I am definitely in "fight or flight" mode. "Flight" = I should file for divorce. "Fight" = Squabbling over things like spending money. I should be ignoring any tendency to fight or fly.
What are my short-term goals? Time with my kids, and self-improvement. Money doesn't matter, reconciliation doesn't matter, whether my W is angry or happy or sad or upset doesn't matter.
- I am not going to provide a "safety plan". - I am going to start a simple "parenting plan" with a few bullet points we both agree upon. - If my W balks or refuses to let me see the kids, we will address in the next MC session. - In the next MC session, I will make clear that I do not believe I am unsafe. Period.
I have been allowing my W drive this narrative that I am an unsafe person, and it is making me miserable, scared, and unhappy. I wrote the over-the-top apology letters in April trying to fix my marriage, and they only cemented these thoughts in her mind.
I am letting fear dictate my actions. In this case, fear that if I don't comply I will lose access to my kids. The more I let this fear control me, the worse my situation will get.
Yes, I can improve as a father and a person. I can learn better emotional regulation, who can't? Simultaneously, I am not an unsafe person. There is a boundary there.
- Veer too far in one direction and I am being gaslit. - Veer too far in the other direction and I am not working on myself and learning from experiences.
And I have a backseat driver yanking the steering wheel hard in one direction.
What are my short-term goals? Time with my kids, and self-improvement. Money doesn't matter, reconciliation doesn't matter, whether my W is angry or happy or sad or upset doesn't matter.
This is good Unichen. Now ask yourself how moving out of the house and having an S that puts you in extended limbo helps with this.
Originally Posted by unchien
- I am not going to provide a "safety plan".
Don't you think the S is a safety plan that gives her time to plan her next move?
Originally Posted by LB55
Originally Posted by unchien
It is tricky.
And I have a backseat driver yanking the steering wheel hard in one direction.
Stop the car. open door. Exit car. Problem Solved!
^^^^^This, especially step 1. Stop the car. You are driving all over the place and allowing the backseat driver to steer. Stop the car, think about where you want to go, set boundaries with the backseat driver and then start driving.
Yes it is tough for the backseat driver to drive the car when the car is parked.
Nothing to do with a 'safety plan' but everything to do with controlling what you can control.
Set the boundary that works for you. I can't tell you what that is. You are tired of being out of control and being backseat driven. So stop the car, get out, gather your thoughts, and don't start again until you're ready to have a boundary that doesn't allow backseat driving.
My W demanded a similar safety plan to have me spend unsupervised time with the kids. I never even acknowledged the text message. I didn't say no, I didn't counter offer, I didn't tell her why it was wrong or that i felt controlled. I never replied. She has never asked again. I am demonstrating my plan by my interactions with the kids and am letting them tell her how awesome time is with me.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
LB55 - yeah my W cornered me in MC asking for this safety plan in order to feel okay having me watch the kids overnight. I said okay at the time thinking no big deal. Obviously in hindsight a mistake.
I will not be giving her a safety plan but given I had agreed to give her something I think ignoring it would be passive aggressive. I feel I need a more assertive approach. Perhaps
- state in MC that I will not provide this plan
Or
- offer a more generic parenting plan that we both agree to
I’m feeling extremely idiotic for letting things get to this place
I would tell her straight up in MC that you will not be providing a plan and you will not move out of the house unless she agrees to a 50/50 arrangement. I still don't agree you moving out but if you say so...………...
Ok guys I need help. W had asked for this safety plan before I watch the kids next week, which is also before our next MC appointment: I had initially agreed to give it in MC, then she asked if I would have it before I watched the kids and I had said okay.
It was a huge mistake. No 2x4 or 4x4 necessary.
So now if she asks before I watch the kids what can I say:
W: you will have that safety plan for me before I drop off the kids right?
Options:
- I thought we were going to discuss in MC. - no I will not have it. I don’t agree with the implication that I am unsafe or unfit as a parent. If you want to work together on a parenting plan for both of us I am happy to do that. - others?
And if she goes ballistic:
- I’m sorry you feel that way - ???
And if she says she won’t let me see the kids before MC?
You didn't really think that, so that is a borderline lie. yes you were going to discuss it there, but you also agreed that you would provide something prior to seeing the kids. Don't go with that.
You said you would have a plan. Come in with a plan. No parameters were given to you correct? She is expecting nothing other than a fight out of you. Give her something different. Make it something simple that any parent would do for their kids to keep them safe anyway.
I think this could be an opportunity to build just a bit of trust by doing what you agreed to, even if your hindsight said it was a bad idea.
Ultimately you've got to do what you think is best for U. See what I did there? :-)
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
Brush up on your validation skills, they will be invaluable here.
LB - she asked for 3 things I could do to calm down if I felt overwhelmed.
L told me this is a bad idea. Writing anything down like this is an implicit agreement that I am unsafe in some way. The L suggested I also write or state that the letters were written intending to help make my W feel better given I thought she was leaving. I might leave that one aside for now.
Ok, I am not going to go against your lawyer. Writing stuff down is a poor choice, at least at this juncture.
Does she require it in writing? If not, just tell her you verbally that you plan to breathe deep, listen to what they are saying, and have fun.
I don't know the dynamic, in my situation seeing the actions and getting reports back from the kids that things went well has quelled the concern.
I don't think that coming in hot and threatening to go to a L is going to get you very far. It didn't with my situation. You might have to go that way, I don't know. I never provided a plan to her, just to be clear.
We started small, a few hours on one Saturday, then the whole day, then overnight, etc.
She is scared; rational or not, that is where she is. She needs reassurance and for you to validate that she is scared. Don't tell her she is scared, but that is how she feels right now. She has to protect the kids for whatever reason her crazy brain has thought up.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
LB55 - I like your approach here. Are you willing to share why your W was needing reassurance?
There was a time in my life where I would have just ignored or ghosted this question because I was ashamed.
Basically her stance was that I “vibrated with rage” all the time, her and the kids were scared of me, everyone was always walking on eggshells. I raised my voice when they misbehaved. I spanked them once or twice in 11 years(she spanked them more than I did for perspective). I have a big voice for an average sized guy. Then she BD me, and I started digging into all the accusations of narcissism and personality disorders, and pretty much everyone can identify with some symptoms of mental disorders. So i write this big letter(sound familiar??) that basically said I admit to not being the best father, being gone all the time for the military, checking out mentally when I was home, relaxing with alcohol, stating I might have a personality disorder, and etc. All this crap I didn’t really agree with but I thought opening up to her would help. She turned it into her lawyer and they filed a nuclear war divorce case against me.
I had to under go psychiatric evals, stand in court and not mutter a word in my own defense, and listen while she told the court that I should never see my kids again without supervision for the rest of their life. The judge saw through it but ordered me to get the evals done for psych and alcohol. Neither resulted in anything backing up her statements. So the court covered their butt.
Bottom line we were able to come to some agreements on time with the kids without the court ordering it. I see the kids every other weekend and one weeknight each week. We are able to negotiate that night to fit our schedules. It’s an ok arrangement for now. My work schedule doesn’t support a 50/50 arrangement right now. I will push for that if this divorce continues because it’s important going forward plus the kids asked me for that this past weekend.
So she was super scared because of all this crap her friend is feeding her(miserable D mom). I know this because there was a book at home the last time I was there about how to divorce a narcissist with alcohol problems that had her friends amazon receipt in it for a couple years prior. Her friends exH has come to the house and pulled out trees in anger with his truck and done all kinds of crazy stuff. So she convinced my W that I would be the same way. Then I played right into the hand with that stupid letter I wrote and she got really scared and popped the D with restraints.
It’s funny that I tell the same thing to the guys at work that I confide in and they both tell me I’m the calmest guy they know in Their lives.
In the end; I certainly had/have issues to work on. They aren’t the issues presented, but those are her feelings. I stunk at communication, listening, validating, not solving her problems for her, having boundaries, etc. Basically all the NGS stuff that gets thrown around here. We’ve been on much better terms since I had an hour long validation and listening ‘talk’ in the driveway a month ago or so. She said she liked the ‘listening’ talk so that was affirmation that I am improving my skills. She was definitely surprised by how I handled myself. She expected a fight and got validated to death instead. I could see the curiosity running wild in her mind. She said if she had known what I meant when I said ‘I’m just here to listen’ she would had more to say. She was t ready with all her thoughts together. So I merely said let me know when you are ready to continue. Hasnt happened yet. Not going to push it either. It will happen in time.
We haven’t communicated too much lately, just giving her space to be her. She told me the other day that it’s nice to not be butting heads as much and to really be on the same page with me and I agreed. I really think she is observing the what’s going on with me and starting to question the info she is being fed. I’m not hearing nearly as much about her new friends from my kids anymore. I think she might be distancing from them a bit to evaluate. Hard to say. Her pride may not let her yield, we will see.
26 miles of this marathon left.
I hope that helps give you some perspective on this. Breathe, becalm, listen to her concerns and then validate her feelings. Google non-defensive listening by Gottman. It’s just an internet article but it really helped me understand how to do it.
Last edited by LB55; 07/03/1902:13 AM.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
LB55 - it’s gonna take me awhile to respond to this thoughtfully but I just wanted to say thank you. I know it takes courage to share this with strangers online.
LB55 - it’s gonna take me awhile to respond to this thoughtfully but I just wanted to say thank you. I know it takes courage to share this with strangers online.
You are welcome. I hope it helps you in some way. Maybe someone else too.
One of my personal goals is to be more open and not tell the half truths that nice guys tend to do. So sharing is something that helps me open up and be full honest instead of 85%honest. I do this in my daily life now too; it’s not just an online thing. 3 guys that aren’t family know my whole story. It helps to get it out. So thanks for asking!
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
LB55 - I like your approach here. Are you willing to share why your W was needing reassurance?
There was a time in my life where I would have just ignored or ghosted this question because I was ashamed.
Basically her stance was that I “vibrated with rage” all the time, her and the kids were scared of me, everyone was always walking on eggshells. I raised my voice when they misbehaved. I spanked them once or twice in 11 years(she spanked them more than I did for perspective). I have a big voice for an average sized guy. Then she BD me, and I started digging into all the accusations of narcissism and personality disorders, and pretty much everyone can identify with some symptoms of mental disorders. So i write this big letter(sound familiar??) that basically said I admit to not being the best father, being gone all the time for the military, checking out mentally when I was home, relaxing with alcohol, stating I might have a personality disorder, and etc. All this crap I didn’t really agree with but I thought opening up to her would help. She turned it into her lawyer and they filed a nuclear war divorce case against me.
I had to under go psychiatric evals, stand in court and not mutter a word in my own defense, and listen while she told the court that I should never see my kids again without supervision for the rest of their life. The judge saw through it but ordered me to get the evals done for psych and alcohol. Neither resulted in anything backing up her statements. So the court covered their butt.
Bottom line we were able to come to some agreements on time with the kids without the court ordering it. I see the kids every other weekend and one weeknight each week. We are able to negotiate that night to fit our schedules. It’s an ok arrangement for now. My work schedule doesn’t support a 50/50 arrangement right now. I will push for that if this divorce continues because it’s important going forward plus the kids asked me for that this past weekend.
So she was super scared because of all this crap her friend is feeding her(miserable D mom). I know this because there was a book at home the last time I was there about how to divorce a narcissist with alcohol problems that had her friends amazon receipt in it for a couple years prior. Her friends exH has come to the house and pulled out trees in anger with his truck and done all kinds of crazy stuff. So she convinced my W that I would be the same way. Then I played right into the hand with that stupid letter I wrote and she got really scared and popped the D with restraints.
It’s funny that I tell the same thing to the guys at work that I confide in and they both tell me I’m the calmest guy they know in Their lives.
In the end; I certainly had/have issues to work on. They aren’t the issues presented, but those are her feelings. I stunk at communication, listening, validating, not solving her problems for her, having boundaries, etc. Basically all the NGS stuff that gets thrown around here. We’ve been on much better terms since I had an hour long validation and listening ‘talk’ in the driveway a month ago or so. She said she liked the ‘listening’ talk so that was affirmation that I am improving my skills. She was definitely surprised by how I handled myself. She expected a fight and got validated to death instead. I could see the curiosity running wild in her mind. She said if she had known what I meant when I said ‘I’m just here to listen’ she would had more to say. She was t ready with all her thoughts together. So I merely said let me know when you are ready to continue. Hasnt happened yet. Not going to push it either. It will happen in time.
We haven’t communicated too much lately, just giving her space to be her. She told me the other day that it’s nice to not be butting heads as much and to really be on the same page with me and I agreed. I really think she is observing the what’s going on with me and starting to question the info she is being fed. I’m not hearing nearly as much about her new friends from my kids anymore. I think she might be distancing from them a bit to evaluate. Hard to say. Her pride may not let her yield, we will see.
26 miles of this marathon left.
I hope that helps give you some perspective on this. Breathe, becalm, listen to her concerns and then validate her feelings. Google non-defensive listening by Gottman. It’s just an internet article but it really helped me understand how to do it.
I hear that one LB55. My WAW read Splitting Stop Walking On Eggshells. Divorcing Someone with Narrcisstic Boarderline Personality Disorder. WAW wanted me to put a suicide plan in place. I did the "apology tour" letters back in Jan too. Just cemented her position further. Lesson learned. Great recommendation of Gottman Non-Defensive Listening I will have to check that out. Uni. I like option 2. She is going to have to learn to trust you by demonstrative action in good faith and take your word for it. Don't agree, acknowledge or sign anything which can potentially be used as an admission of guilt in a court of law. No proof, all verbal. K.I.S.S.
Oh hey here is another great psychology dynamic. The Fear/Shame Dynamic. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200904/marriage-problems-50-ways-cause-fear-and-shame%3famp
There was a time in my life where I would have just ignored or ghosted this question because I was ashamed.
Likewise. The first step in healing is getting over toxic shame.
Originally Posted by LB55
Basically her stance was that I “vibrated with rage” all the time, her and the kids were scared of me, everyone was always walking on eggshells. I raised my voice when they misbehaved. I spanked them once or twice in 11 years(she spanked them more than I did for perspective). I have a big voice for an average sized guy. Then she BD me, and I started digging into all the accusations of narcissism and personality disorders, and pretty much everyone can identify with some symptoms of mental disorders. So i write this big letter(sound familiar??) that basically said I admit to not being the best father, being gone all the time for the military, checking out mentally when I was home, relaxing with alcohol, stating I might have a personality disorder, and etc. All this crap I didn’t really agree with but I thought opening up to her would help. She turned it into her lawyer and they filed a nuclear war divorce case against me.
This is so familiar it is unnerving. It would be shorter for me to state the differences: No L involved (yet).
Originally Posted by LB55
I had to under go psychiatric evals, stand in court and not mutter a word in my own defense, and listen while she told the court that I should never see my kids again without supervision for the rest of their life. The judge saw through it but ordered me to get the evals done for psych and alcohol. Neither resulted in anything backing up her statements. So the court covered their butt.
Unbelievable, but also, believable. I'm aware this may be coming for me at some point as well. I'm sorry you had to go through this!
Originally Posted by LB55
Bottom line we were able to come to some agreements on time with the kids without the court ordering it. I see the kids every other weekend and one weeknight each week. We are able to negotiate that night to fit our schedules. It’s an ok arrangement for now. My work schedule doesn’t support a 50/50 arrangement right now. I will push for that if this divorce continues because it’s important going forward plus the kids asked me for that this past weekend.
Sounds similar to my plan if we D... literally.... start off every other weekend (extending by a day, so making it 4 nights), then moving to 50/50.
Originally Posted by LB55
So she was super scared because of all this crap her friend is feeding her(miserable D mom). I know this because there was a book at home the last time I was there about how to divorce a narcissist with alcohol problems that had her friends amazon receipt in it for a couple years prior. Her friends exH has come to the house and pulled out trees in anger with his truck and done all kinds of crazy stuff. So she convinced my W that I would be the same way. Then I played right into the hand with that stupid letter I wrote and she got really scared and popped the D with restraints.
My W's friend is D'd twice no kids. She gave W the book about divorcing a narcissist or borderline. Her husband was financially sly and secretive -- guess what? I got accused of financial control out of the blue when we never before argued about money!
Originally Posted by LB55
It’s funny that I tell the same thing to the guys at work that I confide in and they both tell me I’m the calmest guy they know in Their lives.
I *also* hear this!
Originally Posted by LB55
In the end; I certainly had/have issues to work on. They aren’t the issues presented, but those are her feelings. I stunk at communication, listening, validating, not solving her problems for her, having boundaries, etc. Basically all the NGS stuff that gets thrown around here.
[nodding head]
Originally Posted by LB55
We’ve been on much better terms since I had an hour long validation and listening ‘talk’ in the driveway a month ago or so. She said she liked the ‘listening’ talk so that was affirmation that I am improving my skills. She was definitely surprised by how I handled myself. She expected a fight and got validated to death instead. I could see the curiosity running wild in her mind. She said if she had known what I meant when I said ‘I’m just here to listen’ she would had more to say. She was t ready with all her thoughts together. So I merely said let me know when you are ready to continue. Hasnt happened yet. Not going to push it either. It will happen in time.
Glad to hear that validation is working for you. I am struggling right now as all of our interactions are primarily over text, and exist almost solely of financial or kid matters. Sometimes I validate, a lot of time we are negotiating about something so validation does not really work. I do try to only negotiate on items that are important to me (like time with the kids) for now.
Originally Posted by LB55
I hope that helps give you some perspective on this. Breathe, becalm, listen to her concerns and then validate her feelings. Google non-defensive listening by Gottman. It’s just an internet article but it really helped me understand how to do it.
This gives me excellent perspective. It's easy to fall into the line of thinking that I need to hit EJECT. I feel like that is a NG response (build up fear, then explode). I can't say how helpful it is to hear your story for me, and how much progress you have made. It is inspiring.
Ok guys I need help. W had asked for this safety plan before I watch the kids next week, which is also before our next MC appointment: I had initially agreed to give it in MC, then she asked if I would have it before I watched the kids and I had said okay.
It was a huge mistake. No 2x4 or 4x4 necessary.
So now if she asks before I watch the kids what can I say:
W: you will have that safety plan for me before I drop off the kids right?
Options:
- I thought we were going to discuss in MC. - no I will not have it. I don’t agree with the implication that I am unsafe or unfit as a parent. If you want to work together on a parenting plan for both of us I am happy to do that. - others?
U, I like option 2 for the reasons LB and IH outlined. I would also not shy away from telling her that you discussed it with your lawyer and that you were advised not to provide it to her.
Quote
And if she goes ballistic:
- I’m sorry you feel that way - ???
Validation is OK but that sounds dismissive. Maybe something more like "I know this is very difficult for you."
Quote
And if she says she won’t let me see the kids before MC?
- I think that is unfair and unwarranted. - ???
What do you mean by this? Do you have an agreement that she has 100% custody and that you only get to see the kids with her permission? If so, how in the world did you let that happen? That should not be her decision to make. I just don't understand when I read stuff like this, I don't know how you guys paint yourselves into these corners despite all the contrary advice you get here. Anything less than 50-50 custody should be unacceptable, period. Call your lawyer, explain this conversation that you are about to have with her to him, and ask what legal action can be taken if she refuses to let you see your kids. Then if she hits you with this then calmly explain to her that you've discussed it with your L and if she refuses then you will proceed with XYZ to ensure you get proper time with YOUR children. Look U, it's time to pull on your big boy pants and start playing hardball with her.
If anyone reading this is unclear on child visitation versus DB'ing, we counsel to ALWAYS put your kids first. If you think that allowing your W to dictate all the terms of visitation will somehow earn you points with her you are WRONG! It will likely have the opposite effect, she will see you as a wimpy, pathetic pushover that doesn't care enough about his kids to fight for them. But if you accept no less than 50-50 and you fight for that, she will respect you even if she gripes and complains about it.
LB55 - I like your approach here. Are you willing to share why your W was needing reassurance?
There was a time in my life where I would have just ignored or ghosted this question because I was ashamed.
Basically her stance was that I “vibrated with rage” all the time, her and the kids were scared of me, everyone was always walking on eggshells. I raised my voice when they misbehaved. I spanked them once or twice in 11 years(she spanked them more than I did for perspective). I have a big voice for an average sized guy. Then she BD me, and I started digging into all the accusations of narcissism and personality disorders, and pretty much everyone can identify with some symptoms of mental disorders. So i write this big letter(sound familiar??) that basically said I admit to not being the best father, being gone all the time for the military, checking out mentally when I was home, relaxing with alcohol, stating I might have a personality disorder, and etc. All this crap I didn’t really agree with but I thought opening up to her would help. She turned it into her lawyer and they filed a nuclear war divorce case against me.
I had to under go psychiatric evals, stand in court and not mutter a word in my own defense, and listen while she told the court that I should never see my kids again without supervision for the rest of their life. The judge saw through it but ordered me to get the evals done for psych and alcohol. Neither resulted in anything backing up her statements. So the court covered their butt.
Bottom line we were able to come to some agreements on time with the kids without the court ordering it. I see the kids every other weekend and one weeknight each week. We are able to negotiate that night to fit our schedules. It’s an ok arrangement for now. My work schedule doesn’t support a 50/50 arrangement right now. I will push for that if this divorce continues because it’s important going forward plus the kids asked me for that this past weekend.
So she was super scared because of all this crap her friend is feeding her(miserable D mom). I know this because there was a book at home the last time I was there about how to divorce a narcissist with alcohol problems that had her friends amazon receipt in it for a couple years prior. Her friends exH has come to the house and pulled out trees in anger with his truck and done all kinds of crazy stuff. So she convinced my W that I would be the same way. Then I played right into the hand with that stupid letter I wrote and she got really scared and popped the D with restraints.
It’s funny that I tell the same thing to the guys at work that I confide in and they both tell me I’m the calmest guy they know in Their lives.
In the end; I certainly had/have issues to work on. They aren’t the issues presented, but those are her feelings. I stunk at communication, listening, validating, not solving her problems for her, having boundaries, etc. Basically all the NGS stuff that gets thrown around here. We’ve been on much better terms since I had an hour long validation and listening ‘talk’ in the driveway a month ago or so. She said she liked the ‘listening’ talk so that was affirmation that I am improving my skills. She was definitely surprised by how I handled myself. She expected a fight and got validated to death instead. I could see the curiosity running wild in her mind. She said if she had known what I meant when I said ‘I’m just here to listen’ she would had more to say. She was t ready with all her thoughts together. So I merely said let me know when you are ready to continue. Hasnt happened yet. Not going to push it either. It will happen in time.
We haven’t communicated too much lately, just giving her space to be her. She told me the other day that it’s nice to not be butting heads as much and to really be on the same page with me and I agreed. I really think she is observing the what’s going on with me and starting to question the info she is being fed. I’m not hearing nearly as much about her new friends from my kids anymore. I think she might be distancing from them a bit to evaluate. Hard to say. Her pride may not let her yield, we will see.
26 miles of this marathon left.
I hope that helps give you some perspective on this. Breathe, becalm, listen to her concerns and then validate her feelings. Google non-defensive listening by Gottman. It’s just an internet article but it really helped me understand how to do it.
Just had to say reading this helped me immensely. My W is still in replay with new online friends but I totally understanandthe progression now. Thank you LB.
Do you have an agreement that she has 100% custody and that you only get to see the kids with her permission? If so, how in the world did you let that happen? That should not be her decision to make....
If anyone reading this is unclear on child visitation versus DB'ing, we counsel to ALWAYS put your kids first. If you think that allowing your W to dictate all the terms of visitation will somehow earn you points with her you are WRONG! It will likely have the opposite effect, she will see you as a wimpy, pathetic pushover that doesn't care enough about his kids to fight for them. But if you accept no less than 50-50 and you fight for that, she will respect you even if she gripes and complains about it.
AS - No, we do not have such an agreement.
We've been working out the custody arrangement in our weekly counseling sessions (unfortunately we had to skip the last 2 weeks).
Unfortunately my W is basically saber-rattling that she wants this plan of "3 things I can do when I feel overwhelmed" to trust me to have the kids. She has been very emotional in MC the first few times, and I did a lot of listening and validating, which was a mistake, because I should have stood up for myself. I do not know what she intends to do if I don't provide the plan, or if I instead provide a "here's some good parenting tips for both of us" type of a plan. I know I'm supposed to have the kids next week on specific dates, per our plan. She may rant and rave that I didn't hold up some agreement. I don't know. I have a lawyer on stand-by if I need to assert my rights further.
I also told my W I would be taking some parenting classes in the fall. Somehow she twisted this into "I want to know the dates of those classes" as a requirement as well. I told her those classes were my idea alone, because I am interested in being a better father. She didn't like that either.
I feel like I cave to my W not to earn points, but because I am conflict avoidant and a "people pleaser" (NGS) by nature. This is a problem. This issue, right here, is absolutely one I have to stand up for. If that means like LB55 we go down the legal route, and I undergo psych evals and all that, so be it.
Well, I sent my W the generic parenting guidelines e-mail. Her response I guess was predictable, pointing out that these are "good general parenting principles." I have to paraphrase to avoid Google, but she asked for a revised draft including:
- very specific healthy coping techniques when I am triggered or when things escalate - a plan that should make sure everyone is safe - I should review it with my IC
She kept remarking how I agreed to do this before.
I am really angry right now. There is an implicit threat that she is going to withhold our kids from me.
I don't feel unsafe as a parent. She is going to make a huge ordeal out of this. It's time to stand up. I'm smart enough not to respond tonight, or maybe at all, given how upset I am right now. Maybe I wait for our next MC next week, even though she may try to withhold the kids before then.
Hi Unchien, glad you have the resolve to wait for tomorrow to respond. Her demand sound extreme, more in line with someone who has multiple or documented instances of child abuse.
My partner of two years feels I’m anxious and unpredictable. That’s annoying. I can’t imagine the frustration of someone you spent many years with feeling you’re unsafe around your own kids.
CW - Obviously in her mind it is justified. I have done two things in my life that I regret with my kids. Once I grabbed my son's leg hard in the car when he was hitting his sister. It didn't leave a mark, but it was hard and scared him. The second thing is I grabbed him once hard and shook him - it was not violent shaking like his head snapping around. Inappropriate and wrong, yes.
Both of these were awhile ago - now that we are going through the S my W has amped up her concerns. It's just a toxic situation.
I may wait until MC next week to respond. Even if it means she withholds the kids before then. It's not right, but I don't think standing up for myself and getting into an e-mail, phone, or text exchange with my W at this point outside of MC is going to be helpful. I could pursue the legal route, but again I think waiting until MC is likely the prudent move.
This really really [censored]. It's hard enough going through the S, but honestly DB'ing or working on the M or whatever is the last thing on my mind. I want my time with my kids. This may mean taking legal action soon. I would prefer not.
CW - Obviously in her mind it is justified. I have done two things in my life that I regret with my kids. Once I grabbed my son's leg hard in the car when he was hitting his sister. It didn't leave a mark, but it was hard and scared him. The second thing is I grabbed him once hard and shook him - it was not violent shaking like his head snapping around. Inappropriate and wrong, yes.
Both of these were awhile ago - now that we are going through the S my W has amped up her concerns. It's just a toxic situation.
I may wait until MC next week to respond. Even if it means she withholds the kids before then. It's not right, but I don't think standing up for myself and getting into an e-mail, phone, or text exchange with my W at this point outside of MC is going to be helpful. I could pursue the legal route, but again I think waiting until MC is likely the prudent move.
This really really [censored]. It's hard enough going through the S, but honestly DB'ing or working on the M or whatever is the last thing on my mind. I want my time with my kids. This may mean taking legal action soon. I would prefer not.
Good on you for waiting to respond. This is probably the hardest thing to learn, went through very excruciating 6 or 7 months of knee jerk responding until I learned this.
I know it's tough, but try to work on emotional detachment, U. Just because those incidents were perceived as egregious actions by your W does not make them so. Those were her perceptions (or ARE those perceptions) right now. You know what happened from your perspective, not hers.
The truth is always in the gray area, and if you keep giving her assertations creedence that this was abuse, it will balloon out of control on you. No amount of MC will correct that.
This is why you do move out of the house. Secondly, I would not respond at all and when it comes up in MC I would simply let her know after further thought I don't agree with providing a safe plan or whatever you call it and I will not be moving out of the house unless I have a 50/50 split of custody in writing. I will accept nothing less.
You have to stand up for yourself. You are not fighting for your marriage you are fighting for yourself. You have to shift your focus and the desire to save yourself has to be stronger than the desire to save your marriage.
I don't know who's idea it was to go to MC or why your continuing it but if this is how it is being used to attempt to railroad you into $hit then I would tell your wife that you are done and will no longer be attending.
It's going to get worse before it gets better but you are going to have to put your foot down.
I know it's tough, but try to work on emotional detachment, U. Just because those incidents were perceived as egregious actions by your W does not make them so. Those were her perceptions (or ARE those perceptions) right now. You know what happened from your perspective, not hers.
The truth is always in the gray area, and if you keep giving her assertations creedence that this was abuse, it will balloon out of control on you. No amount of MC will correct that.
The trick is that I have to stop trying to deescalate my Ws emotions. Like I said earlier it’s less about me trying to recon, and more about my conflict avoidance in general.
It already has ballooned out of control and it’s time to stop it even though the blowback will be tough for awhile.
Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
You have to stand up for yourself. You are not fighting for your marriage you are fighting for yourself. You have to shift your focus and the desire to save yourself has to be stronger than the desire to save your marriage.
I don't know who's idea it was to go to MC or why your continuing it but if this is how it is being used to attempt to railroad you into $hit then I would tell your wife that you are done and will no longer be attending.
It's going to get worse before it gets better but you are going to have to put your foot down.
Thank you. These are words that give me strength. You are 100% right that I am now fighting for myself. My W may go absolutely ballistic and that will be a test of my mettle because I have been a pushover for so long. But if there’s ever a time in my life to take my b@lls back now is that time.
You have to know going in that she is going to bully you because she has got away with it for so long. She also knows that it will work because you are desperately clinging to save your marriage. You can't let her manipulate you by using your emotions and love for her against you. You are hanging on to the ledge, holding on for dear life. You have to let go of the ledge and fall.
Trust me...what you do now and agree to now will impact you and your kids for a very long time. I am not telling you to be a jerk, cold, angry, etc. etc. but you have to start saying "NO" and stand up for what you believe in.
I am sorry honey but I will not be providing you a safe plan. Dam you U I am calling CPS. I understand honey if that is what you feel like you need to do. Dam it U I am Divorcing you tomorrow. I understand honey, if that is what you decide to do then I respect your wishes. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
2 years ago a VET told me that I needed to turn into the pain and not turn away from it. It's time to turn into it U.
Can you read my situation and give me some advice?
I really enjoy reading your posts!
Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9
You have to know going in that she is going to bully you because she has got away with it for so long. She also knows that it will work because you are desperately clinging to save your marriage. You can't let her manipulate you by using your emotions and love for her against you. You are hanging on to the ledge, holding on for dear life. You have to let go of the ledge and fall.
Trust me...what you do now and agree to now will impact you and your kids for a very long time. I am not telling you to be a jerk, cold, angry, etc. etc. but you have to start saying "NO" and stand up for what you believe in.
I am sorry honey but I will not be providing you a safe plan. Dam you U I am calling CPS. I understand honey if that is what you feel like you need to do. Dam it U I am Divorcing you tomorrow. I understand honey, if that is what you decide to do then I respect your wishes. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
2 years ago a VET told me that I needed to turn into the pain and not turn away from it. It's time to turn into it U.
My plan is hold off until next MC session. After that if she withholds I think I have no choice but to seek legal help.
If she withholds the kids why not tell her you will be moving back into the house to spend with them? What if she cancels the next MC session? It is very clear that are letting her control the game and just reacting to her moves. I hope I am wrong but I am concerned you may be overlooking many things as alarmist when they are clear concerns for your long term situation
It is done, and I am okay with it. I'm not saying I did the right thing or the wrong thing or disagreeing with anybody here. It certainly wasn't the DB thing to do. But I am at peace.
I made mistakes prior to this decision that forced my hand. I lost my b@lls a long time ago, not in this decision. For one, playing right into her narrative with the apology letters, walking on eggshells, etc. I should have been more insistent that we work on things much earlier. There are other mistakes I made. Ultimately, my W has this narrative in her head that I am emotionally unstable or possibly abusive, and insisting we occupy the same home was basically asking for an escalation, which is what she started to do. Things were about to get legal and I'll leave it at that. It was horrible living in that home the last month.
I know it is controversial that I moved out, and didn't force her to move out. We moved to that home 18 months ago, planned to sell it next year, and it is extremely remote and inconvenient. There is no neighborhood to speak of. I had no desire to live there during a separation.
So... I'd like to refocus on where I am at today. I'm not moving back in.
My kids are currently staying the weekend at my new place. We are having a blast, they love their rooms, they are excited about the neighborhood and local park and everything to offer. I am way more relaxed parenting them without my W's expectations like a black cloud hanging over the proceedings. I can let them make a mess and leave it for later. I got the timeshare arrangement with my W that I asked for. When I don't have the kids I am GAL'ing like a madman. I am actually looking forward to life.
So... where does this leave our MR? And how do I get my b@lls back?
We went to MC this past week. I decided I have nothing to lose anymore, because I don't care anymore about the old MR. So I let loose a bit, things I've never said before. I said I'm tired of being blamed, resented and feared. I said I'm tired of my W communicating by unloading one minute, then going silent the next 3 months and just holding in her resentment. I said I'm tired of my W constantly accusing me of putting no work in. I'm tired of being therapized. I said once we complete working out the kid timeshare and financial agreements for the separation, if we don't start working on the MR, I will no longer go to counseling. Because at that point, we have essentially worked out the framework of a D and all that's left is filing the papers.
She was crying at the end. And I had zero reaction. It's not that I hate her or anything mean. I just realized... I don't want the old MR. If we are ever going to R, I am going to lay out for her that things need to change. I'm not going to do the DB dance anymore of being afraid to say it because it would be pressure. We are way past that point. There is ZERO downside to me being blunt and honest at this point. I'm sitting here already living my future life, and it looks pretty good other than the financial piece. Money is money, I will be fine.
That doesn't mean I don't respect her viewpoint or empathize. And I said that also in MC, just to make clear I wasn't ranting and raving the whole time. I'm happy to work on rebuilding trust, and listen to her viewpoint, but I am not going to do this one-sided anymore.
Maybe I've veered off the DB track too far. It felt good to let her know how I feel, knowing full well I might be driving a nail in the coffin. I can either keep trying to please my W and take steps to change her mindset about me, all the while playing into this narrative that I am an emotionally unstable person and 100% to blame, and end up being miserable anyways. Or... I can let go, move on with my life, be the best dad and dude that I can be, and if she wants to recognize it and fight for me to be in her life, so be it. If not... I'm just not playing the game anymore with her. I guess I could keep playing and "win her back" by showing her how much I've changed, but to be honest, I am not an abuser. I am not this extreme person she paints me out to be. It tears down my self-esteem and happiness to live with that weight of trying to change her opinion. So... I'm done. I've spent months, years, fighting it. I'm going to enjoy the hell out of life, and if she wants to come along with me and fight to have me as her husband, well, that's on her. Otherwise, I'm confident I can strike out on my own and be happy, and likely find a future partner who values me.
Uni since yours and my situation are very similar. Being accused of being emotionally unstable, not trusted, etc. the fact of the matter is as they are not responsible for their feelings just as much as sometimes we lose ours in the midst of all this chaos. When they start to lose trust in us based on whatever rational or irrational reasons, and whether it's hormonal e related or there's actually some legitimacy and agency to it, they want us to be accountable for our feelings or emotions and our actions but they don't want to be accountable for theirs. I've seen this play out in my brother's marriages as well as my own when it comes to separation and divorce. It's funny if they made you feel crazy by gaslighting you and then blame you for your reactions, it would be used against you. But when they do it they're never held liable or accountable, especially in court. I think you did yourself in your kids a favor by moving out and remaining emotionally healthy and happy. them reacting this way to us and painting us out and setting us up to be some type of abuser is almost like them calling the cops on us because they're having an emotional fit, and seek to punish us once their heart turns cold. it's like they're allowed to have emotions but we're not over this whole situation. I almost considered recording every interaction I had with my W, since the communication was so misconstrued, and every time I would revisit a topic weeks later, her end of it would change It's like the mentally ill projecting someone else to be mentally ill because they don't want to take responsibility for their own thoughts and feelings, and challenge whether they are valid and legitimate. MC does nothing more than lend its legitimacy to it and set you up to take the fall. Sometimes it's also a form of control and power. I say let crazy be crazy, and take yourself out of that scenario as soon as possible which I'm glad you did. I'm glad you dropped the rope did what's right for you and your kids, and put your foot down with this nonsense. I hope you also learn how to emotionally regulate yourself whether are you were toxic or not, or whether she became super sensitive and controlling to you. after this learning experience by detaching from it. You also have to keep in mind that the lawyers, mediators, and therapist put them up to it through validation and power of suggestion. It is in their best interest and their job to pit spouses against one another by validating their fears. Like an auto body shop saying I hope no one gets into an accident today or a mortician saying I hope nobody dies today. Spousal fighting divorce discord and division is good for business for them. They are ambulance chasers, with legal know-how at best. You don't necessarily have to be a threat just to be a perceived threat in their mind.
If you're not BSing us and yourself this is a great post. I had no problem with you moving out as long as you truly weren't ding it to please your W. I think it's great you stood up for yourself in MC and told her you're done if you don't start working on the marriage.
DB encourages no relationship talks and pressure because that usually pushes the WW closer to D but if you are prepared to D then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. A true alpha male will state what he wants and is willing to walk away meaning divorce if his partner isn't willing to work towards that goal.
From here on in its all about what is best for U and the kids and no more tolerating her BS. i never believed for a second that you are an abusive person. You're a man who loves his family and along the way lost yourself in the marriage. Your total identity was tied to the marriage and you were holding on to tight which led you to do some desperate things to save it.
I'm just not 100 percent sold yet that you're not BSing yourself but your last post is the best I've seen from anyone in awhile. I know you'll be fine you because you are an information junkie and I can tell you never want to go through this h3ll again.
Don't ever let those b@lls go back into her purse lol.
U - I agree with L. IMO I think you had to say what you said in order to level the playing field and give yourself a fresh start. Now since you stated what you have stated there is no going back or your words where meaningless. If you truly believed what you said then from this point forward you move forward with your b@lls firmly attached. Sometimes it just takes a person standing up one time for them to gain the confidence and fuel the fire!
I remember the first time my XW asked me to watch the kids one night shortly after we separated. I know she asked me because she wanted to go out and party. I told her "no" that I had plans and it was probably the first time in a long time where I said those words. It was hard to do but doing so gave me a confidence that I had not experienced in quite some time. Now when she asks, her tone, attitude, and demeaner when approaching is completely different. I am not saying she wants to reconcile because she doesn't but I do know I have got her respect.
the fact of the matter is as they are not responsible for their feelings just as much as sometimes we lose ours in the midst of all this chaos.
As a recovering NG, I am all-to-easily influenced by the intensity of another person's emotions.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I think you did yourself in your kids a favor by moving out and remaining emotionally healthy and happy.
Precisely.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
MC does nothing more than lend its legitimacy to it and set you up to take the fall. Sometimes it's also a form of control and power. I say let crazy be crazy, and take yourself out of that scenario as soon as possible which I'm glad you did. I'm glad you dropped the rope did what's right for you and your kids, and put your foot down with this nonsense. I hope you also learn how to emotionally regulate yourself whether are you were toxic or not, or whether she became super sensitive and controlling to you. after this learning experience by detaching from it. You also have to keep in mind that the lawyers, mediators, and therapist put them up to it through validation and power of suggestion. It is in their best interest and their job to pit spouses against one another by validating their fears. Like an auto body shop saying I hope no one gets into an accident today or a mortician saying I hope nobody dies today. Spousal fighting divorce discord and division is good for business for them. They are ambulance chasers, with legal know-how at best. You don't necessarily have to be a threat just to be a perceived threat in their mind.
IHC - I feel like sometimes I'm with you halfway through your posts, and then I lose you. I'm not sure why, just an observation, and please don't take it as anything other than that. I guess I feel like I have allowed other people to control my life decisions, but I stop at the point where I think that they are vindictive or sowing discord - I think the problem lies within myself, for allowing it to happen. Lack of boundaries. NGS.
For anybody going into MC: Speak up for yourself. Don't be afraid to speak the honest truth, worrying about the potential impact to your MR. Because if you don't, your spouse likely will speak their truth, and then you might feel railroaded, like the MC is siding against you, etc. I don't believe MC's are invested in sowing discord, but when one partner digs in their heels (like my W) it is hard for the other person to feel anything positive is happening.
It boils down to how you answer this question: Is it our MC's job to question the tales of emotional abuse? Or is it my job to speak up?
If you think it is the MC's job, as I (erroneously) thought for awhile - you are screwed.
I decided to speak up last session. Knowing full well it may have totally finished off any thoughts my W may have had for R.
From here on in its all about what is best for U and the kids and no more tolerating her BS. i never believed for a second that you are an abusive person. You're a man who loves his family and along the way lost yourself in the marriage. Your total identity was tied to the marriage and you were holding on to tight which led you to do some desperate things to save it.
I'm just not 100 percent sold yet that you're not BSing yourself but your last post is the best I've seen from anyone in awhile. I know you'll be fine you because you are an information junkie and I can tell you never want to go through this h3ll again.
Don't ever let those b@lls go back into her purse lol.
LH19 - you pull no punches and I like that about you.
I'm getting a good sneak peek at divorced life. I have my own place and a timeshare agreement with the kids. My W is going back to work which is good news no matter how you slice it. There are some financial loose ends to work out - I'm not 100% pleased with it, but it's just not a key concern of mine right now. I have been exercising, going out some nights with friends, and in general enjoying my time although there are struggles running a house on one's own.
I'm looking around thinking... yep, this is not the life I really wanted, but it's not all that bad (other than the financial hammer). It's a lot better than what I had the last year! I'm getting back to being more productive at work, enjoying my time much more. It feels good.
I am, however, completely emotionally exhausted from dealing with my W's resentment and fear and blame. It's debilitating. I have nothing to lose going to MC and speaking my mind at this point. She pulled all the emotional levers she had already - the only lever left was withholding the kids, and I surmounted that hurdle. The money lever doesn't work - I know if we D that I can manage my own money just fine. It will not be the lifestyle we had been living, but that's fine by me.
I will acknowledge that a HUGE problem with separation is that I can see it makes working on the MR almost impossible. Every little interaction, miscommunication, etc. is a potential flashpoint. This is why I said in MC that I will not continue to go if we aren't working on the MR. Because just "being apart for awhile" doesn't solve anything. In which case, I'd rather start moving on with my life sooner. If my W's idea was that UC would go away for 6 months and work on himself and prove he has changed, well, I don't want to be with her anymore.
U - I agree with L. IMO I think you had to say what you said in order to level the playing field and give yourself a fresh start. Now since you stated what you have stated there is no going back or your words where meaningless. If you truly believed what you said then from this point forward you move forward with your b@lls firmly attached. Sometimes it just takes a person standing up one time for them to gain the confidence and fuel the fire!
I remember the first time my XW asked me to watch the kids one night shortly after we separated. I know she asked me because she wanted to go out and party. I told her "no" that I had plans and it was probably the first time in a long time where I said those words. It was hard to do but doing so gave me a confidence that I had not experienced in quite some time. Now when she asks, her tone, attitude, and demeaner when approaching is completely different. I am not saying she wants to reconcile because she doesn't but I do know I have got her respect.
Anyway...good for you, be strong!
TBS - Thanks. There is no going back. The old UC would be worried that standing up for myself would look like me being emotionally unstable. The new UC doesn't care what it looks like.
I just got plain fed up. With everything. The timeshare stuff with the kids was the final straw. I won't go into details. It is resolved now, but things have forever changed. For awhile I was willing to accept that staying in the MR may involve accepting a less happy relationship for the sake of maintaining family stability. But things went waaaayyyy too far.
If I can't assert my needs now, and talk about my own resentments, then what is the point of MC, or even of trying to find a satisfying relationship? I can just keep acting like an undeserving H trying to win back his hard-hearted W, for potentially years, and just absolutely neuter myself? Or... I can stand up for myself, start moving on, and find a partner who values me for who I am, flaws and all. My W is welcome to apply for the position. The clock is ticking if she's going to start trying and stop blaming, and her application will be processed in the order it is received.
Maybe I should clarify... I’m not interested in a relationship at this time. But if and when I am it will not take the form of my prior MR. So for the moment I’m going to focus on myself and my kids. That also means I won’t be working on the prior MR.
Sounds like you are in a good place. The pain is very real early on and it's not easy, in fact the hardest thing I have ever went through by far. That said when you get on the other side, process your emotions, grow and become detached you will realize that you deserve so much more than what your wife was giving.
Boy, this is mentally exhausting. I have never been into drama. My life has been very drama free, but now I am wallowing in drama. I know that my kids need me to fight for our family and my marriage. I ask God for the strength to keep fighting every day.
UC - that's the best post from you I've read so far. Good on you for standing up for yourself in MC. Good on you for moving out on your own terms. I am really happy for you. The new place is a fresh start and it will do wonders for your mental health. Keep at it! You deserve much more and keep working on your personal growth and the world is fully open to you. I really enjoy reading posts when the LBS gets their b@lls back - all genders included in this. But it's especially awesome to see when the LBS is a man because overcoming NGS is a bi$ch, but once you do, there ain't no going back. Well done!
I really appreciate the supportive posts the last couple days from everybody. I do feel more positive about things even in the midst of this emotional chaos.
I'm spending a lot more effort thinking about what I'm going to do in my free time then worrying about my sitch. Went to the store to pick up some materials for an old hobby of mine I'm restarting. I'm excited.
In parallel I won't lie I do think about what to do next in my sitch. I have this incredibly strong urge to keep speaking my mind. I'm still trying to sort out where this is coming from, and make sure it is not holding onto the rope.
Here is my thought process, and maybe you all can tell me what you think:
It seems incredibly unproductive to drift along in a trial separation. If the goal of a separation is to decide whether to divorce or attempt R, then I would be acting incredibly stubborn if I did not spell out what I would like to see in a R. I think I would also be acting incredibly stubborn if I did not address at least some of the past events and my versions of them.
Is asserting my needs and my truth just a version of hanging onto the rope? Or is it part of redefining who I am, that I will not be a silent, passive person, whether or not my W decides to D or R?
I'm feeling strongly like it is me standing up for myself. And note I don't really care about the timing or whether my W has had enough time or space yet. Just last week she was about to force a legal court battle to occur over letting the kids stay at my house. I don't care so much about her needs right now. Perhaps there is some underlying anger driving me to be reactive here? I don't know... honestly I'm just kind of pondering this stuff in the background while I go about my day to day. I'm so relieved emotionally after the escalation of the last several weeks to just be able to have semi-normal days.
In the meantime, joining a Meetup group for an activity tomorrow night.
Sound like you reached the stage that I did. The zero f*cks given stage lol. Good for you. Worry about you and your happiness. Be a good father and enjoy life. There are plenty of women who would fight to stay in your life. My new GF belives that actions are whats important. She shows me im important to her and constantly shows me that she wants to be in my life. Its a truly amazing feeling having someone go all in on gaining your trust and respect. My exww can kiss my @$$ with her blaming. Lol
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Funny Uni. I just had one of those moments last night and this morning with W about blame shaming, gas lighting, never being satisfied, justifying her actions, accepting no responsibility and blaming me for not meeting her needs and demands, not kowtowing to her hissy fits, and calmly but deliberately just blew it all up last night and detonated everything, hit the eject button, blew the bridge and said F@$! It! We are divorcing and I am somewhat relieved.
Never better LH19 never better ;-) Done worrying about the sich, and moving forward. Ready to get this on and get this done. Very relieved. Dont care anymore if I lose her. It's not what I wanted but it's better than being a mental Basket Case for 12 months. Onward and upward towards my new life and my focus on me now and my son
The last few days I feel this intense urge to sprint as fast as possible away from my W. The intensity of this feeling scares me. Grass is greener?
Maybe the vets can help me understand.
I went through such an intense period of soul-searching during the 3 months of limbo that I feel like a changed person. I started off feeling broken, abusive, damaged goods, at fault for everything, desperate to save it all. Now that we are separated, I have tempered the soul-searching quite a bit. I am no longer desperately scrambling. I have grown so much personally, and I understand my issues at such a deeper level than ever before. I am much more in touch with my emotions, and in doing so, I know myself better, and I am able to stand my ground and set boundaries with confidence. I still have a lot of work to do, no doubt. But where I used to feel so unsure, I now feel confident and much more centered.
It all boils down to being in touch with my emotions and not suppressing them. Suppressing emotions allows other people to control and manipulate and walk all over you. Suppressing emotions is what NG's do. I used to struggle to be assertive because I never understood when it was appropriate. I had such self-doubt. When you are in touch with your emotions, that gives you the confidence to be assertive (in a respectful way). It is the biggest lesson I have learned. And it took experiencing daily panic attacks where I thought I was going to have a heart-attack for 3 weeks in April to realize "I will not die if I just sit with this for awhile, I don't need to resolve this emotion right now." Again... I had to go through hell just to get where I am at today, a still fragile but much more healthy person.
I look back at everything that happened with my W. I contributed so much to the failure with my issues and my inability to address them in a healthy way. But my W also contributed. And I'm not sure she can change in a meaningful way. The 3 months of limbo were the culmination of 2-3 years of gradual deterioration, all of which she blames on me. The last year plus I have felt zero emotional support from her. It took the nightmarish hell of 3 months of limbo for me to change. What will be the impetus for her to change? I am so doubtful.
It feels like I've hit a fork in the road. I'm impatient sitting here waiting at the fork.
What I didn't really say explicitly in the post is: I've felt pretty emotionally lonely for the last 2-3 years, and in particular the last year. Now I'm living on my own, a lot of time by myself with no kids. Time alone is great, I'm doing social stuff, hobbies, exercise, etc. But suddenly having this time and space reinforces how awful I felt beforehand.
The scary part of the intensity is I recognize behind all the new-found strength there is fragility - it would be really easy at this time to fall into (or seek) an emotional connection with someone else, when what I really need is to focus 100% on myself and my kids. It would be really easy to think "life is too short" and start moving on a little too quickly, if that makes sense.
Sure it makes sense but I would think part of working on yourself would be to practice self control.
The thing is I don’t think you’re ready to throw in the towel and I believe your W is going to ride out this gravy train and keep you in limbo for a really long time.
The recent issue with timeshare with the kids really broke things for me. I'm still sorting out my feelings, anger is clouding everything. I would say I'm ready to throw in the towel but I know that is anger speaking and I need a little time for things to settle so I don't react to raw emotion.
The conclusion I reached last week is the same one I have today: I need to be much more vocal in MC, immediately, about my needs and what I would like to see change. Otherwise I am an idle bystander letting my W drive everything, which will not be productive towards meeting my needs.
I'm assuming I'll just know when I'm ready to throw in the towel.
Hmm?.. Unichen counciling has to be able to work for you too I would take it. What are you're needs and do you think MC and W can and ate willing to meet them in MC session? How is this benefiting you. Something I became self aware of over the last few days. Every time I have a moment of weakness to want to return to the M. I tell myself now to push through it. Realize the past and the person from it is not the present. I tell myself to push through it. Focus on what I want for myself in my life outside of R and carry forward. In that moment if weakness is strength if you are willing to push through it, and take it. Regardless if who divorces who in my sich. I know I will be ok.
IHC - My doubts are not about speaking up, they are about the timing of speaking up.
The NG part of me says: "You're just angry from last week and the timeshare situation, your W needs time to adjust, give her more time and space, she is still very stressed out and worried about money and now is not the time."
And then I think... "DUDE... UC... screw the timetable. It is time to assert how you feel. There are 3 available outcomes, and only 2 are acceptable. It's time to put the 3rd available outcome to rest."
Today's GAL: - 10 minutes of meditation in the morning - Hit the gym after work - Played basketball for an hour after the gym - Met an ex-colleague for dinner
What I didn't really say explicitly in the post is: I've felt pretty emotionally lonely for the last 2-3 years, and in particular the last year. Now I'm living on my own, a lot of time by myself with no kids. Time alone is great, I'm doing social stuff, hobbies, exercise, etc. But suddenly having this time and space reinforces how awful I felt beforehand.
The scary part of the intensity is I recognize behind all the new-found strength there is fragility - it would be really easy at this time to fall into (or seek) an emotional connection with someone else, when what I really need is to focus 100% on myself and my kids. It would be really easy to think "life is too short" and start moving on a little too quickly, if that makes sense.
Hey U (btw what kind of dog do you have? Always wondered...)
I would slowwwww down. Seriously.
This is really traumatic [censored] we are all dealing with. I am in month 11 of limbo, month 4 of IHS. I know for an absolute fact it is going to take me not months, but years to get though or over or past this -whatever happens.
This is why I was telling you before your S to take your time and think. Assess. Figure out what you want. That future R stuff is for the future.
We all need to be really careful not to drag our current mess into any new mess. Take time to grieve. Be sad. Be angry. Be frustrated. Be whatever.
That's all I got today. I am worn out and emotionally incapable of arguing the case for my soft 2x4 but there you have it.
Hey IW - I actually don’t have a dog. My user name is a reference to a song from a band I like, which itself references an old film by an artist my W likes. A surrealist. I thought it perfectly encapsulates the surreal nature of the situation in general. Twilight zone.
I feel for you in the IHS. I did 3 months of that and it was torture trying to GAL in that environment. For better or worse, the physical S has lifted my spirits. Maybe I wasn’t strong enough during the IHS.
It has also given me a lot of perspective. I’m not really intending to throw myself out there. A lot of the intense emotions have subsided. Sadness and worry have been replaced primarily by anger. Not a seething anger. I would call it a healthy anger. I spend a lot of time reflecting on it.
I think about how disconnected I have felt from my W. I think about how the friends I’ve reached out to during limbo have provided more support than my W has in years. I think about defining what I want in relationships, whether with my W or somebody else. I’m thinking less about my W specifically and more what I would want in a relationship in general. I think this focus is because I intend to be more vocal in MC about what I would need in our future MR if we are to somehow work things out.
It’s a weird feeling. I feel like my W and I just went through a breakup. But we still have kids and a house and assets and we are married. It’s like a giant mess is sitting there to be cleaned up. Either we clean it up by starting a new relationship, or we take care of business and go our separate ways. I know either way the cleanup process will bring with it a whole new set of emotional triggers and grieving.
You are right to call me out. I need time to keep working on myself. Part of this process is thinking about relationships and how I can make sure I don’t repeat past mistakes.
I was in limbo for 8 months, my XW moved out 3 weeks after BD. It really [censored] early on (not gonna lie) and there is no way around it. GAL helps but it doesn't eliminate all the pain. I would strongly encourage you to not think about reconciliation, you need to focus your attention on doing things that make you feel good, and start to rebuild your confidence. Take stock of yourself personally from how you dress, how you look, the job you have, etc. If you are fat lose weight, hit the gym. If you dress like a slob then up your wardrobe.
Pay no attention to your W. You wouldn't touch a hot stove would you?
Hey IW - I actually don’t have a dog. My user name is a reference to a song from a band I like, which itself references an old film by an artist my W likes. A surrealist. I thought it perfectly encapsulates the surreal nature of the situation in general. Twilight zone.
I feel for you in the IHS. I did 3 months of that and it was torture trying to GAL in that environment. For better or worse, the physical S has lifted my spirits. Maybe I wasn’t strong enough during the IHS.
It has also given me a lot of perspective. I’m not really intending to throw myself out there. A lot of the intense emotions have subsided. Sadness and worry have been replaced primarily by anger. Not a seething anger. I would call it a healthy anger. I spend a lot of time reflecting on it.
I think about how disconnected I have felt from my W. I think about how the friends I’ve reached out to during limbo have provided more support than my W has in years. I think about defining what I want in relationships, whether with my W or somebody else. I’m thinking less about my W specifically and more what I would want in a relationship in general. I think this focus is because I intend to be more vocal in MC about what I would need in our future MR if we are to somehow work things out.
It’s a weird feeling. I feel like my W and I just went through a breakup. But we still have kids and a house and assets and we are married. It’s like a giant mess is sitting there to be cleaned up. Either we clean it up by starting a new relationship, or we take care of business and go our separate ways. I know either way the cleanup process will bring with it a whole new set of emotional triggers and grieving.
You are right to call me out. I need time to keep working on myself. Part of this process is thinking about relationships and how I can make sure I don’t repeat past mistakes.
Uni the part about thinking about relationships constantly is the same things I have been doing from my almost 10 years of M and all my other relationships. It pains me because of the mistakes that I have made over and over and over. But this is different I'm learning from a lot of mistakes I made that wasn't even aware I was making throughout the 9 years. It's so painful at times to keep going through these mistakes over and over again in your head because you want to learn from them but then as you think about them its so emotionally exhausting and draining.
IHC - I hear you about the problem of obsessing over relationships.
I don't feel like I'm in an obsessive cycle. I am hitting a point where I need to really consider what I would need in a R with my W. Not that I am hoping for R, but if I don't at least have clear in my head what I would need, then I am susceptible to continuing in this aimless limbo for a long time.
My question Uni is after all that trust has been broken. The D filing, the accusations, intentional or not, the gaslighting, the blame shaming, the division of everything, the ignoring, the mediation, the coldness, all of it. Why would any LBH or LBW want to ever trust that person again? I mean its not to say that can't be earned back with time patience and commitment, but? I still feel we would have to have rocks in our heads to even want to give it another shot? Is love really that blind? Not to make the LBH sound like a victim, there are two parties with unhealthy dynamics at fault.
My question Uni is after all that trust has been broken. The D filing, the accusations, intentional or not, the gaslighting, the blame shaming, the division of everything, the ignoring, the mediation, the coldness, all of it. Why would any LBH or LBW want to ever trust that person again? I mean its not to say that can't be earned back with time patience and commitment, but? I still feel we would have to have rocks in our heads to even want to give it another shot? Is love really that blind? Not to make the LBH sound like a victim, there are two parties with unhealthy dynamics at fault.
These are all good questions to ponder. People attracted to the DB forums are a self-selecting group, willing to stick it out.
Gaslighting, blame, resentment, coldness - if I thought my W was just intentionally a complete and utter monster, of course I would be an idiot to stick around. I choose to think she has her own emotional baggage, and a lot of these behaviors are a consequence. Just like my own issues caused me to seek reassurance excessively, pester her for physical affection, act passive-aggressively, and avoid conflict.
I changed my excessive reassurance-seeking. I stopped pestering her for affection. It helped nothing. Changing behavior is a good start, but not sufficient. True change comes from changing the underlying thoughts, beliefs and attitudes that drive behavior.
In my W's case, resentment, coldness, inability to resolve conflict effectively, poor communication - what are her issues driving this behavior? Do I believe she is capable of change? Does she even recognize the problematic behavior in the first place? Would I be remiss if I did not at least point these things out to her?
I have my ideas of why she has her issues. I won't even bother to list them out. It has nothing to do with DB'ing. She will either figure it out or not. In the same way, it is not her responsibility to help me figure out my own issues.
Can she regain my trust? I have no idea. I really don't. I could file for D today in anger, and maybe in 10 years she would regain my trust. Or I could sit patiently and wait, and in 2 months she could rebuild trust. I have no idea. I can't lay out the steps to regain trust, but it is a steep mountain for certain.
I am a strange creature IHC. I believe in the inherent goodness of people. I believe there is a lot less pure evil and badness in this world than most people would believe. Yes, people can be vindictive, mean, hurtful, nasty, spiteful, selfish - I just think people are running on auto-pilot most of the time and using the same old coping strategies they have always used. Do I want to be around it? No. Do I believe people can change? Absolutely.... but it's not easy. It took the worst situation of my life to motivate me to make positive changes after all.
I understand you made a decision to move on, and I respect that. I have 3 kids and several years of (mostly) good memories with this woman. If I am going to move on I want to be absolutely certain it is the best decision for me and the kids.
Argh I was doing pretty well deflecting text skirmishes, but took the bait this morning.
When my W first asked for S last month, she asked to take D5 to a party on one of the days I have the kids. I (stupidly) said okay, trying to keep the peace. That party was today. I agreed to it, and have decided I will follow through on any agreements I make, and I will also only make agreements in the future that align with my best interests. After the timeshare showdown, I will not be agreeing to anything without careful consideration. I am being kind of nitpicky on dates and times and logistics, but I feel like that is exactly what to be specific about right now.
This party did really annoy me partly because of missing time with D5, but also because it created this opportunity for the kids to feel left out, confused, etc. Just a really poor idea.
I was texting W this morning about the times for drop-off and pick-up. She mentioned that D3 was upset about not going to the party. I ignored that bait. She mentioned she would tell D5 there was a "strict time limit" at the party. I bit on that bait. I was offended she was going to tell D5 there was a "strict time limit" -- the implication being that they could have stayed but it's daddy's day. I said something to the effect of hoping D5 did not feel like she had to choose between party and dad, or that the fun had to stop to go to dad's house. Oh boy, that unleashed my W. She was upset that I would think she would do that, she said "I know you feel like you are unheard" (?) and on and on. I just said, "Let's not get into a text exchange, we both know we end up misunderstanding and mind reading each other all the time over text. See you at xx pm." The "strict time limit" wording really annoyed me. Maybe my W will subtly play games with our kids like this, I can't really control it.
It was a minor flare-up but a reminder I need to do better. I can handle our conflict in person in MC, or when we speak on the phone once a week. I need to ignore ALL text message bait.
One other mistake... W keeps going in for a hug whenever we do pick-ups and drop-offs. I've kind of done the side-hug turn-away thing, not sure really what to do. Now, the humorous side of me thinks "This is like getting to 2nd base!" But I do feel like it's really strange she does this. Not a big deal, it's pretty much the same affection we had since last October, it's the same type of hug you would give a friend.... but not an X.
I had an awesome GAL week: - Daily meditation, first time I have had a multi-day streak going - Joined the gym, lifted weights twice - Played pickup basketball twice - Started a new hobby project in the garage - Met an ex-colleague for dinner on Wednesday
I hear you on the texting skirmishes. Especially since it seems to be the only way W is willing to communicate.
What I've done if it's not an urgent exchange is stop replying immediately. This changes the dynamic quite a bit. I wait and think about what I am going to say. How to say it - rewrite it in my head before typing it out, then proofread what I write before sending it.
Usually if there is a text that is not a question I will keep the response short and concise but civil. Things are not as they were before, in her head the R is over - so why would the "immediate response" text remain?
You can't control what kind of parent your W will be - it [censored] that she said that about strict time limit - but I do recall those exact words being flung around during my parents' D when I was 11 or 12 and beyond.
I don't have kids, but maybe some of the vets with kids can chime in here and offer words of encouragement or advice.
I wouldn't worry too much about one exchange. I slipped up too the other night, but there were a lot of improvements in how I was able to validate. I think you're getting there too - it's all a learning process.
IW - We think alike on how to handle the texts. If it's not an urgent question, I vary the responses anywhere from "in a while" to "never" (but always civil).
I would say today's session went so-so, except W had her wedding band off. In its place, on the LH ring finger, 3 little bands for each of our 3 kids (she got them when each was born). Hard to ignore.
I know DB advice would be to ignore it.
My W's storyline is she needs time and space, she will continue going to IC to "heal", and she will go back to work. I'm not sure what else she is trying to achieve in separation. The S feels aimless and I said that in MC. Supposedly next week we will work on some communication techniques, and the counselor hinted at this being an opportunity to let go of past resentments. Maybe he sees that I need an opportunity to speak some of my truth. I'm not sure it's going to matter, but I'll give it a go. Something to consider the next week in between GAL'ing.
We talked a bit in MC about handling the kids. Now that I have had them two weekends at my place, things do seem to be falling into place and we have a good system going. It really has been pretty straightforward. That is all great - but not for a marriage.
My opinion is my W is showing no true commitment to working on the MR. Sure, better communication and being more civil with each other is all good stuff, but that is not going to fix what broke. Working on the MR, to me, is working on what broke.
Part of my mind, the part I have worked to shut off, worries she is just "handling" me to have a nice smooth divorce - and I feel like telling her "Go ahead with it! All this extra time and space is doing no good." Honestly, she can go ahead and file now, or in a week, or 2 months - I'm going to handle it the same regardless. Also keep in mind in our state D would likely take 18 months or so, so there is no mad rush here.
Anyways... I asked her about the band. I haven't heard back yet. Maybe she will ignore, or lie, or defend, or counter-attack... I'm okay with any outcome. Maybe she will say she wants to date other people. I don't know. I don't think this is a "bite your tongue" item for me in my sitch at this moment. She may feel like she is not emotionally connected to me, or whatever, but that ring is a commitment and a symbol.
So now that the process of separating has almost completed, I am back in limbo. A different limbo - much happier and healthier, but less time (although higher quality time) with kids, and waaaaay worse financially. I learned a lot from the first limbo. Second limbo is different also because I don't feel like I need the GIFT of TIME as much as the first time around. I'm feeling good. I'm not breaking down emotionally. I'm working out, being productive at work, enjoying my time with the kids, meditating, really understanding my emotions at a deeper level.
There is a fork in the road. Divorce, or work on the MR. Anything else is just standing in place, going nowhere. I'm excited to pursue the next phase of my life, and I'm excited to take either path. I just can't stand still, I already did enough of that the first go-round.
Well she responded that she sometimes wears the kid rings and sometimes those plus the wedding band. I guess it's optional now?
Guess it is...shrugs shoulders...moving forward with life again...
My W always told me that if we needed a rings to remind us that we were married we were screwing it up. This might have been BS for years. I always wore mine, I didn't really think twice of it when she said it. Maybe she has been cheating for years...who knows. Doesn't make much difference to me. Once or 100 times is cheating just the same. Does it bother me?? Some days I guess, but if that is the life she wants then the desserts will be just for her. I just have to trust that God will help me through it and grant me something better on the other end.
Last edited by LB55; 07/22/1910:16 PM.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
Internally I had a complete meltdown. I wrote a bunch of F yous in a journal and threw the book on the floor. I was alone and I went outside and yelled at the top of my lungs till I went hoarse.
SIL talked about it the next day- saying OMG did you see she didnt have her ring on? Her ring???!!!
LB55 - I guess I'm easily triggered by a single thought right now:
"This trial separation has no clearly stated goals, and therefore, will end in a divorce."
The no-ring signal is another sign to me that my W does not intend (at least today) to work on the MR. I asked why? and she answered evasively. I should let it lie. I'm tempted to clarify that I just wanted to understand if there was a message she was trying to convey, but it will only continue to make me look controlling to her.
So bad idea to ask. But it definitely is another emotional data-point that points me in a certain directio
Why are you letting her actions dictate what you think/want/do?
The ring is a symbol. That is it. What it stands for has already been lost. Let it go.
I have already made a pact with myself that if we ever decide to reconcile that I want to move forward with new symbols of our marriage, don't have to cost a ton, but new nonetheless.
I wore mine for a while after BD, probably a month or two. I decided I was only wearing it to show her that I was still interested. I can stand for my M without a ring on. You may be different than me. Mine is in my truck's ashtray with a bunch of quarters and dimes. Its just a chunk of platinum to me anymore.
If she put hers back on tomorrow id notice but wouldn't mean a thing without more action than that.
Quote
"This trial separation has no clearly stated goals, and therefore, will end in a divorce."
You're looking for some sort of controllable outcome based on logical inputs, U. A guaranteed outcome, if you will.
You can't go the other way and make it work either: "This trial separation has goals 1, 2, and 3. Therefore it will end in life happily ever after. The outcome can't be guaranteed. You can however work on yourself...but you already know this.
Go make a list of 50 goals for the trial separation. I guarantee they will not cause nor prevent a divorce. There is your guaranteed outcome.
Last edited by LB55; 07/22/1911:07 PM.
Me40; W38; S12; D9 BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18 D Final 7/2020 Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
Why are you letting her actions dictate what you think/want/do?
The ring is a symbol. That is it. What it stands for has already been lost. Let it go.
I have already made a pact with myself that if we ever decide to reconcile that I want to move forward with new symbols of our marriage, don't have to cost a ton, but new nonetheless.
I wore mine for a while after BD, probably a month or two. I decided I was only wearing it to show her that I was still interested. I can stand for my M without a ring on. You may be different than me. Mine is in my truck's ashtray with a bunch of quarters and dimes. Its just a chunk of platinum to me anymore.
If she put hers back on tomorrow id notice but wouldn't mean a thing without more action than that.
Quote
"This trial separation has no clearly stated goals, and therefore, will end in a divorce."
You're looking for some sort of controllable outcome based on logical inputs, U. A guaranteed outcome, if you will.
You can't go the other way and make it work either: "This trial separation has goals 1, 2, and 3. Therefore it will end in life happily ever after. The outcome can't be guaranteed. You can however work on yourself...but you already know this.
Go make a list of 50 goals for the trial separation. I guarantee they will not cause nor prevent a divorce. There is your guaranteed outcome.
Yep. So much this.
There are no guarantees in life.
I woke up and decided every day for 20 yrs to be with W. One day she decided not to. She may say it was not being "in love" or whatever. But it's a decision.
Why are you letting her actions dictate what you think/want/do?
Because I am still not where I need to be.
Most of my head has things clear now. But one area I need to work on is I am still muddied up thinking about MC, and what is the point of going if we are not working on the MR, and why would my W choose not to wear her band to MC of all places? Why are we even going? I know it's a symbol but.... arghh.
And I also get that I shouldn't overreact in the other direction and just give up on the MR. I should act without any expectation of the MR.
One area I've been really good at is exercise. Our MC asked what am I doing to work on myself. I said I've been working out, lifting weights, playing basketball. I don't care one way or another how my W took this.
Originally Posted by LB55
Originally Posted by unchien
"This trial separation has no clearly stated goals, and therefore, will end in a divorce."
You're looking for some sort of controllable outcome based on logical inputs, U. A guaranteed outcome, if you will.
You can't go the other way and make it work either: "This trial separation has goals 1, 2, and 3. Therefore it will end in life happily ever after. The outcome can't be guaranteed. You can however work on yourself...but you already know this.
Go make a list of 50 goals for the trial separation. I guarantee they will not cause nor prevent a divorce. There is your guaranteed outcome.
You are right I fall back into old patterns of looking for SMART goals. I'm an engineer, it's what we do =)
What I really meant to imply was... this trial separation has no direction. I'm not comfortable with that. I don't even know what "We" are supposed to be doing other than acting like we are divorced (or in the process of divorce) except we have merged finances. That's pretty much it. I'm just living by myself enjoying my kid time and, when I'm alone, GAL'ing like crazy, and I'm loving it. I really am. I have my sad moments but I am waaaaayyyy happier than I was at any point in the prior 6 months.
So I'm sitting here thinking... man, this life, it's not so bad. Financially it will be difficult. I won't see my kids as much, but when I do, I'll be fully invested as a single parent. Not the same relationship drama. I'm just sitting here waiting. Working on myself, jumping into hobbies, working out, etc. Looking around wondering... what is our MR even about anymore? My W takes off her ring, acts like talking about pick-up and drop-off times is "working on the MR", wanted me to write a safety plan 2 weeks ago just to have our kids stay overnight at my place.
I'm not freaked out about the ring because of our reconciliation odds. I just feel like we are living a lie right now. Our MR was a lie for the last year, and this "trial separation" is really a divorce wrapped in a lie. That's how it feels.
Then the old UC NGS parasite, the one I thought I locked away deep in my subconscious, unshackles itself and breaks out and starts adding in the doubt: Maybe your W really does want to work on things, but she is scared, and untrusting, and needs some time. Maybe you need to let her live with her doubt, leave the wedding ring alone.... then I snap to it and lock that sucker back in the cage where he belongs. She can do all that on her own time, and what I do isn't going to change it one iota.
I woke up and decided every day for 20 yrs to be with W. One day she decided not to. She may say it was not being "in love" or whatever. But it's a decision.
Live for you, U.
Thanks IW.
I was already getting frustrated with MC and the lack of focus on our relationship as a couple. I can tell my W does not want to go there for now.
When my W showed up without her band on, it makes me lean away from the MR harder. You and LB55 are spelling it out clearly for me -- it should not affect the way I lean one way or the other.
Shoot I gotta run... starting my new "skinny dude needing to add 15 lbs of muscle" weight lifting program today...
I asked my W 5 months ago what she planned to do with her wedding and engagement ring. She wanted to save it for our son. I couldn't help but think to myself. What bad juju. She is cold as ice tonight and focused like a laser. 1st mediation consultation tonight. Sometimes even when I am at my calmer and smile and play in front of S1 and leave her to her constant texting and devices. I can hear it in her voice when she is anxious and pissed off for no reason. Especially when I am calm. In the past she has taken me being calm as snide. The calmer moments like tonight I am when she is upset, the more it pisses her off. Good. She chose this route, now deal with it. Still praying she will have a change of heart someday. I doubt it. This is going down in flames. She can take the lead, and I will counter every step of the way.
No. I was just calm after the mediation phone session. She may have been upset for several reasons. Period. Maybe it was because I asked for 3 years of tax returns. Maybe it was because I decided to do my son's birthday party separate from hers 2 in 2 months from now Who knows? I just put all my attention on my son. You could tell she was deliberately trying not to make eye contact with me after all that, and constantly messaging on her phone.
Man the ring. Let me tell you, I was watching that so obsessively. Some days on, other off, once she threw it off in front of me after an argument. Now i don't care. She wears other rings on her ring finger now. I see this when she goes to work. Sometimes its off at home, sometimes not. I left mine on from BD to a couple of weeks ago. Now, like you, it's off. Because whatever happens, a new sitch needs a new symbol. That's exactly my POV. And I don't hide from the fact I'm seperated at work. My family has NFI, her family suspects. The way things are going, it'll probably be out shortly. Her call, 100%.
In any event, seems your gal went through the same emotions as mine. The ring, it seems, is a proxy.
This was very predictable and we warned you what was going on and sometimes you seemed liked you understood and then at times you didn't understand. There is a reason why you don't advise mc unless it's to work on the marriage. Waste of money and a WW checklist. Every action has a purpose. She intentionally didn't wear the ring make no mistake about it.
Unfortunately you went from one limbo to another. If you can keep your expectations low I think you're heading in the right direction.
There is a reason why you don't advise mc unless it's to work on the marriage.
At the very outset of my sit in Sept I suggested MC. It was shot down hard. I never did it again bc she said flat out she didnt want to go.
Your W has shown you by her actions (ring off) how she is feeling right now. There is no "trial" separation, it's just a separation. Doesnt matter if its "in house" like mine or "trial" like yours.
The goal of a separation is exactly that. To be separate. To live alone bc you dont want to be with your partner anymore.
Apologies if it's a bit brutal. I dont mean to offend you, U but it's probably the best way to look at it right now.
Cant tell you what to do, but if it were me I would inform the MC at the next appointment that "I see no point in going to marriage counseling if we are not going to work on the marriage, however I will continue to go to IC".
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Unfortunately you went from one limbo to another. If you can keep your expectations low I think you're heading in the right direction.
After 11 months of this, i have come to realize that as long as you are standing for your M, you will be in limbo.
U, This was very predictable and we warned you what was going on and sometimes you seemed liked you understood and then at times you didn't understand. There is a reason why you don't advise mc unless it's to work on the marriage. Waste of money and a WW checklist. Every action has a purpose. She intentionally didn't wear the ring make no mistake about it.
LH19 - After a night of sleep I realize a ring is a symbol, she did that intentionally, okay, I don't need to get all worked up about it. It changes nothing. It highlights that I am still too focused on trying to deduce where my W is at.
MC has helped with the S. My W has toned down the text mind-reading in particular. There is a lot less drama. I am pleased with that result.
Long-term - I just have to gauge week-by-week what I am getting out of it, rather than trying to set goals. I just cannot see the bigger picture right now.
For instance, next week, we are going to try an exercise where one person expresses resentment about something and the other practices listening skills. Now... I know what my W resents me for. I've heard it all in various forms of sh*t tsunamis (my favorite term for this). If she speaks, it will be more of the same. When it's my turn to speak... I have no clue what I'll say, but I will go for it absolutely. To get it off my chest, to heal, to let go, to see how it feels to speak about my hurt feelings instead of bottle them up. It may also signal to my W what she would need to change if we are to reconcile. I need time to sort out and make sure I am not doing this with reconciliation in mind. I need to be doing it for me.
But... the above exercise also makes no sense to me. Two people who are splitting up don't need to go through this. It's not necessary for effective co-parenting. It's all very confusing. Maybe the counselor is throwing me a bone by doing this exercise, sensing I may want to get some things off my chest. I don't know.
I think he sees that W and I are at an emotional impasse and we are a hopeless case without some assistance getting over the past. I remain hesitant to express my own resentments because I see no point. I don't think she is receptive at all. Maybe I shouldn't care. What do I have to lose?
I get it, I need to stop worrying about "are we working on the MR, or not?"
Originally Posted by LH19
Unfortunately you went from one limbo to another. If you can keep your expectations low I think you're heading in the right direction.
LH19 - My expectations are a divorce in my future. I don't know how, by whom, or when.
I feel like I'm stuck inside a mountain train tunnel. There is light at both ends. On one end, I know exactly how far away the light is - about 2 years walk up hill. I have to be careful not to get railroaded - the trains in this tunnel for some reason don't have any warning lights. As I get closer to the light I'll get some glimpses of the views. Once I reach the end and get out in the open air....aaahhhhhhh. On the other end, I just can't gauge the distance. It could be 1 month of easy downhill walking. It could be 10 years of clambering uphill. And I can't tell if the light is from another beautiful mountaintop or fire...
I assess this situation like the engineer that I am and I think -- one way is 2 years. The other way is an average of 5 years, with a high variance. I am not a gambler. I really badly want to start walking, standing in this stuffy dark tunnel is not where I want to be.
There is a reason why you don't advise mc unless it's to work on the marriage.
At the very outset of my sit in Sept I suggested MC. It was shot down hard. I never did it again bc she said flat out she didnt want to go.
Your W has shown you by her actions (ring off) how she is feeling right now. There is no "trial" separation, it's just a separation. Doesnt matter if its "in house" like mine or "trial" like yours.
The goal of a separation is exactly that. To be separate. To live alone bc you dont want to be with your partner anymore.
Apologies if it's a bit brutal. I dont mean to offend you, U but it's probably the best way to look at it right now.
Cant tell you what to do, but if it were me I would inform the MC at the next appointment that "I see no point in going to marriage counseling if we are not going to work on the marriage, however I will continue to go to IC".
Quote
Unfortunately you went from one limbo to another. If you can keep your expectations low I think you're heading in the right direction.
After 11 months of this, i have come to realize that as long as you are standing for your M, you will be in limbo.
IW - Thank you for your honesty, I've said it many times - the posts I like here are the honest ones. I don't come for validation or soft advice. Please don't ever hold back what you really think.
You are 100% right - this is just a separation, no trial.
MC is a bit of a sham. We went last year, then stopped. I asked to go a few times since January. Finally we go, but it is to this guy who specializes in s mediation. He also does MC, but the writing is on the wall.
The MC does help with the kid stuff. That's about all it has helped with honestly. But that alone is worth it. I don't want to play out drama in front of my kids. I thought previously it was just my W being dramatic, but I've learned that sometimes I trigger her and I've learned how to communicate differently and avoid triggering her. That's all fine. If it is good for my kids, great. I'm okay approaching MC as "learning how to operate better within a relationship" rather than "how to fix things with my W in particular." --- for awhile.
I could go on and on with reflections about limbo. Your comment about standing and limbo made me think...
Limbo, divorced, separated, reconciled, married -- these are all States of the MR. True detachment involves no longer self-identifying with the State of your MR. That includes limbo.
We react to limbo with aversion. We push it away. We say "I hate limbo, but I am standing for my M so I guess I am stuck here." Aversion itself is a signal that we are not detached.
Maybe there is a different way to view limbo. The universe has a way of creating situations that force you to tackle your shortcomings.
I don't know, I'm rambling incoherently. I have the advantage of physical separation now which helps me have some space away from the daily tension. Limbo feels like a form of attachment. If I remove my W from my thoughts, there is no limbo, there is just me, living my life the best I can, working on myself. Spend a day completely forgetting about my MR and limbo dissipates into thin air. Those are the best days.
UC, you have this frustrating habit of BSing yourself sometimes. When you went to the first MC session your goal was to get the BD over with and be out of limbo.Then the goal changed to the MC is helping with how we negotiate S terms, kids issues, communication with wife etc but none of the goals included your wife working on the MC. However, subconsciously it seems that this has always been one of your goals. I know you have made a lot of progress on detaching and GAL but this is something you should get clarity on. Is one of the goals of your MC saving your MR? If not, why does it matter whether your wife is wearing her ring or not?
If I had to guess I think you are getting to the point where you know you MR is dead but need MC to check the box that you did everything to save it for the sake of your kids.
UC, you have this frustrating habit of BSing yourself sometimes. When you went to the first MC session your goal was to get the BD over with and be out of limbo.Then the goal changed to the MC is helping with how we negotiate S terms, kids issues, communication with wife etc but none of the goals included your wife working on the MC. However, subconsciously it seems that this has always been one of your goals. I know you have made a lot of progress on detaching and GAL but this is something you should get clarity on. Is one of the goals of your MC saving your MR? If not, why does it matter whether your wife is wearing her ring or not?
If I had to guess I think you are getting to the point where you know you MR is dead but need MC to check the box that you did everything to save it for the sake of your kids.
MLCxH - My primary goal was always to go to MC to work on the MR. Not save the MR (any MR with my W would have to be MR 2.0 where we both change).
However, my W showed clear signs of wanting a D. I expected going to MC was going to be the setting for the BD, and I decided this was okay, because she could barely talk to me 1:1 about anything of importance for the prior 6 months. It was important to me to get that clarity.
Then MC morphed into talking about the kids, S terms, communication, etc. D or S this would have happened.I have seen that MC benefits my kids. But still... not working on the MR.
Once that MC benefit dries up, we are left with --- what are we doing here? If it's not working on the MR, there is no point in going. And then we are left with an aimless S. I firmly believe S is doomed to D if there are not attempts to work on things.
The ring was a test of my detachment, and clearly I needed to realign my perception with reality. I'm too worked up trying to answer the "Are we working on the MR?" question, and I saw the ring as a symbol of commitment. The fact is... I don't even know what my level of commitment is right now, and a ring is a hunk of metal with some stones in it. Rather than trying to scratch the anxiety itch, I need to just let it be for awhile.
And yes, I am aware that I am still BS'ing myself if I think I'm 100% accepting of D today.
One of the reasons I post on this message board is to try to communicate to the LBS is that they have more power then they think in these circumstances and that they don’t have to relinquish it all to the WW. If not working on the marriage in MC is a deal breaker for you then stop it. Take some control back. Dictate to her that she’s not calling all the shots, because so far she’s controlled everything.
Once that MC benefit dries up, we are left with --- what are we doing here there is no point in continuing MC anymore. Current MR is dead If it's not working on the MR, there is no point in going
.
Fixed that for you if your goals in MC are really what you stated
Originally Posted by LH19
U, If not working on the marriage in MC is a deal breaker for you then stop it. Take some control back. Dictate to her that she’s not calling all the shots, because so far she’s controlled everything.
^^^^This. You have come a long way in getting control of your emotions but I agree with LH that she is still in control of the situation here
I'm too worked up trying to answer the "Are we working on the MR?" question
Hey U - not to beat up on you here but the two of you are not working on the MR. Only one of you is, only one of you wants to. And that person is Unchien.
I know you want to work on your MR. We all do. Otherwise what the hell are we all doing here on this site? But the conventional ways of doing that are not working.
I get it, I really do. Your W and mine are similar in not wanting to talk. So we figure that if we go somewhere that is "safe" to talk we can figure some way out of this.
But we can't. W has to want to work on it. We cannot control that.
I ask you to revisit why you are continuing to go to MC. Make sure that your motivations are strictly for your kids and mediation-like agreements and that is all. And not that it's trying to hang on to any silver of a hope to work on the MR.
I know - I was doing the same thing with my house and trying to keep it, BSing myself in the process and justifying not wanting to cooperate. But it was really me hanging onto hope.
I've since let it go.
You dont have to do what I do. I dont know your real life sit, i just know what you post here. So i get why you might be skeptical. And that's ok too - take everything here with a grain of salt - i do that too. But all I'm saying is just think about it. Look inside and see what all your reasons are for going to MC - list them out if you like.
One of the reasons I post on this message board is to try to communicate to the LBS is that they have more power then they think in these circumstances and that they don’t have to relinquish it all to the WW. If not working on the marriage in MC is a deal breaker for you then stop it. Take some control back. Dictate to her that she’s not calling all the shots, because so far she’s controlled everything.
LH, while I believe us LBSs can control whether we go to counseling, how do we know that we don't need patience to just go through counseling because our S wants that? I don't believe my MC is helping, but she seems to still want to go. I got us to stop going for two months, but she wants to start again. I don't, but at the same time I don't want her to have an excuse to give up completely.
Last edited by Cadet; 07/24/1912:19 PM. Reason: Start a new thread message
There're many reasons why. It's wasting your time. It's wasting your money. It's providing them with ammo so when you sit your children down and tell them you are divorcing they can tell them I am sorry but you tried everything.
Telling them you will go to mc but only if you are working on the marriage communicates you are a person of value, and your time and money is to valuable to be wasted.
One of the biggest misconceptions around here is that when the bomb gets dropped that the WW is confused. It typically takes years for the WW to drop the bomb and when then finally do they are no longer working on the M and are executing their exit plan that puts them best light with the kids and the family.
Family and kids later in life: did you try mc? WW: yes we did we tried everything to make it work.
Last edited by Cadet; 07/24/1906:32 PM. Reason: Link
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
