Persistent Endurance (Part 4)

[curtis7]

Link to Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771
Link to Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502
Link to Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845184

Summary to date:
W was unhappy in 2018 and probably a few years earlier about her lack of career advancement, responsibilities of being a mother and wife, and lack of connection in our MR. She became involved in an EA with a co-worker in August. She was going to an IC without my knowledge and came to the determination that I was the cause of her unhappiness. BD and IHS in November. I made all of the classic mistakes of begging, pleading, doing all the chores, etc. She became obsessed with her physical appearance. Spending money on facial treatments, anti-aging creams, manicures, pedicures, etc. In November, she was seduced by a 25 year old pickup artist (OM1) at a downtown bar one night and had a PA a couple weeks later which evolved into a limerant relationship. W went deeply underground with her smartphone when I found out and confronted. She has experienced the highest of highs when OM contacts her and the lowest of lows when ignored. She has transferred the limerance to OM2/3 and had at least a second PA. OM1 may still be in contact with her as well. W has distanced herself from anyone of strong moral character and primarily interacts with a recently divorced woman that became her BFF last year. She has been turned on to a GGW lifestyle with sexting, going out more often, and trolling for and probably hooking up with guys on dating apps. She blatantly would text OM and divorced BFF for hours in front of me the last 2 months living together prior to physical separation. W bought her own house and moved out in early April and has been living there for the past 8 weeks. We have arranged 50/50 custody of our kids, S8 and D4, rotating every few days.

I would characterize myself of experiencing PTSD symptoms after BD/PA discovery for about 4 months. Way too much pursuit, pressure, and R talk. I became obsessed with snooping and trying to identify and over-analyze everything that went wrong in our MR that led us to this state. In doing so, I pushed her farther and farther away. I've heard just about every WW catch phrase from her along with way. She has re-written our MR history and focuses on all the negatives. I've been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching since late February. Contact right now is like a business relationship, mostly limited to co-parenting and logistics. I confronted her in early May about no longer living in an open marriage. Her response was basically laughter and she said if you want a divorce, then she's all for it. That night she sent me an email requesting that I gather all of my financial records and decide what items I want to keep by the end of May. She hasn't mentioned it since, and it remains to be seen whether she will bring it up in the next few days.

I don't know if she is still engaged in EAs/PAs with OM, but I assume she is. When we do interact, she generally treats me nice, but that could be because her horse is at our marital home and I help take care of it while she has free reign to come and ride it when she pleases.

I've received a ton of great advice from this board. Some of which I've had a hard time following explicitly. I am not fully detached and continue to be disrespected by my WW on occasion. I do have a hard time employing tough love, it's just not in my nature. My focus right now is to leave her alone as much as possible and give her Time and Space. My ultimate goal is to attract her back to the point she is willing to work on our issues and R and we enjoy a new MR that gives us both the happiness we want.

[curtis7]

What I did mean was that perhaps taking enjoyment in contact with someone who you knew in the moment didn't want to give it was something to do a real 180 on.

Allison, this is an easy 180, when the botched hug was the only physical contact in 6 months, at that rate it won’t be a problem not repeating a similar mistake.

I admire the way you've taken some really strong feedback on board, Curtis. I know how hard it is.

Yes, I’ve had my share of 2x4’s in the short time on the board. However, when we don’t heed the advice of the vets or don’t seek guidance prior to engaging WAS with words or actions, then we learn by experience, and often the hard way.

In my marriage, it has more often been the other way around - with me wanting physical affection and touch and intimacy, and reacting with gracelessness when it has not been available / on offer.

Wow, I would think most men couldn’t get enough of a W that wants physical affection and touch without having to ask for it all the time. You seem like a rarity.

[curtis7]

For a woman, it doesn't matter how long it has been........if she doesn't feel the attraction, it's more simple for her just to buy a vibrator. Unless the W's primary love language is physical touch, then I suspect the longer periods of time the couple has no sex while living together.....the less she will desire him (considering there are no health issues with one of them). Here's the thing, if her H has not spoken in her love language, and her emotional needs weren't met.......then eventually, she's going to feel neglected, hurt and resentful. If it continues, those negative feelings will breed disrespectful feelings for her H. And once her respect starts dropping......her attraction/desire level is going to drop as well. The longer the disrespect continues, the less she'll want him. Plus, she eventually puts herself at risk for some OM who comes along as speaks her LL.

My W took the LL quiz about a month after BD and shared the results with me:
Acts of Service (8)
Quality Time (7)
Words of Affirmation (7)
Physical Touch (6)
Receiving Gifts (2)
Reflecting back on our MR in recent years, I suspect my W felt that my Acts of Service were not given freely and that I expected something in return. Quality Time was lacking as the kids have been the priority and the R was routine especially since D4 was born. Words of Affirmation also was not one of my strong suits, but I’ve done a 180 in this area post-BD. Physical Touch has been there, at least on my side. I always made myself available for her as this is my primary LL and to me she is the most attractive woman in the world and I let her know that often.

She did become vulnerable to OM, but I don’t see how they can speak her LL of A of S. The two OM are 25 year olds (she’s 38), sure they may have met her needs for QT, W of A, and PT, but it seems she is more enamored with the attention and feeling younger being wanted by these boys.

I maintain that waywardness is a choice. Nobody forces someone to be wayward. At the same time, I feel many H's are feeling your pain, b/c they just didn't just didn't know what they didn't know.

Yes, it’s sad really that so many of us LBH’s were completely oblivious prior to BD. I never in a million years thought she was so unhappy to want a D. The perfect storm was brewing in the background. I didn’t make her feel appreciated, resentment grew, she went to IC without my knowledge, she received attention from a co-worker in an EA, and BFF got divorced giving my W courage to take action. In retrospect, it’s a shame that I wasn’t connected to her enough to see it and feel the deterioration.

It’s true that we don’t know what we don’t know. I sometimes use a similar phrase at work when evaluating the risk of changing something in a product that is working fine. I say there are unknown unknowns. Meaning you account for all the risks that you can identify; however, those may pale in comparison to an unknown risk that you have not identified which could have dire consequences.

Men always see this as rejection, and often times a W will go through the sex act, just to live with him. Otherwise, he gets an attitude, and then she's going to get one.....and you have bedroom problems. As a woman, I try to see how men take it so personally. But I'm going to go to another level and tell you men that sometimes, we women just get tired of hearing how you feel so rejected b/c we didn't want to have sex. Here's how the R starts to deteriorate, b/c for mentally well women who were in love when they M (not one with a sense of entitlement, a bully, etc.) there came a point where she felt neglected (rejected) and devalued (rejected), too. She tries to push this feeling down, but it is not resolved. It turns to resentment, and goes from there.

Sandi, you nailed this one, no pun intended. I think she did feel neglected and devalued and held most of it within. When she did attempt to raise her concerns the message was lost either from me not listening or in the way it was communicated.

So, if her heart is cold, then he needs to start by commanding respect under his own roof and see if it brings positive results. Rather than sulk for a days, he should get busy examining how he has allowed her to show disrespect to him. Now, notice I didn't say she "felt" disrespect, but showed it. B/c if she takes advantages of his nice-guy ways (and she will), that just one little example of disrespect. It's his fault if he ignores it and doesn't address it.

Think back about all the times your W took advantage of your good nature. How many times did you think it would soften her heart if you gave in and did her work....or whatever she was after. A woman will not respect the person she can take advantage of.......especially her spouse.

Nothing has seemingly worked so far. Leading with love and trying to nice her back hasn’t helped break her out of the fog. I’m a bit torn on this because she has stated that I was a prick in the MR. Treating her right, respecting and honoring her was another 180.

I do maintain a fear of her filing, because if the D is finalized, then I think that would be it and I would move on for good. The fear is taking a hard stance and commanding respect will cause her to take swift steps to end the MR. Who knows, maybe that’s better than the slow death of limbo. I’m conflicted on taking action to gain respect versus giving her time and space right now. I just feel our R is at a fragile point and there is some hope of reconnection if she sees that the grass is not greener in her separation home and how these OM are using her.

So if you recognize that you enable her bad behavior, doesn't it make sense to stop the pattern? Do you feel you have allowed her bad behavior for so long, that you don't know how to stop it at this point? You can stop doing her favors. That would be a starting point. Stop rescuing her.

Sure does make sense. I know how to stop. I haven’t been strong enough to stand up against her bad behavior and rescue herself from her wayward choices.

Curtis, your children should never witness their father being disrespected, and him do nothing about it.

S8 and D4 are two very intelligent and intuitive children. They may not understand the disrespect right now. They do see the emotional toll my sitch has taken on me, I’ve broken down in tears with them a few times. I don’t want this to have long lasting effects that results in them going to IC or repeating history with struggling MR’s of their own.

If you use a poor choice of words with our bunch......my the Lord have mercy on your soul, b/c we are going to spot it.

No doubt, this is for certain. I really need to proofread some of my posts a few times and think about how they could be interpreted. The perils of typing these long responses on a 5” smartphone display...

You have been very good, as Alison pointed out, to take some tough responses. (And, I have been the toughest.) I hope you'll read our posts as if gathering information to grow and have a better relationship with your W, or whatever woman is in your future.

I don’t know, LH has been awfully tough too. In fact, R2C, AS, and Steve have all doled out some tough responses. They were warranted and I’m learning. I have grown so much in being able to understand what it takes to have a healthy relationship. Thanks Sandi!

[AlisonUK]

Yes, I did feel like a rarity. I've come to accept that my behaviour at the time wasn't attractive, and that men aren't machines and have a need for safety and respect and care too. But at the time - and still, to be honest - it did make me feel rejected and abandoned like nothing else in the world has the power to do. So I do get it.

[LH19]

C,

We're tough on you because we a trying to help and because we have seen so many situations (hundreds, Sandi probably thousands) we have the guidelines to best navigate these situations.

Sometimes I'm concerned about your mental state that's why I think you should be in IC.

If you don't want to do the tough love approach then do the get your own life approach. When she is over you and the kids are out the door. The only contact you have is about the kids. It will help you detach.

You're going to need to detach but I think this is going to drag on for a really long time.

[curtis7]

Catching up on some journaling...

I had my big 40th birthday bash on Saturday night. Three of the moms from my son’s baseball team did all of the planning, coordination, and setup. They went all out, balloons, decorations, appetizers, taco bar dinner, and a custom vanilla cream cake dressed up with fondant to look like a bottle of Johnnie Walker Black Label. I just supplied the drinks, music, and a super clean house that I worked on in the days leading up to the event. Lots of lively conversation and great fun was had by all. There was one gag gift that was an inflatable walker adorned with several phrases about getting old and being over the hill.

There were about 20 friends at the party, but all couples. I did find myself scanning the crowd a few times dwelling on the fact that I was the only one alone and felt lonely and depressed briefly. I tried to block those thoughts by accepting this is the choice I’ve made for now in standing for my MR. It didn’t last long as I received plenty of attention all night and felt very appreciated. I am fortunate to have good friends that are caring, kind-hearted, generous, and sympathize with what I’m going through. The party was a rousing success with a ton of leftovers.

W brought kids over Sunday morning. D4 found the big 4-0 balloons and inflatable Walker and brought them out to the garage. W saw them and had a chuckle at the walker, so she found out I had a party, but didn’t ask any questions about it. Later, I was talking with S8 about his past couple days with his mom and he told me that D4 told her “you know dad loves you.” He said W responded “I love him too, but not the same way.” Sounds like a classic ILYBINILWY to me.

On Memorial Day, W came over to ride her horse. I was with the kids in the pool and W came onto the pool deck. She was clearly checking out the new patio furniture sets and rolling ice chest I had bought for the party. She was trying not to show emotion of like or dislike on the changes I’ve made in the pool area, but it did seem to pique her interest. She asked if she could have a beer from the ice chest, I said sure, if you like. Then she played frisbee across the pool with S8 for about 20 minutes before the horse ride.

Yesterday, W stayed at her separation house with the kids as they are out of school this week and summer camps haven’t started. She texted asking if I could watch the kids after work while she rides her horse. I was planning to go play volleyball and offered to take them as other kids are there that they enjoy playing with. I texted her that they needed to be ready to go by 6:30 and that they could swim in the pool beforehand. When I got home from work, W was laying out by the pool in a bikini, then quickly scurried off to the bathroom to change into her horse attire. The kids both wanted to trot around on the horse before we left. I waited and was friendly in small talk with W. I am getting a vibe that she is a bit warmer towards me occasionally. I’m not going to read much into it and keep maintaining my distance.

I really need to move on finalizing the itinerary for my trip to California with the kids in a few weeks. Flights and rental car are booked, still working on selecting hotels up and down the pacific coast. It’s going to be a wonderful time to bond with them, but expensive. Worth it though!

[LH19]

LH smacks his forehead!

[curtis7]

LH smacks his forehead!

Lol, I know, I know. The cake eating with the horse, free beer, pool time, watching the kids for her, being strung along by playing nice...favors...and no tough love.

[sandi2]

I hope with books, like the LL will start breaking tearing some walls down. I used every thing I knew how to explain to my H what I needed from him. He wouldn't say anything until I finished, and his answer was to have more sex and everything would be fine. He just didn't get it.

Wow, I would think most men couldn’t get enough of a W that wants physical affection and touch without having to ask for it all the time.

If all women's LL was PT.......nobody would ever get anything done.

You can identify with that need for PT. Your W's number one LL or emotional need is just as valuable to her, and need-worthy as your PT. Some may argue and say sex or PT is more important, but not if it's not her LL. The way you feel loved is through PT. The way she feels loved is through another avenue. PT is a demonstration of how you feel loved. If you want to demonstrate how much she is loved, then speak in the language she recognizes.

Reflecting back on our MR in recent years, I suspect my W felt that my Acts of Service were not given freely and that I expected something in return.

I think most women can tell when her H is buttering her up for sex. Even if you are speaking her LL, you've got to keep a loving attitude.....or she'll see it as manipulative, and it is if you're just trying to get something in return. Whatever language, love should be demonstrated, and should come from the heart.

Quality Time was lacking as the kids have been the priority and the R was routine especially since D4 was born.

How do you picture quality time with your W?

Words of Affirmation also was not one of my strong suits, but I’ve done a 180 in this area post-BD.

Good for you! We all have to learn in the areas that are not our strong suits.

She did become vulnerable to OM, but I don’t see how they can speak her LL of A of S. The two OM are 25 year olds (she’s 38), sure they may have met her needs for QT, W of A, and PT, but it seems she is more enamored with the attention and feeling younger being wanted by these boys.

I When she has gone without emotional needs being met by her husband, and the resentment and disrespect builds until she no longer feels those "in-love" emotions, then she's not going to feel very good about herself. She probably feels depressed and thinks she's getting older, less attractive, etc. She craves for those needs to be met, just like you crave sex! So, it's like when a man goes forever in a SSM, and he starts getting attention from a hottie co-worker. He may not have sex with the hottie right off the bat.......but if she keeps pursuing, and he's not getting it at home......or feels ignored at home........it may require a lot of strength for him to turn the hottie away. Yes, morals should come into play, but that's just not always the case when a human being goes for a long time with emotional needs ignored. I'm not making excuses for your W or anyone who steps outside the MR to get emotional needs met by another person. I'm just trying to explain that these guys are not her husband. They are substitutes who are playing on her EN. Pick up artists aren't looking for a stable relationship with a woman who is 38 and already has kids...... they are looking for a woman who will have sex with them.

[Destroyd]

Sandi,

If you wife has already dropped the bomb, can using the love languages still help?