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#2851590 06/03/19 08:43 PM
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New thread...

Expecting BD soon #1

Expecting BD soon #2

Expecting BD soon #3

Well looks like we'll hit MC at some point next week and I might get some answers. I'm looking forward to it.

If W is not communicating out of fear, then pushing out MC is not going to help. Even if that communication is that she wants D.

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I agree. Better to know what your up against.

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I had an Aha! insight:

My W is afraid of me.

That is driving this whole sitch towards D. It has driven her out of loving me, and has driven her towards feeling that she needs safety and security by leaving me.

I understand how I have contributed to her fears. And I also understand how some of the fears which I think are unfounded are... well... I cannot argue against them. For instance, I'm *not* financially controlling, but I can see how once an environment of fear is established that it is easy for other issues to arise as well.

Primary instigators of Fear:
- I pressured her for intimacy and affection.
- I freaked out when I did not have reassurance of our relationship - letters, pulling over the car
- I did not support her career restarting as much as I could have -> fear of loss of control of her life

She is afraid to even talk to me 1:1 now about anything serious.

And frankly, once that fear is established, even if I could calm her fears, she would still have that betrayal of trust in her heart.

How does one heal the fear and betrayal of trust?

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Time and space and you becoming a man only a fool would leave.

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Ok so this is stream of consciousness while I'm thinking out loud...

Agreed on those points. But I think there is more involved. You need opportunities to repair.

MC is one opportunity.

Last night I felt relieved that we would go to MC soon, because I had hope for reconciling our M.

This morning I felt terrified, realizing that MC is more than likely the beginning of the end of our M.

This afternoon I feel... relieved again. I'm thinking that whether we end up M'd or D'd, MC is an opportunity to improve our R. Which will be important for our kids regardless. Not talking, having this fear and lack of trust, is absolutely unhealthy for all parties involved.

I can't control the outcome of our M -- but I can at least do my part to address the underlying issues that are preventing us from communicating.

Maybe focusing on my W's fear and lack of trust is helping me let go of the rope a bit too -- because those seem like truly unresolvable issues at the moment.

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U - I feel for you man, I really do. In some ways I am better off because I know what W thinks, in many others I am worse off because I know what W thinks.

I know it's difficult, but try to let go of expectations. Try to find peace with yourself and realize that while you were partially responsible for the MR, there are 2 people in a MR and making yourself a martyr for the cause, while chivalrous, will not save your MR.

If it were me I would tell W that I am cancelling MC session because I feel it would be counterproductive, and am instead going for IC. But if you are still on board with this MC session, try to do a lot more listening than talking.

I am hopeful for you, U. Stay positive, man smile

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The most productive thing I can do, which ignores outcomes, is to go to MC and work on communication with my W. Whether we stay together or not, we should do this for our kids. That is my stance. Better than limbo where our communication is terrible.

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Originally Posted by unchien
The most productive thing I can do, which ignores outcomes, is to go to MC and work on communication with my W. Whether we stay together or not, we should do this for our kids. That is my stance. Better than limbo where our communication is terrible.


Point taken. You have to do what you feel is best. I'm not here to judge. Just help with advice based on.my situation

Just know that limbo doesnt end after BD. Without knowing it I've been in limbo since the end of 2016. I just became aware of it 9 months ago.

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IW - can you remind me about the details of your prolonged limbo?

I appreciate your advice and wasn’t intending to sound like I’m shooting you down. I feel like my sitch has been in limbo since fall of 2018, I realized it March of this year. I’m 99.99% sure we will be proceeding with D within the first few MC sessions. My W is not one to waffle nor do I expect DBing to make a difference in the outcome of our M. In my state D can take up to 18 months so I guess that is a sort of limbo.

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Originally Posted by unchien
IW - can you remind me about the details of your prolonged limbo?

I appreciate your advice and wasn’t intending to sound like I’m shooting you down. I feel like my sitch has been in limbo since fall of 2018, I realized it March of this year. I’m 99.99% sure we will be proceeding with D within the first few MC sessions. My W is not one to waffle nor do I expect DBing to make a difference in the outcome of our M. In my state D can take up to 18 months so I guess that is a sort of limbo.



No problem, U - no offense taken. Context is hard to convey by text sometimes. All good smile

When I first found DB I thought the BD had been sudden. It occurred 3 months ago, but in reality things had deteriorated rapidly in Sep of 2018. Within a 3 week period, our R fell apart. No PA or EA. Possible IA but that's not confirmed. I was shell shocked. Lots of fights happened, when there had rarely been any previously in the R. Communication ceased almost completely for over 4 months. I took a trip and when I came back I got the full BD, two days after i found this site.

After reading through the resources here, talking/arguing with W in verbal fights, and spending time thinking about things, I am now understanding through hindsight that signs of the MLC began appearing abt 2.5 yrs ago. W was terrified to say anything. Still doesnt want to talk, still in very depressed state, and very much questioning her decision.

My W is also not a waffler, so this, combined with her telling me she doesnt know what shes feeling, when it was all black and white before, has prolonged the limbo. My discovery and implementation of DB also seems to have paused the process of physical separation, or slowed it down a great deal. So I guess that has extended the limbo.

Also Ws character is still in there somewhere. I think at her core she knows my issues are not enough to cause a D. This is where distance comes in, I think, because it gives her time to ponder without me getting in the way.

U - please try not to have expectations. What happens, happens. You can only worry about your own actions. W will do what W wants or feels she needs to do. That's limbo, true, but it's also everyday life. We choose to be with our partners every day. If shes still in the house with you she has not decided yet. That's a positive way to think about it.

I dont know if you believe in it or not, but I'm a firm believer in "what you think about you bring about." Try to stay positive, try to be grateful for what you have.

This may work or may not. But I will be ok either way and so will you. smile

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IW - Some of your sitch sounds similar, some of it different. You have a bit more feedback from your W with some of the fights and even her telling you she's not sure about her feelings. It definitely sounds like a sitch where DB'ing is the right path, giving her space, etc.

My W has shut down completely - I think she is fearful of speaking 1:1 about serious matters, or just does not feel safe and secure with me anymore. My perspective is we could have addressed this months ago with MC but once that fear became entrenched... the whole engine just locked up. Giving her space is not really helping, since giving her space is part of what got us in this mess.

Originally Posted by IronWill

U - please try not to have expectations. What happens, happens. You can only worry about your own actions. W will do what W wants or feels she needs to do. That's limbo, true, but it's also everyday life. We choose to be with our partners every day. If shes still in the house with you she has not decided yet. That's a positive way to think about it.

I dont know if you believe in it or not, but I'm a firm believer in "what you think about you bring about." Try to stay positive, try to be grateful for what you have.

This may work or may not. But I will be ok either way and so will you. smile



IW - My last post sounded like I was expecting D. Perhaps I should have worded that as: "Of all available outcomes, I believe D is the most likely by far." I am also open to other outcomes.

I find my focus is shifting away from "marital status outcome", and more towards "ability to communicate and resolve conflict with W". The latter is going to be important regardless of M or D. And without improvement in that area, I doubt I would come out of MC wanting to stay in the M either.

Even "improved communication" is a dangerous expectation though. All I can say is... if we're going to go to MC, I want to learn as much as I can about listening, communicating, and resolving conflict. For myself. If that happens to help my R with my W, fantastic.

Limbo has been brutal. We've spent 3 months now where I know my W is considering D, but she has no clue (as far as I can tell) that I know. She might be frightened of my reaction. Both of us are in awful situations for our emotional and mental well-being. Are you familiar with the concept of allostatic load? The stress is taking its toll on my health. I can feel my heart palpitate, the blood rush to my head, the stomach churning with anxiety. I can tell it is taking its toll on my W. She is less patient with my kids. None of this is good for our kids. I'm improving with IC and DB, but it is not a healthy long-term situation.

I tend to focus on the negative in my posts, but I am truly feeling much more positive the last 24 hours. I had an R talk yesterday with my W and kept it short, stayed calm, and didn't pressure. She could not have expected me to be so calm. It does not match her expectation of me. I worked out tonight, reached out to a couple friends. I feel good. I am grateful the universe sent me this wake-up call. Bought a couple parenting books to read, so I can make sure I keep focus on my kids as well. Too easy to get sucked into focusing on my marriage at their expense.

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Hey U,

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Bought a couple parenting books to read, so I can make sure I keep focus on my kids as well. Too easy to get sucked into focusing on my marriage at their expense.

Been following your sitch - I read this and it resonated. I’m spending too much thinking about M , R and D. I need to detach and be there for my kids. I think my W may have emotionally abandoned them for whatever fantasy she is acting out and so I need to step up and take the slack.


H41 (me), W43
M10, Together 16
S18, D9

BD - Jan 19
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Originally Posted by unchien
IW - Some of your sitch sounds similar, some of it different. You have a bit more feedback from your W with some of the fights and even her telling you she's not sure about her feelings. It definitely sounds like a sitch where DB'ing is the right path, giving her space, etc.


U - yeah I noticed our situations were similar too. The shutting down was absolute torture. She is still almost completely silent. But since starting DB she has calmed down and I have calmed down. She has also started coming to talk to me when she wants. It is very seldom - once a week or once every 2 weeks.

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My W has shut down completely - I think she is fearful of speaking 1:1 about serious matters, or just does not feel safe and secure with me anymore. My perspective is we could have addressed this months ago with MC but once that fear became entrenched... the whole engine just locked up. Giving her space is not really helping, since giving her space is part of what got us in this mess.


Out of curiosity - what makes you think she isn't secure with you? Has she said anything to that effect? Are you both talking at all?

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IW - My last post sounded like I was expecting D. Perhaps I should have worded that as: "Of all available outcomes, I believe D is the most likely by far." I am also open to other outcomes.


I was here 6 months ago. I had to let go of all outcomes. I had to consider the MR as gone. The old MR is dead, has been for awhile. Right now I'm in the process of seeing if we can be friends.

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I'm improving with IC and DB, but it is not a healthy long-term situation.

My IC told me - when I first started going - that these situations are inherently unstable. They are periods of great upheaval, and cannot last. Which is also why they tell you to focus on yourself and your kids.

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I tend to focus on the negative in my posts, but I am truly feeling much more positive the last 24 hours. I had an R talk yesterday with my W and kept it short, stayed calm, and didn't pressure. She could not have expected me to be so calm. It does not match her expectation of me. I worked out tonight, reached out to a couple friends. I feel good. I am grateful the universe sent me this wake-up call. Bought a couple parenting books to read, so I can make sure I keep focus on my kids as well. Too easy to get sucked into focusing on my marriage at their expense.


Keep improving yourself U. The situation will be what it will be, but I see that you are progressing with yourself. Stay strong, man smile

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Originally Posted by IronWill
Out of curiosity - what makes you think she isn't secure with you? Has she said anything to that effect? Are you both talking at all?

She has not told me this directly.

But I don't think she would tell me if she felt that way. She hasn't shared any feelings about our MR in months.

We do talk about some things. The kids, daily logistics, housework, sometimes our friends or my W's family (we are basically estranged from my family, and though we both agree on the estrangement being healthy for us, we disagree sometimes as to the Why). These conversations can be very friendly and sometimes include laughter. But there are off-limit topics. We don't talk about the M. We don't talk about the future, including things in the next few weeks. We don't talk about me.

I've noticed she's super moody. She can be pretty standoffish for 15 minutes, maybe snap at me a couple times, then turn and have 2 minutes of a pleasant conversation, then turn back to moody again. I'm way less reactive than I used to be, but given my issues and personality these are anxiety-provoking tests for me.

We had a couple nights in January where she unloaded a lot of complaints all at once. Some of them fair (not being more supportive of her career, helping more with the kids), some of them not (accused me of having an affair, accused me of being financially controlling). Then she stopped talking to me about issues. I thought she wanted space. I tried a couple times, and she bristled. In retrospect this was the time I should have pressed to understand better. Or maybe she was already headed down this path.

In March I realized she was considering an exit. Same story I keep telling here... I reacted poorly, pulled over the car, wrote over-the-top letters. After then, the couple times I asked to talk she wanted to do so only in front of IC/MC. It seems like that is still her position today.

We had the brief flare-up a couple weeks ago where she was upset about my distance. I'm still confused by this one. I don't use distance punitively. I do use distance as a learned behavior from dealing with my moody mom. When I sense my W is angry, sad, upset, I would approach her once, and if she bristled, I would leave her alone assuming she wanted space. She never told me whether she did or didn't like this she just clammed up.

I could have pressed more to talk. I do feel like I put myself out there a few times, and it was not 100% my responsibility to initiate talks. Maybe her mindset was that talking is pointless. I don't know. Her story will be different from mine. My story is that with more communication, more feedback, we could have worked through this.

It's really disappointing. I told W last night I was disappointed we didn't fire MC1 early and try someone else in the fall. We both agreed it was a failure. I will always look back at the last 6 months and wonder why W did not want to go back to MC sooner. Not talking for 6 months just etched in stone our bad patterns. Whatever stories we are each telling ourselves are not the truth, but w/o communication we have no way to correct course.

It's pretty clear to me she feels unsafe talking to me 1:1. I strongly believe that I cannot address her fears outside of having a 3rd party present. Having the brief R talk on Sunday, plus last night talking about which MC to go to, were good opportunities for me to stay calm. Minor victories. But... for my W to stop talking for months about serious issues, there must be some deep hurt there, maybe even a PTSD-style effect. I don't know. I'm not saying that I'm sitting here as some easy-going approachable guy. I did those things above, and more. I understand it. I know from her prior history she is sensitive to feeling controlled, that she has proactively built walls in prior R's to protect herself. I can't just say, "Hey I'm no longer that guy from 2 months ago!!" I did those things. And maybe she's hung up on stuff from years ago. I don't really know.

Some couples would have hashed things out with a few arguments and let out steam and moved on. For some reason we could not work through it. It's disappointing. I'm sure we all say that here. I truly believe it. If we get D'd, thanks to this forum and some great friends, I know now that I will be able to move on. I don't want it, at all, but I have no choice and I can look at this as an opportunity to reshape my life the way I want to. It's a new adventure. But I'm still disappointed we could not work things out.

She may also not be talking because she wants to hide her intentions. I don't think she is looking to file a DVRO and run away and operating out of fear that way. It's likely just fear of how I will react if I find out (which of course I already basically know) and making sure she feels safe and protected. Sometimes I feel she is treating me like a mental patient. It's hard not to feel like this is condescending. But I have some empathy for why she would feel that way and do these things. Shining a light on the reality ("Hey W I realize you are thinking about leaving") is not going to help my sitch.

Anyways, not to over-focus on my W, but she has not approached me for months to talk, all the while she's clearly struggling with our MR. She cannot possibly feel safe and secure talking to me.

Originally Posted by IronWill
My IC told me - when I first started going - that these situations are inherently unstable. They are periods of great upheaval, and cannot last. Which is also why they tell you to focus on yourself and your kids.


That is great insight. We are pain-avoiding, pleasure-seeking creatures. These situations are painful for all parties involved. And avoiding pain always takes priority over seeking pleasure. How does the WAS avoid pain? By walking away. How does the WAS seek pleasure? Sometimes with an EA/PA. How does the LBS avoid pain? By fighting to maintain the M. How does the LBS seek pleasure? The misguided LBS begs and pleads, the "enlightened LBS" DB's and works on themselves. These situations are not sustainable. It's obvious that the only way to maintain the M is for the WAS to see that option as less painful.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by IronWill
Out of curiosity - what makes you think she isn't secure with you? Has she said anything to that effect? Are you both talking at all?

She has not told me this directly.

But I don't think she would tell me if she felt that way. She hasn't shared any feelings about our MR in months.

We do talk about some things. The kids, daily logistics, housework, sometimes our friends or my W's family (we are basically estranged from my family, and though we both agree on the estrangement being healthy for us, we disagree sometimes as to the Why). These conversations can be very friendly and sometimes include laughter. But there are off-limit topics. We don't talk about the M. We don't talk about the future, including things in the next few weeks. We don't talk about me.

I've noticed she's super moody. She can be pretty standoffish for 15 minutes, maybe snap at me a couple times, then turn and have 2 minutes of a pleasant conversation, then turn back to moody again. I'm way less reactive than I used to be, but given my issues and personality these are anxiety-provoking tests for me.


Sounds a lot like my W back in December. Uncharacteristic for her and what really threw me out of whack. It was like living with her polar opposite.

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We had a couple nights in January where she unloaded a lot of complaints all at once. Some of them fair (not being more supportive of her career, helping more with the kids), some of them not (accused me of having an affair, accused me of being financially controlling). Then she stopped talking to me about issues. I thought she wanted space. I tried a couple times, and she bristled. In retrospect this was the time I should have pressed to understand better. Or maybe she was already headed down this path.


In my situation, this would not have changed anything. This was going to happen whether I pressed or not. I experimented with not pressing, then pressing. Same results. In hindsight i see now that it was completely out of my control.

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In March I realized she was considering an exit. Same story I keep telling here... I reacted poorly, pulled over the car, wrote over-the-top letters. After then, the couple times I asked to talk she wanted to do so only in front of IC/MC. It seems like that is still her position today.


My IC recommended i write a letter when there was no communication. I wrote 4, held onto them for a day, and ripped them all up when I realized while I had made mistakes in the R, and apologized for them, the litany of items W brought to my attention were not justifiable reasons for ending MR. At the time I thought they were. But given some distance from that conversation, I clearly see it was her own projections. Another thing she never did in the past.

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We had the brief flare-up a couple weeks ago where she was upset about my distance. I'm still confused by this one.


It's weird- most of the DB works, but each R is unique. I've had to go nearly NC for several weeks to get any kind of response. There have been 6 interactions in 4 weeks now since DB (all init by W). Previously in the 2 months prior to DB there was one - init by me.

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It's pretty clear to me she feels unsafe talking to me 1:1. I strongly believe that I cannot address her fears outside of having a 3rd party present. Having the brief R talk on Sunday, plus last night talking about which MC to go to, were good opportunities for me to stay calm. Minor victories. But... for my W to stop talking for months about serious issues, there must be some deep hurt there, maybe even a PTSD-style effect. I don't know. I'm not saying that I'm sitting here as some easy-going approachable guy. I did those things above, and more. I understand it. I know from her prior history she is sensitive to feeling controlled, that she has proactively built walls in prior R's to protect herself. I can't just say, "Hey I'm no longer that guy from 2 months ago!!" I did those things. And maybe she's hung up on stuff from years ago. I don't really know.


U - in all kindness, you have to learn to let that go. It happened, you cant change the past. I know - I did the same pressure tactics and pursuit when I didnt understand what was going on.

Think about WHY you did those things. You were panicked and stressed bc you felt your R slipping away with no explanation. Me too. I felt that way also. Those are not hangable offenses. Those were your valid feelings at that time.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't work on those things. But at the time, given the information (or lack thereof) that you had, those were the reactions you had at your disposal.

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Some couples would have hashed things out with a few arguments and let out steam and moved on. For some reason we could not work through it. It's disappointing.


Very. 100 percent agree.

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Anyways, not to over-focus on my W, but she has not approached me for months to talk, all the while she's clearly struggling with our MR. She cannot possibly feel safe and secure talking to me.


If theres one thing I know, it's that I have no clue what's going on in W's mind right now. It's an awful.spot to be in, but that's where I am. W keeps pulling away, and I am finally seeing just how far away she really is from the R. This is why I'm not pushing her to talk and I'm trying to buy time for her to really think about what she is doing. She hasnt really had any real life consequences yet. I have.

But she is beginning to feel ok occasionally communicating. And I mean very occasionally. A sentence or two here or there.

This has taken months of DBing. Patience and time

Stay strong smile

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Interesting day so far. I stopped at the store to get some groceries. Details obfuscated intentionally.

W: “You got the wrong type of <X>. I don’t like that kind.”
Me: “I didn’t get that kind, I got a different kind.”
W: “I don’t like that one either, it goes bad quickly.”
Me: “OK. What kind should I get next time?”
W: “It’s fine. Forget it.”
Me: “I also got you a 2nd different kind just in case.”
W: “I SAID IT’S FINE IS THAT REASSURING ENOUGH FOR YOU!!!”

Here goes unchien’s brain, whirring up into the sky....!!!

We set up MC next week. Wife had IC today. She seems super stressed even by our new standards. I’m connecting the dots.

It is really bizarre that she jumped right to reassurance. It mean, I know it’s one of my issues. She must also know. She’s never mentioned it before. It didn’t even make sense in the context of our conversation where I was just trying to find out what type of <X> she liked so I could get that next time.

[Shoulder shrug]

Guilty as accused. I like being reassured in my relationships. When I felt a lack of reassurance with my W the last 2 years, my fear of abandonment was triggered and I did and said some regrettable things. She is not the reassuring type. We just never understood each other at that level I guess. Again... disappointing.

In the future, whether we recon or I’m in some future relationship, I will also like reassurance. I will not apologize for that. But I won’t let it overflow into fear of abandonment. That is the key.

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Morning.

Last night W disappeared to talk on the phone for 2 hours. Came back to watch Tv and asked me to join. I declined and went to GAL.

Had a dream about W coming back to me.

Woke up and just realized... she despises me. The way she interacts with me is how she interacts with people she hates. There is no recon. Ever. Even getting to a point where we can coparent amicably is going to be tough.

The rose colored glasses are off. This is over. Now it’s just waiting for her to tell me.

I know I need to suck it up and listen and validate. And not act like I’m giving up. That negativity is poison for my PMA.

I feel really stupid for having hoped we could work things out.

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Originally Posted by unchien


Woke up and just realized... she despises me. The way she interacts with me is how she interacts with people she hates. There is no recon. Ever. Even getting to a point where we can coparent amicably is going to be tough.



This happened to me too. She despised me so much that she filed for D when I pushed her to make a decision. The initial two weeks after D filing were hard for me and I begged, pleaded and reasoned with her. She listened and gave me the "its not you its me". I started 180s slowly and the divorce process was a big part of my GAL working with attorneys, worrying about the financial ruin, worrying about kids, worrying, worrying, worrying. I focused on work, exercised regularly and spent time with kids and it helped a lot. I decided that if she did not want to be with me I won't fight her or delay the D. It was hard letting go but was the best decision I made. Over the next few weeks her anger subsided and she stopped showing hatred. Then she started commenting on how much better I looked since we separated. Then she slowly started showing more respect.

Originally Posted by unchien


I feel really stupid for having hoped we could work things out.


The crazy thing is she filed because I broke all the DB rules. I did not even know about MLC till after the D filing, so I did not know better. But her filing for D is probably a good thing since it helped me get out of limbo. My D is final but all it does is make the separation legal. The M was dead for a long time before the D and if we ever get back, it will be a new relationship anyways. Remarrying is much easier than getting divorced but I have learned that the hope of getting back is the most dangerous thing. I feel much better now than I did in the one year after BD till D as crazy as it sounds. I am nowhere close to being whole but I am a lot better than I was a year ago. I am looking forward to being happy with my life going forward. I am still on an emotional roller coaster but I at least I am looking forward to living the rest of my life instead of living in limbo.

I am not advising you to break DB rules, definitely not saying that. What I am trying to say is that things happen, things get worse but in the long run sometimes they were meant to happen

Given my nature of keeping things bottled up I did not open up this much even in my own thread but I am doing so because I feel our situation is similar and I want to help. I want you to understand that this is a big change in your life and it is normal to feel like things are hopeless. It is normal to feel fear, uncertainty, regret, depression. I certainly did and I still do. But I am getting better with time and one day you will look back and see how far along you have come. Stay strong!

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Thanks MLCxH for the kind words.

Officially she hasn't BD'ed me yet, so I guess there's that. It's really good to hear that things thawed in your sitch... I do hope once my W does BD me, things may become a little less stressful. I worry about our communication alot, because it will be hard to coparent effectively if we barely talk as it is now. We will have to talk even more to coordinate parenting. (Assuming we end up with roughly 50/50 in the long term custody-wise).

I've been considering kind of a crazy idea lately - proposing that we move back to where we lived before. Not as a means to save our M. If I could transfer my existing job role (which is a distinct possibility not confirmed):

Cost of living

This one is huge. Assume 50/50 asset/income split. If we stay, we have to sell our house. We both have to rent dumpy places and will still be over-spending. Not a good sitch for my kids. If we move, I could afford a place in a nice neighborhood with good schools and room for my kids. With enough room that I am not over-stretching my budget.

Better quality of life

Better weather. Better lifestyle. Better fit for my hobbies.

Ability to move

If we stay where we are and D, with custody laws, we are basically locked into not moving for the next 15 years. Also my W has not started work yet, and she could easily restart back where we used to live. Moving sooner is better, if we both want to do it.

Kids' happiness

Happier dad. Happier mom (I'm pretty sure). Closer to family (my W's, but I recognize those relationships are important for my kids). Win-win for the kids' happiness.

There's some downsides. Moving would be expensive, and drawn-out, and long-term my career might suffer. Today it's easy to say that money is not important to me, I might feel differently in 5 years. Other than that, I'm not sure what downside there is. Again it probably only works if I can maintain my existing job. I might have to commute to the office here a few days a month or so. I'm not sure. But if I'm going to be single dad, I think it will be easier on me in our old city.

And if by some magic we reconcile (EXTREMELY UNLIKELY), this is better too! Part of the reason we moved is that W wanted to live in more expensive places, and the job I had could not support it. Now I have a much higher-paying job, and my employer has opened an office in our old city. It seems doable. I could likely even save some money along the way. Not really why I'm thinking about this moving thing, but my attraction to the idea it is M-outcome-independent.

I'm not just going to blurt it out to W yet. It requires careful consideration, as I have no idea exactly where my W stands today with regards to our MR. Pretty sure I'd need/want some legal counsel if we are going to attempt this. But it's an idea..

I'm also a little hesitant that this is some weird replay thing where I may be reliving the past. Maybe part of moving on from my W would be rebuilding my life in this new city, rather than revisiting the past.

But honestly... I do like it better where we used to live...

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Originally Posted by unchien

W: “I SAID IT’S FINE IS THAT REASSURING ENOUGH FOR YOU!!!”

Here goes unchien’s brain, whirring up into the sky....!!


Kindly 2x4 time here, U. It's not about what you bought or didnt buy. She's telling you what she needs right now. Forget her tone - hear the words. She doesnt have the willpower to reassure you.

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It is really bizarre that she jumped right to reassurance. It mean, I know it’s one of my issues.


This is a potential 180 for you. She's being very direct.

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In the future, whether we recon or I’m in some future relationship, I will also like reassurance. I will not apologize for that. But I won’t let it overflow into fear of abandonment. That is the key.


This is something I thought I needed too. It is also part of what caused my MR to fail and it will cause any future Rs (including potentially reconciling with W) to fail. I am correcting it.

Again - cant tell you what to do, but our Ws seem somewhat in the same place on this. Good place to start.

Stay strong, man smile

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Originally Posted by IronWill
Kindly 2x4 time here, U. It's not about what you bought or didnt buy. She's telling you what she needs right now. Forget her tone - hear the words. She doesnt have the willpower to reassure you.

This is a potential 180 for you. She's being very direct.


IW - I definitely know that her reassurance comment had nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Keep in mind we just booked MC for next week - this is probably BD time. I'm sure she is thinking about my contributions to our MR eroding. And I agree 100% that my need for reassurance eroded our MR.

It's a classic "anxious-preoccupied vs. avoidant" relationship issue which probably matches a vast majority of people on this forum.

The strange thing is that I was not seeking reassurance in the moment. I haven't been directly seeking reassurance (e.g. I don't say ILY anymore, I don't seek out her company, etc.). HOWEVER, I know I am absolutely guilty of indirectly seeking reassurance. Little temp checks.

Originally Posted by IronWill
This is something I thought I needed too. It is also part of what caused my MR to fail and it will cause any future Rs (including potentially reconciling with W) to fail. I am correcting it.

Again - cant tell you what to do, but our Ws seem somewhat in the same place on this. Good place to start.

OK so I have to disagree slightly.

On the one hand, absolutely, my excessive need for reassurance has damaged my MR. In that sense, trying to overcorrect all the way to the other end of the spectrum (requiring no reassurance) is a healthy goal.

On the other hand, a truly balanced, healthy individual would still like SOME amount of reassurance in any R.

But I think your point, which I agree with, is men like us need to essentially aim to drop reassurance as a goal, and in doing so we would probably hit that nice center point.

This reminds me of the advice to passive Beta's to start acting more selfishly. To a normal person, this could turn them into a raging narcissist. To a Beta, it's a correction back to more healthy behavior.

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Journal -

As we approach MC next week, I find myself worrying more about how to improve my individual life than my MR. I think about what life will look like 2 years from now, and how I am starting to build confidence that I can do this. I look forward to having time alone with my kids, my own free time, and hobbies, and complete ownership of my life. Then I wonder if I'm being selfish, or retreating into some "healing fantasy" where my life will magically be better, when in reality it is going to be an absolute bitch adjusting. I worry that this is a strategy to avoid the pain that I need to face if I'm going to become a happier, healthier U. I worry that I'm denying how hard being a single dad is going to be.

Set aside whether or not W opts for D. Climbing this recon mountain seems impossible. I will DB as best as I can, but also we are fighting:

1. Healing/repairing past hurts
2. FT/SAHM dynamic w/3 small kids
3. Lack of communication -> lack of trust in each other
4. Possible MLC issues?

I am conflicted about how to handle MC. In a 1:1 conversation with my W, it would make sense to DB: listen, validate, etc. However with a 3rd party, I think that would leave the counselor with a complete lack of information about what is happening from my perspective.

What is the general advice here about approaching first MC session?

I'm not trying to win my W back in MC. I am approaching MC as a way to better myself, to understand what has caused our M to go awry in more detail, and learn. I want to improve communication with my W because we need that, D'd or M'd, for the sake of our kids. But also... I think it's time to air out our issues. If not now, when? If I don't share, how can I expect my W to share? If we have an issue of conflict avoidance, why not go for it and start addressing the conflict? Isn't that one of the most 180 things to do?

Forget about protecting myself emotionally. This is already hell.

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For the first session I would let her do 80-90 percent of the talking and listen and validate. She will eventually need to reveal her attentions. In the beginning keep your cards close to your chest.

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LH19 -

Yeah, I think I will at least say I feel like we've been in limbo and not communicating for a very long time. I don't know, need to think about it. I have several days. It helps that I don't think it's going to matter much what I do or say, my W will be driving the agenda.

I might have accelerated S or D by kickstarting MC, but I still feel okay with this. I don't think prolonged DB in my sitch (FT/SAHM split, lack of communication, etc.) was going to make a major turn in our MR. And I don't think my kids deserve this long-term stalemate where both mom and dad are unhappy and not being the best parents we can be.

Random story: I wore a new shirt today that I bought a few weeks ago. I almost never buy my own clothes. Probably once in the last 5 years. W noticed, and said, "Nice shirt!" I said "Thanks" and left. Funny... when I bought the shirt, I thought "here's a DB thing I can do, treat myself, show my W I'm capable of taking care of myself, I can't wait until she sees me wearing this shirt, I look stylish." Today I thought, "Meh". Just didn't care. I'm wearing it because I'm going out with some friends for dinner later, not to peacock in front of W.

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Posted yesterday:

Originally Posted by unchien
There is no recon. Ever. Even getting to a point where we can coparent amicably is going to be tough.

The rose colored glasses are off. This is over. Now it’s just waiting for her to tell me.

I know I need to suck it up and listen and validate. And not act like I’m giving up. That negativity is poison for my PMA.

I feel really stupid for having hoped we could work things out.


8 hours later...

Originally Posted by unchien

I've been considering kind of a crazy idea lately - proposing that we move back to where we lived before.


UC, stop! Breathe! Quit bouncing around all over the place, you are driving me crazy and if you're driving me crazy your W has got to be about to lose her mind! Just caaaaaaaaalm down. This is a marathon, meaning a very, very long race in which you need to pace yourself.

You are clearly a very analytical person. I think you've posted more lists than anyone I've ever seen on here. That has it's place, I bet you are very good at your job. But in DB'ing it's really going to work against you. You want to break every little thing down and examine it from all angles, dissect it, put it back together, run tests on it. Your W however is playing by a completely set of rules. Her "rules" are no rules. She's operating purely on feelings and emotion. What you're doing is like trying to dissect a car motor in the hopes of learning how the human brain works. Do you follow what I'm saying? you're trying to apply your analytical skills to something that is more spiritual than scientific. And believe me, I get it! I did the same. I did not start to detach and find peace until I accepted that I was never going to figure it out and I needed to quit trying though.

So that's my challenge to you. Take a month and put your mind in neutral. Quit trying to figure out if she's done, if there's hope, if you should stay, if you should move, what you should say to her, what it means when she says stuff to you, what about etc. etc. etc. Stop thinking and overthinking and just zen out for a while. No pressure on her and none on you. Do that for a month and see what happens to her AND to you. I think it will help. This isn't a sprint, you have the gift of time. Put it to use, it's your greatest tool.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
UC, stop! Breathe! Quit bouncing around all over the place, you are driving me crazy and if you're driving me crazy your W has got to be about to lose her mind! Just caaaaaaaaalm down. This is a marathon, meaning a very, very long race in which you need to pace yourself.

AS - Guilty as charged. I know. I need to Zen out. I will make my response more simple.

The move idea is about molding a better life for me as a single D'd dad with 3 kids. I have zero hopes of reconciliation through the MC process.

That being said, proposing this idea to my W right now is not my plan. I have a plan, but need to be patient.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


UC, stop! Breathe! Quit bouncing around all over the place, you are driving me crazy and if you're driving me crazy your W has got to be about to lose her mind! Just caaaaaaaaalm down. This is a marathon, meaning a very, very long race in which you need to pace yourself.


Very much agree with AS. U - the first thing I did when I was in this situation was to learn how to calm down. It took me 3 months to learn how to do that.

Let the MR go. She hasnt left yet. She hasnt even BD yet.

You have time. Use it - try meditating. It helped me greatly. And yes I was one of those who never thought meditating would work.

It does.

Quote

Take a month and put your mind in neutral. Quit trying to figure out if she's done, if there's hope, if you should stay, if you should move, what you should say to her, what it means when she says stuff to you, what about etc. etc. etc. Stop thinking and overthinking and just zen out for a while. No pressure on her and none on you. Do that for a month and see what happens to her AND to you. I think it will help. This isn't a sprint, you have the gift of time. Put it to use, it's your greatest tool.



Very wise words. Trust AS. I did this. It does help enormously.

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I got triggered today. Some real anger.

MC sent some forms to fill out ahead of next week's appointment. Names, kids, then WHAM 3 pages of questions about S and D. Do you a L? Have you filed? How much income do you make? Have you heard of collaborative D?

Not really any good choices here. Push for different MC? Unlikely to change the outcome. Turn down MC altogether? Then we are back to not communicating at all and things worsening by the month.

To AS, IW, LH19 - My hope for recon is fully extinguished. The only mystery now is how this will all unfold.

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U,

I think you need to fill out the paperwork and go in and face the music. Trust me nothing is worse then limbo. When my W filed it was almost a sense of relief. Once you get in there and find her true intentions then make a decision on whether you want to continue or not. Learning to communicate for coparenting is not a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Not really any good choices here. Push for different MC? Unlikely to change the outcome. Turn down MC altogether?


I would cancel the appointment. Tell your W that you are interested in marriage counseling ONLY if the intent is to work on the M. This counselor is clearly just a traditional "divorce facilitator" so what is the point in continuing to go?

Originally Posted by unchien
Then we are back to not communicating at all and things worsening by the month.


How could it be worse? She pushes for S or D? Is that not EXACTLY what's going to happen in MC? I can answer that for you- YES. There is a REASON the MC sent those forms, because it is going to be the main topic of conversation in the next meeting. Don't worry about being back to "not communicating", even though you haven't officially been BD'd you are clearly dealing with a WAS and the BEST thing to do is... time and space. So not communicating is fine. Pull back and remove all pressure.

Quote
To AS, IW, LH19 - My hope for recon is fully extinguished. The only mystery now is how this will all unfold.


Do you remember what I just told you yesterday? And what was your reply? "AS - Guilty as charged. I know. I need to Zen out." Don't SAY it, DO it. Your hope is NOT fully extinguished, that's just pessimistic "stinking thinking". But I will tell you this, if you can't pull back and give her time and space and remove all this crazy pressure then you ARE doomed. You've got to change paths and do it now. And before you say "oh but I'm not applying pressure" YES YOU ARE. I can feel the pressure from here, all you have to do is be in the same room as her and she will feel it too. Try some DB'ing for a while, you will be happy you did.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I second AS about canceling the MC appt. Why pay for someone to get you the news that you already know. My strict rule about MC was that I would engage in it if it was about working on the MR, not facilitating divorce. You might as well go full steam on DBing now.

Now, it's all about action and less about words. I also fully cosign the second para from AS about applying pressure. You need to basically get out of her way and do your thing.


No one is coming to save you!

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I am going to add a third voice to the choir. The biggest help in my sitch (for me, for W, for the MR) was.....*drumroll* time and space. Removing the pressure, stopping pursuit, changing my focus off my sitch allowed the negative feelings to subside, at least to the extreme extent, for her and for me.

A pragmatic person would see much use in going to a MC to get BD'ed.

Like the others said, you only need to go if she's wanting to work on things. And you only say that to her as briefly as possible. And if there's no quick, affirmative response to that then you turn and walk and go to your GAL. Leave the house and do something.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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U,
It looks like you have two choices, live in limbo or let your wife BD you in MC and explore options for the D. Reading through your posts it is clear her mind seems to be made up, so fighting the BD probably only adds to more pressure. Then there is always a risk she may go see a lawyer if you dont go to the MC. My W did not care about me and just sent me a D notice without even giving MC a chance. At least with MC your W will look at both options, D and potential recon.

These are my thoughts but you have to make your own decision here. Sorry you are in this position, it is horrible but you will heal with time. Important thing is you accept your situation and not live in denial. It is hard but you have no choice as I can tell you from my experience.

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Wow so much feedback, thanks everyone (LH19, MLCxH, AS, Maika, ovrrnbw)!

There are 3 general opinions here: (1) Go to MC; (2) State I will only go to MC if the intent is to work on the MR; (3) Cancel MC, no explanation.

I lean towards #1 (go to MC) at this point.

#2 I rule out. W won't tell me her intent - remember she won't even talk to me 1:1 at home. She would just lie ahead of time.

#3 is more of an alpha move. We did have a different MC option lined up, so would probably reschedule there soon afterwards anyways. But again -- is it really going to matter? I don't think a WAS's mindset will change based on the MC chosen.

I do not like my sitch. I used to want recon badly because I thought I would be miserable as a single dad. I no longer feel that way. I'm not saying it won't be extremely difficult and painful to transition. I prefer recon, I prefer that we work on the MR and provide my kids a stable family. But I also accept single dad life, and no longer see it is a disastrous outcome. So many posters here (including the above list) have helped me incredibly to see that I WILL get through this.

I guess my point is... I don't care about recon right now. I accept either MR outcome. So why not get on with it and get my W to communicate her intent, which she has not done explicitly for >6 months?

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U,

If you were already bombed I would vote for #3. Since you weren’t and you are tired of limbo I’m ok with 1.

Last night I took the kids out for ice cream and it was awesome. We talked about our days and laughed. Shortly after D it was weird because something was missing. I don’t have that feeling anymore.

Tonight after work I’m headed out for a golfing and beach weekend that will include some beer and who knows what. Guess what, I didn’t need to clear it with anyone to go. I’m going to enjoy every fuching minute of it.

Now I’m not going to lie I do miss married life and the family unit sometimes. But like AS says, this is my new norm and it’s a pretty great life. It will take some time to adjust.

The most important thing is to keep moving forward.

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I don't think there's necessarily a terrible option out of the 3 you've been mulling over. You're going into MC with eyes wide open and so it shouldn't come as a shocker that a third party has been hired to facilitate separation and divorce. Being in limbo with a non-communicative spouse s#cks and if this will end it, go for it.

If this is going the way I think it's going to go, stick with what LH said earlier - let her do most of the talking and keep your cards close to the chest. If she says that we need to get a D, my only response would be - This is not the path I want to take, but if it is what you want, I won't stand in your way. Deliver that type of line in a cool calm manner and let her sit with that. She's going to expect you're going to have an emotional breakdown - don't let that happen. You need to process it, do it beforehand. TBH - there is a major difference between speculation and reality, and I can tell you from experience that when this actually happens, you're going to feel a swell of emotions. Just lock them up during MC and deal with it privately. Last thing you want your W to see is an emotionally blabbering version of you. No begging, no pleading, no nothing. Don't try to change her mind or offer alternatives. Read LH's tagline - I live by that rule in conjunction with my own tagline.

Moving forward is your best option and less words more action. Just like LH, I adore my time with the kids and we are making a whole new set of memories. In some ways I am really happy that I get to create these very personal memories with them that doesn't include exW - my kids will always remember that it was something special between the three of us. Yes, the family dynamic is missing and I do miss that at times. but having that level of empowerment of how you create a relationship with your kids is so amazing.

Take a wider perspective, and it will come with some time, but your life as Unchien is now truly being unleashed. It is so liberating and full of love, joy, and whatever I want it to be. The path is not easy, but it is so hella rewarding.


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Originally Posted by unchien


I do not like my sitch.

This is so true. I have been engaged on your thread from the start and one of the things I have seen you struggle with is the uncertainty of limbo. This is why I suggested option #1

You are a person who thinks logically. Once you know what you are faced with you will actually be able to focus on the right steps. Otherwise you will just be analyzing all theoretical options and I can see this is driving you crazy.



Originally Posted by unchien


But I also accept single dad life, and no longer see it is a disastrous outcome. So many posters here (including the above list) have helped me incredibly to see that I WILL get through this.


Once W filed I was forced to start accepting that I don't have control over whether I am a single dad or not. I am still not completely there and do hope for recon but the legal process has forced me to come to terms with things quicker. It helped a lot in accepting I had no control on many things and focus on only what I had control on.

Originally Posted by unchien

I guess my point is... I don't care about recon right now. I accept either MR outcome. So why not get on with it and get my W to communicate her intent, which she has not done explicitly for >6 months?

You will have periods of self-doubt and will go back and forth between detachment and recon. But important thing is you will move forward and life will go on even if it is different from what we planned for

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Originally Posted by LH19
Last night I took the kids out for ice cream and it was awesome. We talked about our days and laughed. Shortly after D it was weird because something was missing. I don’t have that feeling anymore.

LH19 - This is inspiring. I already love my alone time with my kids, and I'm about to have a lot more of it!

Originally Posted by Maika
If this is going the way I think it's going to go, stick with what LH said earlier - let her do most of the talking and keep your cards close to the chest. If she says that we need to get a D, my only response would be - This is not the path I want to take, but if it is what you want, I won't stand in your way. Deliver that type of line in a cool calm manner and let her sit with that. She's going to expect you're going to have an emotional breakdown - don't let that happen.

Maika - I have practiced a very similar line at least 200x by this point. I think I can stay cool, calm, collected. I'm more concerned with how the session goes after BD since I can't predict, but will focus on remaining calm.

It's possible she won't BD in the first session, and that's fine too. No expectations.

Originally Posted by Maika
Moving forward is your best option and less words more action. Just like LH, I adore my time with the kids and we are making a whole new set of memories. In some ways I am really happy that I get to create these very personal memories with them that doesn't include exW - my kids will always remember that it was something special between the three of us. Yes, the family dynamic is missing and I do miss that at times. but having that level of empowerment of how you create a relationship with your kids is so amazing.

You (and LH) have no idea how valuable these stories are to me. Six weeks ago, I thought single dad-hood was a life sentence to loneliness and misery.

Hearing both the joy and yes, the lingering melancholy, has really uplifted my spirits and allowed me to turn around my outlook. If it was all positivity, I would be skeptical. Thank you so much.

Originally Posted by MLCxH
Once W filed I was forced to start accepting that I don't have control over whether I am a single dad or not. I am still not completely there and do hope for recon but the legal process has forced me to come to terms with things quicker. It helped a lot in accepting I had no control on many things and focus on only what I had control on.

Zero control, absolutely.

One thing I haven't talked about much here... my parents and I have an estranged R, essentially NC except for critical things for about 3 years. They chose to step away when I wanted to try to work things out. There are undiagnosed mental health issues involved with one of my parents. I went to IC to deal with the situation for years. I felt guilted, shamed, unsupported, unloved. Communication was challenging. There was about a 10 year slow downward spiral. It was not that different from limbo with an eventual BD.

Going through that experience has helped me deal with my current sitch. Unconditional love does not exist. Life is tenuous. You cannot assume people will always be there for you forever. You have to make yourself happy. My W is not on a pedestal. I thought we would share a wonderful life together - it just didn't work out. I can find happiness elsewhere. Plans change sometimes.

The other part of the situation with my parents that applies here: My parents f***ed me up. I was emotionally neglected, supported through my achievements, but not truly loved or supported emotionally. It f***ed up how I dealt with my M issues. I recognize that, accept that I have work to do, I've made a lot of progress. Circle of life. I'm not repeating my parents' mistakes, but the legacy lives on in a different way.

Anyways, yeah... I am getting beat over the head with a life lesson here... don't depend on other people for your own happiness!

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Quick and painful here. As I've said from the start, cancel MC. Say you dont think it will be effective. Go to IC instead.

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IW - we are both in IC, and have been for several months.

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I know you have been - been keeping up. I meant it as more of a reason to not go to MC.

Right now MC is a huge anvil of pressure hanging over you both. Find ways to reduce the pressure.

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WTH last night W texts me pictures of new couches (expensive) and says not now but it would be nice to get some new couches in awhile. (Our kids have kind of destroyed ours). I didn’t respond.

MC 4 days from now and she’s thinking about long term furniture?

Doesn’t change my mindset I just find this bizarre....

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Ghost her Uni. Im starting to realize that its is us the LBH that are "in the fog" not the WAW. Hence the purpose of temp checks from all these WAW's. Its an unconscious manipulative game, that they don't know they are even playing out of dissatisfaction, and boredom from their lives. Put her down from the center of your life. Your time, your value, your emotions and your dignity will suffer less as a result. I've done it. We have all done it in the last several months. There is a dynamic at play here. Do what we should have done right at BD. Ghost her. You have no value to her, and she's testing to see if you are on the hook as plan b. Don't take the bait.

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IHC - yeah my mindset in the last two weeks has really turned to: she has to see value in me. Right now I’m not seeing it. Maybe in MC. But I’m not trying to “save” my marriage or figure out what I need to do to get my WAW to turn around. I’m going to need to see something from her too.

I guess it just made my mind start wondering what this means for our first session... not in an obsessive way just a detached “well this is peculiar behavior” kind of way. Bizarro world these limbo situations are.

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Uni I may be jumping on my high horse as of lately on concepts I once understood and had limited experience with in the actual dating world before I met my W. The study of running game, maintain frame, withstanding $hit tests, being strong and unattached to outcone, seduction, attraction, etc etc.

I'm saying this with humility though. Problem is I became complacent. Problem is I stopped internalizing all the stuff I thought I learned for life regarding attraction, once I thought I had the R that I thought i wanted. In other words, I have no long game in relationships. Problem is I dealt with all the issues over the years incorrectly. Let my guard down, showed my insecurities (later to be responses agsinst me.) my emotions, my indecision, my irrespinsibilites, my lack of follow through, my inconsistencies, my mis direction of purpose, and the latter. Its no wonder they don't feel safe with us... They made us b@th boys, slowly over time, that we didn't notice. Some of them even brought up issues multiple times, and we never actually addressed them. Which is why we no longer hold value in their eyes. Time to 180 on that $hit for ourselves and our own self worth and character for our own growth.

The other problem is what I have realized over the last week is. I'm not willing to be with someone or even reconcile with someone who won't acknowledge what they have to considerably change as well. That are willing to gas light me, project onto me, blame and shame me, use me, manipulate me, etc, when they have no desire to be with me any more. I've realized that history means nothing to them. Only the present and future. No amount of convincing works. I've learned that it's better to change their mood then to change their mind. I've learned that slowly over time, I have lost my value to them like some used car. Even though I'm starting to sound like a narcissist by making it all about rebuilding myself. I've realize that there is a dynamic to all of this. Narcissist and the co-dependent. That dynamic works both ways with the sexes.

I want you to think about what attracted them to us in the first place? We were independent, fun, exciting, courting, unapologetic, driven with purpose, unattached to outcome, emotionally stable from the wears of life. They said yes to us then because we were unaffected and on our own path. They said yes because at that time we held value to them based on their feelings in that moment. We quafifed them initially, and now they are qualifying us. Sadly we have not stood the test of time.

Well its time to grow now Uni. Time to grow, GAL, adapt, change, move forward, or whatever context you want to put it in. No one knows this more intimately than our spouses and we cannot fool them if we are faking it. We cannot appear as if we actually changed and grew. We actually have to do it, and do it for ourselves. If they happen to notice in time and space then it's a crapshoot. Maybe they will notice and maybe they won't? But they will have to see a different person with different behaviors, a different outlook, and different attitude, and they will have to be attracted to it. And it will have to be more powerful than them. We cannot be the same person and neither can they.

Until that day if it ever comes? I have absolutely no fear or regrets at this point ghosting my WAW or divorcing her. My life, what is best for me, my emotions and my well being is in my own and only my own hands now. As it should be.

I hope you find yourself Uni, and move upward from this. Rooting for ya.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS


The other problem is what I have realized over the last week is. I'm not willing to be with someone or even reconcile with someone who won't acknowledge what they have to considerably change as well. That are willing to gas light me, project onto me, blame and shame me, use me, manipulate me, etc, when they have no desire to be with me any more. I've realized that history means nothing to them. Only the present and future. No amount of convincing works. I've learned that it's better to change their mood then to change their mind. I've learned that slowly over time, I have lost my value to them like some used car. Even though I'm starting to sound like a narcissist by making it all about rebuilding myself. I've realize that there is a dynamic to all of this. Narcissist and the co-dependent. That dynamic works both ways with the sexes.
.


Reason I decided to not fight the D was because I felt if she did not respect everything I have done for her, then she does not deserve me. It is a shame that everyone in the family with me, her and kids will lose but I did not cause this. Did I make mistakes? Yes but am I responsible for this? No

I got tired of being the one in the relationship who had to take the right decision and make the sacrifice. That is not a relationship when only one person tries. I also stopped rewriting history on my part where I was accepting and forgiving everything she had done over the last years. Yes, that is what married couples do but again she fired me as her H so why do I have to do the forgiving?

If there is to be an R she has to at least take 2 steps for 8 of mine otherwise even if we R I will have a miserable life. I don't know what the future holds but I cannot live sharing my life with someone that won't show basic courtesy or respect for everything I do for her

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Well found a post it with a divorce attorney name and our marriage counselor name written down by W’s IC. Wednesday is the BD day everybody! Thought about confronting her today but what’s the point?

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U,

Im really sorry you saw the post it. I'm guessing it was a gut punch. I think you may want to consider canceling the MC appointment and make her put on her big girl pants and BD you. If she asks why just say you thought it over and decided since you don't know her intentions you are not interested in attending.

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I’m getting used to the gut punches. Not sure if I’m going to change anything, I don’t see the point.

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The point would be to not make it easy for her.

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I know. But honestly what’s the point? She’s going to have a change of heart? This woman is afraid to talk to me 1:1 at home.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Well found a post it with a divorce attorney name and our marriage counselor name written down by W’s IC. Wednesday is the BD day everybody! Thought about confronting her today but what’s the point?


I mentioned it in a previous post but one of the risks of not going to MC is that W may force your hand by hiring an attorney. Looks like W has made up her mind to at least explore D so in my opinion confronting may be useless. I case you are still going to MC on Wednesday I think you will at least get more details on what she is thinking

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Agreed MLCxH. At least I’ll have information.

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Sorry you are in this situation. It sounds like your W might be like mine was. She didn't have the courage to confront the issue herself so used MC as pretext to do it. It gave her the safe space to feel like someone was on her side supporting her as she voiced her "truth." It's a cowardly way to do things, but from what I gather on here, pretty common. For my EW it took her 3 sessions before she was ready to admit the truth, so don't necessarily expect it to come out all at once. Of course, unlike you, I had no idea it was coming. I thought we were actually trying to work through a rough patch.

It is completely up to you how to handle it. Just realize that MC is absolutely useless in saving a marriage unless both parties want it to work.


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Thanks Davide - I expect you have it exactly right. And that MC will not save our MR.

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Just to be clear, I have no clue if your MR can be saved. But if is to be saved I think it will be a much longer process, and that this round of MC will have nothing to do with it.

Hang in there. It does get better.


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Davide - that’s exactly my mindset! I’m trying to be prepared for the worst. A BD is easy. Harder would be if she doesn’t BD but starts going after all of my past hurts and issues. I’m not feeling ready to open up and share because I see no signs of hope at the moment. And it can only make me more vulnerable in the D process. So the scenario where she doesn’t BD me in the first session would be the toughest to prepare for.

If we are ever to save this MR, an honest discussion of both of our contributions would have to happen.

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Shifting gears a bit...

How should I approach this first session?

I know if she BD’s what I will say. Won’t repeat it here but following the basic advice. Might ask for a couple reasons why just to understand.

What if it’s unclear early on? I understand some people don’t get the BD in the first session. It’s only 50 minutes. My stance if things are not clear would be I feel like we are drifting apart and not communicating, and I want to work on that.

What if past hurts and issues are raised? Here I feel cautious. My tendency would be to start talking. A lot. But... if I don’t know my W’s stance I’m not going to start apologizing for everything. I just think this may be tricky to navigate.

Also... are there other scenarios I should be prepared for?

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And... please remind me why I shouldn’t just tell my W “this MC is obviously a D specialist.” I have zero hopes of recon. I’m done. The only good reason I can think to just go to this session for the BD is because communicating with my W about my concern is itself acting as if we have a normal MR. We don’t. So I should follow the process or whatever.

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Not that I ever got as far as joint MC because W flip flopped on it with me, then accused me of flip flopping on it.
But here are a few questions Uni.

1.) If she raises past hurts and issues? What is her intentions of doing so in MC? To get you to address them and work on the M and communicate better? Or to validate herself in front of the MC?

2.) If there is anything I have learned from here is there is nothing wrong with apologizing for past transgressions ONCE AND ONLY ONCE. The rest is just shaming tactics and validation to them to justify proceed forward. They are typically confused on what to do, and what they are feeling, until someone can validate that (They ate not crazy, they are not over reacting, they are making the right decisions based on their truth, etc.)

3.) Is you becoming more vulnerable in front of W while she is state of being withdrawn, going to benefit you, or the M?

4.) This is just my sad experience, but what makes you think your W is going to acknowledge her contributions to the downfall of the marriage right now, when she is withdrawn, when she is done, and when she is the star of the show?
According to most on here, they dont acknowledge or want to acknowledge their contributions to the downfall with humility until years later, when they have somewhat healed, when they have had their space, and when they have already followed through with their actions for leaving, seperating divorcing, etc. Think about it? If they wanted to save the M and have certain issues addressed, they would have methodically brought them up, long before this point, if they haven't already, to work with you on them.

5.) We can't read their minds, what's plauging them (although they would like to think that we should just get it.) But we can read their state. Change their mood. Not their mind.

I would just ask her directly. (They seem pretty obvious from the attorney card. "What are your intentions of joint MC?" And what would you hope to accomplish or achieve from it?"

The issues of communications is the worst, because you being mis perceived, villianized, shamed, misunderstood, to some one you care about, but has absolutely no desire to resolve things, just validate and justify their own actions for leaving.

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IHC-

I am on mobile so this will be short but will respond more later.

What struck me in your response was that I need to focus on what is best for me. Sharing my feelings? Only if it helps the MR.

And as far as verifying my W’s intentions? I already know. Doing this ahead of time feels like a ploy to alleviate my anxiety. Sure I could cancel but as others have pointed out this may result in W involving the L right away.

What is best for me and my kids? My goal here is to get clarity on my MR (most likely W asking for D) and then move forward with what I need to do to pick up the pieces and move on with my life. In that sense, given my W hasn’t talked to me about anything important in months, I feel like the right choice is to stay quiet and go see this D specialist MC.

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U, I would still cancel. You seem 99% sure you're going to get BD'd, why let her do it on her terms. Throw her off the game and cancel MC. Do you really, REALLY want two people ganging up on you? Screw that. If she wants to BD you then fine, she can do it in a place YOU are comfortable with on YOUR schedule. Plus like you said, canceling is the alpha thing to do and it's time to start exerting some alpha moves on her.


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AS - This is a tough position.

The MC told me (unethically) over the phone he thought we would end up D'd. My W clearly wants it. But I also want some clarify on out sitch so we can move on.

I have thought about texting my W (remember, R talk is shut down by her) that I find it strange that the MC predicted the outcome of our MR before meeting with us.

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Sorry everyone this is going to be more of a vent post. I am cycling.

Since March I've been expecting a BD. I saw evidence of my W being unhappy, then had the freak out "pull over the car" and then "write a bunch of letters" incidents. I'm not even sure those things made my sitch worse or the same. Now it's June and we're going to a D specialist to start MC. It's so frustrating. I want to call it off. I want to call out the MC for being unethical for predicting the outcome of my MR before a single session. I want to call out my W for hiding and being sneaky and lying to me and taking my kids on trips while I travel for work.

And yes, I admittedly am still frustrated that my W did not give me a chance to explain. I want to tell her WHY I pulled over on the side of the road. She hasn't even given me that opening. Instead she built up these walls where we can only communicate in front of D specialists apparently. That she won't give me any clarity on our future. That I'm not even sure if I'm joining her with the kids on a trip to my in-laws in 2 weeks for July 4th. I feel patronized. I feel used. I feel discarded.

I feel like she thinks I'm gullible. As if I don't already know what she's going to do. It's insulting. She treats me like a mental patient and not the person she used to love. It's worse than just her falling out of love. She treats me like I'm some emotionally inferior person.

It's a lot of complex emotions. I'm angry, I'm hurt. She's defining every step of our lives right now. It [censored].

And yet... I feel like the move here is to suck it up, wait 2 more days, go to MC on Wednesday, receive the BD calmly, say it's not what I want, but I won't stand in your way, ask for a couple reasons why, and then start moving on with my life. I can't stop the BD, and I can't stop the D.

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U - sounds like you know with a great degree of certainty what's going to happen during MC. I have to agree with LH and AS on this - cancel the MC. This will be the alpha move (AS), and you're not making this easy on her (LH). My W had massive communication issues, and she still does. Let your W have the ball$ to come out and say it. If she goes straight to L, so what? Isn't that her next stop after the MC anyways? You just circumvented the first stop so she gets her act together and goes to the actual outcome rather than beating around the bush.

I think you're holding out a small ray of hope that during MC she'll actually say something about working on the MR. For someone who has communication issues, this is not how they would go about it. Also, if she wanted to work on the MR, the signs would be way more straightforward where you wouldn't have to play guessing games.

I know you're suffering and this limbo status is hurting you. It's time you took control of the situation rather than wait for whatever she's dishing out. Take some agency and control back. She hasn't created an opening for you to discuss the car incident and other things. You say that she's afraid of you. I don't think you can remedy that in the short term. Those are her issues and she has to get counseling for that. Your explanations for your behaviour are not going to explain away or dissipate her feelings of what happened. Best to do a turn around on those things. You acted out of desperation and it was misunderstood. The exact opposite of that is to act out of certainty and live your life.

Do what you feel is best, but I think going to MC is just another check mark off her list. I'd rather see you go as dark as possible on her, GAL, improve your personal life and engage in growth activities, live your life and give her tons of space and time. All whilst with a positive and confident attitude. I know it's not easy to pull it off, but it will come with practice and action.


No one is coming to save you!

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Originally Posted by unchien
That she won't give me any clarity on our future.



I am sorry U but the truth is she cannot be more clear on what she thinks your future is. If there was any doubt the MC has confirmed it. I am really sorry you are in this situation but you need to accept this is what she wants. She may change her mind in the future but this is what she wants and the sooner you accept it the better for you.

Originally Posted by unchien

I'm angry, I'm hurt. She's defining every step of our lives right now. It [censored].


I have been there and I am still there and it [censored]. But you cannot control what you cannot control

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
U, I would still cancel. You seem 99% sure you're going to get BD'd, why let her do it on her terms. Throw her off the game and cancel MC. Do you really, REALLY want two people ganging up on you? Screw that. If she wants to BD you then fine, she can do it in a place YOU are comfortable with on YOUR schedule. Plus like you said, canceling is the alpha thing to do and it's time to start exerting some alpha moves on her.


THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Times infinity.


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Originally Posted by unchien
AS - This is a tough position.

The MC told me (unethically) over the phone he thought we would end up D'd. My W clearly wants it. But I also want some clarify on out sitch so we can move on.

I have thought about texting my W (remember, R talk is shut down by her) that I find it strange that the MC predicted the outcome of our MR before meeting with us.



This isn't just beta thinking....this is omega thinking!!

"But I also want some clarify on out sitch so we can move on."

You need MC for that? And I think you will be grossly disappointed on this front. Being ready to move on is on YOU and has nothing to do with her. You need IC not MC. MC at this point is fruitless. She isn't going in there to be open and honest and forthcoming. She is going in there to manipulate, get what she wants, and then be able to say "But we tried everything including MC!!"

Cancel MC. Take AS's advice. AS helped me so much through my stich. I ended up Ring, but even if we hadn't, I would have been in a healthy place thanks to AS's advice.


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U - yep I agree, cancel MC. but you knew I was going to say that already.

Stay strong smile

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Originally Posted by Maika
I think you're holding out a small ray of hope that during MC she'll actually say something about working on the MR. For someone who has communication issues, this is not how they would go about it. Also, if she wanted to work on the MR, the signs would be way more straightforward where you wouldn't have to play guessing games.

Maika - I honestly have zero hope now. Maybe it doesn't come across in my posts. I expect a D filing and then we will see how things play out. I'm getting myself prepared.

Originally Posted by Maika
Do what you feel is best, but I think going to MC is just another check mark off her list. I'd rather see you go as dark as possible on her, GAL, improve your personal life and engage in growth activities, live your life and give her tons of space and time. All whilst with a positive and confident attitude. I know it's not easy to pull it off, but it will come with practice and action.

What is really upsetting me is that this is mediation disguised as "MC".

I am guilty of always thinking what my W is thinking, and not what I want. But...I don't even think MC is a check mark on her list. It is a "safe space" to tell me the news. I can choose MC as the backdrop, or choose to be served. It's a fact. She is too afraid for whatever reason to just tell me at a coffee shop or 1:1.

Originally Posted by MLCxH
I am sorry U but the truth is she cannot be more clear on what she thinks your future is. If there was any doubt the MC has confirmed it. I am really sorry you are in this situation but you need to accept this is what she wants. She may change her mind in the future but this is what she wants and the sooner you accept it the better for you.

I accept it. Now it's onto the next steps in the D process, all while DB'ing the best I can for MYSELF. I have dropped the rope.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
U, I would still cancel. You seem 99% sure you're going to get BD'd, why let her do it on her terms. Throw her off the game and cancel MC. Do you really, REALLY want two people ganging up on you? Screw that. If she wants to BD you then fine, she can do it in a place YOU are comfortable with on YOUR schedule. Plus like you said, canceling is the alpha thing to do and it's time to start exerting some alpha moves on her.

AS - I am really waffling on this.

I can't dictate the place and time where she BD's me. Of course I can keep avoiding certain situations. Eventually I would get papers handed to me. I'm not hoping for recon before BD. It's just not going to happen. I know this.

I don't think this MC guy will gang up on me. He's supposed to be neutral. Obviously I would walk out if I felt it was one-sided. He said he thought we would end up D'ed based on what I was telling him, not my W.

What bothers me is going to someone under the guise of it being "MC" and then transitioning to mediation. That changes the whole dynamic. And it's not the MC's fault -- it's my W being dishonest about her intentions. It is truly dishonest.

Either way, I would not BEGIN mediation (with a fresh person) without first clearly receiving the communication that my W wants a D.

Originally Posted by Steve85
"But I also want some clarify on out sitch so we can move on."

You need MC for that? And I think you will be grossly disappointed on this front. Being ready to move on is on YOU and has nothing to do with her. You need IC not MC. MC at this point is fruitless. She isn't going in there to be open and honest and forthcoming. She is going in there to manipulate, get what she wants, and then be able to say "But we tried everything including MC!!"

Cancel MC. Take AS's advice. AS helped me so much through my stich. I ended up Ring, but even if we hadn't, I would have been in a healthy place thanks to AS's advice.

Steve85 - You are right, I already have clarity. We are not going to "MC". We are going to "BD facilitation". That is fully understood. BTW I do go to IC and it's been great.

At this point in my sitch, I want the best outcome for me and my kids. That is my mindset. R'ing is not going to happen in my sitch. It's ok.

I haven't decided yet what to do. I still have another day, this is maddening because I am very on the fence about just going to this guy, getting the BD, and then firing him; or just firing him now. I kind of like the first option as he's clearly my W's hand-selected "guy to help us through mediation". Mediation is about working together -- not one person driving the bus. This process will not be about my W controlling things. I will fight for what I think is best for me and my kids.

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Originally Posted by IronWill
U - yep I agree, cancel MC. but you knew I was going to say that already.

Stay strong smile

Haha yes I did know you would say that.

IW - this isn't about busting a D or Recon. This has transitioned into "what's best for me and my kids".

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How is going to MC under these conditions doing what is best for you and your kids? (not trying to be snarky, honestly wondering) I think a lot of the push here against doing it is that is smells like an example of trying to "nice" her back, which never works. Do whatever you feel is best, just take the time to examine your motivations.


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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by IronWill
U - yep I agree, cancel MC. but you knew I was going to say that already.

Stay strong smile

Haha yes I did know you would say that.

IW - this isn't about busting a D or Recon. This has transitioned into "what's best for me and my kids".


U - i know I sound like a broken record here. you're going to do what you feel is best. Just know that BD is hard enough without a 3rd party in the peanut gallery providing commentary and helpful questions such as "and how does that make you feel?"

Forget DB or R for a minute.

Its gonna hurt you a lot.

That's why im suggesting to cancel.

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OK unanimous feedback here. I love the push back and forcing me to challenge my thinking.

Let me summarize some of the reasons I have heard not to go, and why I’m still considering going:

1. BD in front of 3rd party, “ganging up”

Best case: I go, I get the BD. I say, “I don’t want this, I understand you want it, I won’t stand in your way.” I leave and fire the MC. No ganging up.

Worst case: I can see the scenario where this goes south. W may start MC acting as if she might want to work on the MR, we dive into hurt and issues, then things take a turn to BD. That would be worse. In this case, I plan to keep a level head and have her affirm her intentions in the M. I will not defend, explain, beg, plead, etc. No talk about the letters, the car, whatever, until she affirms her intentions. If she doesn’t, I will walk.

Also regarding ganging up... this MC works as a neutral party in mediation. As much as it irritates me to go to essentially a D guru, I would have to bet he is going to be as neutral as possible, probably more so than an actual MC who would work on M repair. He could not stay in business if both sides did not feel treated equally. My concern is not neutrality, it is just the false pretense of going in the first place. It’s not his fault, it’s my W’s.

2. I am fishing for R options

I assure you this is not the case. I do not foresee a future with this woman as my wife.

3. She has already told me unofficially

Disagree. Until she tells me we are still putting on the act of being M’d. Put another way, she could still claim “But I never said I wanted a D!!”

4. No effect on my kids either way
“Daddy turned down counseling” for one. Secondly, our family summer plans are completely up in the air b/c my W won’t come out and say it. I know this one shouldn’t depend on BD but if I get the BD I’m going to plan a week off with my kids, just like my W has been doing several times in the past few months on her own.

Listen I know BD will be tough. Let me tell you.. in April, before I found this forum, and I came back from business travel and my family was gone for a week... I was bawling my eyes out. I was a wreck. I wanted to write 1000 more letters. I thought divorce was a death sentence. I thought I had no hope. I lost 10 pounds - it doesn’t sound like much but I am skinny - I am at my high school weight and I am 40. It is unhealthy. I couldn’t function at work. I had no friends to rely on. Not being told ILY for months. No affection, no concern about my interest or well-being.

Of course I’m not prepared for BD but I’m more fortunate than most here in that I’ve had months to steel myself. How can you ever be fully ready?

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U, I am so sorry you are going through this agony. I pray that God gives us both peace, strength and love.


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U, it sounds like you are prepared to get BD'd and you understand what you are probably walking into, so go ahead. If you get BD'd then at least it's all out in the open and you know what you're up against. I would suggest not agreeing to anything on the spot. If your W starts throwing out S or D terms then just say "I have a lot to process and am not prepared to discuss any decisions right now". Good luck, stay strong!


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Thanks Destroyd

AS - absolutely. Once I get the BD I say my little piece and I leave. I think I deserve some time and space after the months of limbo!

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I sense myself slipping into some passive aggressive behavior lately and could use some advice how to snap out of it.

I am bitter and yes resentful and a bit angry. I’m okay having those feelings but need to disconnect them from my behavior and words.

Example: I have an appt this morning. W 2 months ago lied about an appt time and I think she saw a L. So today she asked what time is my appointment and I said, “I don’t know might be (the real time) or (the real time plus 45 minutes).” I said it out of frustration about her lies. It was both harmless and stupid.

She didn’t notice but I recognize it was just a passive aggressive attitude which I want to check. I don’t want this permeating any relationship I have no matter how strained. It seeps through and can really poison things.

The only thing that helps me is to look at my W with empathy. But I want to maintain my detachment so it is a tricky balance.

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Good on you for picking up and trying to check the passive aggressiveness. That is never helpful. Remember that you can't control her or necessarily the situation, but you can control your own responses. It's normal to be angry about the situation, you just need to find the right place-time to let that anger out, which is not anywhere near her. Don't deny the emotions, but don't let them control you either. They will pass.

That said, I think the fact that you can't speak openly about the fact that you know BD is coming and that she wants a D naturally pushes these things down and they are going to keep coming up until you can openly talk with her about the reality of the situation. I give you much credit for your patience. I pushed and had that talk with my EW right away and moved out the next day because I couldn't handle living in that limbo. You are much more in control of your emotions.

You are doing great!


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Originally Posted by unchien
OK unanimous feedback here. I love the push back and forcing me to challenge my thinking.


Not unanimous because I was a lone dissenting voice here lol. I agree with the reasons everyone has mentioned here for canceling MC. But I having been reading your posts from the beginning and I just feel like you will be better off out of limbo even if the BD is painful. I see you hurting thinking of a 100 possibilities and I am hoping the MC sessions narrows it down to a few paths forward.. This will really help you with your DB.

I could be wrong but if I were in your position I would make the decision you are making. I recognize it could be the wrong decision since the vets have more experience but limbo is hard and in my sitch I felt getting out of limbo helped me keep moving forward for myself even if my MR went backward.

Originally Posted by unchien


Of course I’m not prepared for BD but I’m more fortunate than most here in that I’ve had months to steel myself. How can you ever be fully ready?


You have an advantage most of us did not. You had time to mentally prepare yourself. Will be praying it goes well for you

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Originally Posted by Davide
Good on you for picking up and trying to check the passive aggressiveness. That is never helpful. Remember that you can't control her or necessarily the situation, but you can control your own responses. It's normal to be angry about the situation, you just need to find the right place-time to let that anger out, which is not anywhere near her. Don't deny the emotions, but don't let them control you either. They will pass.

That said, I think the fact that you can't speak openly about the fact that you know BD is coming and that she wants a D naturally pushes these things down and they are going to keep coming up until you can openly talk with her about the reality of the situation. I give you much credit for your patience. I pushed and had that talk with my EW right away and moved out the next day because I couldn't handle living in that limbo. You are much more in control of your emotions.

You are doing great!

Thanks Davide - I was reading through your sitch history last night. I really admired your personal growth. It seems to me like you became really in touch with your emotions and internal experiences, which helped you then make decisions in accordance with your values. You seem very level-headed and balanced.

Honestly just understanding and starting to label my emotions ("I'm feeling angry right now, interesting, I don't need to act upon it, I can just sit and be with it") is helping alot.

My W and I have been exchanging e-mails with my S7's school about his situation next year. Last night my W jumped the gun and asked the school to modify something that we had not discussed together yet. In the past I would have either (a) let it go unmentioned; or (b) said something passive-aggressively. Instead last night I just said, "Although I agree with your e-mail, I would have liked to discuss this together beforehand." She tried to brush it off but did give me a "sorry".

I wouldn't say I am necessarily patient. When I had the unofficial "BD" in March I pulled the car over on the side of the road and scared the hell out of my W. Then I wrote 3 lengthy apology letters which probably further scared her. I also have 3 kids to consider. My fear of my W acting out of fear helped me be patient. Now I am more level-headed.

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I have a different take on the being 'in limbo' in this particular context. As far as I can see, there really is no limbo because the intentions of the W are very clear. If you want the 'actual' BD to happen, then that is your preference at this point. You can get out of this stage by taking control of your life and moving forward regardless of what W wants to do. This is a rare case where the LBS has the opportunity to tackle BD head on and not after the fact.

From a character point of view - do you want to be with someone who can't even articulate what they're thinking without having a third party manhandle the situation? Clearly communication is broken down and if you're not thinking about what you want from a partner to have a good relationship, then you're going to feel stuck.

Does your W have the character traits that you would want in a partner? If not, what would be required on her end? You know what's required on your end, I hope.

There was a poster here called Txhubby. His W was blatantly disrespecting him and he wallowed for 2 years. And then he woke up one day and said he's not going to take any of it. He shut the hell up, took control of his life - went dark as much as he could, started improving his health, got a promotion at work, and became the man he wanted to be. All whilst still living in the same house as his W. He pretty much stopped giving a f#$k. Guess what happened - his W had a meltdown, and I mean a full on tantrum where she was flailing on the floor because she couldn't deal with how strong, resilient, and amazing Tx had gotten. They were able to salvage their M at that point because she became remorseful, apologetic, humble, and gave up all entitlement. He thought long and hard about working at the MR at that point and he had his reasons to try and give it a shot.

But all of this happened because he stopped giving a f#$k. And that is the kinda attitude that needs to be taken, whether BD or pre-BD in this case. Limbo is self-imposed and you have the power to decide when to end it.


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Originally Posted by MLCxH
Originally Posted by unchien
OK unanimous feedback here. I love the push back and forcing me to challenge my thinking.


Not unanimous because I was a lone dissenting voice here lol. I agree with the reasons everyone has mentioned here for canceling MC. But I having been reading your posts from the beginning and I just feel like you will be better off out of limbo even if the BD is painful. I see you hurting thinking of a 100 possibilities and I am hoping the MC sessions narrows it down to a few paths forward.. This will really help you with your DB.

I could be wrong but if I were in your position I would make the decision you are making. I recognize it could be the wrong decision since the vets have more experience but limbo is hard and in my sitch I felt getting out of limbo helped me keep moving forward for myself even if my MR went backward.

Originally Posted by unchien


Of course I’m not prepared for BD but I’m more fortunate than most here in that I’ve had months to steel myself. How can you ever be fully ready?


You have an advantage most of us did not. You had time to mentally prepare yourself. Will be praying it goes well for you

Thanks MLCxH - I feel like I am in a good place and ready to proceed. I didn't mean to slight you by calling the feedback "Unanimous" either, it was great to hear so many voices so quickly with feedback.

In all honesty I could probably continue to stay in limbo for awhile. One of my primary motivators to move ahead is my kids. It is summertime, if we are going to S/D I would like to plan some time alone with them. Of course I could do this anyways, but for example I wouldn't normally take a week of vacation from work to take a trip with them.

My second motivator is that I no longer recognize my W as someone I want to spend my life with. Not the current version. I'm not racing over to the courthouse to file papers, but I also feel a complete lack of emotional support from her. That is not grounds for a healthy M, nor do I want my kids to experience that.

I have no idea what to expect in this MC round. Everyone here knows I over-analyze. I can start listing all the scenarios down, they do run in my head, but the point is: I am comfortable that I can handle any situation. I have an exit plan if I need it. I will not over-expose myself and become vulnerable. Other than that, I'm there to listen. If I need time to think of how to respond, it can wait for future MC sessions.

I've always felt uncomfortable in situations involving conflict. Over the years I became much more comfortable in workplace situations. At work, I can now approach any situation without needing a script ahead of time. I am calm and confident that I can handle any kind of situation. My job requires a lot of conflict de-escalation, getting people to work together and find a common solution. I really enjoy it actually. It is a liberating feeling not to worry. I hope to get to that point in my personal relationships at some point..

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Maika - You are one of my favorite posters. I am grinning ear to ear, this post for some reason resonated so much that it made my day.

Originally Posted by Maika
From a character point of view - do you want to be with someone who can't even articulate what they're thinking without having a third party manhandle the situation? Clearly communication is broken down and if you're not thinking about what you want from a partner to have a good relationship, then you're going to feel stuck.

Exactly. Communication is fundamental to a relationship.

For awhile I thought I was the problem. Abusers often claim communication is the issue in their relationship. I think things were blown out of proportion.

Regardless, if we can't communicate better, this MR is dead. In fact, we are going to need counseling just to communicate better for co-parenting purposes. I will insist on that.

Originally Posted by Maika
Does your W have the character traits that you would want in a partner? If not, what would be required on her end? You know what's required on your end, I hope.

I also think a lot about this.

It's hard not to think about "what I want in a partner" without listing the deficiencies in my current MR. But here goes:

- Self-differentiation: Encourage each other to GAL. Enjoy each other's individual spirit and goals and needs. This is critical to avoid the "anxious-avoidant" pursuer-distance dance of my current R.

- Communication / Conflict resolution: Be willing to understand each other's POV. Even if we disagree. When we sense conflict, WORK ON IT. Provide both positive and negative feedback.

- LL: Mine is PT. I will speak whatever my partner's LL is. But PT has to be there for me.

- Dedicate time together - this is something I repeatedly brought up with my W but things never changed. Life was always "too busy" but there was plenty of time to watch crap TV 3 nights a week.

- Attraction is self-evident.

What I need to work on: NGS, clearly stating my own needs, feeling emotionally balanced on my own (not needing another person to reassure me), not being reactive to my partner's moods, GAL.

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Looks like a good list. The more and more I go deeper into this process, what I have found that the most precious thing to me is clarity - about myself, about partnerships, about my professional career, about relationships etc. The more you can get towards that clarity in every area and develop emotional fitness and self-awareness, you're way ahead in the pack.

Appreciate the kind words. Like many here, I've been through the fire and come out the other side better and stronger. If I can impart what I have learned so that others may not make the same mistakes or missteps as me in this process, I am happy to do so.


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Good luck today Uni. Stay strong

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Maika,

Clarity. Exactly. The word of the day for me.

The trick is in achieving it. I am strangely grateful for my situation, because I think I would have never otherwise been fire-tested enough to reach the clarity I have today, let alone where I hope to be 2 years from now.

Tonight is MC with the mediation guy. I have a general plan going in. I have 2 scripts, one for my stance (We are in limbo and drifting apart) and one to respond if she says she wants a divorce.

But I have my worries... you all know me smile Here goes...

What worries me most is if W is unclear, or if the direction of MC is unclear, and we start talking about all the problems and issues in our MR. This could easily divert into "Here's all of UC's issues" territory. I first need to know my W's stance. Yes this is pressure. It's time for some clarity.

Why am I so concerned about over-sharing? Why make myself vulnerable with someone who has shut down communication for so long? I don't want to set the tone that I am going to bend over during either the D process, or even the R process should that happen. I think it's important to show my W that I am not going to be a push-over regardless of what happens. And just to be clear, I am hoping for neither D or R -- I just want clarity.

What else worries me? W may come with a script. "You know honey, I love you, but I feel...." This reminds me of an old Far Side cartoon where all the dog (in this case, UC) hears is: "Blah blah blah divorce blah blah blah". I don't need or want to hear her reasons for D. She can share those with her IC. It will not help my "healing" process. I wrote letters sharing my feelings and she didn't even acknowledge receipt! I don't know, maybe I am angry. It just feels offensive that she would choose to close herself off for 6 months and then give me some "gift" of healing which is really all about her "journey" or "process". I sound like I have no empathy -- that is not true. I do feel for my W, it must be really hard to exit a M with 3 little kids, it must be hard to handle the emotions involved on her side. I'm sure she feels guilty at times. But... I need more self-compassion than I have granted myself before. Part of that is protecting myself from an emotional ambush.

OK back to the main thread...What else? How about the MC saying "And how does that make you feel UC?" Honestly, I will be sharing no feelings (other than my 2 scripts) until I hear my W's stance on our MR. Maybe I would just say, "I feel uncertain about W's position on our MR."

Final one: If I hear the BD and deliver my script, I plan to walk out and never come back to this counselor. Is that being passive-aggressive? He may be really good at mediation -- but the fact my W steered MC to this guy is frustrating. I feel like she is controlling the situation to meet her needs (even if she thinks this is best for "both of us"). Or maybe I'm being immature -- I obviously know our M is for all intents and purposes over, she must have a clue that I know that, so am I stomping out like an infant here? I don't know - playing this whole game of "UC doesn't have a clue that his W has been planning an exit for months" hurts me MORE than the actual separation itself. Her comments in the past that "Maybe we could talk in front of UC's IC" instead of just sitting and talking like adults...

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Originally Posted by unchien
Maika,

Clarity. Exactly. The word of the day for me.

The trick is in achieving it. I am strangely grateful for my situation, because I think I would have never otherwise been fire-tested enough to reach the clarity I have today, let alone where I hope to be 2 years from now.

Tonight is MC with the mediation guy. I have a general plan going in. I have 2 scripts, one for my stance (We are in limbo and drifting apart) and one to respond if she says she wants a divorce.

But I have my worries... you all know me smile Here goes...

What worries me most is if W is unclear, or if the direction of MC is unclear, and we start talking about all the problems and issues in our MR. This could easily divert into "Here's all of UC's issues" territory. I first need to know my W's stance. Yes this is pressure. It's time for some clarity.

Why am I so concerned about over-sharing? Why make myself vulnerable with someone who has shut down communication for so long? I don't want to set the tone that I am going to bend over during either the D process, or even the R process should that happen. I think it's important to show my W that I am not going to be a push-over regardless of what happens. And just to be clear, I am hoping for neither D or R -- I just want clarity.

What else worries me? W may come with a script. "You know honey, I love you, but I feel...." This reminds me of an old Far Side cartoon where all the dog (in this case, UC) hears is: "Blah blah blah divorce blah blah blah". I don't need or want to hear her reasons for D. She can share those with her IC. It will not help my "healing" process. I wrote letters sharing my feelings and she didn't even acknowledge receipt! I don't know, maybe I am angry. It just feels offensive that she would choose to close herself off for 6 months and then give me some "gift" of healing which is really all about her "journey" or "process". I sound like I have no empathy -- that is not true. I do feel for my W, it must be really hard to exit a M with 3 little kids, it must be hard to handle the emotions involved on her side. I'm sure she feels guilty at times. But... I need more self-compassion than I have granted myself before. Part of that is protecting myself from an emotional ambush.

OK back to the main thread...What else? How about the MC saying "And how does that make you feel UC?" Honestly, I will be sharing no feelings (other than my 2 scripts) until I hear my W's stance on our MR. Maybe I would just say, "I feel uncertain about W's position on our MR."

Final one: If I hear the BD and deliver my script, I plan to walk out and never come back to this counselor. Is that being passive-aggressive? He may be really good at mediation -- but the fact my W steered MC to this guy is frustrating. I feel like she is controlling the situation to meet her needs (even if she thinks this is best for "both of us"). Or maybe I'm being immature -- I obviously know our M is for all intents and purposes over, she must have a clue that I know that, so am I stomping out like an infant here? I don't know - playing this whole game of "UC doesn't have a clue that his W has been planning an exit for months" hurts me MORE than the actual separation itself. Her comments in the past that "Maybe we could talk in front of UC's IC" instead of just sitting and talking like adults...


Good luck today, U. Since MC is happening, I would do a lot more listening than talking. Maybe like 85 percent to 15 percent. I would keep my answers simple and direct. I would plan just a very few things to say, points I want to make. But the rest is out of your control, so try to let it go.

Stay strong smile

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Originally Posted by IronWill
Good luck today, U. Since MC is happening, I would do a lot more listening than talking. Maybe like 85 percent to 15 percent.


Exactly what I was going to say. Just listen and validate. If you get asked direct questions by W or the MC then answer them as briefly as possible. Let W do all the talking.

Originally Posted by unchien
Final one: If I hear the BD and deliver my script, I plan to walk out and never come back to this counselor. Is that being passive-aggressive?


No I don't think so. If your W tries to get you to go back just tell her you need time to process everything. She's been preparing for BD for months or even years. It would be unreasonable of her to expect you to rush through S and or D given that. And I think it would be fine to tell her that.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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unchien Offline OP
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Thanks AS and IW -

I think it is a good point that, should the BD happen today (or at any time), I should ask for space and time to process everything. No need to rush. I may have the benefit of knowing ahead of time this is coming, but I can tell even from the little emotional ripples I feel today that this is still going to be a massive gut-punch when it does come.

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Stay strong my friend!

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Starting a new thread in anticipation of my next update:

Expecting BD soon #5

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