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Originally Posted by AlisonUK

If this is dropping the rope, how does piecing work? I can't imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship where my job is to convince someone else of my worthiness of love and respect ever again. I don't plan on doing that with him or with anyone else. Does that mean I will be spending the rest of my time alone?


Hi Alison. Good to hear you have dropped the rope. It is a very hard thing to do, and I would seem to think that it's something all LBS have to constantly work at.

I think piecing begins to happen when the WAS starts to wake up out of the fog and begins to pursue the LBS. Of course by that point the LBS may have decided that they do not want to be with someone like the WAS anymore, or they may in fact have moved on to a new R. I think a lot of this depends on the time it takes the WAS to go through their issues and how patient the LBS is.

You won't spend the rest of your time alone if you don't want to. You have the control here on how long you choose to stand and on if or when you decide to move on.

For me, it's been a little over a year now. Granted I am still IHS, but for all intents and purposes, that is how long I have been alone. It was awful for half a year, now I am used to it - but very saddened by it bc it is not what i want.

But i also know that this is all still a period of transition and my story is not finished yet. It seems that yours is not either.

Hang in there, and stay strong smile

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
If this is dropping the rope, how does piecing work?


Oh man. Have you kept up on Steve's threads? It really highlights the ups and downs of piecing. It's hard work. It's difficult for the LBS to learn to trust the WAS again, and it's tough for the WAS to commit and not stray back to old ways. It's actually a lot easier to start a new R with someone else in my opinion. I'm not saying it's not worth the hard work, but just strictly from an effort point of view a new R is so much easier.

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I can't imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship where my job is to convince someone else of my worthiness of love and respect ever again. I don't plan on doing that with him or with anyone else. Does that mean I will be spending the rest of my time alone?


Not at all, BD makes us feel worthless and unworthy of others but as we recover and start meeting people/ flirting/ talking and eventually dating, we realize we are so far above that kind of treatment. We are high-value! We're loyal, dependable, stable people. The kind of people that others out there are actively searching for. You'll eventually realize that others need to prove their worth to you, not the other way around.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Not at all, BD makes us feel worthless and unworthy of others but as we recover and start meeting people/ flirting/ talking and eventually dating, we realize we are so far above that kind of treatment. We are high-value! We're loyal, dependable, stable people. The kind of people that others out there are actively searching for. You'll eventually realize that others need to prove their worth to you, not the other way around.


I do feel like this, and I am glad to. But I meant something slightly different. If I can clarify?

It struck me the other day that I really don't care what H thinks of my parenting decisions. I'd prefer it if we could co-operate peacefully, and most of the time we do right now. And that's great. But now and again I will do something I think is best and he won't like it, and he's going to have to live with that. I'm confident that I am a good enough parent most of the time and that when I make mistakes, they are errors and not instances of abuse.

That's a huge thing for me because I spent my life trying to please and placate him and get his approval and feeling like a deep down terrible person unless I had it. Obviously I don't think I am a perfect parent - I can and will make mistakes, and when I do I will correct them, and again, I don't particularly care what H thinks of that.

So I wondered, if this is dropping the rope and the healthy way to go about things, how do people build healthy relationships when they don't really care that much about what the other one thinks of them?

I realise this is an awkward and clumsy question - probably betraying my innocence in what an adult healthy relationship actually looks like. And I mean it theoretically as I'm not piecing, don't really intend to start anything with anyone else, and am just curious about what I don't know and haven't experienced myself.

How can a marriage work when both parties are healthy and differentiated and detached from the opinions of the other? What does that look like when there is disagreement?

Last edited by AlisonUK; 09/11/19 05:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by AlisonUK


So I wondered, if this is dropping the rope and the healthy way to go about things, how do people build healthy relationships when they don't really care that much about what the other one thinks of them?


Wow - since I read your post, I have been thinking about this all morning, Alison.

I'm no relationship expert and I'm so far from piecing it's not even an option at this point, but in my opinion at some level, at least a small part of us has to care what our partner thinks of us. Otherwise what is the point of being in a relationship?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but to me there has to be some level of reciprocated feelings, and those feelings would seem to indicate that your partner does care.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

How can a marriage work when both parties are healthy and differentiated and detached from the opinions of the other? What does that look like when there is disagreement?


To me, all marriages require some level of attachment. It's kind of the definition of marriage, IMO. I think detachment is necessary for those of us in troubled R's - as a way to distance ourselves and protect ourselves from the chaos emanating from our WAS's.

I think the balance between differentiation, detachment and attachment all hinges on whether the relationship is a healthy one or not. All manner of grievances or mistakes are potentially forgivable in a healthy R, while this is not the case at all in an unhealthy R.

I've always thought of a healthy MR as having 3 separate entities. The 2 partners individually and the 3rd being the Marital unit of the combined two.

Of course, differentiatiating yourself in an MR is never a finished task - it is always something that you have to work at.
That is one of my own personal issues that I am working on - I made the error of not evolving in the R.

Others will probably have different views - but that's my take on it.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK

It struck me the other day that I really don't care what H thinks of my parenting decisions. I'd prefer it if we could co-operate peacefully, and most of the time we do right now. And that's great. But now and again I will do something I think is best and he won't like it, and he's going to have to live with that. I'm confident that I am a good enough parent most of the time and that when I make mistakes, they are errors and not instances of abuse.

That's a huge thing for me because I spent my life trying to please and placate him and get his approval and feeling like a deep down terrible person unless I had it. Obviously I don't think I am a perfect parent - I can and will make mistakes, and when I do I will correct them, and again, I don't particularly care what H thinks of that.

So I wondered, if this is dropping the rope and the healthy way to go about things, how do people build healthy relationships when they don't really care that much about what the other one thinks of them?

I realise this is an awkward and clumsy question - probably betraying my innocence in what an adult healthy relationship actually looks like. And I mean it theoretically as I'm not piecing, don't really intend to start anything with anyone else, and am just curious about what I don't know and haven't experienced myself.

How can a marriage work when both parties are healthy and differentiated and detached from the opinions of the other? What does that look like when there is disagreement?

Alison -

I'm piggy-backing off IW here, and also speculating more than stating facts.

I think healthy relationships can involve attachment. But it is a secure attachment where each person is self-differentiated and supports both the relationship AND each other's individual needs and desires.

I can see where this gets cloudy. Are you doing something nice for your partner to please them and seek approval, or because you love them? It's confusing, and this is why I suspect I will proceed cautiously in any future relationship (including the possibility of reconciliation).

I sense you have this new-found confidence and self-awareness in your values. You are confident and assertive about your decisions. This does not mean you don't care about what someone else thinks. It just happens your H is judging you harshly, and in a way where you cannot have a reasonable conversation. In a healthy relationship, I imagine your partner would support your decisions, or if they disagreed at least have a respectful, honest, open discussion about them.

I don't know if this will resonate with you. You know about my story of grabbing my son's leg. My W calls this abuse. I call it a parenting lapse where I wish I had restrained my emotions better and handled it more calmly. I do not dismiss what I did, but at the same time, my son was not physically hurt, and it was unconditionally not abuse. I wish rather than taking a judgmental and aggressive stance, we could have had an open, honest, caring discussion about how to make better decisions. Even if we disagreed somewhat.

One last point: When you don't care as much about what other people think, that enables you to be a more open and honest person which I suspect will naturally draw other like-minded people.

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Thanks for your posts. I've been mulling them over for a good few days now, especially in the light of a couple of parenting type talks that H and I have had recently.

His opinion is that I was so permissive with the children, and such a door-mat, that he was forced to be the disciplinarian and he was much stricter and more critical than he wanted to be because he was making up for what he saw as my deficiencies and the impact they were having on the children.

I could equally say the same thing - he was so strict and critical and berating of them, that I didn't want to add to it, and found myself offering comfort and understanding when I could see the kids were hurt by his harshness, lack of love and affection and praise.

I guess 'who started it' doesn't matter (we're not in agreement on that - his pride doesn't allow him to let that part of the narrative go!!) but resolving it does. We are in agreement that we both need to move a little bit more into the middle - that I'm a bit firmer and more boundaried with the kids, and he offers more praise, love and affection and checks the emotionally and verbally abusive tendencies in the way he speaks to them. I can say that we both have been doing that.

It's interesting though. I WAS a doormat with the kids - for whatever reason - but I was with him too. And I think the irony escapes him that in wanting me to be firmer in my boundaries with the kids, I've also been firmer in my boundaries with him. You can't have one without the other. That's worked much better for me and I feel more centered and happier and generally more 'safe' in my interactions with him. I don't see so much of the verbal and emotional abuse any more. He's stopped that, and he's also started being - well not affectionate - but complimentary of my parenting now and again, and much warmer and friendlier in interactions overall.

What's sad, and is where I am at the moment, is that I am struggling to feel respect for him. He has a lot of issues which he claims he is working on in IC - and that's his business. He works hard and is reliable and dependable - he meets his responsibilities financially without my reminding or nagging him, he is fairly involved, giving his working patterns, with the kids school lives and extra curricular stuff - he's not an 'absent' dad. He's taking care of himself and his health much better, and that's good too.

Where I struggle to find respect is in his need for dominance. It's not coming out as verbal or emotional abuse any more - perhaps just because I don't see him that much - but I do see it in his inability to take responsibility. He still can't apologise. He made a pretty minor mistake the other morning - blamed it on Eldest (who reacted angrily) and when he realised his mistake, instead of climbing down and owning it, said that Eldest's reaction was the thing that needed dealing with. Eldest did need to go elsewhere and calm down, and I did have a firm conversation with him about communicating through words and not through slamming doors - but at the same time, he's a teenage boy who has been through a lot, and is incredibly frustrated, and in that situation he was right, he was not being listened to, and I'd have been frustrated to. Eldest said: 'he should have said sorry to me, but he just can't - he's not strong enough,' and while I listened and did not badmouth H to Eldest, I thought he was exactly right.

A man who is not strong enough to admit when he's made a mistake - however minor - and is not able to apologise is not a man I can respect. I've noticed he can admit fault at work - but only to his 'superiors' and this leads me to wonder if there's a bit part of him that considers wife and children to be 'inferior'. I don't know this for sure. But I do know I am only interested in a relationship with a man strong enough to be vulnerable, and honest enough to treat his children with respect and care and me as an equal.

It's a shame - because day to day things are going well, and I think we would be on the road to piecing in some form or another if I didn't feel this undercurrent of disappointment and lack of respect for him. He deserves a wife who can admire and respect him, and who can feel proud of him. I don't need him to be perfect. But I do need him to be comfortable with not being perfect himself and have some humility. And he's just not that person.

I think the key here is to step back a bit more, to be honest. I won't diminish him to his children as that is not to their benefit, but I can listen empathically to Eldest while holding him to a standard of respectful and polite behaviour. I can admit my own mistakes and shortcomings and work on them. That feels like more than enough to be getting on with right now.

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I did have a question in there, actually!!

Which is, in mature relationships, you'd expect it not to be all wide-eyed adoration and admiration, but also include an admission of and an acceptance of the spouse's shortcomings. I'd hope to be in a relationship where my spouse could accept my shortcomings. I can accept that I am not perfect and I am working on my flaws.

Is it a flaw in me that I am unable to accept this shortcoming of his? His inability to be vulnerable enough to say sorry? That feels like a pretty big deal to me - a deal-breaker - and that isn't something I say lightly. The ability to take responsibility, to say sorry and to make repairs seems to me to be a fundamental part of being a mature adult and one of the foundations of a healthy relationship. Am I wrong in this?

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Accepting flaws is a good thing. I've only come to that way of thinking recently (annoyingly!).

Owning your flaws and addressing them/improving them is a great attitude to take. Means the next time your S sees you, you'll be portraying a somewhat "lighter" demeanour as you'd have dealt with more things since the last time they saw you. For your H, his shortcomings are not your problem. It is up to him to decide to deal with them.

My situation is slightly different to yours in that I'm the one who has wronged my W, but she has walked and started D whereas I wanted MC and R.
She is most certainly not perfect. She has tons of flaws - disorganised, scatty, hypochondriac, fear that she's not liked, loud, opinionated - but I accepted them. Yes they annoyed me sometimes but not enough to quit a R or M with her.

I don't think it's a bad thing that you don't accept this inability to apologise. That's slightly different - it is a fundamental thing I agree. Taking responsibility, analysing your mistake and working on it, and make amends is a positive thing for anyone whether they're in a R/M or not. Mature way of thinking? Definitely.


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T - 8 yr, M - 3 yr
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S - 25 May 2019 & D bomb - 29 July 2019
D & House sale final - Feb 2020
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I don't want to tip over into self righteousness. I want to let him go his own way, and instead concentrate on where I find apologies hard. My H was abusive and I allowed that to happen - to the detriment and damage of myself and also, more importantly, my children. But that doesn't let me off the hook for the various ways in which I failed him as a wife. I want to concentrate on that, without putting all my effort into 'attracting him back' because I don't know if I want him back!

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I did have a question in there, actually!!

Which is, in mature relationships, you'd expect it not to be all wide-eyed adoration and admiration, but also include an admission of and an acceptance of the spouse's shortcomings. I'd hope to be in a relationship where my spouse could accept my shortcomings. I can accept that I am not perfect and I am working on my flaws.

Is it a flaw in me that I am unable to accept this shortcoming of his? His inability to be vulnerable enough to say sorry? That feels like a pretty big deal to me - a deal-breaker - and that isn't something I say lightly. The ability to take responsibility, to say sorry and to make repairs seems to me to be a fundamental part of being a mature adult and one of the foundations of a healthy relationship. Am I wrong in this?

Alison,

In healthy relationships, partners accept each other's shortcomings, support each other, compromise, and have open and honest discussions. I know this to be true even though I can't say I've experienced it yet myself. I hope one day to find it!

But even in those relationships there will always be some sort of conflict. I think it's all about how you work as a couple to resolve the conflict. It sounds like you have made a little progress with your H - whether or not you end up piecing, it's encouraging to hear that you are able to work together better than before, if only for your children's sake.

Regarding your H's inability to say sorry, it is what it is. I sense you are questioning your feelings and judging them, rather than just accepting what they are. Your H used to be emotionally and verbally abusive - he has toned it down, but you see echoes of his prior behaviors in his inability to apologize, and perhaps more importantly, his inability to accept responsibility in situations such as the conflict with your eldest. It makes sense to me that you can't completely ignore the past, and would also question his changes. Is he just changing outward behaviors, or has he changed the fundamental thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that drive those behaviors?

Unfortunately it's common for men to struggle with apologizing and saying sorry. Many men are too proud. Others feel sorry underneath but struggle with being vulnerable enough to open up as it does not feel "masculine." Other men will overly apologize as a symptom of NGS - I call this the false apology because they tend to feel bad about themselves rather than own their behavior.

I don't think you are wrong in wanting a man who can apologize and own up to his behavior. I also think it is reasonable to question whether your H is capable of the changes you would like to see. Change is hard and grueling.

Regarding your H going to IC, is he sharing what he works on there? My W goes to IC and I have no clue what they work on, but after 6 months I see no changes. My own experience in IC has been that it is a great supplement to personal growth, but the impetus for my changes came from outside IC. I would not hold out hope that IC is necessarily going to initiate change.

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