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Original thread:http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2853370&page=1

Second thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2856505&page=1


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
W moved out Aug 13
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by crdcheck
The "I'll do anything" part of me is gone


You can tell us that all day long. I don't think I believe you.

Anyway, You should be willing to do anything, just don't tell her this. You should do what works, not what you feel like doing. From what I understand, "setting her free" is most effective way.

Hey, I did include "or at least dormant" after that wink

What leads you to not believe me?


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Journal:

W texted me Fri to ask me to take D to swimming on Saturday (it's W's weekend w/ D). Reason is that D3's furniture was being delivered to W's new place. So, it wasn't a "do you want to spend some time w/ D3, three days apart is a long time" question, it was to help her. I rejected out of hand, just said "I can't, I have a conflict". I did have a conflict but it wasn't critical (exercise workshop - training on a piece of equipment I own).

Continuing to move forward on the new house, had the inspection today. Went out way too late with friends last night - dinner, concert (rooftop, amazing view), bar across from my new house, then midnight pancakes... lot of fun (bit slow in the morning, ha). At least the last two parts would not have happened w/ W no matter what (she's been a real stick in the mud for years). It was actually kind of funny - when I was searching my email for the tickets for the concert I found the note I'd set her saying that I bought them and that she should look at some of the other bands at the venue because it was pretty cool. No response. That was one week before she announced the D. Made me think about how much time and effort I have put in over the years to entertain her and how little she's done in return - left to her own devices she would just sit at home watching TV. And god help you if you get her somewhere she doesn't enjoy - she doesn't find a way to enjoy it. Anyway, this is not about bad-mouthing W, it's more to say that, while I would like to R, part of me... well... part of me is excited to be free again. That part is also a little resentful of the lack of recognition over the years and then to get the boot. Anyway.

Also announced to W that I would be taking D3 to my hometown next weekend. No "if it's ok with you" etc. And if anyone is wondering, we did agree to let each other know when we are taking D3 out of town - this wasn't a social message.


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Originally Posted by LH19
You need to change your mindset and start to think about what YOU would need from HER to consider reconciliation.


Yeah, this is a tough one. I mean, as you can see in the journal above, I really value going out with friends, having fun. But the R is more than that and kind of tough to put into words. I mean, I haven't felt respected, liked, or loved in years and we've talked about that... I think that she's so angry that, even when she recognizes her role in our s*** marriage it's trumped by the anger so she can't change. If she texted me right now to say that she's having second thoughts I don't know what I would do. Say we need to see the MC? Give her a list of broad (e.g. "treat me with respect") or specific (e.g. "I want to go out at least once a week") demands? If it were right this moment I would probably tell her that I need more time and space before I can talk about reconciliation but that I would be willing to listen to what she's proposing (then validate, validate, validate...). Fast forward 3-6 months, if she asked about reconciling... yeah, what do I say? Probably an academic question wink

Look, here's the thing - I just want to be loved and accepted for who I am, to be able to be vulnerable with her. I would trade a lot for that and, while I can get it from others, I can't get my family with anyone else. So, if she said that she could do that, was willing to work on her contributions to the s***iness of the MR, and would drop the history then I'd be happy to give it a shot. Probably not the right approach...


M(35), W(35), D(4)
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crd -

You don't need to tell your W a list of demands. And if she satisfied all those overnight, you wouldn't just accept her back. Just as you cannot earn back trust overnight, she cannot earn you back overnight. Funny how that works, right?

But the point is you can have those things in your mind, and look for change over time.

Look at the last paragraph of your post -- as soon as you think about what you would need to see change, you start to embrace your own needs:

You want to be loved and accepted.

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Journal (Mostly):

This was a tough weekend. W had D3 which was planned, no issues (sad dropping her off at school on Fri knowing I wouldn't see her until Tues). Went out with friends Friday (stayed out too late), Saturday was a recovery, workout, and work day (had to catch up on some items from the week). Made myself a nice dinner on Sat, all good. Got a call from W 3:30 AM Sun that she was taking D3 to the ER, breathing issues. She said that I didn't have to come but of course I did. D3 has had a cold for the past two weeks that has turned into asthma or something else, hospital decided to admit her to be able to give regular treatments. She'll be fine. Once I realized we'd be at the hospital all day I went home to grab some books for D3 and a couple of small toys as gifts (we keep them around for mini special occasions). Honestly, D3 had a great day - lots of TV and toys, she was pretty ok (if a little short-tempered due to lack of sleep).

I struggled a bit with how to interact with W and I have a feeling that you all will tell me that I could have handled myself better. Everything was pleasant but W was in friend-mode, asking about what I was up to on Fri ("oh, you went to a concert? Was that with your brother and so-and-so?") and I couldn't help but to be friendly back. We got talking about work stuff - she was bragging about something which kind of annoyed me but I kept myself positive. Overall, it was really cordial.

Non-Journal:
Areas where I question myself include getting her coffee (I mean, someone had to stay in the room w/ D3) and not being more "mysterious" re: activities (I can say that I didn't want there to be awkwardness in front of D3 but is that just an excuse). I do think that I did well by not offering to walk what is now her dog, getting her stuff from her place, asking if she wanted anything while I made my run home, offering to stay with D3 today so she could go to work, etc. Those would have all been my natural inclination (and I probably would have offered any friend the same).

Back to Journal:
On an annoying note, her parents drove in and her dad still basically won't look at me. I guess I'm not really annoyed at this point; it's more a mix of amusement, dismissiveness, and sadness. Once they arrived I left - it is W's weekend with D3 anyway and three adults is plenty. W did say that situations like this supersede custody (which I agree with) but, given that D3 was getting plenty of care and attention, I felt no need to hang out and risk weirdness.

Odd thing - W and I have a mutual friend who was close with both but closer with W. We actually took two vacations together. Friend lives one block from the hospital and was going to stop by to bring lunch but supposedly decided not to when she learned that W's parents were on the way. It's really strange because she's been close with all of us (including D3) so I can't help but to think that W has poisoned this relationship. I've intentionally given space to friend because I assume that W is using her for support but I planned to reach out once D is finalized. Anyway, odd.

D3 will be discharged later today and going to W's house. I will send flowers over. I'd visit but I am trying to respect the custody arrangement and, if D3 isn't asking for me, I don't want to intrude (I don't want W just showing up on my days so I am setting precedent).


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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It's good that you're being reasonable and amicable especially with regard to your kids.
I think cordial but not aloof or cold works.

Yes definitely reach out ot your mutual friend. It would be a shame if your relationship with them has soured. Hopefully it is fine and they can be friends with both of you, though I understand it's hard for them as well - being used to hanging out with you as a couple and for that to suddenly stop is difficult for all involved.

I'd say keep respecting the custody and keep doing what you're doing, which is being totally approachable and non-aggressive.


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crd -

1. I agree on giving mutual friends some space. No point making these situations further entangled with anyone taking sides. If they take your W's side, well, so be it, then they aren't the best friends for you.

2. I also take great strides to respect the custody arrangement. Note that this will probably get misinterpreted as a negative thing. And even though you think you are setting precedent, your W may completely ignore it.

First when you don't have D3, your W may accuse you of showing lack of interest. Second when you do have D3, if you set boundaries about your W infringing on your time, she may get upset. Stick to your principles, but don't expect her to follow how you are handling things.

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Originally Posted by unchien
First when you don't have D3, your W may accuse you of showing lack of interest. Second when you do have D3, if you set boundaries about your W infringing on your time, she may get upset. Stick to your principles, but don't expect her to follow how you are handling things.

Yep, I'm mentally preparing myself for this. I'm sure that W was surprised and unimpressed that I went to dinner with friends after leaving leaving her and D3 at the hospital (long after the doctors determined that she was completely stable and just wanted to observe her, and after her parents arrived). And I'm fairly certain that, if it were D3's days with me that W would insist on being there the entire time (part of her martyrdom syndrome). Seems like a bridge we'll just have to cross.

New question: Our house is under contract, scheduled to close mid-September. Buyer found an issue during inspection that he wants remediated. It will take 2-3 days and the expectation is that someone is in the house the entire time. W wants me to take more than 50% of the time. If we were married it would be totally fair to split and I would be happy to rearrange my work schedule (in fact, I would be willing to do more as W's role is more demanding than mine at the moment... probably an example of my NGS but that's another topic). At this point, though, I feel like the house sale is part of the divorce which therefore is hers to manage. I'll also add that she's not asking me to be there, she's telling me: "We'll need to work out between you, me, and the realtor who can be there when." followed by the days/times she can be there, no question about my availability, "please", etc. How should I address?


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M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Originally Posted by crdcheck

New question: Our house is under contract, scheduled to close mid-September. Buyer found an issue during inspection that he wants remediated. It will take 2-3 days and the expectation is that someone is in the house the entire time. W wants me to take more than 50% of the time. If we were married it would be totally fair to split and I would be happy to rearrange my work schedule (in fact, I would be willing to do more as W's role is more demanding than mine at the moment... probably an example of my NGS but that's another topic). At this point, though, I feel like the house sale is part of the divorce which therefore is hers to manage. I'll also add that she's not asking me to be there, she's telling me: "We'll need to work out between you, me, and the realtor who can be there when." followed by the days/times she can be there, no question about my availability, "please", etc. How should I address?

You sound worried about responding to her needs, whether she says please, how you feel about what she should be doing, etc. Step back and reconnect with what you want to do.

First of all, I would consider helping out here. I don't think "Let them do all the work" applies to every single situation. It's okay to be reasonable.

However... ignore her days and times. Let her know when you are available, and what works for you. Then you can negotiate something. If you start off by trying to negotiate something that accommodates her, you have already compromised yourself.

Wife: A works for me.
You: B works for me.
Wife and You: <work out something that is neither A nor B, but kinda works for both of you>

it's a great opportunity to stand up for yourself AND show you can work together with her AND not get sucked into her emotional whirlwind.

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Good advice, that's exactly what I did. We'll see how she responds.

Yes re: worrying about responding to her needs, etc. For me it goes back to this sense of entitlement I get from her. It doesn't bother me in an emotional way anymore (I'm detaching) but I am now noticing it. We are no longer partners but she is wanting to treat me like one when it suits her. I guess, if she was more like "hey, it's going to be really tough for me... I'd appreciate it if... etc." then I'd be more inclined to do something to help her. She complains about how much time she's missed work and, in my head, I'm thinking "hey, that's your choice, live with it". Of course, I instead validate.


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Originally Posted by crdcheck
Yes re: worrying about responding to her needs, etc. For me it goes back to this sense of entitlement I get from her. It doesn't bother me in an emotional way anymore (I'm detaching) but I am now noticing it. We are no longer partners but she is wanting to treat me like one when it suits her. I guess, if she was more like "hey, it's going to be really tough for me... I'd appreciate it if... etc." then I'd be more inclined to do something to help her. She complains about how much time she's missed work and, in my head, I'm thinking "hey, that's your choice, live with it". Of course, I instead validate.

I'm right there with you, brother.

The endless complaining, how their life is over, how they need you when only when it suits them... it's all very familiar.

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Journal:

Just met W in a conference room (reminder: we work at the same place) to discuss D3's medical care. She's at school today but requires several medications, different activities over the coming week so there was 20 minutes-worth of stuff to cover. I'm feeling down all of a sudden. It's weird, the time at the hospital was fine, almost good, and now I'm feeling down. I just explained to my boss what was going on (there are enough strange goings-on that I finally had to say something). I don't know why, but I feel really sad all of a sudden.

Could also be because it looks like the house I have a contract on may fall through (seller is refusing to fix any of the issues found during the inspection) but honestly, I think that it's just seeing W in this context. And like, we're talking about D3's care and how this is something that would be so much better for D3 (consistent, two people around to back each other up) and so much easier for us... it feels like a huge loss.

She offered to help if I needed it which I politely declined. I also didn't make any small talk, kept it D3-focused. I'm just sad.


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M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Journal:

This is the first full weekend with just me and D3 and it's a long one. I've been really impressed with her - the nights I've had her she's missed her mom but not been crying, demanding to see her. When I dropped her off at school today (which she loves btw) she wanted me to stay with her, was sad that I had to go to work. That's new and I think it's indicative of us building up our 1:1 relationship. We were supposed to go to my hometown for the weekend but most of the activities there she can't do because she's still recovering from the asthma thing last weekend so we're only going for a night to see some family. Instead she wants a haircut (trim) tomorrow (her ask, not mine... surprised she didn't want to do it with mom), science museum after, then movie night. So, lots to do. Sun/Mon driving to/from hometown.

I guess I shouldn't wonder but I can't help myself - this will be the longest W has gone without seeing D3, what's going to be going on in her mind? Newfound freedom? Anxiety (e.g. "Is H giving D3 the medicine at the right time? What's he feeding her?")? Sadness (missing her)? This is the area where I'm most surprised that she is pulling the trigger on D - I mean, she loves D3 more than anything in the world and she is giving up 50% of her time rather than trying a R/piecing approach and/or considering that she had some responsibility for the MR failing. It is what it is but that's what shocks me so much. Leaving me, sure. Leaving D3? Wow.

I am really enjoying the space away from W. Well, "enjoying" is too strong of a word. What I mean to say is that it's nice to not have to worry so much about what or how I say something will be interpreted by her. Parts are lonely - I didn't imagine that doing solo acts as a couple (e.g. watching TV) was so much more fun than doing them solo.

Mover came on Weds to give a quote. He mentioned that the house was half empty and I told him that I was getting divorced. He said he'd had four divorces (!!!) but was now happily married for 10 years. I was shocked and hopeful... and shocked. I can't imagine going through this again. He only has a kid with one of them so that may make a difference.


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Question: W's birthday is coming up. I don't plan to get her anything (duh) but what about from D3 (i.e. should I get something with D3 to give to her mom)?

Also, I'm the type of person who buys things for people as he sees them and then saves for birthdays/holidays, so I have a couple of books I bought for her dad. Do I give to him or just leave in closet? I'm thinking that I maintain my space but want another opinion.


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Still hoping for some perspective on the above questions. Also a new situation:

I need W to sign a waiver so I can finance my new house. Also need to not file for divorce prior to closing (Sept 26). I haven't mentioned that I'm buying a house (none of her business, until now) and I'm worried how she is going to react, that she might throw a wrench into the gears or try to extort something out of me. That hasn't happened in the past but times are different - between the sense of entitlement she's always had and my newly-implemented unwillingness to bend to her expectations I believe that she's somewhat upset with me (more on that below).

Oh, also, I think that she's spying on me. Any suggestions for how to deal with it? She texted me about something this weekend that the only ways she could have known would have been if she was in my email (but none of her devices show in the record), my credit card (but I don't think that she has the password, I changed regardless), or had stopped by "our" house (and went through my receipts I had in my closet - i.e. no reason for her to be there). I have nothing to hide so I'm not really bothered, it's more curious than anything else.

Journal (for context, can skip):

So, this was a really good weekend, had D3 from Thursday through tomorrow 8 AM (swap at school). Lots of activities though had to adjust given the need to keep her inside and less active after the asthma scare the weekend before. D3 didn't ask about her mom even once. She mentioned in passing that "I have two houses, mom's is the girls' house!" but nothing like "I miss mom". I was really impressed and I feel like that is indicative of the relationship I've built with her. I was also proud that I took her a trip without any assistance from anyone else. W and my MIL always helped to pack and such which was appreciated, but I also think that they didn't think I could handle it on my own. I did it with flying colors.

End journal:

So, W was mad, though, when on Sun she texted me to ask to facetime D3 saying that this is the longest she'd ever gone without seeing her. If D3 asks to see her mom I will absolutely make that happen but if she's in good spirits then I see it as a risk to do it since, in the past, she's gotten upset when saying goodbye. Furthermore, this is D3's time with me and my family (her grandparents, cousins, etc.). I don't see why I should take her time away from them to video chat with someone she's not asking about. To me this seems selfish. W sees it differently, that she made sure to video chat with me when she took D3 to her hometown in May (but that was before W left the house) and that I'd spent time with her last weekend (at the hospital). Again, I will never keep D3 from her parents but I don't feel that I should have to encourage it, either. Thoughts?


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crdcheck -

For your W's birthday, I would absolutely get her something from D3. I think it would be callous not to. I would not give the stuff to her dad though.

For the house... like it or not your W has some leverage because you need something from her. Extortion is a strong term, consider it a negotiation where she has leverage, and then consider how you want to proceed with the negotiation.

For the spying... hard to answer without knowing more info. If you think it's unrealistic that she had access to your e-mail, credit cards, or receipts, could there be another reason she might know this information? Or could she just be bluffing?

For the video chats (and this is where I may run counter to DB advice) - I also prefer to respect each others' time with the kids. However, we have an agreement right now that the parent without the kids can ask to do a quick video chat once a day. When the kids are with me, I get a little annoyed, but when they aren't with me, I love chatting with them. Long-term, if we D, obviously this would have to tail off. For now I look at this as a good way to keep our young children connected to both of us during a transition that must be hard on them. So far these chats have been limited to 5-10 minutes most nights so it is not particularly disruptive. Sometimes the kids are bored. Obviously you are in a different situation than me -- I would suggest taking some time to think what is best for D3, even if she is not directly asking for it, and then go with that.

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Originally Posted by unchien

For your W's birthday, I would absolutely get her something from D3. I think it would be callous not to. I would not give the stuff to her dad though.

I was thinking the same but I'm biased toward being nice to her so wanted to be sure.
Originally Posted by unchien

For the spying... hard to answer without knowing more info. If you think it's unrealistic that she had access to your e-mail, credit cards, or receipts, could there be another reason she might know this information? Or could she just be bluffing?

I am certain that she knew what she was saying, and she has access to everything, technically, since she still has a key to our house (it's ours after all). It's either the receipts I left on a dresser (next to keys, random pocket stuff) or email. Everything else would require knowledge of a random password and we don't share those (I mean, as part of my rebuilding trust I would share anything, but she didn't ask for those). When she texted me about the thing she knew (related to D3), I acknowledged the event and then asked her how she knew. She didn't reply and I didn't follow up.
Originally Posted by unchien

For the video chats (and this is where I may run counter to DB advice) - I also prefer to respect each others' time with the kids. However, we have an agreement right now that the parent without the kids can ask to do a quick video chat once a day. When the kids are with me, I get a little annoyed, but when they aren't with me, I love chatting with them. Long-term, if we D, obviously this would have to tail off. For now I look at this as a good way to keep our young children connected to both of us during a transition that must be hard on them. So far these chats have been limited to 5-10 minutes most nights so it is not particularly disruptive. Sometimes the kids are bored. Obviously you are in a different situation than me -- I would suggest taking some time to think what is best for D3, even if she is not directly asking for it, and then go with that.

Yeah, that's one way to look at it, and I can definitely see what you are saying. If I felt that it was in D3's best interests I wouldn't hesitate, but I also don't want this to be a form of cake eating. D3 moved half of her stuff out, had D3 living with her before her bed even arrived so she had to sleep in mom's bed... as far as I can tell, this is all about W and her wants rather than D3's. Having said that, if I ask D3 every day if she wants to talk with W and some days she does, others she doesn't (e.g. yesterday she didn't want to because she'd spoken with her on Sunday) what's the loss to me? If she ends the calls upset then I can always change my approach. Alright, you helped me talk myself into it - I need to remind D3 that she has the option to talk w/ her mother.


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Originally Posted by crdcheck
Having said that, if I ask D3 every day if she wants to talk with W and some days she does, others she doesn't (e.g. yesterday she didn't want to because she'd spoken with her on Sunday) what's the loss to me? If she ends the calls upset then I can always change my approach. Alright, you helped me talk myself into it - I need to remind D3 that she has the option to talk w/ her mother.

I think the key here is don't do it just because your W will get upset if you don't.

For me, cake-eating or not, I don't mind the 5-10 minute call for now. Mostly because I get it reciprocated and I really enjoy it. Maybe we are both cake-eating by playing family or whatever. So be it. Our kids are young, this is a hard adjustment, and I'm not about to go 10 days between talking with them.

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Well, that went sideways quickly. W just texted to let me know that she was picking up D3 from school even though it is my night. She said that we agreed to "swap" days after long weekends (so, since I had Fri-Mon, she would get Tues which D3's night w/ me). I immediately checked the agreement from the mediator and that's not there. W asked that I call which I did, and she is certain that there was conversation about it. Frankly, she might be right but I don't recall it - those are stressful sessions and there is a lot to discuss. That's why I ask for the notes. So, W is sitting in the car waiting to hear back from the mediator's office as to what the notes actually say. Meanwhile...

W starts in on me saying that I've gone back on my promise to act like friends, do things together, that I won't even have a conversation with her. It went something like this:

W: You won't say more than a few words to me.
Me: I'm sorry that you feel that way
W: It's not what we discussed, you said we were going to be friends and do things as a family
Me: I hear you, you thought that we would continue as a family and you're not getting that
W: Stop saying "I hear you", it doesn't solve the problem, what are you going to do?
Me: I get where you are coming from, I'm moving on with my life [NOTE: this is where I sort of lock up, like she's right, I'm avoiding confrontation]
W: What does that even mean? That you can't talk to me about random things when we are in the room together with D3? I want D3 to have a normal childhood with parents and this isn't conducive to that
Me: I'm sorry that you are upset by this, I get it that it's not what you expected. I have D3's best interests at heart and things between the two of us are going really well.
W: You think that it's in D3's best interests that we don't talk at all?
[rinse and repeat a few times from above]
Me: I'm moving on with my life [in another "rinse and repeat" I actually said that I was "detaching"] and this is part of the process, I'm sorry that you aren't happy with it
W: Then tell me about this "process" so I can align to it
Me: I'm managing myself just fine, and I get that it's not what you expected, I'm not in the position to give you any advice, though
W: I'm not looking for advice, I want what's in D3's best interests ... (same as above)
Me: I'm establishing a boundary here, I'm at work and I don't have anything to add to this conversation that has not already been said
W: [more of above]
Me: [continues to engage - shouldn't have but was trying to not just hang up]
W: [more]
Me: Ok, I hear you, have you heard from the mediator yet (re: custody swap thing)?
W: No
Me: Ok, I'm going back to work, let me know what you hear. Bye.
W: ...
Me: [hang up]

I'll tell you, I haven't experienced fear like I did above. She is calling me out for the validation piece, absolutely hates it. Kept goading me to disagree with her. I don't know if I should not have said that I was detaching but it's a real struggle to not share my perspective (and to not pull in other stuff like the spying or all the fun I had with D3 this weekend without her). I don't know if I should be proud or sad.

Epilogue - she was right and I was wrong. The swap day thing was real. It just wasn't in the notes I was sent by the mediator. I didn't dig my heals in so no issues there but I'm sure that W is going to be telling everyone who will listen that I can't even remember a conversation and that I'm keeping D3 from her. I know that the divorce is going through and so I shouldn't be concerned about things getting worse but I can't tell you how much anxiety I have at this very moment. And it pains me so much that she has this bs view that I'm a bad father and is telling everyone that, people who may then be poisoning D3. Probably part of my NGS, too - I hate being disliked. Ugh, this is not how I thought my day would go.


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First, I empathize with you, we talk about stuff in MC (which is basically, "separation mediation") all the time and have these issues where we hear different things. It happens. When it comes to hard facts (dates/times/etc) I try to take notes real-time. But I make little mistakes too. I wouldn't feel too bad about it. You could extend a small olive branch and say that you are sorry you forgot the details of the agreement. Up to you.

Regarding the conversation, obviously shorter would have been better. And actually using the words "validation" and "detachment" probably didn't help although I'm glad you had those touchstones in your mind. It seems like you were running stream of consciousness, telling your W exactly what was going on inside your mind. Just as we hide our DB books, I think it's best if we obfuscate our DB techniques.

One thing you may consider is asking your W: What exactly does she think is in D3's best interest? Is that... family dinners once a week? Something else? All I see in the above conversation is her anger. It's kind of hard to respond when she's attacking but not stating what she wants.

So the conversation went too long and you both said stuff you probably regret. The line she said that makes the least sense: I want D3 to have a normal childhood with parents and this isn't conducive to that. It's a glimpse into the cognitive dissonance going on inside the WAS brain.

It's possible she is just sensing a lot of icy detachment. Remember the friendly part. Last weekend my W was leaving to go to a bachelorette party, and had to wear a bridesmaid's dress from 10 years ago. She said she washed it and it must have shrunk. I just smirked and said, "I'm not even touching that one." She laughed. I try to keep it light-hearted, even while I'm fully detaching. Maybe it's my own way of dealing with the suckage.

Sorry that this is a bunch of random thoughts. My last thought: I'm totally with you on wanting your full rights as D3's father. Your W is experiencing a lot of this as you being cold, uncompromising, etc. How you balance this with overcoming NGS is a major struggle -- do you yield a little bit, just to keep things flowing? Or is that falling back into bad habits? Ideally, I think if you can balance standing up for yourself with a bit more of a light-hearted approach, perhaps that will help. I don't know, man. Sorry I can't help more.

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Originally Posted by unchien
First, I empathize with you, we talk about stuff in MC (which is basically, "separation mediation") all the time and have these issues where we hear different things. It happens. When it comes to hard facts (dates/times/etc) I try to take notes real-time. But I make little mistakes too. I wouldn't feel too bad about it. You could extend a small olive branch and say that you are sorry you forgot the details of the agreement. Up to you.

Yep, I apologized twice via text, this is 100% on me. not NGS or whatever, I made a mistake.

Originally Posted by unchien

Regarding the conversation, obviously shorter would have been better. And actually using the words "validation" and "detachment" probably didn't help although I'm glad you had those touchstones in your mind. It seems like you were running stream of consciousness, telling your W exactly what was going on inside your mind. Just as we hide our DB books, I think it's best if we obfuscate our DB techniques.

No disagreement but what do I say instead? I know my W, she's like me - understanding each other (or at least believing that we do) doesn't move the ball forward, she wants me to do what she wants and anything other than that is unacceptable. I don't see a way out, but...
Originally Posted by unchien

One thing you may consider is asking your W: What exactly does she think is in D3's best interest? Is that... family dinners once a week? Something else? All I see in the above conversation is her anger. It's kind of hard to respond when she's attacking but not stating what she wants.

Yes, sure, but I expect that she'll say that she wants us to be friends, take D3 to movies, have a family dinner 2x/month. And then what do I say? "No, I'm moving on with my life". I mean, really, what do I say? I can ask what she wants, etc., but that's not what I want, and that's going to spawn an argument. And I can't say "listen, I want to be married to you, nothing short of that will suffice".
Originally Posted by unchien

So the conversation went too long and you both said stuff you probably regret. The line she said that makes the least sense: I want D3 to have a normal childhood with parents and this isn't conducive to that. It's a glimpse into the cognitive dissonance going on inside the WAS brain.

To be fair, I may have missed a detail or two, but the sentiment was there - how do we make this as good as possible for D3? And I want to scream "by working through our issues, we're both good, smart people, let's look inward and see how we both contributed to this s*** situation!" But I don't.
Originally Posted by unchien

It's possible she is just sensing a lot of icy detachment. Remember the friendly part. Last weekend my W was leaving to go to a bachelorette party, and had to wear a bridesmaid's dress from 10 years ago. She said she washed it and it must have shrunk. I just smirked and said, "I'm not even touching that one." She laughed. I try to keep it light-hearted, even while I'm fully detaching. Maybe it's my own way of dealing with the suckage.

You are 100% correct, she's taking it as icy. I'm getting a lot of bragging from her about work, her place, etc., and then her dad won't talk to me. I don't enjoy being with her right now and I don't really want to engage when every conversation is her saying how much better she is than me. So, I'm trying to share less, be mysterious and all that. To be fair, we don't have the opportunity to be pleasant, positive, and all that. I mean, if D3 hadn't been in the hospital last weekend I wouldn't have seen W for two weeks. So, is she catching ice or just confused at the lack of pursuit?
Originally Posted by unchien

Sorry that this is a bunch of random thoughts. My last thought: I'm totally with you on wanting your full rights as D3's father. Your W is experiencing a lot of this as you being cold, uncompromising, etc. How you balance this with overcoming NGS is a major struggle -- do you yield a little bit, just to keep things flowing? Or is that falling back into bad habits? Ideally, I think if you can balance standing up for yourself with a bit more of a light-hearted approach, perhaps that will help. I don't know, man. Sorry I can't help more.

I wish that I had the opportunity to be light hearted. I will pat myself on the back that I didn't dig in this evening and insist that I was right. Even if I had been right it wouldn't have been helpful. But I'll paraphrase what Steve85 has said in the past - when I do something for her, do I get anything in return? She has this huge entitlement thing going on, anything I "give" her she feels she is owed so I get nothing. She's poisoned everyone in her circle against me including family, friends, and a half-dozen colleagues. I can do nothing right in her eyes. One of my 180s is standing up for myself even on small things (another is accepting her influence - if she asks, I'll consider; if she orders or demands, it's a different discussion).

So, I don't know - I guess I'm proud that I didn't throw anything back at her and I'm sad that I mentioned the detaching (QUESTION: how do I manage situations where I'm saying the same thing again and again... I don't want to shut her down but there are only so many ways to say "I'm moving on..."). I feel like she's going to be angry unless I act like a friend.


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Hi crd I feel your confusion and pain. I think the time will come when the veil of fake friendship will need to be lifted by you. I can’t remember who said it here, but when she challenges why you’re not acting as a friend, you simply and quietly say ‘it doesn’t work for me and that’s my decision’. You’ll couple that with a firmly resolved facial expression before turning your back and leaving without another word.

Where you feel the same thing is being said over and over, before that happens I’d say ‘this conversation isn’t working for me, we’ll discuss things another time’ then leave.

Your canned reply will need to be short so you remember it. Practice your facial expression and posture in the mirror. Good luck buddy, D


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Hey DS9, I hear you, and thanks for the support. I am confused which gives me anxiety which then makes me not think straight which impedes my ability to choose the right words. I like your words and it gives me confidence that others are saying to be firm. All of a sudden it feels like I'm the one having to let her down gently - I'm not good at cutting things off. So, appreciate the guidance.

Journal (?)

This does seem like kind of a weird situation - we were stuck together for 12 hours in a hospital rather than 10 minutes in passing and I don't think that I was icy there but I did catch myself oversharing (i.e. not being mysterious) and then having W brag about whatever (work stuff, name dropping, new house, trip to NYC). I have a lot I could brag about, too, but it wouldn't make the moment better for anyone, so I pretty much did my own thing - played with D3 and, when not playing with her, fooled around on my phone. She might have preferred that I talk to her. Funny thing is that she didn't care when I asked her not to be on her phone when it was just the two of us (before separation). Who knows.

I think that she takes the texts as icy, too. For a short while she would text about the dog or something random and I'd either not acknowledge or say "sorry to hear that, poor girl" (dog was ill). Definitely not the old me who would have offered to help or something.

Most of our communication is over text and I've moved to be short in my replies to her, only initiate conversations if it's necessary, and not jump to reply to her texts if they aren't urgent (previously, I would drop what I was doing to reply to her). I've otherwise stopped talking to her - no sharing memes or restaurants on social media, no texting pictures of D3, and so on. Part of me wonders if I've gone too far but another part of me says "what would be different if I gave her more?". Honestly, I have plenty of friends so I don't need her for that and I would like a W, that's the position I have open at this time (ha). Plus, I don't know how she's thinking this will work but we can't be doing this pseudo-family thing if we either or both of us get remarried. I don't know what's going on in her mind.

I am a bit disappointed that the space hasn't helped soothe her at all. It's clear that she's still angry at me and, while I am certainly not hoping for any miracles regarding our R, I did hope that she would stop blaming me for everything once I wasn't part of her life. I mean, I get why she's upset, but it seems a little crazy that she's chastising me for how I text her. She can see from social media that D3 and I are doing well together and she can hear it straight from D3. As long as I'm being a good father she really shouldn't have much to complain about. It's pretty amazing that she feels she has the right to tell me how I should interact with her and to not volunteer anything of her own.


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C,

You have to stop caring what she thinks and do what feels comfortable to you. If you're not cool being friends then make that clear. So you don't sound like a broken record use terms like "that doesn't work for me" "I need time to heal" "I'm not going to play happy family".

There is absolutely nothing you can do right now to turn this around so don't worry about the anger. Time and space is the only thing that can turn this around. Think 18-24 months. The more you distance yourself the better you will feel.

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Hey mate no worries glad to pitch in. Confusion and anxiety worked me over too. It’s funny because I’m good with words but with my XW I’m hopeless sometimes. It’s like they put us under a spell! Now I know what I am I’m learning how to handle things better and you will too mate.

Yeah stop the drop everything to reply and wait a few hours. Wait even longer by replying you need time to think. I did that this morning and there was an immediate worried text back saying that didn’t sound good. I could feel a momentary power shift. You need to take back the power and control even if it’s just perceived.


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Originally Posted by LH19
You have to stop caring what she thinks and do what feels comfortable to you. If you're not cool being friends then make that clear. So you don't sound like a broken record use terms like "that doesn't work for me" "I need time to heal" "I'm not going to play happy family".

What feels comfortable is begging, pleading, etc. (haha). Joking aside, I'm fine to tell her all that but I've been working more on the validation and listening rather than telling her things. Should I be more direct?
Originally Posted by LH19
There is absolutely nothing you can do right now to turn this around so don't worry about the anger. Time and space is the only thing that can turn this around. Think 18-24 months. The more you distance yourself the better you will feel.

Yes, the anger makes me feel bad and I need to get past that, but I'm also struggling with the dissonance. I mean, I would like to R, but I'd really like D3 to have a happy family, and DBing feels very counter intuitive. Part of me says "hey, let's try to be friends and maybe it will go up from there!" but everyone here is like "no way". Even my parents are somewhat confused as to why I'm not on my knees. And wouldn't it be nice for D3 to have family dinners? So, part of my struggle is trying to hold the DBing line in the face of failure and other advice. Does that make sense?


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Further to Lh19s suggestion try the ‘you do you I’ll do me’ reply which I think unchien came up with. A powerful assertion if your xw is used to acquiescence.


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I’ve got another good response straight from the mouth of my XW when explaining the BD - I’ve changed and my needs have changed. You can’t really argue against that one


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Yes you should be direct. She won’t like it but she’ll respect it.

You certainly can be friends but that won’t likely lead to reconciliation. All your daughter needs is for you two to be able to be in the same room and get along. Family dinners will probably confuse her as she gets older.

Right now you’re plan B. The quicker you show her you’re not plan B the quicker you can turn it around.

DB is very counterintuitive.

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These are great, thanks all. I had a lot of confidence over the past few weeks - I'd survived the BD, survived the S, was building my own life, didn't have the stress of dealing with W much, and all was going well, results as expected. And now this reaction, it is a bit of a hit. I mean, you all anticipated it but it still gives me pause, and, as you can see above, I struggle with how much to say, how direct to be, whether to try to listen vs. explain, and so on.

So, next opportunity, will explain simply that my needs have changed and that being friends doesn't work for me. I will always be cordial and do what is in D3's best interests.


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Last sentence is perfect. Remember validation isn’t agreeing or disagreeing with her. It’s that you understand her feelings.

It’s all about you and D3 right now.

Always be cordial and keep the path home paved smoothly.

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JOURNAL

In a bit of a weird space. Had D3 tonight, went on a "date" with her (dinner out, walked around the block, stopped at a playground along the way), really loved it. TBH is better without W. No fears of how what I say will be interpreted, D3 either focused on me or on coloring, genuinely happy to be with me. But sad that she is spending the next four days with W (or, more accurately, that I won't see her for four days). Struggle to explain that, when she talks about visiting W's hometown, I have to say that I won't be there. Or that someone will be living in our house soon. Like, does she realize that this is the new normal?

Spoke with W for 50 minutes today, just logistics. Swapping some weekends, determining when finances split, red-lining divorce papers, etc. All went well except for a brief flash on her side when I mentioned the down payment on my new place, asked her to let me know what expenses she expected in the next two weeks that may impact it. She said that my choice to spend so much shouldn't impact her (which is 100% correct). No anger on either of our parts, though - I explained that I wasn't asking for anything of her other than a) that she tell me if there were big expenses coming up (e.g. D3 tuition) and b) if she thought that I wouldn't have enough in my account for the down payment that she would let me know ahead of time. We moved through it. She seemed unphased that I'm moving forward so deliberately.

It all seems very business-like. I decided not to say my spiel about us not being friends, etc. I mean, there wasn't a clear opportunity and I don't want to compromise my move.

Candidly, the conversation felt good, and part of me wants to be friends, to say "hey, D3 wants that puzzle, can you send it with her?" or whatever, and another part of me can't wait to cut the cord and not have to talk to her. Us staying together isn't an option.

And I was doing some reading today on my state's law re: divorce, separation, etc. - we really hate cheaters, don't we? I know what I did was wrong, and I knew it when I did it. I knew that the feeling of excitement was fleeting. I just wanted to be wanted. I just wanted someone to be excited to see me. I really hate where W and I are but it's funny, I can't think of what I got out of the relationship. I feel like I'm longing for something that could have been rather than something that was. I have people who like me for who I am, I have people who have seen me for who I am, cheating POS and all, and have liked, maybe loved me as that guy. And here I am pining for someone who only seems to see me as this one thing: a lying cheater. I really question why I want to be back together. Like, as bad as I was to W, and there is no justification for my choice, I do think that, had I not made the choice to cheat, we'd both be equally responsible for our s*** MR. And that she can't see that, well, this all seems hopeless. Steve85 is right, there still isn't anything I wouldn't do to fix this. But should I? Or, put another way, should I do anything to put a bandaid on the compound fracture if she's not interested in helping to set it?

Anyway, this is just me whining. I see everyone here dealing with their cheating spouses and I know that I'm the bad guy, that the trust I betrayed isn't just between me and her, but between her and the world. And I know that everyone would say "cheaters don't deserve anything" "cheaters don't change". So maybe this is the wrong place to seek pity. It's really strange the dissonance between what is going well (relationship with D3, less stress from dealing with W, moving forward with a place I really want to live) and what... well... I guess I imagine my life could be with W? I keep thinking about "lasts". Like the last time I looked down the stairwell and saw our dog. The last time we brushed our teeth next to each other. But was that love or just the intimacy of two people who had lived together for 10 years?


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Ok, question: W asked me to watch our (now her) dog. What should I do? Here's the exact email:

"Hey-wanted to share dates I will be out of town to see if you want/or willing to take [dog's name]. Just let me know either way so I can make plans for her."

I love that dog and do miss her but W took her when she moved out. I could have asked for joint custody but, with a kid, too, it seemed like quite a lot to manage logistically, not to mention the stress to everyone involved. If I took the dog I'd probably have to figure out a walker for the dates since I'm not home during the day. W will probably have to kennel the dog if I don't take her (which is bad for the dog).

I don't know what W is thinking but I don't think that this is her trying to do something nice, I think that it's her not wanting to pay for kenneling the dog and not having to deal with drop off and pick up. So, thought on how I should approach?


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CC,

Not your issue anymore. The dog is her problem to figure out. IMO, I would decline.

You getting the dog is about her. Why do she have to wait until she is out of town for you to watch the dog?

If you feel like she is trying to use you, than most likely she is.

My response back would be, "Thanks for the offer, but I won't be able to watch the dog". You don't owe her an explanation.


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S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
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Onward and forward

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Originally Posted by joejoe1
My response back would be, "Thanks for the offer, but I won't be able to watch the dog". You don't owe her an explanation.

That's exactly what I sent. No response.

JOURNAL:

Had an issue last week where I asked W to sign a waiver on my new house saying that she ins't a part of it (required by lender) and asking that we not file the divorce papers with the court until after I close (scares lender). She seemed a bit offguard and immediately put stipulations on it, saying that we would separate expenses and income beforehand, that I had to agree to sign on such and such a date, and a half dozen other things. This was a tough position for me - part of me knows that she will take any resistance to her asks as me trying to control her and that I should just acquiesce so that I can get my house with no issues. Another part of me feels very controlled, and the idea that she would hold my (and our daughter's) living arrangements hostage appalling. She said "hey, we both need things here, let's meet in the middle" but what she "needs" isn't a roof over her head. This was over email and validation was limited. I did refrain from addressing her judgments ("this doesn't seem like it's in D3's best interests") and instead focused on the facts. In my mind I have the nuclear option of saying "hey, if you won't let me move into a new place, then I won't sign the paperwork to sell the old place". Anyway, sent her the waiver for her to review, fingers crossed she signs it.

Weekend was kind of tough. Spent a lot of time out and about (GAL!) but it is still not fun coming home to an empty house. And have had a few conversations recently where people are talking about their POS exes... makes me think (know?) that I'm a POS ex. I wish I could say that I don't care but it hurts to be the bad guy, and I don't want to be one of those bitter "well, I only did X because YOU did Y" people. Not productive. But it's also sort of depressing to lose so much and have your name dragged through the mud for things you didn't do. I tried my best. Part of the paperwork from the mediator says something along the lines of "Both parties agree that there are irreconcilable differences and that the marriage cannot be saved". I want it struck. I'm ok to end it since I have no choice in the matter but I don't think that it's in anyone's best interests.

On a more positive note, I cooked something brand-new for myself yesterday... it wasn't the most efficient effort but it's a starting point.

Have to actually start planning my move, it's next week. It seemed so far away and now it's here. I'm kind of stressed, to be honest. W and I made a good team before, it was nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of, challenge me. Owning every single decision, while liberating, is stressful. No more dividing up duties. Was up for a few hours early this morning stressing about the choice of the house, if I bit off more than I can chew. It's not fun.


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Ok, question - how do I have positive interactions with W? We don't have many opportunities right now. Here are those I see:

1) Catch her eye at work - e.g. walking through hallway, see her in cafeteria. Currently I usually don't acknowledge if she's with someone, may give her a nod otherwise.
2) Mediation sessions - these are going to be done soon (none scheduled at this point)
3) D3 birthday party - my parents are hosting this weekend. Not sure how to interact with W.

Once the divorce is finalized we may not talk in person again for a long, long time. Most of D3 coordination is over text/email.

I've been doing everything I can to giver her space, don't even tag her in posts with D3 on social media let alone send long emails about how I'll be different, etc.. And when we are in the same room I don't really enjoy it (she brags, I try to not talk about all the fun stuff I do, she doesn't really ask me anyway). So, space is good, but I feel like I'm building a castle across the moat from her castle. Any suggestions for a) how to be around her and b) how to make time to interact?


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CC,

You are operating under what is known as “the illusion of action”. You feel you need to do something. The reality is you don’t need to do anything. Just don’t make it worse. With time and space her heat will soften and she’ll either miss you or she won’t. You really don’t have any control whether this will happen or not. Then after times goes by you will move on and realize life is to short to want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with you and will move on.

It’s all within the script we always talk about.

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LH, I hear you and I recognize that I can't make it better through my actions but I'm worried that I'm making it worse. She's essentially trying to be friends and I'm rebuffing that. I think that I'm doing the right thing but she has explicitly stated that she feels like I won't even talk to her (i.e. this isn't just me imagining her thinking).

But maybe you're more right than where I am... right now I feel like everything is fluid, total ambiguity. It's like "Inception". So maybe I'm trying to grab onto at least something I can affect (which, you are rightly pointing out, is not this).

Alright, but back to my questions, I'm pretty good at going cold and she's sensing it. I'm wondering how I can move it back a notch or if what I'm doing is right, the fear and uncertainty natural. I do recognize that I can't make her miss me but I can certainly do things to make her glad that I'm gone - I want to make sure that I'm avoiding these. Thoughts?


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C,

I may not quite understand the question but just be happy cordial and look your best whenever you are around her.

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Ok, real example from right now: I told W that I reviewed the mediation agreement and have some changes I'd like to see (nothing too crazy). She offered to either talk on the phone after D3 goes to bed or I can come by her place. What do I do? I "naturally" want to go over but the DBer in me is saying that this isn't conducive to detaching.


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C,

Either is fine. I think you are overthinking it. If reconciliation is going to happen it’s most likely going to be a minimum of 18 months down the road.

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Originally Posted by crdcheck
. What do I do


Email her:

Here are my proposed changes:

Paragraph 3 - Change line 3 from XYZ to ABC.
Paragraph 6 - Change this Amount to this amount.
.
.
..


Regards,

crdcheck


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Originally Posted by crdcheck
She offered to either talk on the phone after D3 goes to bed or I can come by her place. What do I do? I "naturally" want to go over but the DBer in me is saying that this isn't conducive to detaching.

crd - Why do you want to go over?

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I'd like some interaction outside of work and I feel like my opportunities to be AMOAFWL around her are very limited so I should take advantage of them. I'm worried that I've gone too far to the end of the DB spectrum and now she sees me as being cold and detached (vs. lovingly detaching).

I'm exhausted (woke up last night stressing about my new place... lost two hours of sleep) so I'm probably simultaneously overthinking and not thinking. I mean, I know that nothing is going to change the divorce at this point, I've got at least a year ahead of me. But we barely see each other as it is and, once the house is sold and the divorce finalized, we'll just see each other in passing, D3's big events (3-5x per year). Unless she has some terrible dating experiences she'll just reinforce the narrative that I'm the scum of the earth, no one could be worse than me.

I should probably follow the advice of going over email, skipping the call/visit. Which risk is greater: that she thinks I'm game to be friends or that she thinks I don't care about her at all?


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Neither matters one iota. That’s why do whatever you feel comfortable with at this point. You can show her with actions that aren’t game being friends.

You are correct in that she has to see the grass isn’t greener before she decides to come back. The question is will you want her back?

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Originally Posted by LH19

You are correct in that she has to see the grass isn’t greener before she decides to come back. The question is will you want her back?

I would want a different version of her. To be clear, I don't mean "NEW AND IMPROVED", I mean "Classic, The Original". This time apart has given me a great opportunity to really think about how she treated me and there were real issues. I was terrible to her, no question about it. I spoke to her inappropriately (not cursing, more like dismissive and denigrating... related to NGS) and I cheated. There is no excuse for either of those. And I was a bad communicator. So it's been easy for me to take the blame for all of this, promise I'll do more. But she was also terrible to me in different ways, maybe ways that she didn't realize were terrible but have played to my insecurities. I never felt like I was "first" with her and I can think of specific examples where I tried to be vulnerable and she cut me down. We got into a bad place but she only sees my flaws, not her own.

[more info below than needed]
The "relapse" I had last October, the girl involved saw me when I arrived at the party, ran up and hugged me, said it was great to see me. At the time I was working from home (had gotten off of the road after coming clean, when on the road I was with a social team, WFH was lonely) and every day when W came home I would be waiting, "Welcome home!!! How was your day?" and she just blew me off. Said she was tired and didn't want to talk about work (but would text colleagues all evening). So one bit of attention from some girl was an oasis in a desert. Doesn't justify it, I should not have put myself in the situation in the first place. But looking back I was desperate for attention, affection, and interest. I don't think that these are unreasonable expectations.

[Back to the basics]
It's stuff like that where, when you say "would I take her back?" no, not that person. That person made me feel alone and ashamed and didn't put any work into trying to save the MR. In Sandi's words, she "sat" rather than "stood" for the MR. At the same time, I would struggle to say "no" to getting back together if for no other reason than I think D3 deserves it. But I would need W to take point on the R, scheduling MC, listening to my needs. Otherwise... it's rinse and repeat.

[Back to tonight]
I only see downside to going over. If it goes poorly then I'm reinforcing the narrative. If it goes "well" then I'm in the friend zone. Like, what, she's going to see something in me as we are going through the divorce paperwork and say "hey, let's table this for a couple of months, maybe try to talk things out?" I certainly can't say that (pursuing).


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Hey mate,

I'd second the not going over or speaking on phone and just emailing her.

Have you tried any sleep ease type supplements? There are plenty out there from the chemist that target better sleeping. Guided meditation before bed helps too.

Good luck mate! Regds D


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I followed your advice and I'm glad I did. Not because anything happened but I realized as I typed up the comments that she is going to be annoyed with many of them and this is not really the right time to be validating, etc. I'm also not in the best mental condition for real-time disagreements but I didn't want to put it off because I need her to keep moving on something for me (house waiver) and I know that she'd interpret any delay as me trying to control her or whatever.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, we'll see how she responds.


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M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Some post-Separation observations:

1) I'm not as quick to anger anymore. I spilled glass of water last night in the same way I did maybe 6 months ago. Last time I got really angry at myself because I worried that it would damage the floor (and I think that I was upset that I looked stupid in front of W). Last night, no anger, just cleaned it up.
2) Sleep is key. I felt a million times better today after getting 8+ hours of sleep last night. Not sure if it should be considered a GAL or 180 but it's important
3) Relationship with D3 is much improved. It wasn't bad before, but she prefers W to me and, without W around, we get to spend more quality time together. I'm excited to plan new activities with her; it's much easier when I don't have to worry about keeping W happy ("what if she doesn't want to go, will she feel pressured? Will she not want D3 to do this? Did she have other plans in mind she hasn't shared?")
4) With the divorce paperwork going back and forth via email (thanks again for the great advice) I've become more succinct. While I make sure to clarify that I'm not passing any judgment, I'm also not holding back (much) from the facts. I have my needs, she has hers, it's up to her to manage hers, me to manage mine

So, good couple of days. I know that it's a roller coaster but it's good to recognize the positive (or less negative, as the case may be). Still is not great to see her at work, though. I don't get angry or sad, more just not sure how to interact. Walked past her as I left the office today, she had her back to me and was talking to her boss (who I've met). I nodded and smiled at him, he gave me sort of a strained half smile, and I walked right on. I'd be lying if I didn't strain to see her as she drove away (I didn't end up seeing her...) so I'm not fully detached or whatever. In a perfect world I wouldn't see her at all to be honest but we are where we are.


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Question regarding divorce papers. We are using a mediator and have come to agreement on everything (financial split, custody, division of property, etc.). It was a relatively amicable process. The mediator took all of our inputs and created the legal documents. As part of the "standard" language there are two items that basically say that both parties agree that the marriage is "irretrievably broken", "no reasonable likelihood that their marriage can be preserved", and that "this Agreement... is in the best interest of the minor child." I feel that the agreement is as good as can be and the least-worst option I have (R is not on the table and the only other option is litigation) but I don't agree with those statements.

I've asked W to work with the mediator to strike these as part of our other changes and the feedback thus far is that they are required in order to file. How far do I take this? I'm not going to refuse to sign because of this but I don't think that it's unreasonable to get another mediator to weigh in on it. W will certainly not appreciate the delay to the divorce and the additional cost.

Not sure if it matters but the reasons I feel so strongly about this are a) I'm trying to be more honest and this feels very far away from what I feel and b) I don't want D3 or anyone in the future changing the story to say that "both your mom and dad thought that this was the right choice, look at the paperwork". I'd rather tell the truth about my misdeeds than to say that I think that this is the right option.

What do you all think?


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C,

I understand your thoughts on this based on principle but I wonder if it’s worth the additional costs? I wouldn’t care jack $hit what your w thinks.

Your daughter will know when she’s old enough the reason for the D.

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I agree with LH here. I have been "advised" by friends not to file for D because "your kids will always know who filed and that matters."

Personally I think my kids will care more about how I am as a father, and I choose to focus on that. The rest will sort itself out.

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I hear you guys and I know that it's not like it's going to make or break my relationship with my daughter, but it matters to me and the cost is marginal (an hour or two with a mediator plus a week or two to get in). I mean, W has her own place now, I'm moving into my own in a couple weeks (our house sold, closes a week from today), and everything is going smoothly in terms of custody. Sure, I'd like to be completely done, too, but waiting a couple of weeks doesn't seem like a big deal to me. W has indicated that it's important to her but hasn't really shared why (her: "It's not like I'm going to get married right away!").

So, new challenge: my mortgage company wants my W to sign two documents, one saying that I have access to our joint account (duh - it's a joint account) and another saying that she is waiving her rights to my new house (rights and liabilities). These have no impact to her whatsoever - I'm using my money (which is presently comingled) to pay for my house. She's saying that she won't sign them until we have our next appointment with the mediator which is after our old house sells. I've asked her what her issues are and she doesn't have any for the waiver. For the other doc she didn't like the wording, said it sounded like all of the joint money would be mine. I called the mortgage company and they said that we can reword however we like as long as it doesn't mention the divorce and says that I have access to the funds. No response from W. I suspect that she's trying to use this as leverage against me for something unrelated (splitting accounts).

It's galling to me that she is using the roof over my daughter's head as leverage and I feel that I have no choice so I did politely but directly give her my nuclear Mexican Standoff option of saying that I would sign the paperwork for the sale of our "old" house after she signed the paperwork enabling me to buy the new one. I'm not sure what else to do since she's not explaining her issue with the paperwork and instead wants to make it contingent upon less-impactful items. It would be as if I said that I would not agree to the divorce (i.e. force litigation) if she doesn't help with the final cleanup of the old house. It would a reasonable ask of mine but not reasonable to threaten so much.

On a positive note, I don't feel anger or really even much stress about this; not even a "OMG what will W think if I pursue this? Will it reduce our odds of R?". I did call the mortgage company to figure out how we could adjust the wording to satisfy my W. So, I'll pat myself on the back for maintaining my detachment, doing what is right for me and my daughter, and not being aggressive about it.


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This has been a tough few days (if not longer... time is a mess right now). So, everything has been going pretty well, no issues with custody arrangement, my house purchase moving along. Had D3's birthday party on Saturday; my parents hosted. W and her parents were there. Her father not only barely acknowledged my existence but also tried to avoid my brother. I can't help but to roll my eyes - he was fine to have me take his grandkids all over town when they visited in July and the only thing that has changed since then is that W moved out. Petty and short-sighted. But I stayed positive, gave him the space he wanted. Did a small nice gesture for W.

So, the bad part. I need W to sign two documents for my home purchase that basically say that I can use funds from our joint account (they would just be "my" half of the funds) and that she has no other interest or liability in the home. Very standard stuff. She was being cagey about when she would sign and I checked with her daily to see if she had any questions, when she would get them to me. She finally says that she won't give them to me until after our old house closes and after our next mediator appointment, an appointment where she could come up with new parts of the agreement.

[side note: old house closes this week, I move my stuff into new house storage but don't close until next week].

I say that won't work because I would basically have no guaranteed roof over my or D3's head. W said that that isn't an issue, she'll definitely sign. But not now. So, it became clear that she plans to use it as leverage. To what end, I don't know. I told her that I couldn't put D3 at this kind of risk, that I wouldn't leave our current home without knowing we had a new one to go to. This went back and forth a bit yesterday via email and, finally, our realtor getting into the middle (putting two of his sales at risk piqued his interest). Somewhere in there W added to her requirements, saying that she would sign after I signed the custody agreement and a couple of other forms, plus the "old" house forms. I said that the houses are their own item and shouldn't have other stipulations tacked on. We had a call later last night and I floated the idea of an "escrow" for the forms - she signs my home forms, gives them to a third party who gives them to me after I've signed "our" home forms. She still refused, said that I'm "exhibiting all of the signs of someone who isn't going to go through the mediation process and drag this out". I asked her why I would do that, what my motive would be. No answer. But basically, she admitted to using my new home as leverage to get me to come to mediation and sign forms (both of which I already plan to do anyway but can't right now because we won't get them until next week).

[side note: I'm so happy for this forum because I know that this isn't the "real" her, it isn't logical or rational, and there's nothing I can do to convince her of my true intentions so I just moved on]

Anyway, call ended poorly with me saying that my offer stands - escrow on the home forms (mine and ours), other mediation items to be taken care of on their own (not tied to home sales). She kept trying to draw me back in and I just said that I had nothing more to add, she knows where I stand. Suffice to say, she wasn't happy.

This morning I have an email from her basically agreeing to my ask and making a few more demands about splitting funds, etc. At a glance it all sounds good. So, things seem to be working out. But wow, she's kind of gone off the deep end.

On another positive note, her written intransigence has showed other parties who were in the middle on this that, not only is she out of line with this divorce process, but they are starting to question everything she said about the marriage. I may come out of this with a few more friends than I had imagined. Plus, it's making it easier for me to detach. I mean, do I really want to be in a relationship with someone who would use the leverage of my daughter's home over me?

I'm not sure that I have any questions at this point but if anyone has any advice or suggestions I'm always interested.


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M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Can't believe it's been two weeks since I've posted and at the same time can't believe it's only been two weeks. It feels like months. To follow up on my last post, W ended up signing the papers. My sister in law intervened behind the scenes unbeknownst to me. So, old house sold, new house bought, I'm actually writing from there. Tonight is D4's second night here and she seems to like it. Park two blocks away with an ice cream shop next to it - we went to both tonight and she made a couple of friends on the playground.

For me, there's an amazing bar across the street and I've met neighbors there. My brother and a few other close friends have been huge helps - I'm not completely unpacked but every room D4 uses is complete including painting and pictures on the wall. I've been crazy busy with it all and also busy with work - it's an exciting time. GAL is continuing between all of that (volunteering, taking a new class, reached out about supporting another local organization), not to mention hanging out with friends. I'm actually pretty exhausted and looking forward to having more of this done.

W and I went through revisions with the mediator last week. We got some of the language regarding this being the "best situation for D4" softened which I was happy about. No real fights with W, a couple of disagreements over text but I've done pretty well.

Only "miss" i can think of was when she dropped by my desk to give me revised divorce paperwork and I was deep into my work - when i turned and saw her I momentarily mistook her for someone else I expected to come by and just sort of sat there with a confused look on my face. Not exactly the positive response/attitude I would have preferred to give.

So, things are going well, and I feel like I've "checked" so many of the boxes that I should feel better. But I don't. I mean, I really believe what I've read here (and elsewhere), that, bad as the things I did were, my W was unkind in different ways to me, too. No equivalency, of course. But point is that I logically know that I shouldn't want her back. But I find myself looking for her car when I'm walking through our company's garage. I wonder if I should invite her to a concert I know that she'd like (and I shoot that down, of course, but then I'm sad). We've not been under the same roof for over a month, not in the same bed for two months (longer?), been no more than friends since May, and I should be moved on. Especially since I've gotten past blaming myself for everything. But right now I'm sad and I don't really know why.


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CC,

Sounds like you have a nice setup where you live and are doing a nice job With GAL. As for feeling you should have moved on by now, if you had moved on then I would question whether your marriage meant anything to you. It's normal to feel sad because you lost something that has been a major part of you for 12 years. I have read that it takes 1 month for every year you were together to get over someone. It will most likely take a year for you.

Be proud of yourself! You are headed in the right direction and way ahead of the game for being 5 months post BD. There are guys here that have been here over a year and come here weekly to wallow in their misery and feel sorry for themselves.

Your number one challenge is going to be that you work together. Any possibility of you seeking work elsewhere?

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C, don't worry about the fact that you are still not at peace over your situation, that will come with time. You've got all the pieces in place to make that happen and you have done a FANTASTIC job of it! Now you just need a little patience with yourself. Allow yourself to grieve and feel hurt, that's normal! You'll work through it and find happiness again!


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Thanks to both of you for sharing. I'm not really used to issues I can't logic my way out of. Like, once I got onto the DB bandwagon, I could pretty much be all in (though, to Steve85's and others' points it took me a few weeks to really begin dropping the rope, seeing how far along my W was - funny to think that I used to worry about how whether or not I washed her coffee mug would have any impact on the eventual outcome).

LH19: not really. This is one of the top companies in the area and the pay is nearly impossible to match. Leaving would create a lot of ill will that could harm me in the long run (e.g. if I needed to return for some reason). Plus, there's no travel which is key for now (my last job was M-Th travel). Question: why do you think that this is a challenge?

At a more general level I will say that this group has been immensely helpful with seeing how... hate to use the word, but... "hopeless" the marriage as-is was when I first joined. I literally would have done anything to get her to call off the divorce. I literally did quit a job and choose a new one that was limiting in many ways but was to save our family. Stopped going out with friends. And it was my choice, I don't blame her (though I'm bitter that she claims that she did all she could, etc., and I see her as having put in 10x more effort to the divorce than saving). But that's me the problem-solver - whatever it takes to fix it, I will. But I can see that it never would have been enough because she never communicated her specific needs (they were always abstract) and never made it possible for me to communicate mine (and was unwilling to try a different counselor).

Five months in, here are some of my key learnings in addition to the DB principles:

1) Getting good sleep is one of the more important things (and maybe even a GAL or 180 depending on the situation). This process has involved more decisions than I have made in years - I don't know that much compares with this near-constant state of stress and intense thought. Without a doubt, a good night of sleep makes me function better the next day in ways that it didn't before.
2) Comedy has really helped, too. On days when I find myself lamenting my loss (and impending losses - like when D4 told me that mom is taking her to Disney, I thought about how we won't do that together) it really breaks the framework by popping over to The Onion for a few minutes (or whatever).

And on a positive note, while I worry about what kind of parent I am and how much damage I've caused my daughter, when I look into her eyes I see love and happiness. I know that I shouldn't be using external sources for validation but man, when everything feels like it's not enough, that gives me hope.


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Quick questions list:

1) Follow up from previous post, given that my job is great and I'd be burning a bunch of bridges if I left, why the suggestion that I change (W works there, too - is that insurmountable?)?
2) FIL's birthday is at the end of the month. I enjoy buying him gifts because we have similar tastes. I bought him a couple of books prior to the divorce announcement - do I give them to him or not? I could give them to my daughter to give to him but that's pretty transparent.

Journal:

Was feeling good over the weekend and during the day today - house is coming along slowly but surely (I have to remind myself that emptying even one box is still progress). Had a great time with D4 this weekend - she and I mutually chose activities that we both enjoyed. Did a house tour thing that had bands playing at each house. She chose when to stay, when to leave, etc. Then some arts and crafts with her. All in all a really good weekend. A bit awkward going to the bathroom when I'm not home - she's too young to leave alone. The things you don't think about...

Then this evening I had my state-required parenting class. I had low expectations since I've been in counseling, on this board, and read books. I didn't really learn anything but they played a video showing interviews with kids whose parents divorced and it really made me angry with W. This one girl said that her parents divorced when she was nine months old and she's still dealing with the fallout. I get it that we can both be great co-parents and give D4 the best life possible but, well... W attended this class after our first mediation session which was right after our final "discernment" session with a new counselor - I don't see how she walked out of it saying "yep, I'm 100% certain we can't work this out."

It was also a bit depressing to see that my excitement about being a great parent may just be a phase. Like, it's typical that we become super-parents for a bit and then it fades. I am really, really enjoying being a "free" parent, not having to worry about what W thinks. I'd hate for that to go away.

On a positive note (relatively speaking), hearing others talk about their soon-to-be exes made me thankful in many ways for my W. We have our issues (obviously) and I'm bitter about a lot, but there was no surprise forensic CPA combing through my stuff, no completely made up police report, no $200k in legal bills. Part of me is very happy that, despite what a POS I was to her, we still prioritize D4 and our respective futures. That also makes me sad that, if we are this (relatively) close together, why can't we pull just a little closer? These people are full of anger and hatred. One person basically threatened his W (she wasn't there - he was just remarking to the class). It is what it is, of course. I'm just thankful and sad at the same time.


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1. Not insurmountable just easier to detach and give her time and space to potentially miss you.
2. I would just give it to him. He is still your father-in-law.

I am also thankful for my ex. Remember that it could always be worse.

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Once a DBer always a Dber CC. Keep doing what works for you. Be there for your D. You both are making new memories. Enjoy that man!

Be strong there. Keep DB!

(((CC)))


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Question:

Background/Context: W is out of town on a work trip in a few weeks and, with our custody arrangement, I get first right of refusal. I accepted immediately - more time with D and, if I'm honest, I have felt that W and her family (probably others) don't think that I'm up to the task of parenting. At a minimum, they feel that W is a better parent. So, I have a chip on my shoulder about the whole thing - I feel a need to prove that I'm a great parent. If we were still together we'd either take D4 to stay with her parents for part of that time or they would come stay with us. That served both to help me out and give them/D4 time together.

Back to the specific week/question, when I told W that I would be happy to take D4 I meant it, and the opportunity to prove that I can do this on my own is great, but I am left wondering if a) I'm doing it for the right reasons (is part of it to show what all of them are losing?) and b) if it's in D4's best interests. She has a great relationship with my in-laws and I would NEVER keep her from them but it's up to W to make that happen. So, for now, I've landed on keeping D4 for the week. This is early days and I need to live up to the responsibilities I've sought and earned. But should I consider offering "my" time with D4 to them with them in the future?

One reminder on the above - my W has a negative impression of just about everything I do (well, at least she did - we haven't had a real conversation in weeks). Part of my fear of making this offer is that it will be interpreted as me asking for help or showing that I can't handle parenting. Is this fear justified (for now at least)?

Journal

In other news, man, this solo parenting thing is tough. Or, at least it is when I'm also trying to get my house in order (and deal with work, and GAL...). D4 is amazing, the most flexible child one could ask for. But remembering to pack her lunch for just one day, wear blue for team color day on Friday, pick up more ibuprofan, and so on... it's a lot. I still feel that the freedom outweighs the cost (at least, of the previous setup - W rarely let us have 1:1 time).

Part of the overall exhaustion is related to GALing. Going out with people, continuing with that new class, having people over, planning new activities for D4, and really leaning in at work (also a 180) adds up. So, it's fair to say that it's a net positive but it will be nice when things calm down a bit.


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Originally Posted by crdcheck
with our custody arrangement, I get first right of refusal. I accepted immediately - more time with D and, if I'm honest, I have felt that W and her family (probably others) don't think that I'm up to the task of parenting.
During this period, I suggest always taking the kids. The grandparents can visit with the Kids while the mother is parenting. You can revisit this in the future, like a year or two out.


Same for your parents, they can visit with the kids while you are parenting.


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Originally Posted by crdcheck
In other news, man, this solo parenting thing is tough. Or, at least it is when I'm also trying to get my house in order (and deal with work, and GAL...). D4 is amazing, the most flexible child one could ask for. But remembering to pack her lunch for just one day, wear blue for team color day on Friday, pick up more ibuprofan, and so on... it's a lot. I still feel that the freedom outweighs the cost (at least, of the previous setup - W rarely let us have 1:1 time).

Part of the overall exhaustion is related to GALing. Going out with people, continuing with that new class, having people over, planning new activities for D4, and really leaning in at work (also a 180) adds up. So, it's fair to say that it's a net positive but it will be nice when things calm down a bit.

crd - When I moved out 4 months ago and expressed my fears about being a single father of 3 small kids, people told me, "Those things are easy. You will figure it out." I thought, yeah, easy to say.

I have felt completely overwhelmed. I completely understand how you are feeling. I felt initially like I was back in my 20s living like a bachelor, not keeping a house in order to the same standards of my W.

Just last week I noticed a subtle shift. I feel more on top of things. I have a routine going. I'm going to organize their play area better. I am turning my house into a home. I feel motivated to be more organized, and not just staring at everything feeling stressed out. I cook. I'm pulling it together. I'm not an expert like my W, but I'm doing better every week and it feels great when thing start clicking.

You are going to get there, just as a year from now this will be second nature to me too.

One thing that has helped me a ton is using phone reminders and note lists. I have a grocery list, Target list, Xmas list, reminders for recurring things, etc. If I recognize I need ibuprofen, I just put it on my Target list and it's done. Maybe that would work for you, maybe something else. You will find your stride and hit on a system that works for you. It might take some time. Don't worry, you can definitely do this!

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Thanks to both for the advice.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
During this period, I suggest always taking the kids. The grandparents can visit with the Kids while the mother is parenting. You can revisit this in the future, like a year or two out.


Done. Retook some more of my autonomy - the upcoming weekend is W's and she is flying out Sun morning. She asked me if I could pick D4 up from her place at 11 AM (she did not volunteer to drop her off at my place). I have yoga at 11 AM (GAL) so I suggested she drop D4 near the studio at 12:30 PM. W said that her parents want to leave earlier, etc. etc. I didn't reply (not holding out, just not replying immediately) and she came back with the parents being willing to take D4 to me at 12:30 (side note: her parents are retired, nothing critical for them at home - in the past I would have deferred no questions asked).

New question: D4 mentioned that she told mom about something fun she does at my place and suggested that her mom come over so we can all three have fun. I told her something like "Hey, I'd love that, too, but this is our house and mom's house is yours and hers". She said that we could invite W over and that W said that it was up to me. Now, my daughter is 4 so who knows what was said, but there have been a couple of examples of her saying that W is essentially happy to do things the three of us and I don't think that it's right for her to put D4 or me in this position. Thoughts on if or how I should address?

Journal:

Past couple weeks have been tough as noted in previous posts. I still miss W. It's small more than big things. But it's also FOMO - D4 wanted to facetime her mom Sunday night and we agreed that we would make that happen. W told D4 that she went over to her boss's house on Saturday to make dinner for their entire department. Don't get me wrong, I was having fun, too - had bro and his kids over that day, spent a lot of time with D4. It just would have been better with W. I feel like she's chosen so much over me (work, time with her boss) and, well, D4... it's hard not to feel intensely rejected. I feel a need to be chosen. My work is going ok but I keep seeing people doing better and that adds to the feeling of rejection. My brother has been a huge help in all of this (then again, his wife still hangs with W... her choice, I respect it... just wish I had something to myself) but my parents have been non-existant. My mom texts me out of the blue today to ask me to tell her "when it's all over". Uh, ok?

So yeah, then I get to thinking about all the fun times I've had with W and I can't believe they're gone. I get it that there are others out there and that I have an opportunity to grow. But there are also a lot of crazies. And who does W end up with? Someone who is bad to D4? Someone who encourages W to spoil D4 and damage our relationship? What if she moves to her home city? There are just so many unknowns and I see us as so close on so many things. All I ever really wanted was to be recognized and loved.

Finally, W is being very clinical with the divorce process. Essentially saying what is happening step by step, borderline ordering me to sign at certain points. I can't believe how certain she is of this. I mean, I haven't tried to stop her since... July? And I mean, I stopped with pushing counseling, etc. in early June. She moved out in Aug. How is she going full-speed at this? If she called me now asking to pause, part of me would say to myself "hey, she can't just come back when she pleases, think through what you need" and another part would be "YES YES YES!!!!". Clearly she doesn't have the latter but not even the former? I don't get it. I want this to be done.


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CC,

I think you need to tell wife that doing things together as a family does not work for you and that you would appreciate it if she didn’t tell daughter it was ok with her.

Your second to last paragraph consists a lot of “catastrophic thinking” google it.

Lastly, trust me she’s not a 100% sure she just isn’t going to give you any indication that there are doubts. Most of the doubts become erased because she believes she can have you back at anytime.

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Originally Posted by LH19

I think you need to tell wife that doing things together as a family does not work for you and that you would appreciate it if she didn’t tell daughter it was ok with her.


Makes sense. Any thoughts on how to answer the inevitable "why"?

Originally Posted by LH19

Your second to last paragraph consists a lot of “catastrophic thinking” google it.

I know, you are right, but seeing all the other people going through divorce and hearing their horror stories... well, catastrophes happen. Having said that, I'm not letting it overtake me.
Originally Posted by LH19

Lastly, trust me she’s not a 100% sure she just isn’t going to give you any indication that there are doubts. Most of the doubts become erased because she believes she can have you back at anytime.

I'll have to take your word for it. She seems super confident. Also, don't only something like 10% of divorced couples remarry each other? Anecdotally those on this board say that they wouldn't get back with a cheater. In a way, it doesn't matter: what I'm doing, I'm doing for me and D4. This is me wrapping up my feelings of rejection (past and ongoing) into my sitch.

So, have faith in me, but also keep challenging me - I appreciate it even if I don't like it (ha).


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W this will be confusing to D thinking that we are an intact family when that is no longer the case. If pushed harder tell her that it effects your ability to heal and move on.

She has to seem super confident. What kind of feedback would she get if she told everyone I’m not totally sure but I’m pretty sure I want a D? Well as long as you’re mostly sure then I guess you should still go through with it or if you’re not 100% sure don’t go through with it.

My ex’s brother remarried his W, my BFs ex girlfriend remarried her husband and one of my friends parents reunited after 35 years. I have read it’s 10-17% remarried. You figure at least another 8% who are together that aren’t married and then at minimum 25% who tried to recon where the LBS told them to kick rocks. That gives you at minimum a 50% chance you get another shot. The timeframe is usually 2-5 years. Most won’t wait that long.

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Originally Posted by LH19
W this will be confusing to D thinking that we are an intact family when that is no longer the case. If pushed harder tell her that it effects your ability to heal and move on.

Good advice, LH - I'll keep in my back pocket.
Originally Posted by LH19
She has to seem super confident. What kind of feedback would she get if she told everyone I’m not totally sure but I’m pretty sure I want a D? Well as long as you’re mostly sure then I guess you should still go through with it or if you’re not 100% sure don’t go through with it.

It's more her actions, lack of calls/texts/etc. even re: D4.
Originally Posted by LH19

My ex’s brother remarried his W, my BFs ex girlfriend remarried her husband and one of my friends parents reunited after 35 years. I have read it’s 10-17% remarried. You figure at least another 8% who are together that aren’t married and then at minimum 25% who tried to recon where the LBS told them to kick rocks. That gives you at minimum a 50% chance you get another shot. The timeframe is usually 2-5 years. Most won’t wait that long.

Yeah, I probably won't. Or, at least, will need to define "wait" broadly. I'm not interested in getting remarried any time soon but I'm also not maintaining a holding pattern indefinitely. It's not good to have people in and out of D4's life so I'd like to settle down with someone longer-term sooner than later. It's not that I have a timeline as much as it is that, if something great comes along in a year (let's say) am I really going to ignore it or let it walk away while waiting for W to see the real me?

So, gave my FIL the gift, even though he is actively avoiding me (e.g. when I dropped D4 off at school where they were meeting her for grandparent’s day my MIL came to the car to get D4, FIL stayed by the school door). I included a note explaining the gift, made no comments about the divorce or anything else. He sent me a very nice text back. Thanks for the advice to give it to him, I feel that it was the right choice.

Journal/Other

I read a short article on the impact of Childhood Emotional Neglect (CEN) on adult relationships and it hit the nail on the head. There are a lot of areas that I’ve been proud of (e.g. my independence) that now actually appear to be liabilities. This isn’t about feeling sorry for myself, it’s more an area I can explore and improve, both for myself and D4 (it’s passed down from parents – I don’t want D4 to deal with the same stuff I’m dealing with).

On a semi-related note, I was talking to a guy at a bar (we met through our kids at the playground down the street) and ended up having a long conversation. His W cheated on him, they are divorcing but still living together (?!?) and he deeply loves her. We were talking about my sitch and he asked me if I love my W. It’s such a tough question to honestly answer – there’s no one (save for D4) I would do more for and I know that I haven’t felt like I do about W about anyone else but there are also feelings of exhaustion and, frankly, dislike for her at the moment. His view was that if I don’t know for certain, then I don’t. It’s a bar conversation so I don’t want to put too much weight on it, but I do sometimes wonder if this CEN thing (just read the definition today but felt some of it for a while) keeps me from having strong emotional connections or if I truly don’t love her, that my need to save this marriage is driven by something else.

GAL still going reasonably well, expanded it to include mundane things (e.g. build the shelves in the garage, pull weeds) along with maintaining other activities (yoga, weekly class, get together regularly with my brother). Not to mention planning activities for D4. Oh, I'm proud of myself - made pesto pasta with chicken for myself from scratch (including the pasta) last night!


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Having my lawyer review the mediation docs (settlement agreement) this week, looking to get notarized next, submitted to court week of the 4th. So, we're at the end. I don't see any way to change course at this point but any advice for what I should be doing the next couple of months? I'm doing the following:

-Minimizing contact w/ W (no random texts, invites to see a concert together)
-Always being positive (I need to work on this - I still have a bit of a clinical tone with her)
-GALs (weekly class I'm taking, reading regularly, doing yard work, cooking, volunteering, plus working out)
-Not reaching out to her parents
-Not playing D4 off of her in any way
-Expanding friend group (tough as I feel like I have no time)

Is it just "wait and see" then? Like, one day (X)W will (or won't) reach out to say "hey, we should talk"?


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CC,

You definitely don’t want to see concerts together but the rest of the points look really good.

Just start moving forward in your life and I would suggest waiting a year to date.

As for the phone call one day. Highly unlikely that it will be that straight forward and most likely at least 2 years away.

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Originally Posted by LH19
You definitely don’t want to see concerts together but the rest of the points look really good.

Yes, of course - I worded that poorly. I'm not sending her anything that's not tactical. Candidly, I really want to say "are you sure?" but know that's a terrible idea. Also, our 10-year anniversary is Nov 14... we may technically make that. Wish I could say something.
Originally Posted by LH19

Just start moving forward in your life and I would suggest waiting a year to date.

How do you define "date" in this context? I don't want anything serious but I want to be able to go out with other people. Can you clarify?
Originally Posted by LH19

As for the phone call one day. Highly unlikely that it will be that straight forward and most likely at least 2 years away.

Hopefully I recognize the outreach. I mean, I'm not giving much of an opening. For example, my parents are taking her (used to be our) dog for Thanksgiving (I have no idea how that happened, waiting for my parents to explain) and W asked me if I would take her for a day between when W takes D4 to her hometown and when my parents come to town. That doesn't feel like outreach to me but could it be? I know, I know - ridiculous. I just don't know what to keep my eyes open for.


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Originally Posted by crdcheck

How do you define "date" in this context? I don't want anything serious but I want to be able to go out with other people. Can you clarify?
"date" = "doing an activity with one woman" (With possible intentions of intimacy)

Your single time will most likely be brief. Enjoy it.


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I think you need to define what you mean by outreach.

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Originally Posted by LH19
I think you need to define what you mean by outreach.

How will I know if her communications/asks are a subtle way to get back into an R. I don't expect that she's going to say "Hey, I made a mistake, let's see a counselor" but I don't to read into anything else, including interpreted tone in texts/emails.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
"date" = "doing an activity with one woman" (With possible intentions of intimacy)

Your single time will most likely be brief. Enjoy it.

Yeah, it's going to be tough to go a year. I'm not looking to not be single but I don't want to not date, and I can't see a reason I would hold off for myself (i.e. I would be holding off for (X)W). I enjoy it and it doesn't feel like it's that difficult (am getting some subtle nudges from people already).


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CC,

You’ll know her intentions. I will be more then kid related stuff. Probably a trip down memory lane. Maybe innuendos.

Just being single things are going to happen if you have an active social life. I’m talking about getting into a serious relationship.

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Originally Posted by crdcheck
Candidly, I really want to say "are you sure?" but know that's a terrible idea.


Correct, she's still "sure". When she changes her mind she will make sure you know.

Quote
Also, our 10-year anniversary is Nov 14... we may technically make that. Wish I could say something.


Technically my XW and I made 20 and then 21 after BD, after S but before D. Looking back I see how completely meaningless those anniversaries were.

Quote
How do you define "date" in this context? I don't want anything serious but I want to be able to go out with other people. Can you clarify?


Man if I had a dollar for every LBS that just wants to go hang out with women and then in short order ends up in a new R that they aren't ready for! Just be careful, everyone's timeline is different but rarely has an LBS healed enough for a new R in less than a year post-BD.

Quote
Hopefully I recognize the outreach. I mean, I'm not giving much of an opening. For example, my parents are taking her (used to be our) dog for Thanksgiving (I have no idea how that happened, waiting for my parents to explain) and W asked me if I would take her for a day between when W takes D4 to her hometown and when my parents come to town. That doesn't feel like outreach to me but could it be?


If by "outreach" you mean her expressing interest in recon, then rest assured it's not going to be anything confusing or requiring interpretation. She will make it very clear to you. You don't have to leave her an opening, she will make one. The dogsitting thing is probably just what it appears- she's looking for a dogsitter, free if possible.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Man if I had a dollar for every LBS that just wants to go hang out with women and then in short order ends up in a new R that they aren't ready for! Just be careful, everyone's timeline is different but rarely has an LBS healed enough for a new R in less than a year post-BD.

Ha! Yeah, definite risk to keep in mind. I just know myself - if opportunities come up I'll take advantage. Intimacy with W was terrible, I've spent years on lockdown... not going to lay low unless I see a huge risk with it. I don't want a real R for a while (don't want to be the cliche who says "never" but I don't really want to repeat this).
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

If by "outreach" you mean her expressing interest in recon, then rest assured it's not going to be anything confusing or requiring interpretation. She will make it very clear to you. You don't have to leave her an opening, she will make one. The dogsitting thing is probably just what it appears- she's looking for a dogsitter, free if possible.

Thanks, very helpful. Part of my detachment has been to avoid imagining what she's thinking which means I'm trying not to read into anything. Knowing that it will be obvious if she wants to recon is immensely helpful.


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So, big non-D development last today - I told my parents that I am cutting them off. The straw that broke the camel's back is that my W asked them to watch her (used to be our) dog over Thanksgiving and they said yes without telling me. I've asked them to not interact with W and to let me manage the relationship. They've also never gotten along - W hates my mom, thinks that she raised me poorly and, to a significant extent, believes that many of my issues are due to poor parenting. So, I'm not asking them to stop being friends, I'm asking them not to do anything they weren't already doing.

I'll also add that my parents have done no favors for me since W moved out, they haven't visited my home since W moved out, I've offered time with D4 to them (they are always asking but it has to be on their terms), so the idea that they are going out of their way to help W while doing nothing for me is... well, I'd say "enraging" but it's par for the course. So not even "disappointing" anymore. I'm just tired of it. When I called them to understand their logic they essentially blamed me for not telling them that we aren't sharing the dog and that they are just trying to have good relationships. No understanding, no validation, no apology.

I look at my issues (some narcissism, depression, childhood emotional neglect, others) and, while I don't sit around feeling sorry for myself, I'm angry with them for the damage they've done and their complete lack of acknowledgment, let alone atonement. Even as an adult I've always "owed" them for anything they've done, they've never had my back, and it's always about them. When W complained about them during our MR I blew it off - every family has issues. Mine is just different, not better or worse. And even if they were bad, so what? I can't go back in time. But now that they are causing more stress than they are taking away and interfering in my relationship, a relationship that I believe they helped to worsen, that's it - I'm done.

So, I sent an email that said that I was essentially "separating" from them, don't want any more discussions (too many already, boundaries ignored, etc.). My dad responded that they would still see D4 and that we would work together on logistics. Uh...? No, you're out. Feel free to ask W to give up her time, or go to court and I, my brother, and your entire family can go on the record about what terrible parents you were. Also, that's your first thought? I mean, I asked you to give me space and, not only do you ignore that, you are talking about your time with my daughter? Selfish and tone-deaf.

FWIW, it's not like my parents were physically abusive or anything like that, and they were generous in many ways. But emotionally it is neglect, and I've come to believe that my mother is a bona fide narcissist. Again, this doesn't excuse any of my behavior or poor choices but, as I look to my future, I don't see a place for people who don't have my back, who I can't trust, and who won't do what's in my best interests. So, they're out for now.

it's funny, as I sent it I thought that it felt like I was divorcing them - I wish that they would pick up Divorce Busting or something and seek to change themselves. I would love to have a relationship with them. But I can't do it with them being like they are.


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Non-update update.

Still tracking to divorce, barely talking to W. Not avoiding, we just aren't talking. I've tried to be more positive around her - we mostly chat over text or email, I try to imagine her as a someone checking me out at the grocery store and be outgoing. But then she brags about whatever and it really gets on my nerves. I brag back. Part of me knows I shouldn't but another part of me thinks that "hey, this is me, too." I don't know.

This weekend has been tough. Very long work week so it was nice to be able to relax. Though, by "relax" I mean working out, yoga, putting together furniture, laundry, errands, meeting various contractors who are building out the apartment in my first floor. So, Sunday night and I'm still exhausted. I keep a Spotify playlist of all of the songs from concerts I'm going to soon and was listening throughout the weekend. Many make me think of W. I'm not going to but I want to reach out to her. It's the usual feeling - I know that I did wrong to her, that I don't want our old relationship back even if she offered it, but man, we were a great team in so many ways... it's crazy to let it go. I'm going to stay strong and hold the course. Still, really wish I could tell her that I miss her.


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Interesting couple of days, no fireworks, but interesting.

First, something I'm proud of - W used to do all of the cooking in our house (she's a great cook), I did all of the cleaning. I can barely get past eggs. Well, I looked up a recipe for bolognese and made it yesterday. One of those long-simmer recipes. I doubled the size so I'd have plenty of leftovers. Mistake was that I started at 8 PM and was cooking until midnight, ha. Also made pesto for my dinner last night (so two dishes in one night!). But the moment of pride came tonight when I offered to let D4 try it. She's in that phase where she doesn't want to try anything and even pepperoni pizza is too much for her. She loved it! I don't think that I'm getting a Michelin star for my work but she says what she thinks. Between that and the French toast (which she wants this weekend) I'm feeling more confident in my cooking skills.

So, my attorney reviewed the mediation agreement and found a few small issues but nothing having to do with the content - it's fair. So, we're good to sign soon. W wanted to do it like tomorrow and I pushed back because there are a few things that remain open that, well, I won't let stop the mediation process, but I want to discuss before signing. Her brother has a possession of mine that she's refusing to bring back to me (brother lives 3+ hours away). And there are a couple of financial things. I'm dreading this conversation - it's going to play into her narrative that I don't care about what she thinks, only care about myself, etc. Almost certainly some NGS with me (I would have similar issues with someone other than W) but worse because I'm questioning myself (again) as to whether I should ignore these to keep the peace (or avoid conflict). She pushed me to discuss over text and I said that I wanted to do it in person. She then scheduled time at work tomorrow - I decline the invite and told her that I didn't want to discuss at work (not sure what she was thinking), suggested that we grab a coffee Friday afternoon before I pick up D4 from school. We'll see how that goes.


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Hi Crd, some nice updates to read here.

I get what you mean about not deliberately avoiding the S, and just not talking instead. It's hard to know whether you should reach out or not. I've been thinking it's best not to, unless you have kids and then keep everything about logistics and nothing more.

I think if she does brag to you, I agree you shouldn't react. Don't point-score as she'll probably pick up on that and its ammo against you for when she sees her friends.

I agree about being a great team. It is so easy to think about all the wonderful times and think, "Why is this all being given up at the drop of a hat?"

Regarding the finances, be polite and firm but not aggressive. If she kicks off, validate how she feels to a degree but don't cave and state calmly that getting the possession back is important to you. Remember - NMMNG!

Well done on the cooking. When I met my W I could only do scrambled eggs or beans on toast! Now I can do lots of dishes - fish dishes, home-made burgers/meatballs, squid, scallops, risotto , make my own pesto, make my own sauces from scratch, etc. Went on a Spanish cookery course with work colleagues a few months ago and really enjoyed it; I'd recommend it as a GAL activity. Go with a few friends. I have a new found love for garlic and ginger lol!


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Hey, was reading some old threads, this one in particular, and got to thinking about my sitch:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653328#Post2653328

I suspect an EA at this point but we've been separated physically since Aug, BD in May, so kind of a grey area and I'm not judging. Point is, I think that W is WAW, not WW - should I be altering any of my DB approaches?

It probably doesn't matter, especially at this point, but I can't help but to think that I'm "setting up a chair outside of a tunnel without cheese" if I keep doing the same thing. Don't get me wrong, the "same thing" in this case is yielding positive individual results but am I doing anything that is compromising the possibility of recon?

As a refresh, W has said that I'm a narcissist, that I always get my way, don't care about others. I understand her perspective and am addressing her concerns in general (not directly since we aren't really talking - working on my validation) but it's still skewed, she's rewriting history. So, my detaching, not reaching out, standing up for myself, etc., I don't think shows as a "different" (better!) me. What do you all think?


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I disagree. It shows you love yourself and value yourself enough to walk away from a person who doesn’t see your value. You are nobody’s plan B. You’re operating under the illusion of action and fell you need to do something to change your situation around. In that case crush your life and live it to the fullest.

Time and space gives her a chance to miss you and realize that your not the reason she is unhappy.

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Originally Posted by LH19
I disagree. It shows you love yourself and value yourself enough to walk away from a person who doesn’t see your value. You are nobody’s plan B. You’re operating under the illusion of action and fell you need to do something to change your situation around. In that case crush your life and live it to the fullest.

Time and space gives her a chance to miss you and realize that your not the reason she is unhappy.


Thanks, that's what I thought but want to challenge myself, especially when I'm feeling comfortable with an approach (am I falling into an old pattern or is the new one taking hold?)

Of course, maybe I was the reason she was unhappy - I can say that I'm a lot happier with her not around. I miss her regularly but owning just about every part of my life has been really freeing. No more hoping that my sacrifices are recognized/reciprocated, it's all me.


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So, had the scariest conversation today I've had... in as long as I can remember. Met W at a cafe to talk about a couple of things that I wanted her perspective on before signing the papers. One is that her brother has a firearm of mine that she wanted out of our house when D4 was born and he said he would sell. He never did. He lives 3+ hours away and I'd like her to either get it back to me somehow or sell it.

The other was that she decided to separate finances before the divorce - it will shock everyone to know that it was right before our bonuses came out and hers was certainly more than mine. I agreed to separate expenses but not income. Yes, the money matters, but the principle matters more. She wanted everything to be 50/50 even though I put more equity into everything, she wanted my car that I owned pre-marriage to be considered an asset, and so on, so I feel that this is consistent. Of course, I knew that she was going to see it differently.

I walked in confident, asked her how things were going. Was positive. Started with the firearm topic since it was more straight-forward. She tried to put it back on me to take care of it and I said that I was happy to provide options but it's really up to her. She said that it probably wouldn't be in my possession before the papers had to be signed (apparently, since she filed in early Oct we have until the end of the month to notarize the agreement). I told her that was fine.

Next topic.

My heart was POUNDING. I knew that she wasn't going to agree outright and, even though I prepared myself for what to say when she told me that I was "taking HER bonus" I was terrified. Like, more than during reviews at work, more than when I'm speaking in front of dozens of people. Even now I don't know if I should have said anything - am I a just chasing dollars? Or is that the nice guy in me looking for ways to avoid conflict?

So, I asked her how she wanted to manage the remaining house sale proceeds and D4 expenses, and then the income true-up. She was confused about the last, thought that we had separated finances when the house sold (I was careful when we'd discussed this as I figured that she was trying to get me to agree... side note: my old company paid out a bonus after she BD'd me and she was more than happy to consider that marital income). It went better than I thought - I told her that I could see why she would see it that way and am open to her perspective, if she wants some time to think it through that's fine. She agreed to that, didn't seem angry, more flustered. I think that she was scared about the whole conversation - I'd refused to discuss over text (tone, misunderstanding, etc.) despite her demanding that I prep her so she may have anticipated worse. She certainly wasn't expecting it.

She told me about something my parents reached out to her about, asked me how she should respond, and I told her that it's not a "big decision" and that she's welcome to handle as she sees fit. I asked if there was anything else, she said "no", then I told her to have a great weekend, grabbed my coat, and left to pick up D4 from her school.

Look, this is kind of a non-story, I get it. But you all have no idea how much this scares me even though I know that it can't have much of an impact on our relationship. That's what's off of my shoulders in general now and, once the papers are signed, will be completely off of my shoulders. I still want to "bust" this divorce but I know that, if we are to reconcile, I need us to work together to be able to have tough conversations. To her credit, she didn't react nearly as badly as I thought. At least, not as far as I know - who knows what she's doing right now.


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crd -

I think you handled this well.

You aren't going to bust your D by being nice and caving in. You also showed her some compassion and gave her time to think through your proposal.

My W is also trying to negotiate agreements before we start mediation, trying to understand what position I will take, etc. And I am taking the same position as you... I don't want to communicate about these matters over text. You did right to stand up for yourself and handle the conflict head-on.

Also, you didn't get sucked into defending your position (which then would give your W opportunities to attack your shining).

Anyways, I don't see this as a non-story, but maybe that's because I identify with your personality and know how hard this stuff can be for some of us. Tough conversations are not easy to have.

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Originally Posted by unchien
crd -

I think you handled this well.

You aren't going to bust your D by being nice and caving in. You also showed her some compassion and gave her time to think through your proposal.

My W is also trying to negotiate agreements before we start mediation, trying to understand what position I will take, etc. And I am taking the same position as you... I don't want to communicate about these matters over text. You did right to stand up for yourself and handle the conflict head-on.

Also, you didn't get sucked into defending your position (which then would give your W opportunities to attack your shining).

Anyways, I don't see this as a non-story, but maybe that's because I identify with your personality and know how hard this stuff can be for some of us. Tough conversations are not easy to have.

Thanks, Unchien, that means a lot. And it is turning into a story, ha (ha?)

W emailed me on Sat to say that she was going to have her parents give me money for the firearm (why not her, I don't know - maybe to make me feel guilty? Doesn't matter), agreed on final expense true-up (remaining proceeds from house sale), and then told me that we weren't doing income true-up, that finances were all settled when the house sold. I genuinely see her point/perspective, and she probably could have filed a separation order that would have formalized this which, depending on how I responded, would have led to a fight then or me caving. Regardless, she didn't, and apparently her attorney is telling her that separation can be basically whenever she wants (e.g. when she BD'd me, when she moved out, etc.). It makes no sense, of course - a deadbeat WAS can't just BD and take his/her income. But in W's mind this makes sense.

So, few emails back and forth, fully-respectful, W not budging, me saying that I'm open to compromise, etc. Last one was her saying that she'll "move forward in another direction" if this is a sticking point for me (I'm assuming that she means that she'll litigate). I sent a note back saying that I'm open to compromise, that litigation leaves both of us (and D4) worse off, and that her proposed approach doesn't feel fair or equitable, but said that the choice was ultimately hers. I also offered to have us visit the mediator to help explain the legal standpoint on this (given that it sounds like we are both getting different legal advice).

We'll see how this goes. I don't want to litigate, I do want this to be over (i.e. I'm looking forward to signing papers), I don't want to cave in. I'll have to see which of those I can succeed in. I mean, I don't want to risk the first two for the third. Wish me luck (and, as always, share advice)!


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Quick update - she's saying that if we open up income, then we should open up more of the finance piece, that she gave in on a lot to get this done quickly, etc. Again, respectful, no name-calling, no anger - very clinical. I replied that I was happy to have a conversation. She's now saying that there's nothing to discuss, either I sign the papers or she'll go another direction. Ack!


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crd -

The legal date of separation can be a contentious point as it can determine how property is treated in certain states. Also check if bonus income is treated the same as salary (when it comes to support payments, etc.)

Is the bonus issue the *only* open item you have that hinges on the DoS? Perhaps one thing you can do is come to an agreement on the DoS.

One thing to consider is whether litigation would end up costing more than the additional money you would receive back anyhow. Did you document anything when you made the informal agreement?

In any case, I'm not a lawyer, so none of this is legal advice. Make sure you protect yourself. I also suggest you let go of what is "fair" or "equitable" and stick to what is "legally accepted." Your idea of "fair" will be different from hers so that argument won't help in any way. It certainly sounds like she's not going to budge.

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So, my attorney (who was reviewing the mediated agreement) said that this is pretty black and white - we aren't legally separated so all income is joint. But our mediation agreement is equitable (rather than equal). There are areas where she gave, areas where I gave.

Look, I'm angry that she is trying to pull this. I've made more then her, every year, consistently for 10 years, and she pushed me to keep going further - she was happy that I wasn't home if it brought in money. Within 30 days of my taking a haircut role that got me off the road, focused on our marriage, my family, she BDs me. And now wants to throw down over what is, in the long run, a small some of money? Part of me is angry. Well, a lot of me is angry. I get why she wants out, and I made a lot of mistakes. But this entitlement thing on her end... it's hypocritical and gross, especially when she's accused me anyone who wants alimony/support of being gross (I didn't ask for it, she put that out there nearly first-thing). She's a money-grubbing scum bag who just happens to have a nice background at the end of the day (sorry, venting here... just frustrated)

Having said that, the money involved won't matter in the long run, is [FAR] less than the cost of litigation. There is no logical reason to throw in the towel on the mediation for this. I'm fine to give up. But that seems like old me. The guy who says to himself "I don't want to rock the boat, she'll think I just care about money, it's her bonus after all" (while she's fine to ignore that I put a majority of the equity into all of our possessions, that she has more clothes/shoes/cars/etc. than me). I also just want out. I've slept great every night for weeks, until last night, after I got her note that said that she wasn't playing ball. I want to sign the papers and move on with my life.

I'll also add that, I would still like to get back together. No, not as we are, but as we could be. I don't want to sabotage that over a relatively small sum of money.

I guess my question to the group is, is what makes financial and personal-stress sense as or more important than what makes "dropping the rope" sense? To further clarify, if this was a business deal, I'd walk on principle ("drop the rope"). But do I want to lock into months (or longer) of battles where we both (plus D4) end up worse-off and our respective sins out to the world (D4)? It feels like an easy answer to me but I'm biased - I always want(ed) the easy way out. Help!

Also, W posted pics/video of D4 and what used to be our dog playing in the snow. Snow days from early 2019 were one of the two best memories I have of the past year and I really want to say that to her. It's a genuine feeling, no game about it. Tell me it's a bad idea...


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Originally Posted by crdcheck
So, my attorney (who was reviewing the mediated agreement) said that this is pretty black and white - we aren't legally separated so all income is joint. But our mediation agreement is equitable (rather than equal). There are areas where she gave, areas where I gave.

From what I know, there is no mediation agreement which can leave you feeling like it was fair or equal. But plenty of agreements that are acceptable.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Look, I'm angry that she is trying to pull this. I've made more then her, every year, consistently for 10 years, and she pushed me to keep going further - she was happy that I wasn't home if it brought in money. Within 30 days of my taking a haircut role that got me off the road, focused on our marriage, my family, she BDs me. And now wants to throw down over what is, in the long run, a small some of money? Part of me is angry. Well, a lot of me is angry. I get why she wants out, and I made a lot of mistakes. But this entitlement thing on her end... it's hypocritical and gross, especially when she's accused me anyone who wants alimony/support of being gross (I didn't ask for it, she put that out there nearly first-thing). She's a money-grubbing scum bag who just happens to have a nice background at the end of the day (sorry, venting here... just frustrated)

OK, good that you vented here. Keep it here. Anger won't get you anywhere.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Having said that, the money involved won't matter in the long run, is [FAR] less than the cost of litigation. There is no logical reason to throw in the towel on the mediation for this. I'm fine to give up. But that seems like old me. The guy who says to himself "I don't want to rock the boat, she'll think I just care about money, it's her bonus after all" (while she's fine to ignore that I put a majority of the equity into all of our possessions, that she has more clothes/shoes/cars/etc. than me). I also just want out. I've slept great every night for weeks, until last night, after I got her note that said that she wasn't playing ball. I want to sign the papers and move on with my life.

I'll also add that, I would still like to get back together. No, not as we are, but as we could be. I don't want to sabotage that over a relatively small sum of money.

I guess my question to the group is, is what makes financial and personal-stress sense as or more important than what makes "dropping the rope" sense? To further clarify, if this was a business deal, I'd walk on principle ("drop the rope"). But do I want to lock into months (or longer) of battles where we both (plus D4) end up worse-off and our respective sins out to the world (D4)? It feels like an easy answer to me but I'm biased - I always want(ed) the easy way out. Help!

First of all, take all your hopes of reconciliation out of this particular decision. She got a bonus. You feel entitled to part of it. Your attorney agrees. But it would cost you more in litigation fees than the bonus amount in question. Yes, it [censored]. Your attorney may be able to help you strategize what to do next if there are options outside of litigation (but keep in mind that there is a profit motive there).

If you decide it isn't worth it, that doesn't mean you are caving in to NGS. You are making a conscious decision what's best for you.

There is a common misconception that the way around NGS is to start standing up for yourself all the time. It is not correct to frame every life decision this way. It's always good to question WHY you are making a particular decision, to make sure it is not NGS. You've already addressed it by asserting yourself and asking for what you wanted. Whether or not you got it, you stood up for yourself.

And quite frankly, I can say with 99.999% certainty that whatever you do in this particular situation will have no bearing on your R hopes.

Originally Posted by crdcheck
Also, W posted pics/video of D4 and what used to be our dog playing in the snow. Snow days from early 2019 were one of the two best memories I have of the past year and I really want to say that to her. It's a genuine feeling, no game about it. Tell me it's a bad idea...

It's a bad idea. You are angry with her, you want to reminisce, you want to reconcile... focus on your detachment and emotional balance so you can make decisions from a place of calmness.

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Ok, need some real advice - how do I back down? Just sign the papers? She's basically threatening that, if I don't sign by Fri, she has an appointment Monday to "go another direction." I don't know what she's thinking - maybe she thinks that she can get a better deal by litigating, maybe she's angry and trying to hurt me, maybe she thinks that I'm never going to sign, or who knows? She has a history of following through with crazy threats (e.g. calling the police and telling them I had a gun because I refused to leave the MBR) so I don't doubt her.

Here are the choices as I see them:

1) Refuse to sign unless she compromises
2) Refuse to sign unless she at least has a conversation
3) Sign, say nothing
4) Sign, tell her that I feel bullied and threatened, that I am only doing this under duress and for D4's sake

Thoughts?


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Well, I got her to have a phone conversation tonight. I get the feeling that she's had it. She continues to have this conception of me as completely against her, only sees the negative, so she sees me as trying to drag this out indefinitely. Never mind that I have no reason for doing so, that the mediator's schedule drove most of the delays, that she chose the mediator, that her lawyer takes a week to do what mine can do in two days, and so on - because I questioned some language, requiring another visit to the mediator, I'm the bad guy. Same stuff, different day.

Here's the improvement - knowing that she's not able to be objective helped me to stay the course. I won't say that I followed the principles perfectly. The non-stop validation makes her mad - she wants a response, she wants my view, and she wants me to agree with her. But there were no raised voices, no anger, no name-calling. Did we make progress? I don't know. She did say that she has an appointment on Monday to begin litigation and confirmed that the door to the mediation agreement would be closed at that point. She said that she's done negotiating (she even used the term "boundary" - I think that her lovely IC is continuing to coach her). I said that going that path will cost us more and take longer. That's when she said that she thought that I would never sign, etc.

She seems to genuinely believe that she gave in on too much with the mediation agreement in the interests of getting it done quickly (which it wasn't). I get it. She also mentioned that some items she didn't even bring up (i.e. she gave in without letting me know that she was giving in). I told her that I understood perfectly because I had similar examples. So, I get where she is coming from even though I don't really agree. She knows everything she gave up but can't imagine what I gave up. She also started this process from the perspective that everything she wanted she deserved, so the reality of the middle ground being the starting point was a shock.

So, where did we land? Both are "thinking about it". She's leaving the papers she signed and notarized on my desk tomorrow. I'll probably sign and hold onto them. I don't see a scenario where holding the line gets me/D4 ahead.

Oh, one other thing - she has owed me money (no dispute about that) for a month and I asked her to give me a check tomorrow. No reason not to, there's no debate about it. She said that she'd think about it. It's amazing how her brain can manage this - I'm the mean unfair one who is extorting her but she holds onto this for weeks.

Strange thing, we stopped talking about the divorce stuff and went to talking about D4's clothes, some other expenses, couple of work things. Everything fine. In 35 minutes discussed litigation, how actions amounted to "slaps in the face", and then switched to easy conversation (though focused on D4, wasn't small talk).

All in all I want to be done.


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Originally Posted by crdcheck
Well, I got her to have a phone conversation tonight. I get the feeling that she's had it. She continues to have this conception of me as completely against her, only sees the negative, so she sees me as trying to drag this out indefinitely.


Yes but it's not your fault! WAS's, they need a scapegoat and there is no one easier/ more convenient than their spouse. You are the reason for every inconvenience in her life great and small. You're why she needs a divorce, you're why it keeps getting held up, you're why she's not living the life she really wants, you're why she got beat up by Big Bertha in the 3rd grade. You you you! Don't sweat it, they all do the blamestorming. Just keep your composure and always take the moral high road.

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So, where did we land? Both are "thinking about it". She's leaving the papers she signed and notarized on my desk tomorrow. I'll probably sign and hold onto them. I don't see a scenario where holding the line gets me/D4 ahead.


No one gets "made whole" in divorce. Both parties are going to lose things and probably walk away with the sense that they got the poorer end of the deal. So you've got to find a balance you're good with. I ended up eating thousands extra in the 11th hour just to avoid litigation, do I regret it? Absolutely not, the thought of fighting it out in court triggered anxiety all over again and my health was worth more than what I gave up.

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Strange thing, we stopped talking about the divorce stuff and went to talking about D4's clothes, some other expenses, couple of work things. Everything fine. In 35 minutes discussed litigation, how actions amounted to "slaps in the face", and then switched to easy conversation (though focused on D4, wasn't small talk).


That's pretty wild. It's good that you kept it from escalating though.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Yes but it's not your fault! WAS's, they need a scapegoat and there is no one easier/ more convenient than their spouse. You are the reason for every inconvenience in her life great and small. You're why she needs a divorce, you're why it keeps getting held up, you're why she's not living the life she really wants, you're why she got beat up by Big Bertha in the 3rd grade. You you you! Don't sweat it, they all do the blamestorming. Just keep your composure and always take the moral high road.


When I read this, I thought you were talking about my W (!!!).
Last week she was blaming me for delaying the process, and I had no idea what she was talking about!

She also blames me for her bad relationship with my mother, when I would always take her side and actually had several fights with my family, and even neglected them and their advise!

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

No one gets "made whole" in divorce. Both parties are going to lose things and probably walk away with the sense that they got the poorer end of the deal. So you've got to find a balance you're good with. I ended up eating thousands extra in the 11th hour just to avoid litigation, do I regret it? Absolutely not, the thought of fighting it out in court triggered anxiety all over again and my health was worth more than what I gave up.

Thanks, this makes me feel much better. Like I've said, I naturally want to give in so I'm combating that, but don't want to swing too far. Getting these signed, moving on, etc. - this money isn't worth stalling (or, worse, going to litigation). Appreciate the perspective and confirmation!


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
W moved out Aug 13
House sold Sept 25
Papers signed Nov 15
Divorce finalized Dec 12
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Well, I just signed the papers, so this is done as soon as W officially files them (yes, judge has to sign off, but can't imagine any issues there). Guessing today or Monday - when I let her know that I signed them and that she could grab from my desk she was down within 20 minutes (I'm not sure as I was away from my desk for a few).

I don't really feel anything at this point. Not to say that I'm completely detached or anything, and this week has been a bit of a whirlwind but I haven't really had any moments where I've missed her. Instead it's been frustration/anger w/ W over her threatening me and holding things hostage, excitement at being flirted with while at a concert.

Question: what does everyone do re: social media? Neither of us post much but there has been more of D4 lately. Candidly, part of it for me is to show others that I'm a great dad and her what she's missing out on. Not good reasons, I know, but I also know that it helps to memorialize her childhood so some posting is reasonable. But once D is finalized, do I unfriend W all over the place or still give her a view in?

I have to add to my second paragraph - as I read the papers, and as I was typing this out, I'm a bit sad again. Our 10-year anniversary was yesterday (no comments from either of us) and, well, we had a lot of great times. I know that I have a good future ahead of me but I can't help to think that it would be a better one with us as a family. But her choice, I will move forward as an individual.


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M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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But once D is finalized, do I unfriend W all over the place or still give her a view in?


I think this is a very individual decision and also depends on whether you are able to co-parent with her or have to end up parallel parenting. I can only tell you that my XW blocked me from Facebook and I likewise blocked her. I made the decision not out of revenge but because it helped me to detach. The ultimate deciding factor was D13 said she did not want her mother to have access to what we were doing. So my Facebook page is about my adventures with D13 and I make sure to delete any comments or material that talk about divorce or my previous relationship. My Facebook page is a public journal for my family and friends only, my XW is not part of my family and definitely not a friend. Maybe things will change in the future.


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Last edited by job; 11/18/19 12:00 AM. Reason: added link to new thread

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