Slow and Steady

[Jac12]

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W came by this morning to pick up our S2 for the day. We ended up chatting for awhile, started with her asking about the separation agreement.

W: I just don't see how either of us can afford to live on our own in our current places (she's worried she'll be making far less than she was last year).
Me: Yes, I see that it would be more difficult.

I then made the mistake of suggesting we could actually work on our marriage and see if we can turn this back around.

W: We shouldn't be doing it for financial reasons though.
Me: I completely agree. For me there are other reasons if you're interested in hearing them.
W: (sits down) Sure what are the reasons?
Me: We have a child together. And most importantly I think we've been going through the toughest stage in our relationship and we werent equipped with the knowledge of how to handle it. I think we can get back there if we both choose to want that.
W: I see that but I'm not sure if you were ever passionate about me.
Me: I can assure you I was but didn't really know how to express myself, especially as I felt you pulling away. I just thought we'd get through it. I can't go back in time but I understand how that made you feel.
W: I felt like you were judging me and I couldn't be myself (starts getting teary) and I don't want that for the rest of my life.
Me: I see I made you feel bad. I agree that I've been too judgmental in the past and I didn't realize how that affected you. I certainly don't want you to feel that way either and I think I've made improvements in that area and I want to love and accept you for who you are, warts and all. I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

She also said there hasn't been any EA or PA's but she admitted that she was liking the attention she was getting from other men (mostly even from her work friends) and it made her feel appreciated and special. I again said I was sorry that I didn't do enough to make her feel that way. Having a baby and dealing with her dad's illness maybe got in the way of us connecting like we used to.

We kind of left it at that so we will see if she thinks about this further...I don't think she will at this point so I'm not getting my hopes up.

But I took the following from the conversation:
1) She's maybe not as finished as I thought she was but it's still looking bleak.
2) The root of the problem was her not feeling special, loved, and accepted. Combined with everything going on around us and in our lives she felt trapped in her current situation.

Moving forward:

1) No expectations but I'll continue to detach with love.
2) I'll invite her out to the odd family outing. She can choose whether to accept or not. (I did this last week, just invited her to the park with us, and although she said she was stuck at work she said: "thanks for thinking of me, have fun, heart).
3) I will do the odd thing that makes her feel special and loved (unless you guys say that's a bad idea). Im not going over the top but even just something little here and there to let her know I'm trying to make her life easier and more enjoyable.
4) I will continue to move forward with the S agreement as really nothing has changed in the situation and she needs to start helping out.

As always, I appreciate any thoughts.

[Jac12]

Last post:

W came by this morning to pick up our S2 for the day. We ended up chatting for awhile, started with her asking about the separation agreement.

W: I just don't see how either of us can afford to live on our own in our current places (she's worried she'll be making far less than she was last year).
Me: Yes, I see that it would be more difficult.

I then made the mistake of suggesting we could actually work on our marriage and see if we can turn this back around.

W: We shouldn't be doing it for financial reasons though.
Me: I completely agree. For me there are other reasons if you're interested in hearing them.
W: (sits down) Sure what are the reasons?
Me: We have a child together. And most importantly I think we've been going through the toughest stage in our relationship and we werent equipped with the knowledge of how to handle it. I think we can get back there if we both choose to want that.
W: I see that but I'm not sure if you were ever passionate about me.
Me: I can assure you I was but didn't really know how to express myself, especially as I felt you pulling away. I just thought we'd get through it. I can't go back in time but I understand how that made you feel.
W: I felt like you were judging me and I couldn't be myself (starts getting teary) and I don't want that for the rest of my life.
Me: I see I made you feel bad. I agree that I've been too judgmental in the past and I didn't realize how that affected you. I certainly don't want you to feel that way either and I think I've made improvements in that area and I want to love and accept you for who you are. I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

She also said there hasn't been any EA or PA's but she admitted that she was liking the attention she was getting from other men (mostly even from her work friends) and it made her feel appreciated and special. I again said I was sorry that I didn't do enough to make her feel that way. Having a baby and dealing with her dad's illness maybe got in the way of us connecting like we used to.

We kind of left it at that so we will see if she thinks about this further...I don't think she will at this point so I'm not getting my hopes up.

But I took the following from the conversation:
1) She's maybe not as finished as I thought she was but it's still looking bleak.
2) The root of the problem was her not feeling special, loved, and accepted. Combined with everything going on around us and in our lives she felt trapped in her current situation.

Moving forward:

1) No expectations but I'll continue to detach with love.
2) I'll invite her out to the odd family outing. She can choose whether to accept or not. (I did this last week, just invited her to the park with us, and although she said she was stuck at work she said: "thanks for thinking of me, have fun, heart).
3) I will do the odd thing that makes her feel special and loved (unless you guys say that's a bad idea). Im not going over the top but even just something little here and there to let her know I'm trying to make her life easier and more enjoyable.
4) I will continue to move forward with the S agreement as really nothing has changed in the situation and she needs to start helping out.

As always, I appreciate any thoughts.

[Ready2Change]

As always, I appreciate any thoughts.

My2Cents:

Much less talking from you and more listening to understand how she FEELS. Read the validation thread again.



W: We shouldn't be doing it for financial reasons though.
Me: I completely agree. For me there are other reasons if you're interested in hearing them.



W: I see that but I'm not sure if you were ever passionate about me.
Me: I am sorry you feel that way.




W: I felt like you were judging me and I couldn't be myself (starts getting teary) and I don't want that for the rest of my life.
Me: I see I made you feel bad.I agree that I've been too judgmental in the past and I didn't realize how that affected you. I certainly don't want you to feel that way either and I think I've made improvements in that area and I want to love and accept you for who you are. I'm sorry I made you feel that way.





Go to a coffee shop, sit near two women talking. One will be talking and the other will be listening. Observe without getting caught..IE listen to them while staring at your phone. Learn this important skill.

[AnotherStander]

Jac, you did a pretty good job of listening and validating but R2C's advice is spot on. It's very easy to slip into "fix-it" mode instead of continuing to just listen and validate.

Now you said what you wanted to say and she knows you're still Plan B, so just leave it alone. No more pressure. She'll approach you if she decides she's interested in discussing recon.

[Jac12]

Thanks R2C, AS...I do appreciate the input.

Not "fixing" is what I find the most challenging. I always figure there must be a way to turn this around but I'm sensing that doing nothing (but validating and working on myself) is likely the best option. Even then, we may not make it back.

Last week I invited her to join me and S2 at the park. She couldn't make it but she seemed thankful that I asked and was thinking about her. Put a heart at the end. I'm debating between more manipulative behaviour or genuine thanks. I guess I need to not worry about either answer and just keep on. But I've read to continue doing what works so I invited this evening and she plans on coming.

Since there is no clear evidence of an A, should I ask her to join (on a limited basis) now and then? Or wait until she asks to join us?

[Traveler]

I felt like you were judging me and I couldn't be myself (starts getting teary) and I don't want that for the rest of my life.

It sounds like there's some hope. She used "I" statements instead of "You" statements and is trying to express her feelings, even if the "I" statements suggest the blame is yours.

Me: I see I made you feel bad. I agree that I've been too judgmental in the past and I didn't realize how that affected you. I certainly don't want you to feel that way either and I think I've made improvements in that area and I want to love and accept you for who you are. I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

I hear my old me. "Oh, the problem is X. I caused X. Let me fix X. I'm sorry for X!"

Today I'd be like, Me: "You felt like you couldn't be yourself?"
Her: <nods>
Me: That sounds hard.
Her: Yeah, it was..

I'd be curious when she started feeling that way, why she felt judged, what she wanted to do, and who she wanted to be. It feels good to be heard and understood. Sometimes that matters more than the fix.

[joejoe1]

Jac,

I think asking her to join on a limited bias, will be seen as pressure. Keep the pressure off. Keep doing what works. For now just keep shooting off the emails, and have no expectations on her response. Let her give you the ok, that she whats to up the visits.

When drop the having expectations, the feeling of fixing and controlling will subside. We are program to have an answer and way out. In this situation, the fastest way out, is being patient and not having answers or fixes. You need to worry about fixing/working on yourself.

[Jac12]

I'd be curious when she started feeling that way, why she felt judged, what she wanted to do, and who she wanted to be. It feels good to be heard and understood. Sometimes that matters more than the fix.


[/quote]

I think it started on a vacation we were on. We were talking about our pasts and she was fairly wild in high school. Nothing too crazy but got into some drugs (weed, ecstacy, hash). My past involves a father who was a cocaine addict (since recovered) and a brother who was stoned all the time and never really did anything with his life. So I've always wanted to be with someone who wasn't interested in that stuff because I didn't want to worry about it.

When she told me about the ecstasy I 100% made her feel bad for her past. Which was silly because she wasn't the same person anymore. I remember her saying that she felt like I didn't accept her because of that.

So I think it started there and it triggered little things like I think I was making her feel bad for not being active and taking care of herself. In my mind I was responding to what she said she wanted (better butt or legs) and trying to be supportive. I guess it came across in a different way. Bottom line is I can see her point and it's something I'm trying to be aware of as I don't want to be that person. I'm 100% accepting of my friends but for some reason I've struggled to be the same in my closest relationships.

[Jac12]

Update:

My BIL stopped by the house while my W was looking after our son. He basically gave her crap for not being a good mom, and not working on the marriage, and a few other things. He's wanted to tell her his thoughts for awhile now so he wanted to get it off his chest. He's newly engaged and knows his sister very well. She's always on to the newest shiny thing. I guess he was hoping to wake her up a little bit - mostly because she's not fighting for time with our son. He called me after and told me the gist of it and said she was pretty upset when he left.

So when I got home we put our son to bed and I asked if she was okay because she looked a bit upset. She started crying and said "Ask BIL why I'm crying". I said I didn't understand and asked again what was wrong.

Well, it got into a long conversation about how everyone is against her and thinks she's a terrible mother and person. I validated as much as I could and said: "and that upsets you right?" she said "of course it does".

She said a lot of things and I also said some things but tried to speak as little (or at least less than I normally do) as possible. I did stay very calm and spoke clearly and directly.

I did mention that the people closest to her all think that she's had a lot to deal with and it's possible that it affected her in ways that were out of her control. Post Partum, father's cancer, father dying, moving to new city with no friends, etc. She agreed and said it probably affected our relationship but she's too far gone now and doesn't want to work at it.

She did leave a slight crack saying that maybe she'll feel differently in the future, who knows what the future holds but right now she's closed to me.

She also mentioned she hasn't fought for more time with our son because I'm a good dad and she didn't want to take him away from me.

She has agreed though to do some consistent counselling and she just got a message from the family doctor about being referred to a psychiatrist.

After all this, here's what I think: She's having an affair. She wont' work on our marriage or go to counselling. No interest at all. Our son is never at her condo (hasnt' been there since February). I bought her a plant 6 weeks ago and she wouldn't take it to her condo. I made her pictures of her and her dad back in April and she still has them at my place. AS we know, most women don't leave a marriage unless they have someone else. Most people want to have someone in their life. Hard to believe she's giving up on our family to be single and alone. And of course if you go back to the beginning of my story there were plenty of signs early on that she was with other people (or one other person).

So, how does this change anything for me? Well I think detaching gets a little easier now. I'll be taking off my ring now for good unless we reunite down the road. I'll start the process of taking down her pictures over the next few weeks. I'll fight for my son. I will no longer initiate any conversations unless its about our son. I will be moving on with my life without her. I've done all I can to try and keep the family together. We'll see what the future brings.

[Jac12]

ANy thoughts on the above post?