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Originally Posted by unchien

In healthy relationships, partners accept each other's shortcomings, support each other, compromise, and have open and honest discussions. I know this to be true even though I can't say I've experienced it yet myself. I hope one day to find it!

But even in those relationships there will always be some sort of conflict. I think it's all about how you work as a couple to resolve the conflict. It sounds like you have made a little progress with your H - whether or not you end up piecing, it's encouraging to hear that you are able to work together better than before, if only for your children's sake.


Yes - I think it would be unhealthy if there were NO conflict - given that two fully functioning human beings are going to have different needs and preferences and ways of seeing the world. In the past, H generally thought that there were 'facts' and 'the right way to do things' and 'mistakes' and 'wrong ways to do things' whereas I often thought that we had different approaches and styles, both of which had pros and cons. He seems to have softened on this a LOT over the past few months and I do see him taking more account of what I bring to parenting and my own perspectives and experiences are a little more valued than they used to be, even if they differ from his. It's refreshing, and it does make the task of positive co-parenting easier.

Originally Posted by unchien
Regarding your H's inability to say sorry, it is what it is. I sense you are questioning your feelings and judging them, rather than just accepting what they are. Your H used to be emotionally and verbally abusive - he has toned it down, but you see echoes of his prior behaviors in his inability to apologize, and perhaps more importantly, his inability to accept responsibility in situations such as the conflict with your eldest. It makes sense to me that you can't completely ignore the past, and would also question his changes. Is he just changing outward behaviors, or has he changed the fundamental thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that drive those behaviors?


That is EXACTLY it. I can't ignore the past, in that my first priority - beyond piecing and even beyond positive co-parenting, is that I will not be subject to his abuse nor subject my children to it ever again. That's more important than anything. And he is not being abusive. But I don't know if that's because he's restraining himself and the restraint is easier as he is less stressed, in a mentally healthier place and seeing us all a lot less, or because the fundemental attitudes and believes that led to his abusive behaviours have changed. I don't know that, and until I do know it I don't want to get closer to him. I also need to factor in that I will be examining pretty benign and minor conflicts through a lens of fearfulness and wariness - if you expect the worst, you often find it. I'd much rather be safe than sorry though. (And I mean emotionally safe - I don't really fear that he would physically harm myself or the children).

Originally Posted by unchien
Regarding your H going to IC, is he sharing what he works on there? My W goes to IC and I have no clue what they work on, but after 6 months I see no changes. My own experience in IC has been that it is a great supplement to personal growth, but the impetus for my changes came from outside IC. I would not hold out hope that IC is necessarily going to initiate change.


He is not. I am not sure if he would be open to doing that. He did share a few things, a couple of months ago, but I didn't comment or ask for more information and he hasn't done it again. I could ask, and I could show more interest, but my feeling is that he needs to do this for himself, regardless of what I feel or think about it. I don't talk to him at all about my IC and I never have - though he doesn't ask me. He has in the past spoken quite cruelly about my IC (called it 'mumbo jumbo' and used it as evidence that I am unstable or my perceptions are based in emotions and not in facts and so can be dismissed) but he has stopped doing that completely now.

I do see evidence of change, and that might be to do with his IC. He is a much better listener then he used to be and makes many more empathic statements, like 'I can see how it would feel that way to you' and 'I understand that given our past this is something you'd be wary about'. I have not seen him angry or impatient for a very long time, and other than some minor skirmishes about parenting - when he did not resort to belittling language or sarcasm at all - things have been peaceful.

I know he wants me to come with him to see his IC. He mentioned that a couple of weeks ago, and said that his IC had said it would be useful to get my perspective on things. I said I'd think about it - though in the moment my heart sank as in my experience, giving him my perspective on things only opens the door for him to tell me that I'm wrong, lying, deluded, irrational, manipulative, over-emotional etc. I think I could communicate with him better now, in non-blaming language. I don't know how open he is to actually valuing my different experience and perception when it comes to more difficult topics about our marriage. I also don't have anything to say to him that I haven't said before, and presumably if he wanted to cast his mind back he could recall what I'd said in the past and take that to his IC. I haven't shared these thoughts with him.

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Originally Posted by unchien

Is he just changing outward behaviors, or has he changed the fundamental thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that drive those behaviors?


I have spent a long time reflecting on this.

Day to day, I am seeing lots of changes with my H and though I'd still consider it to be early days, he has been more or less consistent with those changes. He is not perfect and I am not waiting for perfection. But the behaviours I absolutely cannot accept any longer have stopped. The man is allowed to be irritable or to have different opinions from me now and again - and we seem to deal with that (in the context of friendly co-parenting) well enough.

I guess I will just have to trust there's been an inward change, or decide I don't trust the inward change, and that is on me. There is no looking into anyone's soul.

I can also see he is in a similar position - seeing that I am much more emotionally and practically self sufficient (which was a change that was needed) and much more confident in setting boundaries with the kids (and him!). He will never know for sure if these are just outward changes or actual inward ones.

He mentioned how well things were going and said he had a fear of being 'sucked back' to how things used to be. I validated. I told him I felt like that too - that the way things were now was much better - we even laugh and have a bit of warmth and affection creeping back in, in a natural way - but I think in some ways we're both holding each other at arm's length a little, afraid to address the real problems in case we get back into that horrible place we were in last year and for the first half of this year.

I do feel ready to take a tiny step forward with him, but I am not sure how to do that. I am not sure I want to go with him to see his IC. That should be for him. But I am also afraid of pulling back the curtain and addressing the hard stuff in case it wipes out this fragile gentleness and goodwill we have managed to find for each other again.

We walk together alone once a week - just for an hour or so. It gives us time to catch up on the kids without them actually being there - which was needed - but recently the conversations have turned more towards ourselves - his work, my work, his friendships and my friendships - without us actually discussing our relationship. I don't feel afraid of him during these conversations but I am afraid of taking it into more difficult territory.

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Alison -

This all sounds really really positive, regardless of how your M turns out. Taking it slow seems like the right approach. Do you feel a sense of urgency like your H is pressuring you to take a step forward? If not, it sounds like you are making great progress in your communication with each other on your weekly walks, so as long as those continue, you are still making strides.

Also you made a point early in your thread about allowing him to be irritable. I also take this as a good sign - in that he is in control of his emotions and comfortable enough in expressing his views without regressing into old patterns. Someone who is faking it may seem overly pleasant all the time.

Take all this with a grain of salt... I'm only reacting to your post, and you know your H.

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Alison - any updates?

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Hi everyone

it's been a long time since I posted. Time for an update, I think?

So - I am still seeing my IC. We're still working on my childhood, and at times it is difficult and upsetting but I am generally seeing progress. I feel a little more confident in setting boundaries with my children and others, and more compassionate towards myself when I find those things difficult. I can see how many of my decisions as an adult - especially in how I decided to handle myself and my emotions in my marriage - were powered as much by fears implanted in me by a toxic childhood as they were rational responses to pretty shoddy behaviour on the part of my husband. I am not at the bottom of this and perhaps I never will be. But I see improvement.

H is back in the family home. It was a quick decision - perhaps too quick - and it has not been easy. I wanted him to come back, he wanted to be here, legally I did not have a right to prevent him from being here. He tells me he feels like he has more space - is more able to be open about his feelings, feels more respected as a parent and sees me doing the 'hard' stuff of parenting more often. I'm glad to hear that from him. He is definitely more affectionate and respectful of Eldest, and spends good time with Youngest. There has been no hint of violent or aggressive behaviour, coercion or manipulation from him. The criticism has been dialled right down. He's grumpy now and again - but we all are. In some aspects of our lives I see him being more adult and taking more responsibility. In others, I see the same passivity and blaming of others that I saw so much before BD and in the aftermath of it. I have no concerns about EA or PA from him at all - he is open and transparent about where he is and what he's up to - though generally he's either working or at home.

Me - I am ambivalent. Extremely. I need to think more - especially in my IC - about how my ambivalence is actually a way of protecting me from making a decision. When I feel sad - which is reasonably often - it feels like I am left to choose between a sub-standard marriage to a man whose flaws are very apparent to me - or the pains and emotional and practical discomforts of a divorce. Neither seem particularly attractive right now. I have GAL. I see my friends often. I am taking care of my health. I do my share in the house. My work is going well and I have applied for that promotion, which I will hear about soon.

But being stuck here with regards to my marriage keeps me in a 'victim' position and means I don't have to make any changes. I do realise that. I also realise my ambivalence is self inflicted. I have the financial independence and information I need to go for a divorce. I would manage on my own okay, even if it was painful for a long time. It feels like the easier option. It feels very frightening to me to commit to working on a marriage with a man who is so flawed. I can't say he is abusive, as he was, but he isn't who I wish he was. I feel utterly disillusioned. I tend not to bother bringing things up with him these days as I feel I can predict how he'll respond and I'm not interested in hearing the usual responses. I do think he prefers that and I do think he is also making effort to be different as far as he can. I know I need to be different to, but other than self-reliance, GAL and STFU, I don't know how to make that difference in myself. I do know that outlining to him what it is I am unhappy with has never provoked change or empathy and I have little faith doing it again would.

He has carried on seeing his IC but let the appointments slip from weekly, to fortnightly, to three weekly. I don't know the last time he went on his own. I made a boundary that I didn't want to hear about his sessions - they were private to him (I believe he was weaponising his reports of them) and that has been useful for me. We have an appointment to see his IC together in a couple of weeks. Again - I feel ambivalent about that.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me to get out of this ambivalence? Obviously I am making a choice - he didn't force himself into the family home - I said it was what I wanted to. I do have choices. It's just none of them seem that appealing. I don't want to be in this mindset. I want to pick an option and work towards it wholeheartedly, having faith that it will improve things for me and my children, even if it is difficult or painful in the short term. I know there are no guarantees and that I will need to be resilient enough to bear some risk. I am not sure the 'prize' of being in a marriage with the man who I am currently living with is enough of an incentive to put myself through the pain and risk of wholeheartedly making a repair. Am I looking at this in the wrong way?

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Does anyone have any suggestions for me to get out of this ambivalence? Obviously I am making a choice - he didn't force himself into the family home - I said it was what I wanted to. I do have choices. It's just none of them seem that appealing. I don't want to be in this mindset. I want to pick an option and work towards it wholeheartedly, having faith that it will improve things for me and my children, even if it is difficult or painful in the short term. I know there are no guarantees and that I will need to be resilient enough to bear some risk. I am not sure the 'prize' of being in a marriage with the man who I am currently living with is enough of an incentive to put myself through the pain and risk of wholeheartedly making a repair. Am I looking at this in the wrong way?


Hi Alison, thanks for the update, good to hear from you again! The ambivalence, well your H abused you and stripped the love out of the marriage so that is an understandable reaction. Do you know what the opposite of love is? Not hate, it's ambivalence. You cease to care. How do you get the love back? Well it's not easy. It doesn't really sound like your H is doing anything to reignite the love, sounds almost like he moved back in because it was the lesser of whatever evils he's facing down. Here is my suggestion- have you read 5LL? If not then please do so. Try and appeal to him through his love language. The book talks about how marriages die because both spouses are sitting back doing nothing while waiting for the other to fill their "love tank". So they both sit on empty, and over time resentment starts to build. But if one starts using 5LL to fill the other's love tank, then before they know it the other wants to fill theirs as well. It's human nature- we want to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. So if I think my GF is being cold and distant, then I want to "punish" her for it but if she is showing me love then I am looking for ways to show it back to her. So you might try that, the worst that can happen is it gets no response from him. But you're ambivalent anyway, so a lack of a response from him isn't going to crush you. And at least you will have tried something rather than just waiting for things to change on their own (which will never happen).


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Hi Alison!

I was so glad that you came back and updated! I don't post much, but I often check and look for posters, including you and Dilly. I hope she is well!

I like the advice that AS offered you. 5 LL is a great book for anyone to read in any R because it helps us to understand that we give and receive love differently. M H is acts of service all the way. He is constantly helping at work, at home, is a natural care taker, and he likes fixing things and getting things done. I tend to see those things as our daily job and don't see them as showing love. After all, I do similar deeds and it's because I have to. I have to stop and recognize are perceptions are different and it's not so much about the actions alone. When i show appreciations for his actions it means a lot to him. He is showing me he loves me every time he goes to Costco or cleans out the garage. My LL is more quality time. We are wired differently.

Ambivalence (you use that word a lot) is your protective mechanism! It is important not to ignore it. If you feel like a dark alley is sketchy, you will not blindly walk through it. Your M and your H were not safe for a long time. Of course you are not going to jump back in! I think you are starting to understand why some of us say this takes such a looonnnnggggg time. All of it does -- the moving on or the R. You are still on the fence a bit.

From my perspective you are just where you need to be. I think it is okay that things are not steadily moving in one direction or the other. Why not just continue on as is, see your IC, focus on your day to day life, and continue to create moments of joy. In time, just maybe a much longer time, things will become more clear for you.

Please come back soon, we care about you :-)

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Thank you AS. I have read the 5LL. I don't know for sure what language H's is, but I think it is probably Acts of Service and I could do better in showing love in that way. When I first read your post - a day or two ago now - my first thought was 'well why should I do work for him to help him feel loved when I feel so unloved myself?' but I know that's what the book is about and somebody has to go first. I will think on this and try to take some action today and tomorrow. I notice that at least once a day H is trying to express love to me using his LL and will bring me coffee or do some household task that is usually mine. He will occasionally initiate intimacy. Neither of those things mean much to me as they don't feel like the 'real' him. I am not able to be responsive to him in bed very often. He doesn't pressure me at all and is generally understanding so long as I pretend I have a headache or am just tired. If I tell him the truth - I don't feel responsive because I don't feel emotionally safe or cherished as a result of his nastiness - then he gets annoyed. I don't see the nasty side of him so much any more, but I have this impression that it's in there, and anything other than that is just fake and I can't let myself fall for it. And I try to hide feeling like that as I know it doesn't get either of us anywhere.

I feel depressed today. Just deep-down, bone-deep sad. I don't bring this sadness to my H very often, because no matter how I try to phrase it (I know about I-statements and non-blaming language) he takes it as a criticism, and when he feels criticised he comes out fighting and can be vicious. Even if my sadness is nothing to do with him he's more likely to offer critical statements aimed at helping me to see why my sadness is of my own making (and yes, sometimes that is true) than he is to offer comfort. I have tried telling him that what I need is just comfort, a hug, some reassurance, and he says - sometimes - that he isn't an infinite resource of soothing. Perhaps I am too sad and ask for too much. Perhaps I need to get better at just moving through this sadness. If that's the case then I am willing to accept it, but I don't know where it leaves our marriage.

I suppose the reason I am sad can't be comforted away anyway. He's just a man with some deeply unpleasant qualities that have hurt me. I hoped he'd be my safe place and the person in my corner and on my side and he just isn't. He won't ever not be the man who did the things he did. I am terribly deep down disappointed in that. The fact that he's changed a little and is making efforts and is back in the family home doesn't really change the way I feel about him. Of course he will be able to sense that.

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Blu - I crossed with you. Thank you. This is good advice. I will try to give it more time. I feel very sad today. I guess I had my H up on a pedestal for a long time and this is a kind of emotional hang-over, knowing that whatever happens from here on out he will always be the man who did those things. I wish none of it had happened.

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I am feeling better today. Have had some time to reflect. Whatever my H has been in the past and whoever he is now, I need to concentrate on my side of things. I do want my marriage to work if it can, and if it ends, I want to know I did whatever I could on my own side of things. That means setting boundaries, not accepting the unacceptable, but it also means learning to let go of resentment without going back to the doormat I was, and it means accepting he has done me harm and trying to love him in a way that means something to him.

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