No, he wouldn't expect to come and go as he pleases. His only legal stance for doing it today is this is his house.
But he would come round when I am not here nonetheless, to pick up or drop off stuff for the kids, to walk our dog (basically some of the same excuses he uses today). He'd just say, "Oh, I borrowed D13's keys as she forgot her football kit and she needed it for a game today and you were at work". It would all sound very reasonable, very int the interest of the children. And it the reasoning would probably be valid and not orchestrated. He would however, take advantage of it.
One day after he MO I was cleaning through some drawers in the office and found our marriage certificate and a video (yes, we were married that long ago that people still used videos) in one of the drawers. I put them in a plastic bag, the kind they give you in the supermarket, and tucked it away at the bottom of my wardrobe. It is a walk in wardrobe and also where I kept my wash bin). The plastic bag was shoved behind the wash bin among other plastic bags containing left over paper, odd socks I hadn't gotten around to throwing out, and the like. One day I was sorting through the plastic bags and the one containing the wedding certificate was gone. I asked him about it and he said "Oh yeah, I found it when I was looking for D13's football kit and put it in the cupboard with the photo albums". So, valid(ish) reason for being in my wardrobe. Invalid reason for nosing around the plastic bags behind the wash bin. I in no way think he was looking for the marriage certificate. He saw some plastic bags and he wanted to find out what was in them.
That will be what it's like when I am living in my own place. He will find some reason to come around when I am not here. He will find a reason to look in drawers (I was looking for the scissors because I needed to cut a tag off this shirt I bought for D10). Whilst he is in the drawers he will read every official looking document he finds. It's not malicious. It's just nosy. He won't tell me what he did.
I watched Marriage Story today. I had been putting off watching it because I thought it might bring too much back (for those who don't know it is about a couple going through a D). The movie is as good as they say.
I won't go into to many details, but basically a couple who loved one another and love their child but lost their way and don't know how to get back to where they were. Things are said and not said. At various points you can see the love they have for one another, but they are too proud, to set on their paths, to come back together. Then the legal system takes over, and they become people they did not think they were. There were a couple of lines that really got me (and I'm probably getting some of these wrong, but you'll get the idea):
"Criminal cases bring out the best in bad people, divorce cases bring out the worst in good people" "People fight for time with their children that they don't use, they just want to win"
Sorry about this one - I am in a reflective mood ...
I had always thought of MLC as some sort of cliche or punchline. A label we give to men of a certain age who leave their wives, buy sports cars and date younger women, or, an excuse by men for leaving their wives, buying sports cars and dating younger women. But I've had a long time to reflect and I think it's a real thing. A right of passage from adulthood to middle age. Watching D13 move from child to teenager (the moods, the ego, the sulking, the anger and the apparent woe is me of it all) has only cemented this view. I do think some men (and women) come out of it less scathed and the contributing factors are all to do with each individuals sense of self and how they look at relationships.
There are no happy marriages in my H's family tree. I've gone back three generations and every single marriage ended in divorce. His family history is littered with infidelity, petty fights over money, and fighting over childcare/access. Everyone feels they have been cheated on, and scr*wed financially by the other. Everyone cheated on and scr*wed over the other.
*** note: I am not saying I bare no responsibility. I was a sh!t wife the 6 months before BD, oblivious to what he was going through and focused totally on the impact of whatever it was, on me - and shutting down/shutting him out as a result. When BD happened, I pressured, I screamed, I begged, and I withdrew, sometimes within the same 24 hours.
So, he never stood a chance. His transition was always going to go full blown MLC. I can go through the signs but I think we all know them.
But things are different now. And so my question is:
What are the signs they are coming out of MLC?
He is nicer and more engaged. He is not angry and his reactions are those of a normal reasonable person instead of a simmering stewing pot of anger waiting, just waiting, for a reason to blow. Little things - telling me about shows he's been watching, sending me half a dozen messages a day (yes, all logistics or children updates - but some of them don't need to be sent), inviting me to things (and not blowing up when I say no) and not blowing up at things which he would normally blow up about. Doing things around the house (sorting and taking rubbish out, washing up and putting away dishes, taking laundry out of the washing machine and hanging it up). He also hasn't chased me about the house thing (though he has sent me other options to review) and said simply "let me know when you've had time to consider".
A part of me thinks this is him coming out (and recognizing I am a person and not a monster) and the other half says be cautious he's playing you.
I suspect my actions are the same either way. Don't be rushed. Make decisions based on the best outcome for me and the girls (however I chose to define that). But I am curious.
When I first came here and read as much as I could I was convinced my W was in MLC. The timeline leading up to BD and actions fit a lot of what folks here talk about. And it's not that I don't believe in it anymore, but I think my thoughts around it have changed a bit. It sounds like yours as well.
I was talking to a friend of mine who is a couple years older than my XW - about to turn 50. This conversation was way back in fall - perhaps last September? She isn't a super close friend, but someone who was a really great listener as I dealt with my M falling apart. And I asked her one time after a couple beers if she believed in MLC. That it sounded dumb (ie sports cars, date younger etc.) but that part of me really thought that was part of what drove W to needing to leave. And what my friend said was that she didn't believe in MLC per se, but more of a reassessment of life that happens. A serious look at the world around you and the life you've built, and that she didn't think it was avoidable - that everyone went through that adjustment and assessment.
I can't speak for this friend's history or experiences because I really don't know them intimately. But what she said made sense to me, and only now is settling in as a bit of a truth for me. Some people can handle the reassessment of life and turmoil in a quiet way. Some people need a bit of a shake-up - a big move, or a new job, or a new baby. Things that aren't really looked at as too weird by our society. And some people need all new life go-off-the-deep-end. But I think there's a huge variance in this spectrum.
I think ultimately the settling of the MLC/reassessment is one where the person is ultimately discovering that nothing has changed. They are still the same person with choices, and a life, and (hopefully) people that they love in their life. They couldn't escape it, and that's okay. The fear that they can't handle life goes away because they realize despite their fear and looking for something meaningful and new - they still were living their life. And maybe they were a bit detached from it during the fear stage, but it was happening without them, and being connected to those around them is not, in fact, that scary after all.
I guess that's a lot of words to say this: I see the "out of the tunnel" stage as the person realizing they don't have to fear everything around them. They start to feel grounded and safe again. So they start acting "normal" again.
You know your H really, really well. And you regularly call him out on his BS here on the forum if you feel he is being unfair. So if you feel he is authentic in his kindness and not trying to play you - you're probably right. What does that mean? I don't know. Does it change any of your choices around your living or the house? Probably not? But it might make you also lower your guard a little, and have a slightly adjusted dynamic with him.
Lastly, I love what BluWave has to say about MLC. She totally doesn't believe in it. Just another perspective to consider. And then there is Westo over in MLC forum. I kept up with her threads forever and her H came out of a 3 year (4 year? I forget) absence and they reconciled. But she documented his slllooooowwww changes really well, and you can see how she chose to respond to it.
And to add to this - I literally just came across an article (unprompted) on the Happiness Curve. About how life satisfaction dips in the 40s, then in the 50s starts to grow with a new-found sense of connectedness. Or something. I didn't read the article. Don't ask me what it's about.
Yail - I like your friends position on MLC. I think it fits well with my own views. And I agree with premise of the life satisfaction curve article.
I don't think it matters too much anymore whether he had MLC or he was depressed. It would have been useful to understand at the start because I would have been in a better position to act , but, retrospect is 20/20, right? It is however a means by which I am able to view our last two years with a less bitter eye.
Not much to report. I could be wrong but I don't think he is lurking. I found another document in my recents (a download on right of access) which I don't recognise, and as I had noted in a previous post that my recents list was the give-away, I doubt that, if he had been here, he would have made the same mistake twice.
I am still not in a position to respond to how we move forward and he is not pressuring me to. He wants to leave the decision up to me so he does not have to be the bad guy although I get the impression his preference is for me to stay put. I am balancing out the interests of the children (i.e. staying put) vs the unhealthy nature (for me) of our current set up. It prevents both of us from truly moving on.
I am not actively Db'g. It has been a long time since my thoughts have been clouded by "does this draw us closer together or push us further apart" and the focus is on "is this better/worse for me (and the children)". However, unfortunately, when it comes to the house, what would be better for me (and my healing), is worse for the children. Signal FS the procrastinator !!!
***** I met up with the boy (who I spoke about about this time last year). My first flirtation and a signal to myself that I had gotten my mojo back. We still see each other regularly though the flirtation is long gone. He sometimes messages to catch up and sometimes I do. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no. Ditto for him. But it's nice that we can do that without any expectations. We talk openly with no awkwardness. He tells me about his GF (about 6 months now and really lovely) and I tell him about the kids, or work or H (who he thinks is a w**nker). I miss the excitement and anticipation but I don't think that had to do with him, it was about me. I am happy for him when he tells me of things that are going well, and emphathise when he tells me of things that are not. I wonder if H and I will ever get to that same place. I doubt it. I was never in love with the boy and therefore nothing to grieve (no future hopes and dreams destroyed, no memories of a past burning in his wake).
***** Our nanny just left (she had to pick some stuff up) and we were discussing an incident where she ran into him in a club soon after he MO. He was with a friend who kept insisting that she (and her friend) go back to my H's flat for the evening. Phrases like "Go on, you know you want to f*** him". She found it all very uncomfortable and said H did as well. She had told me about this before, but I had assumed my H was out with a friend who I did not get on with (the one that was encouraging him to leave me). It was someone I too considered a friend. It was him I spoke to after BD who told me I needed to stand back and let it play out, to give H his space and see where it went. I remember running into him about 6 months after H MO and telling him I was glad H had him in his life. I feel a fool.
The other thing that has upset me about this is this was 1 month after he MO, it was in our home town and with someone H knows I speak to. If he could behave like this under those circumstances, what was he doing elsewhere? I know it doesn't matter, whats done is done, but I am annoyed ANYWAY.
I need to go back to the beginning of this post and reflect on 'understanding' and 'kindness'. But really, f*****g one month after MO he is acting like a drunken desperate teenage boy.
It has been a really hard week. Conversations re the house continue and there have been some revelations regarding things he has done since we separated (so fair) that have thrown me.
I started seeing an IC this week. A CBT specialist because I don't want to talk about my childhood anymore. I am not sleeping, I've lost weight again, and my head is permanently in the tunnels. I need to get out before it gets worse
I have known for some time that he has been dating. I ran into him on a date about 5 months after he moved out and someone saw him on a dating app in July of last year. I was upset about the date (it was only 5 months after) but I was fine when I found out about the site. It was only to be expected. A mountain out of a molehill. He ran into the office lady from D10's school on a night out, they exchanged numbers, they messaged each other back and forth for a while until she became crazy and he blocked her. She told people they were in a relationship but he dropped her when she wanted more. For what it's worth, I believe him. She is totally nuts, delusional and a fantasist. Though I am disappointed that he would engage in the first place. He was flattered, and it is nice to have someone message you - until they start killing your pet rabbit.
Anyway, to the house. He doesn't want me to sell but he also no longer wants to contribute in anyway. He has come up with options for reducing my outgoings (going interest only) so he can cease payments to me and get a bigger place for him and the girls. It is the very definition of cake eating. I have told him that I will not enter into a deal of any sort because I want the option to sell when it suits. If he can come up with a schedule that supports 50/50 then he can cease paying bills.
Oh my - yes, that's the very definition of cake-eating. And the fact he can even suggest it when you believe he's probably been to a solicitor and knows full well what yours and his rights and responsibilities are suggests he's flailing a bit with facing up to the reality of the situation.
Is there a time-limit on these discussions? I can imagine nothing much productive is happening as he seems to want some of the financial benefits of being married without an actual married, or any of the responsibilities - and you, quite rightly, aren't going to let that happen. That seems intractable, so perhaps it's better to stop the conversations and start some healthy action.
I'm sorry you're having a hard week. It just keeps on coming, doesn't it? I hope the CBT is helpful to you and helps you get unstuck from the tunnels you're in.
I haven't commented much on your thread, but I do read and keep up with how you are doing. I'm sorry you're feeling stuck in the never-ending tunnels. It really s*cks. Hopefully your IC will help you find direction moving forward instead of recounting your childhood and things from the past. The cake-eating is not fair to you, and at this point in your path I'm even a little peeved at his requests. Stick to your guns and protect your assets. You can do this and I'm cheering for you.
KG
LBW 32 - me WW 31 T 7 M 4 No Kids 4 dogs
Separated 1y Navigating the mine field and GAL with or without
One thing that always impresses me about you is your ability to stand firmly even when you are in the tunnels. You don't let it affect your outward decisions, and you are keenly aware of what you are giving vs getting in any set of negotiations. You are always advocating for what is fair: no more, no less. This does not cease to impress me.
The feeling of being in those tunnels is all-encompassing and I'm so sorry you are currently in them. If there was a magic word to pull you out I would. Instead, I will let Time gently guide you out.
I suppose one thing that kind of irked me about H's proposition is that he is focused on "reducing your outgoings" as a way to even things out. Without any kind of formal arrangement I don't see how your expendatures have anything to do with him whatsoever. That's your business, not his. Your responses about needing the flexibility (fair! who is he to dictate where you live for YEARS to come?) and child support being 50-50 were spot on. I'm so glad you can isolate what is important in this.
With each posting it feels more and more like your sitch is maybe coming to a head. I just want to remind you again that the "other side" will be so sweet to you. The lack of limbo is a lovely way to be. It's a journey to get there, but I don't want you to fear it. I truly hope that after pushing through you get the most wonderful sense of relief.
