Sorry and sad to report this, but I have a... situation. Maybe something, maybe... well, not maybe nothing. It's definitely something. The question is, how serious a something is it, how seriously do I need to take it, and how aggressively do i need to respond to it?
This most definitely involves the WW syndrome and recovery from and potential relapsing to that state by a wife. I need input on this from the WW experts, particularly the invaluable insights of Sandi2 and artista if they are still out there. If either of y'all are listening, or for anyone else who has picked up that baton, let me know and i will explain in greater detail.
My previous story and timeline left off at the following thread (16 of 16) for any who want to catch up...
In a nutshell, my W, while I was at fraternity reunion out of town for the night last weekend, met up with her very wayward BFF and a couple of other girls... with my knowledge. They had dinner and drinks... also that i knew about.
Trouble started when I tried calling her once i hit my out of town destination. Straight to VM... which meant either she was on another call, the phone was off, or the phone was out of signal range of any tower (the latter extremely unlikely dead smack in the middle of a major metro area). I called back several times over the next 30-45 minutes, but her phone still went straight to VM. This would not have troubled me hardly at all... except for the fact that she was out with her BFF (who now lives in Florida but this weekend was visiting in our neck of the woods) and my WW being "off the grid" and unreachable whilst out with her BFF had been one of the disturbing hallmarks of the depths of her former WW lifestyle and her affair she carried on for several months. This raised some uncomfortable memories for me... but still no alarms. Yet.
For grins, because I was curious where she was, i ran her phone through the family tracker we all have in my family and have for past two years. NADA. Phone is completely unreachable/unfindable. I hadn't done this in over a year.. almost wish i hadn't
My phone runs out of juice while i am out with my friends, and is down for approximately an hour. When i return to hotel and plug it in, i get a series of backed up phone messages from her. Numerous: "Where are you... I miss you.. thinking of you" etc etc. Not unusual for us to send these types of texts these days... but this was a LOT of them. I send her a short text asking where she'd been...was her phone was off(?) and i get a really long text back how she missed me making it a point to tell me how she'd been telling her three friends how much she missed me, how good and helpful our marriage counseling had been, how it was now better than the honeymoon.... all of which raised alarm bells with me. It was the kind of thing she would do before in the bad old days when she knew she'd done something wrong and was trying to compensate. She followed it up with a racy picture of herself.
I am fairly curt by text this entire time... to me, her being out with bff and being unreachable is disrespectful of our history and situation, at a minimum. She continues with the frequent obsequious texts through the following morning... we have a date scheduled the following evening, but i am evasive about my plans and my return-- my own bff (her bff's ex) is having a tough time and wants to get together for dinner, so i indicate i may do so and start our date a little later than planned). When I do return, she is very touch, lovey, etc., very affectionate, and our date goes very well... as our dates have been going for months on end... during which time i have seen nothing to raise red flags, seen no signs of disrespect from her, nothing but affection and "how thankful and lucky she is, etc. etc." I ask her about her evening and she just reiterates they went out for dinner and drinks at a well known spot at a local mall, they talked alot and caught up on things. She apologizes somewhat circuitously about being "out of touch".. says she wasn't sure why her phone didn't ring since "it was definitely on", though never says anything about how that might have made me feel under the circumstances... And i decide to let it slide... don't even tell her it brought up spectres of the past and her wayward days with her bff and AP (who themselves were friends).
Flash forward to tonight. Working on back to school stuff with my son, and he says "Hey Dad, wanna see something that will really creep you out"? "Okay, I say"... and he proceeds to show me the location history on the google account on his phone that has tracked his every move for the past two years he's had the phone. "Yikes!" I feign horror, though i already knew of this feature. At any rate, after he leaves a few minutes later, i am staring at my own gmail screen, and i notice that my wife's email is still there in the drop down, logged on. On a whim, I open her account and look at her location history... which she never bothered to turn off. Long story short, that night i was out of town, after dinner with her GFs, she went to the bar that had been the chief hangout of her AP and one of the main locations where they had had meet ups... which her bff had been instrumental in orchestrating and concealing. Now, the AP/OM has moved several states away... I know this for a fact and I have kept periodic tabs on the predatory SOB-- he's still there. Not that i dont think he could have come back here for a day or two (he still has family and friends locally), but his current residence is about 700 miles away... and rumor is he had a falling out with that particular bar owner anyway. Also, wouldn't surprise me if her bff and one of the other GFs wanted to go there for whatever reason as it is or was one of their neighborhood hangouts. So, plenty of reason the visit could have been innocent... IF MY WIFE HAD JUST TOLD ME... WHICH SHE DIDNT (and the way she described the evening intentionally excluded it any mention of it, and i made sure to ask in roundabout fashion at least three or four times when we were talking about it last week.) FWIW, if she HAD told me she wanted to go there, I would not have objected ... that's how good things have been between us.(I have even brought up the two of us going there sometime, as i had very much enjoyed the food and atmosphere at that place before she and my friend... the OM... stabbed me in the back)
Also, the google location records indicate she was there at that building with the OM's old bar, which is also an apartment building, from 11 PM until 10 AM the next morning... but there are ambiguities (primarily that it doesn't show her return to our house, but just places her there at home the following day... so she really could have returned at any time-- the exact time being unclear but from the timing of her texts and such she had to have been there at least an hour.
It surprises me how calm i am about this. Disappointed, even pissed off, yes... but... i am even picturing her having an overnight liaison with OM... and I am fine. We'd be done, of course, but I am amazingly in control of my emotions here. What particularly troubles me is not that I think she actually had some sort of meet up-- I think it much more likely that bff and others and maybe even her wanted to go... and maybe she even just gave them a ride over, IDK... but that she didn't want to tell me for whatever reason. And i find that very, very,, very troubling from the standpoint of respect, and empathy, and of her being a recovering WW. The way she smooched up to me after she had been out of touch that evening was the first time i have had any warning bells go off in over a year since we had our BIg Moment Reset and I walked awayfor a week and a half.. and i should have listened to the warning bells. Oh well...
So i need to address this. very aggressively, I think. Calmly, but aggressively. PArticulalry seeking input from Sandi2 and artista, here...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Easy to see the alarm bells here and good to see that you have considered the innocent options. If you assume the worst you know it could do serious damage to your recovery. Calm is good, aggressive sounds dangerous. Conscientiously might be a better mindset. Hope this helps.
Now divorced, boys grown up. Now in new failed relationship( never again, please )
Hj, good to hear from you despite the circumstances.
Sandi is still here. Haven't seen a post from Arista in a while. My initial thought is to have you go back and read that. Objectively. Pretend like you are someone else reading HJ's post. Tell me if you get the same impression as me: HJ's gut is telling him one thing, but his mind is trying to "rationalize" it away.
The thing that stood out to me was the "if she had said she wanted to go there I would not have objected". Then why did she hide it?
I'll defer to Sandi in this one. I'm not sure you need to take any action. The deception is troubling considering the past, but likely it was just her having a "single ladies" night out with the horrible influence of the BFF. Thank goodness her visits are few and far between.
Last edited by Steve85; 08/12/1909:58 AM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Heeeeey! I was just thinking about you and your W yesterday, and wishing we could hear from you. I didn't want any troubling news, but I'm really glad you decided to come talk about this update before allowing it to fester.
I'm really wanting to give your W the benefit of doubt on this one. We know her BFF is rotten and the worst influence for your W. I think she went alone with whatever the group wanted, and she knew you would probably have lots of questions if you knew they went to the old hangout. Do I think BFF chose that bar on purpose? I don't put it past her one bit.
I want to believe your W started feeling a bit uncomfortable for going there, and she started sending the texts.
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When i return to hotel and plug it in, i get a series of backed up phone messages from her. Numerous: "Where are you... I miss you.. thinking of you" etc etc. Not unusual for us to send these types of texts these days... but this was a LOT of them.
Did the time on her text messages match the time your phone was down, or during the period you couldn't reach her? .
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I send her a short text asking where she'd been...was her phone was off(?) and i get a really long text back how she missed me making it a point to tell me how she'd been telling her three friends how much she missed me, how good and helpful our marriage counseling had been, how it was now better than the honeymoon.... all of which raised alarm bells with me. It was the kind of thing she would do before in the bad old days when she knew she'd done something wrong and was trying to compensate. She followed it up with a racy picture of herself.
You ask one question and she never addresses it? Yes, I have to say it looks as if she was trying to avoid it. Perhaps she thought what you didn't know--wouldn't hurt you..........knowing how you feel about BFF arranging for her to meet OM at the bar in the past (or maybe it was another bar). Anyway, being a recovering WW, it was not wise to avoid your direct question. She should know by now that you will immediately pick up on how she skirts around it.
I could even see BFF arranging to "surprise" your W, by having OM at the bar (if he just happen to be in town)........and BFF thinking it would be funny. Twisted, but funny. However, your W didn't have to stay, since she had her own car and could leave any time. We could imagine all sorts of scenarios, but that doesn't help.
It does seem a bit overkill.......as if she wants to distract you from asking her more questions. What about the sexy photo? Did that surprise you, or is that the norm these past months?
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I ask her about her evening and she just reiterates they went out for dinner and drinks at a well known spot at a local mall, they talked alot and caught up on things.
You were hoping she would tell you they went to the old hangout, without you asking. I could see her wanting to avoid all of it, but I don't understand the deal with her phone........unless she didn't want you picking up on the background noise.
My suggestion is to ask her to give you a direct answer on which bar they went to that night. The longer you hold on to this, the more it will eat at you.
How long has it been since last session with MC?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
It just doesn't add up and I think you are right to be suspicious. My suggestion would be to tell her you think her behavior is odd, explain to her why you think it's odd, and ask her if something happened that she is trying to hide. I would also confront her about the tracking info that shows she went somewhere she didn't tell you about. Put all the cards on the table and give her a chance to explain. Set a boundary- no more turning the phone off, period. Don't let her lie her way out, hold her accountable.
I'm really wanting to give your W the benefit of doubt on this one. We know her BFF is rotten and the worst influence for your W. I think she went alone with whatever the group wanted, and she knew you would probably have lots of questions if you knew they went to the old hangout.
Hey Sandi! Thanks so much for stopping by my thread! I still stop by myself from time to time and try to throw out the odd nugget by way of "paying it forward", but somehow I never feel quite right about it. Despite my W and i sharing literally everything now (or at least so i had thought), for a number of reasons i feel that this place and the experiences I had here are something I shouldn't necessarily share... and keeping that hidden runs counter to everything I thought (and that our counselor has continually taught us) a healthy marriage should be about. So, much as I like y'all and much as I'd like to help more... I just feel funny about it. I still am trying to find a way to get more engaged out here in the non-cyber world, hopefully through the church helping couples in troubled marriages.
At any rate, yes, part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt, here, too... Things have literally been great for us, better than they have ever been-- we are extremely affectionate, we laugh and joke and flirt constantly and talk frankly about everything, have frequent dates, and are always making plans for the future, never fight and she never shows me any disrespect-- and I have had no alarm bells or anything until now. But at the same time... I can't think of anything she could have done short of contacting OM or engaging in another affair that would have shaken my trust in her as seriously as this episode has.She KNOWS the relationship/dynamic with her and bff going out is an unpleasant one for me. Just in May we had a lengthy conversation about it as she was preparing to go visit bff for a weekend. She asked why I hadnt been very talkative and had been quiet whenever she brought up the trip. I told her, truthfully, that I had no reason not to trust her now, that i had faith in our relationship and didn't think she was going to stray while with bff but, at the same time, that there was still relatively recent history there and that, for me, her being together and going out with bff, and especially having a girls weekend with bff, raised those painful memories back up with me. Her response to that was "Well then i shouldn't go, how can I go after you told me that?" And my response to her at that point was: "This is a relationship you want to maintain, and even though I don't trust her, I trust you... The bad memories I have of that time and the associated pain are something that is going to take time to heal, and is just going to be part the continual healing of our own relationship... but there's nothing you are doing "wrong" or that would make me distrust you at this point that is causing those feelings to be there. Its just going to take time. Go, and have fun." So she went... but she is or should still be very aware of my feelings on the subject. FWIW, she also saw bff the weekend prior to this current incident (bff is in town for a couple of weeks to visit family and to hand off her kids to her ex, my own bff) and she kept in constant touch by text and told me everywhere she went. (And, after I found out what i found out last night i went back and checked her location the previous weekend, and for the visit to florida in May, and everything was just as she said.) So she knows this relationship and that dynamic still raise painful memories for me, and in similar situations the past few months she has gone out of her way to let me know where she is and what she's doing (and, yes, to flirt and such)... Until now.. and then she goes overboard for what is normal for us now, which was always a sign in the past that she'd messed up.
So, yeah... why not tell me now (and, as i have said, she and i have openly discussed going back to that bar together, and she has to know it is a strong possibility that we will do so in the future and also that i don't have any particular hesitation or hang up about the bar in a vacuum)? The fact that she was acting like she did and that she hasn't told me tells me she knows she did something she shouldn't have... I just... argh! We have had it hammered into us over and over and over how important openness and honesty and trust is, and she KNOWS that this (bff/OM/that whole dynamic) is the biggest potential trust issue that we still have!
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Did the time on her text messages match the time your phone was down, or during the period you couldn't reach her?
Here's the timeline:
5:30 pm-- she leaves work 5:35pm-- she texts me (I am driving) 5:37-5:42--several texts exchanged with bff 5:55 pm -- arrrives at restaurant at mall (google location shows her at mall until 10:25) 6:44-6:49-- I send her two texts, responding to her and telling her i've arrived and telling her I'd call in a sec after checking in (didn't know she was going out straight from work, though i admittedly hadn't asked). 6:50-- I call her and phone goes straight to VM 6:51-- I text her again, letting her know i tried to call but she was going straight to VM 6:55--Up in room, i start thinking and run a family tracker... but her phone is not locatable. 8:00-- I call again but straight to VM 10:25--Google shows her leaving Mall 10:26--T Mobile phone log shows her receiving my texts at this time (so her phone WAS off or out of signal range), as well as a picture text from bff and two picture texts from one of the other girls 10:26-- log shows her sending first of several texts to me, though i do not receive it immediately. 10:25-10:42, -- she drives to a strip mall nearby and stops for 15 minutes, during which time she makes a three minute call to our son 10:57-- she drives to OM's old bar, arriving at approx 11:15 [GOOGLE LOCATION SHOWS HER AT THAT LOCATION AND THEN NEXT THING SHE IS HOME AT 10:17 NEXT MORNING, BUT NOTHING IN BETWEEN] Approx 11:00-- my phone dies-- not sure exactly when as i stopped looking at it 11:13-11:17-- sends me a series of "Whatcha doing, I miss you" texts 11:50-- she sends me two more texts"where are you, I miss you type things" 12:45-- Two more texts to me 12:50-- I plug my phone into friends car lighter and get a little power but nothing downloads before i have to unplug 1:35-1:40 four more texts to me (Note that i don't know for sure what order the texts were sent in, but they clearly arrived in my inbox out of time order. 1:46-- I get to hotel and plug in and receive all the above texts from her. I reply "What happened to you?" 1:48-- Her: "Nothing, i texted you and got no response" 1:52-- Me to her: "Your phone was off" BIG GAP 5:51 AM-- Text to me: "So weird my phone never rang and ringer is turned up, did you get all my texts" 5:53 AM-- Text to her friend with whom she used to work (the girl moved out of state two months ago) and in whom she had previously confided when I walked out on her last year and she was desperate for help 9:27 AM-- Me in response-- "You must have been in no signal zone then, where'd ya go? 10:08AM-- Her to me "Met the girls at _________ (bar at mall) after work. Really missed talking to and hugging you. Almost called a couple times but didn't want to be that girl who calls during guy time. [Lotta other chitter chatter, very long text, including the stuff about talking to the other girls about how good our marriage is now and how good therapy was and its better than ever etc etc etc.]"
That's pretty much it. She sent my numerous flirty bitmojis and texts after that, and talking about our upcoming date, but i was fairly curt in reply. She was super dolled up when i got back, very affectionate.
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It does seem a bit overkill.......as if she wants to distract you from asking her more questions. What about the sexy photo? Did that surprise you, or is that the norm these past months?
Like I said, things have been very affectionate and flirty between us. We banter and cuddle and hold hands alot, even in front of the kids (which elicits groans and eye-rolls). That said, things have been a bit cooler the past couple of months, at least sexually: I injured my shoulder playing basketball and she had to go off of her BC pills because they were interacting with one of her other meds and making her sick, so we haven't been able to be quite as spontaneous (she even had a brief pregnancy "scare")... but we have still been as affectionate with each other. I would say the texting and constant day to day contact and banter has tailed off SOMEWHAT from the honeymoon-period peak... enough so that I noticed the significant ramp up after this past weekend's incident. I let her initiate the text exchanges on probably close to a 2-1 ratio, though i am still attentive and irascable and flirty and suggestive with her-- pursuit and distance, lol.
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You ask one question and she never addresses it? Yes, I have to say it looks as if she was trying to avoid it. Perhaps she thought what you didn't know--wouldn't hurt you..........knowing how you feel about BFF arranging for her to meet OM at the bar in the past (or maybe it was another bar). Anyway, being a recovering WW, it was not wise to avoid your direct question. She should know by now that you will immediately pick up on how she skirts around it.
Yeah, she should have known. And she should know better. Sandi, isn't there a real risk here of her "getting a thrill" out of being sneaky and bad with bff again and rekindling the wayward mindset? She has always been a bit of stubborn, rebellious sort to begin with, even as that is at odds with her "good girl" Catholic upbringing. I really feel like she needs a good sharp rap on the knuckles with a ruler or something, here, to remind her...
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My suggestion is to ask her to give you a direct answer on which bar they went to that night. The longer you hold on to this, the more it will eat at you.
How long has it been since last session with MC?
My inclination is to approach it one of two ways: 1) "Listen, W, is there anything else you want to tell me about the girls night out last Saturday night, where yall went and what you did?" or 2) (More direct) "When were you planning on tell me y'all went to Patriot's Saturday night?" I can see merit to either approach. 1 seems more passive aggressive and less assertive, while 2 seems possible to put her on the defensive. Then again, I DID say i think she needs a rap across the knuckles (or on the rump, lol). But, yeah... it is significant to me, and i don't think i can just let it slide-- it's important to me and I don't want it to fester AND i honestly worry a bit about a WW relapse, particularly with some of the things artista related a while back.
As to MC, we haven't had a full blown session in probably 9-10 , months, though we are a member of the MCs private FB group, where she does live podcasts and Q&As and we read her blog posts regularly. MC has actually checked in with us three or four times now asking how we are doing and if we wanted to come in. I have brought it up with W twice in the wake of these outreaches and W has demurred, most recently in June, saying "What is there to discuss? Are there any problems?"... and I really had to agree... things were great. I couldn't think of any marital issues we would discuss with MC. Like i said i still have lingering resentment towards bff and anytime they go out-- not a regular occurrence with bff in florida-- it still evokes painful memories in me but, other than that, OUR relationship is and has been great, and, until this Iweekend, I had nearly 100% trust in her. We are going to the beach in September for our anniversary, which is also where MC has her practice, and i had thought to suggest we take her to lunch or something just to say hi and say "thanks", but we have no sessions on the horizon. Maybe this would be reason to schedule one?
Thanks again Sandi! Glad you are still around!
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Also, Sandi, fwiw, the racy photo she sent me late night that night was NOT a current one of her that evening... it was a stock one she had on her phone she had taken previously and that she keeps in a photo album titled "for hoosjim"... so that pic is not evidence of her "being at home" at the time...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Sandi, please see my above (and probably over-long) response/post on this as well.
I feel the need to reiterate, here, that this is a really big issue for me, and the more and more i think about this, the more it disgusts me. I'm sure she's going to think/say that it's no big deal, that she didn't do anything, etc etc etc. But...Really? I mean... really? My trust in her-- so hard to rebuild and over so many months-- has now again been significantly damaged... significantly... and I see this as a meaningful setback.
Not sure what she could possibly say that is going to justify this or make me feel differently, and I am an analytical guy who can likely come up with more scenarios/possibilities than the regular Joe (as those who have noted my tendency to rationalize and defend her actions in the past would attest to.)
Not sure I should talk to her about this tonight, because I am likely to be less level headed than i should be... but going to have to soon as we have our annual family vacation coming up starting Wed night... (and why the hell does she always seem to pull this crap right before some sort of family event/vacay/function.
Ah, well... All y'all's further thoughts on this and what i initially responded to Sandi with are, as always, warmly appreciated.
Here's hoping I remain one of the forum's happy endings...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Jim, did you see my response? I think maybe you missed it after Sandi's. I wouldn't let this fester. It clearly bugs the crap out of you and that is reason enough for you to confront her about it.
