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#2850207 05/22/19 09:09 AM
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U,

I guess I don't understand why you want to have this talk so bad. I can't remember one instance on these boards when the couple had the talk and the LBS came away saying "wow I'm glad we had the talk".


Edit - this post and the next one from previous thread, now locked. - Cadet


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Uni. Here's a possible reverse scenario of looking at it. What if W wants to talk, and is concerned with distance because she notices the behavorial change, and she wants to assess if she still has you on the hook or not? Remember they need to justify THEIR BD ACTIONS AND THEIR WAFFLING FEELINGS TO THEMSELVES that they are making the right choice to leave. Guess who they seek out to justify those feelings? MC. Divorced people, like minded people, affair partners, people who write books empowerment stuff having to do with divorce. They will seek all means to justify their feelings and behaviors with validation.

I'm just saying all my R talks, all my hopes, all my worry and discussion efforts in the last 7 months did was what everyone here said it would do. It cemented their feelings, thoughts and positions. It justified it. I've heard it from the horse's mouth, believe me.

They are F@$#ING CRAZY Uni. Even the good ones... Don't entertain crazy, don't take full ownership for someone else's crazy. Ever. Own up to your mistskes once and only once, and change them for you. Your words to them doesn't mean anything, and don't accept anything less from them then "I want to work on the M, can we work this out" from her. Don't entertain breadcrumbs, half a$$ commitments, temp checks, etc. I know the silence and distance is killing you, and you feel you are making things worse. Truth is its going to have to probably get way worse to get better...Give her so much space that she has to fear losing you, and you no longer fear losing her. Silently work on you for you. If she comes to you to tell check, just validate. If you were dating her for a week, would you put up with this B.S.?

Its like this..... They get these nagging feelings that something is wrong with the relationship months if not years before BD. They can't put a justified reason to the feelings, so they take our flaws, and some of our issues within the R and start making up $hit in their heads to justify the feelings to turn cold, drop ILYBIANILYYA, say I need space, I need to find myself, you're emotionally abusive, you don't wear the right clothes, you are too apathetic, you don't pay enough atention to me, you don't help enough around the house...Yadayadayada..etc... To justify to themselves enough to muster up to leave, and that they are better off without you. They start imagining a life without you, and it starts to look more attractive to them for whatever reason. More money, more security, more freedom, another romantic interest in EA PA..Its better off for the kids that I'm happy, etc..((Insert your reason here.)

At this time, They are probably not going to take barely any ownership of failures that they contributed to the downfall of the M, re-write M history, and place all the blame on you on why they are feeling this way. They will say, I am reacting this way as a result of your previous behaviors. They have been silently sitting on these feelings for months, if not years, out of fear that if they are going to announce something this drastic, that they are done, then they want to be and feel validated and sure of themselves by other people's validation, because they don't trust their own decisions and feelings. So what and whom they seek, does nothing but reenforces this. Hence why they say in the beginning, "I'm confused I need space" and they start hanging around MC individually, and divorced people. They may not be happy with themselves and their life and how it turned out. They may not be happy with you. They don't know the real reason why they aren't happy. So they have to assign meaning and validity to it. All I know is that they want to flee, and they want change. They're feelings is what drew them into you, and is now what is drawing them away from you. There's an old saying that the one who loves to least controls the relationship. So your mission is twofold you have to become so attractive to her that you attract her back that you are a better option than leaving. You have to love her even less then she loves you, and love yourself even more to regain your strength to work on you. Let her go. You need yourself and your well being more than you need her. I could be right? I could be wrong in my theories.

I find it ironically amusing that they are comparative with our behavioral assessments. But I've been watching there's too and I see a pattern. Try this as an experiment. I want you to look at a picture of you and your W from early on in the R. I'm willing to bet that's some of these earlier pictures contain her putting her arm around you in the picture, smiling happy. It's almost as if when you look at the picture, they are saying " Hey everyone look what I caught, and look what I have, I've got my man!" Now I want you to look at a picture of the two if you, that's closest to BD. I'm willing to bet that picture expresses something along the lines of " I am unhappy and I don't know why and I can't wait to get away from him.". Something else I forgot to mention ever notice that they're the ones in the beginning of our relationship to pursue you more, love you more try harder to appease you excetera. And you are just like hey this is great but are indifferent to it. Ever noticed that when they are the ones leaving you are the one that's pursuing them more, loving them more because you're realizing the loss and acting all insecure?

Again these are just theories of mine, you can take them or leave them.


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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

I guess I don't understand why you want to have this talk so bad. I can't remember one instance on these boards when the couple had the talk and the LBS came away saying "wow I'm glad we had the talk".


LH19 - First of all, thank you so much for the push back. I know I'm being argumentative - partly because I want people here to bring me back to reality. I take nothing here personally. Thank you for your honesty.

I am not hoping to bring my wife to tears, get her to recommit to the M, or attempt to recon. I am not looking for an ILY.

I can imagine this talk will not go well. I may go in with a simple goal: "Tell my W 3 things: I care about her, I think we are communicating poorly, I think we need MC to help us." And I am likely to be absolutely torched. But at least I said it.

And if she gets overly emotional or crazy, I can always say, "I need some time and space right now" and walk out. Or I can say, "I think we should continue this discussion in MC." She mentioned wanting to talk because she didn't understand my distance. She may throw flames. I can set boundaries. I can listen and validate.

Honestly it's highly likely by the time we are both home next week that W will have reconsidered and there will be no talk. Maybe this is all noise.

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Originally Posted by MLCxH
Your 180 should focus on you not her. Everything you mentioned is correct but it should be a secondary result. The actions themselves should be focused on your own well being not her reactions. I say this because I fall into the same trap and keep checking if I am getting a reaction from her but I feel the happiest when I personally feel better due to the 180

Sorry if this is a double post, I tried to reply earlier but it didn't seem to upload...

W mentioned a lot of 180s that she has noticed (GAL, stopping pursuit) but the trigger was that I wrote my kids letters before I left and not her. S7 remarked that maybe I liked my kids more than her. She went off about my recent GAL activities and distance. She said she didn't understand and wanted to talk about it.

I'm only saying I may tweak my 180s a little bit, specifically the distance (GAL I will keep doing what I'm doing). I have been pretty hard-line about the pursuit stopping / distance. I am comfortable taking a step back, showing my wife I care a little bit. But carefully and tentatively... The pursuit / distance thing isn't really so much for me to feel good (other than distance maybe helping me protect myself so I don't get triggered by a lack of affection for instance).

Originally Posted by MLCxH
If I were you I would try to DB and detach emotionally to the extent that the BD is nothing more than a confirmation of what you knew would happen in time. Do the work now and there will be no need to fight when the BD happens because there is no B in the BD since you already know.

MLCxH - I am hung up here on the BD issue.

Do I need to DB for myself? Absolutely.

Do I think BD will happen? Yes.

Should I be assuming BD will happen? Ehh... well it is definitely helpful to think about, so I can be better prepared. However, DB also teaches (if I am correct)... Don't read the tea leaves. Don't try to interpret clues. Don't try to get into your W's head. BD hasn't happened. It may never happen. Or it may happen 10 minutes from now. The confident and self-assured may can handle whatever comes his way.

I know 2 months from now I'll be typing a post how "You guys were right, I should have listened, I can't believe I thought I had a chance pre-BD, I should have done more to work on myself before this happened."

I'm just stuck... I look back... I realized things were bad with my M in March. It looks like the BD is coming anyways. It's not 100% certain, but seems at least 90%. What if I realized it earlier, in January? Or last summer? At what point does DB become the go-to method for handling a troubled relationship?

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Uni. Here's a possible reverse scenario of looking at it. What if W wants to talk, and is concerned with distance because she notices the behavorial change, and she wants to assess if she still has you on the hook or not?

Why would she care if I'm on the hook? Given that I agree with so much of what you wrote (as far as matching my theory of what is going on with W), she's not into the cat-and-mouse pursue/distance game. She's pretty much done, but doesn't realize it yet -- just needs a bit more justified anger to fuel her launch into orbit. I realize I should not be making assumptions about what she is thinking, so I take it with a grain of salt.

I guess what I'm trying to say is my W isn't much of a temp-checker.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
If you were dating her for a week, would you put up with this B.S.?

Absolutely not.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Ever noticed that when they are the ones leaving you are the one that's pursuing them more, loving them more because you're realizing the loss and acting all insecure?

She's been distant for years, hence I pursued and became "emotionally abusive" and must have caused our M problems.

IHCLACS - I agree with so much of your post. It is beyond frustrating. It is maddening. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and theories.

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End of the day today -

No texts no calls. I’m lonely. I’m away from my kids and I can see this is my new life. W is completely distant. This letter episode that happened was just a trigger event. I know I did nothing wrong. I know she was a volcano waiting to erupt.

I don’t know if I can make it to July. It feels more and more like living a charade. She has secret plans, I act dumb. We never talk about the future, even what we are doing this summer. I have to act like I never saw the D book. Our anniversary is in June and I have no clue what to do. Two more month of living like this.

It’s not 100% my fault things played out this way. She feels gone. I know the hope will linger and try to pull me back. But it will fade. I need to accept she is gone.

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You absolutely need to accept that shes gone. Its already over. Focus on yourself. Its absolutely not your fault. Also, she may or may not see the value in pursuing you or try and repair your MR. My EXWW is way to proud and NPD to even admit that she has done something wrong.

Nothing matters but what she wants. All of us here admit to our half of the relationship, but we continue to better ourselves. The WAS don't do that. They don't care. They keep walking the other way. I am sure they notice they are losing us, but some of them don't care enough to stop that from happening.

However, even if you end up D like me, there is still light at the end of the tunnel. I am now in full control of myself and have zero desire or care in the world for how my EXWW percieves me. I know who I am and what I deserve and that is all that matters. I have been awake now for months. This guy ST is an amazing man. I am an amazing catch and no matter what my EXWW says, I know that I worked extremely hard for what I have, for my family and for my kids. I was there for everyone all the time.

I will still be there 100% for my kids, because they deserve that. All of this self work and learning to be completely self reliant has paid off greatly as I will be perfectly comfortable living on my own and striving for my own goals.


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S11 D16 D19
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ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018
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I feel ya Uni about this being your new reality, about being lonely, my 10th anniversary would have been Aug 13th. I'm also away from my S1 on business too. Its [censored]. It really [censored]. But?.. I'm not about to sit in a frikken motel wondering WTH happened to the W that I married? As much as I want to. As much as it hurts I us, its their choice to leave. I'm not playing with that anymore. They can go find themselves, F@$! Themselves or Fondle themselves. I've done everything in my power to attempt to make things work for the last 7 months. Im done. If I have to go out alone, see new place an and explore to feel normal for a few hours then I intend to do just that. I kmow who I am, what I am, and what I am worth, and if it isn't good enough for W to want to stay? That's on her. I'm not going to hang around in seperation limbo for two years or more for anyone. If they are going to push to let us go, then damn the consequences. Im nobody's plan b.

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Originally Posted by unchien
End of the day today -

No texts no calls. I’m lonely. I’m away from my kids and I can see this is my new life. W is completely distant. This letter episode that happened was just a trigger event. I know I did nothing wrong. I know she was a volcano waiting to erupt.

I don’t know if I can make it to July. It feels more and more like living a charade. She has secret plans, I act dumb. We never talk about the future, even what we are doing this summer. I have to act like I never saw the D book. Our anniversary is in June and I have no clue what to do. Two more month of living like this.



Are you getting counseling?

This is why it is important to GAL. Easy to say and hard to do but it is important to do. If you dont GAL I fear you will only be more depressed.

Originally Posted by unchien
I need to accept she is gone.

Originally Posted by SoTorn
You absolutely need to accept that shes gone


It is hard to accept but this is important. You need to accept that she is gone. Maybe she will come back maybe she wont but at this point you need to accept this for your own sanity

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Originally Posted by SoTorn
You absolutely need to accept that shes gone. Its already over. Focus on yourself. Its absolutely not your fault. Also, she may or may not see the value in pursuing you or try and repair your MR. My EXWW is way to proud and NPD to even admit that she has done something wrong.

Nothing matters but what she wants. All of us here admit to our half of the relationship, but we continue to better ourselves. The WAS don't do that. They don't care. They keep walking the other way. I am sure they notice they are losing us, but some of them don't care enough to stop that from happening.

However, even if you end up D like me, there is still light at the end of the tunnel. I am now in full control of myself and have zero desire or care in the world for how my EXWW percieves me. I know who I am and what I deserve and that is all that matters. I have been awake now for months. This guy ST is an amazing man. I am an amazing catch and no matter what my EXWW says, I know that I worked extremely hard for what I have, for my family and for my kids. I was there for everyone all the time.

I will still be there 100% for my kids, because they deserve that. All of this self work and learning to be completely self reliant has paid off greatly as I will be perfectly comfortable living on my own and striving for my own goals.

ST - I’m definitely jumping between the 5 stages of grief. Sometimes I feel acceptance, then I lose it, back to anger, denial, depression, etc. This cycling happens multiple times a day and it’s unpredictable.

My W also is very proud. Or maybe it’s not about admitting any fault - maybe she just sees herself being happier without me. I wish she would just come out and say it. This pre-BD situation is awful - I’m supposed to be deaf, dumb, and blind, act like a “normal” husband, not talk about anything. At least post-BD some of this fakery would be gone. We would have to start working out how we are going to move on with co-parenting our kids, etc. I know D will be devastating on many levels, but this pre-BD limbo just flat-out suuuuuuuccccckkkkkks.

Your positive attitude and results are inspiring. I am honestly terrified of my new single life. 3 small kids. living in a very expensive area I will downgrade from a nice house to probably a small apartment for at least a year or two. But... I will also have free time to GAL.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I feel ya Uni about this being your new reality, about being lonely, my 10th anniversary would have been Aug 13th. I'm also away from my S1 on business too. Its [censored]. It really [censored]. But?.. I'm not about to sit in a frikken motel wondering WTH happened to the W that I married? As much as I want to. As much as it hurts I us, its their choice to leave. I'm not playing with that anymore. They can go find themselves, F@$! Themselves or Fondle themselves. I've done everything in my power to attempt to make things work for the last 7 months. Im done. If I have to go out alone, see new place an and explore to feel normal for a few hours then I intend to do just that. I kmow who I am, what I am, and what I am worth, and if it isn't good enough for W to want to stay? That's on her. I'm not going to hang around in seperation limbo for two years or more for anyone. If they are going to push to let us go, then damn the consequences. Im nobody's plan b.

Sometimes I react indirectly to posts. Something in a post will trigger a random thought train.

I feel myself letting go quite a bit from my W. It is a huge effect of this pre-BD limbo. Not trying to work on issues for months, instead planning out a D, has me detaching quite a bit emotionally. I’m sure her story is that I have kept making mistakes along the way. I don’t know. At some point, it’s not all me, and she has chosen not to attempt to work on things together. It is her choice. She thinks life w/o me will be happier for her. No point arguing.

So what am I holding onto? Is it my W? Or is it the illusion of happy married life? Or is it the financial ease of married life vs. the difficulties I will face as a D’d dad with 3 kids in an expensive area of the country? Is it the fear of being a single dad? A fear of not having that built in family support system? Am I acknowledging to myself that I took my W for granted a bit, and post-M my life is going to be more difficult?

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Originally Posted by MLCxH

Are you getting counseling?

This is why it is important to GAL. Easy to say and hard to do but it is important to do. If you dont GAL I fear you will only be more depressed.

Yes I am in IC. What helps more is GAL, reading, meditating a bit. I think lack of sleep and loss of weight are impacting me physically quite a bit.

Originally Posted by MLCxH
It is hard to accept but this is important. You need to accept that she is gone. Maybe she will come back maybe she wont but at this point you need to accept this for your own sanity

Agreed. But your message is clear - I need to get out of this “depressed acceptance” mode of thinking. Get off my @$$, get back to PMA, and get to work. I let this mini-episode of “W reacts to my DB, brief overture to talk, I try to reach out, she is super cold and distant” suck me right back in.

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Originally Posted by unchien


It is a huge effect of this pre-BD limbo. Not trying to work on issues for months, instead planning out a D, has me detaching quite a bit emotionally. I’m sure her story is that I have kept making mistakes along the way. I don’t know.



I feel you are attaching too much importance to the BD. In your case you already have the benefit of knowing what others usually figure out only after the BD. Other than that why is the BD important to you? You have to focus on detach and DB for your sake. That should not change whether you are pre-BD or post-BD.

The emotional roller coaster of trying to cope with life after divorce is tough and will take time for you to heal. Don't confuse that with the DB actions. The detaching and focusing on yourself should start now and not change with BD. Hope this helps

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Originally Posted by MLCxH
I feel you are attaching too much importance to the BD. In your case you already have the benefit of knowing what others usually figure out only after the BD. Other than that why is the BD important to you? You have to focus on detach and DB for your sake. That should not change whether you are pre-BD or post-BD.

The emotional roller coaster of trying to cope with life after divorce is tough and will take time for you to heal. Don't confuse that with the DB actions. The detaching and focusing on yourself should start now and not change with BD. Hope this helps

MLCxH - I was doing well until W reacted so strongly on Sunday. Now I’m away for a week and barely getting a chance to talk to my kids. It hurts what she is doing. I’m spun out I agree. I need to get back on the path.

BD is important because I feel like the pressure keeps mounting and my W is going to just act more unpredictably and angrily until it happens. I’m working on NGS (esp. my conflict avoidance) but this sitch is like a Little Leaguer playing in the World Series for me. That’s how I feel. I feel like I want to tear off the Band Aid and just get moving already if that’s what she wants.

I also have a lot of fear about the BD to be honest. Given her mindset, what might she attempt? Financial trickery? 100% custody? RO? Stealing things? It’s nuts.

I know I need to be 1000% stronger. And the way is by getting back to what I was doing. It helped when my kids were around. PMA most importantly. GAL. Define my 180s more clearly.

Her reaction spun me for a loop. I thought we might be making progress, she mentioned talking for the first time in months. I see now she was just angry and now giving me the silent treatment while I am away. I’m trying not to read too much into it. Maybe the space and time will help Reduce some of the tension. I don’t know. I’m tired of having to think about every little thing I’m doing or saying.

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Help on validation feedback please:

During text exchange with W on Sunday, when she was upset I wrote my kids letters and not her, we had the following exchange - slightly paraphrased to avoid Google matching. I'd like some feedback here as I know I blew it on validation, but also this was a text exchange (not verbal) while I was mid-transit traveling and I was spinning:

W1: I get that you don't want to write me. You have been distant for awhile! <Details of doing GAL stuff at night...> Anything to avoid me. It's fine. I don't really get it. I hope we can talk soon.
Me1: Actually I want to be closer to you. I'm a bit frustrated that I don't know how. You seem distant to me.
W2: I certainly don't expect you to write me after all your distance.
Me2 (responding to W1, not W2, due to text lag): I also hope we can talk soon. I don't think we are communicating well. I love you and I want this to work.

End of exchange...

I know I failed to validate here, but want to go back and learn so I can be better prepared next time. I shared my feelings instead of validating hers. Major slip.

The distance accusations are really baffling, and have thrown me for a loop. W has stopped saying ILY, or any non-hug affection, for months. I spend a few nights doing hobbies and suddenly I'm distant.

I can tell she's less upset about the distance than about writing her a letter. It's so weird. The last time I wrote her a letter before I left, she said nothing. She didn't say, "Thanks" or "I liked your letter" or anything. I thought a letter would be pressure. Honestly, I thought it would do more harm than good.

Maybe she's just upset that my kids noticed it, and she thinks I'm demonstrating "splitting" behavior (because remember I might have a PD in her mind).

I don't know, such a fog to wade through. I haven't tried to reply further as it's been a few days, although I understand I didn't validate her feelings, or address the letter issue.

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U,

It's pure manipulation and you jumped at the scrap as soon as she threw it.

U: You sound disappointed. Is that how you feel?
W: yes it makes me feel like you don't care
U: I'm sorry that I made you feel that way.
W: why did I not get one.
U: I have sent you letters in the past and they weren't well received

TRUST ME if she really wants to get close to you and work on things you will know.

Until it's U, kids, strength and respect.

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LH19,

I did jump at it. I really jumped at the "hope we can talk" bit. It was the first sign of life in awhile. I'm a sucker.

It was really odd for her to suggest a talk. My GAL activities were fairly benign, maybe 30-60 minutes a few nights going off to do something. I think I should have her come to me to talk, not vice versa.

Originally Posted by LH19
U: You sound disappointed. Is that how you feel?
W: yes it makes me feel like you don't care
U: I'm sorry that I made you feel that way.
W: why did I not get one.
U: I have sent you letters in the past and they weren't well received


OK I really need to work on this, but I have some follow up questions:

1. "U: I'm sorry that I made you feel that way." - Would it be better to say "I'm sorry that you feel that way"? (Don't want to validate her claim that I am making her feel a certain way)

2. "U: I have sent you letters in the past and they weren't well received" - Sounds like defensiveness which I am very cautious about (it is a 180 for me). I tried working out how to deal with this below:

Another test run (imaginary):

W: Why did I not get one?
U: I can understand how you would feel upset. It certainly was not my intent to upset you, or make you feel left out.
W: (eyeroll) Then what was your intent?
U: Recently when I wrote you a letter before a trip, I was not sure how you felt about it. Without any feedback, I thought maybe you wanted some space.
W: Whatever. You are being weird and distant.
U: I would like to understand more why you feel this way. I genuinely would like to know how you felt about my prior letter.
W: You wrote the kids letters and not me. That's messed up.
U: It sounds like you are hurt and would have liked a letter too like the previous time. Is that right? I will keep that in mind next time I have a trip. Thank you for sharing, it is very helpful.
W: Whatever. Stop playing games with me and the kids
U: I'm sorry you feel that way, it was not my intent. You mentioned you were hurt by S7's reaction to the letters. That must have been really hard to hear. I will talk to S7 about this, so we can be united as parents.
W: blah blah blah
U: Maybe we can talk more another time, I need to go XYZ...

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Oh and LH --

Originally Posted by LH19
TRUST ME if she really wants to get close to you and work on things you will know.

Until it's U, kids, strength and respect.

Thank you my friend. I stray so many times from what I need to focus on.

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Originally Posted by unchien
1. "U: I'm sorry that I made you feel that way." - Would it be better to say "I'm sorry that you feel that way"? (Don't want to validate her claim that I am making her feel a certain way)

Your'e right. I am still a work in process on validation lol.

Originally Posted by unchien
W: Why did I not get one?
U: I can understand how you would feel upset. It certainly was not my intent to upset you, or make you feel left out.

Again good point. How about? I can understand how you would feel upset. It certainly was not my intent to upset you.

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Validation is hard! I like rerunning scenarios and scripts for practice, it helps me pinpoint the common errors I make.

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It works though. Used it on my daughter who was having a bad morning and it always ends with “dad thank you for listening . I love you so much”.

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Sounds like you have an awesome relationship!!

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We do! Again people don’t like to hear it but divorce can make your relationship stronger with your children.

You relish and appreciate your time together more. Techniques you use from DB and other books you use with your children.

I’ll remind you again that divorce is 1,000 times better then living with and trying to convince someone to stay who doesn’t want to be there.

I have friends who are in it just for the kids and it is an unpleasant experience for them.

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LH's validation example was a good one. You want to keep your responses brief and to the point. You do not want to express YOUR feelings in validation, ONLY discuss HER feelings.


Originally Posted by unchien

OK I really need to work on this, but I have some follow up questions:

1. "U: I'm sorry that I made you feel that way." - Would it be better to say "I'm sorry that you feel that way"? (Don't want to validate her claim that I am making her feel a certain way)


In validation you seek out her feelings. The only questions you should ask are about how she feels. "It sounds like you are frustrated, is that how you feel?" "Yes, frustrated and angry!" "Frustrated and angry, yes I can see why that made you feel that way."

Quote
W: Why did I not get one?
U: I can understand how you would feel upset. It certainly was not my intent to upset you, or make you feel left out.


Don't explain your intent. Validation is strictly about understanding and acknowledging her feelings.

Quote
W: (eyeroll) Then what was your intent?
U: Recently when I wrote you a letter before a trip, I was not sure how you felt about it. Without any feedback, I thought maybe you wanted some space.


Don't explain. If she asks you a question like this then turn it back to her feelings. "You sound angry, is that how you feel?"

Quote
W: Whatever. You are being weird and distant.
U: I would like to understand more why you feel this way. I genuinely would like to know how you felt about my prior letter.


"I hear you saying you feel I'm being distant, how does that make you feel?"

Quote
W: You wrote the kids letters and not me. That's messed up.
U: It sounds like you are hurt and would have liked a letter too like the previous time. Is that right? I will keep that in mind next time I have a trip. Thank you for sharing, it is very helpful.


Don't make promises for the future, again just listen, seek to understand her feelings, validate her feelings. That's it. "I am sorry you are upset over this."

Quote
W: Whatever. Stop playing games with me and the kids
U: I'm sorry you feel that way, it was not my intent. You mentioned you were hurt by S7's reaction to the letters. That must have been really hard to hear. I will talk to S7 about this, so we can be united as parents.


Don't explain your intent. She feels a certain way regardless of what your intent was. When you try to explain your intent you are INVALIDATING her feelings. You are telling her she MISUNDERSTOOD you and her feelings are wrong. Do you see the difference?

Be careful about going into Mister Fixit mode too. That "I will talk to S7 about this" sounds like you are trying to be your W'd dad. Listen and validate, nothing more.

I wish everyone here had an opportunity to attend Retrouvaille, it is an absolute goldmine of info on validating. It's where I learned most of what I know about it. If you ever get a chance, do go.






Last edited by AnotherStander; 05/23/19 02:16 PM.

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AS - I thought Retrouvaille was for couples? Can individuals go?

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Originally Posted by unchien
AS - I thought Retrouvaille was for couples? Can individuals go?


You are correct, it's for couples, sorry I didn't make that clear. And both have to express interest in going, and both have to state that they are not in an affair. The focus is on repairing broken marriages, but the tools for that are through new communication and validation techniques. They really should come up with a version for individuals as well, that would be a helpful learning experience.


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AS -

Thank you for the free validation lessons! I am chuckling at the amount of strike-throughs, I obviously need to tighten things up and limit the words.

Couple follow-up Q's:

1. How do you handle longer conversations? Validation seems to work best in small doses -- the longer the convo runs, the more validation can start to sound hollow and robotic.

W: I'm upset.
Me: I'm sorry you are upset.
W: I'm upset that you never listen.
Me: It must be frustrating to feel like you are not being heard.
W: I try to tell you about my day and you're always on your phone.
Me: ???

2. How do you handle direct questions that don't really express a feeling, but obviously have an undertone? Do you try to deflect into a conversation about her feelings? For instance, would this be an appropriate response:

W: Did you write me a letter?
Me: No I can see that you are upset about not receiving a letter. Is that right?
W: I'm not upset.
Me: OK, can you tell me more?

3. Some conversations do not call for validation ("Is it supposed to rain today?"), some obviously do ("I can't stand when you XYZ") and some are unclear, but could be traps ("Did you fold the laundry like I asked?")

How do you handle the traps? Do you go straight to the feeling validation, or test the waters first?

W: Did you fold the laundry like I asked?
Me: Not yet.
W: OK No problem Wow, big surprise.
Me: I can see you are disappointed.

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W: I'm upset.
Me: I'm sorry you are upset.
W: I'm upset that you never listen.
Me: It must be frustrating to feel like you are not being heard.
W: I try to tell you about my day and you're always on your phone.
Me: ???

I am sorry you feel that way, I will be more present.

W: Did you write me a letter?
Me: No I can see that you are upset about not receiving a letter. Is that right?
W: I'm not upset.
Me: OK, can you tell me more?

If your relationship was on good terms : Come on baby tell me what's bothering you.

W: Did you fold the laundry like I asked?
Me: Not yet.
W: OK No problem Wow, big surprise.
Me:I know I know. I was too busy thinking about you in the black nighty you are going to wear tonight.

Again now is probably not the time for that response lol.

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Originally Posted by unchien

Thank you for the free validation lessons! I am chuckling at the amount of strike-throughs, I obviously need to tighten things up and limit the words.


Wait, who said they were free? Did you not get my invoice? grin

Quote
1. How do you handle longer conversations? Validation seems to work best in small doses -- the longer the convo runs, the more validation can start to sound hollow and robotic.

W: I'm upset.
Me: I'm sorry you are upset.
W: I'm upset that you never listen.
Me: It must be frustrating to feel like you are not being heard.
W: I try to tell you about my day and you're always on your phone.
Me: ???


You are absolutely correct, now you're getting into "advanced validation", LOL! Basic validation would be "I'm sorry you are "_____", but it can start sounding repetitive. So you have to get more detailed:

W: I'm upset.
Me: I'm sorry you're feeling upset, is there a way I can help?
W: I'm upset that you never listen.
Me: It must be frustrating to feel like you are not being heard. (VERY GOOD!)
W: I try to tell you about my day and you're always on your phone.
Me: Thank you for sharing that, I didn't know I was making you feel that way but it does make sense. This is an area I need to work on.

Quote
2. How do you handle direct questions that don't really express a feeling, but obviously have an undertone? Do you try to deflect into a conversation about her feelings? For instance, would this be an appropriate response:

W: Did you write me a letter?
Me: No I can see that you are upset about not receiving a letter. Is that right?
W: I'm not upset.
Me: OK, can you tell me more?


Yes that is good, except don't assume you know her feelings, ask her what her feelings are. "It looks like this upset you, is that how you feel?"

Quote
3. Some conversations do not call for validation ("Is it supposed to rain today?"), some obviously do ("I can't stand when you XYZ") and some are unclear, but could be traps ("Did you fold the laundry like I asked?")

How do you handle the traps? Do you go straight to the feeling validation, or test the waters first?

W: Did you fold the laundry like I asked?
Me: Not yet.
W: Wow, big surprise.
Me: I can see you are disappointed.


Yeah this is a really good question because it falls in a validation grey area. I would be inclined to initially handle it as a transaction:

W: Did you fold the laundry like I asked?
Me: Not yet.
W: Wow, big surprise.
Me: I was planning on taking care of it as soon as I finish this.

If she continues to gripe about it, or if she pulls the silent treatment and sighing heavily, etc. THEN I would hit her with the validation questions:

"It sounds like you are frustrated, is that how you feel?"
"Yes I just feel like I have to remind you over and over again!"
"I can see why that would frustrate you, I'm sorry for making you feel that way. I will get on it as soon as I finish this."


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Originally Posted by LH19

W: Did you fold the laundry like I asked?
Me: Not yet.
W: OK No problem Wow, big surprise.
Me:I know I know. I was too busy thinking about you in the black nighty you are going to wear tonight.


OK first- hilarious grin Second, I have actually done this with my girlfriend and it is a great way to diffuse a potential fight! It's not something to say every single time something like this comes up, has to have a bit of "surprise" factor to be effective. And yeah, not good to use on a WAS (if only it were that simple!!!)


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Haha I WISH I could say that to great effect.

Journal -

Really frustrated with myself right now. W has been sending me one-word texts each day, and a couple pics of the kids. Usually a 5 minutes phone convo at some point. That’s it. I’ve been kind of wallowing. Probably sleep deprivation from the travel is not helping. I finally went for a walk tonight and it felt great.

And then W calls, and I talk to the kids, and I feel this jolt of positive energy.

I’m really disappointed in myself...

Then later she’s texting me about donating money to a friend’s cause, and I’m thinking... this is the most I’ve heard from you in 3 days. Arghhhhh.... It’s a good cause and I like doing it, but I keep thinking how tight money might a year from now...

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Funny how you only hear from them when they need something from you, want something to do with money, or it has to do with the kids? Kids should be your top priority, but watch Uni, they will dangle the kids in front of you like a carrot to a horse. Mine has done the same thing with pictures and "cutsie" comments of them. I've stopped responding to them. Or have given one worded responses to them. I say they want to act seperated, they want custody schedules and child support, then play, talk, interact with your kids on your own time.

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Yeah... I’ve calmed now. Maybe had she just asked without preceding with the kids and the pleading about giving more than I initially thought, I wouldn’t feel as bad about it. It’s just money.

I got a “thanks Unchien” text this morning. So formal.

Most of my frustration at myself is how much I enjoyed the preceding talk. We laughed, I validated - I’m like a puppy dog with the owner coming home when she is nice.

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Yeah the formal responses of them and us using each others first names instead of pet nicknames is the beginning of the end I'm afraid.... Like instead of it before being "Thanks babe" It becomes "Thanks (first name) IHCLACS".

Its us and them becoming less intimate, more uncoupled, more "friendly" and more business like. It may bother you and feel awkward at first but try not to let it, and just address them by first name as well as if you were talking to a business partner. Believe it or not, The more you do this, and get used to it as the new norm, the easier it will be for both of you to detach. The interesting thing I noticed and observed, once this started, was my W started calling my S1 all my old pet nicknames, like babe, baby, etc, and started giving a significant amount more of ILY's to him, and smothering him.
Some transfer the love that they had for their spouses onto their children. I've read about this being a common normal occurance in seperation and divorce.

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I think the transfer of love to our children has been going on for awhile. For years, definitely since before W started to think about D even. It’s what kickstarted some of our friction - me feeling neglected while our kids got all the attention.

But then why the anger last week at “my distance”. Is it really as simple as her projecting her own feelings onto me? More justification for her anger so she can leave? Or could she have some lingering feelings? Ugh I know I need to let go. I feel screwed up in the head that I still love W like this despite what is happening... because I shouldn’t love her like this right now. I need to have more self respect than that.

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U,

Remember in school when you had the annoying kid who wanted to be your friend. He would show up at your house uninvited, call you all the time and you just wanted to be bothered. You would only call him when you wanted something. Then he finally gave up and started hanging out with other kids. Remember how you were mad at first mainly because it was unwanted attention but it was still attention. It had become your norm.

You didn't want the kid to comeback and be your best friend in entire world.

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Quote
But then why the anger last week at “my distance”. Is it really as simple as her projecting her own feelings onto me? More justification for her anger so she can leave? Or could she have some lingering feelings? Ugh I know I need to let go. I feel screwed up in the head that I still love W like this despite what is happening... because I shouldn’t love her like this right now. I need to have more self respect than that.


who cares why she's angry. you're gonna spin plates if you go down that path of speculation. even if you found the answer, it's not going to help you in any way. there's really no reason asking 'why' questions to her behavior. she's doing what she's doing. it just is.

about self-respect - that comes from action and doing things for yourself in alignment with your values. this means having boundaries, understanding what's important to you and doing things that feed those values. self-respect will naturally come when you start doing things. don't live in your head. I say that you have to move forward with 2 steps of action and then pause and reflect, and then keep going. it's easier to live in your head and drive yourself mad. action is going to get you out of that over time.


No one is coming to save you!

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Quote


But then why the anger last week at “my distance”.


Anger is the mot du jour. It was said in that particular moment, as a hyper inflated feeling. But only at that moment. And was probably forgotten about.

Dont do circles trying to figure it out. I know it's easier said than done but if at all possible let it be.

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Journal -

Got home from work trip tonight. W and kids are gone on an adventure trip through Monday.

I'm feeling super low and panicky tonight. No ILY since January. I can't remember the last time we kissed. No "I miss you" or "Glad you made it home safe." Just some texts of pictures of the kids and W on their adventure. I would be upset about the kids being gone this whole weekend but... I hope maybe this gives my W some space and time to do whatever thinking she needs to do. Maybe that will be healthy for both of us.

I'm sitting in this house, perfectly arranged and clean, great home feel, my kids' rooms set up super neat, and thinking... I am not going to be able to do this. My W can do this, she has everything in her life together (except for our M and how she is handling things right now). I'm going to have a crappy apartment with IKEA furniture and no idea how to pick myself off the mat. I know... that's the easy part.

This weekend as much as I want to cram self-help reading and fix-it house chores in, I absolutely have to GAL. Going to hang out with a friend tomorrow, might buy some new clothes on Sunday.

I'm just at such a loss with my sitch. How did we even get here? A month ago I was analyzing all the things I did and blaming myself 100%. But I've moved on a little bit. I can't figure out really, how did we get here? We went to MC in the fall, I stopped pestering my W for affection (which was a huge problem), and I started doing some more chores (didn't seem to help much). We stopped because the therapist was bad. And then... my wife just seemed angry. She initiated a few arguments. Not many... our arguments would be her venting about several things, me trying to absorb and listen. Not both sides going back and forth. January, February, things just seemed cold. Family vacation in March and we barely talked, didn't touch each other. Then mid-March I realized she was thinking about leaving. I panicked. I pulled over on the road, I wrote pleading letters. I suggested we go to MC. I told her how much I loved her. In April I traveled for work, and in between travels she took the kids to the in-laws. I asked to talk and she said only in front of my IC. Now it's May and things just seem more strained than ever. She's probably gained 15 pounds and looks like she's going through hell. I've probably lost 15 pounds and look like I'm going through hell. Nobody is acknowledging the elephant in the room.

Seriously, WTF is going on? She is not wayward. There is no abuse. If it's a MLC it doesn't have all of the tell-tale signs. But she just... won't... talk... about... anything to do with our M.

And if it's just a matter of not loving me anymore, or that she can't forgive me for the past, then why wait to tell me? Why go through months of hell? Because I have some work travel coming up? That makes no sense.

Maybe the emotional roller coaster will only get worse once the BD happens. This pre-BD period is tearing me apart because both W and I act as if I don't know

It is a huge strain. W has to be secretive. I have to act "normal" which is basically impossible. I also have to wonder if I am nuts, or if maybe W will come around at some point, or maybe I should treat this as a gift because maybe it means she is on the fence or deliberating. But... how can she be on the fence for so long, withholding affection, detaching? What is the point? Is this all just to slow-play things to satisfy her timeline? I don't get it. Maybe there will be some crazy revelation when the BD comes, I don't know. As far as I can guess, she's so worried about my reaciton that she's trying to plan out everything perfectly when in fact I already know and so we are playing this massive charade now going on 2+ months.

It makes me want to write another letter, and I know I deserve a massive 2x4 to the forehead for what follows.

"Dear W,

I feel very sad about the distance between us the past several months. I feel like since we stopped seeing MC1, we have been drifting apart further and stopped working on resolving our issues. We are clearly having trouble in our marriage. I don't know about you, but I can't go on ignoring our issues much longer.

In the past we seemed to talk things through and work them out. We have been dealing with so many life changes the past couple years that it has strained our ability as a couple to wade through them together. I admit that I have struggled to adapt, and my issues have contributed a lot to our problems.

Sometimes I just want to talk and hear how you are feeling or thinking about things. I don't think we can sustain this much longer if we do not share our feelings with each other. Maybe going to a MC will make it easier for us each to open up -- if so, and you agree, I think we should start to go soon so we can work to get back on track."

Commence the 2x4s...

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U,

No more letters. That BS only works in the movies. If you really can't take the limbo anymore then set up the MC appointment and see where you stand.

Take some time and read JRUSS's story it has a lot of similarities to your story.

Before D I thought the same that I would live in an apartment and it would look like $hit because my ex did all the decorating and inside cleaning. It turns out I kept the house and made it better. Her sister was just in town and visited and said omg this room you redid looks amazing. My daughter and I are currently redoing her room together.

90% of your fears will not come true and I'll say it again being divorced is 1,000 better then how you feel right now. Do you see my signature? That's the mindset you will develop in time. It's a long hard road but a trip worth traveling.

Originally I was convinced it was all my fault. I was raised by a narcissistic father and unfortunately modeled some of his traits. But with time and space I can see now we were both to blame. Neither of us had the proper tools or role models to navigate a successful relationship. It's a shame because we both still have so many things in common. I truly believe that every marriage goes through rough patches and the ones where the people came from healthy families who knew how to communicate their needs and differences make it and the ones that didn't do not. Or people just stay unhappily married out of fear. Great marriages take a lot of work.

I know it doesn't feel like it but you will survive this and most likely thrive.

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Thanks LH I will check out JRUSS's story.

Re: The House:

I highly doubt we can survive D without selling this house. I don't like to project too far into the future, but that is the reality. We stretched ourselves thin to buy this house 2 years ago, knowing full well the first year we would be in the red on cash-flow. Now we are probably even.

There's the weird piece about my W going back to work here. Right now she is FT SAHM. But she has the capability of earning money, either PT or FT, and I imagine that would be accounted for should we go to trial. Long-term if I make X and she makes Y, I am working off the assumption we each should be getting (X+Y)/2 especially if custody is 50/50.

There is a scenario where my W decides to keep the house and works her tail off to maximize Y so she can afford it. Also I am aware that this is going to be a pain because her income will ramp up each year so we'll have to go back to the courts every year to readjust. It will have to be based off tax returns. It will be a huge pain and I will probably end up getting the short end of the stick for awhile as a result.

It's pretty simple math though. If X is just enough to pay for a house, then for (X+Y)/2 to work, W would need to make Y. Which is impossible. She could liquidate some assets and maybe swing it. I don't know.

I guess the point is... there is no way that I am going to keep this house. Nor would I really want to, quite honestly. It's big, isolated, will require a lot of maintenance over the years. Beautiful home, but I'd almost rather have a home in a neighborhood where we can walk to parks and shops and interact more with other people. I'd rather not have a big maintenance project. The problem is where I live... with (X+Y)/2 income, that will basically be a condo or apartment for awhile. It is just reality.

Re: Fears

Your quote really does resonate with me. I know D would not be so bad. I'm sitting here at home (alone) this morning thinking about my plans to GAL, do some housework, and it feels so low pressure. I like it. W sent me a text and I'm ignoring it, not to be a jerk, just b/c I don't feel like I need to respond. I feel detached, I feel good. I know sometimes in the next 2 hours I will probably swing into a low funk, feel like I'm having a low grade panic attack, and I'll breathe through that and then pick myself up again.

Re: Fault

I hear you on the fault thing. I was raised by a moody mother (essentially BPD) and a non-emotional father. I learned how to cater to my mother's moods and try to keep the peace. I learned how to be a Nice Guy. I learned how to avoid conflict. I learned how to doubt my instincts. I learned how to make my W my emotional center. I never learned how to set healthy boundaries. When we moved up here, I let my distress about my W being depressed or upset get the better of me. I pleaded with her to just tell me everything was okay. I drove her away. Some of these episodes bordered on, or even crossed over into, emotional abuse. No name calling and yelling, but still EA. I played the victim. I worried CONSTANTLY about my W's happiness. I rushed home from work. I asked her "Are you okay?" constantly, to her annoyance. Her anger scared me and drove me away to give her space.

My parents decided to cut off communication about 3 years ago. I should have taken the first step quite honestly. I was relieved. It was a huge issue in our M - every time we interacted with them there was conflict and hurt. Recently they have tried to reach out to contact me. But with no apologies, no remorse. I have gone NC with them except when necessary to exchange information (for reasons I won't get into). My position is that I will not engage in any future R with them until they show a willingness to change. I will not expose my kids to this unhealthiness. Getting over the guilt here was a HUGE undertaking for me, years of IC. But I am there. W resents me for it. We even talked about it a few weeks ago, and I told her, If they don't show a commitment to change, such as going to therapy on their own, I will not entertain a future R with them. She was silent, probably wondering if I was just telling her what she wanted to hear. I don't really care, it is my truth. In the past, I would have probably asked W "What would you do?" I'm acting on my own at this point. Maybe she was testing me, wondering if post-D I will reinitiate contact. I don't know. It will be 100% my say at that point.

It's easy to fall into 2 traps when thinking about what happened to our M. First, I could blame my W. I could say, you are controlling. You controlled our sex life and cut it off. We have no affection. You are angry and won't talk to me. You have avoided MC to work through our issues. You are secretive and planning your way out. You don't let me in. I can never do enough around the house to keep you happy. I can never do enough with my work schedule to keep you happy. You don't get along with your mom, but you never realized how you patterned your parenting after hers... you poured everything into your R with your kids, and left your H feeling abandoned, stranded.

Or, I could blame myself. My NGS drove you away. I more or less molded you to be controlling. I let fear drive my decisions. I patterned my behavior just like when I was a child, and you had no choice but to take ownership of the kids and the house. And I became like my dad, FT worker. Different from my dad in the sense that I engage with my kids way more. And different in the sense that I pushed for a closer R with my W. But still, letting W run the show.

But the healthy way to look at this (I think) is: We both brought our issues into this M. Our love for each other was strong enough to get through most episodes. Then we had 3 kids, and we moved, and had a huge life disruption. And we were no longer equipped to handle this. Other couples, healthier couples, or couples with different issues, could have worked through it. We could not. We failed at MC the first time. W seems to have given up. I am willing to go ahead with MC2. I don't think it would be easy work, but I don't want to give up. I'd like one more shot. W seems to have already made up her mind though, and I can't change that, and the shame of it all is depressing. The shame of splitting our family apart, rather than fighting to make it work.

LH you said it perfectly in your post, and I'm basically repeating what you said here just with a lot more words.

OK I need to stop doing THIS, and start GAL'ing for the day....

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LH19 -

Thanks for pointing me to JRuss's story. I read through a majority of the posts.

Like most forum visitors, I come here and read other stories and try to fit them to my own story. When I find similarities that give me strength and positivity ("that couple with similarly aged kids recon'd!!"), I identify and empathize with the story. When I find differences ("that couple didn't work out, but their kids were 1 year age different from mine, so my story can be different!!") I also do the same. It is a dangerous practice.

JRuss's story did strike quite a nerve. Many similarities (not all). Perhaps what resonated most was how long he held out hope, how long he DB'ed, how there was a last glimmer of hope with W going to MC only to recognize quickly it was a checkbox situation. And then, just a few months later, how much happier and confident JRuss's posts sounded.

JRuss, if your read this, I would love to hear your input on my sitch.

The last 24 hours, a heavy reality is setting in for me. How many stories have I read here which actually involve reconciliation? Maybe 1-2%? And of those 2%, the sitches seem completely different from mine. Thread upon thread of hopeful newcomers coming in, only to face D down the road regardless. Many if not most people are stronger from coming here, some are not.

There is realistically nothing about my sitch that suggests recon is even a remote possibility. My W has established a consistent pattern of distance punctuated with sporadic bouts of anger and resentment, going on 6 months at least. I don't initiate R talk anymore - I feel like I made it clear in my letters that I want to reconcile, and she has ignored me 100%. I can (and will) continue to work on myself - PMA, GAL, NGS, validate, set boundaries, 180s, focus on my kids - but I need to be honest at this point. There is ZERO chance of this coming back. All of those things I do need to be for me and my kids now, nothing more. I'm not saying this from a depressed hopeless mindset. I'm saying this from a "time to look at reality square the face" mindset. There's just no realistic chance of recon. And I also need to get out of the mindset that there is just some magic thing I need to be doing, and I can't figure it out, and I will regret it the rest of my life if I don't keep trying to find that magic thing. Because that mindset is pointing me towards a dark place.

I know I will vacillate more when W and kids return home. I'll see hopeful signs. We'll share a drink and have a good conversation and laugh a bit. But it will mean nothing. It will mean nothing to her, other than that we will be able to remain friends and co-parent and that is a good thing in her mind (and I guess mine as well).

When I do have these periods of thinking my M is already 6 feet under, I feel relief. It feels like I can stop feeling broken - I can work on myself intensely, but I don't need to focus so heavily that I start to burn out. I'm a good person, I'm valuable, I will find love in this world, and I will look back on this period of my life and be thankful that it made me stronger. I know this to be true. I may look back and wonder why I put up with this treatment. I may wonder if I was unhappy long before I even realized it also. It will be hard to let go. She is still beautiful to me. She is still the woman of my dreams, but I need to step back and analyze why I think that. Am I getting my needs met in this M?

The process has started. The pedestal is crumbling.

I'm trying also to avoid perfectionist thinking. There is no "perfect" DB-ing. I have a job, 3 kids, and frankly I'm burning out from all the attempts to better myself. I need to just live sometimes. Like so many here, I want so badly to save my M, but at what cost to my happiness? Is this even healthy?

I'd like to throw out a dare to the forum to end this post: Tell me about a sitch similar to mine (or JRuss's) where the couple reconciled. And if so, what are the primary reasons that sitch ended in reconciliation rather than D?

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I’ll bite...

You have a lot to deal with, and I wont get into that, as I am on my phone. However I read your thoughts
request regarding reconcilated stories with similiarities to your own.

Its pretty simple, and really its what most people have a hard time grasping: It is not at all about specific sitches that are salvable. It all comes down to one thing. The WAW/WW needs to WANT to reconcile. Everything you do is to strengthen yourself, and find the resolve to rise, and live, love and laugh on your own. That is not case specific, that is moving on and healing, and that is the essence really.

It just so happens, that a produkt of this process occasionally is, that the waw/WW has a change of heart.


BD: Wife says "its over" 11th august 2018.
EA: June 2018
PA: August 2018 - ongoing
Status: Taking turns 7 days a week to be in the house w. kids
WW: no regrets, seems happy with leaving.
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Originally Posted by Hurt213
Its pretty simple, and really its what most people have a hard time grasping: It is not at all about specific sitches that are salvable. It all comes down to one thing. The WAW/WW needs to WANT to reconcile. Everything you do is to strengthen yourself, and find the resolve to rise, and live, love and laugh on your own. That is not case specific, that is moving on and healing, and that is the essence really.

It just so happens, that a produkt of this process occasionally is, that the waw/WW has a change of heart.

Thanks Hurt. I know this in my brain and in my heart, but I cannot let go.

I see DB-ing as having 3 parts:

1. Work on yourself. Use this upheaval in your life to motivate you to change for the better.

2. It is possible (although unlikely) as a byproduct of DB-ing that your WAS may have a change of heart.

3. Successful DB-ing requires focusing on #1 (self) and ignoring and forgetting #2 (WAS).

Following #3 to the letter of the law is virtually impossible.

Maybe I've just been thrown for a loop by what happened a week ago in my sitch. My W had such a strong, angry reaction that I couldn't help but wonder if it indicated there was still some feeling there. I can't figure it out. Mostly I think the anger is her fuel driving her towards D, and I should think nothing of it. But I also think... anger is better than apathy.

It was bizarre to me...Receiving angry texts about "my distance" from a W who has completely taken affection off the table (no ILY's, only hugs, sleep in same bed but don't even go to bed at the same time) and doesn't seem to want to spend any time together except talking at night about the kids or otherwise "safe" topics (friends and family, no R talk). Do I maintain the distance at risk of furthering her anger? Do I tentatively come closer and risk becoming vulnerable again? I don't know. I snuck in a "Miss you all" text this week to W and kids and I'm over-thinking it. Was that a mistake? What is her anger really about? What is lurking there under the surface? Should I even care what W thinks? She mentioned not understanding me, and hopefully we could talk soon. Should I press? Should I even sit around waiting for her to initiate this talk? Or should I assume she was in a highly emotional state, regrets wanting to talk, and will never bring it up again? Arghhhh....

I know I shouldn't worry so much about WAS. We live together. I cannot avoid getting reactions sometimes from her. And periodically I do get very strong reactions and I can't help but wonder... What was that all about? What is lurking under the surface that triggered this anger? Is that a clue? Does that lead me towards a potential 180 that would be helpful - not a magic key, but just something I could improve on that I am unaware of? Is my W telling me something about myself that I need for my self-improvement? Does she even want me to be closer, or is she just venting her anger and blaming me?

^^^^
See how easily I violated #3?! Fortunately I have let go of that impulse to initiate and R talk, or write another letter, but I am having difficulty balancing the PMA vibe "Hi, it's your H, hope you're having a great time with the kids!" and the detached vibe "I'm cool chilling by myself, contact me when you want." It all feels fake.

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Ok I'm posting a lot this weekend, this is what happens when home alone. Probably should be doing more DB stuff...

I did get out of the house for some GAL activities today and exercised. Later I was in the grocery store trying to consciously stay in the present moment, lost touch when I passed the flower section and thought about how in the past I would have bought some flowers for my W upon returning home. The sadness permeates.

Deep thoughts

You can probably tell in my rambling posts that I am really struggling with whether I should have any hope at all of my M remaining intact. Because if not, I need to work on moving on fully.

I keep hoping for posters to come in and provide some flicker of hope to tell me otherwise.

First I will explain why I feel my sitch is dire, and second I will explain where I am going with this:

First:

I was listening to a podcast today touching upon toxic situations. Certain conditions apply: persistent anger and resentment, feeling like you're walking on eggshells, the situation affecting all facets of your life negatively (work, sleep, etc.). There were more and I don't remember them all.

My situation is clearly toxic. It checks all the boxes. With more skillful coping mechanisms, I would be able to work out of the last piece (all facets of your life), which is more or less "don't fall into a deep depression." But the others are basically unresolvable.

This is the essence of DB. This sitch is toxic. I have ZERO control over my W, her moods, her outlook, what she wants out of life. She has shown ZERO interest in talking about our sitch, trying to work on things, talking about the future, nothing.

Now:

My W *may* initiate some R talk this week. She will likely back out or just have forgotten, but there was some indication last week that she wanted to discuss "my distance." I need to be prepared. To be clear, I will not initiate.

If I am correct here, the advice would be to avoid this R talk at all costs. Do not jump into an R talk assuming you can just validate. You will quickly be put on the defensive. Let me know if I misunderstand.

Example:

W (angrily): "I wanted to talk about last week. You didn't write me letter, you didn't want to give me a hug, you've been super distant for 2 weeks."
U: "I can understand how you were upset about not receiving a letter."
W: "Well... why didn't you write one?"
U: *** tongue tripping ***

The bigger knot I am untangling is... should I really be avoiding this particular R talk? W has not initiated any serious talk in months. I don't see myself having many opportunities here.

I can deflect and avoid this talk and just keep doing my DB work. Or I can treat this as an opportunity to feel out my W's position, since she offers such little feedback otherwise.

Up front I would establish a boundary that I will walk away from any conversation that becomes heated or angry.

Gitch'er 2x4s ready...

What Do I Have To Lose

- I will cycle hard if hit with the official BD. (Although I think this will happen regardless of timeline).
- It may accelerate the D timeline, which goes against DB principles.
- I may not be ready for some of the things she says.
- W may become more emotionally unstable which would further challenge my sitch.

What Do I Have To Gain

- W initiated an R talk for first time in months. R's cannot last without basic communication.
- Opportunity to state my position, for the record, in person:

1. We are disconnected, and have been for many months. I want to reconnect.
2. I want our M to work, and I want to do my part.
3. I want to go to MC if we both have the goal of working on the M.

- Clarity on my sitch. W could obfuscate, but even that would tell me something.
- F2F communication about something actually important for the first time since probably January.

I look at these lists and think I have more to Gain than I do to Lose.

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U,

DB principles state to not initiate R talks but if she does just listen and validate. Don't get defensive and try state your case. Just validate her feelings. If she bombs you just say " I understand that you feel that way. I don't want a divorce but I won't stand in your way". Then get out of the house and cry, scream, break stuff whatever you have to do.

I feel for you man but I promise you right now you are in the eye of the hurricane. The storm will break and the sun will come out again.

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LH19 -

I am fully prepared to do just that for a BD situation.

I am thinking more how to handle it if she approaches me for some R talk but does not BD. I feel like this would be a rare (only?) opportunity to at least talk a bit about the past 5 months. My W has shown zero willingness to R talk for months.

I understand my sitch is toxic and basically a sure-fire bet to end in D. She seems 100% committed to D, and any pleasantness between us is likely due to her wanting to co-parent amicably.

But if there is any chance to reduce the toxicity, I'd like to at least try.

I'm truly curious why she was so angry about me being distant. Most likely it's a way for her to further justify in her head that she needs out. But it could also be an opportunity for me to be clear what I want, without getting overly emotional (which might be one of her fears, and thus a 180 opportunity). I could just say, flat-out, I feel like we are drifting apart so far that our M is in peril, and I want to reconnect because I love her and want this to work.

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Conventional wisdom would suggest that when the LBS starts GAL and sticking to boundaries, it provokes anger, resentment, etc etc. The picture that the WAS/WS has created about the LBS starts getting chipped at and it brings a range of emotions. Things like 'why now?' amongst others.

I use my words carefully and hence I said 'suggest'. You don't truly know what's bringing these emotions out of her and as I said earlier, try not to speculate. It will drive you up the wall as you won't find the answer. Curiosity about their behaviour easily turns into trying to mindread and going down tunnels. I know it's hard not to do it, but that's why GAL and doing things for yourself are important right now. Keeps the focus on YOU.


No one is coming to save you!

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Maika - Thank you. I agree I need to focus on myself. For now, meditation and exercise help the most, as they are simple doable daily tasks, and I really need to focus on pulling myself together each day. Also stopping my thought process when I start ruminating. Hobbies are a bit secondary as I can't do them every day.

You are right that I am guilty of speculating and mind reading. It is an unhealthy habit that I need to check.

But if W does initiate an R talk, am I wrong that it could be a tunnel with some cheese? I only say that because we haven't explored that tunnel in several months.

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We have all been guilty of all of the above. Don't beat yourself up over it. Consider what I wrote as a gentle nudge back to bring your focus to yourself. Just like in meditation, you bring your focus back to your breath once your realize your mind has wandered. this is just like that.

If she brings up R talks, it could be anything. Just remember how you want to show up to a conversation like that - calm, collected, and with validation. As I said, don't focus so much on the tactics and techniques because you'll feel like you need to execute perfectly to change outcomes. It's not going to change the outcomes in the 'now', but developing the overall strategy and how you show up consistently will make the ultimate difference to you.


No one is coming to save you!

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Right. If one of her issues with me is that I am distant, I think I have to show up with more than validation.

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U,

If you really believe that she is going to bring up distance being a problem then if she pushes you on it just say "how do you suggest we work on it?"

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Thank you LH!

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Journal -

W back today with the kids. I tried being super positive (bit of a 180) but no discernible change. No emotional connection.

The topic du jour is: Emotional Abandonment

My wife has emotionally abandoned me. There is no connection, no concern about how I am feeling, how my day went, anything. I am not particularly angry or upset about this, just observing it as a fact. I can't do it forever, but it is what it is.

This explains why I feel things are toxic, and why we are not communicating. I am working SO hard to meet my own needs, to be more balanced emotionally, and not look to W to meet my needs. I am really happy about this progress regardless of what it means to my M.

I am willing to set aside my R needs for the moment if I can get my W back on track to working on this M.

I see 3 main contributing factors to my W's emotional abandonment:

1. Unforgiveness for past hurts

- When I wrote my "April Letters," they were over-the-top. I detailed many past hurts, I expressed remorse, I tried to place myself in W's shoes to understand how she felt. I asked her to share her feelings if she felt safe. I said I was not ready to ask for forgiveness yet, as I had not forgiven myself. No feedback from W whether she forgives me. Actually no feedback at all. Perhaps I need to ask for forgiveness explicitly?

2. Unmet needs

- The disruption of moving 2 years ago, turning my W into SAHM instead of having her part-time career, combined with issues around housekeeping and childcare, have done a number.

- W also has an issue (covered during MC1 in 2018) expressing her needs. She instead tends to build up resentment that I am not aware of the needs, that she shouldn't need to ask.

3. Unwillingness to talk

- Self-evident

Here's the plain facts:

- (1) W says ZIP about the letters
- (2) W gets upset now when I do meet needs that I previously did not meet.
- (3) W is showing no sign of wanting to talk about the M or work on it. MC in July sounds far off even today. I don't buy it.

So how does one approach this situation?

A. DB. R's are 50/50, I should not fall all over myself trying to fix everything on my own.

B. Try to get W to open up and communicate, so I can better understand the hurts (#1) and the needs (#2). Communication shows that I care, and also provides me feedback which I am sorely lacking from W. Somebody needs to break through this brick wall or we are finished.

C. Give up.

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Unchien...

I don't mean to be rude, and I have been EXACTLY where you are - many of us have. I am not trying to tell you what to do, but, I actually am... Because you are digging yourself into a hole, and its neck high at this point.

Let me elaborate:

You are trying to convince yourself, that you don't care about her emotional status towards you - Thats just not true, and the sooner you realize that you are only fooling yourself, the sooner you will be on the right path, sorry friend.

Its so explicit in your journaling, that everything you do, is done with hopes of a reaction from her side. And you aren't learning from her signals at all. You poored your heart out, and took responsibility for all the hurt, and you got ZERO feedback whatsoever. Listen, she is absolutely done in her head right now, and she is BEGGING for you to give her space. And here you are, after having sent said letters, asking yourself, if you should now pressure her even further by taking the interaction to a verbal level - I think you know the answer to your own question.. Back off.

Quote
So how does one approach this situation?

A. DB. R's are 50/50, I should not fall all over myself trying to fix everything on my own.

B. Try to get W to open up and communicate, so I can better understand the hurts (#1) and the needs (#2). Communication shows that I care, and also provides me feedback which I am sorely lacking from W. Somebody needs to break through this brick wall or we are finished.

C. Give up.


1. You should not fall at all, but you are, because your journaling is DENSE with thoughts about her and how she might react to what you are thinking - What about journaling about what you want for YOU - leave her out of the equation / relief her of the immense pressure.

2. Communication is CRITICAL in a relationship because two individuals are able to express their needs and wants to each other and thereby develop a deeper connection and evolve their relationship.

However.... Your wife is desperately signaling the need for space, and you are pressuring. Drop the rope. Listen to yourself "Break through this brick wall? or we are finished?" - It's not your wall to break down - its her fight, and you are just building that wall thicker and thicker by trying to knock it down.

Sorry for being blunt.

I do root for you, but you seem to really have a tough time with letting her do her, while you figure out you.


BD: Wife says "its over" 11th august 2018.
EA: June 2018
PA: August 2018 - ongoing
Status: Taking turns 7 days a week to be in the house w. kids
WW: no regrets, seems happy with leaving.
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Hurt213 -

Thank you for your blunt honesty. I don't take any of it as rude, and quite frankly if you feel like are holding back then let it really rip next time.

You are right, I am always wondering "How will W react if I do XYZ?" I won't deny that.

And now I will commence resuming the focus on my W in this post frown

Originally Posted by Hurt213
2. Communication is CRITICAL in a relationship because two individuals are able to express their needs and wants to each other and thereby develop a deeper connection and evolve their relationship.

The last time my W communicated with me about our R was in an e-mail in March. Prior to that, 2 one-sided venting sessions in January.

I feel that we need to work on our communication styles, but it will take both of us to commit. I'm rearing to go.

I am also starting to question whether I can be happy in a M with such poor communication.

Originally Posted by Hurt213
However.... Your wife is desperately signaling the need for space, and you are pressuring. Drop the rope. Listen to yourself "Break through this brick wall? or we are finished?" - It's not your wall to break down - its her fight, and you are just building that wall thicker and thicker by trying to knock it down.

If I hurt my W, if I was not meeting her needs, I feel it is my responsibility as her H to try to resolve the hurt and meet her needs.

Yes, she is signaling the need for space. This is because she is emotionally checked out, and space allows her to proceed with her D plans. In the past, W has held in resentments and chosen not to communicate her needs, if that matters.

It's just really darned confusing for me. I've been sitting here typing about 10 different responses, and to your point, Hurt, every time I start thinking more about them, I realize I'm stuck thinking about my W's reaction again.

Maybe I can come to some resolution by realizing that I already did try to resolve the hurt and meet her needs. It's so hard to let go. This is 15 years of my life. I want to fix things. I want to try harder. And I know that is a cringe-worthy statement to DB'ers. But how can I not want to heal the hurt and try to meet her needs? How can I decide to just stop communicating because that's what she wants? I've given her a month off, and nothing about my sitch has changed. Is it time for a 180?

Blah... too late, I need to go to bed. Will sit and wait.

Originally Posted by Hurt213
I do root for you, but you seem to really have a tough time with letting her do her, while you figure out you.

Yes I should journal more about what I am doing to figure out me. I actually am doing some ME-focused work.

I'm really focused on daily meditation and exercise at the moment. Things that distract the brain, are easy to do, and can be done anywhere. Hobbies I have placed on the back-burner a little bit, as they are harder to get into daily. Reading NMMNG second time through and working through some of the exercises there - fear of abandonment is a doozy given my current sitch.

GAL saw a good friend over the weekend while W and kids were gone, something I almost never do. Really good time, and good to know I have solid friends.

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Quote
If I hurt my W, if I was not meeting her needs, I feel it is my responsibility as her H to try to resolve the hurt and meet her needs.


Yes, that is a very sincere approach, and a hurtful realization, that we could had done better when we had the chance, and heck, we all could, her included. However.... That was when she was INTERESTED in your efforts to resolve the hurt, when she CARED about you meeting her needs. She does not want either at this point, so why do you keep pushing? it is weak pursuit behavior, and you are worth SO MUCH more! Regain your self-respect, and realize that you are not at all the only one who has blame in these turn of events.

Quote
Yes, she is signaling the need for space. This is because she is emotionally checked out, and space allows her to proceed with her D plans. In the past, W has held in resentments and chosen not to communicate her needs, if that matters.


So, you are mind reading - You just assume she is checked out, and she is divorcing you, if you do not do something drastically. Heres the kicker. She will divorce you, if that is what she has decided to do - because, that is her prerogative. She is a human being with a free will, and you trying to coheres her into changing her mind will just postpone the fact, that you 1,2 maybe 5 years from now, will find yourself back on this forum, because things crashed again.

Let her fight her own battle - Dont engage, dont get involved, be a loving detached and strong man that is not at all affected by her choices and statements. Let her have some victories with her decisions, and let her burn her fingers on other decisions. In the end, if she decides to come back, it will have been HER choice and it will come from a place of free will - and that is the only acceptable foundation for ever trying to make reconciliation work.

Set her free in order for you to be free to love with detachment. If not, be the victim of your thoughts, and ruin your chances of happiness with her or someone else.

Last edited by Hurt213; 05/28/19 08:15 AM.

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U,

Hurt is giving you good advice. Once upon a time I had to ride him pretty hard to let go lol. U at some point you are going to have to forgive yourself for your shortcomings in the relationship. There's no guide or manual giving to you when you get married. The real shame of everything is by the time people here are ready to roll up their sleeves and do the work it's too late.

I was watching a TV series a couple years ago and a mother was having a conversation with her daughter about marriage. She said you know the number one key to a successful long term marriage? "Forgiveness"

Unfortunately by the time people get here it not an option. Not right now anyways.

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U, you come off as very desperate and needy and paranoid for someone that hasn't been BD'd. Maybe that's just you pouring things out here, but if you are the least bit needy around W then that has got to STOP and stop right NOW. Desperate and needy is so incredibly unattractive that it will push her right out the door. You've got to become strong and independent, make yourself attractive again. Who were you when you met W? Think about your characteristics back then, compare that to who you are now, and figure out how you can be more like that guy she was originally attracted to. If she is preparing to BD you then you may very well stop that in it's tracks if you can become "the spouse only a fool would leave." But the sad and desperate stuff will just drive her away.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Lots of advice here about my desperation and neediness.

Outwardly I am not acting particularly needy to W. Mostly giving her space, validating, and when we do talk (about the kids or logistics for the week) staying positive and mostly listening. I do think a lot about doing things which would be anti-DB though, and I journal them here a lot.

Inwardly yes I am struggling. Improving, but struggling.

I try to stay super positive and act happy. It is hard when you are emotionally cut off, feeling used, feeling unsupported, unwanted. But I'm trying my best. I'm sure at times she can see through it.

The attractiveness question is hard. We used to go on dates, we watched movies together, we snuggled, we laughed, we shared feelings with each other. I showed her that I cared about her feelings, but most importantly, she shared openly. I was not an alpha male, and she isn't attracted to that. I was there for her, and she was there for me. Now we have 3 kids and a history of hurt. I'm in good physical shape. I don't think becoming attractive is the fix.

It still seems counter-intuitive to see a problem in a M and deliberately let it go. Rather than try to fix it.

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sandi2 posted something on another thread here that got me thinking...

Should I move over to the MLC forum? Reasons:

- no EA/PA in my sitch
- W 39
- W has a ton of doctor appointments last 2 years, hormonal issues ongoing
- disruptive move 2 years ago
- W career disrupted, FT SAHM for last 2 years
- 3 young kids (2 not in school yet)

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Originally Posted by unchien

The attractiveness question is hard. We used to go on dates, we watched movies together, we snuggled, we laughed, we shared feelings with each other. I showed her that I cared about her feelings, but most importantly, she shared openly.


Rewind back a little farther. Don't try and be the person you were during your early dating, that's not what I'm saying. Be the person you were BEFORE the dating. What did she find attractive before you started dating?

Quote
I'm in good physical shape. I don't think becoming attractive is the fix.


Physical condition is just one part of attractiveness. Don't be so quick to assume you are the ultimate example of attractiveness, if you were she wouldn't be treating you like she doesn't care. Confidence, charisma, magnetism, those are the things I'm talking about.

Quote
It still seems counter-intuitive to see a problem in a M and deliberately let it go. Rather than try to fix it.


Who said not to fix it? "Now we have 3 kids and a history of hurt." You are hopefully working on that history of hurt, doing 180's on your contributions to that hurt. THAT is the work you need to do. Not applying pressure on her with constant temperature checks and R discussions.


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AS -

What she found most attractive was the connection when we talked. Before we dated we were friends for a few months. During that time we had deep conversations and really shared intimate details about our lives. We had both gone through bad breakups. It was a deep connection. It helped that there was a physical attraction, and we had fun, but more than anything it was those conversations. Over time our R evolved into an obvious mutual attraction and things just sailed along.

I don't think physical attraction has anything to do with my sitch right now. There's no obvious 180 there for me.

Regarding the hurt - yes I am doing 180s the best I can. I am taking on more responsibility at home, flexing my work hours so I can be with the kids more, also giving her a huge amount of space. She noticed I did a little bit extra this weekend, which was nice. Not because it means anything for our R, but just that it is a worthwhile 180 and gives me extra motivation to keep plugging away.

None of this may matter if she has tagged me with the abuse label. I talked a lot about this in my earlier posts and don't want to start rehashing everything.

If she thinks I'm an abuser, that may have sealed my fate already and I'm just not getting the message. Heck... she may end up filing an RO, or trying to get sole custody. It scares the heck out of me. I spent the month of April really digging into my behaviors and patterns. I admitted to some emotional abuse in my letters too W. These were primarily me begging for reassurance and getting emotionally histrionic even when she told me to stop.

Classic NGS behavior... Fear of abandonment, emotional codependency. I'm not fixed but I am working on it. FOA -- well I've been facing that down for a couple months now, I think I'm learning that abandonment is real and I just have to deal with it. In some sense this crisis is curing me. For emotional codependency, the obvious 180 here is to detach and not be dragged about by my W's emotions. Whether that changes her mind about me, that is outside my control.

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Originally Posted by unchien


The last 24 hours, a heavy reality is setting in for me. How many stories have I read here which actually involve reconciliation? Maybe 1-2%? And of those 2%, the sitches seem completely different from mine. Thread upon thread of hopeful newcomers coming in, only to face D down the road regardless. Many if not most people are stronger from coming here, some are not.



U

So this isn't a story from this website to my knowledge. I have a friend in the military, he and his W got so bad, couldn't talk, she BD'd him, he panicked, didn't know what to do, did all the dumb stuff we talk about on here; they went through a nasty divorce, got their house foreclosed, lost almost everything. He went wild for a couple years, she did her thing, and two years after getting divorced, they decided to get back together. They've been at it for the second time for over 10 years now, and there is no looking back. He likes to joke that he has been married, divorced, and married a second time all with the same woman. Their kids are grown now and doing well, and he and his W are happy together. It can happen.

I don't think that anyone should take solace in that story and definitely shouldn't think of it as a guarantee that one can work it out, but hope is always a good thing when in a dark place.

I am having a tough time in my sitch too, I spend less time in these cheeseless tunnels, but I still go there once in a while.

I want my W back like nobody could believe. You know who I want back just as much? ME. I've become such a spineless sap that caves to whatever she wants or doesn't want all the time. Its hard to rebuild that muscle and stand up straight again. We are all having a tough time no matter where we are at in this horrible cycle. I struggle at times, recently I have been struggling, then I will go for a month without too much struggle. Its a cycle, hopefully I can go a couple months without struggling soon. Hopefully you can get there too.

I'm with everyone else. Stop writing letters and pursuing. If you can get those letters back, get them back and burn them. My WW used mine to claim all sorts of things in court to take away the kids, get more money, etc...we aren't final yet but all these mental health evals and alcohol evals are a pain and are expensive. All for problems I don't have. She blamed me for everything under the sun, i admitted to all kinds of crazy stuff in a letter, hoped she would see my change and come back and help me through my tough times. She promptly gave said letter to her lawyer as enclosure 1. Don't give her anymore ability to use a victim mentality against you. Don't F yourself with more pursuit. My $0.02.


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Originally Posted by LB55
I'm with everyone else. Stop writing letters and pursuing. If you can get those letters back, get them back and burn them. My WW used mine to claim all sorts of things in court to take away the kids, get more money, etc...we aren't final yet but all these mental health evals and alcohol evals are a pain and are expensive. All for problems I don't have. She blamed me for everything under the sun, i admitted to all kinds of crazy stuff in a letter, hoped she would see my change and come back and help me through my tough times. She promptly gave said letter to her lawyer as enclosure 1. Don't give her anymore ability to use a victim mentality against you. Don't F yourself with more pursuit. My $0.02.

Even if I found them, she would have copied them. This is my true worst-case scenario - W trying to get sole custody, RO, the whole bit. I admitted to a lot in those letters, I was apologizing, trying to win my W back. I don't think any of it would hold up, but I'm sure she could make the process more difficult and use the leverage. I guess this is why we have L's and forensic psychologists -- man this put a damper on my PMA.

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Originally Posted by LB55
Don't F yourself with more pursuit. My $0.02.

What LB55 says above is something you need to think hard about.

Reading through all your posts it appears you are still having trouble moving past the denial stage. I feel you need to accept the reality of things and start preparing mentally for the worst case. If things work out then great but if they don't you don't want to be caught unprepared.

You are desperate to save the marriage now and unfortunately this desperation will likely be your worst enemy in more ways than one. As many others have said let go of the rope. Accept that you have no control over the situation, take a deep breath and stop trying to fix things at least for a day and see how it feels. Give yourself a break from working hard to try and save the relationship. It may end up being the best thing you do for the relationship.

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Journal -

W got angry about my distance a week ago so I’ve dialed back the aloofness. It’s an experiment in progress.

Yesterday I turned up the PMA a little bit. Told a few more jokes and tried to lighten the mood. Kept it going today. Came home from work and we all had an amazing time at dinner. Lots of laughter and the mood seemed lighter. I felt relaxed for awhile, like I was not in the fishbowl. Not back to normal but just lighter. W rubbed my arm as I passed by her which is a complete rarity. I had done that a couple times the past two days (very unsure of myself as W responds so neutrally you would think she didn’t notice). The reciprocation was a curious moment... what is she telling me?

I also sent her a text last night that I could tell the kids had a great trip with her, and she was a great mom. No response. This morning she sent me a text that she appreciated some housework I did, something extra I normally don’t do, something almost unnoticeable. But she noticed. Exchanging some gratitude doesn’t mean much but still.. another rarity from her.

These are ripples in a giant lake. Maybe I caught her on a good couple days. But my wife has complained about my distance and aloofness once, last week. Just because she has been ultra distant and aloof herself does not mean I need to mirror her. It would be dense of me to ignore this feedback. It could be the angry ravings of a resentful MLC/WAS. Or it could be her communicating something.

So I’m going to keep trying this little 180 for now. Stay close, be warm, expect nothing. Do nothing over the top. Not going to initiate affection or drop a bunch of ILYs. See if things consistently improve a little bit. If not, scale it back. Most importantly, make sure to keep my emotions in check. This all most likely means nothing. Stay true to the DB path. Do NOT hand over control of my emotions. Be Clint Eastwood inside. Tune in to what is going on, but don’t react. AVOID DESPERATION.

I post a lot of needy desperate ramblings here. I ruminate and obsess. I know I come across as someone likely to do something incredibly dumb like write another apology letter right now. I’ve done a decent job with DB the past month. Especially in how much better I feel. Still holding that rope I admit.

If distance is an issue in my MR, I think it’s worth trying to address it with some 180s. A newbie like me is in danger of overreacting emotionally. A lot is at stake. But I’m willing to experiment a little bit. If the sitch turns I can pull back. This seems consistent with MWD’s teachings.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Journal -

W got angry about my distance a week ago so I've dialed back the aloofness. It's an experiment in progress.



An experiment in letting her reactions control your behaviors? This is what wasn't working before. It won't work now.

If the dog pees on the carpet and you give the dog a treat, the dog will continue to pee on the carpet. The dog is able to recognize that misbehaving equals a treat. You are giving W a treat and she is peeing on your carpet. Keep handing out treats and cleaning up pee, or stop handing them out until the dog pees outside. Your choice and your life.

It is hard and I still struggle with this too, but work on doing what you want, not what you think she wants you to do. This doesn't mean be mean, vindictive, or rude. Be nice, be friendly, be considerate. Just like you'd treat anyone else in your life.

Last edited by LB55; 05/29/19 06:12 PM.

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Journal -

Went to IC yesterday. He dropped a bomb on me of his own - he thinks my W is scared to talk to me.

I pushed back hard. Why would somebody with 3 small kids choose D over talking?

Well, I guess I can see it... I scared the hell out of her when I pulled over on the side of the road in March. This I agree with. Then I followed up with a series of long letters - apologizing for everything I had done, admitting to some abusive behavior, professing my life-long love for her, how I want a future together. Afterwards I asked to talk in person, as I intended to apologize F2F. This is when she said, "Maybe in front of your IC". Looking back at all this, I can see how she may have thought I was obsessive. She noticed my weight loss, said she was worried about me, asked me to see a doctor. The letters, intended to show her I cared and wanted her back, instead probably pushed her away because they were scary in their intensity.

Then I found DB...

I can understand now why she might be scared, but it still bothers me that she didn't open up a bit more beforehand. In March I think she started thinking about leaving, we had 2 months (since January) of not really talking about things. I thought she needed space, every time I approached her she seemed sad or hurt or angry, but maybe I didn't try hard enough. I know for a fact I didn't validate. I felt righteous, "I'm ready to talk and she isn't". We went on vacation and barely talked.

Then I had an aha moment in March, pulled over on the side of the road, and here we are. I've spent the month of May really just not acting on my intense emotions, showing W I am calm, steady, etc. June is arriving, and July I expect the BD.

So here I am again... I know I frustrate a lot of people on this forum with my posts. I don't mind the push back, this is a sounding board and I want to hear the opinions. I am working on myself. I know in the worst-case I can survive D. A month ago that scenario was so catastrophic I couldn't even think about it.

But I just don't agree that letting my W go right now is the "answer."

Jan-Mar: I assume she wants space. I probably went too far. I was basically DB'ing and not concerning myself with her feelings.
Mar-Apr: I freaked out, over-pursued, and scared the hell out of her.
May: I DB, she is upset about my distance.

Look... it's a pattern. I'm either distant, or she thinks I'm liable to flip out. I was basically DB'ing from Jan-Mar and it dug me a deeper hole in my M. I felt great about myself during this time, was exercising a lot, giving her a wide berth.

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do at this point.

- My W is not in an EA/PA. It's just not possible. She's always with the kids, or with friends, and she always send pictures when out with friends.

- If my W thought our M was abusive, she would not be upset about my distance.

I can only conclude that she is seriously unhappy and sees a life without me as a happier path. Why would that be? Perhaps because I have been either emotionally distant or writing crazy obsessive letters....

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Originally Posted by unchien
The letters, intended to show her I cared and wanted her back, instead probably pushed her away because they were scary in their intensity.

Yep. In five years on the board the letter has never worked and usually made things worse.
Originally Posted by unchien
I can understand now why she might be scared, but it still bothers me that she didn't open up a bit more beforehand. In March I think she started thinking about leaving, we had 2 months (since January) of not really talking about things.
I'd bet every dollar in the bank she's been thinking about leaving for years. These letters and car pullovers just give her ammo to defend her actions.
Originally Posted by unchien
So here I am again... I know I frustrate a lot of people on this forum with my posts.

Not as much as some other posters lol.
Originally Posted by unchien
But I just don't agree that letting my W go right now is the "answer."

Your looking for a reason to pursue her.
Originally Posted by unchien
Look... it's a pattern. I'm either distant, or she thinks I'm liable to flip out. I was basically DB'ing from Jan-Mar and it dug me a deeper hole in my M. I felt great about myself during this time, was exercising a lot, giving her a wide berth.
I'm willing to bet again she doesn't mind the distance she is just looking for some more ammo. You over analyze things too much.
Originally Posted by unchien
I'm not really sure what I'm going to do at this point.

Yes you are. You are going to pursue her again.
Originally Posted by unchien
- My W is not in an EA/PA. It's just not possible. She's always with the kids, or with friends, and she always send pictures when out with friends.

This I agree with right now.
Originally Posted by unchien
- If my W thought our M was abusive, she would not be upset about my distance.

Again I don't think she is upset. If she was she would pursue you.
Originally Posted by unchien
I can only conclude that she is seriously unhappy and sees a life without me as a happier path. Why would that be?
That's the story of everyone here. She's unhappy and it has to be your fault and she will get rid of you and some knight in shiny white armor will come and take all her problems away and they will get married and the blended family will be just like the Brady Bunch. Or at least that's what she dreams about every day.......

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LH19 -

You are right. I am looking for signs that she is open to talk. She gave me a sign. She said she wanted to talk about my distance. There are multiple possible interpretations.

1. One interpretation is that is a small sign of her pursuing. She wants to talk. Maybe she is scared of me getting over-emotional, so hasn't followed up. Maybe me *not* talking to her about this just perpetuates the problems we had in January to March.

2. Another way would be that she's just building up anger to fulfill her narrative, and I'm naive to think this will help.

Our M has major communication problems. What would be the DB approach to addressing this?

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You GAL like a mad man until she approaches you to either 1. D you or 2. Work on the marriage

If you want to have the talk then have the talk but you better wear a cup because there is a really good chance she is going to kick you in the nuts.

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Originally Posted by LH19
You GAL like a mad man until she approaches you to either 1. D you or 2. Work on the marriage

How does this resolve communication issues?

Our communication skills as a couple are terrible. We do not handle conflict well. We avoid. She gets angry and I defend and pull back. Both of us need to work on our part (IMO).

I can't make my W decide to change how she communicates. I can, however, change how I communicate. Example 180s for me would be:

- Stop avoiding conflict out of fear/anxiety
- Accept my W being angry, ask her about it, avoid problem solving, validate, let her vent
- Don't demand that we talk, just propose that we talk.
- State calmly my position (the distance in our R will not resolve on its own, we both need to work on it), but don't insist on any action by my W.
- Handle however the talk goes with emotional balance

Originally Posted by LH19
If you want to have the talk then have the talk but you better wear a cup because there is a really good chance she is going to kick you in the nuts.

Agreed. I'm aware this is likely to happen.

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Quote
If you want to have the talk then have the talk but you better wear a cup because there is a really good chance she is going to kick you in the nuts.


From someone who did this, I bet money on this. You want to experience getting crushed and feel like you're getting tossed aside like garbage; if you want to feel like the years of your M didn't matter one iota - then go talk to her.

I know that I am doing some level of my own projection, but from the scores of sitch's here and what happened to mine, the response from your W is quite predictable. The chances of you having the kind of conversation you think you're going to have and want is so darn small that if this goes the way you think it will go, that would be a huge outlier to how things generally unfold.

Be prepared to get decimated if you go this route. And I can tell you from personal experience, it was devastating. I am not trying to scare you, but just giving you an honest answer.


No one is coming to save you!

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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by LH19
You GAL like a mad man until she approaches you to either 1. D you or 2. Work on the marriage

How does this resolve communication issues?


You communicate by GAL. Actions communicate more than words.

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Originally Posted by unchien
How does this resolve communication issues?


Do you think she would be open to going to Retrouvaille? If so then please consider it. It will do wonders for your communication. One weekend at Retrouvaille will teach you more about listening and validating than a thousand books.


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U,

I absolutely understand what your saying and would agree with you 100% if I thought she wanted to work on the relationship.

Based on everything you posted I do not believe that to be the case.

Let’s just look at the letters alone. If she was interested in fixing the marriage she would have at least acknowledged the letters.

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She’s probably not open today to retrouvaille. Maybe down the road if we start working together on our M. I’m tentative about even pushing MC right now.

Just want to say here... I have no official word or proof that W is actually going to file. Lots of clues. Mostly just a lot of distance and a bit of strange behavior. No EA/PA. A book someone gave her.

I’m not looking to have a grandiose talk. I’m looking to open the door to some sort of communication. She indicated she wanted that.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Let’s just look at the letters alone. If she was interested in fixing the marriage she would have at least acknowledged the letters.

That’s what I thought too. Then I read them again after some time. And they sounded like begging and pleading. They sounded like a man desperate to save his M. They sounded like someone who would fall apart and couldn’t handle reality. They sounded like a man you may want to be afraid of... overly emotional, dramatic.

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U,

I don’t suppose you want to post them to see if it was as bad as you think?

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Worried about google.... maybe later I can paraphrase them

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Hey U -

I can speak from pre-DB experience in saying that pursuing for the talk does not work at all. If you were pursuing before, a 180 on that would be not to pursue. That's what I did. It took 8 weeks to show any effect.

W is talking now. Very limited, very sporadic. She still wants out. I have told her I'm not stopping her.

That's the only option I have left. I tried everything else.

My 2c

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Letter #1 (paraphrase):

- Sorry for my actions. Unacceptable. I've been hurtful and abusive.
- 12 examples. Here's what I did, here's how I imagine you felt, I regret what I did.
- It must be hard to live with me.
- I'm worried about impact on the kids.
- I'm going back to IC.
- I know if I don't change you might have to leave.
- I hope you forgive me some day.
- Hope you can share your feelings with me

Letter #2 (paraphrase):
- I love you (with list of 10 reasons why)
- I want to have a future together with you
- I hope we can work together to heal this hurt.

Letter #3 (paraphrase):
- Specifically addressing one event
- I need to change, I understand if you are afraid of me.

I'm pretty sure I don't need anyone to reply...... Really bad........ Wish I had found DB before this..............

It's been 6-7 weeks since. I asked to talk in person after Letter #3, she said in front of an IC.
.
.
.
.
.
So you tell me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure W is scared of talking to me.

How can I go back and say:
- I freaked out, and did the event in Letter #3, because I thought you were leaving.
- I wrote those over-the-top letters because I was scared of losing you. I ALSO wanted to apologize to you.
- I can see in retrospect how one-sided and awful those communications were.
- I am calm now, I accept any outcome to our M, but I want to try to stay together.

I just don't think DB'ing alone is going to address this issue. I can be AMOAFWL, but it's not going to matter if she's afraid of me.

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Yes it will matter. Because you can be a changed person regardless. Change yourself into someone she can be secure and safe with.


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S11 D16 D19
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U,

Why did you send the next two when she didn’t reply to the first one?

Not changing my mind. GAL like a mad men and use the time as a gift to try to establish yourself as a person who is not desperate and needy and who is in control of his emotions.

Again at some point she will either approach you to D you or to work on the relationship.

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Because I was desperate...

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We all made mistakes pre DBing. Can't change that. However, you can do better from this point forward!

Onward and upward!


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Originally Posted by SoTorn
Yes it will matter. Because you can be a changed person regardless. Change yourself into someone she can be secure and safe with.

SoTorn -

I agree. So how do I demonstrate I am safe and secure?

I want to talk (which she said she wanted to do 11 days ago) primarily to demonstrate that I am safe and secure. That I can handle my emotions, that I am neither distant nor histrionic.

DB’ing can come across as aloof and distant, or like someone not caring. It is kind of dangerous. I like the self-improvement aspect but I feel sometimes like it is only adding to the iciness in my sitch.

Tonight W was on the phone for awhile with one of her D’ed friends. I’m sure the subject was discussed. I won’t jump to any conclusions. W did the hermit act after the talk - went to the MBR, never engaged with me rest of the night. Four weeks ago I would be falling apart. Tonight I am... well... I am nervous, but I’m smart enough not to read anything into it. I can write out all the scenarios and any of them are plausible.

I don’t even really want to have a serious R talk, my idea was a small talk just to get my W to open up some deeper feelings. I think our communication is so screwed up we absolutely need counseling. I think it would help a lot. But she has to want to go. I was hoping some talk at home would at least initiate an interest, or at least show her that I care.

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U,

I really wish you would understand that time and space is the only thing that will change this around long term. Talking, letters and pursuit will just further seal your fate.

It's been 11 days. If she really wanted to talk she would have approached you by now. DB gives you the best chance to turn it around. Do You know how many guys came to the board and paid for programs that they admit made matters worse because it involved pursuit? Dozens.

Right now you are trying to use logic and reason with an emotional human being. If we could just talk we could work it out. You feel the need to do something. This is known as the "illusion of action". The only action you should be taking is going in the absolute opposite direction.

U the number one problem is that what you fear you attract and right now your irrational fears are getting the best of you.

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Originally Posted by unchien
She’s probably not open today to retrouvaille.


Don't assume, ask her. Tell her you've spoken to someone that has gone and that while the idea of the program is helping people rebuild broken relationships, the purpose of it is to build stronger communication. Because that is EXACTLY what it is. No matter what happens to your relationship, you will end up better communicators. And if she is not both feet out the door it may very well save your marriage. If she is both feet out the door then you will know after going, because in it you will share a LOT of thoughts and feelings. You'll know exactly where she stands.

About those letters, I'm sure you know it now but those were terribly damaging. Both in content and in the method of delivery (letter instead of face-to-face discussion). If you feel the need to write more letters then by all means do so, but DO NOT give them to her. Write them and burn them.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by SoTorn
Yes it will matter. Because you can be a changed person regardless. Change yourself into someone she can be secure and safe with.

SoTorn -

I agree. So how do I demonstrate I am safe and secure?

I want to talk (which she said she wanted to do 11 days ago) primarily to demonstrate that I am safe and secure. That I can handle my emotions, that I am neither distant nor histrionic.

DB’ing can come across as aloof and distant, or like someone not caring. It is kind of dangerous. I like the self-improvement aspect but I feel sometimes like it is only adding to the iciness in my sitch.

Tonight W was on the phone for awhile with one of her D’ed friends. I’m sure the subject was discussed. I won’t jump to any conclusions. W did the hermit act after the talk - went to the MBR, never engaged with me rest of the night. Four weeks ago I would be falling apart. Tonight I am... well... I am nervous, but I’m smart enough not to read anything into it. I can write out all the scenarios and any of them are plausible.

I don’t even really want to have a serious R talk, my idea was a small talk just to get my W to open up some deeper feelings. I think our communication is so screwed up we absolutely need counseling. I think it would help a lot. But she has to want to go. I was hoping some talk at home would at least initiate an interest, or at least show her that I care.


IMO this shows a lot of worrying about what she is thinking or doing and not focusing on yourself. I understand you're concerned about the outcome, but if you keep worrying about this kind of stuff it is going to seep out into your actions and she is going to sense that.

I wouldn't have any relationship talks unless she initiates them. If it was 11 days ago and she hasnt brought it up again, then she most likely doesnt want to talk.

This isn't easy. In my view detachment is probably the hardest thing I've ever done. BC I love my W. Still. But it has to happen.

Focus on you and your kids. Let her work her stuff out, man.

Just my opinion.

Said with much respect of course

Keep strong smile

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by unchien
She’s probably not open today to retrouvaille.


Don't assume, ask her. Tell her you've spoken to someone that has gone and that while the idea of the program is helping people rebuild broken relationships, the purpose of it is to build stronger communication. Because that is EXACTLY what it is. No matter what happens to your relationship, you will end up better communicators. And if she is not both feet out the door it may very well save your marriage. If she is both feet out the door then you will know after going, because in it you will share a LOT of thoughts and feelings. You'll know exactly where she stands.

About those letters, I'm sure you know it now but those were terribly damaging. Both in content and in the method of delivery (letter instead of face-to-face discussion). If you feel the need to write more letters then by all means do so, but DO NOT give them to her. Write them and burn them.

Isn’t asking to go to retrouvaille a massive form of pursuit?

The letters were bad. I won’t be writing anymore don’t worry about that.

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Originally Posted by unchien

Isn’t asking to go to retrouvaille a massive form of pursuit?

The letters were bad. I won’t be writing anymore don’t worry about that.


First let me explain to others reading that normally we do not suggest Retro unless you're beginning piecing. I am only suggesting it to you because A) you and your W have communication issues that it would be a huge help with and B) you have not been BD'd which means she is not quite both feet out the door.

As far as it being pursuit, I already explained to you that you present it to her as a way of improving your communications. How would that be pursuit? Right now you don't know where you stand. Is she going to BD you? Isn't she? Does she still love you? Does she love you but is not in love with you? You can either continue on waiting for the other shoe to drop, or you can present Retro to her and get your answer sooner rather than later.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Hey U how’s it going?

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Had a talk with W last night. I know this goes against the forum advice here but things were not moving in a good direction anyways.

I asked to talk about how my W said I had been distant for several weeks. She diverted into talking about going to MC soon. I offered to contact some, she said okay. This morning I find she's contacting one who specializes in collaborative D. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. She said he specializes in "conflict resolution and family communication."

Other than her blow-up 2 weeks ago about "my distance," which threw me for a loop because I couldn't figure out why she was so bothered, I've just seen no signs that W is invested in our M. All of our positive interactions seem aligned with having a healthy co-parenting post-D R. All of her secrecy about future plans, texting her friends, doing her own GAL activities (no EA/PA, just doing tons of stuff with female friends)... No interest in me. No asking me how I'm doing. No ILY. For some reason she still wants to do the morning hug thing.

Honestly I don't know what to do at this point. Just keep living like I'm deaf, dumb, and blind to the fact she wants out? It's so obvious that it's driving me nuts.... she is not having second thoughts and taking her time, she's lining up her ducks in a row. I guess I can look at the bright side that she wants to collaborate and not make this totally divisive...

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U,

The reason we advise against relationship talks is because they NEVER go the way the LBS envisions it. Unfortunately everything is so predictable us vet tend to know the outcome before it happens. I think it is time for you to start getting your ducks in a row. Have you spoken to a lawyer? Do you want to try to keep the family home?

Start to really think about how you want to build the next chapter of your life.

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I have had a couple free L consults. My understanding is there's no point retaining one until I need one.

I know that there will be negotiations about assets and custody. I have a rough idea what to expect. I know it will take over a year to close. I know I shouldn't leave the house. I know I'll need to be more involved with my kids' lives (hard with our current FT/SAH split). I know spousal support will be a complicated calculation. But I'm not worried about the finances, that stuff can correct itself over time. Finances will be extremely tight. I know I can fight for 50/50 custody. I know once BD hits I'll consider taking some parenting classes.

There's no way either of us can keep the home assuming a 50/50 asset split.

Other than that I'll have to GAL way more. I was hoping GAL would mean flex'ing work hours and spending more time with my W and kids, but instead it will morph into something different and that's okay too

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New link below...

Expecting BD soon #4

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