Forgive me if I ramble. I am out of my mind right now.
Me Married 4 times 1st WW, 3 yrs, 2nd WH 5 Yrs 1 child now 30, 3rd WH then WW 14 yrs, two step kids now 35 and 34.
Learned a lot. I was totally wrong and repentant. Did all of my work and became a completely reformed scumbag.
Now... Married 12yrs. I would NEVER cheat on my wife. I traveled around the country A LOT. Never was even tempted. How many times can you betray and be betrayed before you figure it out?
Never thought this would happen in a gazillion years.
We met at work training when we were both married to other people. Talked. No hanky panky/crazy talk AT ALL. Both totally committed to fidelity.
Her marriage had issues. Mine was stable for 3-4 years after my affairs, then BOOM! (Again....) We became great friends. Lived far from each other across multiple states. Talked often, then not so much.
Both were already divorced when we were forced to be in the same place for work for an extended period. Feelings developed then.
We had sex when we first got together then decided not to anymore until marriage. 15 months no sex. She wanted kids, me not and she agreed. Led to some issues but were resolved after she decided it was “OK” but went off the pill without telling me. Sex went down the tubes. I didn’t want kids.
After a while we discovered she couldn’t have kids. (She would’ve been preggers already) We were used to not having sex then so still not having much.
About 6 years ago I agreed to adopt. She was ecstatic. Me too!
We get the foster to adopt thing going. Get our daughter. She is AWESOME! Best thing ever! We adopted her last DEC. I so regret not doing this sooner. Got our son 1.5ish years ago right out of the hospital. He’s awesome too! I can say with no reservations that it would be worse for our son to go ‘back” into the foster system than be raised in divorced sitch. Even though I know I’ll have to pay if I can’t get this to work. He deserves the chance.
Classic story. We were totally happy. Had great sex but not very often. Once or twice every couple months. She never complained or brought it up. I was tired from work all the time so no biggie right!!!??? For years she complains about me not helping her around the house and I’m communicating my displeasure at her delivery pointing that out. She feels I’m taking her for granted. Then no more nagging. SWEET! Right???
Now, WW!???!!! With 1 adopted DD 30 mos old, 1 Foster DS 17 Mos about to adopt 1st week of Sept. Yeah... In two weeks. What the H is she thinking!!!??? At work no less. With someone I know!!!
In May she changed overnight. She sat down on our chair and told me she wasn’t happy in our marriage, she didn’t want to have sex anymore. She has endo so I asked even if it wasn’t for that? And she said yes. This was about a week before she had to go away for three weeks. (Not around OM though as far as I know.)
Up until that point she totally withdrew hated smart phones but was now constantly on hers. I mean constantly. Would periodically accuse me of cheating, look at my phone, make the absolute WILDEST accusations. Despite the fact she had every password, location services, access to EVERYTHING! I was totally perplexed but paying attention. (See above for reformed scumbag.) I always told her what you don't know, WILL hurt you. But, she would never do this right? I didn’t think so. She knew my most valued marital value was trust because I had broken it and had it broken soooo many times before us.
I told her that when she accused me it broke down trusting feelings I had toward our relationship. But, she persisted in doing it.
About two weeks prior to BD, she talked to her sister but said we were having problems because I was taking her for granted. Then during a family camping trip two weeks ago ish she gave me the ILYBINILWY thing and tried to tell me it was all my fault. What???!!! I thought this stuff was 50-50??? I’m a laid-back dude but this was a lot so I told her this was a 50-50 thing. She wanted me to tell her about the things she was doing wrong in a very defensive tone.
I was scared. So far, she had started doing her hair differently, groomed differently, new nails, late home from work every day, accusations, ILYBINILWY, cell phone use. The flags were flying!
One day I surprised her with her cell and she put it down and moved so I couldn’t see it. I confronted her about it and she said she was turning off her music so we could talk. I really didn’t want to know so I didn’t look at it. (I was a coward.) Once you accuse, you cant take it back. I kicked myself for days about it. Then a few days later, I surprised her again while she was looking for a baby monitor to give my sister. (I wasn’t trying to sneak up on her.) When I came in, she put her phone down very quickly in the closet. I puttered around the room for a minute and then went in the closet and got her phone. I thought she was going to push me down trying to get it. I weigh 240 she’s 125.
There it was, the “I love yous”, the “What are we going to do about our, kids, spouses, lives.” Etc. I’m devastated. I’m old! I don’t have that much time left to be wasting it on the BS I had to do before. I have two little kids. YES! The ones she’s always wanted. HER WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE!!!
I know from past experience I need to do things to make sure I don’t come out of this a broken person. I went on the internet and found this site. I’ve been reading for about a week and have started the 180s. She’s pissed! She says I’m ignoring her. (I’m not) just withdrawn and cordial. No change whatsoever when the kids are around. I’m running, growing a very distinguished beard, I may shave it though. It makes me look older.
I’m not sure what I’m doing really. Cleaning out closets, cars, garage. I need my head back. She gets pissed about everything. I asked her to move down the hall, she followed me into the room yesterday to clean out her closet. (While I was doing mine)
She acts as though everything is ok and expects me to be ok with her being “in love” with someone else. Says it’s her fault but always adds “but” you put me in this position. I take full responsibility for my part of the breakdown of our relationship. NONE of her decision to take her body and feelings elsewhere.
I screwed up and told her I wouldn’t file D or help her in anyway except working out details of property, visitation and child support. I’m going to retract that.
Initially she stayed in the MBR but she didn't do anything about him and is just eating the biggest cake in the bakery!
I'm not into cake...
I laid down some boundaries.
She has to tell him its over. She told me she couldn't help her feelings. Nope. Not buying it. It's total crapola.
Seeing him alone is unacceptable. (They work together in a basement.)
He has to move out of the basement back upstairs.
She can’t yell at me. Ever.
I’m struggling with the decision to call the OMS and tell the sister and BIL.
Yesterday was our 12th anniversary. It sucked…
Right now, I can barely hold it together when I hug or even think about my kids. She betrayed them too and they are innocent.
The latest thing today is that I took my leftover BBQ to work. She hasn’t said a positive thing about any of it ever. Now, she’s pissed I took it to work. What???
The 180s are HARD. I feel they will push her away. I’m going to do them though. The alternative is unacceptable. I just don’t know about my future. I don’t have that much time to be unhappy… But my kids…
I'll need help with this. I've been reading and there are some really smart, kind and empathetic people here.
I’m going to close now. Ill be back….
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Wow, ske0187, that's a ridiculously bad situation. While I've never cheated, I relate to "She knew my most valued marital value was trust because I had broken it and had it broken soooo many times before us. " I think it's normal for us to value most that which was lacking in past relationships.
Originally Posted by "ske0187"
I’m old! I don’t have that much time left to be wasting it on the BS I had to do before.
Given where this partnership is--she's betrayed you (your highest value), the sex is non-existent now but even before was poor (monthly), and her complaining about housework for years fell on deaf ears--I do wonder what redeeming value is here that would drive you to spend a year+ salvaging this.
180s and GAL for you is fortunately on the right path either way!
I’m old! I don’t have that much time left to be wasting it on the BS I had to do before.
Your the same age I was when I showed up here 10 years ago. Of course I thought the same thing that I was OLD. I named myself Old Pilot, well 10 years later and I am not any younger..... LOL!!!
Classic story. We were totally happy. Had great sex but not very often. Once or twice every couple months. She never complained or brought it up. I was tired from work all the time so no biggie right!!!??? For years she complains about me not helping her around the house and I’m communicating my displeasure at her delivery pointing that out. She feels I’m taking her for granted. Then no more nagging. SWEET! Right???
A lot of marriages fall apart because one of the partners (sometimes both) is harboring resentment and not telling the other about it. So usually when it finally blows up, the unknowing party feels blind-sided. But in fact it's been building up for a long time. I'm sure you saw in DR that the "no more nagging" thing is actually a huge red flag that the bomb is about to drop.
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Up until that point she totally withdrew hated smart phones but was now constantly on hers. I mean constantly. Would periodically accuse me of cheating, look at my phone, make the absolute WILDEST accusations.
All very typical and part of it. My XW used to quite literally fall asleep with hers in her hand whereas before BD she didn't even know where she had left it most of the time. Here we are years later and when I am around her, sometimes for hours, I never see her look at it.
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I’m a laid-back dude but this was a lot so I told her this was a 50-50 thing.
Don't say that to her. You need to own your part, let her sort through what she needs to own. At first she'll say it's all your fault but eventually she'll realize she has her own issues to deal with.
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I’ve been reading for about a week and have started the 180s. She’s pissed! She says I’m ignoring her. (I’m not) just withdrawn and cordial. No change whatsoever when the kids are around.
She doesn't want you to change or fix your issues. She wants to blame you, period. So when you start listening and validating, giving her time and space, being a better dad, working on you, it will make her VERY angry. She'll shout "too little too late!!!" and "why couldn't you change before when there was still a chance????" Just listen and validate and keep up with your changes. EVENTUALLY it'll have a positive impact on her, but not initially. This is the long game.
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I screwed up and told her I wouldn’t file D or help her in anyway except working out details of property, visitation and child support. I’m going to retract that.
NO DON'T RETRACT IT!! That was absolutely the right thing to say! Your attitude should be "I don't want this but I understand you do and I will respect your wishes and not stand in your way. But I will not do the work for you, because it's not what I want."
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I laid down some boundaries.
She has to tell him its over.
Boundaries are meaningless without ramifications. What are the ramifications if she does not comply with this boundary?
I'm going to expose to the OMW. But I didn't threaten it. I won't be telling her stuff ahead of time. I've already told her all of the things I need her to do. She's not beyond blaming me for everything.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Last night the W gets home. She's on the silent treatment. "If you can only talk to me about the kids and finances then we don't need to talk about anything." I said, "OK".
I was supposed to have a medical test today and needed a driver. She was supposed to take me and I had no alternative but to ask her. So I texted her about it yesterday. So after we "Don't have anything to talk about" she goes off on me about, "It's OK to talk to me if YOU need something!" I asked her to be civil when she talked to me. She says, "I am!"
Yeah. Whatever...The next thing she says is forced civil.
We were supposed to take the car into the shop today on the way to the Dr appt.. She asked me how long it was going to be there because she has a Dr. appt Friday. I was concerned about her health so I asked why. She said Botox. (She's been doing it for a few years.) I asked how how much it costs. With major attitude, she asks why. I said, "because I'm not going to pay for your cosmetic procedure so you can look good because I don't benefit from it." Let me tell you, that was HARD. I so wanted to say because I'm not paying for you to look good for your boyfriend!!! But I didn't. That was a small victory.
Anyway... She went off! Well then I'm not paying for you to bring BBQ to to work because it doesn't benefit me!
Good lord. If she only heard herself. I'd really like to video the stupidity that has been coming out of her mouth for the last few months. She'd be so embarrassed whenever she actually gets her mind back...
So, she steers the conversation towards separation of finances. OK. No problem. She starts saying she doesn't know how we got into this situation. Throughout this period I'm sitting up facing her and validating as required. But when she says that, apparently, I sighed deeply and looked away. Totally the wrong thing but it was involuntary. She then goes toward blaming me for the sitch again. "This is the reason we're here, you don't listen and tune me out." Like she never cheated or tried to convince me her changing was due to her ILYBINILWY was due to that and not her E/PA. SMDH...
She wants things to be normal with me like nothing ever happened. Figuratively speaking, I'd like to shake her until her head gets right!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Have you seen War of the Roses? You think this is all her. She thinks it's all you. The truth is between those two extremes. I see two bickering people who are equally contributing to the mess. You can't count on her to change so you need to be the one. Rise up, be the lighthouse.
She was supposed to take me and I had no alternative but to ask her.
AnotherStander, great movie reference!! Uber? Lyft? If you enforce those boundaries (e.g., "She HAS to tell him it's over."), you may be finding independent alternatives all the time, so it's wise to begin thinking about how that'll work and getting more independent. She told you she didn't want to talk to you--it's almost like ignoring her wishes and pushing her to talk and do a favor didn't help.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
"If you can only talk to me about the kids and finances then we don't need to talk about anything.".. she goes off on me about, "It's OK to talk to me if YOU need something!"
"I get we weren't talking, so you're frustrated I texted to remind you about driving me today. You feel like you don't get to talk, but I get to talk, which isn't equal." It sounds like she's open to discussing some issues.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
I asked how how much it costs. With major attitude, she asks why. I said, "because I'm not going to pay for your cosmetic procedure so you can look good because I don't benefit from it." So, she steers the conversation towards separation of finances.
I get where you're coming from. "Before, the Botox was for ME and now it's for HIM." If she got Botox for years even before the affair, maybe she does the treatments for HER to feel good about herself.
Consider given you're married, in most jurisdictions, the money belongs to both of you. "I'M not going to pay.." By TAKING CONTROL of the shared money and STOPPING her from using it in customary ways, you're (a) mashing her "controlling" button and (b) steering towards a separation of finances discussion. Once she gets her half of any home(s), money, car(s), income(s)--she's back in control of whether or not to do Botox.
Beyond that, how would you even enforce this boundary? In my jurisdiction, if she disobeys you and gets Botox on a credit card, even a new credit card, since you're married you wouldn't have any recourse.
We're all a ball of emotions after BD. Try to slow down dramatic actions.
We're all a ball of emotions after BD. Try to slow down dramatic actions.[/quote]
This whole 180 thing is like playing minesweeper when 95% of the squares have mines under them!
"If she got Botox for years even before the affair, maybe she does the treatments for HER to feel good about herself."
She beat me over the head with that one and I had to agree with her and tell her so.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Received the DB Book yesterday from Amazon. Reading in my room being paranoid that she'll discover I'm hiding something. (I've never hidden anything but presents from her.) It's not because she'll be mad I'm hiding something, I'm trying to do the DB stuff and don't want her to see the book as recommended. I just mention it because it just seems to be just another weird thing that's going on around here lately.
One more thing I forgot to mention in my opening dialogue. We work for the same national organization. I'm now a senior manager and before that, I was in our training division for around six years so I know just about everyone. She's been here for around 20 years and knows everyone as well.
She's in the A with the coworker/peer so if I expose at work it's definitely going to blow back on me too. Unfortunately, think exposure may be the best chance I have of "forcing" her hand a bit to end the A. There's really no danger of anyone losing their job. I'd like an opinion on this and the next too.
Get ready to flame...I know there's really none of that here but...
I have a dilemma. My wife is probably going to have surgery to resect part of her intestine due to endometriosis. So...Do I just take care of the kids or do some additional level of support for her? Must I still stay completely held back and detached?
Side note.
Normally, I'm a model H and very attentive to her during her medical issues. Seriously. (She's had many serious issues over the years.) Ironically, in her rewrite of history spew, she says I was never there for her. (12 Major surgeries since we've been married.) Total crock O bullhockey.
Not providing some level of care for this type of issue strains my feeling of moral responsibility. Even if it is to care for this alien person's needs during this event, not providing support feels really wrong and ice cold. I know this is supposed to be "no more Mr. nice guy" but this seems extreme. I feel it would actually push us apart and turn family away. I just don't think "games" (no matter how serious) should be played during times like this.
I know if it wasn't so serious I'd really have no dilemma. It'd be something like, "HE can go visit you." or something even more stupid.
Thanks.
Anybody?
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Yes I think offer support and be there for her but not too much 'in that way'. As LH19 says above, don't overthink any interaction as it'll drive you crazy.
Me - 36, W - 32 No kids T - 8 yr, M - 3 yr Discovery - 14 May 2019 S - 25 May 2019 & D bomb - 29 July 2019 D & House sale final - Feb 2020
Be nice to her, but do not react to her response...good or bad.
My wife tried to start a couple fights over the weekend, but I declined to engage. I walked away. She then acted a bit like she did pre-ILYBNILWY...but I did not get my hopes up and she acted like a deranged, angry lady yesterday. I generally ignored her...which helped me to remain happy.
Your wife is thoroughly messed up inside. She’s riding the most vicious emotional roller coaster imaginable and has no clue what is true and what is a lie. Let her face it...picking/taking a fight just gives her an external target to distract herself. Early in the Civil War, Secretary of State William Seward wanted to declare war on Britain in the hopes that it would unite the North and South against a common external enemy...Lincoln famously responded with “One war at a time”...try to let your wife fight the war against herself without your intervention. She’s in a personal civil war.
Last edited by Max2k10; 08/21/1902:26 PM.
Me: 36 W:38 M13 S10 D8 ILYBNILY: Feb 2019(?) Sep in House: Mar 2019 EA1 started 2017, discovered 6/19
Received the DB Book yesterday from Amazon. Reading in my room being paranoid that she'll discover I'm hiding something. (I've never hidden anything but presents from her.)
Maybe get some innocuous book that is similar size and wrap the cover around it so you didn't have to worry about her seeing you read it. I only read mine when she wasn't around and hid it when she was.
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She's in the A with the coworker/peer so if I expose at work it's definitely going to blow back on me too. Unfortunately, think exposure may be the best chance I have of "forcing" her hand a bit to end the A.
I know there are some sites out there that recommend blowing the A up, but here we do not recommend it. The A is a symptom of your bad marriage, not the cause of it. The marriage went bad FIRST, THEN She had an A. So you've got to fix the cause, not the symptom. Now if she doesn't know that you know about the A and you want to confront her, then that's a different scenario. But when you do confront her, expect her to lie about it or go even deeper undercover with her activities. Because of this we typically say just to state something like "I know you are having an affair and I want you to know I consider it very disrespectful." Then if she asks for proof or denies it, don't get drawn in. Just say "you and I both know the truth" and walk away. But no, do not blow it up at work because even if that ends the affair she's not going to come back to you. She'll seek out another OM (and another and another). And she will likely resent you even more for exposing it.
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I have a dilemma. My wife is probably going to have surgery to resect part of her intestine due to endometriosis. So...Do I just take care of the kids or do some additional level of support for her? Must I still stay completely held back and detached?
Support her as much as she WANTS to be supported, which may be not at all. As shocking as that may sound, she may not want any help from you. After BD I snooped and saw a message from my XW to her BFF that said her WORST NIGHTMARE was thinking about getting sick and having me care for her. WOW! She wanted NOTHING from me after BD. So don't just assume she wants help, ask her how she would like you to help her. My XW ended up having a breast cancer scare after BD. She had to go through some treatments. I asked her if there was anything I could do for her and she said no. And that was that. Ironically she asks me for more help now then she did back then. Anyway, ask her, and then honor her wishes even if it's leaving her alone.
AnotherStander makes a very good point about the downside to confrontation: it will cause her to become more careful.
I confronted my wife in early June. Big mistake. She is just as bad about her emotional affairs, but is even more careful to hide them. She seems to be experimenting with using her computer to call EA1 so that there isn’t a phone record. Pretty sure she coordinates with EA2 mostly via FB messenger. EA3 I don’t know...they both have iPhones and iMessages don’t show up on phone logs (they are data sent via Apple not txts via Verizon).
My wife simply resented me all the more and further justified herself as a result. I came across as insecure and needy to her...even though her initial response was positive.
Affairs are a symptom of a bad marriage...not the cause.
Me: 36 W:38 M13 S10 D8 ILYBNILY: Feb 2019(?) Sep in House: Mar 2019 EA1 started 2017, discovered 6/19
Sorry to do this. I was reading a thread today that was all quotes reposted by one person.. I thought it was in newcomers, the second thread from the bottom. It had around 7 links to these quotes pages. I normally wouldn’t be so vague but it was such an awesome thread that I’m sure someone knows where it is. Thanks!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I get a text from the babysitter about something (The W is on the string), the lady behind the window was off getting a copy of something so I answered the text. About 30 sec later I get a call from the W. I can't answer because the lady is coming back so I hit the "go to VM" button. She calls my work phone immediately. This is basically code for this is important. The SSA lady is basically done so I send to VM, knowing I'll be calling back in like, two minutes.
I call back ask what's up and she starts in on me about why I couldn't answer but I could text? I thought about it and decided it would be worth answering because she needed to get past this so I could get the info she wanted to give me that was worth calling my work phone for. I said I was getting the SSN and couldn't answer. W "But you could answer the text?" I said yes. She basically blabs about me not telling the truth blah blah blah again. I said, it's unfortunate you can't believe me when I tell you the truth. She then tells me "Well, I wanted to tell you the permission for the adoption for our S came through." Then we get cut off. She's never hung up on me before so I didn't think that was it. That's big news so I called back.
That was a mistake....
She starts saying how she understands that part of this situation is her fault but I need to know that I'm part of the reason we are where we are. I validated that yes, I realize that I have a part in the erosion of our marriage but I accept no responsibility for her poor decision making that led us the this crisis. She asked who did I admit that to? I said, you...and that I'm sorry that maybe she is recalling our conversation differently. She spouts off about how perfect I think I am blah blah blah. I said thank you. Then, "I don't want to continue this conversation when you are in the mindset you're in and I'll talk to you later." The last thing I heard while hanging up was her raising her voice to "My mindset!!!!"
I'm soooo mad right now that she ruined that news. We've been fighting for this adoption for almost a year and a half. This was supposed to be happy news. I guess I'm going to take it as still happy news so she can't control my feelings.
I sure wanted to share that news with my wife instead of this alien....
I'm starting IC tonight and need her to be home. I hope she shows up so I can go.
She was so civil this morning...
I asked her if she would be home tonight by 430 to watch the kids because I had to go out. She said where? I said Dr's appt. She asked if I was Ok. I said yes, I'm going to go see a therapist, that I have some things I need to take care of that I'm going to need some help with.
I figured I would share that info so she could see that 1. I was taking care of things for myself and that 2. Her infidelity had consequences that went beyond what is between her ears. I know that's really not going to get through to her right now but It's the only way to let her know how much this has affected me without telling her how devastated I am or appearing to pursue.
To be honest with everyone here, with the way my head is now and that I'm new at this, I'm not sure if I'm justifying or being reasonable. I 'm trying to detach and do 180s while still balancing boundaries, validating and being cordial.
Last edited by Ske0187; 08/22/1903:20 PM.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
When I told her I was going to therapy, she walked around the corner, came back and said "I hope what I did isn't why you're going to therapy." then she continued upstairs.
It took a second to respond because I was trying not to fall off of my chair laughing.
After this short pause I just said, 'Thank you."
She's really disconnected from reality...
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Wait, you are still considering going through with an adoption???? NO ABSOLUTELY NOT. This is NOT a mess you want to bring a child into. FIRST resolve ALL your issues and reconcile if it's in the cards, THEN reconsider adoption. The timing for that is all wrong.
EDIT- and if you and/ or your W have any thoughts that maybe adopting a child will somehow resolve your problems and bring you closer, no it will not so put that out of your minds. It will only make your existing problems worse.
You need to listen to AS , you need to get that clear between the two of you .
Next , your phone/text/AP conversation was atrocious. O wonder she is mad with you . I’m an easy going guy and what you said and did would have made me angry . I assume you have the DR book . You need to start again with a beginners mind .
The therapy isn’t from what she has done to you , it’s how you have let it affect YOU . All those thank you s sound sound passive aggressive and facetious. You have to stop otherwise you are validating her decision.
I know it’s not easy , but you are going to have to learn anew . Use your mind and not feelings
Adoption first. We are not adopting to help our situation or anything like that. We started that about 5-6 years ago and are finally about to finish our planned second and last adoption. I know you don't agree. Many may not. We've had our son since he was five days old. He's now almost 18 mos old. He's our son. He's not going anywhere. There's no violence in the home, no addiction, no arguing in front of the kids etc. He will end up in an amicable visitation at least and with both of us if there is an R. The is no way he's going into the foster system. He would be better off even if the relationship between us was strained forever. If you knew the foster system (you may) you'd probably agree in spite of what this looks like. I fully understand the possible legal and personal ramifications of this decision.
As far as the call goes...
I have the book. I'm not all the way through it. I've been reading here and I feel nothing but being a beginner. A bad one apparently. I thought I did halfway decent. Hmmmmm. I must be missing something. Back to the validation page. I started IC yesterday and told the therapist that I'm the person who controls my feelings. I fully beleive that and agree. Although I'm super angry, I'm not letting that come our in mannerisms that I know of. I've not said anything in anger or an angry tone. Just basically stoic. Maybe too direct. I'll read more and start again.
IC went well. She's not a marriage counselor but I think I need more general work on myself than that. So I'm good with what her plans are to help with the shortcomings my W identified that she needed from me before we got here.
Initially, before I decided not to expose, I told the W that I wanted to tell her sister so I could have someone to talk to about this. I didn't.
I got home yesterday and My W had come home early. She left right after to go talk to her sister.
After the W came home, (she was still pissed) I called her sis and asked if she was OK and if she had told her anything she didn't know already. She said that the W had told her that there was "someone else". We kept the conversation going and as we were talking, I let out some other details that I was sure had to have been mentioned. Basically saying that having an EA/PA was a decision etc. and I had no responsibility for her decision to do those things. Like "falling in love", having sex etc. Honestly. I figured if she was going to make her sister drive an hour and a half to talk, she would've told her that stuff. This brought on silence and I knew this was the first she had heard that. I asked if the W had informed her of that. She said no.
Well, her sister is a saint and is very understanding, nurturing, pro marriage and has been married for 25 years. (A good one). I don't think the screw up is too bad. I told her her sis had been taken over by an alien and not to judge her, just provide support.
I have let this play out, keep 180ing and work on my skills.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Adoption first. We are not adopting to help our situation or anything like that. We started that about 5-6 years ago and are finally about to finish our planned second and last adoption. I know you don't agree. Many may not. We've had our son since he was five days old. He's now almost 18 mos old. He's our son. He's not going anywhere.
I don't know all the ins and outs of adoption, are you saying that you are trying to adopt the son you already have custody of? I thought you meant you were initiating adoption of a new child. By all means if he's already in your custody and you are trying to adopt him then proceed, that's a different situation than I thought. Sorry for the mix-up.
That's Correct. We've already had him for close to 18 months and have had custody of him since he was five days old. He bonded with us DD 2.5 also adopted, W and I as an infant. He's her little brother from other bio parents. That's why he's not going anywhere.
Now, he's an 18 month old wrecking ball.
BTW. I would've said the same thing.
With the adoption coming up and all of the family coming from everywhere, it's an emotion factory around here right now.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Good Morning. CW I’m going running right after I post this. I’m going to cook breakfast for my rats. The W will eat too probably. I’m taking the kids to a music festival shortly after that. I invited the W. She said she would go then said she wouldn’t because after that she asked me what I was doing tonight. I told her I was going back to watch my friend’s band. She then said forget it, she wasn’t going. I said ok. She then said, have fun getting laid. I wish... I didn’t say anything after that. There’ll be no getting laid for sometime yet one way or the other. My brain can’t handle it. It wouldn’t help my sitch at all. On a side note... I was looking at the law here and adultery is a felony. WOW! It can be charged by the spouse. Not doing it but that’s freakin mid evil...
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I'm trying to detach, do 180s and validate her feelings during conversations etc. all while feeling like she's on another planet in her mind.
Yesterday, she wanted to "talk to me". Without getting into details of every subject. I'll just say up front that I did not argue or disagree with anything. I met her eyes and listened to everything she said. I tried to validate. (I'm practicing that but I thought I did well.)
I mostly practiced doing nothing so I couldn't screw up. I listened to her whole thing and then I would paraphrase what she said. I really wanted to listen close for a few reasons;
1. I need to do that. It's one of the things she said I never did. 180. 2. I need to evaluate where her head was in relation to our potential R. No expectations. 3. If she was going to accept responsibility for her A or continue to blame me.
She started by saying she didn't want to talk about this all day. I said, "Ok, 30 minute limit."
Some of the conversation was very productive. Kids, finances, house responsibilities.
However, the conversation turned quickly to being all about her. I actually expected this.
I have a questions on what I should do about one part specifically.
She said she was going to counseling to work on her and in the future would want to go with me.
I told her that I thought it was a good that she was doing that for herself but I needed to think about going to MC together because I needed to continue to work on myself and I'll get back to her in a couple days. (I'm going out of town today)
However, right now, my main objection to MC with her is that during the " talk" she said that she had already apologized for her A, she felt bad about it, she didn't want to talk about it anymore and didn't want to be in a relationship where we had to check each other's cell phones all the time. Each other's??? What did I do???
Also, because I spent too much time on my phone, she said she's had suspicions of me having an A long before we started having these problems. (Total guilt transference and rewriting history.) Granted, my cell time is part of our marital issues but I'm super transparent and faithful. One of my 180s is GAL because I don't have one. Having time for an A for me is a joke. I'd get caught in a second.
She also said that she knows I don't like being alone so it would be OK if I dated someone, just don't bring the kids around them. This seems to me to be whitewashing her own guilt and maybe acknowledging or knowing somewhere inside that our main crisis is her affair. She wouldn't ever admit that out loud. Right now anyway. She always defaults to my issues causing our problem and truly acts like the A isn't the problem.
Red flags all...
Going to MC when she is till seeing her AP is a no go. I don't see the point.
Question:
Do I come back to her with; "I'm not going to MC as long as the A is still going on." Then give her the requirements (again) of; end the A, NC (Even though he works there), STD test, transparency on phone/location/money etc. or just say "Not right now on the MC, I'm working on myself."?
Any and all comments on this would be greatly appreciated.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Still detaching. Trying not to react to her BS snide/vicious/unrealistic/passive aggressive comments. It really is counterintuitive to not try to correct her BS. That is a 180 though.
I have IC tonight. Should be a good session.
We're relatively cordial to each other except when I do me. (GAL) She gets PISSED. It's really hard to not react emotionally. (Internally) I haven't reacted so that's good.
I don't want her to get pissed because it still makes me feel bad. That makes it hard to GAL and not say much. I've got a lot of work to do on detachment. Sometimes I'm so "I don't care." and then something happens and I'm a ball of stress.
Last night I wanted to go upstairs to my room so I say, Hey I'm going to take the dogs out. (We have nine) Which dogs do you want? She gets pissed.
W You're going up to bed?!?! H Yeah. W Why are you going so early? You always go at 8. Why are you changing all of a sudden. You don't want to be in the same room as me? Is it so bad?
I so want to say YES!!!! I don't want to be in the same room! Same house! Same life! I'm sooo pissed at you for all of the things you did!!!! YOU KILLED ME AND THE KIDS!!! But I don't... I say, "No, I see how it might look like that to you and see that you're upset about it but it really isn't like that. I'm just tired. I hope you sleep well.
So far she has tried to control everything I've given her forewarning about.
How do I do me when I have to know she's going to be there for the kids? I'd like to just go do something when I get off work but I don't know if she'll be home in time for the babysitter to leave. Maybe I'll have to have a discussion about a pseudo visitation/custody schedule even though we live in the same house still.
I say I need to go to Costco when I get off work. I get why/what for etc. When I say anything like "I don't know." or whatever. She gets pissed and starts talking about my past transgressions. (In her mind) about me only thinking about me and what I want to do. I know I'm not supposed to say anything but crap, how am I supposed to make sure the kids are OK?
Then when she calms down she says (normally) "Why don't we go with the kids? It'll be fun." I say "What for?" W "Just to look around." Costco is a GAL activity for me. I don't mind taking the kids with me though at all.
She HATES Costco! So transparently controlling.
I don't see this working. She's always said I don't pay attention to her.
How am I supposed to do one of "the rules" when it replicates one of the things she's said she hates about me?
Ugh...
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Just ignore her reactions. You need to get to the point where you literally do not care what she thinks, says or does. Live your life for you. Thats it. Stop worrying about what she thinks.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Still detaching. Trying not to react to her BS snide/vicious/unrealistic/passive aggressive comments. It really is counterintuitive to not try to correct her BS. That is a 180 though.
Good, keep it up!
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We're relatively cordial to each other except when I do me. (GAL) She gets PISSED. It's really hard to not react emotionally. (Internally) I haven't reacted so that's good.
Can you give an example of this? WAS's don't typically get pissed about a LBS doing GAL stuff unless they are just disappearing without warning and/ or dumping home/kid care responsibilities on them.
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W You're going up to bed?!?! H Yeah. W Why are you going so early? You always go at 8. Why are you changing all of a sudden. You don't want to be in the same room as me? Is it so bad?
I so want to say YES!!!! I don't want to be in the same room! Same house! Same life! I'm sooo pissed at you for all of the things you did!!!! YOU KILLED ME AND THE KIDS!!! But I don't... I say, "No, I see how it might look like that to you and see that you're upset about it but it really isn't like that. I'm just tired. I hope you sleep well.
Great! That was a perfect "validating" response.
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How do I do me when I have to know she's going to be there for the kids? I'd like to just go do something when I get off work but I don't know if she'll be home in time for the babysitter to leave. Maybe I'll have to have a discussion about a pseudo visitation/custody schedule even though we live in the same house still.
Yes. Sit down with her, tell her you would like a day or two a week just to do whatever you want after work and offer her the same. Set designated days, like you watch the kids Monday and Wednesday so she is free to do what she wants and she watches them Tuesday and Thursday. Something like that.
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I don't see this working. She's always said I don't pay attention to her.
How am I supposed to do one of "the rules" when it replicates one of the things she's said she hates about me?
This is a common question. Here's the thing, right now you can't do anything "right" in her eyes. You come home from work on time every day then you are controlling and smothering her. You come home late from work then you are abandoning your responsibilities. You try to talk to her then you're not giving her enough time and space. You don't talk to her then you are being cold and indifferent. Right? YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT. So you DB. You DB until she gets over all her anger and resentment and hatred. You remain the rock and the lighthouse throughout. Some day she'll get over it and THEN you might have a shot at recon, but until then you're going to get anger and hatred and she will speak in absolutes- "we're NEVER getting back together", there's NO chance this will ever work", etc.
Can you give an example of this? WAS's don't typically get pissed about a LBS doing GAL stuff unless they are just disappearing without warning and/ or dumping home/kid care responsibilities on them.
I'm just leaving without saying anything unless she asks. Then very vague. I always have taken care of the kids at probably the 75/25% (Me 75) when we're at home so that's a 180. That sounds neglectful but isn't. She takes good care of them when I'm not doing whatever.
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Great! That was a perfect "validating" response.
Hard to do.
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Yes. Sit down with her, tell her you would like a day or two a week just to do whatever you want after work and offer her the same. Set designated days, like you watch the kids Monday and Wednesday so she is free to do what she wants and she watches them Tuesday and Thursday. Something like that.
I did that last night. She had a blow up last night and then came to "Work things out." about the one sided argument. I didn't participate and went to my room. She doesn't want anything to do with scheduling. I offered to do a calendar online. One of her lies was/is that she wanted to get rid of all of her Google apps etc. that way I couldn't tell what she was doing or see her emails. We had complete transparency until her A started and I didn't check up on her. Still don't want to know. Now, that's her excuse to not wanting an electronic calendar or anything on her cell. She's paranoid that I'll see what she's doing and doesn't want me to have access.
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This is a common question. Here's the thing, right now you can't do anything "right" in her eyes. You come home from work on time every day then you are controlling and smothering her. You come home late from work then you are abandoning your responsibilities. You try to talk to her then you're not giving her enough time and space. You don't talk to her then you are being cold and indifferent. Right? YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT. So you DB. You DB until she gets over all her anger and resentment and hatred. You remain the rock and the lighthouse throughout. Some day she'll get over it and THEN you might have a shot at recon, but until then you're going to get anger and hatred and she will speak in absolutes- "we're NEVER getting back together", there's NO chance this will ever work", etc.
Yeah that been readily apparent and once again last night. She took our nephew back to his dorm. When she got back, she started with "Let me ask you a question." in a snide tone. That's her go to when she's about to spew or accuse me of something. She says, "Right when I left, your blue tooth shut off in the car." Insinuating I shut it off so because I'm hiding something. That's attitude is part of her alien persona. (I didn't shut anything off or even touch my cell.) Then, "What happened to being completely open?" "That's you just being totally hypocritical." I just got up off of the couch and started taking the dog's out for the last time. She got really pissed and kept spewing.
I went upstairs to my room to get ready for bed. About five minutes later, she followed me up under the auspices of getting her laundry. Spewing the entire time. I just stood there for a awhile not really watching but waiting for her to get her laundry. It took her a while and as I was about to leave she finished. On her way out she said, "You didn't have to watch me, I'm not going to take anything you F-n tool bag.
About 30 min later she knocks and comes in with about half the attitude. I told her if she wanted to talk she would have to calm down and talk to me with out an attitude. She complied.
She wanted to talk about "How things are going." She says if things are going to be like this then we might as well separate everything and get ready for it to be over. She want's to know why I'm not saying anything besides what she told me when we talk. That I'm not doing anything to make her want to stay. Why I'm I going to IC, for her/us/me? She says I act like it's over and if I think it's over that I should just go ahead and move out.
She says it everything she can do to come home everyday and she thinks of moving out. She brought up separating the bank accounts and other things. I just told her that if she wants I won't stand in her way. She says "I'm not moving out until we get the D." Okie dokie then...
She basically indicated that she was still blaming me, she was still focused on herself and that my 180s/detaching is noticeable.
I basically validated where I could didn't say a lot when I couldn't validate and brought up the schedule.
She's loony right now.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I have a dilemma coming up. I have to qualify with a firearm every quarter. The W and her AP are instructors who will be running the qualification. I will actually have to see them both at the same time. I have no other choice.
What the best course of action here. It's completely unavoidable. There will be many other people (Co-workers) there who know us both and have no idea this is going on.
There are couple things I can ask her for. None of which are really feasible operationally.
I can ask her to not be there when I am.
I can ask her to make sure he's not there.
Asking her to do either goes against the rules here. Any ideas???
Thanks.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Hi Ske. Yikes...that is a crappy situation, no doubt. I would like to draw your attention to the phrase... “It’s completely unavoidable”. Sounds like you don’t have much of a choice so maybe you could look at it as an opportunity to DB. In other words, what a great chance to show your W and her AP that you are moving forward with your life and not being affected by what they do. Put a smile on your face, do your work, be friendly and show them you are unaffected by it all. Sounds like there is a goal for the day and you and your co-workers will be focused on getting qualified. Most of them likely would not notice anything if you keep your focus on the task at hand. Much of what you are worried about is probably a non-issue if you can keep yourself together. Trust me...your W and her AP are feeling even less comfortable than you with the situation so use that to your advantage. Having said all that, I am sorry you have to go through this. It is definitely a situation none of us would like to be in. However, it does not HAVE to be as bad as you think if you view it as a DB challenge to conquer. Good luck! (((HUGS)))
I did that last night. She had a blow up last night and then came to "Work things out." about the one sided argument. I didn't participate and went to my room. She doesn't want anything to do with scheduling.
In that case, just tell her that you are taking days X and Y each week to do your own thing. Tell her she is welcome to do the same if she chooses, that's up to her.
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I just got up off of the couch and started taking the dog's out for the last time. She got really pissed and kept spewing.
Good. I would just add that before leaving say something like "I will not tolerate being treated this way, if you want to treat me with respect then I will listen, otherwise I am not interested." THEN leave.
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She says I act like it's over and if I think it's over that I should just go ahead and move out.
"This isn't what I want but I can see it is what you want so I will not stand in your way. But I am not leaving, that's YOUR choice to make."
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She says "I'm not moving out until we get the D." Okie dokie then...
All the anger and spewing could be her trying to coerce you into pursuing S and/or D, she would definitely not be the first WAS to try this tactic. Just keep doing what you're doing- don't put up with her crap and don't let her sway you.
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She's loony right now.
It sure seems that way but it could be part of a covert plan.
Originally Posted by Ske0187
I have a dilemma coming up. I have to qualify with a firearm every quarter. The W and her AP are instructors who will be running the qualification. I will actually have to see them both at the same time. I have no other choice.
What the best course of action here. It's completely unavoidable. There will be many other people (Co-workers) there who know us both and have no idea this is going on.
There are couple things I can ask her for. None of which are really feasible operationally.
I can ask her to not be there when I am.
I can ask her to make sure he's not there.
Asking her to do either goes against the rules here. Any ideas???
Thanks.
You can't do it at another facility? If it's unavoidable then just go and do it. Don't say anything to her, just go and act like everything is fine.
Hi Ske. Yikes...that is a crappy situation, no doubt. I would like to draw your attention to the phrase... “It’s completely unavoidable”. Sounds like you don’t have much of a choice so maybe you could look at it as an opportunity to DB. In other words, what a great chance to show your W and her AP that you are moving forward with your life and not being affected by what they do. Put a smile on your face, do your work, be friendly and show them you are unaffected by it all. Sounds like there is a goal for the day and you and your co-workers will be focused on getting qualified. Most of them likely would not notice anything if you keep your focus on the task at hand. Much of what you are worried about is probably a non-issue if you can keep yourself together. Trust me...your W and her AP are feeling even less comfortable than you with the situation so use that to your advantage. Having said all that, I am sorry you have to go through this. It is definitely a situation none of us would like to be in. However, it does not HAVE to be as bad as you think if you view it as a DB challenge to conquer. Good luck! (((HUGS)))
HA! Genius! If history is any indication, work affairs are notoriously difficult to keep hidden from coworkers. It doesn't take much to get the rumor mill started and it's hard to hide goo goo eyes when you're boinking around.
Nose down, do my work, smile. Good advice. That's my usual demeanor anyway.
Also, I really didn't even look at it from their perspective! That's fantastic! That takes most of the stress away. I'm not saying I'm going to "bro hug" the dude (or shake his hand) He was my friend. Just a quick "what's up" as I stroll by. They have to be crapping bricks! HA! I know my W will have to say something before hand. She won't be able to control herself. She's TOTALLY stressed that I'm going to expose them at work. I really think that would be counter productive for the future. I know there's some debate on that but whatever.
Thank you and thanks for the virtual hugs!!!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Once again great advice. No wonder so many people come here!
[quoteIn that case, just tell her that you are taking days X and Y each week to do your own thing. Tell her she is welcome to do the same if she chooses, that's up to her. ][/quote]
Perfect. She'll LOVE that...
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Good. I would just add that before leaving say something like "I will not tolerate being treated this way, if you want to treat me with respect then I will listen, otherwise I am not interested." THEN leave.
I something similar but waaaay shorter. Not nearly as smooth. I don't even think she heard it. I'll use yours next time.
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"This isn't what I want but I can see it is what you want so I will not stand in your way. But I am not leaving, that's YOUR choice to make."
I said that almost word for word. I didn't say "It's what you want." She always says, "You don't know what I want!!!" when I say stuff like that. Definite trigger!!
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All the anger and spewing could be her trying to coerce you into pursuing S and/or D, she would definitely not be the first WAS to try this tactic. Just keep doing what you're doing- don't put up with her crap and don't let her sway you.
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It sure seems that way but it could be part of a covert plan.
Hmmmm. I'll have to crunch those numbers and think about that.
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You can't do it at another facility? If it's unavoidable then just go and do it. Don't say anything to her, just go and act like everything is fine.
No, I have to do it there. But....Now, I'm not sure I would. I might have to go there to shoot (My fav activity) and bask in their discomfort. I'm not generally vengeful or spiteful but there hasn't been very much in the consequence bin for her and nothing at all for him so it might be somehow deeply gratifying in a really sadistic, dark place in my otherwise pure heart...
I'll just go and be chill...
The responses to this post have made my day/month... THANKS AGAIN!!!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Hahaha! A lot of times we offer suggestions but don't say "why" we offer them, so let me explain. You approached her suggesting a schedule that was beneficial to both of you and she declined to talk about it so fine, YOU are going to take control of YOUR life no matter how she reacts to it. So if she refuses to agree to an equitable suggestion, then you just tell her you are taking control of your half of it (your two or three evenings to yourself I mean) and could care less what she does with her half. She can take her time and you'll watch the kids, or she can blow it off, not your problem. This is you asserting that you will NOT be controlled and bullied by her, and it is also you saying you are not going to sit around moping at home while she sows her wild oats. OF COURSE she will not like it, but inside a seed of respect will have been planted, and over time as you remain consistent in your ways that respect will continue to grow.
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I said that almost word for word. I didn't say "It's what you want." She always says, "You don't know what I want!!!" when I say stuff like that. Definite trigger!!
You're going to trigger her sometimes, because she is loaded and cocked and a good breeze is enough to trigger her. When it does trigger her then just go with the above, calmly but firmly state you will not be spoken to that way and if she continues then leave the room or the house. She's like a schoolyard bully hoping to get a reaction, and if she doesn't get one then eventually she'll tire of trying.
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I might have to go there to shoot (My fav activity) and bask in their discomfort. I'm not generally vengeful or spiteful but there hasn't been very much in the consequence bin for her and nothing at all for him so it might be somehow deeply gratifying in a really sadistic, dark place in my otherwise pure heart...
LOL! Well I don't know about that, but hopefully you get to a place where you just don't care. You are fine going and doing your thing and you don't care if one or both of them is there, and you don't care what they think about you being there. I mean in the end that is the ultimate revenge, you living your awesome life no matter how crazy she gets.
Well, it's hard to say. Depends on the sitch I guess.
For example, last night when I came home from Jiu Jitsu, (A new GAL activity) I forgot to text her that I was on the main road. (We do that when the babies are asleep so we can let the dogs out so they don't wake them.) So, I drive my car really slow down the dirt road and driveway so she has time. I happened to have my phone in my hand, my elbow kind of propped up on the console.
I get inside and I can tell she's about to spew but I have no idea why.
W. I know you were on the phone talking to someone, you don't have to drive slow up the driveway to finish it. Me. I can see why you would say that but I wasn't. I was driving slow because I texted you late. I just had the phone in my hand. (Hasn't she ever heard of Bluetooth???) W. Sure. Whatever you say. I know you were talking to someone. Me. I'm going upstairs. Sleep well.
It's the 5th time in the last three days she's basically called me a liar. I've NEVER lied to her about anything but the usual. Birthday stuff, surprise vacations, does this make me look fat...:)
I put that in the same category of her accusing me of cheating. It really pisses me off.
The end of a long answer to your short question...
The next time it might be: The last few times we've talked, you've accused me of lying. I find it very disrespectful and speaking to you like this isn't working for me. The next time you disrespect me like that I'm going to stop having conversations with you about anything but kids and finances until you can speak to me more respectfully. Then leave her presence...
Is that what you meant?
Thanks for the comments.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
She has mentioned going to counseling to work on communication. I'm really unsure if it's for me or us because of her mindset right now. Communication is definitely one of MY issues but it is hers too. She doesn't acknowledge the A having anything to do with our issues. (What??!!)
Anyway...
The question is, do I tell her why I don't want to go right now? I want to in the future but my position is that I'm not going as long as she is still seeing the OP. Is that reasonable?
I don't see it being effective while she's still in the A and in her "I'm not sure if I want to stay married" fence sitting mode.
I'm not playing into her plan B. It's too degrading.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
There is no reason to go to counseling when she's in an A. It's beta behavior and degrading. The only point for going to counseling is 'if' and 'when' she wants to actually work on the relationship with a goal of reconciliation. Doesn't always end that way, but both feet have to be firmly planted in the process. I would go dark as possible, no contact as much as possible, and GAL my eyes out. Figure out your life, and give her space. Figure out your boundaries too.
I can't really go dark though. I'm dim maybe. We live in the same house. I don't ever call or text unless it has to do with the kids or money. We interact relatively normally when the kids are awake or around. If I DB when the kids are around she gets pissy and I don't want the kids around that so I stay cordial and more conversant than when they're not around. I emailed her today at work because I needed a date for an operational thing we're doing. Emailing her was a normal thing. She called me and asked why I emailed instead of called. Damned if I do damned if I don't...
I said it was normal. I do it all the time. She started to get irate saying that wasn't true.
I've already told her that I won't discuss our MR while I'm at work and told her that again. Very calm and nice. She made a snide comment and hung up.
Sheesh...
Thanks for your answer!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Going dim is fine. I understand how hard it is to go completely dark when kids are in the mix, but you can achieve a good level of dimness. I did that with great effect and only communicated about kids and finances at the time. I think it's good that you're keeping a level of cordiality in front of the kids. Keep it out of their sight as much as possible.
The place where I had a very hard time, and failed most of the time, was keeping things cordial and having an indifferent attitude. I think this balance is key and hard to achieve, but one can with practice. It took me a while to get there and I still wish I had done it better.
About the email / phone thing, don't ruminate on it too much. Those are small things and they will find fault where they want to find fault. It's the overall macro approach that makes the difference with being consistent with DB strategies.
develop boundaries is probably one of the main things. If her making snide or angry comments bothers you, set a boundary for yourself to disengage and then follow through with action. Yeh, she'll be more pissed, but you'll command more respect in the end.
The main thing I can say is this - try and live your life as fully as possible without worrying too much about her. the more you can move towards detachment and building a life that you want, the better you will be in the end no matter what happens.
This was posted by Sandi2 from the links you steered me to.
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The WAW will always refer to "the other problems in the M". She feels "that" is the basis of what's happening .....not her A.
So, do you know what problems she's referring to? I dare say it includes every year you've been M.[/quote}
Let me throw this in free of charge. I talked to my H for years, trying to get him more involved in our R. I needed emotional intimacy but he didn't have a clue as to how to do that. By the time I was in an EA my feeling for him was in the trash can. But that was when he came to life....when he discovered OM. I think most WAW's involved in an EA, have a feeling of resentfulness toward their H for waiting until things got to the point of OM entering the picture before he begins to open his eyes & ears to what's going on in the MR. The WAW is thinking, "So this is what it took to wake you up"! The problem is that she may feel it's too little too late.
I'm not defending her but rather trying to enlighten you on what she may be feeling. She will deny OM/EA b/c that is easier. If you have solid proof then she will have an attitude of "So...what of it?" Then she'll try to reverse everything to make you out to be the bad guy. So, be prepared.
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The WAW will always refer to "the other problems in the M". She feels "that" is the basis of what's happening .....not her A. So, do you know what problems she's referring to? I dare say it includes every year you've been M.
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I'm not defending her but rather trying to enlighten you on what she may be feeling. She will deny OM/EA b/c that is easier. If you have solid proof then she will have an attitude of "So...what of it?" Then she'll try to reverse everything to make you out to be the bad guy. So, be prepared.
This is EXACTLY what my admitted contributions to my marriage problems were and EXACTLY what the W did and said before and again last night.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
God... I just spent a hour writing and it went poof...
I can't do it again right now.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
This post is me journaling but I'm ALWAYS open to comments on the conversations.
The last couple of days have been interesting. We had a talk day before yesterday which I initiated. I thought I would ask her about going to MC. I don't want to go because she's still in the A as previously stated but she brought it up the other day so I figured I'd ask what she wanted to get out of it and I could take her attitude temperature.
Her attitude sucked...
About MC, she said she wanted to improve our communication because we can't talk anymore. I'm DBing and detaching so she's interpreting that as me being rude. I'm really not. I'm being very cordial, validating like a madman and not saying anything when I'm unsure which way to go.
Her biggest deal is when I enforce a boundary. She says that I'm doing everything on my terms, especially communicating. (That's because I am. Mostly, enforcing boundaries.) An example would be that when she starts calling me names I disengage. In the last week she's called me a F-ing tool, A-hole and basically called me a liar about five times.
The other day I needed to ask her about a range date. (Not a date date, a calendar date) So I emailed her the Q. She called me immediately to ask why I emailed her instead of calling. (I used to email her regularly) I really didn't have an answer so I just said, "I don't know, I email you all the time." Then she started arguing about how often, why we can't communicate. Blah, blah, blah... I asked her before not to call me at work to talk about MR stuff so I said, I'd really rather not talk about this while I'm at work. She continued. I reminded her again. She continued, so I hung up.
Later when I was home she wanted to talk again but my S1.5 was out on the deck with us. So I said, "Can we talk about this after the kids go to bed?" (My boundary) She started spewing about me controlling when we talk. I said, "I just don't want to talk in front of the kids for any reason. It's not good for their health." She continued. I stood up and walked back into the house. She's interpreting all of this as controlling and doing things only on my terms.
I wanted to start scheduling the days of the week that we're responsible for taking care of the kids. I figure we'll definitely be co-parenting most of the time right now but it allows us the freedom to make appointments, GAL, etc. I told her I would put it on a shared Google calendar. She said she didn't want to use any tech and she didn't want to use it. I said fine, but just look at it and if you still think it's a bad idea, then so be it. The next day she looks at it and has a cow saying that I totally disregarded her wishes because she said she didn't want to do it.
Another thing we went over during the MC talk was if she would have a plan to gain my trust back. I opened that question with the fact that I'm 50% of the issue in our marriage and I own that but what she was willing to do to take ownership of what she did? The marriage was crappy according to her but what she did was potentially destroy it, endanger the adoption, hurt me and everyone in the family gravely.
She asked me if I thought of all that when I cheated. (In my past, not in this MR) I told her this wasn't about me. She then said that she'd already apologized numerous times, (Only twice) and that she wasn't going to live the next few months going over it again and again. She also said that she was proving she was sorry by "letting me" do all of these things that I've been doing and not reacting to the DBing but "that won't last forever." (She doesn't know what DBing is, she's only seeing and noticing the actions) "Letting me."??? Alrighty then...
Then, I said... "That really isn't going to work for me. You're going to have to prove the A is over and take more responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in before I agree to go to MC. Working on communication isn't my priority for MC right now."
I am working on communication in IC and she knows that. We had a conversation about communication where she told me I wasn't learning to communicate because all I was doing was repeating back to her what she said and agreeing with her on everything. Duh... I told her that I WAS learning to communicate because what I was doing was trying to practice "Active Listening" but I'm not that good at it yet. She just looked at me with a stupid look on her face. (It was priceless. A small victory.) I told her that IC will improve me even if she doesn't benefit from it in the future.
We also talked about her disrespecting me by calling me names and being snide all the time. She agreed that she shouldn't be doing that. Then...
I ended up having to cut off this conversation because she started trying to beat me up with the A is my fault because I didn't meet her needs etc. She started the spew so I told her I wasn't going to let disrespect me or let her beat me up anymore and I went out to the deck. She followed me out there, and started saying she was going to be selling everything and wanted to confirm that I wasn't going to do anything to help her and she was going to sell the BMW first. That one was a definite dig. The bimmer is my baby. She also brought up getting the D and all I had to do was give her the word. I went to my room.
Yesterday's IC went awesome. Told my therapist about the advice I got on the board about changing the perspective about having to go shoot at the range and how I needed to think about the level of anxiety from the W and OM's perspective, that they feel massive anxiety anticipating ME being on the range with THEM. (Which was TOTALLY AWESOME and helped me out with a total epiphany and all of my anxiety flowed out of me!) I relayed the email/phone call thing to her and she asked "Why do you think she called you immediately after she got the email?" BOOM!!! I didn't put it together but she sure did. In a nanosecond. She called not to give me hate and discontent about the email. It was about her anticipation of me seeing him and her on the range.
They both know my past is full of professional and military violent confrontations. They probably are thinking the absolute worst thing ever. Me being on the same firearms range they both are on. I'm a very mellow dude in real life but the W is only thinking in extremes right now. So they are probably scared. HA that's a total joke. That is a complete and total egotistical, self important mindset. To think they're important enough for me to trash the lives of my entire family by doing something that stupid. I might not need my wife but my kids sure do.
I thought about not writing that on the board but I figure I need to put my thoughts out there. I'm not dangerous to anybody or anything. Well, maybe not anything. I'm definitely dangerous to a steak. Any steak is definitely in peril...
So the latest is that for the last couple days, she's not wearing her wedding ring. I'm ignoring it. She knows it's very important to me so I know she's fishing for a confrontation. SORRY! Not happening... Maybe I can use that in the D hearing (If there is one) to get it into the property settlement.
Thanks for listening!!!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
You're going to have to prove the A is over and take more responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in before I agree to go to MC.
Makes sense. There is no marital relationship while she's in another's arms.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
She says that I'm doing everything on my terms, especially communicating.
I applaud you enforcing not being called names. The other partner often initially get upset they can't control you, and that's okay. When I began enforcing boundaries--I see now they're healthy even in a good relationship--my partner would say, "You're controlling when WE do X" and I'd reply, "YOU do X anytime you want. I'm controlling when I do X. You control you. I control me." I'm more sensitive to her boundaries, too.
Not talking about affairs at your desk or in front of your son is also very reasonable. I agree with her, though, only offering "after the kids are asleep" puts you 100% in control. You're controlling this. You want her to talk! Can you offer up any other times e.g. lunchtime or after dropping your son off so she has choices, too?
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
I told her I would put it on a shared Google calendar. She said she didn't want to use any tech and she didn't want to use it. I said fine, but..
How about "Fine, I'll post it on the fridge" to validate she doesn't want to use tech?
I hate Google Calendar, too, Sorry, Google.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
she told me I wasn't learning to communicate because all I was doing was repeating back to her what she said and agreeing with her on everything. Duh... I told her that I WAS learning to communicate because what I was doing was trying to practice "Active Listening". She just looked at me with a stupid look on her face. (It was priceless. A small victory.) I told her that IC will improve me even if she doesn't benefit from it in the future.
Was that exchange an example of active listening OR of scoring a victory for your relationship?
Listening with empathy isn't easy. I often try to paraphrase (use different words) which makes me focus more on her message and tests that I really understood what I thought she was saying.
Bad active listening: Wife: "I hate it when you do things like that." Husband: "You hate it when I do things like that."
Good active listening: Wife: "I hate it when you do things like that." Husband: "It really frustrates you when I don't put the toilet seat down?"
In the above scenario: Her: "You aren't learning to communicate because all I'm doing is repeating back what I say!" Him: "You don't feel like I'm hearing you, because I parroted what you said." Her: "Yes!! Could you stop that?" Him: "I'll try!"
There really is no end date. She lives in another room right now so there's no dropping off.
I'm in a holding pattern/pseudo friend zone until our son's adoption is finalized. We're waiting on the date. It'll be within the next 10 days. That is actually my #1 priority. Outside of my SIL & BIL no one knows about this. I'm keeping it this way because my sisters/nieces and the rest of her fam would be devastated and it would put a pawl over the entire celebration. We are still celebrating because we have fought so hard for him for the last 1.5 years and can at least keep him out of the foster system. It's a happy day all within the bubble of this horribleness.
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Not talking about affairs at your desk or in front of your son is also very reasonable. I agree with her, though, only offering "after the kids are asleep" puts you 100% in control. You're controlling this. You want her to talk! Can you offer up any other times e.g. lunchtime or after dropping your son off so she has choices, too?
The time was only really for this specific case. However, it has been my go to time to talk. I brought this up to my therapist and she said the same thing. I should offer her a time but say "or when you're otherwise available. " or similar.
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How about "Fine, I'll post it on the fridge" to validate she doesn't want to use tech?
We haven't talked about our sitch to the nanny yet. She probably knows or has noticed a new occupant in the spare bedroom but she has her own family issues and I don't want to pile our BS on to her yet. Probably after the adoption. So, until then, it'll have to stay electronic. How does iOS calendar sound???
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Was that exchange an example of active listening OR of scoring a victory for your relationship?
Well... It was what my therapist recommended. The actual purpose was to point out that I was demonstrating something she had so much emphasis on in our M and that her expectations were so low that she missed the fact that I was trying to listen to her intently. I didn't want to say, "Look at me I'm changing!!" It was a victory in our relationship based on her reaction in that it made her think about what I was actually attempting. But! It was somewhat satisfying on the interpersonal side too.
Based on the DB methodology, I think I'm doing a few things right, a few things wrong and some things that are in between that I need to improve on. Two of the things that I really need to improve is paraphrasing and validating in a way that doesn't sound like I'm doing it out of a book. I'm not really parroting but it could definitely be smoother. My therapist comes up with these validations so smoothly it's HATEFUL!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Brene Brown says there are four qualities to empathy: 1. Perspective Taking 2. Non-Judgement 3. Recognizing emotion in other people 4. Feeling that
Yesterday my partner had an IC session. I feared her IC encouraged her to take a step back, so when I asked her about her session and she said she was too tired to talk, that fed into my fears. It's hard to validate when you're being judgy. My relationship's not on a knife's edge anymore, but I can do better.
Originally Posted by "Ske0187"
The actual purpose was to point out that I was demonstrating something she had so much emphasis on in our M and that her expectations were so low that she missed the fact that I was trying to listen to her intently. I didn't want to say, "Look at me I'm changing!!"
I see, you wanted her to realize repeating things was actually an example of you trying to communicate better. I get what you're trying to do. Mixing validation and disagreement can be tricky.
After the last debacle of our last conversation, it appears we've reached some sort of equilibrium. We're being cordial and having some conversations (Short ones) when the kids are awake and we're eating dinner.
My patience was tested the other day out of the blue. The W went out to clean up the garage. Which she did. In the middle of it dinner was ready so we were eating and then she went back out. Later she came back in and said, "I wish you would've come out there to help me finish. (I was cleaning up after dinner. My turn for the kids meals according to the schedule.)
I almost started the "You forfeited the right to ask me to help you do anything, let alone complain about it!" speech. But I didn't. I was a little pissed but I blew it off and didn't react. I just said, "Oh, I thought you were done."
I'm mentally vacillating from one extreme to the other. From, "I'll do anything to save my marriage." through "There's no way I can stay married.". This week, I'm leaving. Next minute, hour, day, week... Who knows? I suppose this is why it's best not to make rash, emotional decisions.
I know i'm not supposed to think of the big D but my mind goes there when I think of the amount of time I have left on the earth in comparison to how long it would take to be happy again without her. How many years will it take to do all of this work only to discover it didn't work in the first place and we get divorced anyway? It'll only take 9-12 months to get through the legal part of the divorce.
The court moved the adoption date to next month but acknowledged the permanent placement in the adoptive home and took our S out of the foster care system. That's some consolation for the date move.
Crappy though!
During IC last week my therapist asked me to read the book, "Un-%uck Yourself". It made a lot of sense and will be very helpful to me when I figure out which way this goes.
There's a saying in the Navy about ejecting from a malfunctioning airplane, "Know when to go, then go." My marriage is the airplane and I'm not sure if I can save it yet but right now, even though it's pointed down, it's still airborne.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
As indicated in my original post, this is my fourth marriage. I thought I had learned many things in my experience and was doing all of the right things. Apparently not. When one is not meeting the whole "meeting emotional/physical needs" thing is so big that you would think your S would mention it SOMETIME before they run off to get that from someone else.
But alas, no...
It just blows me away.
This time is different for me from all of the other marriages due to the kids being adopted and so young. That's one of the things that makes me so angry at the W. She says she knew all of her feelings in her rewrite of our history before and after we started the adoption process. Even before we had any of the kids in our house. I can't even believe she would've had those feelings and still let me go ahead and think that we would be building this family. It's not like she got pregnant and didn't have a choice. She had a choice. She could've said something instead of affecting the lives of our wonderful little kids.
I was just reading Wolfman's string and it occurred to me how much this forum is helping me deal with this. I keep reading the same (But different) stories about WWs and WHs and how crazy they are, from one day to the next doing things that are COMPLETELY out of character, being combative, emotional, cold, uncaring or unaware of the effects and consequences of their actions, dropping the bomb, etc.
I wish I would've had this resource when my first marriage broke up. When I was younger, I used to think that therapy, groups and those things were a bunch of hocus pocus. I was skeptical at best. I was WRONG.
After this experience, I'm thoroughly convinced that shared suffering and verbalization with people going through the same experience is cathartic. This might sound strange but I feel better reading other people's issues that so closely resemble what I'm going through personally. Seeing how people are there that care, who empathize and provide sage guidance based on their own crisis resolutions. (Or not)
Thank you to all of those people who open up and especially to those providing advice and guidance.
Just thought I'd throw that out there this morning.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I am right there with you Ske. This forum has been a godsend. I wasn’t able to save my marriage (probably not a bad thing) but they have definitely helped me save myself. I don’t think I would be doing nearly as well as I am if it weren’t for the people on here who stick around and offer advice long after they have moved on from their sitches. Glad you are finding the forum as helpful as I have found it. (((HUGS)))
More to come tomorrow but the quote of the night was from the W:
"I've said I'm sorry as many times as I'm going to. I'm not going to sit around and kiss someone's a$$ that obviously doesn't care about my feelings."
This was in response to me saying. "It's not my responsibility to cover up your infidelity."
We're invited to a family tailgate party this weekend and to spend the night at her sister's house. (The sister and BIL know but no one else knows.)
The W doesn't want to stay but I do. I told her I was staying and she could either leave the kids with me or take them home. She was livid. She was asking how could I do that? There'll be all kinds of questions. That's where I said the "it's not my responsibility..." thing.
She texted me that she wants to separate the cell phones. I texted back that if she wanted to start separating things we need to sit down and have a conversation. So we did. She started talking about us being together in the future but she couldn't see how. I asked her what the biggest road block was and she said she didn't think I could change.
Hmmmm...I asked if there was anything else and she said of course. There's many other smaller things. I was stunned. She's been displaying classic affair fog behavior but that really highlighted the depths of the dysfunction.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Friday evening the W asked what I was doing as far as spending the night at the sister's house. I wasn't too sure what I was going to be doing but I was leaning towards coming home just to keep the peace a little and I had Jiu Jitsu Sunday afternoon.
The W asked and I said I'm probably coming back. She said "Why don't you stay?" I was then perplexed. She was pissed that I wanted to stay and then wanted me to stay. I just started shaking my head from the turnaround. I shouldn't have though.
I gave her the reason about Jiu Jitsu. She then got pissed about me shaking my head. I was more or less speechless about her turn around so I was kind of quiet about it. She started acting like I was insulting her about it and started raising her voice. I asked her to calm down and she said all she was trying to do was be accommodating. I told her I appreciated that but she needed to calm down a little so we could talk. She then went into what I had said the night prior and misstated what I had said. I corrected her, (BIG mistake) stating what I had actually said. She totally drew me into an argument. I had told myself this wouldn't happen but it did...
She then transitioned into blaming and name calling. She called me a narcissist and an a$$hole. I then said "This is why I don't like to talk to you. You're just not safe to talk to." She said. Well, I'm sorry for calling you an a-hole, but you are a narcissist so I'm not apologizing for that.
I'm pretty sure I'm not a narcissist but I had to look it up. I'm not happy that she baited me into some minor level of self doubt. That irks me. I think I'm just a normal guy and with the exception of the surprise WW, I had normal guy marital problems. I now realize they were alot bigger than I thought but none of them were because I'm a narcissist...WTF...
I'm thinking she's not telling her therapist the truth about our relationship. I think she's probably giving her the "history rewritten" version of our issues and leaving out the infidelity. Otherwise, she wouldn't have come up with the narcissism angle. She's very smart but that's not really in her wheelhouse.
Anyway, I'm in the "this isn't going to work out" mode right now. If I wait long enough, my mind will change again though. I really don't know how much of this is working for me or against me. I'm thinking it may be too early to tell.
I've started meditating. I really didn't think much of it in the past but it really seems to get my mind calmed down from it's frantic pace so I'm glad for it.
My SIL asked how things were going. I said really crappy. She still wants me to go to MC. I'm not sure I want to go while the W still has contact with the OM. I'm only considering it because maybe the MC would open her up to see the fog she's in and what she is putting at risk. I think it's probably a waste of time at the moment and would end up just being in the "I did everything I could." category.
Time is on my side and going or not going to MC isn't a super critical decision at the moment. It's only been six weeks since BD and my mind is still everywhere.
Well, back to the trenches...
Thanks for listening.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I would recommend IC counseling but not MC while your wife is still talking to OM.
I've seen it a million times where a WAS will attend marriage counseling and then tell everyone "Well I've tried everything, even MC, and our R is still broken. Guess its time to officially leave Ske".
I'm in IC now. IC keeps hinting at MC. I've been pretty adamant about not going until now. I feel a little wishy washy but I accept that as my reality right now so no biggie there.
Like a said though my mind is all over the place so it's good that the folks here are consistent in their advice.
Lord knows I need it...
I think my next stop may be an attorney for a consultation. The W has been very emotional and vicious. I'm afraid she's going to file as a result of her emotions. I don't want anything to go through the court until we've both agreed to do it. I want both of us to be in control of our assets not the court. The only time I would go would be to keep the kids in the house but I'm not so sure of that either. My plan would be to co-parent on a 2-2-3 schedule anyway. We'll see.
Thanks again for the comment.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I plan to respond more soon, but I have a ninja tip for this one—
Originally Posted by “Ske”
She then went into what I had said the night prior and misstated what I had said. I corrected her, (BIG mistake) stating what I had actually said.
A speaker has an INTENT he turns into a MESSAGE that has an IMPACT on the listener. There’s almost always s gap between the intent and impact. Instead or arguing over the message—usually futile since even if you agree on words, it’s hard to agree on tone and body language—use “I intended to say X” and “You heard Y”. Suddenly, the disagreement is gone.
"The Muse" lists four alternatives: (1) Listen, (2) Empathize, (3) Offer to Help, (4) Breathe.
It's like they stole 3 of 4 responses from the DB playbook!
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I'm pretty sure I'm not a narcissist but I had to look it up. Otherwise, she wouldn't have come up with the narcissism angle. She's very smart but that's not really in her wheelhouse.
Narcissism and the related term Gaslighting are commonly discussed in divorce groups. I somehow imagine the secretly cheating partner to being higher on the narcissism index.
Can I also suggest you never again tell her to calm down. This could infuriate her too, and she'll see it as patronising. If it reaches the stage where you need to say this, you're better walking away.
Don't worry about what she called you. I think it's projection. I got called a 'money hungry c--t'; a few times by my XW. Let it all wash over you, and do your boundaries.
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
I feel like a third grader wanting to say "I know!"
I read all of this advice on here and other places, over and over again but then once the "battle" is joined, it all goes out the window and I draw a blank or screw up.
It's like I took the class and then when I'm in the lab, I forget the freakin procedures...
I really appreciate the critiques. It will let me try to apply the techniques better next time. (I hope...)
Yeah, she's definitely projecting. It's one of the things she did before the BD. She must have accused me of cheating 15 times.
She was also gaslighting hardcore when I asked her why I couldn't get a hold of her on the phone after she was supposed to be off work. She'd say I was nuts, didn't know how much work she had, blah, blah, blah...
CW
I read that communication piece again yesterday. One of the things I've always had to do is to go back and explain my intent when I've said something that was taken out of context. I've become a little better on first articulation choosing my words more carefully. It's way easier to get my point across if I haven't sent her into orbit first.
"Never tell her to calm down again." That should be a mantra like "There's no place like home, there's no place like home" I may have that tattooed on the back of my hand.
Thanks again!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I just discovered that the W went out with the AP on my birthday. She then came home and made me a birthday cake. Sick...
In previous posts I mentioned having to go to the range on my birthday to qualify and I would have to see the W and AP there. At first I was not keen on the idea at all but then I got another perspective and was actually looking forward to it. Sick right...I was actually looking forward to giving them both anxiety...
The night before, I didn't go to my room when I usually do and the W asked me what I was doing. I said I didn't have to go in early because I was shooting in the morning. Somehow then, she manipulated the nanny to not be there the next day. I have no idea how. The nanny's not involved in our problems. Anyway, she told me the nanny was sick and one of us would have to stay home. I was disappointed because of my sick plan but I'm always looking for a reason to spend time with my rats so I said I would stay home. Little did I know I fell into her nefarious plan.
I had a blast with my kids though. They're so funny! (Almost all the time...)
Apparently, they had planned on spending the day together because neither of them showed up to work that day.
What a bunch of crap. I knew they were still seeing each other at work but the whole day off thing had me bothered. Then I decided to not be bothered. I mean, I know they're still seeing each other so what's the diff if I find out a detail and she lied and deceived.
I already know she's a lying cheater. Was I supposed to be surprised???
Anyway, I got a full day with my kids out of it. Happy Birthday to me!
BTW the cake was a keto cake and it was horrible...
I'm going to go over this in IC this afternoon then I'll have it off of my chest twice before I see the W this evening. I'm really going to have to plaster a smile on my face and watch my attitude tonight for sure. I was going to drink a beer but that's out. I gotta be on my game now.
I'm getting a divorce in my mind for the last two weeks. This didn't help keeping my fantasy and reality lives apart...
I get to take my D2.5 to gymnastics and pancakes in the morning. I can't wait!
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
Anyway, she told me the nanny was sick and one of us would have to stay home. I was disappointed because of my sick plan but I'm always looking for a reason to spend time with my rats so I said I would stay home. Little did I know I fell into her nefarious plan.
I already know she's a lying cheater. Was I supposed to be surprised???
I'm getting a divorce in my mind for the last two weeks. This didn't help keeping my fantasy and reality lives apart...
Gosh, well no I reckon this wouldn't, but maybe it will help you to make your fantasy a reality. I wonder what's making you hang onto this woman who was transformed into a "lying cheater"?
Leaving her as a "lying cheater" doesn't mean you couldn't accept her if she became normal again.
Well...What keeps fantasy from becoming reality right now... 1. My mind is too hosed to make any lifetime decisions yet. 2. I have to get through my son’s adoption mid October. I can’t have the civil action pending when the adoption occurs. 3. I don’t want to tell my sisters about this if I stay with the W. 4. They’re coming to stay for about a week and it would ruin the adoption celebration for them. This has been a very complex and difficult process for our family and is worthy of a celebration unencumbered by this BS. 5. I talked a line about deciding not to let the birthday discovery bother me. It did and does. It has taken me back About 90% from BD. I’m hoping my mind recovers faster though. 6. I’m committed not to make decisions based on my emotional state. 7. I have to see if DBing works. It’s too soon to tell and I have time. 8. I need more time to be a better me.
I don’t really have confidence that I won’t have to divorce. The W is going to be working there where he is. She won’t quit or move or entertain those options. She’s deep in her fog. I’m GALing enjoying my kids and can avoid the future financial constraints right now with her income still contributing.
Sleep would be awesome right now! Gonna try again...
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I went back and caught up on some of your stich . Newbie too .I like the part when you don’t know what to say don’t say anything. It’s taken me a little bit to learn not to respond to about 50 percent of what H is saying because it’s just non sense or baiting . Not making a life time decision on an emotion you are feeling is a great idea .
Hi Cali. Yeah. Today I had to endure about 25 minutes of revisionist history. I might have said 10 words. There just wasn’t any room to even validate. She skated right up to my boundaries but didn’t cross any. She said that she had spent the last 15 years caring about what I needed but she stopped caring about me when she started her A. What a bunch of horse hockey. I really didn’t know what to say to that. How does one validate that??? Hope your day went well.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I figured after almost two months my emotions would have stabilized more than they have. I'm surprised at my emotional instability. By that I mean that I thought I'd be less sad, angry and bitter by now but it's not happening like that. I'm in the "I'm getting divorced" mindset and it's getting worse. I'm always thinking about how she could've done what she has done.
Totally unproductive.
I've been accepting of all of the emotions I've had so far and I guess I'll have to accept these again too. After having all of this in my life before, I always said I wouldn't ever accept being in this mindset again.
I thought I had handled all of this and have been detaching. Then I found out about them being together on my birthday. Now, I feel just like I did after BD. I'm worried about what she's doing when she's not at home. That's total BS and super unproductive. I don't need to feel that way. I don't want to feel that way. It just tells me that the results of my efforts to detach aren't as far along as I thought or hoped they would be. I though I was more detached than I obviously am.
It just pisses me off. Listening to her BS about how I was so horrible that she went to somebody else. What a crock. Then she tells me Saturday that she pushed her hopes and dreams off for me for 12 years and didn't have kids because I didn't want them. (True I didn't, but she knew that when we married plus it ended up she couldn't have any.) That we got married and I moved to DC for two years. I didn't, but had to travel up there relatively often.
I couldn't abide the kids comment and had to retort ("Yet there are two upstairs and it took six years to get them.") I could see that kind of cracked her delusion a little. The facts just didn't conform to her revision of our history so it affected her for a second.
We had a discussion about not hurting the kids. She said that no matter what happened, she knew she could always trust me to take care of the kids and she would never do anything to hurt them either. I then had to bring up that when she starts talking about our R or wanting to argue in front of them it hurts them. She got pissed about that. I know I shouldn't have said that and I'm trying not to. My mistake.
I'm just glad I didn't say what I really wanted to. I wanted to say, "Yeah, like doing something that would almost ensure the complete destruction of our family. Knowingly doing something that you are certain is a complete deal breaker for me and cause the kids to go the rest of their lives seeing their father 50% less than they could have. Me dying soon enough and not getting to spend half of the time I have left with them. I know that's a bit morbid but that's where my mind goes.
She said that she knew if it wasn't for the kids I'd be gone already. VERY TRUE.
She also reiterated that she's not going to live the rest of her life saying she's sorry about having the A.
The situation is still very new but there are so many things going against an R that I just can't even imagine getting to a place mentally to do it.
The big ones are:
1. She sees the OM everyday at work and goes just about everywhere with him. Won't stop and lies about it. 2. She keeps blaming me for the A. She always says I know the decision was mine "but". 3. The revisionist history. 4. Complete and total resentment based on her twisted opinion of our entire married life. I KNOW she was happy for some of it at least.
Booooo....
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
In the latest rant this morning she added the kids into the mix when she was spouting about what made her unsatisfied. That she asked for help with the kids along with everything else and I didn't respond by helping her.
I've contributed probably 60-75% to taking care of the kids. It blew me away.
She was gas-lighting HUGE this morning. She tried to convince me that I told her that I wasn't sure if i wanted to be/stay married.
Whatever...
I was seething inside but I did a really good job of validating though.
Me 56 W 42 T14 M12 ILYBINILWY 08/07/19 BD 08/11/19 Discovered Whaaaat? 2 Kids One DD 30mos Adopted from Foster 12/18 One DS 17mos Adopting First week of Sept 19 Separate BR 08/15/19
I think validation is great though at times I walk a fine line with it . Example last week my h called one of the kids wanted to talk -they missed me . I missed the phone call . I got a text saying the kids need to learn that both of us won’t always be there to answer because we both want our time to go out and have a life without them and won’t answer . I validated and said I understand you feel you want the kids to learn that about you and I understand. I then said the kids will not need to have that view point of me as I will always try to answer or call back .
I too get the “ you said you didn’t want to be together or unsure “ - your sitch is different you know there is actively OM. Sounds more like the rewrite of history . I would just simply say I understand you feel that way and walk away . Seething is ok just not in front of W.
I validated and said I understand you feel you want the kids to learn that about you and I understand. I then said the kids will not need to have that view point of me as I will always try to answer or call back .
Great response--validating that you understand his view, then stating your own. Since my sitch is now in a more healthy range, that's what I strive to do as well, and I see its usefulness in your co-parenting.
