Now she's messaging me trying to remind me of when we were talking about moving to the mountains a couple years ago. I just said "well, that'll never happen". Not in a snarky way, but more in a "I really wanted that, but you ruined my life" sort of way, because realistically I won't be able to move away from this area for another 13 years most likely. So...I dunno. I'm just a bit lost right now (I'm not telling her that though) because there's a huge part of me that does still want her to come back. But there's another part that would never, never let anyone put S and I through that again...including W. It's just not worth the pain. But I guess we'll just see what happens.
You, more than any other posters here, would need to put some huge roadblocks in front of her to coming back, to see how committed to REALLY coming back she was. I know this is a DBing forum, and I know you have to deal with her for the next couple of decades in coparenting, but Mac I think you are going to look back in 10 years and be so glad that you went through with the D.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I hope you won't mind if I copy & paste a post I wrote on taking the WW back too easily. I'm not saying you should never take her back, but please consider the things I say in the following post.
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Quote: Yes, I would LOVE to see Sandi expound upon a "Letting Them Back Too Easy?" theme, from her unique FWW perspective.
We have to consider the makeup of the wayward mindset. In my simple breakdown, I would say there are 3 main veins that run to the wayward heart/mind. Those 3 are Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion. If you have ever experienced dealing with these feelings yourself, or dealt with another person who had them......you know it takes a lot of work to resolve those feelings completely.
Even if she is willing and trying to come to terms with it, the emotion and flashbacks that caused the resentment, still want to creep around inside her head. And there are trigger points that can set it into a binge effect. If she has allowed herself to be controlled by her emotions (which, of course, waywards do) then it will prove to be very challenging for her and the H, just in different ways. However, I am a firm believer that it can be accomplished, if the WW wants to let go of it badly enough. Sadly, many don't want to turn lose of anger or whatever seems to control them at the moment, as crazy as that sounds. It requires a lot of self discipline, and which we know WW's have very little. Intellectually, they know they should do everything in their power to get rid of it. But what will it take to give them that "want to" get rid of it? That is the question that leads back to the H not being able to force her what to feel. However, he can certainly influence!
I wish I knew how to explain the dynamics in the female - male relationship. Then perhaps I could better explain why her respect for the H is vitally important, and how that respect, or disrespect, affects their entire MR. It definitely affects her feelings for him (and I will get back to this in a second). If a man allows his WW back into the MR........knowing he does not have her respect, he will never be appreciated, much less admired. Unless she simply fakes it, she can't admire him. Those dynamics would also better explain why she has the rebellious attitude with him, as though she were a teenager and he was the parent. It is a very complex relationship and it leaves the H completely baffled with why she would say and do some of the things she does in her wayward state.
LBH's should not let her back too easily, with no questions, no discussions or decisions. He had better have a plan and have an agreement from her to cooperate 100% with his plan before he ever says they can reconcile......then hold her to it. Rug sweeping is no solution, period. It makes matters worse, so that route needs to be taken off the table immediately. Neither can the H "nice" her out of her waywardness. This is where I think some of the LBW's here on the board may have a problem with some of the tough love advice. B/c they would love it if their bad H was nice, especially if he had been abusive. However, these ladies are not wayward, and that's the main difference. I am telling you it does not work with a wayward woman. It stems from those three areas......resentment, disrespect, and rebellion.
There are some things that time eventually heals, but I personally do not believe time, alone, can heal matters of this nature. Time, coupled with good counseling can help with a big part. However, before a woman can begin to resolve these problems, she has to be willing to work at leaning how to let go of the past and stop blaming her H for everything. in her frame of mind, I believe she has to have some type of guidance from an unbiased source........and preferably, professional. I don't mean attending MC with her H, either. She first needs help just for herself. If she has a spiritual leader, I would recommend spiritual counseling, b/c these are matters of the heart. Once she begins to deal honestly with her feelings......and is seeking to learn new skills, the couple stands such a better chance at reconciling. And then the couple should attend a good MC or a highly recommended M program, support groups or something that will help guide them through Piecing. Just leaving a couple to figure it out on their own is not the healthiest of choices. The main ingredient there is willingness from both sides. (Side note: BluWave and I have a thread about rules for piecing, if you care to check it out.........Definition and Guidelines for Piecing http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573#Post2832573 ).
I believe a woman cannot hold on to these three issues toward her H and/or the M, and have a warm, loving, sexual desire for him. These strong, negative feelings will surface almost daily in some sort of fashion. Some women may be HD enough they will want the act of sex, but they use the man as if he were some type of object in order for her to receive pleasure. Some women may play along and just tolerate the sex, but she doesn't feel the attraction and desire for him. And that's not to mention those who use sex as a way to manipulate the H. She may go through the act of ML, but that's all it will be. I can't give any scientific proof, IMHO, that it is impossible for a woman to have that kind of inner contempt for her H.......and be able to feel attraction/desire for him. I believe that is the true source for a lot of SSM.
She has to find appropriate means to help her resolve this mindset in order to have peace within herself. By that, I mean her meeting with her new friends at the bar is not the guidance she should receive to resolve her bad feelings. Even if she were to move on to another relationship, this mindset toward her H, consequently affects her ability to have complete contentment in her life, IMO. She may try to ignore it, deny it, and act otherwise......but it still lives in her heart and it is a dark, cold leach that [censored] away at the core of her spirit. So, just imagine how it would be for the LBH to allow his WW to return to the MR too easily, instead of her doing the necessary work, first.
When or if a LBH lets his WW back into the MR too easily, it is comparable to dismissing someone who is pregnant. She is pregnant and must go through a laboring process. (The pregnancy/labor metaphor is applicable to many things. I used it in the last thread illustrating Piecing the M back.) In the pregnancy stages, the H notices when things become uncomfortable for her, she is grouchy, complains, nothing suits her, etc. Her hormones are wacky, so she does some weird and out of character stuff. The H usually does whatever he can to make things easier for her. In time, she starts to experience contractions, and things go into high gear. She may, or may not, turn to a professional for help. The labor can be long and agonizing, and most H's wish there was just something he could do to take her pain away. His role during that time should be to show her he is emotionally strong, stable, and confident. She doesn't need to see him crying or begging her for anything. He doesn't show her how afraid he really feels. He doesn't start acting like a crazy person and screaming along with her, or reacting to her contractions. He doesn't even get upset when she screams, "This is all your fault. I will never let you touch me again".
This may not have been the greatest analogy off the top of my head, but I hope some of you will see that the main message here is to let her go through the labor process. The H is making a bad mistake to let her back into the MR without her doing some work on herself. Why would a man want a woman to be with him and have those terrible feelings toward him? There are no short-cuts and those unresolved feelings will surface!
P.S. There are some WW's who go through an emotional heart operation, in order to heal her own issues she had in the MR. These are the women who are working to atone for the destruction they caused, and hopefully, establish trust and respect again. Some WW's do turn around. Done correctly, and rebuilding the MR & family will require hard work from her. The results are so worth it. ((hugs))
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I think the labor analogy is a great one. Because a woman has to birth the baby to get relief. If she doesn't and the baby decides to not come on the due date then the stress, emotions and pain continues. So a woman has to birth the pangs of the resentment, rebelliousness, and disrespect in order to move on. The other part that works well is a man/husband can't have the baby for his woman/wife, she has to do it all on her own, the physical part. So a LBH has has to treat his WW the same way, he has to let her birth the pangs caused by him, while he shows he's a strong, confident, and understanding man. If she says she don't want him to touch her ever again, he understands that, that's her feelings at the moment (while she's in labor), those feelings, can change once all the labor is through(once she births the pain of RRD(resentment, rebelliousness, and disrespect)) she will want him around again.
IMO, I think it works great. You probably can get better details, I never gave birth before, LOL
Joe
M:37 W:37 T:11 M:10 S17, S13, S10, S4 BD:06/28/17 OM confirmed 07/20/17 Recon the M 10/29/17 Working hard:2gether
Onward and forward
This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
((hugs))