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I feel like she will try to limit my timeshare with the kids beyond what is reasonable and my right. It leads me to thinking I should file for D.


Here is the way this plays out:

You file for D. You submit your personal statements and desires.

She then gets a rebuttal statement to refute your statements and state her own case.(this is where it will turn into a nasty child abuse discussion and she will likely file a restraining order request and request supervised visitation at your expense while she has full custody. All the feelings she has will become facts on the court documents. My W wrote that I abused EVERY kid at little league, I had to get statements from league administrators and parents clearly stating they had never seen any abusive behaviors from me in the 5 years ive been involved.) You likely wont see her rebuttal until 24 hours prior to court. This is your time to develop your rebuttal for court the next day. You will be super angry and unable to do this effectively.

The judge reviews them.

You then get a 5 minute rebuttal to her statement in court.

Then the judge will make a decision that covers their butt based on what they read. If there is even a shadow of a sliver of doubt in their mind that it might be possible that you might harm the child at some point in time, they will rule against you. (I.E. You will wind up being interviewed by CPS, going to a lot of counseling, and having supervised visitation for a while that you pay big $$ for. This is regardless of what actually happened or your feelings on the matter. The court will decide to protect the child and until you can provide proof from those 'professionals' that you are mentally stable and not a child abuser you will be presumed as such. You pocketbook will be $5-10K lighter and nothing will really be proven or disproven.)

Your state may be slightly different. Im not a lawyer; this was my experience, even though I didn't file first. They will take any hint of abuse and run with it.

All of the above may happen anyway. Hard to say.

We have all done things in the disciplining of our children that are not the way the other person would have done it. I don't agree that what you did was abuse either. However the word abuse is a nuclear weapon in todays society.

Keep DBing and keep your nose clean. Don't give in to doing the dirty work for her. That is my $0.02.


Me40; W38; S12; D9
BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18
D Final 7/2020
Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
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Ack! You are seriously walking straight into every trap in the book, and this is the biggest one of all!

You need to stop entertaining this notion that you need to prove anything at all to your WAW, and do NOT allow this conversation to occur at MC or anywhere. In your next MC appointment, you need to say you have never abused your children, you always protect them, end of story, and never go to MC again.

First of all, you cannot prove a negative, so arguing or discussing or proving yourself to her will not achieve anything ever. She will not ever feel good about giving up her kids, but she is making this decision herself so its her problem, not yours. Second, the more you allow this conversation to take place the more she has set a narrative that you are an abuser, she tried to deal with this in counselling for X number of months, but you cant be trusted with the kids. Then your MC will TESTIFY that you guys discussed your child abuse in counselling for X number of sessions. And don't think this is alarmist, this is standard operating procedure in divorce these days. Because of what you said in MC, she already has enough to get you supervised visitation in most jurisdictions.

If I was her lawyer and you continue what you are doing, you are looking at supervised visitation at best, 1,000 foot RO from your wife and house, max child support and alimony forever, and you would be paying my fees.

What you need to do is simple:
1. Don't move out without at least 40% custody agreement signed and in place (her signing a custody agreement is your best defense against false abuse charges, which ARE coming).
2. Don't move out without a financial agreement in place, who pays what, with an end-date of 6 months where you move back in or she leaves the house.
3. Never, ever admit any guilt, or even allow discussion regarding abuse of any kind.
4. Never say, text or email anything to anyone that you don't want read out loud, out of context in court.
5. And stop going to MC if this ever comes up again.

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Alison -

My W is not thinking about whether to allow me contact. We do have some timeshare arrangements, but she is holding back on the time. The MC pointed this out to her, that the percentage arrangement was out of line with what a normal arrangement would be even if she was a FT SAHM (she is planning to return to work next month -- we'll see).

I trust our MC to guide us. He has told my W she can ask for me to show her I am trustworthy and safe, but she cannot hold out forever, and she is going to need to let go, and on a short-term plan.

My W has also asked for this safety plan which I feel is fraught with peril. I refuse to write, for instance, "If I feel out of control I will call the police on myself," so if she is looking for that, she will not get it.

The biggest issue I have is that I want to take my kids on vacation before they start school mid-August. My W has been extremely cold on this idea. Next MC session (2 weeks from now unfortunately) we are going to have to iron this out. I know my W and I cannot iron out these details on our own, she is very emotionally reactive to innocent discussions at the moment.

This situation is very toxic for me. I question whether standing for my MR is worth it. I don't think it is healthy for me to be with someone who thinks these things of me -- either they are true (in which case our M should dissolve anyhow), or they are distorted (in which case I should leave).

I am trying to be patient in the short-term, and focus just on the next few weeks. I don't think she is trying to "take the kids away." I think she wants to do what is right, but her reality is distorted and that makes this situation very dangerous for me.

The abuse talk does incredible damage to my heart. It hurts to feel accused of things that feel unfair. It hurts to feel gaslighted. It hurts to question my own reality. It hurts to doubt my own truth and my own feelings.

It starts to feel more and more like I may be in a toxic MR, one that is not worth standing for.

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To react to some of the other posts...

Yes, this is a perilous situation. I have consulted L's, I have talked about it to 2 IC's, my W and I have been to 2 separate MC's now where this stuff has been discussed. NOTHING has come of it.

It is very inflammatory talk. Trust me, I feel the swell of strong emotions that drives me towards filing for D, protecting my rights, TODAY, so my kids aren't STOLEN for me. I feel my W is talking very dangerously and a majority of H's in my shoes would have filed by now.

The reality is, my kids are not going to be taken away. I'm not going to get supervised visitation. That is the fear talking. As men, we are all terrified of this scenario. But as our MC told me privately, "F**k your fear. Fear doesn't exist". It is my favorite quote right now. Fear drove me to make poor decisions in the past. Fear of losing my MR, fear of financial ruin, fear of losing my parents. All led me to make bad choices and say or do regrettable things which contributed to the deterioration of my MR.

I just don't feel a need to make a knee-jerk reaction to the fear right now. I've investigated what could happen, I am confident in myself and my parenting abilities.

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Originally Posted by unchien


Yes, this is a perilous situation. I have consulted L's, I have talked about it to 2 IC's, my W and I have been to 2 separate MC's now where this stuff has been discussed. NOTHING has come of it.
.

Here is something for you to ponder. If you were your W's L would you bring this up as an issue now or wait for a more opportune time such as a hearing?

I also don't understand what your goal is with the S? Are you doing the S just to wait for your W to lose patience and file or are you doing the S hoping you can R in six months? What stops you from staying in the house or just filing and getting temporary orders before moving out?

Last edited by MLCxH; 06/29/19 10:05 PM.
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Forget the legal implications for a second....

I’m increasingly having doubts whether I should stand for a M where my W accuses me of abusive behavior. It’s perilous to even talk in MC when she may accuse me of something at anytime. And no I’m not worried because I know I’ve done nothing illegal or reportable, it’s just mentally draining and toxic to have to withstand it. In the last MC session she was stating untrue things and exaggerating facts about an argument we had last August.

In addition, she said she hasn’t felt romantic towards me in a year. She blames me for not being able to go back to work. She mindreads me and doesn’t seek to understand. I find her to be controlling. It’s so easy to start looking at that greener grass. I’m in love with a beautiful woman and memories of the past. Is that enough to keep going?

I’m just wondering what stops people here from filing during the dark days. I don’t even know what I’m fighting for sometimes, when I can tell part of GAL may well be moving on... when everything other than the financial piece of my life seems like it would improve. Yes even my relationship with my kids I think would improve at this point...

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Originally Posted by unchien

I don’t even know what I’m fighting for sometimes, when I can tell part of GAL may well be moving on... when everything other than the financial piece of my life seems like it would improve. Yes even my relationship with my kids I think would improve at this point...


This is exactly why I asked you the question below.

Originally Posted by MLCxH

I also don't understand what your goal is with the S? Are you doing the S just to wait for your W to lose patience and file or are you doing the S hoping you can R in six months? What stops you from staying in the house or just filing and getting temporary orders before moving out?



You need to have clarity on what you want to achieve or I fear you are just going to go from one kind of limbo to another

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Originally Posted by unchien
I’m in love with a beautiful woman and memories of the past. Is that enough to keep going?


It might carry you for a while but it's not sustainable, because at some point you'll realize she's not that person anymore. Then you've got to decide if you want to try and build a new R with this "new" version of her.

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I’m just wondering what stops people here from filing during the dark days.


Because it doesn't change anything. All of the emotional turmoil you're going through does not end with S or D. It keeps going and going... until it doesn't anymore. You have to heal, and that takes time. Once you heal and can view your situation from a detached point-of-view, THEN you are ready to decide if you want to pursue D.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by unchien
I’m in love with a beautiful woman and memories of the past. Is that enough to keep going?


It might carry you for a while but it's not sustainable, because at some point you'll realize she's not that person anymore. Then you've got to decide if you want to try and build a new R with this "new" version of her.

True, this is my real mindset. What I should have said is:

"I'm in love with a woman from the past. I would be interested in building a new MR with a new version of this woman, but she seems stuck in the past. And every time I look over my shoulder to see if she's changing, she's not, and I also am reminded how I shouldn't be looking over my should so often."

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by unchien
I’m just wondering what stops people here from filing during the dark days.


Because it doesn't change anything. All of the emotional turmoil you're going through does not end with S or D. It keeps going and going... until it doesn't anymore. You have to heal, and that takes time. Once you heal and can view your situation from a detached point-of-view, THEN you are ready to decide if you want to pursue D.


I hope if I reach this point of healing and detachment, I will know it. Sometimes I think I am there, sometimes I think I am in a toxic relationship and not seeing reality for what it is. Sometimes I think I just need to get through the next couple months and see if things settle out first.

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You know I went through a lot of this same train of thought. Why would I want to stay with her? Am I just in love with the thought of what used to be?

Its really hard to say. I have lots of reasons to want to stay, but since she is a different person, I have to get to know that person before I can choose that. I may not have to opportunity if she doesn't want to be with me at some point in the future.

I can still see potential; all is not lost. I may never realize that potential with her, but I am in a holding pattern with her right now. I think she is waiting to see if my attitude change is a real thing or if I am just faking it for a bit. Truth be told I am faking it some days. But I am faking it less than I am making it now. Its taken a while. She has stopped pushing for D in the time being.

I see these changes within myself, and I think that if we both were willing to put in this kind of revolutionary effort of change and self improvement instead of all the effort we are putting into blowing everything up and leaving a giant wake of destruction behind that we would have a better M than 99% of all folks out there. Which would be pretty dam good!

You will swing back the other way U. Don't make any rash decisions, keep DBing, and let some more time pass.


Me40; W38; S12; D9
BD11/19/2018 D filed 12/20/18
D Final 7/2020
Being the best example I know how for my kids to see.
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