? No. I'm looking forward to learning from the wise folks of this forum on how to navigate the next steps. We cannot divorce until a year post-separation, which is July 2020. He confided in his parents that things might be different in a year, so who knows where this might end up. I am implementing all the DB and EW skills in the meantime.


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HopeCA #2863300 08/28/19 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by HopeCA
Hi scout,

I’m so sorry this is happening to you. A lot of what you are describing is very similar to what has happened with my H, and I completely relate to what you are feeling. I’m no pro at this, but there are a lot of very supportive and helpful people here. I hope I can be one of them for you!


Thank you, I have read through your thread and wish I could give you a big hug! Don't give up.


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Jim1234 #2863301 08/28/19 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim1234
Scout, you are not alone. You will get tons of support and advice from people on this site. The more active you are, the more support you will receive. This is a loooooong process, so settle in. Don't give up hope though.

The bad news is your marriage is really in trouble. The good news is that if you really listen to people on this site, it MIGHT be saved, but more importantly, YOU will be better off.

Good for you for self reflecting. Without understanding our own flaws, there is no hope of reconciliation.

I'll give you two pieces of advice. The first is stop contacting him, giving him small gifts, apologizing, etc. They make you look weak. You can't "nice guy" yourself back into a happy marriage. He needs space, and you have to give it to him. Others have said it better than I ever could, but in essence, you need to act like his leaving doesn't really matter to you.

The other piece of advice is you need to take care of you. GAL like crazy. Find new hobbies. Reconnect with old friends. Start going to the gym more. Get a makeover. Travel with and without S1.5. These things are important, because whether he comes back or not, they will make YOU a better person, and a better parent. TELL him it's important that he has a close relationship with S1.5, and he needs to take him half the time, so you can go ride motorbikes and go karts and sleep with other people or whatever, too. (He's living in a fantasy world thinking he'll have no responsibilities, but you need to make him realize he is responsible for your son, too.)

Ok, one more. See a lawyer, and make sure you are getting all the spousal support and child support you are entitled to. There is no reason you should suffer more financially than you already are just because he's a dick.


Thanks Jim, great advice. It's taken three months of limbo, but I think I've reached a place of acceptance and detachment. I know everyone says that, though! I've said everything that needs to be said to H, he knows how I feel; so now I'm focusing on ME. I genuinely wish him the best with his next steps and accept that he needs to focus on his own happiness for now. In time he might see what he's missing, but if not, DS and I will be too busy being happy to miss him.

(Not to say I don't miss him - I do, of course. But the only acceptable way for him to come back requires him to make his own seismic changes to his life, his values, his attitude etc, and I don't really believe at this stage he's capable of that. I do have hope that this situation makes him do his own 180, but that's part of his journey and his timeline, and I have no control over that.

Day to day, I am actually really happy and content with my life. I've lost a lot of weight (the divorce diet is no joke!) and I put makeup on and dress nicely every day. Especially on the days H comes around to see DS. I'm planning a lot of house redecoration and backyard projects, taking DS on a camping trip with new friends, reconnecting with old friends, going for after-work drinks, and generally saying YES to life. Which is a big 180 from the sad, isolated hermit I let myself become!

Yes, I've consulted with a lawyer so I have legal advice in my back pocket. I have a fantastic job with a great income, so I'm confident I can support myself and DS, buy H out of the house, set up our future, and still have enough to enjoy the little things in life. Flowers, brunches, outings, etc smile


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scout12 #2863336 08/29/19 07:24 AM
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Scout, it seems like you've got the right idea. Generally, you want to be the woman only a fool would leave. Just be sure you are doing the things you are doing for YOU and not for him. He'll see thru that in a second.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
scout12 #2863684 08/31/19 11:17 PM
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Today is Father's Day. H came over this morning to pick up S1.5 and take him to spend the day with his family. I was dressed prettily with makeup on and ready to leave once he arrived. He came in and started tidying son's toys, then went into my room to rummage through the bathroom cupboards for aspirin. I have asked him in the past to stay out of my room but more often than not he will go in and make my bed, tidy up etc after I leave the house. I had put the daycare crafts and present from son on the table and he said thank you for the gifts. I replied they're from son. Then I tried to leave and S1.5 started screaming and clinging to me. This upset me and in my efforts to reassure son I fear I let my emotions get the better of me. I told son that mum and dad aren't spending time together anymore but we still love him. I said I wished I could come with him but I couldn't. I said I was sorry this was happening but it would get easier. Then I gave him a kiss and left. I regret being passive aggressive but seeing my baby upset triggered me. This would have been a lovely day spent with ILs in the past and now it's a source of pain for everyone involved. I'm angry that H is putting us all through this as a result of his selfishness.


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scout12 #2863687 08/31/19 11:24 PM
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Today is Father's Day. H came over this morning to pick up S1.5 and take him to spend the day with his family. I was dressed prettily with makeup on and ready to leave once he arrived. He came in and started tidying son's toys, then went into my room to rummage through the bathroom cupboards for aspirin. I have asked him in the past to stay out of my room but more often than not he will go in and make my bed, tidy up etc after I leave the house. I had put the daycare crafts and present from son on the table and he said thank you for the gifts. I replied they're from son. Then I tried to leave and S1.5 started screaming and clinging to me. This upset me and in my efforts to reassure son I fear I let my emotions get the better of me. I told son that mum and dad aren't spending time together anymore but we still love him. I said I wished I could come with him but I couldn't. I said I was sorry this was happening but it would get easier. Then I gave him a kiss and left. I regret being passive aggressive but seeing my baby upset triggered me. This would have been a lovely day spent with ILs in the past and now it's a source of pain for everyone involved. I'm angry that H is putting us all through this as a result of his selfishness.


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scout12 #2863688 08/31/19 11:26 PM
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Sorry for the double posts. Still getting the hang of posting on mobile.


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scout12 #2863699 09/01/19 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by scout12
I was dressed prettily with makeup on and ready to leave once he arrived.


Good for you.

Originally Posted by scout12
He came in and started tidying son's toys, then went into my room to rummage through the bathroom cupboards for aspirin. I have asked him in the past to stay out of my room but more often than not he will go in and make my bed, tidy up etc after I leave the house.


Can I suggest that when he starts this behavior, you tell him straight up to get out of your room?

Originally Posted by scout12
Then I tried to leave and S1.5 started screaming and clinging to me. This upset me and in my efforts to reassure son I fear I let my emotions get the better of me. I told son that mum and dad aren't spending time together anymore but we still love him. I said I wished I could come with him but I couldn't. I said I was sorry this was happening but it would get easier. Then I gave him a kiss and left.


Kudos. I don't see how you could have handled it any better. Your S's world is rocked, too, and he's trying to exert some control over the situation, and it seems like you handled it with love and respect for your son. I suspect that after 5 minutes with H, your S was just fine, and back to being himself. [/quote]

Originally Posted by scout12
now it's a source of pain for everyone involved. I'm angry that H is putting us all through this as a result of his selfishness.


Yes it is. And it stinks. And you will get through it and be a better stronger version of you.

Just a thought... I don't know if you are participating on anyone else's threads, but the more you participate, the more help you will get.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
scout12 #2863700 09/01/19 03:22 AM
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BTW, you might want to read some of Steve85's threads. He's going thru a rough patch right now, but he really has a good handle on DBing, and reading through his situation can provide you with some valuable insights that you could apply to your own.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
scout12 #2863742 09/01/19 10:23 PM
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I knew the first separated special occasion would be hard. Throughout the day his sister was sending photos of the kids to our family group chat. I know she was doing it to be kind because I wasn't there. It brought me to tears to be missing out on all the family fun, even though I made plans to amuse myself for the day. My friend came over and we watched The Office and made brownies. I was washing my car and sweeping the garage when H came back with S, and he immediately started helping by taking the bins out and tidying up. When we all went inside he asked me if I wanted a hug. I was caught off guard and said "why" and he just shrugged so I said "no thanks". I wonder if father's day got to him emotionally, or his guilty conscience is kicking in, but his attitude towards me has started to turn from cold and aloof to something warmer.

I think I conducted myself with dignity and generosity today despite all these strong emotions whirling around my head. I am learning to keep a handle on my anxiety and not to be so reactive. His actions don't determine my mood.

It's H's birthday this week. I organised a gift a while ago and still plan to give it to him from S and I. I had some professional photos of him riding his motorbike framed and will just leave them on the dining table for him to take home. That way there's no awkwardness or expectations around his reaction. I plan to write on the tag "For your new place" so he doesn't think I'm being emotionally manipulative. There are no strings attached to this gift. It's not romantic given it's from Son and I. I just feel it's the kind thing to do.


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scout12 #2863828 09/03/19 01:32 AM
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H sent me an email yesterday asking for a list of assets/expenses/belongings so we can take steps toward splitting everything up. He also included a list of recent purchases I made from our joint account (a bill, restaurant meals, a book) saying they weren't appropriate expenses for the joint account. This triggered my anxiety as he has a history of being financially controlling and REALLY doubled down on this while I was on maternity leave, leaving me with very little of my own money to spend on self-care which greatly contributed to my PPA/D.

Additionally, the agreement during separation was to stop tracking each other's purchases, stop moving funds to individual accounts, and have every income/expense go through the joint account. So I felt this was disingenuous and hypocritical given that he has also spent money on similar items through this account in the last three months, most recently a hotel room.

I worked through my anxious reaction by talking with my support person before responding. I ignored the accusation entirely. Replied saying "Here's the list!" and "I would love for you to just remove your income/expenses from the accounts so I can carry on without any hiccups or changing anything. Thanks!" I feel like I handled things quite well. I am really looking forward to having financial freedom from this man. It will be a relief to not have him lurking in my individual spending account anymore, especially as I do not have access to his individual spending account. That's an inequity that always bothered me.


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scout12 #2863831 09/03/19 04:47 AM
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I don't understand about the joint account. You "have every income/expense go through the joint account"? But then there are "recent purchases I made from our joint account (a bill, restaurant meals, a book) saying they weren't appropriate expenses for the joint account"?

I suggest you separate finances ASAP for two reasons.... it simplifies your life because you are no longer tied to him, and it helps H realize you're going to be fine. Also, if you haven't seen a lawyer regarding alimony and child support, you need to. Separate accounts will help with that as well.

Good for you! It sounds like you really handled your interaction well, giving him the information he wanted in an upbeat, happy manner.

Just one thought regarding the gifts.... If it is truly no strings, fine, but if you are secretly tying strings to it, it's a bad idea.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
Jim1234 #2863834 09/03/19 05:34 AM
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Thanks for the reply, and your previous one as well, Jim! I am definitely reading through multiple threads and do intend to participate once I feel I have something to contribute.

With regards to the joint account, it was the 'expenses' account pre-separation - groceries, fuel, bills, as well as both incomes. We each have individual accounts which were our 'spending' accounts pre-separation, into which regular deposits were made from the joint account. It's H's belief that my individual purchases should still be coming from my 'spending' account, which is not what the arrangement was post-separation - all previous financial setups were suspended. A small thing, but frustrating. I'm glad I didn't take the bait.

I'm very much looking forward to the logistical elements of the separation to be settled.

Feeling a little sad today. I've felt safe confiding in my MIL during this separation and she encouraged it because H refused to confide in her, so she asked me to help her understand the situation. I've poured my heart out to her, cried on her shoulder, she's cried to me and said how disappointed she is in her son. We've been very honest with each other. She sent me a text today saying she hoped I had a good day on Sunday (Father's Day). I fear I was a little too honest about my feelings, saying "It was a hard day unfortunately, I'm quite angry that he is causing everyone pain with his decision." She replied "Sorry you feel that way, hope things get better. Love MIL and FIL xx" After giving it some thought, I texted back "Thanks MIL. I'm sorry, I should have kept that angry thought to myself." I have to realise that H is still her son regardless of his actions and that I need to respect her feelings and boundaries.


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Hi scout I’d suggest really keeping things to yourself in front of the in-laws. Db principles apply to the ex’s family too. Good luck!


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
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Originally Posted by scout12

With regards to the joint account, it was the 'expenses' account pre-separation - groceries, fuel, bills, as well as both incomes. We each have individual accounts which were our 'spending' accounts pre-separation, into which regular deposits were made from the joint account. It's H's belief that my individual purchases should still be coming from my 'spending' account, which is not what the arrangement was post-separation - all previous financial setups were suspended. A small thing, but frustrating. I'm glad I didn't take the bait.


I have to realise that H is still her son regardless of his actions and that I need to respect her feelings and boundaries.


OK that financial arrangement makes more sense.

As close as you might have been to MIL, that relationship is changing just like your marital relationship, and probably not for the best. My W and mom talked almost every day. They were very close. That all ended with the divorce. It was a surprise to W. But don't tell MIL anything that you wouldn't want getting back to H.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
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H sent me a message yesterday (his birthday). He said he was sick and didn't want to pass it on, so he wouldn't be coming to see Teddy this morning (6:30am-10am as per parenting plan). He asked if I could take him to daycare or if he needed to arrange childcare.

I replied "That [censored]! Nope, it's no extra effort for me to get S ready and drop him off."

Then once I thought about it a little more... Am I suspicious for thinking he was actually going out or away for the night for his birthday, and that it was just too inconvenient for him to show up as planned? I just find it hard to believe him. He claims that S is his priority, but every action since he moved out has proven otherwise. Regardless, it's his loss, and I'm glad for the extra time I got with S this morning.


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Oops, [censored] = "svcks", I forgot that was a no-no word.


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scout12 #2864124 09/05/19 02:06 AM
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Just remember, actions speak louder than words, and believe nothing they say and only half of what you see.

And it [censored] about svcks


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S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
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Originally Posted by Jim1234
Just remember, actions speak louder than words, and believe nothing they say and only half of what you see.

And it [censored] about svcks


I will keep it in mind, cheers Jim.

After noticing some activity in our joint bank account from H, I sent an email to say “hopefully we’re on the same page with our expectations of the legal separation, but I just want to share my understanding of the process”. Basically that I thought we’d review the asset/liability spreadsheet he’d asked me to provide, negotiate, and come to an agreement in writing, before making any financial or legal changes. I added a caveat that it wasn’t my intention to go on the offensive or control the outcome, just to get some clarity. I also added that while the decision to separate was his alone, we should conduct the business of separation together. I don’t know whether this was DB correctly, but I felt it was necessary.

He responded saying he understood and it made perfect sense to have things in black and white. That he couldn’t thank me enough for putting the spreadsheet together. There were some disparities in the estimated figures I’d provided (in his opinion) and he’d adjusted accordingly. He did agree wholesale with the split of belongings I’d suggested. The figures he’d provided are (in my opinion) ridiculously inflated and require me to pay him MUCH more than my lawyer said he’s entitled to in the settlement, so I’ve made another appointment with her to review his proposal.

I was a little terse in my email response - like I said, his control over our finances is a big trigger for me. I should have talked it over with my support person to manage the anxiety before firing back an email. Oh well. I simply said I’d need time to review with the right people, and that I’d prefer to negotiate in person if he could let me know a day that suited. I also said I’d really appreciate him prioritising the removal of my legal/financial responsibility for the brand new car we purchased in January that he’s been exclusively driving since we separated. How did I do?


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While the legal separation chugs along slowly over email, things in person and over message continue to mellow out. He responds quite warmly to messages about our son and thanks me for sending photos. Last night I sent him a message at 3am to say I thought I’d heard a prowler around the house and I was a bit frightened. He responded when he got up for work at 4:30am to say it was okay, was probably just the wind, he’d heard noises at his place too. He added a smiley face, which is new. I wrote back when I got up with S1.5 in the morning.

Me: It was so freaky! Door was banging, rocks crunching out the side, deck creaking. Sounded like footsteps. S wanted to say good morning [I sent a video of S]

H: Yeah woke up so many times last night. Awwwww thanks for that, he's a cutey

An hour passed and he sent another message - the first time he’s initiated friendly conversation over message since he moved out.

H: Where'd you end up deciding to go camping? [I’m taking S away with some friends next weekend]

I replied and he said “Nice! Never heard of it hahaha”

It’s SO nice to have communication that isn’t stressful or sad! This is a huge improvement even on a month ago when he would ignore or send hasty/terse messages no matter the tone of the conversation. I’ve made a big effort to be non-threatening and pleasant in my own messages, regardless of his tone or the topic. As I get more detached and let go of expectations, it becomes easier. I don’t know if this is good DB-ing, but I also make a point to thank him when he goes out his way to do housework when he comes to visit S. Smiley faces and laughing on his part is new and nice.

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Sounds like you're on the right track, and doing well. It sounds like your interactions are good for the most part. My only suggestion is that you not respond right away to his texts or emails. That way, 1) you are never responding in anger, and 2) it shows that you have a life and aren't hanging out by the phone waiting for him to deign to contact you. Oh, and don't hang out by the phone waiting for him to contact you.

You will have to find someone else to text in the future, though, about strange noises around your house, so you might as well figure that out now.

Also, yes, he's being more pleasant. It makes the whole process easier if you aren't at each other's throats. Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that means things are on the mend. It probably doesn't, though I hate to bring that up. That MIGHT come, but much, much later.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
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Originally Posted by Jim1234
Sounds like you're on the right track, and doing well. It sounds like your interactions are good for the most part. My only suggestion is that you not respond right away to his texts or emails. That way, 1) you are never responding in anger, and 2) it shows that you have a life and aren't hanging out by the phone waiting for him to deign to contact you. Oh, and don't hang out by the phone waiting for him to contact you.

You will have to find someone else to text in the future, though, about strange noises around your house, so you might as well figure that out now.

Also, yes, he's being more pleasant. It makes the whole process easier if you aren't at each other's throats. Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that means things are on the mend. It probably doesn't, though I hate to bring that up. That MIGHT come, but much, much later.


You are so right, Jim, and that's a lesson I'm still learning. Reply in haste, repent at leisure.

I'm under no illusion that he has any doubts about his decision to separate, which is fine for now.


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It was H's day with S yesterday (he takes him 8-5 every second Sunday). He messaged me at 7:30am to say the hot water was out at his friend's place, he'd be 15 minutes late, and was there any chance he could shower at mine before they left for the day. I had plans to leave at 8am, but I just said that's OK, thanks for checking with me.

He arrived 20 mins late and said he was going to jump in the shower, was I OK to watch S? I just stared... Eventually I said "I'm not your babysitter, this is your time with him. I have to figure out how to shower with him on my time, so you can too". He mumbled that he thought that was the point of the message he sent.

I just walked away and left the house. I'm fed up with him blaming me when he is actually a victim of his own assumptions. If he had explicitly asked me to stick around and watch him, that would have been different (I still would have said no, though, as I am too busy GAL). It's infuriating. His communication skills are so poor, I have no idea how he manages people effectively at his job. He is so deficient in all the important ways.

I ended up having a great day. I went on a very low-key casual date, which I enjoyed, but left feeling a little sad. I don't think I'm ready to consider moving on with someone else yet. I guess that's obvious or I wouldn't be on this forum. I also painted a chalkboard wall in my house for S and made plans to build a sandpit and veggie garden in the backyard.

When H brought S home, he came inside and said the wall looked really good. He thanked me for the framed photos I gave him for his birthday. He had bought S a horrible electric four wheeler and assembled it while I played outside with S. Sidenote: he has sent S home with new clothes, books and toys the last two weekends - guilty conscience? When he finished building the bike, he asked S to say goodbye and S became upset thinking that I was leaving. I was in the middle of reassuring him when H just walked out without a word.

I am trying to be fair when I reassure S but I'm not going to lie to him either. If that makes H feel bad, so be it. He doesn't make any effort to reassure or comfort S himself, so I handle that emotional labour on my own. I just said "Mama's not leaving, this is mama's house and S's house and we are staying here. Dad doesn't live here anymore so he is leaving." I don't know if this was good DB-ing, but it felt authentic at the time.


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scout12 #2864613 09/08/19 11:38 PM
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Scout— the more I read about your H, the more he reminds me of mine. It’s quite amazing actually. The terrible communication, the assumptions, ugh. I’ve even asked myself many times how my H can possibly manage people at work!
As for the way you handled things when your son became upset, I don’t know if it’s good DBing, but I do think it was good parenting. I think that young children need very concrete information to reassure them during all of this, and that’s what you gave your son. You stated nothing but true facts, and you gave him comforting information digestible for such a little one.
You seem like you are handling all of this really, really well smile

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I think the whole episode went well for you. You can accommodate his reasonable requests without being a doormat. Good for you.

As far as dating, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but if you're not ready, don't. There's no rush. Some people will tell you to "get out there!", but YOU have to be comfortable. I have to tell you though, from my experience that if you haven't moved on from your marriage, things can get very complicated, and hurtful for everyone involved.

I'm sure you are aware of this but it sounds like he's trying to ease his conscience by buying things for your son. It's too bad, because in the long run, it won't work.

Also, I'll second what HopeCA said, about it being good parenting, and handling all of this really well. Keep it up!


M:23 T:26
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S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
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A question for vets... I am in a group chat with H's family where we share photos of S and his cousin. I go through phases of sharing lots of photos and sharing nothing. I can't decide which is best. I don't want to cut his family off especially as I have 100% custody of S, and I had hoped that H would see the photos and think about what he was missing. On the other hand, sometimes I think it might have more impact on H to not have such easy access to photos and for him to wonder what we are up to.

Thoughts? So far I've been the bigger person and kept sharing photos for his family's sake, but I've been rethinking that lately. Its almost as if H is getting away with breaking up our family bonds without consequence. He isnt getting a proper taste of the life shattering effects of his choice and what it will be like once we divorce. I'm conflicted about this.


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scout12 #2864953 09/11/19 12:03 PM
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I think this is less about your H and more about you and your S. Share photos if you want to share, don't if you don't. You want your child to have supportive people in his life. You can't worry about how your H will react or if he'll worry about what he's missing.


H 37
W 31
S 2

T: 7
M: 4

BD 12/18
Separated 2/19
Living back together 04/06/2019
W Moved out again 07/15/2019
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My XMIL and I own my house together and she lives in a suite in the lower level. We even took a trip together with my kids over Spring Break. She is a great support and it devastated her when my XH’s behaviour came to light. She did not want this for him or for her grandkids but, like me, she had no choice. Regardless of what my XH does, she will always be my kids’ grandma. And they deserve to be fully involved with all their family members so she will always have access to them. Cutting his family out of the “picture” punishes them not him. He’s already left. He’s doing what he wants. I’d continue to share the photos if I were you and not worry about how it is affecting him. Choose better not bitter. In the end, when your emotions have settled and you are more detached from him, you will be glad you did. (((HUGS)))

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As long as you're doing or not doing it because you want to, and not for any reason regarding H, you're doing the right thing.

Think about it this way..... If H just fell off the planet and disappeared instead of leaving you, would you still send pictures and interact with your in-laws? Let the answer to that question be your guide.


M:23 T:26
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S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
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Thanks for the advice, all. I am continuing to share photos with his family for now.

Nothing much to update from last week. It would be hard for me to feel MORE detached at this point and I do believe I'm happier now than I was with him. I'm still DB-ing, but it's more of a thought experiment at this point than a reconciliation technique.

H is supposed to pick S up from daycare at 3:30pm Tuesdays and spend time with him until I get home at 5:30pm. I got off the train last Tuesday at 5:15pm and was walking past daycare to my car when I saw H's car turning out of the carpark. He had only just picked him up. I don't know why I'm surprised each time he demonstrates that S isn't his priority, because it keeps happening, but I am. It's sad for S, but doesn't have any impact on me. Just thought it was curious. Later at home, he asked when we could discuss splitting our bills so he could start renting his own place. I said I needed some time to sort out my budget and we could talk the following week. He agreed and asked if I needed anything before he left. I said no thank you and he left without saying goodbye.

When H came over for his Thursday morning visit with S, I was dozing on the lounge instead of getting ready for work. I had the day off, but didn't mention it. He seemed concerned, asking if I was unwell and if I needed anything from the chemist, and would I like him to take S out of the house so I could rest? I received the offer graciously but turned it down, saying I would just catch up on sleep for an hour and then get up to run some errands. He went about his morning with S while I dozed, gently reminding S that "mama is sleeping" and redirecting him when he got noisy. Eventually I got up and was enjoying a cup of tea on the deck outside while H got S ready for daycare. They came to say goodbye and H hesitated when I asked S for a hug, saying "He'll just get upset if I give him to you." That annoyed me a little but I didn't say anything, just hugged S and wished him a great day. H took him back and left without a word. Five minutes later he came back inside. I called out "what did you forget?" and he held up his jacket as he walked past. Again, leaving without a word, so I called out "bye" and only then did he respond in kind.

I don't understand the rudeness, but nor do I don't let it affect me.

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scout12 #2865418 09/16/19 01:19 AM
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On a more mystical note... My friend recommended her psychic to me and I thought, what the hell, I have an open mind and at the very least I love talking about myself and my life. So I met her last week.

Whether the psychic stuff is true or not, she was very insightful and easy to talk to. She said I was strong and singular like a tall pine tree and I have great resilience in my aura. That she currently sees me riding a bike in the wrong gear, ie. expending energy without corresponding results. But there will be justice in my future. I'll also focus my energy on learning or studying in future, and she sees artwork or creativity in my life.

She told me that the breakup happened because H and I had different agendas and that there was a lot of deception in the relationship on his part, meaning I was under the assumption that we had the same motivations - family, security, stability, love, commitment - for the choices we made together, but she felt he was motivated by the trappings of success and status because his soul is not content with itself. The way she put it was he “hired” me because he admired my strength and values and wanted me to “save” him, but when I failed to make him happy, he “fired" me and moved onto the next source of happiness. This resonated strongly with me.

Might seem a bit out there, but we had a great 2 1/2 hour chat! She also pulled two runes from a bag at the end - Renewal and Fire/Knowledge. Both seemed apropos.

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Last week we agreed to sit down sometime this week to discuss the proposed separation agreement. Then I realised there was no reason to wait and have the conversation in person, so I sent H an email on Tuesday outlining what steps I'd be taking to sort my personal finances and asking if he was happy to work on the property settlement in the background of sorting out our immediate financial issues. He said he was all for working things out ASAP and wanted the settlement done quickly so he had access to the funds. I didn't reply, knowing that I would be seeing him at my home later that afternoon while he spent time with S.

We then had the following message exchange:

H: How was camping? I have to [do something for work] on Thursday. Is it OK if I see S on Friday morning instead? Also when suits you to go through finances?

M: It was awesome, we loved it! Friday is fine. I actually just sent you an email about finances.

H: Just a heads up, I won't get to pickup S until 5pm today [he is supposed to see him 3:30-5:30pm], work is busy and there's an accident on the highway.

M: Ugh, traffic [censored]!

H: Times like this a motorbike is worth its weight in gold

M: Definitely wink

[The bike comment has backstory - one of the reasons he cited for leaving me was because I asked him to sell his motorbike when S was born because a) it was impractical and b) it was unsafe. He agreed on the condition he could buy a dirt bike instead (I agreed and he did). He now claims that I prevented him from fulfilling his dreams of motorsports and I forced him to give up the thing that made him happiest.]

Once I got home, H asked if I got his email and started trying to talk about finances. I said that I was happy to do so but now wasn't a good time with S running around and me trying to get dinner ready. He didn't really respect that and kept asking questions. It was almost as if he wanted me to tell him what to do and how to go about doing it. I just said, it doesn't bother me what you do or how you do it - I just need confirmation of the outcome.

H wasn't happy about child support being backdated to when he moved out, or the fact I said I wouldn't be contributing to his car loan anymore, so he had a tantrum and said he wouldn't be paying the mortgage anymore. This despite his previous agreement to pay until he found a place to rent, and his legal responsibility to do so. I just said fine, do what you want. I said the property settlement would take time and require legal processes. He said he needed the money because now he has child support, rent, bond, new furniture and other expenses to think about. As if he's the victim in this situation! I said he already has access to half our savings, not an insignificant amount either, to set himself up. I believed I missed an opportunity to validate there, but I was feeling very reactionary and defensive. Ugh.

I will be absolutely fine though. I'm still feeling really positive. I'm picking out furniture and decor now that I have access to my savings fund and can't wait to get going with all that.


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scout12 #2865797 09/19/19 03:37 PM
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Scout, a couple of things leapt out at me in your last post.

The first was that you forced him to give up the thing that made him happiest. I don't know the full story, but it sounds like revisionist history. Don't buy into it.

Don't worry about missing an opportunity to validate. It sounds like you handled yourself pretty well though out and you will have plenty of opportunities to validate. In the big picture, missing one opportunity doesn't really matter. Try not to make it a habit, and you'll be fine. What helped me when W would start complaining about things was a gentle reminder that I'm not the one who wanted this divorce.

Lastly, be very cautious about spending money now on things you don't absolutely need, because you may very well find you will need that money in the future. You can only spend that dollar once, and is updating the decor really vital? More vital than paying your lawyer?


M:23 T:26
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S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
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Originally Posted by Jim1234
Scout, a couple of things leapt out at me in your last post.

The first was that you forced him to give up the thing that made him happiest. I don't know the full story, but it sounds like revisionist history. Don't buy into it.

Don't worry about missing an opportunity to validate. It sounds like you handled yourself pretty well though out and you will have plenty of opportunities to validate. In the big picture, missing one opportunity doesn't really matter. Try not to make it a habit, and you'll be fine. What helped me when W would start complaining about things was a gentle reminder that I'm not the one who wanted this divorce.

Lastly, be very cautious about spending money now on things you don't absolutely need, because you may very well find you will need that money in the future. You can only spend that dollar once, and is updating the decor really vital? More vital than paying your lawyer?


I don't put much stock in his claims. His narrative is based in truth but blown way out of proportion.

With regards to decor, I had some new family photos done of S and I, and am getting them printed to hang up around the house. Nothing extravagant smile I do also have to buy furniture to replace the things that H is taking to his new place.


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My ILs wanted to see me and S for lunch earlier this week. We talked about the custody arrangement and child support, which was probably a dumb idea on my part because I need to remember that their loyalty is to their son and not me. They questioned whether it was fair for H to backpay child support when he has still been paying the mortgage for the last three months while living elsewhere. Um, yes, both are his legal obligation.

Then they asked why H can't have S (1.5yo) overnight starting now so that he gets used to it while he's young. I understand it's different in the US, but family law in Australia strongly favours a primary care arrangement vs shared care for children under 4 based on infant mental health research. Eventually yes, we will transition to a share care arrangement, but right now I'm not willing to compromise on that. To be clear, H has 100% access - just no overnights.

I felt like they were questioning my integrity and motivations which really upset me, because I've been nothing but accommodating and fair for S's sake, when H deserves zero consideration from me. He literally abandoned his responsibilities as a father, and I feel like they are whitewashing that fact. Not only did he decline to have any involvement with dinner or bedtimes, he also refused to help with S when I was sick, and refused to help full-stop when S was sick. He also has not been able to stick to the current visitation arrangement, frequently gives up time with S in favour of work, and has never asked for additional time.

Nothing about this situation is fair, but the blame lies solely with the person who chose to destroy this family, not with me. I hate that my positivity train has been derailed but I've learned my lesson about sharing anything with them.


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scout12 #2865852 09/19/19 10:24 PM
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I'm spiralling a bit; can someone wiser and more experienced reel me in?

So this morning I asked ex for his keys back. He seemed taken aback and said he didn't feel comfortable not having access to his stuff. I said let's get your stuff out then, or you can pay me a storage fee since you chose to stop paying the mortgage. He doesn't yet have a place to rent and is still crashing with a friend. I said why are you concerned about your stuff, do you think I'll do something to it? He said no, he just wanted access to it. I said you have complete access, just arrange it with me anytime. So he handed the keys over.

I also asked him to shower and eat prior to arriving and he said he was doing that already. Untrue because he always leaves a dirty towel in the bathroom and dirty dishes in the sink, but whatever.

I feel like I handled this badly and allowed my emotions to dictate my actions. I was upset about him refusing to pay the mortgage despite our earlier agreement. He also arranged to remove his income from our joint account, but failed to cancel a $1000 bill for his car repayment, leaving me short of funds. I've mentioned before that money is my biggest anxiety trigger. I acted out of fear and forgot all about doing a 180 in that regard. I fear I came across as controlling and petty.

I'm feeling really low after that conversation with his parents the other day and the conversation about splitting finances. I hate this situation and just want the legal separation over with so I don't have to deal with these upsetting hiccups. I'm really struggling to find a suitable approach between following DB techniques and being firm with my requests and boundaries. This is, after all, a business transaction now. How do you find that balance?


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scout12 #2865860 09/20/19 01:05 AM
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It doesn't sound that bad to me.

DB techniques include setting boundaries but you better be willing to enforce them.

Everyone has a hiccup now and then during the process so if the vets say you could have handled it better, than you do that the next time and learn from it. Don't get caught up in how you are affecting his emotions. He's responsible for those.


H 37
W 31
S 2

T: 7
M: 4

BD 12/18
Separated 2/19
Living back together 04/06/2019
W Moved out again 07/15/2019
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Originally Posted by jac12
It doesn't sound that bad to me.

DB techniques include setting boundaries but you better be willing to enforce them.

Everyone has a hiccup now and then during the process so if the vets say you could have handled it better, than you do that the next time and learn from it. Don't get caught up in how you are affecting his emotions. He's responsible for those.


Thanks for the reminder, Jac.

I needn’t have worried about his feelings. When I got home from work he had cleaned the house, done the dishes and laundry, made my bed, and tidied S’s room before taking S to daycare. I sent a message to say thanks and he replied “no worries, even got S to help wash the car! Went through three pairs of clothes with all the bubbles!”

So that was positive.

Last edited by scout12; 09/21/19 02:19 AM.

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I fell off the DB wagon tonight. Give me some 2x4s?

It was H's afternoon with S. We had arranged via email to sign some forms related to the financial separation. He messaged to say they'd be a bit late as they were at a store to which I replied "Fun! Thanks for letting me know. If I don't see you in 10 minutes I'll assume you've kidnapped my child ;)" Chill, calm, relaxed - my own personal 180. I'm great at DBing in text-based communication, but can't seem to maintain my composure in person.

H wanted to flip through pages and pages of documents when they got home and I politely reminded him that this was cutting into my time with S and he could just return the forms on Thursday. He then said he'd agreed to take his friend to the airport during his time with S, but that maybe S (1.5 year old) wouldn't appreciate being stuck in the car for an hour during peak hour traffic at breakfast time. Uh, ya think? I said yeah, that doesn't exactly make me think that spending quality time with S is your top priority. Harsh, but that observation is a result of multiple such instances over the past four months, and I've kept my mouth shut about it up until now. He insisted that it was his priority, but he can't have the time he wants because I have 100% custody. I replied that nothing about this situation is fair, least of all on me and S, and he should remember that he wanted this whenever he feels like a victim.

From there, the conversation derailed into R talk. He said that every time we talk about the separation I "shove it in his face" that he chose this, and it makes him feel like he has no right to feel sad. The gist was he thinks I don't have sympathy for his feelings, but he's going through the same ups and downs that I am. Instead of validating, I said no, we aren't going through the same thing, because you walked out on me and S without warning or explanation. I pointed out his statement that he had been unhappy for years and asked if he had been lying that whole time? He said he wasn't going to talk about that because it puts him in a bad headspace. So I said I won't be made to feel guilty for his bad feelings and asked him to leave.

Bad, bad, bad, right?


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scout12 #2866262 09/24/19 11:27 AM
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Hey scout- I can see you’re doing it tough but you’ll be ok. You’re a strong mum after all.

I wouldn’t give him any comments like the one with kidnapping. I think you’re being too familiar and friendly.

With the documents, in future say ‘here’s the documents, let me know what you think, I’ll see you out. Goodnight’. No need to explain further.

Be strong. Regds D


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
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Thanks D, appreciate your advice and support.

I am taking a lot of steps now to protect myself and stay happy:

- Removed myself from his family group chat
- Applied for child support and other family assistance
- Applied to refinance the mortgage and remove him as co-borrower
- Ordered furniture and appliances to replace the things he'll be taking to his new place

Prior to Tuesday's fallout, we had been getting along relatively well. Compared to the first few months when he would routinely ignore me, I felt it was positive that he was acknowledging things that were happening in my life. Just small things like asking how I was going with sorting out my bills, saying he hoped I had a good weekend, and double-checking that I had solved a problem I asked for help with. But a big step for our relationship as friends and co-parents.

I can see, though, that the conversation on Tuesday probably served him with a truckload of guilt and shame for walking out on us, and I vacillate between feeling justified and regretting it. I feel like I've reminded him that I'm not a safe space and caused him to panic and retreat. I typed up a little message to try and salvage the situation by acknowledging and validating, but can someone give me some advice on whether I should send it?

"Hey, so that conversation got a bit out of hand the other night. It wasn't something I wanted to talk about at all. This situation must be hard for you. [Something light about S and a funny photo of S]."

I did see him this morning before work when he came to see S. We didn't speak except for a question about S's breakfast.


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scout12 #2866739 09/29/19 11:08 AM
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Just journalling. I didn't end up sending that apology/validation message and have been feeling quite low this week. I had pretty much decided that low/no contact was the best thing for me going forward. But then...

He spent the day with S and dropped him off the afternoon. He said he'd been approved for a rental and wanted to coordinate with me to move his stuff out next week. I said of course. I asked if he was living with anyone and he said not at this stage. I said I'd need to know the address, visit the house, and meet any roommates before I'd be comfortable with S going there. He said that was fine. We then had a minor quibble over a piece of furniture and I could feel myself losing control of my emotions, throwing caution to the wind, and getting snarky and sarcastic.

Warning: R talk ahead!

I asked him what he was telling people about the separation because naturally we each develop our own story about what happened. He scoffed and said does your story include the word 'abandoned'? I said I've only ever told the facts; what's your story, that your bitch wife drove you away? He said I've never called you a bitch and walked out.

I followed him out to the car because S wanted to wave goodbye. I said I've never talked badly about you, I just tell the truth and let other people draw conclusions. He said he's never spoken ill of me either. He tells people it was his decision to leave and that the details are personal. S wanted to sit in the car so we got in. He started playing with the steering wheel and dashboard while H and I talked about S. Then we talked about our own lives. We talked about shopping for furniture and where to get the best deals. He told me about winning a gokart race. I told him I went to yoga and out on a date. He said "oh!"

I reminded him he hadn't signed the mortgage refinance form and we all came back inside. I got S's dinner ready and he ate while we went over the valuation and settlement figures. I asked him if he liked the new shelf I built and he said he did and the property valuer was impressed too. We went over an email I had drafted last week; I had started off with "Happy Friday" as the greeting and he laughed and said just send it this Friday instead so it still applies.

In that email I had written a short PS about the blow up we'd had last week about the separation, saying it wasn't something I wanted to talk about at all and I was genuinely happy he was getting what he wanted. He said thank you for saying that. I explained that he made me feel guilty for something that was a consequence of his decision and that triggered an emotional reaction. He said he understood.

I then raised the subject of Christmas and S's birthday because I feel strongly about it. I said that I consider S and I 'the family' now and just because H has removed himself, family events shouldn't have to change. He said that's okay and he would be happy for me to have first pick and he would settle for what he felt was fair. He suggested coming over for presents and breakfast Christmas morning and I replied that it would feel like playing happy families and if he wanted that, we shouldn't be separating. Nevertheless, I said I'd think about it.

So far, not too bad? Then DB fail below...

I tried to wrap things up by saying he was welcome to stay and have dinner with S and he said thanks but he had to get home and meal prep. I then contradicted my happy families statement (whoops) by suggesting that maybe Sunday nights in future we could have a family movie night when he brings him home. He said that sounded like a good idea. I said that we had always got along well and it would be good for S to see us happy together. He smiled and agreed. We all had a group hug and he said thanks for the chat and then left.

So basically invited him to eat cake. Ugh!


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scout12 #2866860 09/30/19 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by scout12
I fell off the DB wagon tonight. Give me some 2x4s?

I replied that nothing about this situation is fair, least of all on me and S, and he should remember that he wanted this whenever he feels like a victim.

From there, the conversation derailed into R talk. He said that every time we talk about the separation I "shove it in his face" that he chose this, and it makes him feel like he has no right to feel sad. The gist was he thinks I don't have sympathy for his feelings, but he's going through the same ups and downs that I am. Instead of validating, I said no, we aren't going through the same thing, because you walked out on me and S without warning or explanation. I pointed out his statement that he had been unhappy for years and asked if he had been lying that whole time? He said he wasn't going to talk about that because it puts him in a bad headspace. So I said I won't be made to feel guilty for his bad feelings and asked him to leave.

Bad, bad, bad, right?


I think quite the contrary. I think it was good good good. As long as you were calm and rational and not shrieking when you said it. And the difference between your point of view and his is important. He is trying to transfer the guilt.
Don't let him. Whenever my STBXW brings things like this up, I still stay that the divorce was your idea. Actually, last time, I didn't say anything, but just looked at her, and she said "I know, I know, this divorce was my idea, and you're sure I can handle this."

Your latest journaling message is a good one. Even if things don't work out, you seem to be coparenting well, and remembering to consider your son in all this. You seem to be doing very well with all of this, with the exception of the very end, and suggesting family movie night. I could see it go either way, but personally I think having a standing "date" with your ex is a bad idea. Muddles the separation, and "are we" or "aren't we" getting back together. I think it would be confusing for your son, too.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
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Financial settlement is progressing smoothly. I just need the bank to assess my credit and approve the mortgage refinance so I can buy H out of the family home. The settlement amount will be discussed and agreed upon this week and I can’t see there being any issues. But you never know.

This morning we had the following message exchange:

H: Motorbike was just stolen from work...

M: Bugger. Hope you can get it back.

H: Yeah, had the police here all morning. Just another thing to add to the list...

M: That really [censored]. Here’s a pic of S1.5 giggling.

I wonder what that was about - fishing for sympathy? He’s made several comments about how tough his financial situation will be when paying rent, child support, car loan and shelling out for new furniture. And now a new motorbike I suppose! Not my problem, but I am sympathetic.


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Jim1234 #2867046 10/02/19 05:44 AM
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Thanks for reading and replying Jim! I really appreciate the reassurance.

It is hard to know what is best when it comes to our son - he’s only 1.5 years old. I do not want to allow H to eat cake though. He still seems to think he can come and go as he pleases, turn up late for pickup and drop off, and then turn around and accuse me of being uptight when I ask him to stick to the plan we have in writing. I have reminded him several times (pleasantly) that this is now a business arrangement and to act accordingly.


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scout12 #2867623 10/07/19 11:32 PM
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The latest ridiculousness...

H arranged with me last week to come to the house and pack/move his stuff yesterday. I said sure, I will leave the keys under the front door mat (didn't have plans per se, but didn't want to sit at home nor make him think I would be hanging around).

Well, he never turned up or let me know he wasn't coming. I got home at dinner time and nothing had been touched. He sent a message later that night saying he didn't make it as he was so busy buying new furniture for his new house. He added that he would just pack/move during his parenting time with our S the next morning. To which I thought - not the best use of that time, but whatever.

So after handover this morning I received a message while I was on the train to work. "WTF is this? You know this isn't being picked up until Saturday..." with a photo of the washer/dryer I had moved outside and covered with a tarp.

This sort of gaslighting treatment is a common theme with him - accusing me of ulterior motives when I'm innocent, saying he informed me of something when he hadn't, blaming me for consequences of his poor communication.

My reply: "I didn't know anything about Saturday? You told me Monday so I thought things were being moved yesterday and they were out there ready to go. The tarp was tucked around them, must have come off overnight. Feel free to move them into garage."

Why do they do this? The closer we get to finalising the legal separation, he gets more petty and condescending. I am nice, calm, cooperative, and helpful in every interaction. It seems to make him cold and angry! He's getting what he wanted and I'm just making the best of the situation he forced me into. I don't get it.


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scout12 #2867627 10/08/19 12:49 AM
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I absolutely love your responses to your H. Well played.

Clearly your H is struggling with something as he projects all his anger on to you. I don’t think there’s really any way to know why H is doing what he’s doing.

Keep doing what you’re doing and don’t allow him to suck you into the insanity.

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Originally Posted by scout12

I wonder what that was about - fishing for sympathy?.


Yes. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to be free to be with other women and still have you to be his emotional rock when he needs support. Whether you allow it is up to you, but I'd discourage it. "Wow, it sounds like you are having a really hard time. I'm sure you can handle it. Goodbye."

Originally Posted by scout12
It is hard to know what is best when it comes to our son - he’s only 1.5 years old.


Isn't it a shame they don't come with manuals? I'm sure you'll do fine. Just make sure he knows you love him.

Originally Posted by scout12
I do not want to allow H to eat cake though. He still seems to think he can come and go as he pleases, turn up late for pickup and drop off, and then turn around and accuse me of being uptight when I ask him to stick to the plan we have in writing. I have reminded him several times (pleasantly) that this is now a business arrangement and to act accordingly.


I'd suggest coming up with boundaries you can enforce, and then enforce them. He's late for pickup? "Ooooh, too bad. I had an appointment I couldn't be late for, so when you didn't come, I brought S1.5, and can't meet you to drop him off until......" I'm not suggesting you use S1.5 as a pawn in all this. It's just an example of you not letting your life revolve around him.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
Thornton #2867638 10/08/19 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Thornton
I absolutely love your responses to your H. Well played.

Clearly your H is struggling with something as he projects all his anger on to you. I don’t think there’s really any way to know why H is doing what he’s doing.

Keep doing what you’re doing and don’t allow him to suck you into the insanity.


Thornton, I couldn't have written it better!

I think it's easier to blame you than take responsibility for not showing up when he said he would.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
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The weirdest thing about my situation? No matter how tense or awkward our interactions are, in person or over email, he continues to make my bed whenever he’s in the house looking after S1.5.


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scout12 #2867754 10/09/19 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by scout12
The weirdest thing about my situation? No matter how tense or awkward our interactions are, in person or over email, he continues to make my bed whenever he’s in the house looking after S1.5.


As crazy as this sounds he's probably doing it to check for evidence that you've had a visitor over. If he gets caught snooping around your bed then he can say "oh I was just making the bed for you".


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Maybe it's the little devil on my shoulder, but I'd be inclined to buy some boxers (or briefs, if H wears boxers) and put a pair low down under the covers.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by scout12
The weirdest thing about my situation? No matter how tense or awkward our interactions are, in person or over email, he continues to make my bed whenever he’s in the house looking after S1.5.


As crazy as this sounds he's probably doing it to check for evidence that you've had a visitor over. If he gets caught snooping around your bed then he can say "oh I was just making the bed for you".

Originally Posted by Jim1234
Maybe it's the little devil on my shoulder, but I'd be inclined to buy some boxers (or briefs, if H wears boxers) and put a pair low down under the covers.


I like where your heads are at. Thank you.


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Another fun exchange at S handover this morning. H turned up (late) and to my great surprise, let himself into the house with a key.

M: Why do you still have keys? I thought you'd returned them.
H: I took them from under the door mat on Monday.
M: You didn't tell me you were taking them, they were only there for you to use on Monday.
H: I told you I was moving all this week.
M: No, you didn't, you just told me Monday in your email.
H: I told you in person.
M: No, you didn't. Stop blaming me for your lack of communication.
H: Fine, you know what? Here's the keys. I'll be here on Saturday to move the rest of my stuff.
M: Thank you.
H: I won't be paying to file the separation agreement [that we'd verbally agreed on splitting the cost of] since you are the only one who benefits [from waiving property taxes].
M: You're so petty. It's ridiculous.
H: And you're not? With the keys?
M: Until you stop blaming me for your problems and realise that you're the common denominator in your unhappiness, you're going to be a very negative and miserable person. I didn't cause this problem. Your assumptions did.
H: I don't blame you for everything.
M: You are the one with the issues. Remember, you wanted this. I won't be paying for the divorce application since I'm not the one that wanted it.
H: Fine.
M: From now on, all communication needs to be in writing. You are unreliable. You keep changing your mind and using that as an excuse to blame me. I already told you I won't have these conversations during kid handover.
H: Fine.

Once on the train, I sent the following message:

'Just so it's clear, I don't have a problem with you using the keys. I'm so tired of getting into arguments over stupid things like this. Here's what I would have expected in terms of communicating a plan: "I'd like to take the keys for the week so I can move things when I have free time. At this stage, I'm planning to come on xyz day at xyz time. I will let you know in advance if that changes. Let me know if that all works for you." Please, for the love of God, take this on board so we can both have peace in our lives. I don't want to do this any more. I'm sending this to prevent a future argument but if you choose to be pissed off, so be it. Please just leave me alone.'

H replied back with a clear plan for moving the rest of his stuff (amazingly), and added:

'We didn't put anything in writing about keys, I understand communication can be clearer but your attitude today as I walked in was not on, if you want to be civil, don't start [censored] as soon as I open the door. Thank you for messaging me.'

My final response:

'I hope you can understand why I'd be upset that you assumed it was okay to take keys to my home without my knowledge. Thanks for letting me know about Saturday.'

Does anyone feels like analysing this? I am honestly on edge from the constant gaslighting and accusations. I don't know if anything I'm doing is right. Not just right for DB-ing, but in terms of standing up for myself while being fair and kind.


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scout12 #2867851 10/10/19 04:45 AM
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Thinking more about it, I didn't do anything that bad. I reinforced my boundaries of what level of disrespect I will tolerate. I stayed relatively calm and didn't get angry. A bit critical, sure, but there are limits on what I can take! I pointed out his inconsistencies and told him my expectations for communicating in future. I think that is okay. Him calling it "attitude" and "starting sh!t" just means he doesn't like being held accountable.


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Hey Scout,

How you doing?

You did well in a context of dealing with someone normal and rational, but you're not dealing with someone like that because you're in a parallel universe right now. Try to let his verbal spews wash over you.

I would have begun and ended the above dialogue with "I'll grab those keys thanks. Just leave them on the table please", then taken them and walked off and left him standing like an oaf in the front door. End of dialogue.

I know it's hard. If he says something to continue in leading up to a position where he can vent and rant against you, just stare at him with a face that speaks of disinterest and disdain (maybe even RBF), but say nothing. If you're caught up in it, repeat the word 'calm' over and over in your head whilst he's talking.

Good luck!


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
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Originally Posted by DS9
Hey Scout,

How you doing?

You did well in a context of dealing with someone normal and rational, but you're not dealing with someone like that because you're in a parallel universe right now. Try to let his verbal spews wash over you.

I would have begun and ended the above dialogue with "I'll grab those keys thanks. Just leave them on the table please", then taken them and walked off and left him standing like an oaf in the front door. End of dialogue.

I know it's hard. If he says something to continue in leading up to a position where he can vent and rant against you, just stare at him with a face that speaks of disinterest and disdain (maybe even RBF), but say nothing. If you're caught up in it, repeat the word 'calm' over and over in your head whilst he's talking.

Good luck!


Hey, DS. I really appreciate your viewpoint on this. I read your thread and you are so calm and collected. Your advice is spot on. It is so hard when he is twisting things and making me out to be the bad guy, it drives me crazy! I'll try and be more mindful next time to gain back some control and respect.


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scout12 #2867968 10/11/19 04:54 AM
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Hey Scout. Pleasure! Thanks for reading my thread - its valuable to have a woman's perspective. Had a teeny bump this morning, whihc I've posted about. Let me know what you think. Cheers, D

Remember - Calm, calm, calm


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
scout12 #2868173 10/13/19 10:44 PM
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H came over with a mutual friend to move the last of his stuff on the weekend. Well, ostensibly the last of it - as soon as he arrived he said he couldn't move everything today. I calmly (thanks DS) said I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. I need your stuff out today. He immediately went on the defensive saying that until I pay him the settlement money for the house, he can keep his stuff here as long as he wants. I said, I'm sorry, but that's not how that works. He kept arguing and blaming and said "you're obviously just in a problematic mood today".

Me: The only problem I have is dealing with the problems you cause with your insufficient communication. I'm fed up with being messed around when I've bent over backwards to coordinate this move with you. You make vague plans, don't stick to times, don't show up, don't keep me in the loop or respect my arrangements. If you wanted your stuff out, you should have taken it on Monday as per your original plan.

I then went outside with S to get him into the car. We watched him run around and started talking about trivial things as if the aforementioned argument never happened. It's weird how this keeps happening. I teased him about what looked like a hickey (ew) on his neck and he started laughing and swore on S's life that it wasn't one. He said it was a bruise from his seatbelt while gokarting. I called him a liar and we were both laughing. It was weird, and probably not good DB-ing, but it didn't hurt me, which shows good detachment?

I reminded him to either take or toss everything and not to leave his stuff for me to deal with. He agreed and said "thanks for being nice to me" with a big smile before I left.

On a positive note, it seems he took my words on board, as he messaged me throughout the day to inform me of his comings and goings to the house, and sent me a list of items he was unable to move with a plan to collect them ASAP. To which I thanked him for letting me know.

Last edited by scout12; 10/13/19 10:52 PM.

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scout12 #2868175 10/13/19 11:01 PM
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The next morning he came to pick up S1.5 to spend the day with him. I passed on a few things about S1.5 and then gently took H by the elbow and showed him a whole pile of his junk still stuffed in a cupboard. I said "Either you're trying to annoy me, or I'm genuinely concerned about your comprehension skills... What part of 'take it or toss it' was hard to understand?" He apologised and said he didn't realise it was his stuff, and immediately grabbed a garbage bag to sort through it. It was all very pleasant. He then went to see if his car would start and I stayed with S1.5 in the garage, texting my friend and smiling at my phone. H noticed and asked if I was going on another date. I said no, as my friends and their kids were coming over for a visit.

The house was clean and tidy when he brought S1.5 home for dinner. I was in the middle of building a step stool for S.15 to help in the kitchen. I took H outside and showed him some more stuff he had forgotten to take, and he said he'd grab it when he gets his car. S.15 wanted me to go with him and play in the backyard, so I said goodbye to H. He called back "love you" - to S1.5, I assume, but it was hard to let go of the instinct to say it back. Just a habit!


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scout12 #2868296 10/14/19 11:18 PM
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What are people's thoughts on sharing photos or stories about kids with your WAS?

Yesterday S1.5 asked for dada on the way home from daycare. I said not today. He replied "no dada, dada gone, bye dada, love you dada" and blew a kiss. I thought this was cute and wanted to share it with H.

Is that doing the job of a wife after he has fired me?


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scout12 #2868306 10/15/19 12:53 AM
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Hey Scout,

Personally, I wouldn't share it with him. He chose to abandon that type of loving, sweet interaction.

I used to share photos etc with XW, but not anymore. XW sent me a photo of my S by sms a couple of weeks ago. I didn't reply at all. Old me would have, then sent a photo back. We used to do that during our M too.

But we're not married anymore, nor are you.

I think it's a personal decision though.

I have photos of WX, and XW and me together in my S's study though.


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
scout12 #2868312 10/15/19 02:21 AM
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Wouldn’t share either. I did at first but quit 4 months after he left. I have the kids more than him too. Oh well his loss.

DS9 #2868327 10/15/19 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DS9
Hey Scout,

Personally, I wouldn't share it with him. He chose to abandon that type of loving, sweet interaction.

I used to share photos etc with XW, but not anymore. XW sent me a photo of my S by sms a couple of weeks ago. I didn't reply at all. Old me would have, then sent a photo back. We used to do that during our M too.

But we're not married anymore, nor are you.

I think it's a personal decision though.

I have photos of WX, and XW and me together in my S's study though.


People can make their own choices buy why punish the kids. A as child of divorce I find this attitude appalling.
I feel like it's using the kid.

scout12 #2868328 10/15/19 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by scout12
What are people's thoughts on sharing photos or stories about kids with your WAS?

Yesterday S1.5 asked for dada on the way home from daycare. I said not today. He replied "no dada, dada gone, bye dada, love you dada" and blew a kiss. I thought this was cute and wanted to share it with H.

Is that doing the job of a wife after he has fired me?


It really depends on your spouse. Some WAS's get really weird about stuff like that and will actually get angry if the LBS sends them ANYTHING, even if strictly kid-related. But others are more than happy to receive such things. My XW and I remained very kid-focused after BD, S and D and shared photos of the kids doing activities throughout, and still do in fact. We also still get together for birthdays. It's up to you, the only thing I would suggest is to make sure you're doing it with no expectations and not as a way to try and temperature check him.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
scout12 #2868347 10/15/19 06:10 PM
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Some LBSs are in so much pain that texting the WAS over anything is detrimental to their own health. A healed parent takes priority over sending pictures. I’m old so I remember when you had to send off film to get pictures. Kids will do just fine in life without pictures and for that matter so will the WAS.

scout12 #2868392 10/15/19 11:03 PM
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Another question.

I found a charge for a hotel room on a bank statement for one of our joint accounts. It was charged a few months ago at 11pm. H has said there’s nobody else and that’s not the reason for ending our marriage, but at BD he said he wanted the opportunity to sleep with other people while we were on a break. Is there any point in bringing this up to question the charge and ask him to tell the truth about a possible OW?

Now that H is settled in his own place after four months of crashing with a friend, he seems relieved and happy and ready to resume normal life. He spent the last four months hiding from anyone who might “have an agenda” and try to “change his mind”. It’s feels like he’s just brushing the horrendous act of abandoning his family under the rug and acting as if it never happened, or that it happened but he’s not responsible. He insisted the other day that he does value family... I wanted to say that someone who values family doesn’t destroy one.

He’s posting photos of our S in his family group chat whenever he has him as if to prove what a great dad he is. I haven’t posted in the chat for a month and at this point I’m sitting on a goodbye message to the group, but unsure if I should send it. I don’t feel like part of the family any more. I don’t know what to do. His parents and sister didn’t ask for this to happen, and I don’t want to punish them by not sharing photos of their grandson/nephew, but emotionally I don’t think I can keep up the pretense that nothing has changed.

Feeling a bit down in the dumps today. He changed his social media profile pic from a wedding photo to something else and I feel stupid for letting that get to me.


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scout12 #2868399 10/16/19 12:59 AM
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Sorry you are feeling down today, Scout. The Facebook profile pic change always hurt me too. I found it’s so much better to stay away from social media when you are dealing with this stuff and simply do not check up on H.

I’m going to be honest with you, your husband is having an affair. A hotel charge at 11pm, AND he verbally stated he wants to sleep with other people. That’s what you are dealing with Scout. Do you think he would actually be honest if you were to ask about the hotel charge? I’ve never seen an honest cheater.

I think you should start by acknowledging the truth so you can begin dealing with things and healing yourself.

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Thanks Thornton. I unfriended him ages ago and don’t go looking at his profile. I noticed the change when he messaged me on FB about our son. It’s actually a blessing in disguise because the old wedding profile pic would cause me some anxiety whenever it popped up. The new one is more innocuous.

To be honest, I expected that he’d be having an affair since he explicitly stated he didn’t want to be faithful during the trial separation. In his mind, the marriage was over at BD, right? So it’s not an affair and he hasn’t done anything wrong. And now that he knows I’ve been on a date, it probably legitimises whatever he’s done. There’s a slight difference between a casual lunch and sticking your dick in someone while still legally married, but that’s just my opinion.

So nothing to be gained by confronting him? It just sickens me that he’s so cheerful and oblivious now as though life just goes on after this minor speed bump. Meanwhile I’m still lying flat on the road where he ran me over.


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scout12 #2868409 10/16/19 04:25 AM
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I could have written those words Scout. My XH is the same way. This time last year we had only been “separated” for a week and he was already eating Thanksgiving Dinner with his OW and our kids and lying to my face about it saying she was just a roommate and they barely knew each other...that the rental market was so bad he had to stay with a virtual stranger. Stuck to that story after I confronted him numerous times with that annoying used-car-salesman tone of voice. Poor sad DejaVu that you would suspect this of me when clearly I am telling you the truth. It is amazing how they can twist things in their minds so you look like the one with the problem. It wasn’t until they bought a house, went on a vacation and got engaged (found out that part later from her) that he finally admitted it. Even then I had to practically beat it out of him (figuratively, of course).

Even though I am mostly over it, it still makes me sick thinking about how he played me for all that time. And now he wants an award for being the father he should have been for all those years he ignored us. It’s disgusting. 99.9% of the time, I choose to think about other things but that 0.1% of the time, it still really bothers me. And now that I am seeing someone, he thinks he is home free... He’s happy...that’s all that matters. How someone can be happy destroying a family and parenting his kids 50% of the time and someone else’s kids 100% of the time, is beyond me. But somehow he does it and he thinks he is justified. His OW does too. She actually had the gall to text me and defend him saying he’s being a great dad and a partner [to her] “now”. Like I was supposed to be happy it. She’s as delusional as he is.

Right now, the best thing you can do for yourself is to have as little to do with him as possible. The family thing is tough - especially when there are kids involved. No matter how big of an a$$ he is being, his parents and his sister are still your son’s grandparents and aunt. My advice would be to include them as much as you can without compromising your own health/sanity. Maybe you can send them pictures and updates some other way...directly to their emails or on messenger without doing the group chat thing? I’m sure they would understand you not participating in the same way given the situation. I wouldn’t bother with a goodbye letter as it isn’t like you will never have anything to do with them again. You are still the mother of their grandson/nephew and that will never change. I’m sure they are upset about the separation and just don’t know what to say to you. My XH’s family has been great. His cousins have kept in contact with me and have commented how impressed they are with the level of integrity I’ve shown. Most of them are incredulous about it all and can’t believe how open he is on Facebook about his new life...as if no one recalls he was married this time last year to someone else. He looks like a complete a$$ and like you said about your H, he is oblivious to it. Maybe ignorance really is bliss???

Despite everything, however, keep in mind that you are going to have to co-parent with him for the rest of your son’s childhood so you do have to maintain as positive of a relationship as you can with him...for the sake of your son. It takes a lot of self control and mental olympics to do it but the better you are at it, the better off your son will be. You want him to be able to look back on his life and have good memories of his parents regardless of what happened between the two of you. He will look at the situation with adult eyes one day and you want him to be able to say that his mom did everything in her power to make things okay for him. If it were up to me, I would never lay eyes on my XH again but I don’t have that luxury so I keep my focus on my kids and what they need from me. They need me to be okay with them loving their dad so when I see him, I smile and we have pleasant, cooperative exchanges. And every once in awhile, I actually forget what a complete jerk he was to me and we share a laugh and I remember that things weren’t always this way and I think he does too. Those moments are bittersweet, to say the least.

Anyway...I hope this didn’t feel like a highjack. I didn’t mean to write so much about my sitch. I just wanted to lend you some support and let you know that you are not alone in your feelings. There are many of us out there who feel the same way as you and have been where you are at now. I promise it will get easier with time if you keep the focus on you and your child. (((HUGS)))

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Originally Posted by scout
To be honest, I expected that he’d be having an affair since he explicitly stated he didn’t want to be faithful during the trial separation. In his mind, the marriage was over at BD, right? So it’s not an affair and he hasn’t done anything wrong.

I agree. By announcing he wouldn't be faithful during the trial separation, he's not a cheater, just a donkey's backside! I don't know what you'd gain by confronting him. ((HUGS)) too!

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Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Anyway...I hope this didn’t feel like a highjack. I didn’t mean to write so much about my sitch. I just wanted to lend you some support and let you know that you are not alone in your feelings. There are many of us out there who feel the same way as you and have been where you are at now. I promise it will get easier with time if you keep the focus on you and your child. (((HUGS)))


Deja, don't apologise for sharing your point of view, I loved reading your wise words. Just knowing we aren't alone on this journey is invaluable. I have reread your post several times and I'm still reflecting on it, so thank you for sharing your experience with me.


Originally Posted by CWarrior

I agree. By announcing he wouldn't be faithful during the trial separation, he's not a cheater, just a donkey's backside! I don't know what you'd gain by confronting him. ((HUGS)) too!


Thank you for the commiserations and hugs, CW.

Last edited by scout12; 10/16/19 10:36 PM.

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Yesterday I went to my massage therapist. I met her through my H as her husband and daughter both work for the same company as H, and they all know him well. He is a manager of a local store and the daughter is his assistant manager. I was shocked to hear the following information from her:

- H has been outright lying to his staff and colleagues saying we were still together when they'd already heard through the grapevine that he left me. They are pissed off and feel that they can't trust him anymore - if he lied about something like that, what else will he lie about?
- H has angry outbursts at work where he yells at staff, locks himself in his office and throws stuff around/breaks stuff
- H is not well-liked or respected and has a reputation for being slick and slimy - his nickname is Mr Teflon ie. nothing sticks to him
- H goes out partying and hangs out with all the 18 year old casual workers in his store - he is 29
- Several of his staff are suspicious that his motorbike that was stolen from outside his store was actually an insurance fraud scam (!)
- One of his staff members he crashed with for a week to play video games ended up kicking him out after two days because he didn't clean up his mess or help around the house
- Another manager contacted HR to ask if he should reach out to H when he heard that we were separated and was told "don't bother, he left her"

I was honestly so sad to hear all that. H put so much pride in his reputation and it sounds like he's completely trashed it. Work was always so important to him; he has been with the same company the entirety of our 9 year relationship and was on leadership programs from a young age as he showed so much promise. It seems like he no longer has the respect of his staff, his peers, or his higher-ups. He is just self-imploding/self-destructing, and regardless of the pain he's caused me, my heart aches for him.


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scout12 #2868521 10/16/19 11:30 PM
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it’s so hard to watch a loved one implode but you can’t fix him.

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Scout, I'm just kind of catching up,and it seems like you've gotten a lot of good advice. Regarding sharing pictures, share or not, depending on what YOU want to do. Don't even consider what he'd think. If you want to share them, do. If not, don't. It's all part of detachment.

It doesn't seem unusual for the walkaway spouse's life to implode. Like all of a sudden they are 12, and don't understand their actions have consequences. Exercise a little caution, because often they blame you. All of us here understand how completely irrational that is, but there you go.

Chin up. You're doing great.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
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I've been reflecting on what I've heard about H.

He accused me of being controlling, impossible to please, anxious, angry, uptight, boring, and a lot of other overwhelmingly negative things.

His self-identity has always been overwhelmingly positive - upbeat, fun-loving, easygoing. A guy who lives in the moment and doesn't dwell on problems.

Several times throughout our relationship I apologised in tears for being too complicated, too difficult, too needy. I'm now realising how messed up it was for him to (subconsciously or otherwise) make me feel like I needed to apologise at all. He always made me feel like my emotional needs were unreasonable, when really he was simply incapable or uninterested in meeting them. He tried to appease me because it was expected, or he tried to the best of his ability, but past a certain point I became a burden, an annoyance, a source of frustration.

At BD, it suddenly became all about his needs. He had sacrificed for so long, it was his time to get what he wanted. He was tired of putting himself last. His happiness was the only thing he cared about.

Quite often I regretfully said that I seemed to need a lot from him, but he needed nothing from me. He would brush it off and say he didn't need anything. He never raised issues or concerns about our relationship, so I had to be the one to address our mutual problems. In his mind, that was me disturbing the peace and never being satisfied with the status quo. Why couldn't I just be chill and let things slide? Answer: because someone had to manage the emotional labour of running the household and keeping the kid alive and happy.

Additionally, I've realised that he himself embodies many of the traits he seems to despise in me. He was extremely judgemental about choices other people made in their lives. He would brag about how we had done everything right and how much we had achieved. He would swear and scream and throw things when he lost his temper. He would blame other people for causing problems without acknowledging his part. He procrastinated and avoided dealing with difficult tasks. He never made an effort to connect with anyone on a deeper emotional level.

I wasn't a perfect wife and we didn't have a perfect marriage. But I'm starting to think that maybe it wasn't 100% my fault, and that it was never a true marriage in the purest sense of the word.


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As time goes on you will notice more of his weaknesses . It was not 100 percent your fault . It’s like knowing a train is going to crash but not knowing when . Maybe tomorrow... maybe a year from now . He’s blaming you for everything but don’t let it in . Acknowledge your faults . Address them . Work on them for you and you alone .

“His happiness is the only thing he cared about “ - I heard this months ago word for word . Let him worry about his happiness and you worry about making yourself the best you can be . He seems good at baiting you . The keys for example . It’s hard but learn not to respond to it . The back and forth . My H one day raised his voice on phone . I said if you raise it again I’ll hang up . Guess what I hung up . Yea I got some nasty texts . Gave same response you raise your voice I hang up . I said it’s not a discussion and ended it right there . Hours later he apologized hasn’t happened since .

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Kind of an eye opener when you gain some emotional distance, huh? Good for you for your clarity. The failure of a marriage is not usually ALL one person's fault. Just make sure to remember this in the future.


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
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Of course it wasn't 100% your fault!! Even though it is sad that he's wrecking all aspects of his life, it also shows that there is something incredibly destabilizing and destructive going on inside of him. Of course you may have areas that you want to work on for yourself that he may or may not hit on in his rants, but knowing that you can't fix his issues and that most of the garbage that he's spewing is just a reflection of his own insecurities and self-loathing-- and that his destructive behavior isn't confined to his MR-- might help you to detach from caring too much about what he's saying and doing.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
scout12 #2869257 10/23/19 04:08 AM
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More communication frustration.

Over the weekend a mutual friend informed me that H is attending a work conference Tuesday-Thursday this week, an hour away, staying overnight. I was like... he's meant to pick up S1.5 from daycare on Tuesdays? He hasn't told me anything? He would have known about this conference for months? Still hadn't heard from him until 9am Tuesday morning saying he can't pick him up that afternoon! I was, and still am, incredibly annoyed. What if I was busy? Where's the consideration? No mention about making up for that time with S1.5 either. The icing on the cake was him chasing me for his settlement money in the same message, ie. I'm abandoning my parental responsibilities again, but where's my $? As though I can just magically create a large amount of money from thin air.

I shouldn’t be surprised by his selfish and inconsiderate actions, but I still am, every time.


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H showed up with a hickey on his neck for the second weekend in a row. He is taking S1.5 to see his parents today, yuck! They would have to notice it. We had the following exchange and I said a lot of things that I’ve been bottling up..

M: Another hickey, I see.
H: (Sheepish but kinda proud) Yep.
M: Why didn’t you admit it last weekend?
H: I don’t know.
M: It’s nice to know the real reason you ended our marriage.
H: That’s not the reason. It’s only been a few weeks.
M: How did you meet?
H: Through friends.
M: Are you dating or just hooking up?
H: I don’t know, it’s only been a couple of weeks.
M: (to S1.5) Dada’s a cheater!
H: (Angry) That’s not fair.
M: You’re right, that was a low blow. You don’t consider it cheating because we’re separated, right?
H: Yeah. What about the guy you’ve been seeing?
M: Having lunch with someone is a bit different than sticking your dick in someone while legally married.
H: You think you’re a better person than me.
M: Yes, I do. You would have to know how much it would hurt me to see that on your neck. It’s like rubbing it in my face that’s I’ve been replaced. Why wasn’t I good enough for you?
H: I’m not talking about this right now.
M: OK.
H: You think this is easy for me. Look at what I’m giving up, what you have to give up. Don’t assume this is easy.
M: Why is it easier than trying to improve what we had?
H: I don’t want to talk about that right now. This is why I had to leave. You’re controlling and criticising me. I just want the freedom to make my own decisions.
M: I’m just trying to understand.
H: We get along so well in messages but it’s a different story in person. Sometimes you won’t even look at me or talk to me.
M: I do struggle with my emotions sometimes. I feel like I can’t be anything other than OK around you because you judge me or throw it back in my face.
H: I feel the same, like I have to second guess everything I say because it gets picked apart.
M: I agree. There are still a lot of emotions involved. I still love you and it is hard.
H: I know.
M: Do you ever think about coming home?
H: Yes, I’ve thought about it.
M: What would it take to make that happen?
H: I can’t answer that.
M: OK. The door is not shut yet. But I can’t be friends with you while I’m hurting. I will be a civil and calm coparent, but unless we are working towards reconciling, it’s too hard for me to share that part of myself with you.
H: (Annoyed) See, that sounds like an ultimatum. It’s all or nothing with you.
M: I can see how it feels like that. But it’s just what I need to do to protect myself.
H: OK.

Eventually we shared a long hug and he said thank you. He put S1.5 in the car and I said goodbye.

M: I know when you moved out I said that cheating was a dealbreaker. I realise that you don’t consider what you’ve done to be cheating, and maybe you’re right. It might be good for both of us to see what else is out there to compare and get clarity on what we’re leaving behind.
H: But you just called me a cheater back there...?
M: I know. I was emotional. It’s easy to be black and white in theory, but the reality is more complicated when there is a child involved.
H: Yeah.

I’m sure from a DB perspective I said too much, but I feel a lot lighter. Even though I now know he’s seeing someone else. That fact doesn’t bother me as much, it was the lying and lack of respect for my intelligence that was really getting to me.


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scout12 #2869629 10/27/19 01:38 AM
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S,

Yeah really bad exchange. You broke about every rule in the book. I’m wondering what you we’re try to accomplish in the exchange? I know you say you feel lighter and it was about the lying and the lack of respect but you knew he was lying and you actually lost respect in the exchange.

The exchange you had is backwards. Until he asks YOU what has to happen for me to comeback you are going to be in limbo. You set a boundary that cheating is a dealbreaker and he broke it and there are no consequences.

I have to ask you what is his incentive to end the A and repair the marriage?

I understand that this is really hard be you have to try to minimize these mistakes because they can set you back big time.

Have you read sandis rules?

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I know it was counter-productive. Him flaunting the hickey really set me off. I wasn’t trying to accomplish anything, if I think about it rationally now, it was 100% emotional word vomit and pain shopping. This week has been a huge downward spiral and I’ve been feeling as low as I did immediately post-BD. So I guess I was spoiling for some fresh pain.

Incentive to end the affair... nothing except the appeal of having an intact family and maintaining his reputation as a family man. Nothing to do with winning me back, that’s for sure. It’s clear I’m not valuable or desirable in his eyes.

I’ve said my piece and can’t take it back. I have read the rules and done pretty well at following them so far. Back on the DB horse now and I will stick to the civil coparenting boundary I stated. When he drops S1.5 off this afternoon, I will smile and be courteous and pretend like this conversation never happened.


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scout12 #2869642 10/27/19 11:21 AM
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S,

Yeah one of the things I learned through the process is how valuable it is to be able to control my emotions.

Right now the affair is like a drug to him so he will do anything to get his fix even if it tarnishes his reputation as a family man.

How can you make yourself more valuable and desirable in his eyes?

scout12 #2869691 10/28/19 01:55 PM
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Scout, you need to remove all pressure. That means no personal attacks, no temperature checks, minimize conversation and contact. That exchange was just loaded with exactly the kind of triggers you should be avoiding. Next time just ask him if he is aware of the nasty bruise on his neck and suggest he seek medical attention, LOL! No I'm just kidding, don't say anything at all. Don't ask why he ended the M, don't make fun of him to S, don't ask for his definition of an affair, don't describe him having sex, etc. etc. etc. Basically don't say any of the things you just said. You are just justifying to him why he left. Whenever you say those things he thinks "this is why it's over and will never work, she's never going to change." Do 180's on that, show him changes.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I'd love some advice. Whenever I get the urge to contact H, I type notes in my phone. I'm wondering if this one should be sent at some point.

"Hey, I've been thinking. It's your choice to be with someone else. You aren't accountable to anyone except yourself. I have no desire to challenge your decision. I respect your opinion and understand it's not easy for you. I'm sorry if my emotional reactions have seemed mean or controlling. I'll never do anything to hurt you on purpose.

I do have the choice to cut contact with you about anything other than logistics. We can coparent but I can't be friends with you as long as you're with someone else. Sorry. I love you, I'm in love with you, and I want to be your wife. For me, it is all or nothing. I know now I can be happy with or without you. If you change your mind, let me know. I hope you find your happiness, with or without me."


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scout12 #2870076 10/31/19 06:48 AM
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Scout, NO, dont send it! Sorry I'm short replying but I'm just about to get stuck into something. Please just don't send it ok


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
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Nooooooooooo! Do not send it.

scout12 #2870081 10/31/19 09:58 AM
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Show him through actions not words.

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Absolutely do not send this!

I have learned the hard way. Long protestations and laying everything on the table like this does not work. It pushes them further away 100%.

For me, I found this forum too late. I should have used the advice I've been given months ago - maybe things would be different. I can't tell for certain but I know I broke at least 75% of Sandi's rules in the first month after my Ws' BD.

It's good to write down how you feel and get it out of your system. But once that's done, ERASE THE NOTE so you're not tempted to send it.


Me - 36, W - 32
No kids
T - 8 yr, M - 3 yr
Discovery - 14 May 2019
S - 25 May 2019 & D bomb - 29 July 2019
D & House sale final - Feb 2020
scout12 #2870249 11/01/19 01:15 AM
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Guys, I just feel so done. How do you stand for someone who treats you with disrespect and disregard? He is flaunting multiple hickeys every time he comes to pick up S1.5. It makes me sick. I am more than someone’s sloppy seconds.

I will continue doing the following.

1. Get a life and avoid interaction
2. Never initiate contact unless it’s an emergency
3. Only respond to contact that requires a direct answer
4. Ignore negative contact such as baiting or accusations
5. Be polite and calm whenever we must interact


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scout12 #2870254 11/01/19 01:41 AM
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Hey Scout,

Sorry you're down in the dumps today. I know the felling of being done. You know what I did? I read and reread and kept reading all those useful sticky links, especially Sandi's Rules, R2C's quotes etc. I also read the success stories, and restored my sense of encouragement. Keep DB'ing, GAL, time and patience. You are the lady Lighthouse!

Your points 1 - 5 sound good, but maybe 4 needs some boundary setting? Read and reread the boundaries sticky.

Remember - 'Calm'.

BTW - you're not 'sloppy seconds'. The OW is. You are the first, so how can you ever be second. Not sure where you're from, but here in Oz sloppy seconds has quite a rude connotation which I wont repeat here!!

Strength through the struggle Scout.

Cheers, DS


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
scout12 #2870265 11/01/19 04:01 AM
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DS, I am Aussie too wink

Thanks for the encouragement. Finally getting confirmation of the OW has definitely knocked me for a six. In some ways it's nice to not be on tenterhooks anymore. It happened, I can dust myself off. I do have an issue with the way it was revealed, but it is keeping in with the callous nature of everything else he has done post-BD.

I realised I've been struggling with the false equivalence that 'being nice to H' = 'accepting/condoning what he has done'. I need to let go of the concept that he's getting away with war crimes and I'm helping him brush it under the rug. I'm nice because it's an integral part of my character, not in response to anything he has or hasn't done. This will help me be consistent in future interactions.


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scout12 #2870270 11/01/19 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by scout12
DS, I am Aussie too wink



You bloody ripper! I'm so glad to have another Aussie here!

Originally Posted by scout12


Thanks for the encouragement.



Pleasure. I'll try to be more avaialble to help, as we'll be on the same time zone. Everyone else is asleep while we're up and about.

Originally Posted by scout12


I'm nice because it's an integral part of my character,



I think I share this trait. I struggle to reconcile it with divesting some of my NGS characteristics. I enjoy being nice to people, and I especially enjoy it with close family. I struggle with change sometimes, especially changing for my benefit. I'm good at advising others, but hopeless at taking my own advice, for my own good. Being sensitive too doesnt help. I'm still naive to people who take advantage of that, but learning.


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
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Do you think women can be Nice Guys?

I'm having such a hard time tonight. Took S1.5 to my work Halloween party and it was full of families and kids. I had a good time, but it made me realise how much I've lost or rather how much has been taken from me and my son. Honestly I've been fighting some intrusive thoughts and the urge to do anything to take the pain away.

Let me focus on something positive. Last night I left my son for the first time with my parents and went to a concert with an old friend. It was awesome. Earlier in the week, one of my employees I've been coaching through some behavioural problems said that I had inspired him to turn his life around. My friends have been there for me in an instant whenever I reach out in dire straits. And my son continues to amaze and delight me every day with his personality, his sense of humour, his empathy and compassion. I'm very lucky.


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scout12 #2870279 11/01/19 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by scout12
Guys, I just feel so done. How do you stand for someone who treats you with disrespect and disregard? He is flaunting multiple hickeys every time he comes to pick up S1.5. It makes me sick. I am more than someone’s sloppy seconds.

I will continue doing the following.

1. Get a life and avoid interaction
2. Never initiate contact unless it’s an emergency
3. Only respond to contact that requires a direct answer
4. Ignore negative contact such as baiting or accusations
5. Be polite and calm whenever we must interact


Scout I have some personal thoughts on this this morning. Not giving advise, just thoughts and maybe relation? In my sich, every time XW would make a change, go out dolled up, make plans, new perfumes, lingerie, "novelty accessories" new shoes, wardrobe, take steps to further sever M, mediation, taking over the house, the possibility of her dating other men (although no evidence, red flags) , doing things out of the norm, ignoring me other than for S2 and money, etc. It would upset me. I'd try not to show it or convey it. But had to ask myself for other than the sake of attachment, why am I allowing this to upset me? What does it mean to me? Why am I being so insecure? When you see hickeys on H's neck what goes through your mind? You are upset by this and I understand why. In your mind you still love your H. In his mind the R is over and he isn't doing any wrong. But still knows he is. (See the justification there based on feelings?) Does it affect your self worth based on his actions? Does it feel like the person and partner you thought you knew actually isn't anymore? But why is another persons choices whether good or bad being tied to our self esteem regardless of what rights and wrongs we made during our M? It feels disrespectful to us because we are in one mindset, and they are in another. It feels disrespectful because we want unity and family. But by moral and biblical code, we know what's right and what's wrong, and a lot of us do it anyway because "it feels good, it feels right, etc."

In the quagmire of all this. Its difficult to live with and change the things we regret and what we know we did wrong to push the other person away, and it gets tied to our self esteem. On the other hand, when we learn from these things and actually change them, and the other person continues to make choices not agreeable with our mindsets, morals, principles, and values, then we know there is strength in not allowing another persons decisions, actions, etc. Phase us. You want to know who is the better woman regardless of past transgressions? The one who is standing for her S1.5, standing for their marriage, and standing for her family. You are not standing for your current H's and his actions. You are standing for your principles for what you know is good and and what is right. This is about you're personal values and character and actions and not theirs. I know these things shake you as it does to all of this. But there is strength being build behold the scenes every time we are exposed to it.

I've noticed right before during and after every breakup I've gone through. The person changed significantly in their behavior before, during, and after. First some form of depression, then some form of change and pushing away that makes them unrecognizable to us, then some type of pursuit torwards another life, or with another person. These are people that once wanted and desired everything we are and had to offer, and now no longer do. So I ask the big question? Who is right for operating on principle, and who is right for operating on feelings? Which one has more longevity, happiness, and integrity attached to it? Just my thoughts.

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Scout, I know for a fact they can be ‘nice guys’ or probably better, nice girls. In my work I have assisted dozens if not hundreds of women during very difficult times. A heck of a lot displayed what I now know as nice guy syndrome tendencies. It is rarely in my experience demonstrated by the men I’ve assisted, but I’ve assisted far more women.

I’m troubled by what you said about your urges. Can you talk to your family or really good friends tonight about that and talk through it? Are you ok right now?

Glad you made it to a concert! I’m going to see my favourite 90s bands in concert next year!

Ihlacs- again beautifully said mate. You sure you weren’t Confucius or Buddha in a past life? I love reading your insights


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
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IHCLACS, I’m kinda speechless. What you explained was like a bolt of lightning. That concept goes a long way to helping me understand my inner turmoil. Logically, I shouldn’t want to be with someone like my H, but I feel unable to let go. Why? I’ve been beating myself up over it for weeks, thinking I’m weak and allowing my heart to overrule my head. Now I realise it’s not because I’m being a doormat, but because I am acting on principle. Something I’ve done consistently this entire time. That actually shows tremendous strength. It’s not to say I haven’t reacted emotionally at times, because I have, but that isn’t necessarily weakness either. It’s authentic. I’m teaching my son to validate and process his emotions. I cried driving home from my Halloween party tonight, so I tried to reassure him through the tears.

M: Mama is sad. It’s okay to feel sad. We all feel sad sometimes. That’s when we ask for help or a cuddle.
S: Mama sad.
M: Yes, but it’s okay. Do you want to hold my hand?
S: Hand please.
M: Love you, S.
S: Love you, mama.

DS, I called my parents and they came to spend some time with me and hear me out. I’m relaxing now with a cuppa watching The Office. Thanks for caring. Ps. I saw The Chemical Brothers, love 90s music! Enjoy.


Last edited by scout12; 11/01/19 12:06 PM.

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