Awaiting Actions (LB55 #5)

[LB55]

A new thread to keep on trucking through this crap.

Quick recap:

I was deployed for a year, W filed for D in December 2018, finally got temp orders in early april 2019, nothing has happened to progress this D in any way since then.
Working on my communication skills, being the best dad I can be, and letting go of my W.

Waiting on W to move forward with D or start showing some actions that show she is willing to work on improving our communications(the first step in my opinion to anything that could lead to eventual R). To date there is little but words of blame and fault; and the only action is to point fingers at everyone else for her problems.

Old Thread

[LB55]

I am supposed to go to the house on Sunday and start going through our items and separating them/moving my items back to my new place(this was ordered by the court in April and we agreed we would work out the schedule to do it). She has cancelled this a few times in the past; always due to 'my behavior' and so forth. I've not said or done anything that in my opinion was out of line. She has her feelings and that is fine. We have only had electronic communication for a while now at her request, and I am hesitant to start phone or in person communication again because I haven't seen anything change in her written communication. From the middle of a lengthy email exchange where I asked to get my stuff from the house again:

W: Quite frankly I am afraid to be in the same house as you. I am going to have my parents come over and supervise.
H: I hear that you are afraid to be in the same house. I am not sure I am comfortable with that either, so this is good news. Sounds like a good plan.
W: Saying "I am glad that you are still afraid of me" is clearly threatening and intimidating me and I will tell my lawyer.

I replied that twisting of words has been a constant issue in our marriage, and I need to see less of that going forward. Basically got back that 'you can't tell me what to do'.

Not the words nor actions of someone that wants to work on communication.

Now she wants to have a phone call to discuss Sunday because clearly we aren't communicating well via email. This is likely how she will determine that 'it wont work because of your recent behavior' and cancel on me again. She won't discuss a settlement until the household goods are dealt with. I don't really want to go back to court and force her to leave the home while I do this because it is worth more less than the cost of the attorneys. The stalling really annoys me; I read a lot about dealing with difficult people and that lead me to narcissistic women in divorce...says that they always stall like this, keeps them in control, blame others, hide behind the court and the lawyers(this one rings very true to me) in order to avoid being responsible for anything. (It wasn't her choice to file for divorce, i made her do it; it wasn't her choice to restrain me, the judge did it; its not her choice that I only see the kids 4 days a month, the judge did it; we should just follow the court orders, unless its not convenient for her, etc) Then when the court makes a decision (for or against) they have someone to point a finger at so there is no responsibility. Lots of other stuff too, that just stood out to me at my current moment.

Normally if I was going to have a phone conference about something I would ask for an agenda to make sure I'm prepared to discuss the items that needs to be addressed. Should I ask her for an agenda for her desired phone call? I don't want to be unprepared so she can steamroll me, yet I don't want to appear to be needy and controlling either. Which is the right approach in the opinion of the group?

[Ready2Change]

W: Quite frankly I am afraid to be in the same house as you. I am going to have my parents come over and supervise.
H: I hear that you are afraid to be in the same house. I am not sure I am comfortable with that either, so this is good news. Sounds like a good idea.

And maybe H" I want us both to feel safe."


W: Saying "I am glad that you are still afraid of me" is clearly threatening and intimidating me and I will tell my lawyer.
H:"Feel free to share this email string with your lawyer."

Normally if I was going to have a phone conference about something I would ask for an agenda to make sure I'm prepared to discuss the items that needs to be addressed. Should I ask her for an agenda for her desired phone call? I don't want to be unprepared so she can steamroll me, yet I don't want to appear to be needy and controlling either. Which is the right approach in the opinion of the group?

I do not trust your W. Remember getting off the plane to meet her. She is evil. Get a time set. Bring some witnesses.

Record with your phone if needed.

H:"I have been thinking about what you recommended the other day and I think it is a good idea that we have a couple people making sure things go as quickly and smoothly as possible. I will be bringing my sister (or other non-threatening female)"

[LB55]

W: Quite frankly I am afraid to be in the same house as you. I am going to have my parents come over and supervise.
H: I hear that you are afraid to be in the same house. I am not sure I am comfortable with that either, so this is good news. Sounds like a good idea.

And maybe H" I want us both to feel safe."


W: Saying "I am glad that you are still afraid of me" is clearly threatening and intimidating me and I will tell my lawyer.
H:"Feel free to share this email string with your lawyer."

Normally if I was going to have a phone conference about something I would ask for an agenda to make sure I'm prepared to discuss the items that needs to be addressed. Should I ask her for an agenda for her desired phone call? I don't want to be unprepared so she can steamroll me, yet I don't want to appear to be needy and controlling either. Which is the right approach in the opinion of the group?

I do not trust your W. Remember getting off the plane to meet her. She is evil. Get a time set. Bring some witnesses.

Record with your phone if needed.

H:"I have been thinking about what you recommended the other day and I think it is a good idea that we have a couple people making sure things go as quickly and smoothly as possible. I will be bringing my sister (or other non-threatening female)"

Thanks, I still need to work on being more concise and to the point.

I don't trust her either brother. I plan to use my phone to be a witness. I am betting she won't have her parents over as she was just trying to get in an argument about it when I just agreed it was good news that they were coming over she didn't know what to do with it. Doesn't make a difference either way to me. I will have my phone well charged.

I suspect she wants to discuss the kids being there for us going through things, which I have already set a firm boundary of they will not be there as it isn't good for the kids to see. She doesn't see it that way and thinks they will be fine watching and helping us divide our stuff. I intend to get a time, find out who will be there, and how long we are going to do it for. I am prepped to leave anytime something starts to get contentious.

[unchien]

LB55 - I know validation is the standard advice but I would consider making it clear you do not feel like you are unsafe or your W has anything to fear.

You know about my sitch from a few weeks back (and helped me a ton!) My new general rule is validate unless it is something possibly legally problematic in which case I don’t validate.

W: I am worried about your safety around the kids.
Old me: I hear you feel I am unsafe, and that worries you.
New me: I do not believe I am an unsafe parent.

I think same goes for your W’s fears. Of course be cool and calm but... at the time I was also thinking about recording conversations etc and thought “why am I validating this stuff and then gathering evidence it is not true... seems easier to just not agree with it calmly.” It’s worked for me so far and I’m a lot less worried.

[MLCxH]

I am inclined to agree with unichen here. Validation is a good tool when you are trying to R. In your case your WAS is a long way away from R. If I were you I would be wary of her using your words against you and portraying them as something different from what you meant by taking them out of context given your WAS's history

[LB55]

U and MLC, I totally agree. She is a long way from R and I’m very wary of her intentions.
She wanted to talk on the phone tonight. She never called. I’m not sweating it. I’m sure it will be my fault.

Haha. Cool. I’ve been blamed for everything under the sun anyway.

Validation of her feelings is just that...her feelings. Not mine. She feels how she feels. Keeping comms in writing helps to keep her honest.

[IronWill]

I agree with unchien and ML.

If its legally problematic - validation can come back and bite you in the ass. Validate as much as you can - but keep your boundaries in place and watch your [censored] especially if Ls are involved.

I would also find a way to say that you will be keeping communications the way they are. You dont have to call her anyway - that's something she wants, not you.

My W does not communicate verbally save for a few words per week, even though we are still IHS. Text/email only.

In a way it is good because I can edit what I'm going to say before I send it. I have reduced the clutter of my words, often writing out a whole thing then chopping away at it until its concise, straightforward and businesslike.

I feel for ya, brother. This is a weird place we are all in.

[LB55]

So just had a 2 hour phone call with W. She mostly vented a bunch about all the stuff I’ve written about before. Nothing changed there, just listened and validated her feelings.

She did talk about herself and some changes she has made regarding eliminating negative people, doing things she wants and taking care of herself first. All stuff you’d read in most any self help book out there. She talked about our communication issues and a desire to improve how we talk to each other. A lot of what she said are things I’ve been working on for myself too. She claims she is fully healed and ready to move forward in life. I’m skeptical to say the least. I’ve seen very little action from her outside of playing the victim and just generally being rude towards me. All in all a productive conversation, she did agree I can ask for more 3 day weekends to spend with the kids and that I can have Labor Day weekend with them too. She expressed desires to restore her relationship with my sister too, how much she misses her but doesn’t think it can happen. I just validated and left the door open; I’ll talk with my sister and see if she is amenable to that. I did tell W that we need to make a lot more progress in trusting each other before I can endorse her having any relations with my family.

The initial point of the conversation was to discuss getting my things from the house, initially we were going to do it together, now she wants to not be there but have her dad there to supervise me going through stuff. I told her I’d have to think about it. On one hand it’s an opportunity to get it done(there is nothing there is really ‘need’ right now), on the other hand she is trying to remove her responsibility in getting it done and I feel like I should hold her feet to the fire.

Additionally, she told me she would like to start having a weekly dinner as a family. I would really like that as well. I told her as such. No need to hold my hand close to the vest on that one. I’ve wanted that for a long time.

This is the big ticket item though...she asked me what my goal going forward is in regard to her and I. Where I see it going. I told her I need time to think about it and will resume the topic at a later time. She was ok with that. Her words say she wants a divorce still. Her actions say she is unsure what she wants. My ultimate goal would be to R with her and restore our family under a new and improved marriage. That will likely overwhelm her though so I’m not sure what to say. I did tell her a short term goal is continued communication improvement. Might be a bit vague but she agreed to work on receiving things better and I agreed to the same. Small manageable chunks is what I can do. I want her to know my goal is to iron things out and work on a new romantic relationship with her. She even laughed at a joke today and said she missed my humor...I told her I missed her laughing too...it was nice. Small steps.

Tomorrow she might be back to cold calculating WW but for today she was a bit better. The conversation ended well and I got off the phone before it could go off the rails.

Do I tell her my goal for the relationship? She likely already knows I’d prefer to get back together. Don’t want to state something she already knows but don’t want to be unclear on my intentions either. I think I’m gonna go visit my work bud and see what he thinks. He’s never met my W. He’s been through this divorce process twice and has some good perspective to keep me from doing dumb things.

Lastly I appreciate all of your thoughts and advice. Thank you!

[unchien]

LB. - sorry to make this short but I won’t have time to respond more until Tuesday.

I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to state what you want if asked point blank. Don’t assume she knows. Also don’t beg and plead or be overly wordy. “My goal is to build a new marriage with you if that is possible.” I don’t know... maybe others would disagree. If you can be cool and confident and handle any reaction... isn’t that the point where the training wheels can start to come off?

I might be wrong here though. Not sure about the above but it’s how I start to view things in my personal sitch as well. All along I thought my W knew what I wanted and at BD time she thought I wanted a D. She really did.

Maybe it’s common for us to get comfortable after awhile and start thinking we can go against DB protocol. Hope the vets can help here.

[IronWill]

So just had a 2 hour phone call with W.

That's a good thing. Generally people dont talk to you for 2 hours if they don't want you in their lives. She might be starting to miss things a bit.

Tomorrow she might be back to cold calculating WW but for today she was a bit better. The conversation ended well and I got off the phone before it could go off the rails.

Take the win. Tomorrow is another day. I think as long as these up and down periods continue, we have to live in that moment. I'm glad the conversation went well for you. I call these "mini-thaws". Just watch out for the potential body slam on the other side. Hopefully it doesnt come this time.

Do I tell her my goal for the relationship? She likely already knows I’d prefer to get back together. Don’t want to state something she already knows but don’t want to be unclear on my intentions either.

This I would wait on if it were me. You've been through a lot. Like you said, small steps. I would need to see a sustained period of improved interactions over time before I start thinking about peeking over the wall.

Stay strong, man

[Ready2Change]

She doesn't feel safe around you and wants to have weekly family dinners???

These do not add up. Do not play with fire.

DO NOT TELL HER YOUR GOAL for R.

[unchien]

My W also wants family dinners in our schedule (originally she said weekly, now less often)... I wonder if it’s a way to feel safe by observing directly how you interact with the kids. I don’t get it either. We had one so far and they are awkward...

[LB55]

Your concern is valid R2C. Ordinarily I’d never tell her my goals for R(goes against every rule in the book); however when she asked me what my goals about our future were I feel she deserves an answer. I know her well enough to know this question won’t just disappear off the face of the planet.

These were her words to me on this “ultimately we need to have the conversation about goals before we embark on this new journey; we need to know that before we start spending time together as a family”

My NGS would tell me to wait forever and see if she tells me her goals first so I can align with those to make her happy. That won’t get me what I want nor will it make me happy. I may crash and burn; I already don’t have a marriage outside of a piece of paper so what is there to lose?

I told her I would have to think about it. She gave me time to do that. I can’t think forever or I just look indecisive, weak, and unable to make a decision. She has practically begged me to be more decisive in the past; my NGS would always kick in and default to “I don’t know” followed by never telling her what I wanted or “whatever you want” most times. I figure I’ve got a week or two to mull this over.

I clarified the scared to be around me thing yesterday too. She is not scared of me physically or of being around me...it is more a matter of uncertainty about how it would go. Her brain works overtime creating crazy scenarios that never actually happen. How the conversation would go. Would we be able to talk without poking each other about past hurts? Would we be able to walk away if needed? That kind of stuff.

We have agreed to talk more on the phone as we move forward. The voice inflection is necessary for both of us to help with intent of the message. I’ll just record the conversation to back me up legally.

I also told her after deliberating yesterday that I won’t be meeting her dad to divide our household stuff today. It is our mess to clean up, we need to work together to do that, and using him to avoid dealing with our issues isn’t going to work for me. He isn’t comfortable with it and neither am I. I gave her a couple proposals for how we could do it. We I’ll see how she responds.

[LB55]

My W also wants family dinners in our schedule (originally she said weekly, now less often)... I wonder if it’s a way to feel safe by observing directly how you interact with the kids. I don’t get it either. We had one so far and they are awkward...

I don’t know what her motivation is; she brought it up and I’m adult enough to know this is more time I get to see the kids and it is most definitely not time to work on any of the issues with W. It can be fun and not awkward as long as that mindset is kept in my head.

This was very out of the blue, but also very much thought out. She didn’t hint around it or try to get me to figure out what she wanted, just came out and said it. “I would like to start having dinner as a family” we’re the words spoken. Not I think it’s best for the kids, or perhaps sometime we could maybe do something if I feel like it, or any other wishy-washy stuff. I’m taking it at face value. If you read long ago in my sitch I said one of my goals was to have a family meal again. This is the opportunity to meet that goal.

Probably won’t happen for a month or so because I’ve got a 10 day fishing trip planned and a few other things. My weeknights are fairly full and so I’ve got to make time for this without dropping everyone and everything else because that is the wrong answer.

Also breaking news...I scored VIP tickets to the blue angels today in Seattle like 30 mins ago...and it’s W weekend with the kids...she is letting me take S11!! I’m so happy right now, almost have tears because spending the day just me and him doesn’t ever get to happen.

[Tryhard]

Why are you wondering about her motives? You can never know and probably she won’t know exactly. Use it as a chance to show how great you are . Suggest you go for “family “ meals out .

[LB55]

Why are you wondering about her motives? You can never know and probably she won’t know exactly. Use it as a chance to show how great you are . Suggest you go for “family “ meals out .

I’m not wondering about her motives. I can see how my Statement could be taken that way. Unchien had wondered whether our W was using it to evaluate how we interact with the kids. I simply said I didn’t know why she was proposing it; I’m gonna run with it though because it was a decisive thing for her and not beating around the bush.

I definitely agree with going out to dinner; I think that’s what she wants as well. I’m just gonna do it when it happens and be a fun and engaging dad for the kids. It’s. Is not a show for her even though I am fully aware she’s paying attention.

[unchien]

I love seeing my kids at our “family” dinners. Nothing is strained but it is just really awkward interacting with my W. More time with my kids so I’m also okay for now.

[LB55]

As I read my thoughts from above I can see how thinking along those lines is possibly a temp check to keep me on the line as plan B. If I tell her My goal is to rebuild the marriage from scratch, she knows I’ll be around as long as needed; essentially stuck under her thumb. If I don’t tell her what I want, then I’m back to being a NGS dude that doesn’t tell others his wants and needs and is angry because I never get what I want. We haven’t been the best communicators; what if she is just waiting for me to be the alpha and tell her what I want? It’s quite tricky sometimes to navigate this minefield. I could talk myself in circles for hours on this topic. Risk and reward...nothing risked yields nothing in return. I’ll let this play out for a while and see if she shows any further signs of interest.

My goal has wavered at times but I’m still committed to a rebuild attempt. This is like a wildfire that destroyed my whole home and property. There were plenty of issues I didn’t like about my home, things I couldn’t change about it, and things I’d like to change about the home. It’s now in ashes and I’m sad. I remember all the good times, the holiday dinners, and the pictures that were lost. I have a couple choices here...decide the risk of wildfire is too much to deal with and sell my land and move somewhere safer, or rebuild exactly how I want it and keep the property safer in the future by doing regular maintenance on the grounds and home. Everywhere has risks, there is no safe place to live with 100% certainty of outcome. Very much like marriage...I could quit and push the D through, move on to someone new, and have plenty of risk; just different risks from a different person. I could really enjoy my new place or despise it shortly after moving there. Or I could rebuild myself and potentially my marriage the right way with the known risks while taking precautions and doing the upkeep that a marriage requires. Choices in life are hard. Right now I’m choosing to work on myself and be ready to rebuild if that opportunity is presented. Today...I stand for my marriage and my W. Tomorrow...well that will be for tomorrow. Sometimes my analogies only make sense to me.

The advice is to let her pursue, hold her feet to the fire for her actions, show true remorse, beg me to come back, etc. I’m actively re-reading DR now that I’m seeing myself in a different light and not in a deep dark hole. It discusses not missing the small signs of change. I’ve seen a few just in the past couple days in her attitude towards me and in our communications. Letting me take my son today on her day was a big positive and I thanked her in person for that. Doesn’t mean squat for our relationship; it means the world to me and S11. It was the first non-selfish behavior I’ve seen From her in this whole situation. Previously if I had asked for today it would have been “no we have plans” and I’d find out they spent the day on the tablets at home or “yes he can go but you need to give up a weekend to make up for me not getting my required time with them.” The tit for tat behavior was missing this time. It was nice.

I’m going to keep reading throughout the week and see what I glean from it.

[Vapo]

LB,

your W is all over the place and I am deeply concerned about her motives.In my view she just wants to know that you are on a leash and so she jerks the leash every now and then. I would be hard pressed to imagine myself ever being with such a person. She just sounds evil and vindictive. And you are still flogging yourself way too hard regarding the issues from the past.

[Ready2Change]

Family dinners:

Wait until she brings it up again.


W:"Bla bla bla bla family dinners bla bla bla bla"
H:"Next time I take the kids out, you are free to join us"

W:"Bla bla bla bla every tuesday bla bla bla bla"
H:"I will think about that.

W:"Bla bla bla bla bla"
H:"I understand you feel that way. "




If she invites you during her parenting time, then you can accept the first one, the third one, the sixth one. Make sure you decline some. Then make the decision based off of DO I WANT TO and IS THIS THE BEST CHOICE AT THIS POINT IN THE PROCESS.

[Ready2Change]

I’m so happy right now, almost have tears because spending the day just me and him doesn’t ever get to happen.

I understand. Enjoy. Be in the moment with him. Burn every part into your permanent memory.

[IronWill]

LB - to be honest it sounds like YOU need space and time to figure this out.

As far as telling her what your "goals" are, I wouldn't get deep into anything at all about your true goals, especially if it's a temp check. Yes we all want to see improvement, that's the LBS way, but tread extremely carefully.

Maybe saying something generic and abstract like I have short term goal to concentrate my energy and focus on family time etc...? If you decide to tell her at all.

[ovrrnbw]

Do I tell her my goal for the relationship? She likely already knows I’d prefer to get back together. Don’t want to state something she already knows but don’t want to be unclear on my intentions either. I think I’m gonna go visit my work bud and see what he thinks. He’s never met my W. He’s been through this divorce process twice and has some good perspective to keep me from doing dumb things.

IMO, you do not tell her this. She's put you through a lot.

And what makes you think that she knows this already?

She gave me time to do that. I can’t think forever or I just look indecisive, weak, and unable to make a decision.

How can she give you what is yours to take? She may have wanted an answer right then and there, but I guarantee she's changed her mind on it several times since then. No answer is an answer in and of itself. Plus, even if she were beating the door down tomorrow, you'd need a lot of consistency before you could believe anything.

How the conversation would go. Would we be able to talk without poking each other about past hurts? Would we be able to walk away if needed? That kind of stuff.

Sounds like she is totally healed.

If I don’t tell her what I want, then I’m back to being a NGS dude that doesn’t tell others his wants and needs and is angry because I never get what I want.

Do you believe, in this case, that asking for what you want will get you what you want? It's not NGS to protect yourself either. You know your situation best.

[LB55]

Family dinners:

Wait until she brings it up again.

If she invites you during her parenting time, then you can accept the first one, the third one, the sixth one. Make sure you decline some. Then make the decision based off of DO I WANT TO and IS THIS THE BEST CHOICE AT THIS POINT IN THE PROCESS.

Definitely intended to let her initiate them. I need to see that if it is something she wants, that she is committed to putting in the effort to discuss it and help plan it. I've told her I want it and that won't change; however it doesn't bear repeating again and again though. If she wants it she will ask about it.

I have plenty of outs that are legit to ensure I don't accept each and every invite all the time. At this point I have the kids every other weekend, and one negotiable night per week. If we start some sort of dinner plan, at this point what I would want is every other week on a weeknight evening, probably Wednesday. I still get my night with the kids in addition; family time doesn't replace dad time. This would give me every other weekend, 1 night each week (M-Th) of dad time, and one night(M-Th) every other week of family dinner.

[LB55]

LB - to be honest it sounds like YOU need space and time to figure this out.

As far as telling her what your "goals" are, I wouldn't get deep into anything at all about your true goals, especially if it's a temp check. Yes we all want to see improvement, that's the LBS way, but tread extremely carefully.

Maybe saying something generic and abstract like I have short term goal to concentrate my energy and focus on family time etc...? If you decide to tell her at all.

You are correct in a way. I know what I want. I need time and space to figure out a plan to get what I want. I have the time and space. I can't force her to come back; the only part of this I know is I am working on the potholes in the road back home. Those are my issues to resolve.

As far as goals, I have mine and they are in my head. I told her my goal is improved communications between us in the short term. We both agreed that email is a tough medium with emotions and will call when we need to discuss something. No ghost calling, if we call, we leave a voicemail describing what we are calling about. We will see if its sustainable. I talked with her for 2 hours on Saturday on the phone as described above; additionally for a few minutes sunday morning to work out the deal to spend the day with S11, and for about 10 minutes in the driveway when bringing him home last night. So I'm taking that as a good start to meeting that goal. I still need to define how it will be met, or possibly refine it to be able to objectively be able to meet the goal.

When we were talking last night, she surprised me; she reached out and grabbed my shoulder and held on for a second. I almost instinctively withdrew as first; it was odd. It wasn't the kind of flirty touch that shows romantic interest, but it was not unfriendly either. I wasn't sure if she was going to hug me; her body motions were very close to that as she reached for me; I almost reached out under her outstretched arm and embraced her and gave her a big hug but I refrained; it was such a natural movement from our past. Such an odd thing right now. I also refrained from telling her she looked nice(she really did), or any of the other pursuit stuff.

I decided im going to find some cologne I like this week. That's a personal goal for me to accomplish.

[LB55]

Do I tell her my goal for the relationship? She likely already knows I'd prefer to get back together. Don't want to state something she already knows but don't want to be unclear on my intentions either. I think I'm gonna go visit my work bud and see what he thinks. He's never met my W. He's been through this divorce process twice and has some good perspective to keep me from doing dumb things.

IMO, you do not tell her this. She's put you through a lot.

And what makes you think that she knows this already?

I've told her that while I disagree with divorce being the solution to our problems, I won't stand in her way. She has told me more than once that she knows I don't believe in divorce but she doesn't see any other way right now.

She gave me time to do that. I can't think forever or I just look indecisive, weak, and unable to make a decision.

How can she give you what is yours to take? She may have wanted an answer right then and there, but I guarantee she's changed her mind on it several times since then. No answer is an answer in and of itself. Plus, even if she were beating the door down tomorrow, you'd need a lot of consistency before you could believe anything.

That is possible. I think I look indecisive if I wait for her to ask about it again. Point taken; I have to take the time I need in this. Agree on the consistency piece. Lots more needed in that department.

How the conversation would go. Would we be able to talk without poking each other about past hurts? Would we be able to walk away if needed? That kind of stuff.

Sounds like she is totally healed.

Thus my very skeptical comment above. I'm able to see this and I think that is a good thing. She has a long ways to go. I think part of this is she stopped going to IC because her IC 'took the summer off'. If she thinks she is good to go, then why go anymore. I will wait to see if she restarts or not here in a month.

If I don't tell her what I want, then I'm back to being a NGS dude that doesn't tell others his wants and needs and is angry because I never get what I want.

Do you believe, in this case, that asking for what you want will get you what you want? It's not NGS to protect yourself either. You know your situation best.

This is an area that I struggle with. I'm re-reading DR and the NMMNG books this week. I honestly don't know if it would get me what I want. Its a decision I have to make and consequnces I have to be ready to accept if I choose to tell her my goal of re-building our marriage from the ground up. Perhaps I need to break down my really big goal into smaller more obtainable goals to help me here. Hmm.

[Tryhard]

Just remember that these things take time , there will be lots of wavering on both sides . One day at a time and do the right thing as best you can each time . One bit of good advice that I can give is if and when you go out for a meal you are looking your best confident, engage with the kids and people around you . In my opinion women are more tuned into the social side of things . Being the happy man that everyone likes is great . Obviously don’t overdo any of this , but get the focus away from her in yourself. If she sees you checking her reaction each time it will backfire. Along with R2C’s advice . Boom ( in a little way)

[LB55]

Just remember that these things take time , there will be lots of wavering on both sides . One day at a time and do the right thing as best you can each time . One bit of good advice that I can give is if and when you go out for a meal you are looking your best confident, engage with the kids and people around you . In my opinion women are more tuned into the social side of things . Being the happy man that everyone likes is great . Obviously don’t overdo any of this , but get the focus away from her in yourself. If she sees you checking her reaction each time it will backfire. Along with R2C’s advice . Boom ( in a little way)

This is a good reminder and helps me keep perspective. Thank you!

I'm totally on board with the looking nice and being confident. I've got a new wardrobe for the most part. I've been practicing being engaging and positive with the servers when I have been going out with friends or by myself. If it happens its for the kids; I know she will be watching but I won't be focusing on her or her reactions to things.

[IronWill]

LB - to be honest it sounds like YOU need space and time to figure this out.

As far as telling her what your "goals" are, I wouldn't get deep into anything at all about your true goals, especially if it's a temp check. Yes we all want to see improvement, that's the LBS way, but tread extremely carefully.

Maybe saying something generic and abstract like I have short term goal to concentrate my energy and focus on family time etc...? If you decide to tell her at all.

You are correct in a way. I know what I want. I need time and space to figure out a plan to get what I want. I have the time and space. I can't force her to come back; the only part of this I know is I am working on the potholes in the road back home. Those are my issues to resolve.

I feel very much the same way you do. I also know what I want. In my case, however,there is no way I am telling W that right now. She is far from being ready for those discussions.

What do you think you would you say? Might be helpful to mull over a few things that would be "safe" to tell her without "giving away the farm" and retaining your air of mystery.

As far as goals, I have mine and they are in my head. I told her my goal is improved communications between us in the short term. We both agreed that email is a tough medium with emotions and will call when we need to discuss something. No ghost calling, if we call, we leave a voicemail describing what we are calling about. We will see if its sustainable. I talked with her for 2 hours on Saturday on the phone as described above; additionally for a few minutes sunday morning to work out the deal to spend the day with S11, and for about 10 minutes in the driveway when bringing him home last night. So I'm taking that as a good start to meeting that goal. I still need to define how it will be met, or possibly refine it to be able to objectively be able to meet the goal.

Yeah email is not easy. My W is solely text message- nothing verbal at all. I have to re-read everything I write, trying to hear it in whatever tone she is assigning to it (which is practically impossible).

You cant go wrong with saying you want improved communications. that's my main goal as well.

When we were talking last night, she surprised me; she reached out and grabbed my shoulder and held on for a second. I almost instinctively withdrew as first; it was odd. It wasn't the kind of flirty touch that shows romantic interest, but it was not unfriendly either. I wasn't sure if she was going to hug me; her body motions were very close to that as she reached for me; I almost reached out under her outstretched arm and embraced her and gave her a big hug but I refrained; it was such a natural movement from our past. Such an odd thing right now. I also refrained from telling her she looked nice(she really did), or any of the other pursuit stuff.

Isn't it strange when the "nice" person we once knew makes a reappearance? Maybe your distance has begun to take effect a little bit, or maybe it's just a cameo appearance. These things are definitely not easy.

Someone told me once - way before any of this [censored] went down - that "they'll never learn to miss you until they go away". That person had been talking about teenagers going away to college, but I think it applies here too.

At any rate - my advice would be to take it very slow, and remember you've got the control here.

[LB55]

Yeah email is not easy. My W is solely text message- nothing verbal at all. I have to re-read everything I write, trying to hear it in whatever tone she is assigning to it (which is practically impossible).

You cant go wrong with saying you want improved communications. that's my main goal as well.

She says im too direct and demanding via email and she doesn't respond well to it. She uses email to make demands as well, its much easier to hide behind a computer screen for those unreasonable things. Speaking in person is an easy change for me because I've wanted to do that since the beginning. She didn't, and I didn't push the issue. She knew how I felt but is warming to the idea.

When we speak in person we are much more reasonable and for me anyway, im able to hear her much better without forming my own opinions on her statements. I'm hopeful that we can keep this going, it is healthy either way for us to be able to communicate.

The bold part reminds me of the movie heartbreak ridge when Clint Eastwood keeps coming out in a different colored t-shirt each day and the platoon can't figure out how to match him in order to not have to run.

[LB55]

Isn't it strange when the "nice" person we once knew makes a reappearance? Maybe your distance has begun to take effect a little bit, or maybe it's just a cameo appearance. These things are definitely not easy.

Someone told me once - way before any of this [censored] went down - that "they'll never learn to miss you until they go away". That person had been talking about teenagers going away to college, but I think it applies here too.

At any rate - my advice would be to take it very slow, and remember you've got the control here.

It's very tough for me to evaluate this. She didn't leave exactly, I was deployed and restrained from returning home. This isn't a normal situation of one spouse moving out and then realizing that home is better than some crappy apt. I'm the one in the crappy apt and she has the nice home. Nothing has changed for her outside of 'her problems have left the house'. It's something I struggle with daily; is it possible to miss me when life I so comfortable right now??

I'm definitely taking it slow. Its been almost 8 months since she filed for D. We haven't even split up our household items yet. I've thought about pushing the timeline and forcing her hand. I think she needs to feel in control even if she isn't. I don't know if that is the right answer, but forcing her hand with other things hasn't worked yet so I'm not doing it anymore. It just leads to both of us being stressed out and angry.

[IronWill]

When we speak in person we are much more reasonable and for me anyway, im able to hear her much better without forming my own opinions on her statements. I'm hopeful that we can keep this going, it is healthy either way for us to be able to communicate.

The bold part reminds me of the movie heartbreak ridge when Clint Eastwood keeps coming out in a different colored t-shirt each day and the platoon can't figure out how to match him in order to not have to run.

Oh definitely, I agree. One of my goals is to try and reestablish verbal communication (Yes that's how bad it is right now).
I have difficulty reading the context of a message on a good day. She has completely withdrawn into the internet world, and has assigned me the role of "bad person". It is so bizarre, so alien, so completely against her character from the first 18 yrs I knew her.

In order to have any sort of communication I have had to completely alter the way I respond. Out of curiosity...Did you have any success with electronic comms? Anything would help.

It's very tough for me to evaluate this. She didn't leave exactly, I was deployed and restrained from returning home. This isn't a normal situation of one spouse moving out and then realizing that home is better than some crappy apt. I'm the one in the crappy apt and she has the nice home. Nothing has changed for her outside of 'her problems have left the house'. It's something I struggle with daily; is it possible to miss me when life I so comfortable right now??

I'm definitely taking it slow. Its been almost 8 months since she filed for D. We haven't even split up our household items yet. I've thought about pushing the timeline and forcing her hand. I think she needs to feel in control even if she isn't. I don't know if that is the right answer, but forcing her hand with other things hasn't worked yet so I'm not doing it anymore. It just leads to both of us being stressed out and angry.

Yeah that really [censored], man. I can't relate bc I was single when I was deployed, but it was so nice to finally get home and have a place to go to after 7 months. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

I'm in a weird position too - we are still in the same house but she has shut down. The house is no longer a safe space. My GAL has helped but sometimes you just want to veg in your own space. The loss of comfort there is a big one - and it's such a small house that detachment and space are hard to give unless I spend all day away. I have done it - ive made it so that we are ships passing occasionally by reverting to my Navy kind of living from 2 decades ago but it's not easy.

As far as pushing timelines- on my end that has failed miserably. So I've also stopped, same as you. I'm currently reevaluating how to.proceed with this. Having 2 separate plans for 2 separate outcomes and trying to align them without going batshit crazy lol.

[AnotherStander]

W: Quite frankly I am afraid to be in the same house as you. I am going to have my parents come over and supervise.
H: I hear that you are afraid to be in the same house. I am not sure I am comfortable with that either, so this is good news. Sounds like a good plan.
W: Saying "I am glad that you are still afraid of me" is clearly threatening and intimidating me and I will tell my lawyer.

Hey LB, I just wanted to repost the above as a reminder that you need to keep your guard WAY up with her. This was only 4 days ago, and now you're talking about having a relationship talk and telling her your goal is to recon and you're getting excited about touches on the shoulder? Read the above again, I try not to call people crazy, but all of her behavior throughout your time here has really made me feel like she has some serious mental issues. She flips back and forth from being extremely mean and vindictive to being polite and accommodating. Hell the whole BD never really made any sense for that matter. At a minimum you can't trust her, but deeper than that I think you should be a little afraid of her. Why do I say that? Because when you are afraid of someone you stay on high alert and you take precautions around them, such as having a 3rd party around whenever you are around each other. Just be very careful what you say to her, both in email and in person. Always be mindful of how she might twist it to use against you. I would communicate with her as little as humanly possible until the legal side of this is resolved. I know it's tempting when she throws you a bone, but right now the most important thing is to protect yourself.

[LB55]

When we speak in person we are much more reasonable and for me anyway, im able to hear her much better without forming my own opinions on her statements. I'm hopeful that we can keep this going, it is healthy either way for us to be able to communicate.

The bold part reminds me of the movie heartbreak ridge when Clint Eastwood keeps coming out in a different colored t-shirt each day and the platoon can't figure out how to match him in order to not have to run.

Oh definitely, I agree. One of my goals is to try and reestablish verbal communication (Yes that's how bad it is right now).
I have difficulty reading the context of a message on a good day. She has completely withdrawn into the internet world, and has assigned me the role of "bad person". It is so bizarre, so alien, so completely against her character from the first 18 yrs I knew her.

In order to have any sort of communication I have had to completely alter the way I respond. Out of curiosity...Did you have any success with electronic comms? Anything would help.

I have had middling success in electronic communications. As long as she is still angry I don't think they can be successful but when they are angry everything will be misinterpreted and turned around to fit the narrative. I had a successful email yesterday strictly about business and days needing to change for me having the kids based on work. I backed it up with a phone call later in the evening to make sure we were on the same page. You've said that isn't possible right now; keep it in your toolbox of ideas for later. Similar for text message, although we don't text too much. Its mostly about business too, although she has occasionally opened up about past hurts via text; this was tough for me because I really wanted to hide behind the text and shoot hurtful things back instead of listening and hearing what she has to say.

It's very tough for me to evaluate this. She didn't leave exactly, I was deployed and restrained from returning home. This isn't a normal situation of one spouse moving out and then realizing that home is better than some crappy apt. I'm the one in the crappy apt and she has the nice home. Nothing has changed for her outside of 'her problems have left the house'. It's something I struggle with daily; is it possible to miss me when life I so comfortable right now??

I'm definitely taking it slow. Its been almost 8 months since she filed for D. We haven't even split up our household items yet. I've thought about pushing the timeline and forcing her hand. I think she needs to feel in control even if she isn't. I don't know if that is the right answer, but forcing her hand with other things hasn't worked yet so I'm not doing it anymore. It just leads to both of us being stressed out and angry.

Yeah that really [censored], man. I can't relate bc I was single when I was deployed, but it was so nice to finally get home and have a place to go to after 7 months. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

I'm in a weird position too - we are still in the same house but she has shut down. The house is no longer a safe space. My GAL has helped but sometimes you just want to veg in your own space. The loss of comfort there is a big one - and it's such a small house that detachment and space are hard to give unless I spend all day away. I have done it - ive made it so that we are ships passing occasionally by reverting to my Navy kind of living from 2 decades ago but it's not easy.

As far as pushing timelines- on my end that has failed miserably. So I've also stopped, same as you. I'm currently reevaluating how to.proceed with this. Having 2 separate plans for 2 separate outcomes and trying to align them without going batshit crazy lol.

It does stink, but its just the way it is. If we are separated we want to be in the same house because it might work better; if we are IHS, we want our own place. Grass is always greener.

I'm sorry she has shut down on you, that must be really tough to deal with on a daily basis. I totally understand reverting to living on the ship...13 years of sea duty...I lived on the ship for the whole year I was gone...man that gets tough. Why do you allow her to make you uncomfortable in your own home? If you think back to your ship time...if your peer walked into the berthing lounge and told you to get up so they could take your seat on the couch, would you have done that? Set up shop and relax how you want to. If she doesn't like it she can go somewhere else.

Yeah the pushing timelines really didn't work at all. She would really dig in her heels everytime i tried. I used to have 7 different plans for 18 different options and try to plan out how everything would work depending on which scenario played out. Makes me super prepared for anything. Also makes me one controlling SOB. I've stopped this behavior of trying to plan for multiple outcomes for the most part. Live in the moment more. Its helping me to let go of the outcomes a little bit.

[LB55]

Hey LB, I just wanted to repost the above as a reminder that you need to keep your guard WAY up with her. This was only 4 days ago, and now you're talking about having a relationship talk and telling her your goal is to recon and you're getting excited about touches on the shoulder? Read the above again, I try not to call people crazy, but all of her behavior throughout your time here has really made me feel like she has some serious mental issues. She flips back and forth from being extremely mean and vindictive to being polite and accommodating. Hell the whole BD never really made any sense for that matter. At a minimum you can't trust her, but deeper than that I think you should be a little afraid of her. Why do I say that? Because when you are afraid of someone you stay on high alert and you take precautions around them, such as having a 3rd party around whenever you are around each other. Just be very careful what you say to her, both in email and in person. Always be mindful of how she might twist it to use against you. I would communicate with her as little as humanly possible until the legal side of this is resolved. I know it's tempting when she throws you a bone, but right now the most important thing is to protect yourself.

Thanks AS; I hear your concern for how it is going. The crazy up and down nature of this does not lead me to believe anything is better or starting jumping into any sort of R scenario. I can see a path to R and one to D. Either is ok, R is what i'd want. I am being very wary of things and my guard is way up. It may not reflect in my writings, but I look out for myself as best as I know how. You will know I've let my guard down when I stop posting here about things that have happened. Mostly I just use this as a way to document things that happen, feelings I have, provide some encouragement when i can, and to get feedback. That was what I did with the shoulder comment...just documenting that it was weird and it happened. Please don't read that as me getting excited; definitely not how I meant to convey that.

As far as the legal side of things, we may eventually wind up D, we may not, but I'm not going to push it through for her. It's not what i want and she knows that. I'm just saving money right now by not doing things, and my L has all the pertinent info if W decides to start pushing an aggressive settlement or threatening to go to court if I don't agree. I use my phone to record things and I follow up phone call agreements with an electronic message to document that she agrees with what we talked about.

Posting things here prevents me from being dumb 99% of the time. It helps to just write it out and whether anyone else replies or not I go back and read it a day or two later to provide myself a perspective to try and maintain an even keel. If i was flying high two days ago and now I'm sinking, it helps me realize that the ebb and flow is normal and they will get better again; vice versa applies too. It gets me thinking about how she could view things I think and that is a good thing.

She doesn't have my trust in any way, I keep looking for traps. Its a tough way to live and I am trying to be safe while giving her some benefit of the doubt as communications improve just a bit. Trust is a two way street and for her to start to trust me I must start to trust her as well. I can start the trust cycle even while being wary. A long ways to go in this marathon though.

[unchien]

My thoughts on communications:

- Assume any and all comms are being documented. Especially anything in writing (text, e-mail, letters). Calls may be recorded for quality assurance purposes =)
- Assume anything you say will be twisted and distorted. Do not get upset or triggered by this. You have no control over it.
- Text message is the single worst form of communication. Any type of communication that requires a back-and-forth exchange should be done over e-mail or voice.

I also think it is wise to keep a journal. Facts only. Dates, times, events, what was said, what was done. Unfortunately I am guilty of dropping the ball on this myself the last few weeks. I need to get back on it.

When I feel like communicating something to my wife via text or e-mail:

- STOP. Don't take the bait. Don't let the trigger start a chain reaction.
- Understand that I tend to be overly wordy, give explanations, justify, defend, etc.
- Think about what the vets at DB forums would say.
- Think about what is true to my own values.
- Breathe.
- Calm down.
- Wait an arbitrary amount of time.
- NOW... craft a response.
- Take that response, and cut out 90% of the words. Remove anything that involves reasoning, logic, explaining, etc.
- Re-read response, loop back to step #2 above. Repeat loop 3 times.
- Add a simple "Hi W" to make it sound more friendly.
- Hit SEND.

Our MC had some good points about why text communication is so awful:

- On the screen it looks like a back-and-forth conversation. In reality, often both parties are typing furiously responding to something said 3 texts prior.
- No ability to read facial expressions or gestures.
- No ability to hear inflection of voice or tone.
- Mind-reading takes over.
- There tends to be no conversation, it often becomes 2 parties spouting their POV into an empty void and the other party not listening.

Think about listening and validating... it works because you maintain eye contact, have a calm demeanor, etc. None of those things are possible over text. So easy to assume the worst about the other person.

[LB55]

So I went to the house last night to collect some things we agreed upon, skis, fishing equipment, some more camping stuff, boat items(ropes, bumpers, etc). Mission accomplished, I got what I came for.

No talk about anything other than separation of stuff and I said thanks and goodnight and left.

I noted that she had a box of pictures in the basement that were all pictures of us. So at least they haven't been destroyed. Thought it was quite odd that two of them were wrapped in Christmas wrapping paper with my name on them. I know one is our wedding picture and one is a charcoal sketch we had done of the two of us in Victoria in 2004(both are easily identified by the shape and size of the frame). She either was or is planning to give them to me as a gift for Christmas. I'm actually laughing at the absurdity of that right now! What a joke. Everything they do is just crazy.

Going fishing next week with my parents and my kids. Should be an enjoyable week out at the ocean; hopeful for a nice time and a full freezer!

[Ready2Change]

Mission accomplished,

glad to hear.

Going fishing next week with my parents and my kids. Should be an enjoyable week out at the ocean; hopeful for a nice time and a full freezer!

I am jealous...Catch and eat one for me!

[LB55]

Quick update since its been a few weeks.(I told AS a while back that when I stop posting is when there are problems)

Fishing trip wasn't so successful, only got 2 fish, but the kids and I had a good time. Kids are with my family this week and having a nice time going to the fair and the waterslides.

No progress on the situation with W. I did have a conversation with my L briefly where she wanted to put pressure on W to get moving by doing a bunch of work(read: I need to bill some hours) and I said no I would like any proposals for settlement to come from W and her attorney. This is her choice to D and she can do the work and pay the bills. I'm not convinced that W is willing to push this through. I'm still willing to work on the MR with W but not until I see some legit actions on her part that show me that she is too. She is nowhere close right now. My will to work on things is fading a bit each day though. I look forward to the future more each day as well.

[unchien]

Great to see an update from you LB55. If fishing was easy they would call it catching.

Good job keeping the wolves (L) at bay.

I don't have much else to say other than that. I feel a kinship with you with some of the antics you have had to deal with and it really helps me to read your story. Keep posting and hang in there.

[LB55]

Been a few weeks, nothing much changed. Kids and I went to the zoo and a football game this weekend. We had a great time, then it’s time for them to go back and it always makes me sad. They tell me about life with mom and it’s miserable. She is on her phone from the moment she gets up until bedtime. She doesn’t nothing with them because she is too busy all the time. D8 told me this weekend “mom is always too busy for us. It really [censored].”

She has been omitting me from all things the kids are involved in and then the kids tell me about them afterwards. I finally called her on it for being a poor co-parent and excluding me. It was quite stern in tone and called her on a few things she’s said recently. Friday I get a text saying she needs me to get out of the truck and talk to her when I pick up the kids. Said she wanted to apologize. I declined as I didn’t feel like talking to her as she would just turn it around on me and blame me for why she isn’t communicating the kids events to me. Today I get a flurry of texts with baseball schedules, school events, my daughter is in a play next month, the school calendar, etc. I had none of that info before. I’m glad to have it so I can plan to go to things now.

Off to bed, another busy work week ahead. I hope this cycle of exhaustion ends when I transfer to a new command next fall. I’ve got to be aging faster than ever before in my life. Burning the candle at both ends trying to hold life together.

[IronWill]

Kids and I went to the zoo and a football game this weekend. We had a great time...

That's awesome, LB - making memories with the kids is what makes it all worthwhile. Glad to hear

Today I get a flurry of texts with baseball schedules, school events, my daughter is in a play next month, the school calendar, etc. I had none of that info before. I’m glad to have it so I can plan to go to things now.

Boundary set and established - good news!

Off to bed, another busy work week ahead. I hope this cycle of exhaustion ends when I transfer to a new command next fall. I’ve got to be aging faster than ever before in my life. Burning the candle at both ends trying to hold life together.

I feel you on the aging thing, one hundred percent. I had to bow out for a week and get away. Now that I'm back I realize how burnt I really was and I get why they tell you to focus on your health.

Good to see an update from you, LB - I really appreciate the insight you've given me, hopefully I can return the favor again one day
Take care man

[LB55]

Hey IW, hope you're doing well, I have been trying to get caught up on the various situations but haven't made it to yours yet.

It was quite frustrating to be left out of the kids events; she was choosing to not inform me so she didn't have to deal with me being there. I am just documenting all of this and it will be a nice long list when she finally decides to finish this divorce. All of her poor co-parenting practices will go right into my argument for a 50/50 agreement.

The aging thing has to be a thing. I mean I am 40 this week; I still get carded for beer so I look kind of young. But all this stress and stuff has to take its toll on a person. Not going to get any easier for me for at least a year, maybe two depending on what the military has in store for me.

I'm glad that you've taken something positive from me and my situation, we are all here to help.

[MLCxH]

The aging thing has to be a thing. I mean I am 40 this week; I still get carded for beer so I look kind of young. But all this stress and stuff has to take its toll on a person. Not going to get any easier for me for at least a year, maybe two depending on what the military has in store for me.

Eat well, workout, get sleep....take care of yourself. When I went through the D, working out was my outlet. Even when I went for a short cardio session, I could see the difference between going into the workout and coming out of it. When the stress level is so high, every little thing I did made a difference.

Take care of yourself consciously and know that in due time you will be happy again. As they say the dawn is most beautiful after the darkest of nights!

[IronWill]

Hey IW, hope you're doing well, I have been trying to get caught up on the various situations but haven't made it to yours yet.

No worries. Not much of note happening in my sit - still IHS, W still communicates very little. She's pulled back from the D and selling house talk, said we are both "going to be here for a while", which was the first inkling of any kind of second thoughts on her part. Mind you this is after 6 months of intense DBing on my part but I'm grateful for the break.

It was quite frustrating to be left out of the kids events; she was choosing to not inform me so she didn't have to deal with me being there. I am just documenting all of this and it will be a nice long list when she finally decides to finish this divorce. All of her poor co-parenting practices will go right into my argument for a 50/50 agreement.

I'm sorry you had to go through all that crap, man. But I am glad you know what the kids' schedules will be now.

Its messed up - WASs have zero logic.- I had no clue what was going on w my nephews till my SIL found out my W wasn't telling me. So SIL took initiative, bypassed W, and started informing me directly.

Document for legal reasons but don't forget - leave her to her own mess. I know its difficult not to get pulled in when the kids tell you what's going on - but try to remember that's her drama, not yours.

The aging thing has to be a thing. I mean I am 40 this week; I still get carded for beer so I look kind of young. But all this stress and stuff has to take its toll on a person. Not going to get any easier for me for at least a year, maybe two depending on what the military has in store for me.

As a side note - Happy birthday!!

40 was 6 years ago for me - so I get where you're coming from. The military adds years too, I know that from experience. Hopefully your next command is an easier one. West coast even - less stress than the east.

If it helps, know you're not alone. Bags under my eyes and grey hairs are increasing rapidly the past year. Not much we can do about it but try to keep a PMA and know this will be over one day. And know that age is just a number

I'm glad that you've taken something positive from me and my situation, we are all here to help.

Thanks - the advice you gave to "let her be happy" changed a lot of the way I view things. Very grateful for that.

Take care man

[ovrrnbw]

If you think you are aging, might I suggest some eye cream and maybe a spa day with your coworkers??!?!

Anyways your update looks good. It [censored] that you don't think giving her a chance to apologize is even worth the time, but you're probably right.

[LB55]

If you think you are aging, might I suggest some eye cream and maybe a spa day with your coworkers??!?!

Anyways your update looks good. It [censored] that you don't think giving her a chance to apologize is even worth the time, but you're probably right.

I will give her a chance to apologize eventually. I told her as such. I called her out for her poor behavior and in the 10 minutes I walk from work to my car she decided she wanted to apologize. Her wording was 'when you pick up the kids you need to get out of your truck and listen to my apology'. Quite aggressive for someone looking to apologize in my opinion. I wasn't ready to listen to any apology at that time and told her I wasn't ready to listen but would let her know when I am ready to hear her out.

I need to do a better job of holding her feet to the fire on things and not accepting a cheap and quick apology for something I deem egregious like leaving me out of the kids lives intentionally is a good start in that direction for me.

No eye cream or spa day though...never been to the spa...maybe I should go :-)

[ovrrnbw]

Her wording was 'when you pick up the kids you need to get out of your truck and listen to my apology'.

Hahahaha! Seriously?! I would have lol'd at that and done the same as you.

Enjoy your spa day my friend!

[LB55]

A couple more weeks down, not much to report. Had the kids this weekend, its our agreement for me to pick them up on Friday and her to pick them up on sunday. For the past two visits she has asked me to drop the kids off, and I told her no she can pick them up according to plan. She did. Tired of hearing how it will be more convenient for me to drop them off. Will keep holding her to that one.

Today is my 13th anniversary. That stinks.

I am fighting myself on writing her a message to say goodbye. I don't want to give her an ultimatum. This needs to move forward though. I understand she is hurting and is indecisive and something happened in October last year to trigger all of this. However I cannot continue to live this way. I wrote a long message last night before bed that said this and that I loved her but she needed to figure things out for herself. I asked if we could set up some time to start working on a settlement agreement. I didn't send the message. I slept well though.

I have enough experience to know that writing messages won't fix anything, so I am coming here to post that and get it off my chest.

[Ready2Change]

Do this:

H:"W, I thought about your request. I believe you are right. It makes more sense that we drop the kids off at the other parents house. Lets start that right away by you dropping the kids off Friday and I will drop them off Sunday"


It is much better than waiting around at your X's house, or vise vs.


Good choice on not sending the "goodbye message".

[ovrrnbw]

Words of wisdom: Don't. Press. Send.

Other than that I understand your frustrations. Just sit tight for the time being. Take advantage of this separation to have some fun.

[LB55]

Yes I’m glad I didn’t send anything. It helped to write it out though.

I would have her drop them off but my get off work time isn’t consistent. Picking them up maximizes my time with them. She simply wants me to put in effort and expense to transport. Previously until about 2 months ago I did all the driving. I finally had enough and asked her to help and she has to this point. She told me that she thought I liked being in control and that’s why she didn’t offer to help. Blah blah blah. Anyway I’ve got a football game to referee so I’ll check in later.

Thanks all for what you do for me and everyone else here.

[IronWill]

Hey LB -

Good to see an update from you.

I agree - don't press send. I keep a written journal for all the times I feel like ending it. Its felt that way this past weekend and yesterday, I've gone through the same cycle as you. Thankfully the feeling passed - had I written and sent something I would have immediately regretted it today. I'm glad I didn't.

Take care, man - stay strong

[LB55]

I go through this cycle every now and again. I have never wanted to get divorced. Yet I am struggling to see a future for myself if I don't push this to finality. I guess I am in limbo land for a while longer.

I am having a tough time with this because this is what she wants yet she isn't moving forward with it either. Seems to be quite comfortable living in our nice house with me paying her way. Not sure what shoe will drop to get this moving in either direction. It feels like one of those 'she is waiting for me to do it and I am waiting for her to do it' scenarios.

I keep wondering if she is stalling to save up money so she can surprise me with more expensive lawsuits and more fighting to take away the kids. She seems to get joy out of my misery and sorrow. I am avoiding contact with her outside of a text about the kids at all cost.

Frustrating if nothing else.

[IronWill]

I go through this cycle every now and again. I have never wanted to get divorced. Yet I am struggling to see a future for myself if I don't push this to finality. I guess I am in limbo land for a while longer.

This really resonates, LB. The thing I've come to realize is that I am doing all the things I can to push into the future, and I am working hard toward the same goals I had before all this started. It has taken much longer than I originally planned, but I am more able to focus on them now. The only thing that has changed is that W may not be there now. Which is so odd because before, she was all in on these goals, and in some cases these goals were her idea...(!)

I am having a tough time with this because this is what she wants yet she isn't moving forward with it either. Seems to be quite comfortable living in our nice house with me paying her way. Not sure what shoe will drop to get this moving in either direction. It feels like one of those 'she is waiting for me to do it and I am waiting for her to do it' scenarios.

I think if its MLC, it might seem like they are comfortable on the outside, but they are a tornado of chaos on the inside. Following many attempts on my part to understand where W was coming from before I found DB, I had a front row seat to W's mental state through a dozen different arguments/fights/discussions - and it was remarkable to me how all over the map she was/is compared to who she was before.

I keep telling myself like a mantra - have empathy. She is going through something. I don't understand it and neither does she right now.

Some days I succeed in remembering this, others not so much. Part of the battle, I guess.

I keep wondering if she is stalling to save up money so she can surprise me with more expensive lawsuits and more fighting to take away the kids. She seems to get joy out of my misery and sorrow. I am avoiding contact with her outside of a text about the kids at all cost.

Frustrating if nothing else.

This is really frustrating, man. We want to know, but we cannot. Only we know when we've had enough, or if we are willing to keep standing. Keep GALing - try not to focus on what she's doing or why. That will lead nowhere.

Take care, man - stay strong!

[unchien]

I go through this cycle every now and again. I have never wanted to get divorced. Yet I am struggling to see a future for myself if I don't push this to finality. I guess I am in limbo land for a while longer.

I am having a tough time with this because this is what she wants yet she isn't moving forward with it either. Seems to be quite comfortable living in our nice house with me paying her way. Not sure what shoe will drop to get this moving in either direction. It feels like one of those 'she is waiting for me to do it and I am waiting for her to do it' scenarios.

I keep wondering if she is stalling to save up money so she can surprise me with more expensive lawsuits and more fighting to take away the kids. She seems to get joy out of my misery and sorrow. I am avoiding contact with her outside of a text about the kids at all cost.

Frustrating if nothing else.

LB - What has pushed my situation out of limbo land is that financially we are spending into our joint savings and it shocked her.. As long as you are paying your W's way, I would guess your situation is likely to remain in limbo.

Regarding your fear about lawsuits and fighting for the kids... face your fear. It may well happen. So forget about the fear. What do you want? Do you want 50/50? If not, why? It's okay to not want 50/50. Are you willing to go to court? You may face slander and a difficult trial. Be ready emotionally for it. Do not let your fear factor into your decision. You are a good father, you deserve to advocate on your behalf for what you think is fair, regardless of how strongly your W may react.

Staying in limbo is okay as long as you continue to DB and make personal progress and be prepared for any future. You may eventually reach the point where you prefer to move out of limbo, and that can be a decision you choose to make (rather than waiting for your W). Only you can decide on your timeline.

[IronWill]

Just a side note - i think the decision to move out of limbo, while it may temporarily speed up the physical process of ending the R, will not make someone's life situation any easier.

IMO it is a LBS's misconception that there is a certain "thing" or "event" that will be the end of all the pain and suffering. In reality it is going to take several years to get over what has happened, and in some cases people who were married never completely get over one another.

Personally, I am very wary of making long-term decisions based on my short term feelings. That's kind of getting into WAS territory, if you think about it...

Kids will always link you together. My parents had a very long drawn out, ugly D. They fought for 20 yrs. They're still talking about each other every time I see them and it's now been over 30 yrs (Generally speaking you don't keep talking about someone unless on some level you did not still care for them).

Take this time to figure out what you want, LB. Do you want to stand? Would you like a chance at Recon? Would your W be receptive to you moving back in? How would you see that going while implementing DB?

You're in control of all of this, despite how it may seem.

[unchien]

Personally, I am very wary of making long-term decisions based on my short term feelings. That's kind of getting into WAS territory, if you think about it...

This is a really good insight. I think of shaking up a bottle of oil and vinegar, and then just letting things settle over time until they separate. I'm learning to make life decisions only when I have achieved that internal calm.

And I think sometimes responding to your thread (LB55), I get emotionally reactive because of the similarities we share in our situations.

Now that I am calmer than last week when I replied ... I do think letting fear go is important. Your W may go to court for custody. She may be saving up money for lawsuits. She may be delighting in your misery. And it may be all on your dime.

Or you could just be mind-reading her and causing yourself internal emotional turmoil.

Even if you are RIGHT about her, worrying about what your W is thinking is stirring you up. It's outside your control.

I've had some success in my situation just being consistent with my parenting, friendly in my interactions with my W as best as I can. The accusations of being unsafe have disappeared. There has been a general softening lately, although that may be because she realizes we are about to negotiate some things, whereas you are still in limbo.

[LB55]

So question for the group. Kids just told me mom is dating someone and they hang out as a ‘family’. I’ve never met this person. I feel that I should know who my kids are getting introduced to as romantic partners.

W has done nothing to pursue divorce.

[LH19]

What’s the question?

[LB55]

Am I wrong to think I deserve to know who this person is? He is a part of my kids life now and we are a long ways from finishing this divorce. Just shows a person how a WW acts I guess.

[LB55]

I have suspected she is with someone for quite a while now, not really all that surprised or torn up. Figured she would at least have the decency to divorce me before introducing the kids to her romantic partners though.

The kids think we are divorced. I don't have the heart to tell them mom is lying to them.

Part of me sees this as an opportunity to get an easier settlement negotiated because she can’t keep spinning the story forever and if she is so serious about this guy that he is hanging out at the house with the kids then she certainly it doesn’t want him finding out the real story about how she hasn’t done anything to work on the divorce. She will eventually have to come to me and settle if she wants to be with this guy. Do I wait it out and try to gain an advantage in negotiation or am I just wasting my life away here? She doesn’t know I am aware of what’s going on. Daughter tried to shush my son when he was telling me about this guy so clearly W doesn’t want me knowing.

I guess the best way to describe my feeling right now is disgusted. I feel her pain and she is just trying to fill the hole I suppose that is left behind by her choices. Such a sad way to deal with marital problems.

[Vapo]

For all intents and purposes you are divorced. You just don't have a paper that says so. Yet. You have to let go of your desire to know who your wife is dating. It could be that it is some kind of a weirdo, but the chances of that are very slim. Most likely you just want to meet the guy to see what he has and you don't because your W replaced you with him. It's not you, it's her.

Don't you go on "feeling" her pain. It is HER pain, not your. Do what is best for you, protect yourself and protect the kids.

Stay strong buddy...

[IronWill]

Hey LB. Sorry to hear of your latest news - that really [censored].

I don't really know what to tell you, legal-wise. I would suggest speaking to a L before you decide anything.

In regards to yourself, I guess it all depends on if you've had enough. This is only speculation on my part, but I think that if you let them know what you know, it will have to be a reveal that has some action attached to it on your part, ie. "Since this is the action you have decided to take, I will be _______".

Of course, if you do nothing, there is always the possibility that your kids may reveal to your W that they told you. Either way, I would think about it and prepare yourself for a response so you aren't blindsided.

I guess the question becomes - are you willing to wait this out? Are you willing to keep standing?

It's not an easy position to be in, I feel for you, man.

Always remember what the old threads talk about so much. The OP is a symptom of the MLC. It means nothing. Never compare yourself to the OP. They can never "replace" you. And on some level, buried deep down, even if she never shows it or says it, your W knows that what she is doing is not ok.

Take care man - stay strong.

[SteveLW]

Am I wrong to think I deserve to know who this person is? He is a part of my kids life now and we are a long ways from finishing this divorce. Just shows a person how a WW acts I guess.

I don't think you're wrong for feeling that way. I do think you have to be careful to separate your feelings about it as a father, and as an estranged husband. I see LBSs that use the kids as an excuse to try to control their STBX. So just yet to temper your reaction to it.

Not sure how to deal with it, to be honest, is probably handle it all wrong myself. Maybe some of the posters that have been through it or something similar could offer advice.

[AnotherStander]

Am I wrong to think I deserve to know who this person is? He is a part of my kids life now and we are a long ways from finishing this divorce. Just shows a person how a WW acts I guess.

Well I don't know if "deserve" is the right word, but informing you of some OM she's bringing into the kids' lives would have been the respectful thing to do for sure. Unfortunately WW's can be very disrespectful, so I'm not surprised she didn't tell you.

The kids think we are divorced. I don't have the heart to tell them mom is lying to them.

Vapo is right, the way your W sees it you ARE divorced. The "spiritual" divorce in her eyes happened at BD. The "legal" divorce is just a formality to her. She's already behaving as if you are fully divorced.

Part of me sees this as an opportunity to get an easier settlement negotiated because she can’t keep spinning the story forever and if she is so serious about this guy that he is hanging out at the house with the kids then she certainly it doesn’t want him finding out the real story about how she hasn’t done anything to work on the divorce.

You're assuming he doesn't know all the details, but he might. Most states are "no fault divorce" and if yours is one of them then you can't leverage an affair to gain any advantage in D proceedings. You might discuss that with a L.

She will eventually have to come to me and settle if she wants to be with this guy.

That depends. WW's live to cake eat and there is no better cake-eating then having a fling while staying married. It's the best of both worlds for her.

Do I wait it out and try to gain an advantage in negotiation or am I just wasting my life away here?

Waiting it out is not an option. You work on YOU. Get out. GAL like crazy. Become the spouse only a fool would leave. Give her time and space, LOTS of it. I'm not saying pursue D, but I am saying don't sit around waiting for her to have some kind of epiphany because that's not going to happen. It'll be a long time before she might look back. Make the best possible use of that time.

[LB55]

Am I wrong to think I deserve to know who this person is? He is a part of my kids life now and we are a long ways from finishing this divorce. Just shows a person how a WW acts I guess.

I don't think you're wrong for feeling that way. I do think you have to be careful to separate your feelings about it as a father, and as an estranged husband. I see LBSs that use the kids as an excuse to try to control their STBX. So just yet to temper your reaction to it.

Not sure how to deal with it, to be honest, is probably handle it all wrong myself. Maybe some of the posters that have been through it or something similar could offer advice.

I hear you on the separation of feelings steve. I do not care that she is seeing someone nearly as much as I care that the kids are using the word stepdad. If the kids are that attached already, how hurt are they going to be when mom decides to move on to the next guy? That is the crux of my thoughts here I think. How does this affect the kids and how can I protect them?

[LB55]

Waiting it out is not an option. You work on YOU. Get out. GAL like crazy. Become the spouse only a fool would leave. Give her time and space, LOTS of it. I'm not saying pursue D, but I am saying don't sit around waiting for her to have some kind of epiphany because that's not going to happen. It'll be a long time before she might look back. Make the best possible use of that time.

Not sure how to give more time and space. In the past 2 months We have maybe exchanged 4 text messages that say 'on my way' and 'ok' to coordinate picking up the kids. She sends me forwarded emails about PTSA functions at school in response to me asking to be more involved in what is happening day to day with the kids. That is the extent of our communication. I've been trying to be as dark as possible given we have kids.

I am working my GAL, most days I leave for work at 0430, get home between 5-8pm, have my GAL night with guys Monday night, football referee Friday night and Saturdays, church on sundays, etc. Trying to stay busy but am really feeling run down and exhausted at the same time.

A lot of my personal stress in my life is just from the uncertainty. I'd way rather just be divorced and have things settled financially and stuff.

[Twofeet]

Do you need to know someone who is a potential drop in the hat in the long line of drops in the hat? If she wants to have you meet this dude she will, otherwise what do you care? You only care for your side of the fence and you can only maintain your own lawn.
Her dating may only be useful if you are trying to push for divorce and your state says dating before divorce is a big no.

[AnotherStander]

Not sure how to give more time and space. In the past 2 months We have maybe exchanged 4 text messages that say 'on my way' and 'ok' to coordinate picking up the kids. She sends me forwarded emails about PTSA functions at school in response to me asking to be more involved in what is happening day to day with the kids. That is the extent of our communication. I've been trying to be as dark as possible given we have kids.

I am working my GAL, most days I leave for work at 0430, get home between 5-8pm, have my GAL night with guys Monday night, football referee Friday night and Saturdays, church on sundays, etc. Trying to stay busy but am really feeling run down and exhausted at the same time.

You're definitely doing well on these counts, I was just repeating the standard DB mantra as a reminder

A lot of my personal stress in my life is just from the uncertainty. I'd way rather just be divorced and have things settled financially and stuff.

I get it, I completely get it! That's exactly what leads a lot of LBS's to eventually push for D themselves. That's exactly why I did, I dreaded the fallout from the D settlement but at the same time I wanted it finalized so I could go about the business of getting my future life squared away. I mean I had to finance the house all over again after it had already been paid off and take on a new note for 15 years. BUT... at least I knew what the number was and could budget it and start working on paying it down. And for me, that was far better than continuing on in a weird limbo of being technically married, but not really married. I had CONTROL again, and having full control over your life does bring a sense of relief and normalcy after all the post-BD confusion.

[ovrrnbw]

So question for the group. Kids just told me mom is dating someone and they hang out as a ‘family’. I’ve never met this person. I feel that I should know who my kids are getting introduced to as romantic partners.

W has done nothing to pursue divorce.

Jesus H Christ. I'd remind your kids of the rules of marriage and family. This is an intruder.

For all intents and purposes you are divorced. You just don't have a paper that says so. Yet. You have to let go of your desire to know who your wife is dating. It could be that it is some kind of a weirdo, but the chances of that are very slim. Most likely you just want to meet the guy to see what he has and you don't because your W replaced you with him. It's not you, it's her.

Don't you go on "feeling" her pain. It is HER pain, not your. Do what is best for you, protect yourself and protect the kids.

Stay strong buddy...

I just disagree with the first sentence. What about the intent of getting things wrapped up legally? I doubt LB and Mrs. LB jumped into marriage quickly, or told people they were married for all intents and purposes when they were just dating or engaged. You don't get out of a marriage with the snap of your fingers because you spoke a few words that would be a relationship breakup outside of marriage.

I think we perpetuate a false narrative when we validated a WS's feelings that the marriage is over. You can "feel like" it's over but that goes against reality. You aren't on "home base" simply because you BD'd your spouse.

The rest of your post I like.

I do not care that she is seeing someone nearly as much as I care that the kids are using the word stepdad.

Stepdad? Seriously? Again, I'd educate the kids on marriage and the rules of it. Your W may not believe in them but you kids should.

Everyone feel free to help me if I'm missing something.

[AnotherStander]

I just disagree with the first sentence. What about the intent of getting things wrapped up legally? I doubt LB and Mrs. LB jumped into marriage quickly, or told people they were married for all intents and purposes when they were just dating or engaged. You don't get out of a marriage with the snap of your fingers because you spoke a few words that would be a relationship breakup outside of marriage.

I think we perpetuate a false narrative when we validated a WS's feelings that the marriage is over. You can "feel like" it's over but that goes against reality. You aren't on "home base" simply because you BD'd your spouse.

I don't want to speak for Vapo but what I tried to get into a bit in my previous post was that the WAS's "perception" is that the M is over at BD. They've been thinking about it a long time, and BD is all about them officially pulling the plug and considering it over and done. This is where a massive perception schism forms, as follows:

WAS: the marriage is over, I am free to do as I please and it is none of my spouse's business. I can date, sleep with people, stay at home or move away, go partying every night, spend whatever I want. It's my life now and no one can tell me otherwise.

LBS: Oh my gosh, I never knew my spouse was unhappy, this is the first sign of trouble! I need to figure out right away how to turn this around. I will scour the Internet for answers, because the sooner I act the better. Clearly what I need to do is beg, plead, negotiate, make it very clear to him/ her that the marriage is more important to me than anything in this world and I will do literally anything for them to bring them back.

I do agree that REALITY is something completely different, they are still legally married and certainly that fact should matter to BOTH of them. I mean if you're religious certainly your vow to God should matter to you, but even if you're not religious you made a personal vow to your spouse, your family, your friends and even the world at large that you will stand with this person NO MATTER WHAT. What does it say about you to all those people and even yourself to break what YOU deemed to be a sacred vow?

Anyway I'm just saying I do agree with you even though my earlier post, like Vapo's, may seem to contradict that. But both spouses are proceeding based on their perceptions- the WAS that the M is over and the LBS that it's just sick and needs some kind of healing treatment. And their actions are putting them at odds with each other and just making things worse!

We all know we can't bring the WAS back by doing what our heart is telling us (pursue) so the best we can do is the DB'ing approach of accepting THEIR perception and giving them time and space to sort things through. I'm not saying to anyone here to live like you're already divorced, but rather put the marriage on hold unless and until the WAS starts turning things around.

[SteveLW]

I don't want to speak for Vapo but what I tried to get into a bit in my previous post was that the WAS's "perception" is that the M is over at BD. They've been thinking about it a long time, and BD is all about them officially pulling the plug and considering it over and done

This is so true.

After our BD, my W immediately started acting like she was single. In her mind the announcement of her intentions to D meant she was no longer married. That continued for a good 6 weeks until she finally starting coming around to the fact that she was still my W. WW fog is real.

[IronWill]

I don't want to speak for Vapo but what I tried to get into a bit in my previous post was that the WAS's "perception" is that the M is over at BD. They've been thinking about it a long time, and BD is all about them officially pulling the plug and considering it over and done

This is so true.

After our BD, my W immediately started acting like she was single. In her mind the announcement of her intentions to D meant she was no longer married. That continued for a good 6 weeks until she finally starting coming around to the fact that she was still my W. WW fog is real.

I second this. My WAW just thought everyone would accept that since she said it was over, they would go along with her perception.

Nobody did - and the subsequent anger she directed at me was because nobody agreed with what she was doing, and in some cases told her that directly.

For my part - I said nothing, focused on myself and didn't react when she tried to bait me into fights.

[Ready2Change]

I'd educate the kids on marriage and the rules of it.

Obviously the rules suck for all of us LBS. Takes one person to declare the marriage is over. (legally)


LB,

You consider yourself married. Your wife considers herself divorced. The courts consider you married. Your kids consider you divorced. I consider you divorced, you are wrapping up loose ends.


Are you still hoping to bust your D? If your W has a change of heart, then you have a new marriage.

[Ready2Change]

As far as OM, you have lots of choices. Some have done background checks, some don't care, some introduce themselves and get to know the guy.

[may22]

Hi LB,

I'm a total newbie so take this with a grain of salt (or several), but when I was reading through this latest thing a big part of me was like who gives a **** about the possibility of her coming back or not when she's telling the kids some rando is now their stepdad?! This is probably my emotion talking, but I would sit her down and calmly set up some ground rules for what is and is not OK in terms of the kids. Lying to them is NOT ok.

I don't know what kind of decision-making framework can or can't be set up during D proceedings but maybe it is time to start that process so that you can protect your children the best you can. Having your WAW tell them to keep secrets from you about men in their lives is truly ****ed up and I could imagine setting them up for issues down the line... not to mention you DON'T know what kind of person he is.

My friend's XW's new BF is a total jerk and exacerbating his D11's anxiety to the point where they're now all in family counseling. Anyway, just a knee-jerk response but I might try to separate and prioritize what is best for your kids over a piece of paper that your WAW isn't honoring anyway. Also feels like beta behavior to let it slide in the hopes that she might wake up vs. stepping up and talking with her about it.

Of course talk to your L first to make sure everything you're doing is consistent with getting the best settlement for you and the kids possible.

[LB55]

I'd educate the kids on marriage and the rules of it.

Obviously the rules suck for all of us LBS. Takes one person to declare the marriage is over. (legally)


LB,

You consider yourself married. Your wife considers herself divorced. The courts consider you married. Your kids consider you divorced. I consider you divorced, you are wrapping up loose ends.


Are you still hoping to bust your D? If your W has a change of heart, then you have a new marriage.

Wrapping up loose ends might be an understatement. We have 3 houses and about 2.8M in assets to deal with. She wants it all for herself. This is going to be a long drawn out fight I believe. By February I am going to be working 16 hour days 7 days a week. I won’t have time for any of this and that is when she will argue I don’t want to spend time with the kids to the court. This is speculation I know; but my gut feelings are right more than not.

She left a spray bottle in my truck and added $1.50 to her tracker of things I owed her.

She is still fighting to get me supervised visits for 2 hours a month. This won’t happen but shows her mid set. Words say she wants me to spend more time with kids. Actions say she never wants me to see them again. Only reason I see them is the temporary orders say she must let me see them.

Ran into a buddy I hadnt seen in a while. He was quite put off at first; then I realized the story he had from W was I deserted them and left them destitute and I filed for divorce so I could be with a younger woman. He knows the truth now without all the details. Nothing but lies being told.

[LB55]

So question for the group. Kids just told me mom is dating someone and they hang out as a ‘family’. I’ve never met this person. I feel that I should know who my kids are getting introduced to as romantic partners.

W has done nothing to pursue divorce.

Jesus H Christ. I'd remind your kids of the rules of marriage and family. This is an intruder.

For all intents and purposes you are divorced. You just don't have a paper that says so. Yet. You have to let go of your desire to know who your wife is dating. It could be that it is some kind of a weirdo, but the chances of that are very slim. Most likely you just want to meet the guy to see what he has and you don't because your W replaced you with him. It's not you, it's her.

Don't you go on "feeling" her pain. It is HER pain, not your. Do what is best for you, protect yourself and protect the kids.

Stay strong buddy...

I just disagree with the first sentence. What about the intent of getting things wrapped up legally? I doubt LB and Mrs. LB jumped into marriage quickly, or told people they were married for all intents and purposes when they were just dating or engaged. You don't get out of a marriage with the snap of your fingers because you spoke a few words that would be a relationship breakup outside of marriage.

I think we perpetuate a false narrative when we validated a WS's feelings that the marriage is over. You can "feel like" it's over but that goes against reality. You aren't on "home base" simply because you BD'd your spouse.

The rest of your post I like.

I do not care that she is seeing someone nearly as much as I care that the kids are using the word stepdad.

Stepdad? Seriously? Again, I'd educate the kids on marriage and the rules of it. Your W may not believe in them but you kids should.

Everyone feel free to help me if I'm missing something.

Thanks Ovr, a lot of what you wrote is similar to what I am trying to convey here. I don't want to be with this woman but I refuse to do the hard lifting for her. She wants out so fing badly yet does nothing to make it happen. Tells me the reason she hasn't done anything is because I am so angry.

At this point I really just want to move forward with my life and not have her holding me over the proverbial barrel with her victim mentality she plays to the court and so forth. Unfortunately I am in such a tough spot to be proactive. My job prevents me from getting the time with the kids I want, so I lose that argument. That could change by next summer. If I force the issue now I will be locked into 4 days a month or less for 10 years. My L wants $25000 up front just to start trial paperwork. I don't have that kind of cash sitting around to waste.

I don't care about the piece of paper. I don't even know where it is. I care that she is lying to the kids about all of this. She is telling them to lie to me about it. They tell me that 'mom said we aren't supposed to tell you this' regularly. No matter the topic. I never trust a word she has to say. Every word is lies. Example: A few weeks ago she kept the kids out until after midnight partying with her divorced friend, then said they didn't want to come see me the next morning. I asked the kids about it and they said they were just too tired to want to leave the house. Lies.

I think I am going to talk with the kids about it in simple terms this weekend.

[unchien]

At this point I really just want to move forward with my life and not have her holding me over the proverbial barrel with her victim mentality she plays to the court and so forth. Unfortunately I am in such a tough spot to be proactive. My job prevents me from getting the time with the kids I want, so I lose that argument. That could change by next summer. If I force the issue now I will be locked into 4 days a month or less for 10 years. My L wants $25000 up front just to start trial paperwork. I don't have that kind of cash sitting around to waste.

I don't care about the piece of paper. I don't even know where it is. I care that she is lying to the kids about all of this. She is telling them to lie to me about it. They tell me that 'mom said we aren't supposed to tell you this' regularly. No matter the topic. I never trust a word she has to say. Every word is lies. Example: A few weeks ago she kept the kids out until after midnight partying with her divorced friend, then said they didn't want to come see me the next morning. I asked the kids about it and they said they were just too tired to want to leave the house. Lies.

I think I am going to talk with the kids about it in simple terms this weekend.

LB55 - Big caveat here, I haven't been through the next phase of the process myself yet so I'm not super informed.

Couple thoughts:

1. Are you documenting all this information in a journal? "Mom said we aren't supposed to tell you this", etc. My understanding is this information would be admissible in family court, just as she could slander you.

2. If it comes down to a family court issue, make sure a forensic psychologist is involved (I'm sure a L would advise the same). The stuff your W is saying to your kids would come up.

Really sorry to hear how difficult things have become. Hang in there.

[LB55]

I don't want to speak for Vapo but what I tried to get into a bit in my previous post was that the WAS's "perception" is that the M is over at BD. They've been thinking about it a long time, and BD is all about them officially pulling the plug and considering it over and done

This is so true.

After our BD, my W immediately started acting like she was single. In her mind the announcement of her intentions to D meant she was no longer married. That continued for a good 6 weeks until she finally starting coming around to the fact that she was still my W. WW fog is real.

I remember when I thought 6 weeks was a long time to have to deal with this! :-)

I am fine with the M being over. Really I am. I am not sure I could ever trust her again anyway. I am not sure there is anything she could do to prove to me she is trustworthy. If she came to me tomorrow with a settlement proposal that said 50/50 split with the kids, 50/50 asset split, and 2 years of spousal support of like $1500/month I would sign it tomorrow.

Unfortunately she wants me to see the kids for 4 days a month, wants all three houses we own together worth $1.3M, wants the income from my support for life, child support, and income from the rental homes to the tune of almost $9k/month. She is however willing to not take her share of my military retirement in exchange for giving up all 3 homes...which is about $750/month and starts 4 years from now. What a smoking hot deal! She believes she gets 75% of our marital assets because the kids live with her. Her L feeds this and makes promises he can't hope to come through on. This is why it will be such a fight. She will spend $1M to earn $10k if she can say she defeated me.

This fight is what I keep coming back to. I don't want to initiate it and that is strictly out of fear of the unknown. I am scared to get screwed over more than i already feel i have been. I live in a very liberal state, woman keeps the kids, the house, the income, and man can go figure out how to feed himself since he is such a worthless pig. They claim 'fair and equitable' but that is far from the truth. I wore my uniform to my hearing because I had no other clothing...she had everything...the judge looked at me and asked if I wore that to impress him because it wouldn't work.

[LB55]

LB55 - Big caveat here, I haven't been through the next phase of the process myself yet so I'm not super informed.

Couple thoughts:

1. Are you documenting all this information in a journal? "Mom said we aren't supposed to tell you this", etc. My understanding is this information would be admissible in family court, just as she could slander you.

2. If it comes down to a family court issue, make sure a forensic psychologist is involved (I'm sure a L would advise the same). The stuff your W is saying to your kids would come up.

Really sorry to hear how difficult things have become. Hang in there.

I do keep notes in my phone with dates and times and what was said and by whom. My biggest bullet right now is the temp orders that say she shall take the kids to counseling...they haven't been since May...'mom said it wasn't working so she stopped taking us'...I am sure the judge will love that one.

Whether it is admissible or not is irrelevant. What I have figured out is whomever is the dirtiest most low down liar gets their way in court. Taking the high road seems to be how you get taken.

[unchien]

My friend who went through a custody trial (in a different state) said hearsay is completely admissible in court. So it is wise to document what you can, save texts/e-mails, etc. It almost sounded like anything is admissible. In the end, with all the false allegations his XW raised, the judge saw through it and he got 50/50.

[LB55]

Hello everyone, just a quick check in...nothing changed in my situation

We’ve casually tried to discuss a separation agreement...it almost inevitably winds up with “I should get the house because remember when you forgot Valentine’s Day in 2003???” Type of stuff. Just nonsense.

I’m working a lot and trying to spend as much time with the kids as I can. I asked to see them this weekend but she said they’re busy. I asked the kids what their plans were and they said nothing planned. She just doesn’t want me to see them. Said I needed to know how it feels. Whatever that means.

Keep strong everyone; it’s a tough time of year for most here and don’t be afraid to ask for help if you’re struggling. Cheers!!

[AnotherStander]

We’ve casually tried to discuss a separation agreement...it almost inevitably winds up with “I should get the house because remember when you forgot Valentine’s Day in 2003???” Type of stuff. Just nonsense.

Hahaha! Oh man, the fantasy is strong!

I asked the kids what their plans were and they said nothing planned. She just doesn’t want me to see them. Said I needed to know how it feels. Whatever that means.

It means "you didn't give me what I want so now I'm going to try to punish you." It is really disgusting when a WAS tries to use the kids as pawns like that.

Stay strong brother!

[neffer]

Hey LB, W´s need to behave like that tells you where she´s standing...Don´t go there.

Free your mind my friend, better times coming.

Stay strong there, as AS says.

(((LB)))

[ovrrnbw]

Hey LB, was thinking about you the other day. Hope this Christmas was about a million times better than last Christmas for you.

[LB55]

Hey LB, was thinking about you the other day. Hope this Christmas was about a million times better than last Christmas for you.

Thanks for thinking of me! I'm not on here a ton anymore, probably check in once every 2-3 weeks. Nothing much has changed in my situation.

I am doing better for the most part, there are still days that stink, mostly when I hear from W so I guess im still affected by that. Most recently she told me my son had homework over the Christmas standdown. I picked them up on the 20th. Never thought to ask as its christmas break and i never had homework over christmas break. She waited until Christmas eve to let me know about the homework. We worked some of it christmas eve. I didn't have him work on it Christmas day. The kids went back to her on the 26th. Then I get a message that I am an irresponsible parent and am putting a ton of stress on my son and W because now he has all this homework to do that I failed to get done.

Christmas was better this year, spent with my sister and family, kids were with me this year. We had a great time and the kids really appreciated being with family and having a relaxing holiday. Their behavior changed dramatically over the week they were with us. Went from being entitled brats to helping with the dishes voluntarily within just a few days. They stopped playing on their tablets mostly voluntarily to spend time with their cousins. So all in all, a good change from last year!! Son shot a deer, so we got to celebrate that and do lots of work to get all the meat put away.

Still not sure what I should do with my situation. I know I don't have to do anything and that the feeling of 'doing' something is just an illusion that wastes time and money. I want to be done with this most days; yet there are days where I would still consider going back. Not sure why I would; she is so toxic and vengeful I am not sure I could ever risk going through this again with her...she hasn't done any work on herself...still just blames others for her problems. Uses the guilt card incessantly. But as long as there is someone to blame...the problem is solved from her point of view. I am tired of being blamed, even if I can recognize that I am not actually at fault for most of the things. Its tough to take on a regular basis.

[Ready2Change]

Sounds like a good Christmas. My oldest son shot his first elk this year. Good times.

As far as your W, Sometimes it is OK to call BS on things. Sometimes is is OK to shine the light on who is the REAL irresponsible parent. Most of the time, I just let it slide.



W:"H, You are an irresponsible parent and you are putting a ton of stress on me and S because now he has all this homework to do that you failed to get done."


H:"We both have VERY different views on what constitutes being an irresponsible parent. Regardless of our differences, I appreciate you letting me know about this issue. Hopefully in the future one of you will let me know in advance that there is homework to be done. Regards"

or

H:"I am sorry you are stressed over S homework"

[IronWill]

Hey LB, was thinking about you the other day. Hope this Christmas was about a million times better than last Christmas for you.

Thanks for thinking of me! I'm not on here a ton anymore, probably check in once every 2-3 weeks. Nothing much has changed in my situation.

I am doing better for the most part, there are still days that stink, mostly when I hear from W so I guess im still affected by that. Most recently she told me my son had homework over the Christmas standdown. I picked them up on the 20th. Never thought to ask as its christmas break and i never had homework over christmas break. She waited until Christmas eve to let me know about the homework. We worked some of it christmas eve. I didn't have him work on it Christmas day. The kids went back to her on the 26th. Then I get a message that I am an irresponsible parent and am putting a ton of stress on my son and W because now he has all this homework to do that I failed to get done.

Christmas was better this year, spent with my sister and family, kids were with me this year. We had a great time and the kids really appreciated being with family and having a relaxing holiday. Their behavior changed dramatically over the week they were with us. Went from being entitled brats to helping with the dishes voluntarily within just a few days. They stopped playing on their tablets mostly voluntarily to spend time with their cousins. So all in all, a good change from last year!! Son shot a deer, so we got to celebrate that and do lots of work to get all the meat put away.

Still not sure what I should do with my situation. I know I don't have to do anything and that the feeling of 'doing' something is just an illusion that wastes time and money. I want to be done with this most days; yet there are days where I would still consider going back. Not sure why I would; she is so toxic and vengeful I am not sure I could ever risk going through this again with her...she hasn't done any work on herself...still just blames others for her problems. Uses the guilt card incessantly. But as long as there is someone to blame...the problem is solved from her point of view. I am tired of being blamed, even if I can recognize that I am not actually at fault for most of the things. Its tough to take on a regular basis.

Hey LB - good to hear from you!

I imagine it must be tiring to hear of how things are all your fault. My W did that for months before I told her point blank I was not interested in hearing all my faults again. For me, it worked - after I said that, it caused fire and brimstone but it stopped.

It is very unfortunate when WASes use children to project their emotional baggage onto the LBS. I don't have kids so I don't have much of a reference point other than with my nephews.

I would tell you to stay strong but you already are a master at that. Try not to let her words get to you. It's hard, man - all of us here are still attached, at least a little - otherwise why else would we be on a site called DB?

I'm into the marathon part of this now, too. I haven't given up yet either, but I would say for the first time I'm starting to think about it. I don't because I told myself I would do everything I possibly could. That way I would have a clear conscience. I think you might be in the same boat, man.

Take care!

[LB55]

Sounds like a good Christmas. My oldest son shot his first elk this year. Good times.

As far as your W, Sometimes it is OK to call BS on things. Sometimes is is OK to shine the light on who is the REAL irresponsible parent. Most of the time, I just let it slide.



W:"H, You are an irresponsible parent and you are putting a ton of stress on me and S because now he has all this homework to do that you failed to get done."


H:"We both have VERY different views on what constitutes being an irresponsible parent. Regardless of our differences, I appreciate you letting me know about this issue. Hopefully in the future one of you will let me know in advance that there is homework to be done. Regards"

or

H:"I am sorry you are stressed over S homework"

Thanks R2C

I effectively did that, said if I had more notice that we would have worked on it more. I also said I wasn't sorry for not making him work on Christmas day to save her the stress of having to work on homework. Maybe not the best but it is how I feel.

She is doing the irresponsible parent thing to continue to try and prove in a court that I shouldn't ever see the kids or be around them. I'd love to let this stuff slide as it really isn't a big deal and I don't owe an explanation to her; however she will present that as indifference about the kids to show I don't care to be around them and won't help her parent. So I feel like I must continue to defend myself. I work hard to stay away from the 'you' statements and stick to the 'I' statements to help minimize escalation. It kind of works.

Nearly every communication is loaded with blame and shirks responsibility for her choices and the consequences. Its quite frustrating but there is nothing I can do about it. Sometimes I wait days to read her emails because I don't want to deal with her emotional onslaught at that point in time.

Nice that your son got an elk! That is a big animal with lots of good meat! Congrats to him!

[Ready2Change]

I was successful on my moose hunt as well. My standup freezer is full.


My X is the same way. It has been 10 years. All of our communication is via email. Been very sparse the last few years. Email records was good if I had needed "proof" in court. I believe the courts see though most of the BS, but always good to be on the cautious side.

[LB55]

Just checking in y’all...nothing much changed...still very little effective communication...just want it to be over. Less stress in my life will be a good thing. Being the best dad I can be while working 15 hour days and everything is closed due to COVID 19.

Sunny and 60 tomorrow...gonna go play disc golf with the kids.

[LB55]

Well here’s the end of another month. WW filed paperwork to move in with her BF. He has a 2Br house and is trying to move WW and both kids in. Not sure if she just thinks she can abandon our house and move or what. Or why this is best for the kids. I’m working on filing an objection because this is clearly not what’s best for the kids. To move out of their house, away from their school, friends, dad, and grandparents...all so she can live with her BF.

Plus she has been withholding visitation so I’m filing contempt of court paperwork at the same time. Going to get ugly quick friends. Haven’t seen the kids in over a month. This hurts me more than anything. Not seeing them at all is killing me.

Have been working a lot of hours and it’s catching up to me. I’m so tired. Haven’t been around here much but just came to update and vent a bit.

No sign of any interest in actually getting divorced or working towards a settlement. I know this is all a matter of disrespect towards me but yet I’m still just taking it for the most part. I struggle internally a lot to remain calm and live for myself and improve while under a ton of stress that seems like would be greatly reduced if i just went for a trial and forced this to be over.

Sigh.

[unchien]

LB ~ I was wondering today how things were going for you.

I'm really sorry you are going through this. I'm going through a milder version and the stress is unbelievable, I can't imagine how you feel.

What is stopping you from the trial route? I'm not pushing you in that direction, just curious.

[IronWill]

Hey LB - good to hear from you. Sorry things are still [censored]. Sometimes life just keeps throwing those punches.

Has there been any attempt at communication at all? Looks like W is still off the rails like mine - nothing makes sense in this world. Logic has gone missing

Keep yourself grounded in reality and try to keep all emotions and reactions out of any interactions.

Take care, man - stay strong

[LB55]

Thanks friends.

U-A trial isn’t what I want. That’s what’s stopping me. It’s expensive and I’ll get roughly the same deal as if we can work out a settlement. I’m hopeful that all of the work my attorney and I are doing will bring her to the negotiation table. This needs to get done. It’s been 18 months and she is trying to move in with someone an hour and a half away but doesn’t have any interest in finishing our business.

IW - Sounds like things aren’t much better from your comments...sorry man this is such a tough thing for all of us. There has been communication; she tells me regularly that this is my fault, that if I would just stop fighting this would be so much easier, etc. I’ve sent her one settlement proposal and she went line by line to tell me why I was wrong on every single thing. So I sent the same proposal to my attorney and that is the line in the sand for me. I think I’ve got a pretty solid case against the kids moving and she’s gonna be hot!!! She’s already moved a whole bunch of stuff. She’s already told the kids they’re moving. It’s gonna be a rough ride for sure.

Thanks for the support; I’ll try and get caught up on your situations here soon. Cheers and stay strong!

[jstrembr]

U-A trial isn’t what I want. That’s what’s stopping me. It’s expensive and I’ll get roughly the same deal as if we can work out a settlement. I’m hopeful that all of the work my attorney and I are doing will bring her to the negotiation table. This needs to get done. It’s been 18 months and she is trying to move in with someone an hour and a half away but doesn’t have any interest in finishing our business.

Hi LB55, I don't really have anything to add, other than to say I'm here with you as well. It's hard, but agree with your thoughts on trial, certainly expensive and just leads to the same outcome.

I don't have kids with my current wife, and we don't really have much to split as far as assets. Very simple case, and yet I'm experiencing the same thing. Just her living a new life and not take the time to finish her old one, and in my case it's not even that she doesn't agree, she just won't take the effort to get it done. It's tough sometimes to handle that type of disrespect, but I try to just keep doing my best and it sounds like you are too!

[dillydaf]

Hi LB, sorry to hear your update. You sound pretty detached from her though I hope you get somewhere legally with being able to see your kids and not have her move them away, that is rough. Have a hug (())

[Ready2Change]

HI my friend. Thanks for the update.

Sometimes we have to use the courts even though we really don't want to. It is the right thing to do.

I wish you well.

[unchien]

U-A trial isn’t what I want. That’s what’s stopping me. It’s expensive and I’ll get roughly the same deal as if we can work out a settlement. I’m hopeful that all of the work my attorney and I are doing will bring her to the negotiation table. This needs to get done. It’s been 18 months and she is trying to move in with someone an hour and a half away but doesn’t have any interest in finishing our business.

LB ~ Do you have any signs that you have a chance of working out a settlement?

I know you can't share details of your legal maneuverings. I can tell you from my experience that they haven't helped much. I am prepared to go to trial for what I value most, even though it is nauseating to think about (not just financially, but emotionally). I'm pursuing alternative avenues as well with the hopes of closing this in a rational, cost-effective manner.

Two months ago I decided I was willing to go to trial for what I valued most. I waffled for 2 months on this decision. I'm so glad I made it. And due to the quarantine, things haven't even started happening yet.

[job]

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