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Curtis I wrote out a long post I deleted because it was too harsh and I'm probably the harshest poster here.


You too, LH19? I delete posts all the time, b/c I think they are too harsh. frown

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Well Curtis, you know you messed up, but what concerns me is that you don't care that you messed up. I'm not going to beat you up about it, but I will point out a few places simply b/c you didn't seem to have a clue about how she tried to show you she wasn't into what you were doing.

Call me crazy, but I don't see it very manly to ask your WW for a hug. Neither do I agree that a LBH way to his WW's heart is by showing his vulnerability to her. Just isn't what makes her go for him.

The minute you placed your hand in her hair and behind her neck, she immediately knew you were going to make a move she didn't welcome. How do I know? B/c touching her hair and putting your hand behind her neck are intimate touches. It instantly put her on guard. That's why she said, "What are you doing?"

Quote
H: Can I have a hug?
W: Sure...did you have a good birthday?


Can you see how it makes you appear weak? If not, then you won't learn from it. A husband has to appear strong to the WW, not weak, not vulnerable, and not needy. If the H shows he is vulnerable, then she feels she has to be the stronger one......and that's not what women want in their MR. The W wants a H who is stronger than she is.

It seems she tried to be nice, while turning the direction she saw this going by distracting you. So, she brings up the subject of your birthday.

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H: It was different and it was hard...but I enjoyed the time with the kids (I placed my hand in her hair behind her head and gently pulled her towards me)


Were you trying to get her sympathy, while still moving in for more physical touch?

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H: What are you thinking? (after a few seconds and moving apart slightly with my arms still wrapped around her lower back)


Just bad all the way around.

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W: We’re not there yet.


Enough said! That is all the woman needed to say. Was the message received? You tell me.

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H: I understand, we miss you (while looking her in the eyes).


What is it you understood? That she didn't welcome the physical touching, or you prying into her thoughts?
When you saw she wasn't going along with you, is that when you decided to lay a big ole guilt trip on her?

Quote
W: Who’s we?
H: Me and the kids.
W: They get to see me.



Quote
H: You’re right they do. It’s late, you better go (still holding her in my arms and pulling her into me, she was not falling into me, I could tell it was not the time to press further, so I let her go)


When did you finally realize it was not the time to press further. Look Curtis, this is your W and you should be able to read her better than this. I get that her wayward mindset has thrown you, but come on. The second she asked what you were doing......you should have dropped her like a hot potato.

I said I wouldn't beat you up. So, this is me not beating you up, okay? Seriously, I want you to see what I'm trying to show you here. I don't think this interaction could be considered as her throwing you breadcrumbs.......not from my viewpoint, b/c at this particular time you were pursuing very strongly.......and told us you didn't care. Do you care that you'll have to work twice as hard to convince her she's lost you? Cause that's what it will take for her to even start to be interested.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted by neffer
Oh man, the last sentence of your post above is really hard to read. It kills the counterintuitive environment that you need to develop. Trust the process. And concerning W stick to believe nothing of what she says, as usual.

Anyway, the cycle up will come faster and with more energy each time.

Hi Nef, trust me, I don’t believe her words, they are empty, her actions show that. What do you mean by the cycle up?

Originally Posted by LH19
Curtis I wrote out a long post I deleted because it was too harsh and I'm probably the harshest poster here. You got to get stronger or this is going to end very badly for you. You have two boys who you have to teach not to be pushed around. Get into IC. Books and podcasts are not enough. You're very confused on what to do and you're not heeding the advice of the board and you need some guidance.

I have read number 5 on your list like ten times and every time I say WTF?

LH, I should caveat that numbers 1 and 5 were pre-BD.

I do appreciate the advice on the board and admit I have slipped up a few times reacting to emotions before vetting here. You’re right that I have to get stronger. W takes advantage of me regularly. Case in point, she’ll send me texts in the afternoon asking if I can feed her horse at night. I always do the favor. Then she goes to hang out with OM or divorced BFF. I’m enabling her bad behavior. My kids won’t be witnessing this indefinitely. She will have to make a choice. I deserve better treatment and to be loved.


Me:41 W:39 S:9 D:6 T:20 M:16
PA:8/22/18, BD:11/6/18
PA discovery & IHS:12/3/18, W moves:4/2/19
R’ville:9/27/19, I give D docs:3/1/20
W home:4/5/20 (due to CV-19), W NC w/OM:4/13/20 6/1/20
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Originally Posted by sandi2
Well Curtis, you know you messed up, but what concerns me is that you don't care that you messed up. I'm not going to beat you up about it, but I will point out a few places simply b/c you didn't seem to have a clue about how she tried to show you she wasn't into what you were doing.

Hi Sandi, I do care. I read her too. When I reacted to the impulse, moved in to hugged her, and she didn’t wrap her arms around me, that was a clear indication she wasn’t into it. I couldn’t figure out how to escape and prolonged the mistake.

Originally Posted by sandi2
The minute you placed your hand in her hair and behind her neck, she immediately knew you were going to make a move she didn't welcome. How do I know? B/c touching her hair and putting your hand behind her neck are intimate touches. It instantly put her on guard. That's why she said, "What are you doing?"

Yes, I could see it in her eyes. Almost slowly twitching back and forth with an air of fear. Not good and confirmed she has no interest in intimacy with me.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
H: Can I have a hug?
W: Sure...did you have a good birthday?
Can you see how it makes you appear weak? If not, then you won't learn from it. A husband has to appear strong to the WW, not weak, not vulnerable, and not needy. If the H shows he is vulnerable, then she feels she has to be the stronger one......and that's not what women want in their MR. The W wants a H who is stronger than she is.
Quote
H: It was different and it was hard...but I enjoyed the time with the kids (I placed my hand in her hair behind her head and gently pulled her towards me)

Were you trying to get her sympathy, while still moving in for more physical touch?

Yes, I suppose I was hoping she would soften in that moment. I hadn’t held her like that in over half a year and I thought she might feel something. She has been so reluctant to put herself in close proximity to me, I decided to give the opportunity. It’s so painful and really hurts that it didn’t elicit a positive response. I don’t know how LBS can tolerate rejection like this for years.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Quote
W: We’re not there yet.

Enough said! That is all the woman needed to say. Was the message received? You tell me.

Sure was, but I don’t think that’s the message I should receive and grasp. Her response indicates there is hope for us in the future. I’m told not to believe anything she says. I don’t get the feeling from her that there is any hope.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
H: I understand, we miss you (while looking her in the eyes).
What is it you understood? That she didn't welcome the physical touching, or you prying into her thoughts?
When you saw she wasn't going along with you, is that when you decided to lay a big ole guilt trip on her?
Quote
W: Who’s we?
H: Me and the kids.
W: They get to see me.

I understood that she wasn’t ready/didn’t want physical touch. It wasn’t intended to be a guilt trip. I wanted her to know that the door was open to come home.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I said I wouldn't beat you up. So, this is me not beating you up, okay? Seriously, I want you to see what I'm trying to show you here. I don't think this interaction could be considered as her throwing you breadcrumbs.......not from my viewpoint, b/c at this particular time you were pursuing very strongly.......and told us you didn't care. Do you care that you'll have to work twice as hard to convince her she's lost you? Cause that's what it will take for her to even start to be interested.

Sandi, I appreciate your insight as a former WW. Your perspective helps me understand what she is going through and how she responds to my words and actions. Patience is so difficult while in limbo with a WW. I realize this was strong pursuit. As I mentioned before, DB is about finding out what works and what doesn’t work. Chalk this one up on the doesn’t work side.


Me:41 W:39 S:9 D:6 T:20 M:16
PA:8/22/18, BD:11/6/18
PA discovery & IHS:12/3/18, W moves:4/2/19
R’ville:9/27/19, I give D docs:3/1/20
W home:4/5/20 (due to CV-19), W NC w/OM:4/13/20 6/1/20
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Originally Posted by curtis7

1) I am completely fulfilled mentally, emotionally, and physically with her.
2) I value my marriage vows and the promise I made to her.
3) I am in love with my best friend, she knew the darkest parts of me and loved me anyways.
4) I grew into an adult with her.
5) I am a better person because of her, she teaches me humility and how to love others.
6) I experienced passionate which later transformed into compassionate love with her.
7) I have an intimate bond with her and she will always be the most important woman in my life and I will always be the most important man in her life (ok, this one is mostly because of the kids)


Curtis, you are clearly a romantic at heart and I think that's great. But that list is filled with NEED, and you do not NEED someone else to have a complete and fulfilled life. Now you may WANT someone to share that life with and that is fine. But needing someone to "complete you" is extremely unhealthy.

I really do hope that in time your W comes to appreciate you again. But right here, right now, she doesn't. She doesn't want anything to do with you, and you have got to respect that. You clearly love your wife, so I am going to challenge you to present her the ultimate show of true love- let her go. Quit the pursuit, quit the physical touches, quit finding reasons to help her and constantly get yourself in front of her. Those things are all about what YOU want. If you love her then you will set YOUR needs aside and fulfill HER needs, and right now her greatest needs are TIME and SPACE away from you. Do you think you can do that?


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by curtis7

1) I am completely fulfilled mentally, emotionally, and physically with her.
2) I value my marriage vows and the promise I made to her.
3) I am in love with my best friend, she knew the darkest parts of me and loved me anyways.
4) I grew into an adult with her.
5) I am a better person because of her, she teaches me humility and how to love others.
6) I experienced passionate which later transformed into compassionate love with her.
7) I have an intimate bond with her and she will always be the most important woman in my life and I will always be the most important man in her life (ok, this one is mostly because of the kids)


Curtis, you are clearly a romantic at heart and I think that's great. But that list is filled with NEED, and you do not NEED someone else to have a complete and fulfilled life. Now you may WANT someone to share that life with and that is fine. But needing someone to "complete you" is extremely unhealthy.

I really do hope that in time your W comes to appreciate you again. But right here, right now, she doesn't. She doesn't want anything to do with you, and you have got to respect that. You clearly love your wife, so I am going to challenge you to present her the ultimate show of true love- let her go. Quit the pursuit, quit the physical touches, quit finding reasons to help her and constantly get yourself in front of her. Those things are all about what YOU want. If you love her then you will set YOUR needs aside and fulfill HER needs, and right now her greatest needs are TIME and SPACE away from you. Do you think you can do that?


TRUTH DART FROM AS!


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Curtis, we don't know each other and I haven't commented on your post before. But I wondered if a woman's POV here might be helpful to you? I don't know the history of your marriage, the way physical contact and affection played out between the two of you, how your intimate life was - anything like that. I don't know if your wife is a survivor of rape or CSA (many women are, and many women don't tell their husbands) but I can promise you this - the fact that you wanted physical contact with her, she didn't but seemed to go along with it anyway because she either felt sorry for you, or wanted to avoid the consequences - however minor - of upsetting you - and that you knew she wasn't up for this physical contact but went and took what you wanted and enjoyed it anyway - is very very sinister. Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it. I am putting this in a hard way but I think it is so important.

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I would echo what Alison said from a guy's perspective. I have struggled with much of the same types of issues in my own MR. I had a couple of rules: if she ever said no, that was the end of it. (That doesn't mean I didn't pout or whine or complain or get resentful, which also was not good, but I didn't PRESS her on it in the moment.) If she reluctantly said ok, but I sensed any sort of resistance, I would not continue either. (Again, not that I handled it well afterward.)

I am not sure if Alison is going at this from a legal standpoint, I certainly am not. I think there is a huge difference LEGALLY with a W doing her "wifely duties" out of obligation versus rape. I know some that tend to lean a little left on this topic and probably take a harder stand, which I would disagree with.

However, from an emotional standpoint this is VERY VERY important. As Alison said "Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it." Your W has to feel safe with you. Pressing her on it and her "giving in" might not have legal ramifications (and shouldn't), but emotionally she could put you in the category of a sexual abuser. And that obviously could have detrimental impacts on your relationship with her.

Further, guy to guy. Is that really that satisfying? I mean, at that point masturbation would be just as "satisfying". Not to get to explicit, but if she isn't into it she just becomes a hole to you anyway.


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Oh no - not a legal standpoint. I don't really want to get into that side of things anyway - as I didn't mean to even slightly imply that I thought Curtis was being rapey - I didn't mean that. What I did mean was that perhaps taking enjoyment in contact with someone who you knew in the moment didn't want to give it was something to do a real 180 on. As a woman, I've reluctantly gone along with all kinds of contact - from a hug to sexual intercourse - because I didn't feel like dealing with the consequences of hurting a man's feelings or making him feel rejected. I've never feared violence, but I have been worn down to the point of tears by sulking etc. It feels easier in the moment to let him have the hug (and just to be clear, I am not talking about my current H - who has many flaws but this is not one of them) but what grows in my heart in that moment is contempt. And contempt is the absolute kiss of death to respect, love, desire, friendship - every single scrap of the good stuff. It is THAT important.

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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Curtis, we don't know each other and I haven't commented on your post before. But I wondered if a woman's POV here might be helpful to you? I don't know the history of your marriage, the way physical contact and affection played out between the two of you, how your intimate life was - anything like that. I don't know if your wife is a survivor of rape or CSA (many women are, and many women don't tell their husbands) but I can promise you this - the fact that you wanted physical contact with her, she didn't but seemed to go along with it anyway because she either felt sorry for you, or wanted to avoid the consequences - however minor - of upsetting you - and that you knew she wasn't up for this physical contact but went and took what you wanted and enjoyed it anyway - is very very sinister. Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it. I am putting this in a hard way but I think it is so important.

Hi Allison, thanks for your feedback. There is no history of sexual abuse for my W that I’m aware of. All indications are that she went along with the hug as a way of being nice. Nothing was forced and she wasn’t held against her will. It was my attempt to connect and her response made it clear she is not interested in connecting right now.

Also, since I’ve stopped snooping and we are physically separated, I don’t know if she is still participating in PAs/EAs with OM. I assume she is based on recent history, but I don’t know for certain. The hug may may have been my temp check to find out if she had given that up.

Saying that I didn’t care was a poor choice of words. In hindsight, I think it was my way of rationalizing the rejection to myself. I do care about her feelings and certainly want them to be filled with more positive than negative feelings about me. Your POV follows R2C’s and Sandi’s. This point has been belabored. I regret attempting to hug her now had I been able to foresee that she wasn’t going to be receptive to it. Moving on from that mistake.

Originally Posted by Steve85
I would echo what Alison said from a guy's perspective. I have struggled with much of the same types of issues in my own MR. I had a couple of rules: if she ever said no, that was the end of it. (That doesn't mean I didn't pout or whine or complain or get resentful, which also was not good, but I didn't PRESS her on it in the moment.) If she reluctantly said ok, but I sensed any sort of resistance, I would not continue either. (Again, not that I handled it well afterward.)

However, from an emotional standpoint this is VERY VERY important. As Alison said "Love is patient and kind. Love is not about you getting what you want out of someone who does not want to give it." Your W has to feel safe with you. Pressing her on it and her "giving in" might not have legal ramifications (and shouldn't), but emotionally she could put you in the category of a sexual abuser. And that obviously could have detrimental impacts on your relationship with her.

Steve, sounds like we had some of the same behaviors. There was a period of time after our second child was born that she wasn’t in the mood as often as I was. No definitely meant no, but that didn’t stop me from hemming and hawing about it to make her feel guilty. But, I also wanted her to be into it, not obligatory or out of pity, so I would back off even when she would give in. I recognized that wasn’t productive or healthy for our relationship and stopped that a few years ago.

Near the end of last year when I found an early handwritten version of her BD drop letter, she stated that she didn’t feel cherished. I think this follows what you and Allison are alluding to with regards to love is patient, Love is kind and how negative interactions in this area can cause severe emotional damage. I have developed a much deeper appreciation for how women attach emotions to negative experiences and never let go of those memories. It builds walls and resentment that are extremely difficult to bring down. My belief is that time and consistency of positive behavior can chip away at the armor guarding her heart and that will be when she is open to R. The things we learn after crisis...I just hope and pray that one day I will be able to show her that it will be different and not repeated.


Me:41 W:39 S:9 D:6 T:20 M:16
PA:8/22/18, BD:11/6/18
PA discovery & IHS:12/3/18, W moves:4/2/19
R’ville:9/27/19, I give D docs:3/1/20
W home:4/5/20 (due to CV-19), W NC w/OM:4/13/20 6/1/20
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Curtis, you are clearly a romantic at heart and I think that's great. But that list is filled with NEED, and you do not NEED someone else to have a complete and fulfilled life. Now you may WANT someone to share that life with and that is fine. But needing someone to "complete you" is extremely unhealthy.

I really do hope that in time your W comes to appreciate you again. But right here, right now, she doesn't. She doesn't want anything to do with you, and you have got to respect that. You clearly love your wife, so I am going to challenge you to present her the ultimate show of true love- let her go. Quit the pursuit, quit the physical touches, quit finding reasons to help her and constantly get yourself in front of her. Those things are all about what YOU want. If you love her then you will set YOUR needs aside and fulfill HER needs, and right now her greatest needs are TIME and SPACE away from you. Do you think you can do that?

I do want her, I’ve always wanted her. Although, two months of physical separation has shown me that I don’t need her. I can be a happy single dad, but I want more. I have a great life that from my POV is only lacking in one area and that’s a partner to give and receive love. My preference is for that void to be filled by the only woman I’ve ever loved and is the mother of my children. I have always valued a strong, loving family unit (father and mother, not father and OW) highly and want that for myself and my children. This is a main reason I choose to continue DBing.

I respect that she wants nothing to do with me other than co-parent right now. I have made drastic improvements with TIME and SPACE since BD. In the first couple months, I pursued and pressured almost daily. This scaled back to about every 3 days in January, a week or more in February, and several weeks at a time since March. I think not stopping her from moving out was giving her space. I am trying to remove myself from being in front of her. I do and have slipped up from impulsive reactions or triggers.

You ask if I can give her time and space? My honest answer is I don’t know. I can in stretches, I just don’t know how much more time I can give her without my wants being addressed. I find it helpful to establish short-term milestones to give her time and space, then once that date is met, establishing a new target. For instance, move out in early April to my birthday last week, now through California vacation with the kids at the end of June, then anniversary in late August. If I can continue to focus on leaving her alone over these shorter periods, then over time it will accumulate to long-term time and space that she needs.

Thanks AS!!


Me:41 W:39 S:9 D:6 T:20 M:16
PA:8/22/18, BD:11/6/18
PA discovery & IHS:12/3/18, W moves:4/2/19
R’ville:9/27/19, I give D docs:3/1/20
W home:4/5/20 (due to CV-19), W NC w/OM:4/13/20 6/1/20
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