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#2857672 07/19/19 11:23 AM
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Hi everyone. This is my new thread.

Here is my old thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2852366#Post2852366

Quick summary.

Spring 18 I discovered H in an EA by checking texts on his phone. He strenuously denied, claimed I was having mental health problems, then finally confessed when confronted with more evidence. Things had not been right between us for a year or so prior to that. We went to MC during which H blamed me for all his actions and carried on denying the extent of his contact with EA woman. He became increasingly critical and controlling and verbally abusive. I BD'd him in Jan 19 and he moved out. The first few months were appalling, with him refusing contact with Eldest. (One of our major differences was over parenting). This has thawed now, and though I am mainly dark, he's having good contact and friendly interactions with both kids regularly, and is increasingly involved in their lives. He is in IC, as am I. He wants to R and go to MC, though I am undecided.

Nothing new to report as yet. I am still thinking. Feeling less sad and to be honest a bit angry. Especially after typing out this summary. It took a long time, lots of posts and lots of hearing advice from the vets on here to understand that H was abusive and that I needed to protect myself from that at all costs. I have done so. The abuse has stopped - verbal and emotional - and he seems to have done a total 180. But it's only been a few weeks. He is apologetic but has offered no clear explanation (which is an improvement on him blaming me for his unacceptable behaviour - but it isn't enough).

I guess while I can believe in theory that people can change, that he may well be willing to do the work and may well be taking his IC seriously, even in the best possible circumstances, I still get the 'prize' of Ring with a man who I know is capable of great cruelty. He may change. He may look inside and do the work. That's up to him. But even if he does, I can't help but feel I deserve something better than a man who needs to take strenuous and special efforts to refrain from emotionally and verbally abusing his wife. He had much to be unhappy about in our marriage - I own that - but he could have just left, moved on, and gone dark. He could have divorced me. Instead, he stayed and made my life a misery, and carried on making it a misery for as long as I allowed it. Perhaps my going dark has 'worked' but I am not sure I want someone I need to take such drastic measures to get him to understand I am human and deserving of respect and basic civility.

I am resting a lot at the moment. Making no hasty decisions. I worked so so so hard to get where I am, and it hurt, and it was really hard, and it look longer than it should have. My children suffered in the process. I am not willing to go there again for anything.

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Well it's been a few days now. I feel much more settled in my feelings but I would still appreciate advice and suggestions from vets as to where to go from here.

It's very quiet all of a sudden.

H and I have been talking a little more. Or rather, he's been talking and I've been listening. I'm still pretty dark for myself and not disclosing much, but I am listening to what he wants to say. I think he knows I will 100% shut it down the second he gets disrespectful or abusive, and there's been none of that at all - but plenty of reflection from him on why he was acting that way. He doesn't seem to be blaming me or attempting to excuse or justify his actions any longer. Whether that is enough to consider R and starting the piecing journey, I do not know. I still feel very bruised and guarded. He's been very clear that the ball is in my court and where we go from here is up to me. Which feels fair and respectful of him, but also makes me feel a bit pressured.

I have the door open a tiny crack and it feels like something from me is needed before we go further and I don't know what.

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Alison , you are doing so well , I am.not sure you realise how far you have come . I have no idea of what to say , hopefully one of the experienced vets will come along .

Until then what’s the plans for the week and weekend?

For me Ian enjoying being in an aircon office , but the commute is harsh . Thinking of hitting the coast at the weekend, somewhere a bit off the beaten track hopefully.

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Alison - I have the same advice as last week. Take your time, you do not have to operate on his timeline. I would say do nothing while you feel pressured.

When it comes to your H and whether he has truly changed, I think it boils down to 2 key questions:

1. Do you believe he understands the underlying thoughts, issues, and attitudes that drove his abusive and disrespectful behavior in the past?
2. If so, what is he doing to address them (or what signs have you seen)?

I say this because it's one thing to address the symptoms of that type of behavior (or be on one's best behavior for awhile), but true change comes from deeper digging. I'm guessing you are tentative because you see the behavioral change but don't know if it's really there to stick. And also, true change can take years.

Think about how hard it has been to change yourself. The time, the energy, the emotional pain. Change does not come easy.

I have no advice about where to go from here, unfortunately. That is a really difficult position to be in.

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I agree with Unchien. You have the control here.

Personally I would need to see progressive change over a long period of time before I believed any of it was true.

Consistency over time.

How you convey that to H is a big mystery. I guess it would depend on your interactions with him if there are any. And as always what you would need to see from him going forward.

I saw somewhere here or on another site - someone said they would ask this question -

"What would be different this time?"

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Alison -

I posted those 2 questions because of my own sitch. I spent a lot of time in the spring reading and thinking about whether I was abusive. What I have taken away is I did behave in some very disrespectful ways and sometimes did cross over the threshold into emotionally abusive behavior.

I stopped the behavior long before my W distanced herself. But I did not address my issues fully.

Working through IC to understand the thoughts beliefs and attitudes driving my behavior has been life changing. Once those change, the behaviors automatically change.

How can your H possibly show you? I have no idea. Being on the other side, I don’t know how to show it to my W either. Pressure, earnestness, talking about myself - it all feels self serving to me.

When the topic of trust came up in MC (specifically my W lacking trust in me), I asked the counselor how am I supposed to restore trust? He said that’s not up to you W and it’s not up to me. It’s up to you.

Just some thoughts... frankly the ball is not in your court. Relationships are not tennis matches.

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Originally Posted by unchien

How can your H possibly show you? I have no idea. Being on the other side, I don’t know how to show it to my W either.

Just some thoughts... frankly the ball is not in your court. Relationships are not tennis matches.


I abused my husband emotionally and verbally. He moved out 4 months ago. In my case I was depressed which drove a lot of my behavior. I didn't know how bad it was until it was gone. I sought ADs after he left not realizing it would change my life for the better.

He's gone dark but because of kids I can show my changes to him without seeing him. We do text about the kids in a business like manner. At first I was manipulative and he could tell by the words I chose. I couldn't hide it because it wasn't sincere. Over time I started to heal and I don't know I just no longer have the need to manipulate or control. These days I don't expect a response from him, I'm not upset when he ignores me, I can now take the "I'm angry at you" texts without making excuses or trying to talk him out of his feelings. When he pointed out my bad behavior (recently) I thanked him for pointing it out to me and said I would fix it (I was sincere). I'm not completely sure what he wants but I am fixing it to the best of my ability. When I see him (rare) I do ask to R but when he says no I don't push.

I've got to work now but I will write more later. Oh and on the tennis ball thing I read that in cases like this it is the abuser that has the ball. Took me a bit to let that sink in but I get it now. He left solely because I was an abuser. He didn't rush off to file which means the ball is in MY court. He's not doing anything hastily either which means I've got time. BTW I'm 4 months out and I am NOT healthy enough to reconcile. I've come a long way yes but it's too soon and i know it/he knows it. As much as I hate to say this I'll probably need a year. Not full on NC for a year just not not making any major decisions until that year is up.


Last edited by kas99; 07/24/19 02:01 PM.
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One more thing before I stop procrastinating. At first I was doing the work to get him back. Problem with this is that it's EXHAUSTING!!! Trying to make someone else happy means it won't stick. It's too hard and there is no reward, no payback, no atta boys, nothing. Over time I began doing the work for me which is a whole lot easier since the only person I have to make happy is me. I don't need any payback or reward. Feeling proud of what I've done is the reward regardless of whether he gives me another chance or not. During this I've become a better mom. A few weeks ago my teenage daughter said "I got my mom back". I don't need it no but this is feedback that I'm on the right track.

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Hi Alison,

I agree with the others. I don't know that you have to go anywhere from here, however you can simply continue to live your life; take care of yourself, your kids, heal from this painful sitch, and continue your 180s and GAL. I don't view this as a tennis match where the ball is now in your court. So he is changing his tune, having some regrets and he wants to work on the M now? That is great for him that he thinks he knows what he wants now. That does not mean it is great for you. It also does not mean you have to jump at this opportunity.

You have done a great job of creating boundaries and no longer allowing his abuse of you. You essentially taught him how he cannot treat you. It worked and he also gained respect for you. In the mean time, you created some much needed space for yourself and started to detach a bit. With that comes sadness and what appears to be acceptance and grief. I think when we finally step out of the drama/chaos and start to go dark, we see our situation a bit more clearly and it is rather depressing. When you are caught up in a cycle of distance/pursuit, it is hard to see the forest through the trees. Your M as you knew it is dead, gone and over. Of course you feel sadness about that. That was your dream family and life you created, and you lost it. Now that everything has calmed down, you can see it more clearly for what it is.

I have no idea what will happen now and I would guess it will take a long time to unfold. When all of us get BDd we are in a panic, we are only focused on getting them back, we come here, and then everyone tell us this is a marathon and not a sprint. I didn't even know what that meant until years later. Even piecing over the last 4.5 years it has been 3 steps forward and then 2 steps back. So really, the only thing you can do now, is continue on your own journey of healing and recovery. He really hurt you a lot. He cannot be the one to mend or heal this. That comes from you. In a way, they give us a gift in this sh-thole mess they create because they teach us that the art of self love is the only healer. And we get pretty good at it.

In the mean time, he may continue to try harder, pursue you or even pressure you. And that is his choice. If you feel like listening to him or even spending time with him, that is your choice. You take all the time you need. If over time, he continues to show you that he has changed, is continuing to work on himself, and he is continuing to tell you he will do anything to be with you, well then you can decide if you want to give him a chance. And that is when the very hard work will begin. So take care of yourself now and don't think you have to do anything differently. Hugs.

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Thanks so much for the advice, everyone. I have been thinking hard about your suggestions and insights and concentrating on taking care of myself. I've joined a walking group and have been outdoors a lot - sometimes with the group, sometimes alone, and sometimes with the children. I haven't made any new friends yet, but I've enjoyed the company and the activity and after so many years at an indoors and sedentary job, I can feel how much good it is doing my body and mind to be out in nature.


Originally Posted by unchien
1. Do you believe he understands the underlying thoughts, issues, and attitudes that drove his abusive and disrespectful behavior in the past?
2. If so, what is he doing to address them (or what signs have you seen)?


I do believe he is starting to understand it - and he's showing me through the conversations he's had that his focus has changed somewhat, and rather than looking outside to blame me or his circumstances, he's started digging into his own character and history. That's very new. I don't know if he is able or willing to sustain that, especially in the context of the normal stresses and strains of family life, but it is a start and I like what I see so far. His actions have been small - though in fairness, I haven't given him much time or space with me to make bigger actions. He's taking a lot more of the 'mental load' of caring for our children and is reliable and eager to stick to the agreement we made with finances. I haven't needed to remind him of that. He's being honest with me when he's out of sorts (he said, 'I know I'm grumpy - it isn't you, I'm just exhausted and I need to go home and sleep' when we were talking about some childcare issues last week, and that's a huge thing). He's taking better care of himself - I don't see him hungover or unshaved any more, and he's getting out and exercising alone and socially very often. He's speaking to me with respect, and he said he was willing to hear about what changes I'd want to see in a future R, though I haven't taken him up on that yet. He is still attending IC and the offer from him of MC is on the table, though he has not pressured me or put a time-limit on that. He has apologised for his treatment of me, and called it what it was - verbal and emotional abuse - and he's also spoken about how he was feeling in the last year or so of our marriage as it was without blaming me. The honesty and self disclosure is new.

Originally Posted by unchien
How can your H possibly show you? I have no idea. Being on the other side, I don’t know how to show it to my W either. Pressure, earnestness, talking about myself - it all feels self serving to me.

When the topic of trust came up in MC (specifically my W lacking trust in me), I asked the counselor how am I supposed to restore trust? He said that’s not up to you W and it’s not up to me. It’s up to you.


These are brilliant questions. There's the temptation to make him suffer, to go through all kinds of hoop-jumping, to make him grovel, etc etc. I'm not proud of that feeling and I am not acting on it, but it is there. I know that my lack of trust, my resentment and my own tendency to blame and elide my own part on what went wrong are things that I need to work on before we'd be ready for piecing. Some days I am there, and much more of the time, I'm just not. I'm still angry at him. At the moment there's nothing he can do or say other than what he is doing. I think the rest of the work, at this time, is mine. And I need time. I know I want a relationship between two equals, and that will involve us both drawing a line under the past and building something new.

Originally Posted by BluWave
Hi Alison,

I agree with the others. I don't know that you have to go anywhere from here, however you can simply continue to live your life; take care of yourself, your kids, heal from this painful sitch, and continue your 180s and GAL. I don't view this as a tennis match where the ball is now in your court. So he is changing his tune, having some regrets and he wants to work on the M now? That is great for him that he thinks he knows what he wants now. That does not mean it is great for you. It also does not mean you have to jump at this opportunity.


Wise words, as always Blu. He does talk about wanting things to be different. Wanting to feel supported and wanting to feel like a partnership. What that would practically look like in day to day life I don't know - I want those things too, but it is possible that his vision for a future marriage does not match what I need or would be able to offer and vice versa. I have no idea how people actually do piecing. Do they sit down together and write a list of what they want and see if they can come to some agreement before taking the step forward and putting it into action? How did it work for you, Blu?

There are some practical things I want in a marriage - like equal partnership in finances and childrearing, fun time together, clear and agreed boundaries around friendships with the opposite sex, support for each other's time alone and personal development, full and clear communication, active and adventurous intimate life - that at the moment I don't want to ask for, because while I know I want these things in a future theoretical marriage, I am not certain I want them with him, or that I am in an emotional state where I can confidently and consistently offer them to him or for that matter, someone else. I have been honest with him about that, and while he's said it was hard for him to hear, he accepted it without rancour and thanked me for my honesty.

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Hey Alison -

Looks like you are starting to see a few positive signs from H. That's a good thing, in any situation in life, if there's improvement over deterioration, it deserves to be acknowledged.

You are right to have feelings of anger and resentment. I think it's important to feel those things, but not let them consume oneself. It's a narrow balance to maintain - part of us wants to retaliate, another part wants nothing to do with the other person, and yet another part wants to put the past in the past and look to a better future.

Where you go from here is up to you, as it is for all of us LBSs.

I'm nowhere near piecing, but I would tend to think that you might start it by rereading your last paragraph in the post above and later, once he has shown a willingness to continue with his own improvement and if you so choose, finding a way to communicate that to your H.

Just my opinion though.

Glad to hear you've found some cool GAL

Stay strong smile

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Alison - Your emotional awareness of what is going on inside of you is remarkable. I don't really have any advice I just wanted to say I admire your equanimity in the face of a really really difficult situation.

Hang in there, sometime sitting still and doing nothing is exactly the right thing to do while you let thoughts and emotions settle.

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Originally Posted by kas99
Originally Posted by unchien

How can your H possibly show you? I have no idea. Being on the other side, I don’t know how to show it to my W either.

Just some thoughts... frankly the ball is not in your court. Relationships are not tennis matches.


I abused my husband emotionally and verbally. He moved out 4 months ago. In my case I was depressed which drove a lot of my behavior. I didn't know how bad it was until it was gone. I sought ADs after he left not realizing it would change my life for the better.

He's gone dark but because of kids I can show my changes to him without seeing him. We do text about the kids in a business like manner. At first I was manipulative and he could tell by the words I chose. I couldn't hide it because it wasn't sincere. Over time I started to heal and I don't know I just no longer have the need to manipulate or control. These days I don't expect a response from him, I'm not upset when he ignores me, I can now take the "I'm angry at you" texts without making excuses or trying to talk him out of his feelings. When he pointed out my bad behavior (recently) I thanked him for pointing it out to me and said I would fix it (I was sincere). I'm not completely sure what he wants but I am fixing it to the best of my ability. When I see him (rare) I do ask to R but when he says no I don't push.

I've got to work now but I will write more later. Oh and on the tennis ball thing I read that in cases like this it is the abuser that has the ball. Took me a bit to let that sink in but I get it now. He left solely because I was an abuser. He didn't rush off to file which means the ball is in MY court. He's not doing anything hastily either which means I've got time. BTW I'm 4 months out and I am NOT healthy enough to reconcile. I've come a long way yes but it's too soon and i know it/he knows it. As much as I hate to say this I'll probably need a year. Not full on NC for a year just not not making any major decisions until that year is up.



Kass, I just wanted to acknowledge your post properly. I am sure that a lot of the problems in my marriage stem from a period nearly five years ago when I had very severe PND. I didn't believe I was sick and refused to get treatment for over a year, and in that year made my H's life a misery. I wasn't violent and I wasn't unfaithful, but my behaviour was appalling. I was ill and it wasn't my fault I was will. I wish I'd sought treatment earlier, but part of the illness is not really knowing you are ill. I know it made him scared of me, and feel out of control and helpless, and he felt unable to leave or set boundaries around my behaviour (because, as he said, what kind of man leaves a woman with PND?) and I'm at the stage now where I can look back on that time, and the effects it caused in me, for my H and on my marriage with compassion and regret but not with guilt. I wish you well. Your honesty is really inspiring. If your H is anything like mine, there's a huge amount of fear underneath everything else.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Alison - Your emotional awareness of what is going on inside of you is remarkable. I don't really have any advice I just wanted to say I admire your equanimity in the face of a really really difficult situation.

Hang in there, sometime sitting still and doing nothing is exactly the right thing to do while you let thoughts and emotions settle.


Thank you so much unchien. I feel pretty settled and calm most of the time - I have all the same feelings, but I am watching them rather than acting out of them for the time being. It's a better place to be. I find it much easier to maintain that sense of calm and detachment when I am not around my H. When I am with him, I do feel myself getting more anxious, defensive, upset, needy etc - all the bad stuff - and acting out of that rather than acting out of a steadier place. That's how I know I am not ready for piecing. I like myself better when I am not around him. It's sad, and it might change in time, but for now that is how it is.

I know you weren't asking for suggestions, but just in case this is helpful to you - what I have found useful to help me get steady is 1. going dark as much as is practically possible (we do still actually talk a lot about childcare logistics and the kids, which is fine - and these past couple of weeks I listen when he wants to tell me about himself, but I don't tend to join in). 2. meditation 3. walking.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
When I am with him, I do feel myself getting more anxious, defensive, upset, needy etc - all the bad stuff - and acting out of that rather than acting out of a steadier place. That's how I know I am not ready for piecing

I would say that is a good sign you are not ready.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I know you weren't asking for suggestions, but just in case this is helpful to you - what I have found useful to help me get steady is 1. going dark as much as is practically possible (we do still actually talk a lot about childcare logistics and the kids, which is fine - and these past couple of weeks I listen when he wants to tell me about himself, but I don't tend to join in). 2. meditation 3. walking.

Alison - Steadiness is my goal, and I'm glad to hear I am following a similar path because I can tell from your posts you are reaching a nice balance.

#1 - I am doing something similar, probably not to the degree you are. We still have weekly MC and a 1:1 phone call to cover logistics and the kids (with a pre-set agenda). There are flare-ups from time to time, but the frequency has reduced. I feel like I struggle more with detaching from the dream of nuclear family life than from my W. Kid handoffs are still a little weird, we both fall into old patterns of friendliness sometimes which feels awkward.

#2 - After probably 7 years of periodically dabbling, but never seriously, for the last 10 days or so meditation is finally clicking for me. It is incredible. The phone app has helped me a ton because it has so many options to try. It really has helped ease me in and experiment with what works (instead of just trying to sit quiet and focus on breathing, which I think is a really hard way to enter into meditation for a newbie).

#3 - I work at a beautiful campus, and every day includes an after-lunch walk. That and I am exercising like a maniac (which helps with sleep issues).

I am also an avid podcast consumer. But I switched from relationship and divorce podcasts over to different ones recommended primarily by Maika. Many of these touch on emotional awareness and relationships, but sometimes they are just great motivation to get up and attack life head-on day by day. Taking that energy and re-focusing it in a positive direction helps a lot.

What doesn't work for me: Ruminating, reading too many books or articles, spending too much time on DB forums, wallowing, worrying about the future, whether I will reconcile or find somebody else, sitting on my couch, etc.

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Alison - curious if you have any updates? Hope things are well.

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Alison - it seems to me that you really want to get some assurance that your H has made substantive changes and that is eminently reasonable. He's presumably only a bloke so his mind is racing round in circles trying to convince you of something. He will be wasting loads of emotional energy. If you give him a clue he can focus his attentions more selectively and you can speed up the process for both of you. Let him know you are monitoring and that you are looking for the same light at the end of the tunnel( if you are? ). Don't give him a list of objectives - that is for him to work out.

This process is hard for both of you. Don't make it any harder than it needs to be


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thank you Unchien and Family Man.

Update. Well, we've continued to talk and spend a bit more time together - I let him instigate that. It feels easier than it did and I feel less needy and anxious in his company. There are misunderstandings sometimes. I think he's as tentative and as scared as I am, though sometimes it looks to me like it is reluctance or resentment - so I have a hard time not reading the worst into his feelings, and he into mine. We've talked through a couple of those moments together fairly well though there's not so much R talk. The sadness I feel is still there, but not as strong as it used to be. There are bitter sweet moments, where sometimes I forget (especially if he is affectionate with me) but then I remember and want to draw back. He talks to me a little about his therapy. I am careful not to offer advice or opinions. He looks healthier and healthier - he is clearly taking much better care of himself and it seems the drinking habits I was getting worried about seem to have changed.

I really thought we were heading in the right direction, and were starting to have some talks about what I would need and what he would need to take things further - when I found out that he's only able to stay at the place he is renting until November. I didn't know that. Now I am thinking that perhaps he's just trying to get onto my good side because it suits him better to be at home than look for somewhere else to live. He has the money and ability to find somewhere else in the short term, and in the long term a divorce would lower both our standards of living slightly but not significantly, so I am not sure how much of an influence that really is on him or if it's just my insecurities showing. I notice him paying lots of special attention to the children and things between him and Eldest are 100% better. There are still flash points occasionally (usually caused by Eldest being pretty difficult - as would be normal for a boy his age) but H seems to deal much better with them - he is firm but not abusive, belittling or sarcastic. It's been a good while since he's behaved in a way I'd consider to be abusive. At times he is very tender and loving with me. Eldest is still in therapy and seems much calmer and more settled.

The difficulty is in me, I think. I do love him, but I look at him and see the terrible things he's said and done to me. The way his temper frightened me and made him utterly unreachable - he became a man that could not be reasoned with and was not capable of civility. That really wasn't so long ago. Father's Day (which is mid June here in the UK) I had to call him a taxi and throw him out of my home because his behaviour was so incoherent and unacceptable. That's only two months ago - and while he's consistently behaved much much better than that in recent times, I have no idea how he would behave under the normal stress and strain of family life, poorly behaved teenagers, trouble at work, illness - all the normal stuff that a marriage needs to bear. I don't feel afraid of him now because I have my own space and control over when and how I see him. But I can't really imagine how I could trust him again now I've seen what he's capable of. I don't expect perfection and he's doing and saying all the right things but neither of us can change the past and growing trust again is very slow.

Originally Posted by Family Man
If you give him a clue he can focus his attentions more selectively and you can speed up the process for both of you. Let him know you are monitoring and that you are looking for the same light at the end of the tunnel( if you are? ). Don't give him a list of objectives - that is for him to work out.



Thank you for this Family Man. Could you give me some suggestions as to the kind of thing you mean? I guess if I was going to come out and ask for specifics, I would say 1. he needs to go to IC, 2. he needs to see his doctor for stress / depression and do whatever his doctor suggests 3. he needs to have no contact at all with EA woman 4. he needs to concentrate his attention on repairing the relationship with his children 5. he needs to communicate with me openly and honestly without blaming me or using verbally abusing or belittling language. And he is doing all of these things - I mean, he could be lying about 1, 2 and 3 but because I am witnessing such clear changes on 4 and 5 I don't think he is. I am not sure what else I could ask for that would make me feel better. Only time, I suppose.

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Alison, be very, very careful. I don't see anything different this time than all the other times he's turned on the "mister nice guy" routine to try and pull you in again. Expect the abuse cycle to continue to repeat. He needs to do a lot of hard work before he'll be able to be in a serious R again.


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Alison

What I see is your torment. At the moment you are not even sure that you want a R with this man in the future. You are asking what things you should look for in order for you to persuade yourself that you should go for it.

Nobody can answer that. You have to feel it, know it and live it. Everything that you have posted says that you are not ready to begin piecing if it is on the table.

It's far too soon to talk about whether his changes are permanent. You know that; hence the torment.

You need time. Are you worried that this is a once only chance and if you don't grab it he will get pi**ed off?

If he's not prepared to give you ALL the time you need then that's your answer about permanent changes.

There's no need to force any time scale. Continue to be kind and true to yourself and sit back and see what ensues.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Alison, be very, very careful. I don't see anything different this time than all the other times he's turned on the "mister nice guy" routine to try and pull you in again. Expect the abuse cycle to continue to repeat. He needs to do a lot of hard work before he'll be able to be in a serious R again.


I think AS has a great point here. Let him do the hard work.

You don't have to give him the cold shoulder all the time. But be wary. It's going to take consistency and quite a bit of time to prove change.

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Alison -

If he really wants you back, he will give you the time and space you need.

Also I think if he makes true change, it will stand out to you clearly. You may not know exactly what it will look like, but it will feel right. (If that makes sense?)

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Thanks both. Your warnings echo a lot of what I am feeling and thinking about myself. Day to day I am fine. I certainly don't feel under any pressure from him to move things forward.

There are differences. Him seeking IC and help from his doctor are new things and as far as I know he is following through with that. He's also taking responsibility and has dropped the blame. It is possible it is just an act to get what he wants - I can accept that. I also know it is very early days and people can pretend to be more or less anything for a short amount of time. I can accept that too.

I guess that sooner or later I will need to either trust his changes and move towards him a little bit with curiosity accepting that there will be some level of risk involved, or I will need to accept that I don't and can't ever trust him no matter what changes he makes or says he will make, and move forward based on that. At the moment I don't feel ready to make either of those decisions, and he seems to be accepting of that right now, and so I guess I need to accept it too.

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Hi Alison, in answer to your question there are some good things going on here. But as I said he is only a bloke. In a relationship struggle he will feel tremendous pressure to prove himself quickly. Blokes tend to have a single focus and if he's trying to convince you that he's made the right changes he will expect quicker results than you do. He will be frustrated that you don't see the improvements as he does. It's a simple management problem - catch him doing things right and praise him for it. If he can relax in the knowledge that you have appreciated and support his efforts he can take time to concentrate on completing his transformation. Let him know that you value consistency over speed. It should boost his resolve and confidence that he is making real progress. But keep monitoring to make sure he doesn't get complacent. Good luck.

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Thanks Family Man. I don't get the impression that he's confused or impatient - he seems to be dead set on putting his own mental health and wellbeing first, then his relationships with the children - he isn't pushing for R or to live with me at all. I think that's appropriate given our history - his own head needs to be straight and he needs to be the best father he can be, and then we'll see where we are when he's done that work. I don't get a sense he's frustrated either. I know he wishes I'd trust him a bit more and not always read the worst possible motivation into the changes he's making - but he also accepts I have excellent reason to be wary and things can go at my pace, or not at all. I think you're right about complacency though. It would be very easy for me to get complacent in my own changes and go back to pacifying and placating him for the sake of peace, and lose sight of what I actually want and need for myself. It would also be very easy at the moment to go towards him emotionally, and get that unhealthy dependent dynamic that really damaged our old marriage. I want to be okay in myself no matter what changes he does and doesn't make and there's work for me to do there, and work on not getting complacent about what I've already done.

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Interesting Alison, I'm also a bloke and people seem to get a different impression about me from what I know is going on inside. The ploys we advocate on this site often require that we present an image of detachment when we hurt like hell inside. Acting as if is priming oneself to behave in a way we are not quite ready for. That is tiring and second guessing whether his latest change has been understood as he would like is emotionally draining. It seems like you are in charge here( even if he doesn't know it ) and I believe you may be able to help him stay focussed on the changes you want to see with small signs of approval. But don't micro manage him. As regards his priorities - his counsellor would have told him that he needs to get himself into a resourceful state before he embarks implementing meaningful relationship changes. He is following a plan and that has to be positive as long as it's a good one.


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I used to think of it that way too, Family Man. As 'ploys'. There are lots of times that I feel affectionate or needy or upset or mournful and I never ever let my H see anything other than calm, confident, mildly friendly but not attached these days, no matter how I feel. I don't consider this a ploy or manipulative, I consider it a shield of privacy. I have friends who know my heart. I know my own heart. I'm as frank as I can be here. But I show my heart to people who have earned the right to see it. My H has not got that right yet, and the jury is out as to whether he ever will. He needs to make the changes for himself and his own well being and in his own best judgement, not as a ploy to get a certain reaction out of me. I hope that's what he's doing, but only time will tell. I spend more time with him now he speaks to me respectfully than I did when he wasn't able to. He knows 100% that any disrespect from him will involve an immediate end to the conversation and me leaving the situation (I still don't let him spend much time in my home - that's my space and sanctuary). I think in our case actions have spoken much more loudly than words.

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Alison,

You strike me as someone very well in touch and in control of your emotions. That is a very strong position to be in.

I'm not particularly worried that you will make a mistake with your vulnerability in either direction (either by shutting out your H or letting him back in). But keep posting if you do have that worry.

It does seem like you feel uncomfortable not knowing which direction to go and maybe that discomfort is taking up a lot of your headspace lately? Just an impression I have -- maybe granting yourself a healthy reprieve to let go of this question for awhile would help you carve out some mental space? Another one of those Zen paradoxical ideas...

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Hi Alison

I've just skimmed read through your thread, so apologies if I missed anything.

Firstly, you seem much more confident than you were before. I think you now know that you will be OK no matter what happens. When we start, none of us cannot see past a future without our spouses. We all say we can, but we don't really mean it. You also seem to be willing to take less sh!t from him. Before you were full of excuses, he's under a lot of pressure, he's really busy, he's going through some stuff (I'm paraphrasing), but now, you are putting the responsibility for his behaviour on him. That's a pretty significant change in mindset. You don't need to hear it from me, but you're going to be OK.

In regards to your last few posts. It's great that he recognises the need to work on himself and is seeing an IC. But introspection (particularly for people who are not good with taking responsibility for their actions) is a long and painful process. It takes strength to peel away the layers and face your demons. I am guessing he will at times go into himself at other times he will be emotionally needy and at other times he will lash out. Whether you have the strength to wait it out while he does this is up to you. To be honest, all you need to be is to be there (without demanding that you be part of his healing). Validate but don't allow yourself to be the fall guy. You'll either get tired of being his emotional crutch or he'll come round.

Unchien is right. He still occupies too much of your head. Even though your allowing him to be responsible for his actions, you [i] still [i] focus your attention too much on his actions. This is OK by the way, but it would be better if his actions spurred something in you instead of just on him.

Let go of the question of how you move forward and just be. Or, to give another zen-like paradox, the answers will come when you stop asking the question smile

Oh, well done for making sure he stays out of your home. This is one I am still having problems with (urghh).

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Originally Posted by unchien


It does seem like you feel uncomfortable not knowing which direction to go and maybe that discomfort is taking up a lot of your headspace lately? Just an impression I have -- maybe granting yourself a healthy reprieve to let go of this question for awhile would help you carve out some mental space? Another one of those Zen paradoxical ideas...


That is exactly and precisely it. I don't feel pressured by H and I don't feel worried, really, about his behaviour. I don't really trust him yet and that it what it is. I will interact with him in short doses outside my home while he continues to show me respect and a total lack of abusive behaviours, and I will see what happens. I don't worry about that decision, because I've already made it. I worry about what happens next, and the fact that I don't know. I think you're right and I just have to accept that I don't know and stop trying to unpick it and find an answer for myself.


Originally Posted by FlySolo


Unchien is right. He still occupies too much of your head. Even though your allowing him to be responsible for his actions, you [i] still [i] focus your attention too much on his actions. This is OK by the way, but it would be better if his actions spurred something in you instead of just on him.



Thanks Fly. And it is good to see you back here? You and Dilly and 97Hope went MIA all at the same time and I was a bit lonely here! And yes, I do think my focus is on him. Perhaps not for his own sake, but in terms of analysing his behaviour as a way to see if I can get an answer to what I want. And if I can just accept that I don't have the answer yet and concentrate on making my own life as happy as I can, that will never be wrong.

I have good GAL plans this week. Since H and I have become more relaxed and friendly he will come in the evenings and sit with Youngest (it really isn't great for Youngest to spend the night at his place on a school night or on the nights that H starts work at 7am) and hang out with Eldest a bit while I GAL. He's been very willing and flexible on that, which is great for me. So I am out for dinner with friends on Wednesday night. Thursday I take a visit to a city a couple of hour away for a work meeting, but am going to browse some shops afterwards as H is on childcare duty and no need to hurry home. Friday I am having a friend round to my place for a meal in the evening.

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Updating:

so, things continue pretty much as they were. There's a general atmosphere of friendliness between H and me when we see each other. Childcare and finances worked out amicably. I feel less wary around him, and he is doing a very careful job of respecting my boundaries. I can see he wants to be helpful to me and offers to do practical things above and beyond his responsibilities as a parent, and sometimes I take him up on that and sometimes I don't, and it feels okay. There have been one or two bumps in the road - misunderstandings about diary clashes or differences in parenting decisions - but without exception these past few weeks we have dealt with them through adult, calm and rational conversation. I've really appreciated that and told him so.

I've been concentrating more on my own life - connections with friends, making some improvements in the house, my work. Now and again I make a decision or a change in the house without asking or consulting with him, and half of the time it feels good and half of the time it feels really sad. I'm more than capable of running and managing and financing my own life, but now and again there are these little reminders that while we're friendly and co-operative, we're not currently a couple or in a marriage relationship and it is appropriate I take these decisions on my own without consulting with him and that's freeing and sad at the same time.

There are some financial matters to do with insurance that need discussing. He opted for some products that have no tie-in, so we can change our minds at any point without paying additional fees. And is splitting the cost 50/50. I guess that's the pattern we're in at the moment - a kind of holding pattern that either of us could get out of pretty easily at any time.

I am continuing with IC and finding it very helpful. I am finding it easier to manage my emotions - especially anger and anxiety and sadness - and feeling more confident in setting boundaries with myself and others with my children, at work and with H.

Something I am reflecting on this week is the difference between deception and privacy. I don't know much about H's social life and there's no reason that I would right now. Ditto he for mine. I am behaving as a married woman and don't see men socially alone. I have no idea what his boundaries are on that right now and it doesn't actually concern me that much. But there's a lot I keep from H for my own sense of self protection. He has no access to my current account and doesn't know I've been saving quite hard since he moved out. He doesn't know most of my friends, especially some new ones that have become really important to me. He knows nothing at all about my spiritual or religious life. I don't really talk to my friends about the marriage situation - other than one or two trusted female friends. My parents don't know H is living elsewhere, most of my work colleagues don't know. Sometimes I think I am pretending and living a lie and not being open and honest and having authentic relationships, and at other times I think I am having good boundaries and being private. I am not sure what the difference is and what the best decisions are here. Does anyone have any experience on this to share?

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Hi Alison

I think with telling people if you are a private person like me you will only tell people as and when you feel comfortable. It took me a couple of months to start telling people close to me and I did it in a trickle. Part of the reason was shame and embarrassment, but mainly because I’m a private person. Good luck!


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My experience is I know my W has told a lot of people that I've been unfaithful and is getting a D.
I know she's shown her sister, brother, and at least 1 of her friends all the evidence.
She is not broadcasting it on FB at all though. She told me she will not do that.

This is the thing. Lots of people don't know the full story yet.
I think it's normal to feel like you are hiding something. You will get new friends and so will he.


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Hi Alison,

I was glad to read your update today. It sounds like you are settling in and becoming more accepting and comfortable in your life without him. That is good to read. It is also good for newcomers to see that things do change and improve, albeit slowly or at times painfully, and we still move forward without them or the M. I think you are learning why we call this new way of life a marathon and not a sprint -- it takes a very, very long time for this stuff to unfold. I am glad he is being respectful and no longer making things difficult for you or the kids. Hopefully he is doing some self reflection and personal healing.

I don't see anything inauthentic about your decision to not share everything with him or your new friends and family, not at all! This is your life and you don't owe anyone explanations or answers. I think privacy and self preservation are healthy and normal. It is okay to say you don't feel like talking about something when asked or even answer that it's a private matter. There is a reason that you are not sharing and it may not feel safe for you for whatever reason. Trust your gut. You are doing great!

I am worried about Dilly tho. She never came back in the last month, did she?

Blu


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Hi Alison. I agree with what others have said. Who you tell and what you tell is entirely up to you and what is within your comfort zone. I’ve never been a super private person...my mom was and I remember she was horrified by me on occasion as I was the kid who would sit next to a stranger on a plane and tell them my life story. I think there are positives and negatives to that. The positive is that when you share things like this with other people, you get a lot of support and it feels less shameful as you will be surprised how many people have similar stories of their own. It also helps to make things more real and for me, it helped move me toward acceptance much quicker than I would have if I had kept everything to myself. The negative, which does not apply to my sitch, is that if you do decide to R, people in the know may or may not support you with this depending on how much of an a$$hole your spouse was to you during the process. I know in my sitch, my friends might support me but would think that I had lost my mind and self respect. On occasion, I have considered making a proclamation on FB about my divorce and my cheating spouse (during some of my more angry moments) but I know I would regret that at some point...he is still the father of my children and they deserve to have a good relationship with their dad even if he does not deserve it. So...maintaining a positive co-parenting relationship is my priority now even though there is a part of me that would love for him to get hit by the karma bus. Choosing better not bitter...lol. That phrase has saved me so many times!!!

Keep up the good work Alison. You are doing great! (((HUGS)))

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Thanks everyone. It is good to check in here - my question wasn't really to do with H - I see that when I read it back - but about me, and the healthiest way to live my own values and boundaries. I don't think I realised how much I've come on and grown until I re-read my last post and realised my intentions and hopes were really about myself, and not about having any particular effect on him. I want to be honest and have authentic relationships - perhaps one day with H. I also want to have good self protective boundaries and be selective about the people I trust. I am not letting H be emotionally close to me right now, though I do see him more often and we occasionally share a cup of tea together while going over our diaries and working things out re the kids. At times it feels like we're colleagues, or distant relatives. That is fine for now.

Blu - I never heard back from Dilly. Not 97Hope either. I think of them both very often. The three of us hung out here together and were probably as bad as each other in many ways (I mean that kindly and with a lot of self deprecation) and I feel the loss of their kind hearts posting to my thread.

Must catch up on other people's situations. It's been a while. Work has been busy and I find myself more and more involved with my own life, rather than examining the wreckage of my marriage. I think that's positive too.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I don't think I realised how much I've come on and grown until I re-read my last post and realised my intentions and hopes were really about myself, and not about having any particular effect on him. I want to be honest and have authentic relationships - perhaps one day with H. I also want to have good self protective boundaries and be selective about the people I trust.

I hope R2C adds this to his quote thread. So well stated.

It is hard to struggle with wanting authenticity and honesty at the same time you are experiencing a huge upheaval to your life that requires keeping people at arm's distance. It's also hard to change the dynamic of pre-existing relationships.

I like to think of authenticity as something that happens naturally when one lives completely in touch with one's values. It does not mean being open to all. When I think of it this way, it removes the pressure to "seek out" authenticity in relationships, and instead let it just happen naturally.

Whether or not that makes sense, your posts make it sound like you are on the right track.

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That makes a lot of sense to me. I guess I'm reflecting on this because it is a change for me. I wasn't authentic in my marriage. I went along with a lot of stuff I didn't like because I wanted to placate my H, or because I thought there was something wrong with me when I had preferences different from his - a view he encouraged.

We bumped into this again this week. H is concerned about Youngest's school work. I don't know exactly why - and I have asked - given that both of her teachers are very pleased with her progress and have said she's in the top of her class group. She does her homework and I get good reports on her work and behaviour at school. I've seen both of her teachers once or twice in the last six months and do homework with her daily. H isn't really involved in the day to day, hasn't met her teachers and doesn't do homework with her. Despite this he's convinced he knows better and she's behind. Based on what I do not know.

I'm pretty annoyed he's raised this with her and damaged her confidence. In the past I would have stayed silent, agreed with him to keep the peace, or felt upset and guilty because somehow it was my fault that she wasn't doing well enough at school. I noticed a change in myself in how I handled it.

I said, 'look, if you're concerned, you're welcome to speak to her teacher, but I am not concerned, I am in touch with her teachers who have told me she is doing really well and aren't worried about her work, and I don't think telling her that you don't think she's doing well enough is in her best interests at all. So I don't want to have this conversation with you again and I am asking that you don't tell Youngest you think she's doing badly because she isn't,' and I've held that boundary. Obviously I can't control how he speaks to Youngest, but I have made a clear request to him and I will have to leave it at that.

I'm a bit rattled by it and I can't figure out why. He has very exacting standards, but instead of taking action (like making an appointment with her teacher, or deciding to hire a tutor, or spending more time than he does (none) on doing her homework with her, he prefers to dump his complaints on me - and when I'm not available for that - on our child. I think that's hugely inappropriate. I don't want to over-react to this and I am okay with how I've handled it so far, but it is a very clear sign to me that at times he's still in that mindset of controlling, whining, complaining and dumping when he feels anxious about something rather than soothing himself and taking appropriate positive action. I also feel a bit anxious and triggered - remembering how bloody awful my life was when it was all about making sure he was happy and the kids were behaving exactly as he wanted them to. I'm never going to go back to that life. And I am not sure he really knows how to be happy unless his anxieties are soothed by the compliance of those around him. I hope for his sake he manages to resolve that some day, but today I am mainly grateful I don't have to be doing that any more.

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Aww Alison. Look at you. So strong and calm and together. Good for you. You’ve taken back Alison from the chaos and drama. It’s uplifting to read. It’s liberating when you drop that rope and free yourself from the expectations and the dancing around to try to keep them on an even keel.

You handled the school thing perfectly I think. I suspect his motivations are complex. There’s a bit of chest beating Going on. I’m the man of the house. You don’t appear to need me so I’ll show you that you need me for something whilst I work out why it’s all slipping away from me. I’ll throw you a problem to see if you still need me. There’s usually a bit of your not the boss of me going on as well. He’ll think what he likes. And some arrogance. He’s right, you’re wrong.

Glad you didn’t get drawn in. Shows strength. Boundaries show strength. I bet he’s noticed and it’ll start him wondering.

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I feel much more settled. Being rattled and annoyed only lasted for a couple of hours. Co-parenting will be like this - sometimes we will disagree and he's free to take action (like getting a tutor, or taking a more hand-on role with the homework, or speaking to the teachers) if as her parent he sees fit to do so. What is no longer on his menu of options is to berate and moan and complain at me about it, and I have total control over that. It is such a relief. I used to really care if he thought I was a bad parent or failing my children or not acting in their best interests. But now I know I am doing what I think is best, and if and when I make a mistake I will correct it, and that's good enough and his opinion of me isn't really any of my business nor of particular interest.

If this is dropping the rope, how does piecing work? I can't imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship where my job is to convince someone else of my worthiness of love and respect ever again. I don't plan on doing that with him or with anyone else. Does that mean I will be spending the rest of my time alone?

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK

If this is dropping the rope, how does piecing work? I can't imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship where my job is to convince someone else of my worthiness of love and respect ever again. I don't plan on doing that with him or with anyone else. Does that mean I will be spending the rest of my time alone?


Hi Alison. Good to hear you have dropped the rope. It is a very hard thing to do, and I would seem to think that it's something all LBS have to constantly work at.

I think piecing begins to happen when the WAS starts to wake up out of the fog and begins to pursue the LBS. Of course by that point the LBS may have decided that they do not want to be with someone like the WAS anymore, or they may in fact have moved on to a new R. I think a lot of this depends on the time it takes the WAS to go through their issues and how patient the LBS is.

You won't spend the rest of your time alone if you don't want to. You have the control here on how long you choose to stand and on if or when you decide to move on.

For me, it's been a little over a year now. Granted I am still IHS, but for all intents and purposes, that is how long I have been alone. It was awful for half a year, now I am used to it - but very saddened by it bc it is not what i want.

But i also know that this is all still a period of transition and my story is not finished yet. It seems that yours is not either.

Hang in there, and stay strong smile

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
If this is dropping the rope, how does piecing work?


Oh man. Have you kept up on Steve's threads? It really highlights the ups and downs of piecing. It's hard work. It's difficult for the LBS to learn to trust the WAS again, and it's tough for the WAS to commit and not stray back to old ways. It's actually a lot easier to start a new R with someone else in my opinion. I'm not saying it's not worth the hard work, but just strictly from an effort point of view a new R is so much easier.

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I can't imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship where my job is to convince someone else of my worthiness of love and respect ever again. I don't plan on doing that with him or with anyone else. Does that mean I will be spending the rest of my time alone?


Not at all, BD makes us feel worthless and unworthy of others but as we recover and start meeting people/ flirting/ talking and eventually dating, we realize we are so far above that kind of treatment. We are high-value! We're loyal, dependable, stable people. The kind of people that others out there are actively searching for. You'll eventually realize that others need to prove their worth to you, not the other way around.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Not at all, BD makes us feel worthless and unworthy of others but as we recover and start meeting people/ flirting/ talking and eventually dating, we realize we are so far above that kind of treatment. We are high-value! We're loyal, dependable, stable people. The kind of people that others out there are actively searching for. You'll eventually realize that others need to prove their worth to you, not the other way around.


I do feel like this, and I am glad to. But I meant something slightly different. If I can clarify?

It struck me the other day that I really don't care what H thinks of my parenting decisions. I'd prefer it if we could co-operate peacefully, and most of the time we do right now. And that's great. But now and again I will do something I think is best and he won't like it, and he's going to have to live with that. I'm confident that I am a good enough parent most of the time and that when I make mistakes, they are errors and not instances of abuse.

That's a huge thing for me because I spent my life trying to please and placate him and get his approval and feeling like a deep down terrible person unless I had it. Obviously I don't think I am a perfect parent - I can and will make mistakes, and when I do I will correct them, and again, I don't particularly care what H thinks of that.

So I wondered, if this is dropping the rope and the healthy way to go about things, how do people build healthy relationships when they don't really care that much about what the other one thinks of them?

I realise this is an awkward and clumsy question - probably betraying my innocence in what an adult healthy relationship actually looks like. And I mean it theoretically as I'm not piecing, don't really intend to start anything with anyone else, and am just curious about what I don't know and haven't experienced myself.

How can a marriage work when both parties are healthy and differentiated and detached from the opinions of the other? What does that look like when there is disagreement?

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK


So I wondered, if this is dropping the rope and the healthy way to go about things, how do people build healthy relationships when they don't really care that much about what the other one thinks of them?


Wow - since I read your post, I have been thinking about this all morning, Alison.

I'm no relationship expert and I'm so far from piecing it's not even an option at this point, but in my opinion at some level, at least a small part of us has to care what our partner thinks of us. Otherwise what is the point of being in a relationship?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but to me there has to be some level of reciprocated feelings, and those feelings would seem to indicate that your partner does care.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

How can a marriage work when both parties are healthy and differentiated and detached from the opinions of the other? What does that look like when there is disagreement?


To me, all marriages require some level of attachment. It's kind of the definition of marriage, IMO. I think detachment is necessary for those of us in troubled R's - as a way to distance ourselves and protect ourselves from the chaos emanating from our WAS's.

I think the balance between differentiation, detachment and attachment all hinges on whether the relationship is a healthy one or not. All manner of grievances or mistakes are potentially forgivable in a healthy R, while this is not the case at all in an unhealthy R.

I've always thought of a healthy MR as having 3 separate entities. The 2 partners individually and the 3rd being the Marital unit of the combined two.

Of course, differentiatiating yourself in an MR is never a finished task - it is always something that you have to work at.
That is one of my own personal issues that I am working on - I made the error of not evolving in the R.

Others will probably have different views - but that's my take on it.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK

It struck me the other day that I really don't care what H thinks of my parenting decisions. I'd prefer it if we could co-operate peacefully, and most of the time we do right now. And that's great. But now and again I will do something I think is best and he won't like it, and he's going to have to live with that. I'm confident that I am a good enough parent most of the time and that when I make mistakes, they are errors and not instances of abuse.

That's a huge thing for me because I spent my life trying to please and placate him and get his approval and feeling like a deep down terrible person unless I had it. Obviously I don't think I am a perfect parent - I can and will make mistakes, and when I do I will correct them, and again, I don't particularly care what H thinks of that.

So I wondered, if this is dropping the rope and the healthy way to go about things, how do people build healthy relationships when they don't really care that much about what the other one thinks of them?

I realise this is an awkward and clumsy question - probably betraying my innocence in what an adult healthy relationship actually looks like. And I mean it theoretically as I'm not piecing, don't really intend to start anything with anyone else, and am just curious about what I don't know and haven't experienced myself.

How can a marriage work when both parties are healthy and differentiated and detached from the opinions of the other? What does that look like when there is disagreement?

Alison -

I'm piggy-backing off IW here, and also speculating more than stating facts.

I think healthy relationships can involve attachment. But it is a secure attachment where each person is self-differentiated and supports both the relationship AND each other's individual needs and desires.

I can see where this gets cloudy. Are you doing something nice for your partner to please them and seek approval, or because you love them? It's confusing, and this is why I suspect I will proceed cautiously in any future relationship (including the possibility of reconciliation).

I sense you have this new-found confidence and self-awareness in your values. You are confident and assertive about your decisions. This does not mean you don't care about what someone else thinks. It just happens your H is judging you harshly, and in a way where you cannot have a reasonable conversation. In a healthy relationship, I imagine your partner would support your decisions, or if they disagreed at least have a respectful, honest, open discussion about them.

I don't know if this will resonate with you. You know about my story of grabbing my son's leg. My W calls this abuse. I call it a parenting lapse where I wish I had restrained my emotions better and handled it more calmly. I do not dismiss what I did, but at the same time, my son was not physically hurt, and it was unconditionally not abuse. I wish rather than taking a judgmental and aggressive stance, we could have had an open, honest, caring discussion about how to make better decisions. Even if we disagreed somewhat.

One last point: When you don't care as much about what other people think, that enables you to be a more open and honest person which I suspect will naturally draw other like-minded people.

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Thanks for your posts. I've been mulling them over for a good few days now, especially in the light of a couple of parenting type talks that H and I have had recently.

His opinion is that I was so permissive with the children, and such a door-mat, that he was forced to be the disciplinarian and he was much stricter and more critical than he wanted to be because he was making up for what he saw as my deficiencies and the impact they were having on the children.

I could equally say the same thing - he was so strict and critical and berating of them, that I didn't want to add to it, and found myself offering comfort and understanding when I could see the kids were hurt by his harshness, lack of love and affection and praise.

I guess 'who started it' doesn't matter (we're not in agreement on that - his pride doesn't allow him to let that part of the narrative go!!) but resolving it does. We are in agreement that we both need to move a little bit more into the middle - that I'm a bit firmer and more boundaried with the kids, and he offers more praise, love and affection and checks the emotionally and verbally abusive tendencies in the way he speaks to them. I can say that we both have been doing that.

It's interesting though. I WAS a doormat with the kids - for whatever reason - but I was with him too. And I think the irony escapes him that in wanting me to be firmer in my boundaries with the kids, I've also been firmer in my boundaries with him. You can't have one without the other. That's worked much better for me and I feel more centered and happier and generally more 'safe' in my interactions with him. I don't see so much of the verbal and emotional abuse any more. He's stopped that, and he's also started being - well not affectionate - but complimentary of my parenting now and again, and much warmer and friendlier in interactions overall.

What's sad, and is where I am at the moment, is that I am struggling to feel respect for him. He has a lot of issues which he claims he is working on in IC - and that's his business. He works hard and is reliable and dependable - he meets his responsibilities financially without my reminding or nagging him, he is fairly involved, giving his working patterns, with the kids school lives and extra curricular stuff - he's not an 'absent' dad. He's taking care of himself and his health much better, and that's good too.

Where I struggle to find respect is in his need for dominance. It's not coming out as verbal or emotional abuse any more - perhaps just because I don't see him that much - but I do see it in his inability to take responsibility. He still can't apologise. He made a pretty minor mistake the other morning - blamed it on Eldest (who reacted angrily) and when he realised his mistake, instead of climbing down and owning it, said that Eldest's reaction was the thing that needed dealing with. Eldest did need to go elsewhere and calm down, and I did have a firm conversation with him about communicating through words and not through slamming doors - but at the same time, he's a teenage boy who has been through a lot, and is incredibly frustrated, and in that situation he was right, he was not being listened to, and I'd have been frustrated to. Eldest said: 'he should have said sorry to me, but he just can't - he's not strong enough,' and while I listened and did not badmouth H to Eldest, I thought he was exactly right.

A man who is not strong enough to admit when he's made a mistake - however minor - and is not able to apologise is not a man I can respect. I've noticed he can admit fault at work - but only to his 'superiors' and this leads me to wonder if there's a bit part of him that considers wife and children to be 'inferior'. I don't know this for sure. But I do know I am only interested in a relationship with a man strong enough to be vulnerable, and honest enough to treat his children with respect and care and me as an equal.

It's a shame - because day to day things are going well, and I think we would be on the road to piecing in some form or another if I didn't feel this undercurrent of disappointment and lack of respect for him. He deserves a wife who can admire and respect him, and who can feel proud of him. I don't need him to be perfect. But I do need him to be comfortable with not being perfect himself and have some humility. And he's just not that person.

I think the key here is to step back a bit more, to be honest. I won't diminish him to his children as that is not to their benefit, but I can listen empathically to Eldest while holding him to a standard of respectful and polite behaviour. I can admit my own mistakes and shortcomings and work on them. That feels like more than enough to be getting on with right now.

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I did have a question in there, actually!!

Which is, in mature relationships, you'd expect it not to be all wide-eyed adoration and admiration, but also include an admission of and an acceptance of the spouse's shortcomings. I'd hope to be in a relationship where my spouse could accept my shortcomings. I can accept that I am not perfect and I am working on my flaws.

Is it a flaw in me that I am unable to accept this shortcoming of his? His inability to be vulnerable enough to say sorry? That feels like a pretty big deal to me - a deal-breaker - and that isn't something I say lightly. The ability to take responsibility, to say sorry and to make repairs seems to me to be a fundamental part of being a mature adult and one of the foundations of a healthy relationship. Am I wrong in this?

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Accepting flaws is a good thing. I've only come to that way of thinking recently (annoyingly!).

Owning your flaws and addressing them/improving them is a great attitude to take. Means the next time your S sees you, you'll be portraying a somewhat "lighter" demeanour as you'd have dealt with more things since the last time they saw you. For your H, his shortcomings are not your problem. It is up to him to decide to deal with them.

My situation is slightly different to yours in that I'm the one who has wronged my W, but she has walked and started D whereas I wanted MC and R.
She is most certainly not perfect. She has tons of flaws - disorganised, scatty, hypochondriac, fear that she's not liked, loud, opinionated - but I accepted them. Yes they annoyed me sometimes but not enough to quit a R or M with her.

I don't think it's a bad thing that you don't accept this inability to apologise. That's slightly different - it is a fundamental thing I agree. Taking responsibility, analysing your mistake and working on it, and make amends is a positive thing for anyone whether they're in a R/M or not. Mature way of thinking? Definitely.


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I don't want to tip over into self righteousness. I want to let him go his own way, and instead concentrate on where I find apologies hard. My H was abusive and I allowed that to happen - to the detriment and damage of myself and also, more importantly, my children. But that doesn't let me off the hook for the various ways in which I failed him as a wife. I want to concentrate on that, without putting all my effort into 'attracting him back' because I don't know if I want him back!

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I did have a question in there, actually!!

Which is, in mature relationships, you'd expect it not to be all wide-eyed adoration and admiration, but also include an admission of and an acceptance of the spouse's shortcomings. I'd hope to be in a relationship where my spouse could accept my shortcomings. I can accept that I am not perfect and I am working on my flaws.

Is it a flaw in me that I am unable to accept this shortcoming of his? His inability to be vulnerable enough to say sorry? That feels like a pretty big deal to me - a deal-breaker - and that isn't something I say lightly. The ability to take responsibility, to say sorry and to make repairs seems to me to be a fundamental part of being a mature adult and one of the foundations of a healthy relationship. Am I wrong in this?

Alison,

In healthy relationships, partners accept each other's shortcomings, support each other, compromise, and have open and honest discussions. I know this to be true even though I can't say I've experienced it yet myself. I hope one day to find it!

But even in those relationships there will always be some sort of conflict. I think it's all about how you work as a couple to resolve the conflict. It sounds like you have made a little progress with your H - whether or not you end up piecing, it's encouraging to hear that you are able to work together better than before, if only for your children's sake.

Regarding your H's inability to say sorry, it is what it is. I sense you are questioning your feelings and judging them, rather than just accepting what they are. Your H used to be emotionally and verbally abusive - he has toned it down, but you see echoes of his prior behaviors in his inability to apologize, and perhaps more importantly, his inability to accept responsibility in situations such as the conflict with your eldest. It makes sense to me that you can't completely ignore the past, and would also question his changes. Is he just changing outward behaviors, or has he changed the fundamental thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that drive those behaviors?

Unfortunately it's common for men to struggle with apologizing and saying sorry. Many men are too proud. Others feel sorry underneath but struggle with being vulnerable enough to open up as it does not feel "masculine." Other men will overly apologize as a symptom of NGS - I call this the false apology because they tend to feel bad about themselves rather than own their behavior.

I don't think you are wrong in wanting a man who can apologize and own up to his behavior. I also think it is reasonable to question whether your H is capable of the changes you would like to see. Change is hard and grueling.

Regarding your H going to IC, is he sharing what he works on there? My W goes to IC and I have no clue what they work on, but after 6 months I see no changes. My own experience in IC has been that it is a great supplement to personal growth, but the impetus for my changes came from outside IC. I would not hold out hope that IC is necessarily going to initiate change.

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Originally Posted by unchien

In healthy relationships, partners accept each other's shortcomings, support each other, compromise, and have open and honest discussions. I know this to be true even though I can't say I've experienced it yet myself. I hope one day to find it!

But even in those relationships there will always be some sort of conflict. I think it's all about how you work as a couple to resolve the conflict. It sounds like you have made a little progress with your H - whether or not you end up piecing, it's encouraging to hear that you are able to work together better than before, if only for your children's sake.


Yes - I think it would be unhealthy if there were NO conflict - given that two fully functioning human beings are going to have different needs and preferences and ways of seeing the world. In the past, H generally thought that there were 'facts' and 'the right way to do things' and 'mistakes' and 'wrong ways to do things' whereas I often thought that we had different approaches and styles, both of which had pros and cons. He seems to have softened on this a LOT over the past few months and I do see him taking more account of what I bring to parenting and my own perspectives and experiences are a little more valued than they used to be, even if they differ from his. It's refreshing, and it does make the task of positive co-parenting easier.

Originally Posted by unchien
Regarding your H's inability to say sorry, it is what it is. I sense you are questioning your feelings and judging them, rather than just accepting what they are. Your H used to be emotionally and verbally abusive - he has toned it down, but you see echoes of his prior behaviors in his inability to apologize, and perhaps more importantly, his inability to accept responsibility in situations such as the conflict with your eldest. It makes sense to me that you can't completely ignore the past, and would also question his changes. Is he just changing outward behaviors, or has he changed the fundamental thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that drive those behaviors?


That is EXACTLY it. I can't ignore the past, in that my first priority - beyond piecing and even beyond positive co-parenting, is that I will not be subject to his abuse nor subject my children to it ever again. That's more important than anything. And he is not being abusive. But I don't know if that's because he's restraining himself and the restraint is easier as he is less stressed, in a mentally healthier place and seeing us all a lot less, or because the fundemental attitudes and believes that led to his abusive behaviours have changed. I don't know that, and until I do know it I don't want to get closer to him. I also need to factor in that I will be examining pretty benign and minor conflicts through a lens of fearfulness and wariness - if you expect the worst, you often find it. I'd much rather be safe than sorry though. (And I mean emotionally safe - I don't really fear that he would physically harm myself or the children).

Originally Posted by unchien
Regarding your H going to IC, is he sharing what he works on there? My W goes to IC and I have no clue what they work on, but after 6 months I see no changes. My own experience in IC has been that it is a great supplement to personal growth, but the impetus for my changes came from outside IC. I would not hold out hope that IC is necessarily going to initiate change.


He is not. I am not sure if he would be open to doing that. He did share a few things, a couple of months ago, but I didn't comment or ask for more information and he hasn't done it again. I could ask, and I could show more interest, but my feeling is that he needs to do this for himself, regardless of what I feel or think about it. I don't talk to him at all about my IC and I never have - though he doesn't ask me. He has in the past spoken quite cruelly about my IC (called it 'mumbo jumbo' and used it as evidence that I am unstable or my perceptions are based in emotions and not in facts and so can be dismissed) but he has stopped doing that completely now.

I do see evidence of change, and that might be to do with his IC. He is a much better listener then he used to be and makes many more empathic statements, like 'I can see how it would feel that way to you' and 'I understand that given our past this is something you'd be wary about'. I have not seen him angry or impatient for a very long time, and other than some minor skirmishes about parenting - when he did not resort to belittling language or sarcasm at all - things have been peaceful.

I know he wants me to come with him to see his IC. He mentioned that a couple of weeks ago, and said that his IC had said it would be useful to get my perspective on things. I said I'd think about it - though in the moment my heart sank as in my experience, giving him my perspective on things only opens the door for him to tell me that I'm wrong, lying, deluded, irrational, manipulative, over-emotional etc. I think I could communicate with him better now, in non-blaming language. I don't know how open he is to actually valuing my different experience and perception when it comes to more difficult topics about our marriage. I also don't have anything to say to him that I haven't said before, and presumably if he wanted to cast his mind back he could recall what I'd said in the past and take that to his IC. I haven't shared these thoughts with him.

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Originally Posted by unchien

Is he just changing outward behaviors, or has he changed the fundamental thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that drive those behaviors?


I have spent a long time reflecting on this.

Day to day, I am seeing lots of changes with my H and though I'd still consider it to be early days, he has been more or less consistent with those changes. He is not perfect and I am not waiting for perfection. But the behaviours I absolutely cannot accept any longer have stopped. The man is allowed to be irritable or to have different opinions from me now and again - and we seem to deal with that (in the context of friendly co-parenting) well enough.

I guess I will just have to trust there's been an inward change, or decide I don't trust the inward change, and that is on me. There is no looking into anyone's soul.

I can also see he is in a similar position - seeing that I am much more emotionally and practically self sufficient (which was a change that was needed) and much more confident in setting boundaries with the kids (and him!). He will never know for sure if these are just outward changes or actual inward ones.

He mentioned how well things were going and said he had a fear of being 'sucked back' to how things used to be. I validated. I told him I felt like that too - that the way things were now was much better - we even laugh and have a bit of warmth and affection creeping back in, in a natural way - but I think in some ways we're both holding each other at arm's length a little, afraid to address the real problems in case we get back into that horrible place we were in last year and for the first half of this year.

I do feel ready to take a tiny step forward with him, but I am not sure how to do that. I am not sure I want to go with him to see his IC. That should be for him. But I am also afraid of pulling back the curtain and addressing the hard stuff in case it wipes out this fragile gentleness and goodwill we have managed to find for each other again.

We walk together alone once a week - just for an hour or so. It gives us time to catch up on the kids without them actually being there - which was needed - but recently the conversations have turned more towards ourselves - his work, my work, his friendships and my friendships - without us actually discussing our relationship. I don't feel afraid of him during these conversations but I am afraid of taking it into more difficult territory.

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Alison -

This all sounds really really positive, regardless of how your M turns out. Taking it slow seems like the right approach. Do you feel a sense of urgency like your H is pressuring you to take a step forward? If not, it sounds like you are making great progress in your communication with each other on your weekly walks, so as long as those continue, you are still making strides.

Also you made a point early in your thread about allowing him to be irritable. I also take this as a good sign - in that he is in control of his emotions and comfortable enough in expressing his views without regressing into old patterns. Someone who is faking it may seem overly pleasant all the time.

Take all this with a grain of salt... I'm only reacting to your post, and you know your H.

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Alison - any updates?

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Hi everyone

it's been a long time since I posted. Time for an update, I think?

So - I am still seeing my IC. We're still working on my childhood, and at times it is difficult and upsetting but I am generally seeing progress. I feel a little more confident in setting boundaries with my children and others, and more compassionate towards myself when I find those things difficult. I can see how many of my decisions as an adult - especially in how I decided to handle myself and my emotions in my marriage - were powered as much by fears implanted in me by a toxic childhood as they were rational responses to pretty shoddy behaviour on the part of my husband. I am not at the bottom of this and perhaps I never will be. But I see improvement.

H is back in the family home. It was a quick decision - perhaps too quick - and it has not been easy. I wanted him to come back, he wanted to be here, legally I did not have a right to prevent him from being here. He tells me he feels like he has more space - is more able to be open about his feelings, feels more respected as a parent and sees me doing the 'hard' stuff of parenting more often. I'm glad to hear that from him. He is definitely more affectionate and respectful of Eldest, and spends good time with Youngest. There has been no hint of violent or aggressive behaviour, coercion or manipulation from him. The criticism has been dialled right down. He's grumpy now and again - but we all are. In some aspects of our lives I see him being more adult and taking more responsibility. In others, I see the same passivity and blaming of others that I saw so much before BD and in the aftermath of it. I have no concerns about EA or PA from him at all - he is open and transparent about where he is and what he's up to - though generally he's either working or at home.

Me - I am ambivalent. Extremely. I need to think more - especially in my IC - about how my ambivalence is actually a way of protecting me from making a decision. When I feel sad - which is reasonably often - it feels like I am left to choose between a sub-standard marriage to a man whose flaws are very apparent to me - or the pains and emotional and practical discomforts of a divorce. Neither seem particularly attractive right now. I have GAL. I see my friends often. I am taking care of my health. I do my share in the house. My work is going well and I have applied for that promotion, which I will hear about soon.

But being stuck here with regards to my marriage keeps me in a 'victim' position and means I don't have to make any changes. I do realise that. I also realise my ambivalence is self inflicted. I have the financial independence and information I need to go for a divorce. I would manage on my own okay, even if it was painful for a long time. It feels like the easier option. It feels very frightening to me to commit to working on a marriage with a man who is so flawed. I can't say he is abusive, as he was, but he isn't who I wish he was. I feel utterly disillusioned. I tend not to bother bringing things up with him these days as I feel I can predict how he'll respond and I'm not interested in hearing the usual responses. I do think he prefers that and I do think he is also making effort to be different as far as he can. I know I need to be different to, but other than self-reliance, GAL and STFU, I don't know how to make that difference in myself. I do know that outlining to him what it is I am unhappy with has never provoked change or empathy and I have little faith doing it again would.

He has carried on seeing his IC but let the appointments slip from weekly, to fortnightly, to three weekly. I don't know the last time he went on his own. I made a boundary that I didn't want to hear about his sessions - they were private to him (I believe he was weaponising his reports of them) and that has been useful for me. We have an appointment to see his IC together in a couple of weeks. Again - I feel ambivalent about that.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me to get out of this ambivalence? Obviously I am making a choice - he didn't force himself into the family home - I said it was what I wanted to. I do have choices. It's just none of them seem that appealing. I don't want to be in this mindset. I want to pick an option and work towards it wholeheartedly, having faith that it will improve things for me and my children, even if it is difficult or painful in the short term. I know there are no guarantees and that I will need to be resilient enough to bear some risk. I am not sure the 'prize' of being in a marriage with the man who I am currently living with is enough of an incentive to put myself through the pain and risk of wholeheartedly making a repair. Am I looking at this in the wrong way?

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Does anyone have any suggestions for me to get out of this ambivalence? Obviously I am making a choice - he didn't force himself into the family home - I said it was what I wanted to. I do have choices. It's just none of them seem that appealing. I don't want to be in this mindset. I want to pick an option and work towards it wholeheartedly, having faith that it will improve things for me and my children, even if it is difficult or painful in the short term. I know there are no guarantees and that I will need to be resilient enough to bear some risk. I am not sure the 'prize' of being in a marriage with the man who I am currently living with is enough of an incentive to put myself through the pain and risk of wholeheartedly making a repair. Am I looking at this in the wrong way?


Hi Alison, thanks for the update, good to hear from you again! The ambivalence, well your H abused you and stripped the love out of the marriage so that is an understandable reaction. Do you know what the opposite of love is? Not hate, it's ambivalence. You cease to care. How do you get the love back? Well it's not easy. It doesn't really sound like your H is doing anything to reignite the love, sounds almost like he moved back in because it was the lesser of whatever evils he's facing down. Here is my suggestion- have you read 5LL? If not then please do so. Try and appeal to him through his love language. The book talks about how marriages die because both spouses are sitting back doing nothing while waiting for the other to fill their "love tank". So they both sit on empty, and over time resentment starts to build. But if one starts using 5LL to fill the other's love tank, then before they know it the other wants to fill theirs as well. It's human nature- we want to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. So if I think my GF is being cold and distant, then I want to "punish" her for it but if she is showing me love then I am looking for ways to show it back to her. So you might try that, the worst that can happen is it gets no response from him. But you're ambivalent anyway, so a lack of a response from him isn't going to crush you. And at least you will have tried something rather than just waiting for things to change on their own (which will never happen).


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Hi Alison!

I was so glad that you came back and updated! I don't post much, but I often check and look for posters, including you and Dilly. I hope she is well!

I like the advice that AS offered you. 5 LL is a great book for anyone to read in any R because it helps us to understand that we give and receive love differently. M H is acts of service all the way. He is constantly helping at work, at home, is a natural care taker, and he likes fixing things and getting things done. I tend to see those things as our daily job and don't see them as showing love. After all, I do similar deeds and it's because I have to. I have to stop and recognize are perceptions are different and it's not so much about the actions alone. When i show appreciations for his actions it means a lot to him. He is showing me he loves me every time he goes to Costco or cleans out the garage. My LL is more quality time. We are wired differently.

Ambivalence (you use that word a lot) is your protective mechanism! It is important not to ignore it. If you feel like a dark alley is sketchy, you will not blindly walk through it. Your M and your H were not safe for a long time. Of course you are not going to jump back in! I think you are starting to understand why some of us say this takes such a looonnnnggggg time. All of it does -- the moving on or the R. You are still on the fence a bit.

From my perspective you are just where you need to be. I think it is okay that things are not steadily moving in one direction or the other. Why not just continue on as is, see your IC, focus on your day to day life, and continue to create moments of joy. In time, just maybe a much longer time, things will become more clear for you.

Please come back soon, we care about you :-)

Blu


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Thank you AS. I have read the 5LL. I don't know for sure what language H's is, but I think it is probably Acts of Service and I could do better in showing love in that way. When I first read your post - a day or two ago now - my first thought was 'well why should I do work for him to help him feel loved when I feel so unloved myself?' but I know that's what the book is about and somebody has to go first. I will think on this and try to take some action today and tomorrow. I notice that at least once a day H is trying to express love to me using his LL and will bring me coffee or do some household task that is usually mine. He will occasionally initiate intimacy. Neither of those things mean much to me as they don't feel like the 'real' him. I am not able to be responsive to him in bed very often. He doesn't pressure me at all and is generally understanding so long as I pretend I have a headache or am just tired. If I tell him the truth - I don't feel responsive because I don't feel emotionally safe or cherished as a result of his nastiness - then he gets annoyed. I don't see the nasty side of him so much any more, but I have this impression that it's in there, and anything other than that is just fake and I can't let myself fall for it. And I try to hide feeling like that as I know it doesn't get either of us anywhere.

I feel depressed today. Just deep-down, bone-deep sad. I don't bring this sadness to my H very often, because no matter how I try to phrase it (I know about I-statements and non-blaming language) he takes it as a criticism, and when he feels criticised he comes out fighting and can be vicious. Even if my sadness is nothing to do with him he's more likely to offer critical statements aimed at helping me to see why my sadness is of my own making (and yes, sometimes that is true) than he is to offer comfort. I have tried telling him that what I need is just comfort, a hug, some reassurance, and he says - sometimes - that he isn't an infinite resource of soothing. Perhaps I am too sad and ask for too much. Perhaps I need to get better at just moving through this sadness. If that's the case then I am willing to accept it, but I don't know where it leaves our marriage.

I suppose the reason I am sad can't be comforted away anyway. He's just a man with some deeply unpleasant qualities that have hurt me. I hoped he'd be my safe place and the person in my corner and on my side and he just isn't. He won't ever not be the man who did the things he did. I am terribly deep down disappointed in that. The fact that he's changed a little and is making efforts and is back in the family home doesn't really change the way I feel about him. Of course he will be able to sense that.

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Blu - I crossed with you. Thank you. This is good advice. I will try to give it more time. I feel very sad today. I guess I had my H up on a pedestal for a long time and this is a kind of emotional hang-over, knowing that whatever happens from here on out he will always be the man who did those things. I wish none of it had happened.

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I am feeling better today. Have had some time to reflect. Whatever my H has been in the past and whoever he is now, I need to concentrate on my side of things. I do want my marriage to work if it can, and if it ends, I want to know I did whatever I could on my own side of things. That means setting boundaries, not accepting the unacceptable, but it also means learning to let go of resentment without going back to the doormat I was, and it means accepting he has done me harm and trying to love him in a way that means something to him.

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Journalling and a question.

I have been concentrating on the good the last few days. We have been preparing for Christmas. H has been happy and affectionate with the kids and with me: he brought breakfast in bed this morning and we have plans to take the kids out on a special festive trip later this week. My family will be around for Christmas and I know he's not going to find that comfortable, but he agreed to it and he hasn't complained or been PA about it. He also expressed to me what he'd need in the run-up and afterwards (some decompression time) which is fair and reasonable and it feels good that he's expressing what he needs in a positive way.

I am going to his IC with him in a couple of days. Not sure how to approach it. I want to listen, mainly, and I do feel a bit intimidated and self-projective (which is wise). If there's an opportunity to discuss any of my needs, it would be to do with his communication style - his tendency to attack, blame or withdraw whenever I ask for anything. I don't feel I ever get 'heard' in our relationship, and the peace we've had recently is as much to do with me asking for less or nothing at all than it is to do with him listening. I'd like to raise that, and I am afraid to - given that when he feels criticised (even mildly, no matter how I phrase things) it's generally quite unpleasant and we are on the run up to Christmas. But I don't want to be a doormat any more. I will listen and go gently and see what happens. Does anyone with experience of MC after a separation have any suggestions for me?

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Alison ~

My only suggestion is that you state exactly what you feel. It is a valid need to want to feel heard and understood in a relationship.

He may recoil. He may be passive-aggressive. He may feel criticized.

If you suppress your needs, it will not promote a healthy relationship. Yes, it's scary. But if your H cannot accept that you want to improve your communication with him.....

Would you rather ask for what you want, and potentially have some relationship conflict as a result?
Or would you rather suppress what you want, and later regret that you never asked, and feel like a doormat?

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Hi unchien

thanks for your reply. I see what you mean: I have to articulate what my feelings and needs are to have any hope of a healthier relationship, rather than swallow everything in the name of peace. It isn't conflict really that I am trying to avoid - I am okay with us disagreeing and taking time to talk through a disagreement. I am okay with agreeing to disagree, or compromising - I would welcome that. But there are behaviours of his that I am not okay with and I want them to stop, and my asking for them to stop never ever ever has a good outcome.

Sometimes - I would say at least once a week or so, maybe more (and I am not talking historically, I am talking since he returned to the family home) H will do impressions of me being upset and crying and saying things that in real life I didn't and don't ever say. When he starts like this it's very weird - he can't seem to stop, even if I move away out of the room and ignore him for a while. It's hard to explain. But if he's angry or feels criticised he will resort to this. He'll hunch over and pull a horrible face and rub his eyes and speak in a high pitched voice and say 'oh, poor me, I'm such a victim, I've got such a horrible husband,' and things along those lines.

Generally what seems to trigger this is if I am persistent about something he doesn't like. The last time it happened we were talking about arrangements for seeing family over the Christmas period. He is taking the kids to see his family. I've not been invited and wouldn't feel comfortable going and I'm a bit sad about that situation. It isn't his family's fault, or his, or anyone's really - it just is what it is and I feel a bit sad and that's okay. I told him I felt sad (I also very carefully said I didn't think it was anyone's fault and I wasn't asking him to fix or change anything, stay at home, talk to his family or do anything at all). In response he told me I should think about how his family feel and how they have every right to be disgusted by me. I said yes, I am sure the way our marriage troubles have impacted on them is difficult for them but I'm asking him for some care and empathy about my feelings. That's when he started doing the impressions. It's very odd and upsetting behaviour. He does apologise for it afterwards but it always happens again. He doesn't seem to be able to control it. I would say he's under a lot less work stress than he was last year and earlier this year and he doesn't seem to be depressed or anxious to the same degree he was earlier in this year when he was behaving terribly most of the time.

I have spoken to him about this calmly. I've said I find it disrespectful and it appears like it is intended to humiliate me. I've said that if he really believes I think and feel the things he seems to be attempting to dramatise he is wrong, and our communication would work better if I could tell him what I thought and felt and he could tell me what he thought and felt and would he be willing to do that. He says he is doing that. I've said that when he comes close to me and tries to hold me or kiss me, the sight of him doing these impressions and the sound of what he says during them rings in my ears. That I fear that's how he really sees me and that's how he really feels about me. And that's why I struggle to be responsive to him or want to be close to him. I have said these things in as calm and respectful way as I can. And it has made no difference. In fact, I'd say he does these weird compulsive dramatics a bit more often now as he seems to know that it has an affect on me.

So in therapy I want to ask that he commit to stopping that behaviour. That he can be angry or upset or mistrusting or whatever he is - and he is welcome to communicate that to me in words like an adult. But that I need him to take responsibility for this odd behaviour and stop it so I can feel emotionally safe with him.

Does that sound all right?

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Alison ~

First, I completely agree that bringing up this concern in front of his IC is a great step. Showing that you can do so calmly and respectfully in front of his IC may be very helpful, especially for his IC. Also I think having a specific episode to discuss is really helpful to focus a session. I think it's a great idea.

Second, it's really hard for me not to mind-read your H reading the above. It sounds to me like he is trying really hard to hold it together, but maybe he has some resentment which he can't always bottle up and it comes out in the form of these weird outbursts. Regardless, I think his behavior is extremely disrespectful, especially given you are trying to work through a difficult period of your MR. Honestly I am pretty angry on your behalf reading your post. His family is "disgusted" by you? These outbursts betray an emotional immaturity that he needs to work on.

I think a few months ago I mentioned that it's easy to change the outward-facing behaviors, but the underlying attitudes, thoughts, and feelings are the ones that are hard to change. It seems like your H has done some work to change the behaviors. These episodes seem to indicate the underlying attitudes, etc., may still be the same... there is no other explanation I can come up with for the bizarre outbursts.

Ever hear of the game Hero-Victim-Villain? You have chosen to stop playing the game. Your H continues to play. He views you as the Victim and himself as the Villain. As long as anybody is playing the game, the relationship suffers.

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(((Alison))) Hugs.

How are you my friend? I couldn't sleep well last night because I had a cappuccino after dinner. I got caught up on your thread. I have been thinking about what I could offer you. I was laying awake thinking about some of my recent posts -- I just came down pretty hard on May -- and somehow it felt more natural because I can see (or what I think I see) more similarities between her sitch and my previous sitch. When I read your threads, it is a bit harder for me to understand the dynamics. One of my goals moving forward in this community is to try and think about the differences and not give the same cookie cutter advice we keep reading here. When my H came home he was vulnerable and humbled, however your H has come back but doesn't seem ready to really do the hard work yet.

You have described your H in the past as being cold, a bully and even abusive. It sounds as if he has softened a bit, however you still have ambivalence. We talked about that ambivalence as being a natural protective mechanism and a necessary one. In your last couple of posts, you are describing things that I find very concerning :-( You don't feel safe talking about your feelings because he can't handle that, and so you hold them in. And you are also describing some strange, and cruel sounding, teasing. I am having trouble even picturing what that looks like. Can you tell me more? How long does is last? Does he mean it as a joke? Do you just walk away?

I get the sense that he is dismissing your feelings and justifying that by saying that you are "playing a victim." I don't like that at all. It is hard work to restore a M and it takes both people to be patient, kind, and willing to look at how they can change. I see that you are able to self reflect and make changes, but I am not sure he is doing the same. Does he ever just listen and validate how you feel? My fear is if he can't learn to do that then this M cannot heal. It has to come from both people.

I hope otherwise you are finding enjoyment in the holidays. This time of year can be hard.

What happened to Dilly, does anyone know? I miss her and think about her too ...

Blu


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Originally Posted by BluWave
(((Alison))) Hugs.

How are you my friend? I couldn't sleep well last night because I had a cappuccino after dinner. I got caught up on your thread. I have been thinking about what I could offer you. I was laying awake thinking about some of my recent posts -- I just came down pretty hard on May -- and somehow it felt more natural because I can see (or what I think I see) more similarities between her sitch and my previous sitch. When I read your threads, it is a bit harder for me to understand the dynamics. One of my goals moving forward in this community is to try and think about the differences and not give the same cookie cutter advice we keep reading here. When my H came home he was vulnerable and humbled, however your H has come back but doesn't seem ready to really do the hard work yet.


Hello Blu! I am in better spirits today. I've been unwell for the past couple of days and I had to miss the visit to H's IC that I agreed to make. I was worried about that - but he could see that I really was ill (I was feverish and needed to stay in bed) so he went on his own. We didn't discuss what they spoke about and I don't know when his next appointment is.

I would not say that my H is vulnerable or humbled. Except I know he lashes out when he feels vulnerable, shamed or anxious - so if I assume that is what's underneath his unpleasant behaviours, perhaps he's more vulnerable and humbled than appears. He does say he wants to work on our marriage, he's glad he came home, he feels happier these days. He generally seems more concerned that things are working out better for him than they are for me. We have both made some changes. It was necessary for me to make changes. I'm not perfect but I am glad he feels a little better about things. I worry he doesn't seem to have the same concern for my happiness as I do for his - though he's an acts of service man and less likely to express himself verbally than through actions.

Originally Posted by BluWave
You have described your H in the past as being cold, a bully and even abusive. It sounds as if he has softened a bit, however you still have ambivalence. We talked about that ambivalence as being a natural protective mechanism and a necessary one. In your last couple of posts, you are describing things that I find very concerning :-( You don't feel safe talking about your feelings because he can't handle that, and so you hold them in. And you are also describing some strange, and cruel sounding, teasing. I am having trouble even picturing what that looks like. Can you tell me more? How long does is last? Does he mean it as a joke? Do you just walk away?


This sarcastic, nasty behaviour used to be a feature of my life daily. It involved name-calling, mocking, doing impressions of me, talking in silly high pitched voices, hunching over (I am much smaller than him) and 'pretending' to be me, saying things I hadn't said then arguing with himself, pretending to be me. I used to get really upset and cry, which would give him more fuel for his mockery. Or I'd try to stroke his arms and calm and pacify him as you would soothe a tantruming two year old, and that never worked either. Sometimes I'd get furious and fight back (verbally, I mean - I have been verbally abusive in these moments in the past but never ever ever physically), which would escalate things. When we lived apart and I started setting boundaries he had no opportunity to act in this way. Now when it happens (much less often) I leave the room without a word and insist on an apology before we get closer again. He will apologise but it doesn't mean much to me, I have to be honest. The performance tends to last as long as he has an audience for it so leaving is the most sensible thing to do. He will sometimes carry on in a room on his own (I can sometimes hear him from other room) and sometimes me leaving is enough to get him to regain control over himself. He does not mean it as a joke: I have told him in calm times I find it upsetting, hurtful and humiliating and it prevents me feeling safe enough to get close to him.

Often he will deny that it happened at all, or he will say it was my fault that it happened. He said to me - in a rare moment of recent insight and self-reflection - that he felt so helpless and smothered and burdened in our relationship for so long, and so seething with resentment - that now he feels safer expressing his feelings he over-reacts and things spill out too much. (I believe Unchien suggested exactly this a few posts earlier in this thread and I think he was spot-on). I asked him what his plan was to do something about his resentment and emotional reactions (well, my exact words were 'what you do plan to do about your compulsion to behave in way that damages our marriage), and he didn't say anything. He seems to believe, still, that it is the world's job to adjust to what he needs, rather than him controlling his emotions and behaviour no matter what happens in the outside world. I believe that is at the root of many out our parenting disagreements - he expects a level of emotional maturity and self control from his teenage son that he is unable to exert over himself, and that he doesn't, deep down, think he should apply to himself. That interferes with my ability to respect him.

Originally Posted by BluWave
I get the sense that he is dismissing your feelings and justifying that by saying that you are "playing a victim." I don't like that at all. It is hard work to restore a M and it takes both people to be patient, kind, and willing to look at how they can change. I see that you are able to self reflect and make changes, but I am not sure he is doing the same. Does he ever just listen and validate how you feel? My fear is if he can't learn to do that then this M cannot heal. It has to come from both people.


Yes, he does sometimes listen and validate me. He is patient and kind more often. I see him working very hard on his relationship with the children and in doing acts of service to demonstrate love. I think the root of the problem is his passivity. Which sounds strange when I am describing such actively unpleasant behaviours. But when he finds something upsetting, stressful or anxiety-inducing, he tends to lash out at the thing that he believes is causing the problem. He's an absolutely compulsive blamer.

He had a little grump this morning about not being able to have any time to himself. I said 'why not take the morning to yourself and I can be in with the kids,' (no problem to me - I can do some baking with them) - he then grumped a bit more and said 'well, I'll have to come back before lunch anyway because I need to do...(some other thing)' and I said 'okay - well, so long as we know that you're choosing not to have two hours to yourself, not that me or the kids are taking that two hours from you.' I guess I was being overbearing and naggy and annoying but I do feel a need to point out to him that he's making his own problems then blaming others for them, then when others get upset about that, blaming them for that too. It's much less than it used to be, but I wonder how deep-seated his changes actually are. We have a regular thing where he refuses to plan the weekends, doesn't want to be pinned down, doesn't want to say what he wants to do, then whines about how he hasn't had his needs met. I don't accept that any more. I ask him what he wants and tell him I'd like to meet his needs but he's going to need to express them for that to be possible. He finds it nearly impossible to say 'I want...' - I believe he had a very overbearing and critical mother.

I am different than I used to be. I enjoy my life without him. I generally emotionally avoid him. Perhaps that's all the marriage a person like him can manage. Perhaps I will decide in time that it isn't enough. Perhaps he will continue to work on his problems in IC and things will slowly change. I feel much more confident than I ever did that he's got some real personality problems and his antics don't as much hurt me as a person anymore, but they damage our marriage. That's different. I can survive and thrive without a marriage to this man. I have myself and I am much better protected and safer than I used to be.

[/quote]I hope otherwise you are finding enjoyment in the holidays. This time of year can be hard.

What happened to Dilly, does anyone know? I miss her and think about her too ...

Blu[/quote]

And you too Blu - thanks for checking in on me. I am having lots of fun time and feeling better after my illness. Plan to do a little baking today, I hope. Do you have fun festive plans?

I haven't heard anything about or from Dilly in months. I hope she is okay. If you still lurk and read Dilly - I think of you very often and would love to hear how you are getting on.

Merry Christmas everyone!

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Hi Alison. I too am concerned about your H's mocking behavior, and find some of what you wrote about to show he is still verbally abusive. My fears for your personal well being were calmed a bit by your post above, about how it damages the marriage, but not you. I hope that is true.

Which isn't to say I'm not still concerned or that we should take his behaviors lightly. It's still dangerous, and I don't think any of us want you settling into a routine of finding this acceptable or normal. I think you see that it is not.

It seems your plan now is to stay and see if things change over time. If it gets worse please don't hide it from us, we want to support you. Separating a second time sounds like it will be easier, but may be more difficult - I have no idea. But if it starts to ease-up that may be harder to track. I wonder if documenting his outbursts would be helpful to you? A birds eye view of how often he does his mocking, how often he is sarcastic, how often you feel he is trying to be honest with you in talking about it. A little abbreviation in a calendar, and looking at how often each behavior shows up in a week/month. Looking at it as "facts" of his behavior might prove useful to you?

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Alison - I am with Yail. I find his attitude, behaviour and words extremely uncomfortable. I get that this is what he does when he feels threatened or insecure, but that does not make it right. He feels threatened so he threatens. He feels insecure, so he mocks and belittles. Habit maybe, but habits like this need to be broken if you are ever going to get to a place where you can truly be happy together. Otherwise you are sacrifice your hard won sense of self worth for what, a man who makes you feel like sh!t because he feels like sh!t.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
So in therapy I want to ask that he commit to stopping that behaviour. That he can be angry or upset or mistrusting or whatever he is - and he is welcome to communicate that to me in words like an adult. But that I need him to take responsibility for this odd behaviour and stop it so I can feel emotionally safe with him.


Do this. But read the boundaries thread first. Are you willing to tolerate his behaviour hoping that it goes away on it's own (it won't) or are you willing to tell him what you will not tolerate and face the consequences?

If you take the former, you will end up exactly where you were post BD. Him treating you like garbage, feeling guilty for it, then losing respect for you because you let him treat you like garbage and resenting you for making him feel guilty for it.

If you do the latter, he might kick off. He might spew a little and then stew in his own resentment and you may ultimately lose him again, but he will respect you and more importantly, you will respect you.

And I truly truly believe, you can't have a relationship without respect.

Merry Christmas A.


W40 (me), H40
M14, Together 16
D12, D9

BD Oct 17
Moved out Mar 18

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Alison ~

Just want to add to what I wrote above.. I am completely aligned with the other responses here. Your H's outward behavior seems to betray that he still harbors the same attitudes. It is one thing to fix the outward behaviors, but (in my opinion) that is *not* sufficient to address the underlying issue.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Often he will deny that it happened at all, or he will say it was my fault that it happened. He said to me - in a rare moment of recent insight and self-reflection - that he felt so helpless and smothered and burdened in our relationship for so long, and so seething with resentment - that now he feels safer expressing his feelings he over-reacts and things spill out too much. (I believe Unchien suggested exactly this a few posts earlier in this thread and I think he was spot-on). I asked him what his plan was to do something about his resentment and emotional reactions (well, my exact words were 'what you do plan to do about your compulsion to behave in way that damages our marriage), and he didn't say anything. He seems to believe, still, that it is the world's job to adjust to what he needs, rather than him controlling his emotions and behaviour no matter what happens in the outside world. I believe that is at the root of many out our parenting disagreements - he expects a level of emotional maturity and self control from his teenage son that he is unable to exert over himself, and that he doesn't, deep down, think he should apply to himself. That interferes with my ability to respect him.


Both items I bold-texted are indicators his attitude has not changed.

He expects to resolve his resentment by taking it out on you with these mocking emotional outbursts?

I think addressing this with his IC is the right plan. Otherwise it seems like a slippery slope where things could gradually devolve back to the way they were before (or close to it).

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thank you everyone. Some great suggestions here, which have helped me to come up with a plan.

1. decide what the boundary is... 'when you do this behaviour, I will...'
2. bring this up when I visit his IC with him at earliest opportunity and state my boundary there
3. as Yail suggests, check in here or in a personal diary to keep a clearer log of how often and when this happens
4. GAL, detach, give acts of service, count the good things

Merry Christmas everyone. I will check back in the New Year. I wish you all good things in your home lives.

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Merry Christmas, Alison. You sound (read) very level headed and strong. You have come such a long way. I have no doubt you will find your way through this. In time, it will sort out and you will find your own happiness again. Life is long and there is no rush to predict the future. Wishing you peace and joy!

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
thank you everyone. Some great suggestions here, which have helped me to come up with a plan.

1. decide what the boundary is... 'when you do this behaviour, I will...'
2. bring this up when I visit his IC with him at earliest opportunity and state my boundary there
3. as Yail suggests, check in here or in a personal diary to keep a clearer log of how often and when this happens
4. GAL, detach, give acts of service, count the good things

Merry Christmas everyone. I will check back in the New Year. I wish you all good things in your home lives.

Excellent plan!

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Hi Alison,

I wanted to pipe in as my H has some similar tendencies around blaming others and lashing out when his (unspoken) desires aren't met. I share in everyone's discomfort with the way he's acting, and absolutely agree that you need to address this NOW with him and his IC before you allow it to continue.

A few things that I have tried with my H that have really helped (with his behavior in these situations, not in the overall "staying married" part so take it all with a grain of salt wink ) that might be appropriate in your situation:

--I make it a point to ask, ask again, and then get verbal confirmation if we're going to do something that I suspect he isn't 100% into. I saw you did that and then worried that you were acting overbearing and naggy- NO! You weren't. You are trying to communicate with him clearly and get him to communicate with you, which you need to do if he isn't going to take responsibility for his own choices.

--I also try to reinforce him when he does share what he wants to do, particularly if I don't care too much one way or the other-- if he is willing to share what he wants and I'm OK with it, I think it helps him see he can have his own opinion and it is fine. For instance, when your H said he would need some decompression time during the holidays, it might be good for you to make it happen-- find a time where you take the kids and let him know that is what you're doing because he told you it would be helpful for him.

-- I definitely think he needs to work with his IC to figure out why he's doing this mocking thing and how he can stop. This is not something you should accept.

-- Finally, it sounds like you guys need to work out a better way of communication. It isn't OK that you don't feel heard, or that you're worried or scared to bring something up that you feel in order to keep the peace. Then what's the point of being in an R with him? You don't want to go through your life like this and I would imagine you would need to have some level of hope it will change in order to keep him around-- and if he isn't able to take this seriously and work on this now, when will be a better time? I can't remember if you guys are seeing an MC or not, but this could be something to work through with an MC. Or, even both reading Gottman's 7 Principles and trying out some of the exercises with a regularly scheduled time to talk about things? Maybe feels contrived but perhaps if you can set some ground rules that you can both follow and it can be a safe space to share.

Not sure any of this is helpful but wanted to say I can totally empathize with you and am glad you're not going to accept this behavior anymore. It isn't OK and he needs to realize that.


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Thanks May - some great suggestions there. And yes, I have definitely decided I need to have a hard boundary around this behaviour and I need to communicate to him what that is during IC. I don't know when the next IC appointment is and if I will be going to it - I hope so - and I plan to check that with him tomorrow.

Otherwise, things have gone well since I last posted. There's not been one bit of unpleasantness of any kind. Both kids had their moments over a busy Christmas period, and I feel like we worked really well together. I also made sure that he got his decompression time. He was very verbally appreciative of my work cooking / hosting / organising and I felt very supportive in that he was encouraging the kids to help me and show some gratitude. He did take some time away for himself, but was also much more 'present' and involved than he was last Christmas.

We are coming up to one year since he moved out. It's been an awful year. I still do feel a bit sad and feel like I want a lot of reassurance and care around the anniversary of him moving out. I don't know if this is the time to take care of my own emotional needs, or tell him what's going on in my head and let him take the chance to get closer to me.

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Hello. I am checking back in for a weekly update.

Things continue calmly. I'm back at work and the kids are back at school tomorrow and I am looking forward to getting back into my usual routine: too much time in the house, too much time playing cook and laundry maid, too much time watching H slack-jawed in front of a computer screen. He really doesn't have many friends or interests. He doesn't seem to be as depressed or anxious as he was, and he is caring for himself better in some small ways. He isn't drinking hardly at all - apart from over Christmas as everyone does. But he doesn't have GAL and that makes him hard to talk to and hard to be interested in sometimes.

I have managed to spend some extra time with friends, and on my own, but I'm still adjusting to having another adult in the house, checking in with them, making plans together or separately but co-ordinated. H doesn't like to be pressed on his plans (he'd say he's more of a 'go with the flow' type - it comes off as passive and evasive to me) so getting things to line up so everyone gets a bit of what they need - solo time, housework done, time with kids, time with friends, time as a couple - involves better communication than we're having right now. But it was okay.

I did manage to take myself out on a long walk today and get some reflection and perspective on what is happening in my head. There have been so many changes over the past couple of months I think I am only just processing them, and recalibrating my attitude to our past marriage.

I know I used to be extremely hurt by some of his previous behaviour. I thought if only I could be a better wife, or find the right way to communicate, or showed him how upset I was, then things would change. I took total responsibility for all out problems. Now I don't recognise that person. I look back on our past and think what a pathetic, contemptible set of behaviours from a deeply flawed and insecure man, and what's worse, I allowed it, enabled and even encouraged it for far too long. I do feel I am changing a lot. He spoke to me sharply this morning in front of the kids. I looked up at him, put down what I was doing and said 'don't you dare speak to me like that. Get control of yourself.' I know he was surprised. I was surprised at myself. He stopped immediately. He didn't apologise. But I am done biting my lip and playing the adoring or insecure wife. If we are rebuilding this marriage we will do it from the ground up and I am not who I was and the old dynamic doesn't work for me anymore.

What I notice is that I am still struggling to respect him. As a human being I respect him. I don't admire him or look up to him as I used to. Perhaps that will come. My more pressing task is to respect and feel good about myself. I wish there was something enjoyable that we did together - some shared interest or hobby other than the running of the house and the kids. He's very hard to talk to, to get interested in anything. We have very different tastes in films. I'm not that interested in music, he listens to it all the time. I'm a bookworm, he's probably read two books in ten years. He follows the news, me, not so much. I have close friends and like connecting through conversation, he's a loner who values privacy. We did go out today to the beach for a walk with the dog, and both enjoyed that - so that's a start.

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wow, he does not sound fun to live with...Have you both discussed doing something new together? You could take it in turns proposing something and the other person has to go along once without complaining (I know he's prone to complaining :)) What did you used to do together before you had kids?
I am so proud of you for your new habit of being assertive.
Piecing (if that's what you are doing) sounds HARD. I hope you can both warm things up between you x

PS I have read back through all my old threads (and banging my head at how little I listened to anyone) and I really appreciate you being there for me during such a tough time, it made such a difference having you posting kindly on my threads. Thank you smile

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Ah - he's not much fun most of the time, no. But then again he wasn't put on earth to provide me with fun, and I can make enough of that for myself and when I don't, well, that's on me.

My challenge is looking at him through a lens of compassion and not contempt. He's allowed to be weak, self-centred and flawed - aren't we all? I'd rather he could admit to these things and work on them, rather than sit festering in self pity and blame. But that desire is self interested: it would be nicer for ME if he'd do these things. It would vindicate my view of him and our situation. But perhaps he's where he needs to be at the moment. I tend to leave him alone quite a lot these days. Partly because - as you say - he's no fun and doesn't have much to offer and partly because I'm acclimatised to getting on with my own life without him.

On compassionate days, I can offer him some affection and reassurance and understanding. Doing this verbally often risks getting us into conversations I don't want to have. Acknowledging, for example, that he looks a bit frustrated or worn out or depleted will often invite him to list all the reasons why it's someone else's fault he's in that state. That whinging isn't anything I have bandwidth to listen to, and dishing out the opium of validation to him only enables his childishness and emotional immaturity, so instead I give him a wide berth and instead try to communicate though acts of service. I have to have balance on that: to look after myself, my kids, do GAL and THEN if there's anything left try to do something kind for him, rather than turn myself back into a doormat who is trading domestic services for approval and affection. I don't always get that right.

I don't have many compassionate days, if I am honest. He isn't attractive to me at all - I struggle with that. Most says I see a sulking, blaming, silly little boy who isn't capable of taking action to resolve any of his own issues. When he's not in that mood, he is more appealing a prospect to be around and we have some good times - some laughs, some companionship. There are times when he's very engaged and present and wants to work together on some task around the house, or take the kids out together. He tells me more about his work life and anxieties around than than he ever has. I listen. He's much much better with both kids. He's slightly more likely to express he's feeling scared or vulnerable in words, rather than lashing out or sulking. The 'lashing out' when it happens comes in the form of snapping and grumpiness and doesn't come into verbal abuse any more. The weird thing he's doing with the impressions - he hasn't actually done it at all since I mentioned it on here. I am quite sure he isn't reading these posts. I think perhaps he's sensing a change in me, or he's worried I do plan to bring it up with his therapist when we go to his IC.

So that's where we are.

Dilly - you are very welcome. If i was kind to you or helped in any way, or even just gave you a laugh or a bit of company, well I am glad. I was in such a dark place when I arrived at these boards. I'm not there any more and I don't think you are either. I thought of you often over the summer. I really hope you keep turning up here now and again and that things continue to improve for you and your kids. I think you're all going to be okay.

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Ugh. I don't like that I've just written a long post about H. That isn't where I want to spend my attention. I want to think about my own development.

So - I need to decide on what a healthy and adult and loving response is around various ways that he communicates that's unacceptable to me. I want to really get good at this - whatever happens with my marriage, this is a skill that will serve me well in my friendships, as a parent, and at work.

1. Blame - I don't accept it, am not interested in hearing it, and find it boring and unattractive. I want to respond with a neutral noise of acknowledgement 'hmmm' and then leave the room. I expect some of you will be advising me to validate but this is a man who has literally never ever been content with anything, and while it used to be his mother's fault, now it's mine. I need a boundary to protect myself from this nonsense.
2. Sarcasm, mockery, etc: I leave the room right away. The house if I need to.
3. General complaining. I respond by validating the emotion - even if he's not clearly expressing one I can take a guess - then asking 'what do you want to do' or 'what you want?' as a way of inviting him to take some action, rather than just more moaning. This hasn't been working so well - usually we start with complaining, he moves onto blame, and if I take the bait and start defending myself, we get onto the sarcasm or mockery. I need a healthy way to respond to complaints.

I also need to leave him alone more. It irritates me when he's in the family room with his headphones on playing a computer game. He gets irritated if anyone speaks to him. This is between 7-9 in the evening when it's the full business of family life. I think it's pathetic just to 'check out' like that. I know he's tired, but I work too and if he checks out, it means all of the practical and emotional needs of the kids are on me. It's his way of escaping. I think he escapes because he feels exhausted and also incompetent. He doesn't do it all the time though. And he is more likely to do it when he's been working long shifts and when it's been a while since he's had some alone time. I know when I try to engage him by trying to have conversations, asking or nagging for help with the domestic stuff or with the kids, or wanting to discuss something practical that could wait, he's likely to get irritable. I can just let him be in those moments. I am perfectly capable of doing everything on my own anyway.

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Hi Alison,

I've been reading many stories on here, and i've just completed yours. Wow. And do you know what, i read alot of it as if it was my W posting! This is revealing to me as i'm recognising my part in being the LBS, and the traits i've displayed in the past. Although i would hope not to the extent you have put up with. Anyway my point is, i have been reading and re-reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and so, so much resonates.

What i have gleaned from your posts is that your H is displaying a huge amount of Nice Guy Syndrome traits, which conversely aren't actually that 'Nice' at all. He has issued you with covert contracts, that in his head make sense, but you are completely unaware of. So when he reacts negatively towards you its usually because of an unmet need, that you (rather annoyingly to H) should have known about!

I would recommend you have a read, as a lot of it may make sense to you, and ultimately if your H is willing - he should definitely have a read too.

Your journey is a powerful one for me - as stated above, it has helped me enormously because shamefully i can see i have exhibited similar behaviours as your H. A reminder to me to continue making my self the best version of me.

Lastly - You are doing so well, i'm following with interest as a beacon for the introspection you display and the growth and fortitude you are realising. Keep going, I support you!





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Alison, on point #1 - I think I understand why you don't wish to validate. Is it because this is a behavior he has gotten away with for far too long and you wish it to stop? Because it's a poor habit of his you feel you would be validating, not an authentic emotion?

I guess I'm torn on this one. My first instinct is to say something along the lines of, "thank you for sharing that perspective with me" which isn't exactly validating, but it's not invalidating either. But that would likely allow his blame-game to continue unchecked. I thought of mirroring what he says so it sounds ridiculous but I do not think that would help (and would start a fight and likely sound in-validating).

I'm a bit at a loss on this one because it's so ingrained in his behavior. I guess I'd just say to acknowledge his blame/complaining some of the time, but not always. Try to identify which ones may require some validating so he feels heard. But also other times perhaps just a "hmmm". The reason I say this is so that you don't get into the bad habit of just ignoring someone attempting (very, very poorly) to express something. His bad habit doesn't need to turn into your bad habit of learning NOT to validate.

Point #3: When someone is frustrated and struggling with an emotion it can be very hard for logic to be of assistance. Like a toddler with a tantrum. They're not actually upset that their cheerio fell on the floor, they're upset that they're tired and this small thing they wanted didn't work out and so now there is just not a full skill-set to express the frustration. Your husband doesn't have the skillset, so he goes into some fight-or-flight mode of just shutting down and/or fight.

So saying "What do you want to do about it" is helpful to someone who has coping skills. But he doesn't, and he can't work it out in the moment of emotion. Would changing the language to "what do you think WE should do about it?" be helpful? Imply that you'll help?

Or a simple choice? "I'd love to know how I can help. Would you like me to listen, or offer solutions?"
They say this is one of the primary differences in the ways men/women communicate. One learned behavior is that men offer solutions when the woman just wants someone to listen & validate. Perhaps this is what he is actually seeking?

I feel you've tried all this, but wanted to offer the outsiders thoughts.

Last thought: Remind me, were you in therapy for a while? Still? I'm curious if your therapist might offer you some feedback on your body language. Since the two of you are in a repetitive back-and-forth dynamic and you are changing your words I wonder if you can change your body language to match, and feedback on how you are subtly communicating may be helpful. Perhaps your husband is more in tuned to that than actual words.

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Originally Posted by Chaz70
Hi Alison,

I've been reading many stories on here, and i've just completed yours. Wow. And do you know what, i read alot of it as if it was my W posting! This is revealing to me as i'm recognising my part in being the LBS, and the traits i've displayed in the past. Although i would hope not to the extent you have put up with. Anyway my point is, i have been reading and re-reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and so, so much resonates.

What i have gleaned from your posts is that your H is displaying a huge amount of Nice Guy Syndrome traits, which conversely aren't actually that 'Nice' at all. He has issued you with covert contracts, that in his head make sense, but you are completely unaware of. So when he reacts negatively towards you its usually because of an unmet need, that you (rather annoyingly to H) should have known about!

I would recommend you have a read, as a lot of it may make sense to you, and ultimately if your H is willing - he should definitely have a read too.




Hello Chaz! Nice to meet you on here. I 100% agree with you. I actually read NMMNG a few months ago and found it very useful for myself: I know I've used people-pleasing and pacifying behaviour to try to control my H's moods and behaviour then got resentful when it didn't work. It's where I got the insight about Acts of Service - wanting to show love in a way that is meaningful to him without using domestic work to buy affection. There's a difference and I'm still working through.

I don't doubt it would be useful to H. He considers himself a good guy, a victim in life, and any implication at all that he isn't perfect is met with the most amazingly childish behaviour. He's very very invested in that image of himself. He needs to blame so he doesn't ever have to consider changing. However, there's not a cat's chance in the hot-place that he would read this book, and that chance would decrease 100% if it was me suggesting it to him. He isn't interested in other people's points of view. He's always right. Always. It's much better for me and my marriage if I concentrate on myself and leave him to himself.


Originally Posted by Yail
Alison, on point #1 - I think I understand why you don't wish to validate. Is it because this is a behavior he has gotten away with for far too long and you wish it to stop? Because it's a poor habit of his you feel you would be validating, not an authentic emotion?


Hi Yail! Happy New Year! I'm going to take your questions point by point and answer in a bit of detail - mainly for my own sake as a kind of record - and I just wanted to say THANK YOU because they were so intensely useful and illuminating to me.

So - the blaming. It's his belief that he is pretty helpless to address any minor discomfort at all in his life, and the major problems are all someone else's fault too. This is an ingrained characteristic in him. I find it infuriating and I am working on letting that go. I guess he can feel how he likes, but the behaviour - verbalising it to me - has no positive outcome at all. It entrenches the fiction that he has no agency in his life, and it's dull and unattractive to hear. I think the emotion - he feels stuck, helpless, like the world is out to get him, that things aren't fair - is one that he genuinely feels. But I am only guessing at that emotion. He doesn't express it verbally.

Originally Posted by Yail
I guess I'm torn on this one. My first instinct is to say something along the lines of, "thank you for sharing that perspective with me" which isn't exactly validating, but it's not invalidating either. But that would likely allow his blame-game to continue unchecked. I thought of mirroring what he says so it sounds ridiculous but I do not think that would help (and would start a fight and likely sound in-validating).


On minor things, 'thanks for telling me,' or 'I hear you' or 'I get what you're saying' will sometimes be enough to head the whinging off at the pass. At other times, especially when we get onto the ways in which he thinks things are my fault, he really really needs me to agree with him. Sometimes I do, and I say, 'yes, that was difficult, and I wish I'd behaved differently. I can't fix the past. I want to do differently now and in the future,' - he almost always finds that provocative and will point out instances from distant and recent past where I have displeased him, most times twisting the truth pretty spectacularly in order to do so. My suspicion here is that he wants a contrite and obedient emotional punch bag and doesn't like the fact he doesn't have one any more. I think it's healthiest to let him suffer that on his own without much validation from me (especially as he probably wouldn't agree with that!)

Originally Posted by Yail
So saying "What do you want to do about it" is helpful to someone who has coping skills. But he doesn't, and he can't work it out in the moment of emotion. Would changing the language to "what do you think WE should do about it?" be helpful? Imply that you'll help?

Or a simple choice? "I'd love to know how I can help. Would you like me to listen, or offer solutions?"
They say this is one of the primary differences in the ways men/women communicate. One learned behavior is that men offer solutions when the woman just wants someone to listen & validate. Perhaps this is what he is actually seeking?


This is really useful. Thank you. It helps me to have bit of compassion for him - to understand that he's just not mature enough. He CAN'T do these things. I may as well be angry at a toddler for not being able to balance a chequebook.

If I give an example, it might help? Last night, H brought up the fact he was concerned that Eldest doesn't see friends very much. Eldest does have some extra-curricular hobbies, but it is true, he doesn't tend to see friends at weekends and invite them back to the house.

H: expresses this concern.
Me: Yes, I can see you're worried about that.
H: I need to know you're going to back me up on this.
Me: What action do you want to take? I want to know what you think would be best.
H: Eldest needs to do X Y and Z. (This was specifics about seeing friends, getting out and about, doing activities).
Me: I agree those things would be positive for him, but I'm not sure what your ideas are for what you think we as his parents should do?
H: Expresses more worry and anxiety about Eldest.
Me: You know, when I've had conversations about this with Eldest, he doesn't seem unhappy. Perhaps it's not as much of a problem as we thought. I'm at a loss as to how we'd encourage or make him do the things you want him to do? Maybe you could have a conversation with him about it?
H: Well Eldest won't talk to me about anything. That's because you... (insert more stuff here about how I am so lenient I've made him into the bad guy... I listen to a little bit of this, and he seems to get agitated and go around in circles. He seems to have forgotten what his original point is.)
H: I need you to back me up. It's no wonder he won't do what I want if you don't back me up.
Me: I can't back you up until I know what it is you plan to do. Can you tell me?

We went round and round like this for a while until I got frustrated. I probably showed that in my tone and body language. I said I didn't want to talk about it any longer, but I would be open to hearing any suggestions he had. I also followed up by suggesting to Eldest, in front of H, that he might want to invite some friends around this weekend. H was playing a computer game at the time and didn't participate in the conversation at all. H has very very very few social contacts outside his work. I couldn't name one friend of his. Eldest is an introvert, I'd say, but not a loner. H suffers massive social anxiety and I believe is projecting this on Eldest and wanting me to act as his proxy in taking some action to make Eldest do the things he isn't able to do himself. I haven't shared that opinion with him at all.

This was a very very mild example of the sort of conversations we have almost daily. H raises a problem. I either don't think it's a problem, or I think if it's a problem it is down to him to make a suggestion, or I agree it is a problem and make a suggestion as to how to fix it, and nothing changes, or he loses interest in the matter almost immediately. When I have asked him what he needs from me he says he wants me to care about his feelings. Me telling him verbally I care about his feelings doesn't seem to matter. I believe he wants me to change his feelings. He seems to be under the impression I am capable of that, and of course I am not so when his bad feelings don't go away, he gets to be annoyed at me about that.

Originally Posted by Yail
Last thought: Remind me, were you in therapy for a while? Still? I'm curious if your therapist might offer you some feedback on your body language. Since the two of you are in a repetitive back-and-forth dynamic and you are changing your words I wonder if you can change your body language to match, and feedback on how you are subtly communicating may be helpful. Perhaps your husband is more in tuned to that than actual words.



I am going to ask my IC about this. I think that would be really helpful to know. I am fairly sure that in these instances, even when I am trying to verbalise willing and helpfulness and that I care, my actual thoughts, which are generally along the lines of 'this again?' seep out. I might be able to fake it better. We've generally been talking about boundaries, building up my self esteem, meeting my own emotional needs and managing my parenting better - but I can ask about this. I did see H's IC with him once before a couple of months ago - in the summer - and she suggested I either acted like a child seeking his approval, or like a parent trying to manage his childish behaviour. I think she was absolutely right. I believe he either acts like a parent - trying to get me in line to do what he wants - or like a child tantrumming because he feels bad and it's Mommy's fault. Unhealthy on both sides.

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This is my weekly update, as sort-of suggested by Yail. I am finding that very helpful - both as a way of measuring progress but also not getting so getting caught up in the daily detail of normal life that I don't step back and take a wider view.

So, overall it has been a good week. There was a little bit of conflict around a piece of paperwork that we needed to complete together. I was tense and expecting conflict as he didn't want to do it and I was driving it as it needed to be done. I was worried he was going to say I was nagging or controlling him, and when he was grumpy I over-reacted. He didn't react particularly well to my over-reaction. Our anxieties seemed to be feeding each other and after a fairly minor squabble there was a day or two of quite polite frostiness until we had a conversation about it (more on that later). It seems that more and more often our minor disputes are about us bringing the past into the present.

There have been no instances at all of verbal abuse, weird mocking behaviours, unpleasantness with the children, snide remarks etc. Even when we had words over the paperwork, he was a bit grumpy and difficult, but then again, so was I. Neither of us were abusive in that instance: just childish (me too). I've felt a little more secure now the 1 year since BD and move out day has passed and I think that anxiety easing has made things a little calmer for both of us. I notice he's volunteering a lot more information about his life - just his day to day goings on at work, how he's feeling about things, what his plans are - and retaining the information I give him about my life and even asking follow up questions. That's new and welcome.

So: this conversation. I actually approached him (bad D-Bing) to try and sort out the atmosphere that had crept in after our words earlier in the week. It kind of spiralled into a very very long and difficult conversation about the state of the R more generally, and what we wanted, and how it was all going since he moved back in. It was difficult. Very difficult. I was tearful at times and he was quite harsh at times but I kept control of myself and so did he. I guess I will summarise.

[list]
[*]he told me the full truth about his EA. It was broadly as I suspected, with some additional details I didn't know that I found quite hurtful to hear, though I don't believe his motivation was to hurt me, but to be honest.
[*]he spoke to me quite clearly and without blaming or critical language about how he felt when I had PND and how he didn't think I'd ever appreciate how difficult that time was for him
[*]how he was afraid all the time of things slipping back to how they were
[*]I shared how difficult I found him to communicate with because of how often he criticises and blames without actually saying clearly what he feels and what he wants and I didn't think we could repair things unless he could speak up for himself without whining (I did use that actual term, which might have been a mistake but he did laugh)
[*]I also said it was extremely difficult for me to feel safe in our marriage given that he seemed reluctant to take full responsibility for his shortcomings and abusive behaviours and his attitude seemed to be that he was justified in them
[*]I said I wasn't willing to commit to reconciling with him when what was offered was a relationship where he felt justified, in some circumstances, in being verbally or emotionally abusive or in lying to me - that what I needed to know was that we were on the same page and there were never any justifications from those behaviours
[*]he said he needed to know he would be able to move on from the past and not have it constantly hanging over him and brought up in every argument and he felt he couldn't even make a minor mistake in signing a form (our argument about the paperwork) without feeling that I was actually reacting to every bad thing he'd done in the past
[*]I said I needed to know there were no more secrets, and that nothing new was going to creep out of the woodwork in months or years to come regarding his EA or anything else that had happened relevant to our relationship while we had been separated

So we talked all this through for a good long time and ended by making an agreement that we would no longer bring up the past in day to day conversation (though that still might happen with an MC) and that we would both try to respond 'in the moment' rather than assuming what the other person was thinking or feeling and acting based on that. We both agreed that it would be difficult to break old habits and overcome insecurities and we would seek help on this, give each other some grace, and try to help each other.

I don't know if I am explaining this very well. it wasn't so much 'we will sweep all this under the carpet' but more, 'we will have to talk about this in a more solution focused way, looking forward together, rather than just rehearsing the reasons we have both been unhappy about things' and that felt very positive to me.

Some of the things he shared with me about his EA were very difficult for me to hear. There was more contact between them than I had discovered. it was a long time ago now, and there is no current contact between them and hasn't been for some time. He offered total transparency on his phone and computer but I didn't take him up on that. I don't want to be that kind of person. And it means nothing anyway - he could very easily have a second phone or only see her in person and there is no amount of checking that will make a person honest and faithful if they do not want to be. I don't want him faithful because he's worried about getting caught, is what I told him. What was more important to me was that he agreed that he didn't want to be in a relationship where there was justifications for lying. I don't yet trust he will consistently live up to that (and I did say that to him), but I do believe that he meant it when he said it.

Since then things have been very good. There's been a lightness. Less fear. More fun and affection. I've felt less on my guard. I have had moments of sadness mulling over the things he's told me about his EA. The details were old news to him, but new to me. It hurts a bit. I haven't brought it up to him but I haven't pretended to be happy when I am not. He has been kind without being smothering. I guess we're doing a lot of this non-verbally. Which seems to work a bit better for him. He has also seemed happier and more motivated to say what he wants in small ways. I still have GAL and he still has none and that is his business, I suppose, though he's been easier on Eldest in the past few days and I've actually seem them laughing together a few times.

I guess my question is - from anyone who has experience or who has been reading my threads - whether they think this is positive or if I am deluding myself, and what my next steps should be? I want to talk to my IC (tomorrow) about body language, and anger, and boundaries again. I think I do still feel very angry at him and I don't know if it is humanly possible for me to put all that in the past and move on from it. I would like to find solutions with him and I feel more hopeful that it is possible to find those solutions and redesign a life together that suits us both (or perhaps find out clearly that we aren't compatible any more) and perhaps the days of getting mired in him attacking and criticising and blaming and me pacifying and placating or getting upset or defending myself or avoiding him are in the past. Time will tell I guess.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK


This was a very very mild example of the sort of conversations we have almost daily. H raises a problem. I either don't think it's a problem, or I think if it's a problem it is down to him to make a suggestion, or I agree it is a problem and make a suggestion as to how to fix it, and nothing changes, or he loses interest in the matter almost immediately. When I have asked him what he needs from me he says he wants me to care about his feelings. Me telling him verbally I care about his feelings doesn't seem to matter. I believe he wants me to change his feelings. He seems to be under the impression I am capable of that, and of course I am not so when his bad feelings don't go away, he gets to be annoyed at me about that.



Notes to myself, really. I've re-read this thread and noticed how positive the conversations we were having during the summer were. There was much less of the type of dynamic that I picked apart above. We seem to have slipped back into that again, and I think slipping back into it made me more wary and defensive, more angry and withdrawn and unwilling to validate or show empathy to him, and made him more critical and blamey and moaney. I do remember being blown away by how positively we were communicating in the summer. I think both of us sensed things were slipping backwards in the communication.

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Alison, I never went through piecing but I've heard so many people talk about what hard work it is and I think your thoughts really highlight why. It is a very difficult process to sort out feelings, anxieties, concerns, and how to address and mitigate them moving forward. It sounds like this latest was a tough conversation but I think you handled it well and that it needed to happen. And it also won't be the last I'm sure! Have you considered Retrouvaille? I think the communications techniques taught there would be a big help to you both.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I'm not sure I know what that is, AS. We're in the UK but I will look it up. I am not anti-Christian and find a lot of Christian marriage advice useful (I am religious but not Christian). H is a new-atheist type and would be very put off by anything with even a tiny whiff of God about it.

If this is piecing, then getting divorced would be easier. I genuinely feel that while I'd be very sad to leave my marriage, I would also be fine and have exciting things to look forward to. This way feels very tiring and uncertain. There's been some ease and fun between us these past few days that I have missed. But he is a human being and he won't be able to keep this up forever - and neither will I. I don't know how either of us will respond when the other makes a mistake or seems to be slipping back. I will go with him to his IC next month and we can address some of it there, I hope. She seems to have done wonders with him...

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Alison, I guess I missed your recent updates. I'm not sure what to say except just keep going. Remember that not a single decision of yours needs to happen in a single day. You are waiting for things to settle into a clear future, but I don't see that happening.

If anything, your future will be come clear only through time, and you'll look back and see your path clearly and how it lead you. All you can do is show up everyday with good intentions, be patient with yourself and your H, and listen to your heart on what the best steps are.

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Hey Alison -

Once again I commend you on your ability to see from outside of your own perspective, and to question yourself whether or not you have some improvement or if things are the status quo.

On first read, it appears to me that you both had a significant conversation, as difficult as it may have been. I would hesitate to say that it is "the conversation" (if there even is such a thing - personally I don't believe in Hollywood nonsense that there would be only one) but there appear to be elements of clarity, some forthcoming, and several positive things that were said.

Again, it's hard to tell from words on a screen, and harder still when you aren't "in" the situation fully. My recommendation might be to go back and contrast what you wrote in that post to what you wrote around the BD days and see if you're in a better place.

If I had to guess I might say you are close to piecing, but I wouldn't know, I'm still on the other side of the canyon, on mile 6 of the marathon (I think?).

Stay strong Alison smile


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Originally Posted by IronWill


If I had to guess I might say you are close to piecing


Thanks Iron Will. I don't think there'll be 'a conversation' either. I know the conversation we had last week covered ground we had attempted to discuss before - months and months ago - but I did feel there was a better honesty from him and I was more able to hear and understand, and vice versa.

I think if you asked my H he'd say that we were working on things. That this wasn't a reconciliation but about rebuilding a relationship from scratch.

Up until a couple of weeks ago I would not have said that. I'd have said, instead, that we were two separate people living in the same house, both testing various situations to see if an R was possible. I don't get the sense that we're 'going back' in terms of resurrecting something that was dead. I do think if R is to happen it isn't about a return but about making something new. I do want to do that, and I believe that H wants to do that, but I am not certain either he or I have the skills or abilities to carry it off.

There's been a peaceful and happy few days. He is touching me more - just in passing - and differently: as if I am his wife and someone he desires the company and attention of rather than as if I am a task to be completed or dealt with before he can do what he actually wants to do. The difference is subtle but it is there and I do feel it and I think he is feeling it too.

So much of this is non-verbal and I don't want to mind read. But his actions are following through. I've noted him taking great care over the words he chooses when he speaks to me, and genuinely and uninhibitedly looking happy when I come into the room. It's been years - years! - since I've seen him do that. We both have a couple of very demanding work weeks coming up and made a plan together the other evening as to how we will handle childcare, cooking, GAL for me and time alone for him. That was very new.

I'm in a strange place. Happy about these developments. Don't trust them. Wanting to trust them and enjoy what I have, but not wanting to feel safe in case it makes the fall back I fear is in my future even harder to bear. I am in some ways still grieving the past and the difficult times. Still mulling over this new information about his EA - pictures in my head. Flashes of anger and mean things I want to say (I don't say them, I go out for walks instead!). I've had my opportunity to ask questions and get information so I know I need to leave this behind. He has offered full transparency and these days I don't have any doubts that he's where he says he is and that his actions are faithful. I feel fear: that something else will come out (I know what people say about a man confessing to an EA because he doesn't want to confess to an PA) or that something important has been hidden. If I meant what I said when I said I was willing to move on from our shared past and work on a new R, then I need to let that go. Most of the time it is okay. I just wish it hadn't happened. I do appreciate that at that time he was very stressed, lonely and anxious and was attracted to something fun and comforting: he got the admiration and attention he wasn't getting at home. That doesn't make it my fault, or any less wrong, and it doesn't make me responsible for keeping him faithful. But sometimes I can feel a bit of compassion for him in his loneliness and self-centeredness at that time. And sometimes I would like to pour paint stripper on the OW's car and let her know precisely what my opinions are about her (and I do know she isn't the one who made vows to me and isn't deserving of those feelings). I am just riding these emotions out. I will check in again properly next week.

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A weekly update.

Things are progressing okay. There's been no drama at all about the kids, housework, money - nothing like that. It's been a very demanding week for both of us and I feel like we've worked well together as a team.

I've been struggling a bit. I can't say it's because of H's behaviour. He's been a little more distant but it's because he's been working anti social hours and is tired. Me too. But he's not been unpleasant or cold or critical. He's been talking to me about what's happening for him at work. Talking about a future, new projects, new things to do - and including me in those plans. All of that is good.

It's me. I've been struggling with fear. Wondering, always 'well, what if he's just pretending he's happy but he's actually seething with resentment and I'm going to catch it at the weekend,' and when I feel like that, I know I get a bit grumpy and distant and wary and that is as likely to trigger him to be distant or critical himself as anything else. I've also been remembering how much dishonesty there was about his EA and how extensive and calculated some of his lying was. And that for most of it, I didn't really suspect anything. I knew things weren't right between us - we were both very unhappy - but I had no idea that one of his responses was to seek closeness with someone else. I didn't have a clue. That makes me scared. He could be doing the same thing now and I'd never know. I don't have any solid reason in his behaviour today and these last months that I have anything to worry about in that direction. This is old stuff to do with the past. But it is there and I am sad that it is there.

He's been asking me how I feel, and wanting to 'work on the honesty' but I know expressing unease or worry or insecurity is a massive trigger for him and he's as likely to respond with unpleasantness as he is to be reassuring. And I haven't wanted to load him up with what's going on in my head as he's been so burdened at work (as have I). We also agreed to lay the past behind us, so I don't think disclosing all this in the interests of honesty is a good idea. Or that it is fair: I do need to work on my own healing.

I have GAL tonight so am off out with friends.

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Hi Alison,

Just a question and I don't know if this is considered DBing or anything... but are there things you DO feel safe in sharing with him, and getting him to share with you? As you start to rebuild trust and intimacy, of course you are scared and sad. And what you're both going through right now is super heavy and difficult, and maybe you both aren't ready to share where you are with the other person who figures so prominently in why you are feeling this way. I just wonder if you can start small, talk about important things that aren't R-related, relationships with colleagues or parents or whatever where you can begin to rebuild the connection between the two of you?

Have fun out with your friends-- relax and enjoy!


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2882330 01/25/20 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by may22
Hi Alison,

Just a question and I don't know if this is considered DBing or anything... but are there things you DO feel safe in sharing with him, and getting him to share with you? As you start to rebuild trust and intimacy, of course you are scared and sad. And what you're both going through right now is super heavy and difficult, and maybe you both aren't ready to share where you are with the other person who figures so prominently in why you are feeling this way. I just wonder if you can start small, talk about important things that aren't R-related, relationships with colleagues or parents or whatever where you can begin to rebuild the connection between the two of you?

Have fun out with your friends-- relax and enjoy!


This is a good question. We chat to each other about work, general domestic organisation. I can tell him I've had a hard day and he's generally supportive and kind in response. I hope I'm kind when he tells me about his day, which he does. We talk a little about Youngest - though Eldest is still a topic we generally avoid for the sake of peace.

I'm not sure we'll ever be on the same page as parents but it is getting better. I feel I am better at setting boundaries. H has commented he feels I am a more assertive parent. But he still feels undermined now and again. He is very committed to the idea that shaming or humiliating a child or young person is a good way to extract desirable behaviour from them. I have listened to his theories about this. I lay this against my own gut feelings, my own experiences of how being shamed and humiliated has worked for me, the parenting books I've read and the support and advice I've sought from other parents. Generally the consensus is that it's a terrible parenting strategy. H is extremely sensitive to the idea that he's being shamed or laughed at himself (he has terrible social anxiety) so how he squares his own sensitivity with the feeling that it's good to do that to a younger person in his care makes no sense to me.

I've asked that he don't use mocking, name-calling, nasty laughter or threats to discipline Eldest. And he has stopped doing those things. Totally. Though I do know it's more as a favour to me than because he thinks they are cruel and borderline emotionally abusive parenting tactics. And I think when Eldest does act up (which isn't that often actually - he's doing great at school, does his chores at home, gives a bit of back chat now and again but is generally decent and helpful and is reliable at coming home when he is asked to, etc) I don't tend to get support from H because he tells me I've 'banned' him from parenting. I will set consequences and time-outs and talk through better choices with my children. H feels this is pandering to them so, I guess because he feels he's not allowed to do what he actually wants to do, he just withdraws. This comes between us.

I guess if I felt that I'd messed up or I was worried about something or I needed a friend, some compassion and emotional support, I would not go to him. He's too critical and mean for that. Something about any perceived emotional neediness brings out a really horrible side to him. I lean on my friends and my own resources. We're not close. I struggle with respecting him and even liking him on most days. When he is affectionate and warm with me - which does happen much more often than it did - I struggle to relax and appreciate it because I find him to be quite dishonest about his feelings and motivations. He's not a communicator.

He's drinking more again this week. He's also lying about it. I didn't ask him how much he drank, but he volunteered that he'd had one bottle of beer and went to bed early. I actually found lots of empty bottles hidden behind a cabinet in the downstairs utility. There's no rule about what or how much he drinks: I just choose not to be in the room with him when he's drunk as he tends to be emotional and reactive and unpleasant so I will take myself away somewhere else without a comment. The fact he's clearly lying about it worries me, given the commitment to honesty.

I guess where we are right now is that I really don't think there have been any wholesale changes in who my H is or how he sees his role in our M and its troubles. I may just be afraid and need to give this more time, but what I see is a man who is 'keeping some rules' or 'pretending to keep some rules' in order to get back into the house, rather than a man who has had a heart change and is able to speak up clearly for what he wants and needs and follow through on that. I struggle with respect. I find his evasiveness and dishonesty pathetic rather than hurtful these days.

There is more that I could do. I could be more compassionate and understand that these behaviours come from fear. He's a man that runs entirely on shame - his fear of being shamed socially, and his believe that shame is actually something good that keeps people in line. His mocking behaviours towards me have always been about shaming me to moderate something about my behaviour he doesn't like or can't manage. I could try to view that with more pity and compassion and try to do my part in making our home a safe space for him. I'm just not sure that I want to. When I look at this coldly, I am not sure I get enough out of a fairly superficial connection with him to make it worth the effort. I'm financially independent and don't really rely on him for anything practical or emotional.

I guess my increased detachment has removed some of the power his abusive behaviours used to have over me. These days, when they do emerge (and it is much much much rarer than it was) I see them as rather childish and silly and beneath contempt. But it isn't really enough - that he's stopped being abusive. What is needed is openness and honesty from him. Some sense that he desires me, that my feelings and thoughts are of interest to him, that he's wanting to improve our connection and is willing to make some effort and take some risks to get there. And I am not sure that's really what he wants in a relationship, or he's capable of doing it.

I guess I need to decide if this shell of a marriage is worth anything. My children are happier now he's home: even Eldest. He's a better father than he was. He contributes fairly to the finances and there's never been any financial abuse or mistreatment or control from him. He works hard and he does a fair share of the domestic work. He would give me practical help if I asked for it - like driving me somewhere or running me an errand. He sometimes makes me packed lunches for work when he knows I have a long day ahead. With Youngest especially he is attentive and funny and caring . He has no social life, no real hobbies, no friends and only very superficial connections with his family. He's happy for me to see as much or as little of my friends as pleases me and has never put any limit on my GAL and never even suggested that I should. I actually think he prefers me to be out in the evenings as then there's no expectation he will need to interact with me. He doesn't mind that some of my friends and colleagues who I have lunches with are men and has never expressed any concern or jealousy (nor has he any reason to at all). It could be and has been a lot worse. I know many on this board would probably love to be where I am now. But even on our good days I catch myself looking at him and thinking, 'is this all there is?' and feeling pretty disappointed. I am sure he senses that and I am sure that has an effect on how open he is willing to be.

I don't know how much it is okay to say on here about the bedroom. Suffice to say it's never been that great. He doesn't tend to initiate: in better times, that was my job. He could decline (and would generally make lots of excuses rather than say he was angry) or he would be avoidant - pretending to be asleep or staying up late until after I had gone to sleep. On the very rare occasions he did initiate, he would be awkward and rushed - as if it was a duty he was attempting to get through quickly so he could do something preferable - and if I gave him suggestions or asked for more tenderness, he would generally be passive aggressive and offended. We have talked about this and he mentioned a few weeks ago that he felt he wanted to initiate more. I tried to welcome that, but I didn't really believe it would ever happen, and it hasn't. I struggle to be responsive to him (which of course will put him off initiating) because he's so reluctant and awkward and really quite cold. When he have tried to talk about this, he's been unable to say what is going on with him - only that I need to do or be something different. I take his suggestions and act on them, but they make no difference to his desire or behaviour. I don't want him to do something he does not want to do (he's used the phrase 'muscling through it' more than once in reference to what it is like for him to be with me).

Ugh. This is a big brain dump.

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Hi Alison,

Thank you for sharing all of that... this sounds really difficult. Are you guys in MC? Another option you might consider if Retrouvaille is too religious for you might be an Art and Science of Love workshop-- I think they are held outside the US-- or reading the 7 principles or something like that together?

I have three questions for you:

One, why do you want to stay married to him?

Two, can you share the wonderful things about him? Why you fell in love in the first place and what kept you together in the years before it went south?

Three, what do you want in a M and an H in the long term-- say x years from now when you're over this difficult patch? Where are you willing to compromise and where are you not? Have you thought about where you both want to go in terms of building a new MR together and what that would look like? It sounds like you don't know what he wants, but do you know what you want? Do you think he knows what he wants? Do you think it is possible for you to have these kinds of conversations? (ok, I know that is more than three questions... sorry! can't help it!) smile

As I read through your post, I wondered if you are in a place where it is hard to see the positives, or if there are really very little positives to see. As an outside observer, it seems like it isn't a very happy situation and that you don't have a lot of hope. I wonder if you read the post and pretended it were someone else's, what your advice to them would be.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2882497 01/27/20 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by may22
Hi Alison,

Thank you for sharing all of that... this sounds really difficult. Are you guys in MC? Another option you might consider if Retrouvaille is too religious for you might be an Art and Science of Love workshop-- I think they are held outside the US-- or reading the 7 principles or something like that together?



We're not in MC. Both in IC. I've been invited to go to his IC with him, which I put off for ages, then agreed to but was sick and couldn't manage. Now I've agreed we have a joint appointment scheduled in a couple of weeks. I've asked him what he wants to talk about and what he wants to get out of me being there, but he's been vague. Wants to 'go with the flow' rather than plan things out.


I have three questions for you:

Originally Posted by may22

One, why do you want to stay married to him?



I have to say, I don't know. My life would be mildly practically more difficult if he were not around. The kids are happier with him here. Financially it's slightly better for me. I hoped that things would be different. I don't really have that hope now.


Originally Posted by may22
Two, can you share the wonderful things about him? Why you fell in love in the first place and what kept you together in the years before it went south?


I used to appreciate his calmness, his steadiness. His reliability. The way he was careful and self contained. It always felt like he was a very deep man with some hidden depths he kept away from the world. Now I feel like he's either a) secretive and unwilling to be vulnerable or honest or b) there's not much there other than what I see on the surface. What kept us together? Some common goals about children, buying a house, a shared feeling of finding the world and other people pretty difficult (I no longer feel that way and am much healthier and more social than I was).

Originally Posted by may22
Three, what do you want in a M and an H in the long term-- say x years from now when you're over this difficult patch? Where are you willing to compromise and where are you not? Have you thought about where you both want to go in terms of building a new MR together and what that would look like? It sounds like you don't know what he wants, but do you know what you want? Do you think he knows what he wants? Do you think it is possible for you to have these kinds of conversations? (ok, I know that is more than three questions... sorry! can't help it!) smile

I know what I want and have communicate that. He tells me he wants to feel respected and supported. To have lots of time on his own to follow his own interests. I've asked him what type of practical things he'd like to change about our lives. He generally says he'd like the house to be more organised, for the mornings and evenings (school run times) to be calmer and less noisy and for him to have more time on his own. I've said I'd like to have more things to do together, which in principle he agrees with but he generally declines any invitations from me and has no GAL of his own. I have no idea if he feels lonely or bored or what interests of his he is wanting to make time for. He was alone for most of yesterday evening as I went away to a different room to read and do some crafts. He seemed to be watching television and eating. I tried to engage him in conversation this morning - I'm working today and he's not - and he wanted to talk to me a bit about his opinions about US sports. I listened and tried to ask some questions.

Originally Posted by may22
As I read through your post, I wondered if you are in a place where it is hard to see the positives, or if there are really very little positives to see. As an outside observer, it seems like it isn't a very happy situation and that you don't have a lot of hope. I wonder if you read the post and pretended it were someone else's, what your advice to them would be.


I don't have hope. I am wondering if I should accept that I've changed and he's just not a good fit for me any more, and get my emotional needs met elsewhere (I mean more GAL, not an EA or PA). I also know I have a tendency to be negative and to see the worst in things, and that's my fear talking. Life is generally calm and he is generally respectful to me. There's no sense of connection or fun or love there - and he does know I feel that way and I have asked for specific things that would help me. He doesn't do those things, has no suggestions of his own, will not give a reason for not going those things, and doesn't want to talk about any changes he wants to make to his own life so he's happier. I guess I can either accept this, or divorce him. I need to think on that more.

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Okay - this is my Monday update.

it's been fine this week. He's been a bit more snappy, a lot more distant, but not abusive. I've been cold myself, withdrawn, generally disappointed by him and though we haven't spoken about this, I know he can tell and it will be adding to the tensions.

I am wondering if it is time to throw in the towel? I don't enjoy spending time with him because basically, I just don't like him. I am civil and polite and I go through the motions of validating, acts of service, supporting him in front of the kids. That's made a lot of difference to him and though from his side things aren't perfect, I think he's satisfied enough with that. We're like friendly enough colleagues most of the time.

I wonder if it's the same for him, with me? He doesn't seem to want to spend time with me. And of course that makes sense - who would want to spend time with someone who didn't like them? It's a sad situation. I'd like him to be warm and interested in me and the world and his own life and have hobbies and friends and interests to share. I'd like him to delight in me and want to please me. I'd like to feel that way about him too. But I don't, he doesn't seem to, and we're both making a lot of efforts but 'that feeling' just isn't there. Perhaps I just don't love him any more. I'm not sure he's loved me for a long time. I don't fancy making myself into a different sort of person for his benefit, and I am sure he could rightly say exactly the same thing.

Perhaps I need to work on thriving in a loveless marriage - which I am more than capable of. Or perhaps I need to end this marriage so I can thrive outside of it and leave the way clear for a healthier and happier relationship at some point in the future. I have no idea what is keeping him in this marriage, except perhaps his needs for love and intimacy are very low, and as I've stopped the things that bothered him, he's happy enough, and selfish enough not to bother that I am not happy.

I guess I thought if he stopped being mean to me the rest of it - the good stuff - would come back. He has stopped being mean to me, and I've stopped caring about it - more or less, most of the time - and what's left between us now the fighting has stopped is... nothing much.

Part of me wants to have some kind of 'come to Jesus' talk with him, lay down the law and give him some kind of ultimatum. But it would be a destructive and pointless move: he can't force himself to feel the way he perhaps used to feel about me and doesn't any more. Just as I can't force myself to feel that either. I have told him how I feel. I've been very specific. He's a good one for the empty promises but I really don't want to get into that pursuit thing again. I only want what he's capable of offering freely and with a good heart, and that's - well - nothing much of value to me.

I have read around suggestions about rekindling things - spending time together, talking about things, emails or dates or fun time together. And if I am brutally honest, I have tried and extended invitations to him but when I think about spending an evening in his company listening to his smart sarcastic remarks about people he works with, or items on the news, or anything at all - he really only talks to moan or criticise something - I feel myself shudder and think what a nicer and happier time I'd have taking out my kids, spending time with my friends, or doing something creative and interesting on my own. Perhaps he's depressed - but he's had months in therapy and could have gone to a GP if he wanted to. Perhaps he doesn't know how to connect with me - but he's as able to read relationship books as I am and is as resistant to any sense he has anything to learn about the world, himself, relationships or me as he ever was. It's like living with a rock.

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(((Alison))) Big hugs to you, sister. I feel you on so many points. I have had some similar thoughts over the years that come and go, but perhaps not as strongly as you. Mostly, I do love my H. You are lacking respect, intimacy, and a solid foundation, so what are you trying to salvage really? These are hard questions! I wish we had answers for you!

Can I just say how much I love your openness and honesty? You think things through and you lay it all out there. It is amazing and so refreshing. I don't read you making any excuses or trying to convince us (yourself) that things are a certain way. There is no persuasive writing, and I am thinking that means you have come to a very honest place with yourself. Listen to yourself. Trust yourself.

I wish I had something more to offer you or some good advice. I don't. Perhaps this has been a long time coming? Sure, you got the guy, but do you actually want him? This is another reason that piecing is so hard, and that is that we often discover that no, we don't in fact want the person after all! I think your scenario is the most common one, but people like you are not the ones posting at sites like this.

There is not much you are describing about him that it sounds like is worth holding on to. He sounds rather unpleasant. I also don't know him and know what you loved about him so much before. You described him as even tempered and a nice balance, but you did not describe a man that is a strong partner. The lack of intimacy is also raising a big red flag for me.

As you know, this all takes such a long time. You don't have to make any decisions today, next week or even next month. I do think you are on the right path. You are being true to yourself. You do not have to change for anyone, even if that means losing your family unit. You can both still be good parents apart. And in time, you can find a better love and partner that treats you well. In time, your children will learn to understand and will be okay regardless. You don't have to stay in an unhappy life for anyone else.

Blu


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Thanks Blu. I've come a long way since I first started posting here! I wonder how much I'm feeling now is due to some deep rooted anger and resentment and hurt over how I've been treated, and some disappointment that he just does not have the skills to communicate affection and empathy and care in ways that I understand. I know him - he isn't doing this to spite me or to hurt me - he just genuinely isn't a talker, doesn't articulate his feelings or thoughts, isn't really that affectionate. We have talked about love languages but doesn't really understand the concept that the trick is to GIVE love in the other person's language, rather than for me to just accept that when he - for example - goes out at night to buy milk - I SHOULD just feel loved as that it how he means it. I know he's like this in all of his relationships - which is why he's alone all the time - and I did know this when I married him so he can't be blamed for ill treating me when he is just being who he is. I guess I've just changed a lot.

And I can look at things from his point of view. He has many of his own resentments. He sees my 180s and he's said before me having changed makes him feel angry as if it was so easy, why didn't I do it earlier? I can validate that whole-heartedly because I get it. But he can either be angry, or accept I've changed, or not - it's his work to do, not mine. He's also living with a wife who claimed to want more fun, more affection, more meaningful conversation, more quality time, but who is cold and unresponsive when he attempts, awkwardly, to do those things. It must be frustrating for him. He does try now and again to do what I want, and because I know it isn't really heartfelt (I am talking about the bedroom here specifically, but other things too) him doing it doesn't count for much for me. He must find me demanding and picky and impossible to please. I also know that all of my special qualities, my humour and empathy and clear thinking and creativity and loyalty and emotional sensitivity and curiosity and energy and interest in the world - are basically more or less invisible in my marriage: I leave all the good parts of me at the front door of my home and he never sees them. I can say I feel unappreciated but I also know I don't let him see any of my special qualities so I have a hand in that too.

I also know that we have very different day to day lives. We both work in the same sector (we don't share a workplace or employer) but I'm senior in a more creative, people focussed role and he's a little more junior in a more technical role. We play to our strengths and he's good at his job and works hard, but my work is much better paid, more flexible, has better conditions and is, to the outside world, more impressive. I believe he's always carried some resentment about that. It comes out now and again in some barbed remarks. I know he feels he hasn't done as well in life as he could have done. I don't accept responsibility for that, but he hasn't ever had much in the way of empathy or sympathy from me because - well - I don't mind being the breadwinner and would rather be independent than rely on a man - and because I find whining without making a plan to change the situation very unattractive. (Though I do plenty of that myself with my friends!). I guess he hasn't had the gentleness and sense of someone in his corner in our marriage that he'd have wanted. He's brought some of that on himself with his repellent behaviour, but not all of it.

Blu - if you have felt in the past like I have felt - what actions did you take that changed the situation for the better? Whether I stay in my marriage or not, I don't want to be bitter and mean and contemptuous of another human being - it's beneath me and I don't want to be that sort of person. I just don't seem to be able to shift it.

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Alison,

You really have come such a long way! And in only a years time? That is such a short amount of time when you think about the life of a M and family! How long have you known your H for?

I appreciate the way you look at your part, have personal insight, think about how you can grow and change, and you really take ownership and responsibility for yourself. As you are learning, it has to be both people doing this in the equation and you can't force the other person to do that. I also hear (read) you saying that there are some elements that were there previously when you got M that you accepted before. Does that mean you should accept those (what have become more) negative qualities now? GREAT QUESTION. I think about that too. Let me know when you figure it out ;-)

What have I done when I start to question my H and my own M? Honestly, I still see my sitch as a work in progress. I get frustrated and upset at my H sometimes too. I have to learn to separate what are normal disagreements in any M and what it is about him I don't like and cannot accept. I also have to check my emotions a bit and ask myself if my feelings are exaggerated because I am holding onto some hard feelings. I also have to continue to be responsible for the way I communicate my frustrations and feelings despite how justified I may feel in them. These are moments when I realize I still have a lot to work on. They also force me to see that in the past, before BD, I did less of this and was not a good partner in some ways. Overall, I do think my H is a good man, partner and father. When I really dissect what is bothering me or upsetting me, I don't often find much that I can't accept.

I am not sure how much that helps. I think my H has also done a lot of personal work and is accountable for his mistakes. I am not sure you are describing as much of that with your H. I really do think it takes two people to reconcile a broken M, even if perhaps he was not that type of character before. I don't like that he can be cold and nasty towards you at times, I just don't think I could ever be okay with that sort of thing.

Blu


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Hi Blue - thanks for that.

I think if there was a foundation of good - of a shared connection or intimacy or fun or humour - then I would find it easier to be tolerant of his lack of skills and differences from me in other ways. He is not an honest person and I know that - have always known it deep down - and I also know it has nothing to do with me but is his own issue. When things were better there was enough that we shared to put the difficult stuff into its proper place. I accepted he was generally evasive when he felt sensitive, but there was enough we could share on to stick us together. Now there's no abuse, but not much good stuff either. Just a stiff cordiality punctuated by his barbs now and again.

We had a bit of a talk earlier. He let me know he has cancelled the joint session with the IC as he's decided I would not feel comfortable with it. I called him out on that. I said he could cancel it for whatever reason he wanted, but I wouldn't accept blame for him deciding how I felt without asking me then acting on that. I also don't believe a word of it. I imagine - though I don't know - he anticipates feeling exposed, or my revealing a slant on something or a perspective that is vastly different to the way he's shared with his therapist. I don't think he trusts her - or anyone - enough to realise that of course two people can have different attitudes and feelings and neither one be lying. But I'm mind reading. I don't really know. He said he researched a different therapist and got in touch with him today. I don't really believe he did that. To be honest, my general feeling at the moment is to assume every word that comes out of his mouth is a lie. It doesn't help our relationship but is also based on long experience of his past behaviour.

I think he does want to reconcile the broken M. I do think that reconciliation would involve trust, introspection, risk-taking and communication skills that he doesn't have. I believe I have all the rest of it other than trust, and I do feel it is a wise and logical choice not to trust him. The more I think about this, the clearer the path ahead seems to be.

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Just another weekly update.

It's been a calm week, on the whole. Just two difficult moments. The first was about Eldest, who didn't answer his phone (we were both out in the evening - separately - asked him to keep his phone available and on so we could check in with him, and he did not do that). We were both anxious and worried something had happened, both pretty annoyed with Eldest about it. I suggested we leave it until the morning to address, but H started to tackle Eldest. He began by calling him pathetic and doing nasty impressions of him - pretending to wail and cry and rub his eyes and speak in a high pitched voice.

I noticed my own reaction: in the past this has made me cry or panic when directed at me and when directed at my children I've felt panic and anger. This time I thought he was being silly and ridiculous and I felt contempt and pity. I didn't let it go on for more than a minute or so, but interrupted, told him that behaviour was totally unacceptable then asked Eldest to come upstairs with me, where I spoke to him about why we were worried and upset, and what he needed to do better next time. I didn't get into a discussion about H's behaviour with Eldest - just redirected to what we expected from him and why. Eldest apologised to both of us and went to bed. H sulked for a bit and I ignored it.

I suppose he felt undermined by me (I am mind reading - he didn't say that, as he was choosing to sulk rather than communicate so I could be wrong) but we had a clear agreement that he wasn't going to speak to Eldest - or me - in that way and I don't feel that pretending that behaviour is okay in order to provide a united front to the kids is remotely acceptable or of benefit to either me, H or the kids. H brought it up with me in the morning and I just calmly stuck to my guns - said I was doing what we'd both agreed was a good approach with Eldest, that no-one could blame him for being worried and anxious and that affecting how he responded, but his response was precisely what we'd agreed wasn't going to happen any more and I wasn't going to tolerate it.

He did apologise to Eldest a day or so later, in a pretty blamey way ('I wouldn't have had to act like that if you'd have done as you were asked...') but an apology of any sort at all is pretty remarkable progress on his part so I've said nothing more about it. Still, it felt to me to have the conversation with Eldest. It was a pretty minor matter and resolved quickly but I do note that most of the positive parenting falls to me as H just does not have the relationship or communication skills to do anything but fall back on his usual tactics. Where he is at right now is to either withdraw and leave it to me, or do his usual thing. I don't want to treat him like a child - that's a bad dynamic - and I think I might have. I need to be assertive and clear and respectful in these situations and while I think I was closer to the mark than I have been in times past, I didn't hit it.

Today H has been sitting with his headphones on in the family room. He's exhausted from work and irritable. We have some vague plans tomorrow to go out for the day. I asked if we could look at some maps and make a bit of a plan so we could decide a time on when would be best to leave the house as I'd expect he wanted to sleep in. My timing was bad, I suppose. My intention was something like this, 'shall we make a plan so you get what you need, which looks like rest?' and he heard 'you're clearly going to lie in bed all day so how about I control everything so you can't?' he responded pretty defensively and rudely. I told him his tone was unacceptable and he'd misunderstood me, I rephrased my request to make it clear my intention was to take into account what he needed and wanted. He then wanted to have an argument about whether he was being defensive or not, which I ignored, then he issued us all with a time when we needed to be ready to leave, without really engaging with any discussion. He's back to sulking now.

I could have picked my timing better. All the signs were there that he was not in the mood for engaging with family life. He was genuinely tired and he's not able to sustain the minor progress he's made when he's feeling weary from his work. It is hard to leave him alone when he camps out in the family space, but I could do better at that. I could have looked at the maps on my own and made my own plan and just got on with things - letting him join us or not. Again, this is my being the adult and him tagging along as a child, or not - there's no real partnership there and that's what I am looking for but he's clearly not got the ability to provide it.

If he's still unpleasant tomorrow I will go out with the kids alone (no problem at all there: it was my plan and he can either come and have family GAL or he can stay at home, as he prefers) and he can do as he prefers. He has next week off work and he's already complaining about the things he thinks he must do around the house when he's away from work. I do a fair share of day to day housework and more of the childcare than he does, but there are some general maintenance tasks - some painting and repairs etc - that he has decided need to be done and will spoil his rest on his time off. I'm not going to engage in that. He can do it, or leave it, and if he leaves it well there's nothing there that's urgent and I can pay someone to do it if it becomes urgent.

Other than these things, he's actually been a little warmer and a little better in temper this week. Not exactly cheerful, but talking about his life and asking me about mine - at work etc - which is becoming more 'normal' for us but is a significant improvement on how things were before our separation. We have had some conversation about a summer vacation and he took the initiative in looking for a place to stay, checking it out with me and both kids, and booking it. That's also new and very welcome: it's good to feel that he's planning these things, taking a hand in organising them, and seeking out opinions and thoughts from me and the kids before making a decision. He chose a good place and I let him know I was grateful. He has also been texting me most days wishing me a good day at work (I've had a bit of a stressful time these past couple of weeks) and communicating clearly and reliably when he will be leaving and coming back. He's done a bit more of the morning work with the kids - breakfasts and so on for Youngest - and taken care of a couple of admin tasks regarding Youngest's school trips and clubs which is not usual for him either. I've been careful to express verbally that I am grateful for that, as I am.

With regards to IC / MC. H has decided he doesn't want me to come and see his IC with him - he wanted this for a while I was reluctant, when I finally agreed we couldn't get the dates to line up, I had to back out of one appointment due to illness and we made another, which he cancelled last week pretending it was because I felt uncomfortable about it. He messaged his IC a day or two later and told her he wanted to stop the sessions as he didn't feel comfortable attending with me and wanted to find a different therapist for the two of us. He told me he emailed a few possible MC therapists for us last week. I said if he wanted to attend someone together I'd like to be involved in reviewing their web pages and choosing someone we both felt positive about. He didn't respond to that. He's already sent off a few emails but I have no idea what the responses have been or what his plans are there. It's very confusing. He doesn't seem to know how to collaborate: only to lay down the law or to withdraw. It's no wonder he doesn't really have many friends if this is how is is generally with people (and I believe that it is).

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Hi Alison,

Just had a couple of thoughts to share with you which you can take or leave... one, the parenting thing is so, so difficult, especially in a situation where you're worried about your child. I can imagine that for both of you it brings up strong emotions and is difficult to navigate. Your H seems like he has some real issues of his own that are brought out by your eldest, and while I'm 100% in your corner on the best way to handle the parenting issues, I'm sure it is super hard for your H who doesn't have a lot of coping mechanisms for himself as it is. Kudos to you for not responding with panic or anger. I wonder if contempt is swinging a bit too far in the other direction and eventually you can settle somewhere in the middle where you can better help your H respond appropriately to your child. Also, I wonder if part of your subconscious reasoning to stick it out with your H (at least for the moment) is so that you are present to temper those responses and can support your child. (And maybe I'm reading way too much into all of this... again, for you to take or leave, just an observation from my vantage point.)

Another thought-- even though H is not working together with you as you'd like in selecting an MC, I think it is probably a good thing that he's interested in doing it, and also probably a good thing to keep his IC for him alone so that he has someone 100% there for him. Maybe eventually there will be issues that can come up in MC that he agrees to work on in IC (like the mimicking voices, etc.). Can you do your own research and suggest MCs you'd be willing to see? Also, just for clarification-- is he stopping his IC altogether, or just the idea of you seeing her together?

Hoping your day tomorrow is fun whether he tags along or not!


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2883601 02/02/20 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by may22
Hi Alison,

Just had a couple of thoughts to share with you which you can take or leave... one, the parenting thing is so, so difficult, especially in a situation where you're worried about your child. I can imagine that for both of you it brings up strong emotions and is difficult to navigate. Your H seems like he has some real issues of his own that are brought out by your eldest, and while I'm 100% in your corner on the best way to handle the parenting issues, I'm sure it is super hard for your H who doesn't have a lot of coping mechanisms for himself as it is. Kudos to you for not responding with panic or anger. I wonder if contempt is swinging a bit too far in the other direction and eventually you can settle somewhere in the middle where you can better help your H respond appropriately to your child. Also, I wonder if part of your subconscious reasoning to stick it out with your H (at least for the moment) is so that you are present to temper those responses and can support your child. (And maybe I'm reading way too much into all of this... again, for you to take or leave, just an observation from my vantage point.)

Another thought-- even though H is not working together with you as you'd like in selecting an MC, I think it is probably a good thing that he's interested in doing it, and also probably a good thing to keep his IC for him alone so that he has someone 100% there for him. Maybe eventually there will be issues that can come up in MC that he agrees to work on in IC (like the mimicking voices, etc.). Can you do your own research and suggest MCs you'd be willing to see? Also, just for clarification-- is he stopping his IC altogether, or just the idea of you seeing her together?

Hoping your day tomorrow is fun whether he tags along or not!


These are good points. Yes - H does clearly have issues with communication. I'm not sure I WANT to help him respond appropriately. There are books, classes, IC, various other resources he can draw on. I've managed to work my 180s in parenting without his assistance. If there was something I was doing or not doing that made it difficult for him, then yes, I'd want to hear about that so I could act in supportive ways. But I don't take responsibility for his behaviour and I can't take any responsibility for managing it or stopping it either. I guess it would be different if he was saying, 'when I get angry, I just behave like a complete Dingle sometimes - I really need to work on that,' as that would be music to my ears and I'd be as supportive as I could be. I don't expect him to be perfect. But he isn't capable of that level of self awareness or vulnerability. When he acts abusively it's generally someone else's fault and in his view the answer is that I or Eldest should not trigger it. Abuser's 101. I don't accept that. And yes, the contempt is swinging me too far in the other direction and I am at a loss as to how to handle that. A lot of the behaviours I was subject to this time last year have gone, but when they rear they ugly heads I am responding in an entirely different way and I think that is adding to the distance between us. I'm not weeping and placating any more and I see it for what it is: the flailing around of a rather immature man who isn't mature enough to look inwards. I wish I could feel compassion for that as I think it would help our marriage and if anyone has any suggestions to help me get to that place I am listening.

On your second point: when H moved out last year for the first three or four months he had little to no contact with Eldest and lavished care and attention on Youngest. Eventually he started a more cordial relationship with Eldest where there were some nice conversations and affection when he picked up or dropped off Youngest, and he started doing some actual parenting of Youngest - homework, school uniform cleaning, school drop off, rather than it all being fun time. That was an improvement. I don't know what the future holds, but I imagine if I BDd H and he moved out he'd really not make much of an effort to connect with and spend time with Eldest. These days I worry more about the effect the emotional neglect has on Eldest and the obvious favouritism rather than the abuse. I believe it's nothing to do with Eldest, but about H's sense of inadequacy about being able to communicate with a young man (Youngest is a child and so much easier to control) but I don't know if Eldest sees it that way - I know in the past he's felt very unfairly treated and rejected by H and I can see why. H doesn't have much to do with Eldest day to day: I'm the one who has the conversations about school work, is up to date with his friends, where he's going, which of his teachers he has trouble with. H doesn't really know him any more. It's been about three years since he attended a parent teacher conference, for example. I don't think he'd be able to name any of his friends. His knowledge of Eldest is basically a laundry list of complaints and improvements he believes he needs to make. It's sad. I try to build Eldest's self esteem daily while also setting positive boundaries appropriately. Eldest is in therapy and I've seen great improvements in his mood the last few months.

H has decided he isn't going to see his IC anymore. He used to go weekly, but that tailed away to fortnightly, three weekly. I don't know if that was a plan between them as suited his needs and goals, or due to his own lack of commitment. I agree that his IC is for him only and he needs to decide who and how often and it isn't much to do with me. I don't ask about it and have little to no knowledge of what they discussed. In terms of an MC, I'd want to be involved with who we chose to go and see. Because the glimmers of self awareness that H was showing in the summer seem to have dried up entirely, I don't really understand what he wants to work on in MC. He actually forwarded me one of the emails he'd received from a therapist last night, but she was very clear that she didn't see couples. I am confused about what he was asking. Approval from me on his choice of IC? That's not mine to give and none of my business. I did - last year - send him a list of MCs I would be willing to see and said he was welcome to choose any of them, but the one he did choose ended up seeing him on his own as she didn't think he was ready to have MC. I have no idea if she's worked with him to the point that she believes he's ready or not. When I ask him, I get one word or evasive answers. I replied to the email just stating that this therapist didn't do couples work. He hasn't responded as yet. I think it's likely that he didn't read the email or take in the information rather than there was any game-playing at work. He tends to get overwhelmed by conversations, long emails or text and doesn't really take in the detail.

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Gosh Alison, that is hard to deal with. I have kept up with your sitch but not posted for a while. If ever a couple needed MC, it's you two. Marriage is hard and communication is tough, but particularly with your H. I think though that you did have MC a while ago if I remember rightly? It's a bit of a red flag that your H is not going to IC any more (or he is finding a new one? In which case that's probably positive?) You sound like you both want more but don't know how to get there, and you seem to have doubts that your H is capable of getting there. He HAS shown progress though, and it sounds like you have been reinforcing his efforts, that's a positive thing.

I have no advice, just sending some hugs and hope that you two both get to MC and it can start moving things in a positive direction.

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Last edited by job; 02/04/20 02:57 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
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