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#2847876 05/03/19 05:07 PM
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Looking for some advice here while I wait for my copy of DR to arrive...

W and I have 3 small kids (youngest 3) and moved about 2 years ago away from our support network. The combination of kids and the disruption of the move has been hard for us to overcome. W was building up a career, and the move halted that (although plans are she will ramp up again soon). My method of handling this was to draw closer, want to spend more time together and have more affection. I felt W draw away sometimes and I reacted by becoming emotional, which reinforced the distance. I was frustrated and sometimes said hurtful things (never name calling, never yelling, never shaming... just things like "we never spend time together" or "I don't know what you want" which was shaming and blaming). We ended up in MC last fall, where we mostly worked on me stopping pressing for affection, and me helping more with the house and the kids (as we never wanted this long term situation where I am the sole breadwinner and she is SAHM). Therapist pointed out that she needed to be more vocal about what she wants rather than holding in resentment. There was one night last fall where W broke down in tears because I kept pressing her for what she wanted, that I didn't understand and she wasn't communicated. I also started going to IC in the fall to work on my anxiety (which is my diagnosis) about my M and my estrangement from FOO. Periodically she accused me of withholding affection, which was tough because I felt like I couldn't initiate any affection without it being super awkward and weird.

Since January we barely talk about our relationship. A couple big fights she initiated, with sometimes strange accusations (like I am having an affair or hiding finances deliberately, both of which are not true). Then barely talking other than the niceties of being roommates and friends and co-parents. I tried to approach W a few times, but she lashed out in anger. I have wanted to just give her a hug and say I love her, but the prickliness has been off the charts. We went on vacation in early March and didn't really spend any couples time together, just swam with the kids. W also started IC in February.

No BD yet, but...I found evidence in late March she is considering D, and also believes I may have a mental disorder, and is documenting everything we talk about. The playbook for leaving someone like this would then be to plan out a safe BD - I literally have no idea if she's going to try to just take off with the kids, or kick me out, or what. We went on a date night and I confronted her in the car, not about the evidence, but trying to apologize for my role in what was going in our M. She was scared that I would do something crazy, and we drove home. I wrote a few apology letters, admitting that some of my behavior was emotionally abusive (especially pulling over in the car). No reaction, other than thanks. I also made it clear in these letters that I love her and want to repair things and work on our future.

April was a brutal month. I traveled for work twice, and she took the kids during spring break to see some friends (while I had to stay at work). The plus side was I was able to deal with the massive anxiety and hurt on my own, which was probably for the best, so I can prepare for the BD. I lost about 10 pounds. W was concerned and asked me to go the doctor, asked a lot of questions about the appointment.

We have plans to go to MC in June or July, once I finish some work travel. Alarm bells go off that this may be the BD coming, but I'm trying to stay calm and not obsess over what I can't control anyways. She seems checked out emotionally. I've heard her crying a bit in bed a couple nights recently. I'm learning not to try to figure out the "why" because it just leads to obsessive rumination.

I want to rebuild our marriage and make this work. I have made myself available and open to W. I suspect she's basically done and just planning out the BD at this point. She may come with accusations of abuse and make this a high-conflict situation. If those accusations come, I think I will drop my attempts to remedy, because I don't know how to even get around that. And to be clear, I am not concerned about these accusations, but if W has gotten to the point where she believes I am an abuser, then I need to move on for my own well-being and sanity.

I am at a loss what to do right now.

With 3 little kids and a full-time job, most weeknights consist of me coming home, spending ~90 mins with kids before bedtime, W and I go off for an hour and just chill on our own, then sometimes we sit and watch TV and have small talk like friends do. Mostly about what's going on in her life. W has been planning a lot of activities with friends on the weekend.

I just don't know what to do for 180s, for instance. If she sees me as some emotionally erratic crazy person, I can act calm. For house chores, I made an honest effort since last fall and it made no difference in our M. For watching the kids, I've talked to my manager about flex hours, and he was receptive, but W seemed ambivalent at best. I feel like I need to GAL but also worry that it will further disconnect us. If I spend evenings working on a hobby, or exercising, it will remove the time we do have. I can't ask to spend more time together. All she seems to want is more space, so I give more and more. It feels like I am just waiting for the guillotine to drop.

Things I have implemented so far:
- No more "I love you" texts or saying it. She hasn't done/said it since February.
- No more hunting for hugs (our current only form of affection). If she approaches, reciprocate.
- No more R talk, or even asking her what is going on.
- No more getting stressed around the kids - example, one of my kids may talk back to my W - in the past I would jump in and try to help discipline and would get stressed out if it wasn't the way she wanted me to do it, now I let her handle her situations, and I handle mine
- No more buying gifts when I travel for work. (will be implemented on my next trip).

I guess my fundamental question here is: Should I even be trying any of these DR techniques at this point? W is so disconnected, and potentially going to BD me with abuse allegations. I feel like I'm under the microscope, and a few more weeks or months may just lead me to burn-out and want out of M myself. Anyone else been in a similar situation?

Thanks for reading.

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Sorry you're here but you're in the right place.

Read and then re-read the links Cadet just posted - particularly Sandi's rules, pursuit and distance, validation, and boundaries. BD hasn't happened yet and you're sensing it's coming.

Give her tons of space and a wide wide berth. Focus on where you've contributed to the deterioration of the marriage and start doing some personal growth to improve yourself. Not to show her or anything, but for yourself. Be a stellar parent towards your kids and be a rock. Definitely no R talks and adding no pressure. Don't be a cold and mean person around her. Be friendly and positive.

This is a marathon! You need the DB techniques for yourself, not just for your marriage. These techniques are designed to give you space and time to figure out yourself and change the focus from your partner to you.

Keep posting! This is a great community and we're here for you.


No one is coming to save you!

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I love all this advice but get hung up on a couple points:

1. Personal growth - working full-time, coming home to help with kids and house... there is not much time left over. I'm reading a ton of self-help books and listening to podcasts when I commute. Not sure I can jump into a new hobby right now or anything involving a larger time commitment. I did start reaching out to some friends I lost contact with, which has felt really good.

2. Focus on where you've contributed to the deterioration - I'm sure this is common here, but I feel like I've tried to communicate and apologize for my part. But without feedback and communication it is really hard to know at this point. I have asked W to share her feelings, let me know what she needs, but she communicates nothing back. Housework and childcare are sticking points - but I feel like I have made some steps and they are likely not the only issue here. I know she wants to go back to work and I've tried to be supportive. It's easy to start chasing that feeling of "if I just fix this..." but I don't even know what to fix, and I'm not even sure it would help.

I'm kind of left with focusing on #1 (which might be a major component of #2) - this whole situation definitely has me anxious, stressed, a bit depressed, so maybe working on that first will have positive spill-over into #2?

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Definitely understanding the "no time" aspect, and also the communication part. It's so difficult to try and talk to someone who just won't communicate back...

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Also not sure how aggressively to 180, for instance. W may just be considering things right now, so making assumptions could be dangerous and backfire? It's just tough to know given our communication about anything R-related is effectively zero whether to further distance.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Also not sure how aggressively to 180, for instance. W may just be considering things right now, so making assumptions could be dangerous and backfire? It's just tough to know given our communication about anything R-related is effectively zero whether to further distance.



I think what I've picked up from some of the vets is to not worry about what S is thinking and focus more on you and your kids.

I've been going through this for a little while now - so far, no one thing I've experimented with (distance, unpredictability, trying to talk or not trying to talk etc) has been "the thing" that is the final nail in the coffin, or the thing that saves it all.

Rather unfortunately, I can tell you from experience what does not work - smothering, insisting on MC, begging, pleading, trying to convince or "talk it out", and believing that since S is in a better mood today that things are all better.

This is a long haul, it has dawned on me within the past 2 months that it is best to prepare for the worst while still hoping for the best.

Hope that helps a bit

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That helps thanks. Sorry you are going through this too, and for so much longer.

She did offer to back to MC in the summer and I said yes that I am interested. But not going to press for it anymore.

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Thank you - it's good to have a community of people here who understand what is going on. I felt at my worst for a solid 5 month period. Nobody in my real life understood what was happening either, there was no one to talk to and I didn't know where to turn.

Seems I found this place just when things were at the darkest, and just in the nick of time. It seems you have too...

I suggest to keep reading the resources, they have been a source of great relief and reassurance, especially in times when the surge of sadness or negativity sets in (and that is still quite often).

As far as MC goes - I suggested it once and was shot down by W - saying it won't fix everything after 2 or 3 sessions. That's when I started to realize I was going to have to let her go on whatever journey this is alone.

However, I got myself into IC, and that has helped me a great deal.

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Yeah IC helps. I really need to stop worrying about the M and worry about myself. I can’t tell if she’s in MLC or depressed or what but something is definitely off. I’m sure she’s struggling with a big decision and I’m kinda feeling like I have zero control. After a brutal April though it feels kind of liberating to realize I can’t control anything so may as well work on myself.

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What do I do if she is depressed?

Especially if it is driven by MLC or life circumstances? We moved away from family 2 years ago, and we have 3 little kids.

She seems to think I have a personality disorder. I have explored in detail in IC and don’t believe this to be true. But my W thinking this may also lead her to think it’s time to move on.

She looks to me like a person who desperately needs a hug or some support. But has drawn no closer and shows reluctance to go to MC.

Her sadness could be knowing the BD will be soon. In which case I really don’t have control. I don’t know. I don’t want to make a mistake and step away if what she needs right now is me to be closer. She seems to be suffering. No affection for months, no I love you’s, no sharing of feelings.

All I can think is to be positive and upbeat myself.

Anyone else experience something similar? Could it be just a phase? Or should I be expecting BD?

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Stop worrying about what she is doing and why she is doing it. Read all of the links Cadet posted. This is time to focus on yourself. Focus on being a man only a fool would leave. Be the best version of yourself possible. Project positivity always. Never show sadness or being down. Be happy with yourself. Love yourself. Recognize your toxic behaviors and stop them. Don't try and control your W. Just leave her be.

Get a hobby, start hitting the gym. Keep going to the IC. Be aware that MC will not help anything. It will just be a place for her to "let you get through the issue of her dropping BD with a counselor there". Also, in most cases, when a W goes to IC, the IC will tell them that if they are unhappy to just leave. MC may also say that. I know that when I first caught my wife cheating we went to one MC session. The MC literally said "you are young still, she doesnt want to be married, go get a D and get on with your lives".

They literally help nothing because they are all about the individual and not the marriage. GAL, detach, stop pursuit, stop any controlling behaviors. Drop the rope and let her go. You need to treat this as your M is already over. You need to get to the point where you are happy and know you will be fine and strong enough to either be alone or work on the M if your W decides to work through her own issues and come back to you.

Just remember that nothing you do will help the situation. You will NOT change her mind. The only thing that "may" work is you working on yourself and her seeing that you have positive changes and consistent positive behavior over a very long period of time.

My M did not survive my WWs affair. I decided that I am ok with D and seven months after confirmation of the affair, eight months after BD, my WW finally filed for D and we are now waiting. I was hurting badly until about January 2019. I have since completely dropped the rope and moved on. I am still stressed because I have to move out eventually, but I am in so much of a better place because I started focusing on myself.


M:16
T:21
H(me) 38
WW: 38
S11 D16 D19
Red Flags of A: March 2018
ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018
Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018
BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018
D Filed: March 27, 2019
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Thank you!

For positive changes I see 2 categories:
1. Work on self - exercise, meditate, hobbies, friends, be happier
2. Housecleaning, cooking, taking care of kids

I struggle on #2 because in the past I’ve made improvements and only made things worse. I’m not a slouch but I could do better. But from advice here I should not be doing those things for the wrong reasons. My kids are small and I work FT, I can’t do 50/50 on the housework and kids. I just am not sure what to do other than maybe do what I think is right, whether or not W is pleased.

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Just remember that your actions are for you. You are making changes to better you. None of your actions should come from a place of "if I do this then maybe she will notice".

Your actions should start from a place of "If I do this, I will feel better about myself". You are changing your behaviors for you and your kids and thats it. You are becoming the best version of yourself for you and your kids. You are showing your kids an example of how an adult handles a situation like this.

Its ok to be superdad to your kids because they need it right now. Just make sure that you are not trying to score brownie points with the W. Anything and everything you do should be to benefit you, make you feel better about yourself and get you to a point of full self love so that you can be the best version of yourself and the best father possible no matter what happens.

Keep doing this and eventually you will say to yourself "I got this, I don't need anyone's validation" and you will step off of the emotional rollercoaster and be in full forward sail with your life. Keep walking your path. Your W stepped off of the path, but you will keep moving on and moving forward, once in a while shining a light behind you to light the path, provided you want to do that. While you are shining this light your W may again find the path, work through her issues and catch up to you, to continue the same path through life.

Your W may never come back to the path. Or you may get so far down your path that you are comfortable without your W and stop shining that light behind you. I personally stopped shining the light. Because we all deserve better.


M:16
T:21
H(me) 38
WW: 38
S11 D16 D19
Red Flags of A: March 2018
ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018
Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018
BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018
D Filed: March 27, 2019
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I’m doing better about doing things for me and not W. Subtle but I can feel the difference. Even in the way I choose to make simple parenting decisions.

Should I be DBing this much before the BD? Can this backfire, for instance if she is maybe soul searching at the moment?

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You know something is up. Keep on DB. The sooner you start to DB the faster you will gain your emotional health back. Most people mess up and pursue for months after DB and push their WAS away faster. I did that the first couple of months. I went into full fix everything pursuit mode.

Thank god I found this forum.


M:16
T:21
H(me) 38
WW: 38
S11 D16 D19
Red Flags of A: March 2018
ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018
Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018
BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018
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Yeah I did pursuit mode for awhile and thank god I found this place. I feel like I’m regaining my sanity very gradually.

Something is definitely up. Sometimes I think I’m naive to think there’s not an A happening, but I do truly believe that. Not because I’m blinded by love, but it’s just not logistically feasible. Again, I could be naive.

It sounds like your advice though is regardless of the cause of her distance (EA, PA, MLC) that DB is the right path even if the BD hasn’t happened yet.

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Hi unchien,

Time and space. It'll be beneficial to give your W some space to figure things out without pressure. Pursuit and pressure can cause them to feel forced to do something they are unsure of but feel like is needed.

You mentioned abuse and not being able to do the 50/50 because you work full time. I am sure you can do some 180s in these departments to become more emotionally stable, to be the rock in this time. To not be dragged into this emotional tug of war with them. Your feelings matter, and as much as you want your W to validate them, you may need to suck it up for the time being and not let your emotions get in the way. Bout that 50/50... my W and I have recently physically separated going on a few weeks now and I have done the 50/50 split with her when it comes to taking care of our two boys, age 6 and 11. I just had them this past week, doing everything for them. This past weekend, I was at her place also spending a lot of my time with them. I am living my life, working full time, taking on more responsibility than I had before. I started with an in house separation and I began to do more with the kids.

Whatever you do, do it for yourself and the kids and make it stick to become a good habit.

My W is not SAHM, but I can imagine the expectation some H have on their W to do everything at home regarding the children. 3 young children sound like more than a handful for 1 person full time. I can imagine the burden your W bears. Now is not the time to grovel or become emotional about it if you sense something is wrong. She will know something is up with you. Do your part.

Take care of yourself, get plenty of rest for yourself and the kids. Also validation won't hurt when your W does talk, just listen.

Although my W and I have separated, I spent about an hour or more one day at her place listening to her talk about her work problems. And once I started asking questions, repeating what she said but in my own words, and I said something like this, it sounds like you're saying " You saw Lorie's boss going to bat for the new hire with no hesitation, and here with your own boss, it sounds like your boss wasn't going to bat for you and it made you feel undervalued, is this correct?" She said "Oh my God, yeah that is exactly it." Although I couldn't fix anything, I was there to listen. She told me thank you for being there to listen and being a sounding board. She already took action to discuss matters with her boss but just wanted someone to talk to. Funny thing is, you would think some of this is a one and done type ordeal, it is not. My W has a very demanding job and stressful. I hadn't taken out enough time every day to listen to her daily problems. I made it seem like because they happened daily, they weren't as important than some of the less frequent issues. 3 young kids at home, I bet your W is wanting her partner to be there without having to say anything. And you don't... don't say anything, just do your part for now and give her space and time. When or if she does open up, validate, listen.

Keep posting, keep reading, and keep learning.


H 49 , W 47
T 23, M 17
S11, S5
BD: 7/18
IHS: 7/18 - 3/19
Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19
Piecing: 4/19 - Current

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Had a great weekend, saw some friends for the first time in a long time. I really neglected male friendships and I can see how regardless of my M I need that support network in my life. W and I still talk pleasantly enough but not about our M.

Took care of some stuff around the house without asking, just did it, which felt good. Last night rather than watch TV with W I went and did some exercise and hobbies for about 90min. She ended up saying “Good night” when she went to bed which hasn’t been said in awhile (usually she just disappears). Could be nothing of course.

Still feels like everything is in limbo, like if I make one step in the wrong direction things will end. I still question whether I should be DBing when the BD hasn’t happened yet. Maybe I’m being too distant and cautious, and she will read that as me being checked out. Really tough.

DR arrives today. Looking forward to reading

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With the 3 kids... our plan has been for W to go back to work part time which she badly wants and I know how much it means to her. But yes for now things are imbalanced, although I do come home on time 95% of days and spend time with them and put them to bed. Sometimes W goes out to dinner, or has gone for a couple weekends with different friends who live out of state. I could of course do better, but so don’t take for granted everything W does for them.

I am doing what you suggested... when she talks, make eye contact, listen, validate, stay positive, resist the urge to problem solve. Sometimes I think I see positive signs but it’s hard to say, and they haven’t translated to any gains in our M. More just that we have more pleasant conversations about the news or what have you.

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And then I have moments like now where I'm completely miserable.

She has withdrawn affection for 6 months. No ILY, nothing more than a daily hug. No other touching. No checking in on my day, asking how I'm doing and following up. She has a book about divorcing someone with a personality disorder (I don't have a PD, and this hurts deeply that she thinks I do). She's playing the playbook of acting cool because your H might be crazy, and then dropping the hammer.

I wonder why I'm sticking around waiting for this BD.
- Maybe she will see that I have made positive changes, and her thinking will change.
- I don't want to be the one to initiate the break of this family, for my kids' sake.
- Maybe I still need time to work on myself before we plunge ahead.
- Maybe she will come down to D-Day and step back from the ledge, and have an epiphany.

The reality is I have basically zero hope right now. I see the value in the DB techniques for my own personal development, but I just don't see how they will save my M.

Part of me wants to just call W out on what is going on. Just confront her, "What's going on with our M?" Not because I want to save it, but because I'm tired of living a lie, feeling suffocated, unloved, misunderstood.

I'm so confused. I don't understand my W anymore. We used to be close.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Had a great weekend, saw some friends for the first time in a long time. I really neglected male friendships and I can see how regardless of my M I need that support network in my life. W and I still talk pleasantly enough but not about our M.

Took care of some stuff around the house without asking, just did it, which felt good. Last night rather than watch TV with W I went and did some exercise and hobbies for about 90min. She ended up saying “Good night” when she went to bed which hasn’t been said in awhile (usually she just disappears). Could be nothing of course.

Still feels like everything is in limbo, like if I make one step in the wrong direction things will end. I still question whether I should be DBing when the BD hasn’t happened yet. Maybe I’m being too distant and cautious, and she will read that as me being checked out. Really tough.

DR arrives today. Looking forward to reading


You've said various of the text in bold several times, which has me wondering, what do you think DBing is?

Read Divorce Remedy. The advice absolutely applies to spouses who haven't had a bomb dropped on them yet. In fact, the sooner you implement the advice, the better off you are. But do read the actual book. People who read only the forum sometimes get weird ideas about what the Michele Weiner-Davis actually recommends.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
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Awesome! I just got it in the mail today!

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You are going to go through the stages of abandonment ober and over again. Its a rollercoaster of emotions. The more you detach and focus on yourself, the less they will impact you. The rollercoaster of emptions is fleeting. But how fast you get off that rollercoaster depends solely on how much you focus and work on yourself.

I am reading The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. Its a great book. It talks about the stages you are going through, how to recognize them and get through them. There is a nice list of books to read on here. I dont have the link. Maybe someone can post it. I have read many of the books. They help tremendously. I suggest you do the same.


M:16
T:21
H(me) 38
WW: 38
S11 D16 D19
Red Flags of A: March 2018
ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018
Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018
BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018
D Filed: March 27, 2019
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W is uploading a lot of pictures to our Cloud account lately. I don’t think she realizes how obvious it is.

Last night? Pictures of tax returns, a picture of us at a wedding 12 years ago, and an email about how she was helping at the school a few months ago.

At what point should I retain counsel? It is so hard to act like everything is okay and I’m just moving on when I see this kind of stuff happening every day. And it freaks me out that she is documenting so much, especially for what it means for custody if we go down this road.

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Originally Posted by unchien
- Maybe she will see that I have made positive changes, and her thinking will change.


Not that I recommend initiating separation, but unfortunately situations very rarely turn around unless and until a separation happens. You might try to get out and GAL but honestly it's not giving the WAS the time and space they want. When living under the same roof you are just around each other too much.

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- I don't want to be the one to initiate the break of this family, for my kids' sake.


Then don't. You have the gift of time, use it.

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- Maybe I still need time to work on myself before we plunge ahead.


The work on yourself never ends.

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- Maybe she will come down to D-Day and step back from the ledge, and have an epiphany.


That's highly unlikely. It's very unusual for a WAS to "snap out of it". Usually their recovery is a long and slow process.

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The reality is I have basically zero hope right now. I see the value in the DB techniques for my own personal development, but I just don't see how they will save my M.


DBing rarely works as fast as people want it to. It can take years to turn a WAS around, and very, very few LBS's have that kind of patience.

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Part of me wants to just call W out on what is going on. Just confront her, "What's going on with our M?" Not because I want to save it, but because I'm tired of living a lie, feeling suffocated, unloved, misunderstood.


There's nothing fun about being stuck in limbo in a sexless marriage. I will say that you are unlikely to get a satisfactory response from her, but the conversation isn't going to wreck recon chances either so if you want to have that talk then do it. Be prepared to be disappointed with her confusing, ambiguous responses though.

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I'm so confused. I don't understand my W anymore. We used to be close.


Yes! Look at the timeline in my signature, I am STILL confused about what happened to the loving wife that thought I hung the moon and would chew her own arm off if it meant saving our M. THAT wife is long gone, and so is yours. That is very difficult to come to terms with, it takes time.

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W is uploading a lot of pictures to our Cloud account lately. I don’t think she realizes how obvious it is.


She knows. She's prepping you for BD.

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At what point should I retain counsel?


Well, you don't really need a L right now but if it might bring you some piece-of-mind then do it.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I read some of your timeline, some things sound so familiar. My kids are a bit younger (7,5,3). Did you ever understand, after the D, why your W made that decision?

I did speak to a L for free consult. It made me feel better about what I can expect financially and custody-wise. Nothing I have done would justify something other than a standard arrangement.

I feel like it is unfair for W to have me in limbo. Probably since January she has obviously been detaching from me. No ILY, no touching other than a daily hug, no sharing of feelings. She does secretive stuff, on her phone a lot. I found a stashed Xanax Rx. In the past she would have shared these sort of things. In the meantime, I have reached out several times (usually in writing or e-mail) wanting to talk about things, to understand her feelings better, to work on things. Even so I fight that instinct to reach out just ONE more time:

"I feel like we are in limbo. I love you. I feel like we are drifting apart and I would like to work on our M together in MC if that is a goal you share also."

Then I read the above and think... she's checked out, what the heck am I doing? I am in denial of reality! She agreed to MC in June/July only as a way to let me down easy (she expresses no desire to work on things), I've already made it clear so many times that I'd like to work on things, she will treat this as pressure, it will reaffirm her belief that she needs to leave, I am weak and needy and dependent.

Ultimately like you and many others are telling me, this M is >99.99% over. As I understand it, the beauty of DB'g is that it is somewhat outcome-independent -- whether we reconcile or split, I will be in a better place if I can stick to these principles. I have a lot of fear about the future - going from sharing a beautiful home with happy kids to living alone and seeing my kids sporadically.

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Personally,

If your W is SAHM, her job is to take care of the house. It is different if both parents work, then help out.

When you get home, take the kids and go do something fun with them. Give W a parenting break.


H:"W, I am taking the kids to the pool for a few hours."


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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W is SAHM but our plan when moving 2 years ago was that she would ramp to PT work (2 days / week). Her career is important to her and she gets a lot out of it. I am fully supportive of this, although I'm sure I could have helped her accelerate the process by now so that she was up and working.

I don't see it as her job 100% to take care of the house, but yes it is also not realistic to do 50/50%. I am proud of incremental changes I have made, trying to be better, but it may be too little too late. I am by no means a lazy dad who just turns on sports or whatever when I get home.

Many nights I do watch the kids while W takes a break before they go to bed. Unfortunately for a few reasons there really isn't time to take them anywhere, but I will spend time alone with them while she rests, or calls a friend, etc. W has gone some weekends to visit friends (although she canceled one last month which is a major red flag), or sometimes meets a friend for dinner at night or on the weekend.

If the issue was entirely about the household chores & kids, I think W would be more open about talking about how we could change things. Recently I worked out with my boss that I would leave work early some days so I could spend more time with my kids, and W had zero reaction.

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Just journaling here...

She seems so depressed. Sometimes I wonder if she needs my help. Maybe she thinks she is depressed about our M but it is really depression due to adjusting to moving with 3 small kids away from family. I want to be there for her. I don’t want to turn my back if she is in need. I really don’t know what do be doing. She seems so down around me, but even around friends and our kids her happiness seems fake or forced, like she is trying hard.

Sometimes DB’g feels passive-aggressive. I still feel that pull to her, even when she doesn’t say hello goodbye or show me any affection. Maybe we are in some affection standoff and I need to somehow solve the puzzle.

Then I think for awhile like this and go on and on and realize relationships shouldn’t be so hard. It is just so frustrating to feel like if we worked on our R we could get through this tough parenting phase and come out stronger. 15 years together and she can’t tell me what’s wrong... after the first 13 years were so good (at least for me). Why not go to counseling and just air it all out and see if we can’t fix things? Instead of harboring resentment. I didn’t cheat, we had a few fights, I really don’t understand what is going on... sigh...

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Originally Posted by unchien
Just journaling here...

She seems so depressed. Sometimes I wonder if she needs my help. Maybe she thinks she is depressed about our M but it is really depression due to adjusting to moving with 3 small kids away from family. I want to be there for her. I don’t want to turn my back if she is in need. I really don’t know what do be doing. She seems so down around me, but even around friends and our kids her happiness seems fake or forced, like she is trying hard.

Sometimes DB’g feels passive-aggressive. I still feel that pull to her, even when she doesn’t say hello goodbye or show me any affection. Maybe we are in some affection standoff and I need to somehow solve the puzzle.

Then I think for awhile like this and go on and on and realize relationships shouldn’t be so hard. It is just so frustrating to feel like if we worked on our R we could get through this tough parenting phase and come out stronger. 15 years together and she can’t tell me what’s wrong... after the first 13 years were so good (at least for me). Why not go to counseling and just air it all out and see if we can’t fix things? Instead of harboring resentment. I didn’t cheat, we had a few fights, I really don’t understand what is going on... sigh...


I know how you're thinking and feeling. I did the same thing and still do sometimes with W - she is still in a depressed state since 8 months ago. I tried many times pre-DB and pre-understanding asking what was wrong, offering to go to MC or IC, asking to talk about M, etc etc. All of it I now know was pressure. It was perceived that way from W view, and not in the being helpful way I was viewing it.

The trick from what I can tell is to somehow detach lovingly. this is what I'm working on. To show you're still there for her without expectations but also that you wont be around to take all the projected blame when that time comes

Keep hanging in there - don't forget to focus on you.

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Thanks. Detaching lovingly with no expectations is hard. I find myself detaching with a hint of passive aggression and “I’m starting to move on with my life.” That balance point is tricky.

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My W and I have been together since I was 19 and I don't think we both matured as two separate independent individuals would have. I mean, we had and hadn't. In the beginning, I could not lose the girl. When I was that 19 year old, I vividly remember going over to my best friend's house and she would drive by his house and ask if I was there since she was looking for me and I would tell him not to tell her I was there. I kept her chasing and I wanted some time to hang with my boys.

Back then I had my own life and slowly invited her into my world where she met my friends, did the things I did, found out what I liked.. I'm sure you guys have been there. What can we do now to bring back this excitement and thrill of living life for ourselves and to share that with those around us?

I'm here alone in my apartment with my kids in the big dream house with their mom and she facetimed me earlier with a grim face because she couldn't park the car in the garage right and almost hit the side column. She chose the style of the garage door and is now not liking what she chose. Her driving is bad.. The point of this is that I am choosing to be happy with less, much less. I am alone right now but not lonely. My boys are with their mom, safe and happy. I do miss them and love them, that is always going to be constant. My W will have her days and be sad or upset.

I talk about the past because I used to think a certain way, that we were supposed to be there for one another to help the other person through thick and thin. We were to be the crutch for one another, I thought this was what love is. She falls down, I pick her up. And vice versa. I no longer have this expectation. I am free and so is she. I became my own burden and in doing so, I became her burden as well. We want partners we want to lift up but not have to carry. This is just generally speaking. I do feel some type of way if there is something catastrophic that happened I think it's a moral duty to stand by your partner when they can no longer take care of themselves physically or if something happened like an accident. I hear many stories of men having accidents and got hurt and somewhere down the road, the W bounced. Now I don't know if this lead to losing a job etc, but it shakes things up and for men who don't usually talk or show the W everything is okay, they start to feel a certain way.

Unchien, its hard to let go of what we want. We want to fix it on our timeline because we are the ones hurting. Your W most likely was hurting far longer and somewhere along the line things got too complicated. Maybe you didn't pick up on the signs or didn't think they were real or that important. Maybe your W held it in to keep the peace. So are we going to blame her and say its her fault for holding it in, if that was the case? I had to get used to the idea that my W did not want any help because she felt like I was being controlling, it was because of what I wanted, it was always me, me, me...

You can still be there, be the rock. Don't get caught up in the emotional turmoil. Empathize with your W, you can show her you still care, respect her boundaries and yours and be the man. Sometimes they need to figure it out on their own. We can not save them. If she wants out, you respect her wishes.

I've had months of being teary eyed and crying because I was remorseful and realized what I was doing wrong. I am in the process of correcting my behavior. I am living in the moment, and I embrace the good with the bad.

At first I had to gain control of my emotions. I too wanted to work on not being passive aggressive. I remember from months ago when AS told me I was being PA or when Steve told me I wasn't detaching correctly. I remember being at work and using thought stopping a lot to make it through the day. I would wake up and say a little prayer on how I wanted to be and named top things that would not get me down. W was always one of those things I said I would not let get me down. Sometimes they were my own behaviors. Wanting to control the situation became wanting to show W I heard her, and I could understand, although maybe I didn't agree. Some things I would agree on like if she wasn't happy and wanted out, I agreed. I too wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't want to be with me. Not said with malice.

Be patient with yourself, shift more focus on yourself, create short term goals and long term. GAL and live healthy in all aspects. Also, realize there is no magic bullet. Your reality may sink in a little better once you realize there is no magic bullet so you won't go chasing rainbows and unicorns, but do some real work for improvement.

Open mind unchien.


H 49 , W 47
T 23, M 17
S11, S5
BD: 7/18
IHS: 7/18 - 3/19
Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19
Piecing: 4/19 - Current

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Adam you have no idea how much you just help me today with your perspective. With creating the balance between passive aggressiveness, letting go, detaching and empathy

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Originally Posted by Adam04
Unchien, its hard to let go of what we want. We want to fix it on our timeline because we are the ones hurting. Your W most likely was hurting far longer and somewhere along the line things got too complicated. Maybe you didn't pick up on the signs or didn't think they were real or that important. Maybe your W held it in to keep the peace. So are we going to blame her and say its her fault for holding it in, if that was the case? I had to get used to the idea that my W did not want any help because she felt like I was being controlling, it was because of what I wanted, it was always me, me, me...

You can still be there, be the rock. Don't get caught up in the emotional turmoil. Empathize with your W, you can show her you still care, respect her boundaries and yours and be the man. Sometimes they need to figure it out on their own. We can not save them. If she wants out, you respect her wishes.


Thank you Adam. It is hard to let go. I don't blame her for holding it in. I don't blame her if she is depressed. I don't blame her if she wants to walk away. I don't blame her if what I have done is too much for her and she can never view me the same way again.

I struggle with how to show her I care, but also respect her boundaries. I feel like respecting her at this point is letting her go. Will she interpret this as me giving up? I do try to listen and validate when we talk, which is mostly about the kids and her day. I catch myself thinking about changing the subject, and I stop and listen, and give her eye contact, and ask follow-up questions, and avoid problem-solving.

She has this simmering resentment - this morning I took a video at my son's school and the angle was kind of lousy, and she responded with a passive aggressive message, not directly saying it was a lousy angle, but implying it. It's just another gut punch - it's not as if I TRIED to make a lousy video. I said Sorry. I'm not sure I should have - of course I could have taken a better video, but I tried - and saying Sorry feeds into her resentment.

I'm afraid to give her space. I'm afraid it will be interpreted that I don't care. I'm afraid that she is depressed and I need to reach out and be there in some way for her.

I'm afraid to reach out. I'm afraid of her resentment and anger. I'm afraid of screwing up, or of accelerating this process, because right now I have the gift of time.

Like so many people here, I came her hoping to "bust" my divorce. But really DB'g is about working on yourself and letting go. The odds are just incredibly low that things turn around for our M. That being said, this is what I need. I've been going to IC and struggling with emotions, and I find the DB techniques much more useful than IC. Just working on focusing on myself, step by step.

Originally Posted by Adam04


I've had months of being teary eyed and crying because I was remorseful and realized what I was doing wrong. I am in the process of correcting my behavior. I am living in the moment, and I embrace the good with the bad.


I'm curious what you did wrong? For a long time I blamed myself 100% for things falling apart. Lately I realize it's 50/50. My need for physical intimacy in our relationship does not require apologizing. My frustration and anger and passive aggressive behavior when we could not work things out does require apologizing. I don't apologize for feeling like W stopped paying attention to me, but I do apologize for my emotional histrionics (like pulling the car over on the side of the road) in reaction.

I understand things I did wrong. I also feel like there is a lot I don't understand. Even in our first go-round in MC, I felt like the things she pointed out (housework especially) were not REALLY the root cause. Because I made honest efforts and things got worse.

I don't know... I'm not 100% to blame. Sometimes I feel angry that some of my needs were ignored too.

What sort of behavioral changes are you making? I struggle to identify concrete steps I can take, because I don't feel like at the moment I do incredibly problematic things.

I am REALLY fighting the urge to reach out to her and say "I'm concerned about you, you seem very sad. I care about you and I'm here for you."

Originally Posted by Adam04


At first I had to gain control of my emotions. I too wanted to work on not being passive aggressive. I remember from months ago when AS told me I was being PA or when Steve told me I wasn't detaching correctly. I remember being at work and using thought stopping a lot to make it through the day. I would wake up and say a little prayer on how I wanted to be and named top things that would not get me down. W was always one of those things I said I would not let get me down. Sometimes they were my own behaviors. Wanting to control the situation became wanting to show W I heard her, and I could understand, although maybe I didn't agree. Some things I would agree on like if she wasn't happy and wanted out, I agreed. I too wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't want to be with me. Not said with malice.

Be patient with yourself, shift more focus on yourself, create short term goals and long term. GAL and live healthy in all aspects. Also, realize there is no magic bullet. Your reality may sink in a little better once you realize there is no magic bullet so you won't go chasing rainbows and unicorns, but do some real work for improvement.

Open mind unchien.


I don't find myself being super PA. I just FEEL like giving distance and space itself is PA. Last night I said, "I'm going to the other room to exercise" and went and did it. Was that PA? It felt like it to me.

I do fight the urge to try to control the situation. Letting go feels like not caring. Or maybe it feels good to be less co-dependent. Maybe I'm in a bad M and for my own health this will be for the best. I don't know. I love my W, but the woman I see is not the W I once knew.

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I'm starting to doubt whether I even want to stay in this M. Is this normal? Do these feelings come and go?

Does it really matter why she is checking out?
- MLC
- Adjustment disorder w/depression or anxiety due to our move w/3 little kids
- Her thinking I have a personality disorder ***
- Affair
- Not feeling loved or appreciated?

*** The most likely one

When someone doesn't love you, isn't there for you, ignores you, doesn't validate you... what's the point? When they respond to you with indifference, or resentment, what is the value? Am I supposed to interpret these moments as signs I need to change, or just evidence that the R is over? Yes, I can analyze my role in the deterioration of our R, but honestly I do resent her lack of awareness of her contributions. I do feel like I have worked harder to identify problems than she has. What am I getting out of this? Even if the BD never comes, I cannot endure this much longer. I don't apologize for my need to feel loved and appreciated in a R.

Can anyone else here relate? Do you guys DB even when you know the M is over, DB just for its own sake to improve yourself? Or should I be mixing in something other than DB also?

Sorry for the incoherent rambling... so many thoughts swirling around in my head.

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I guess my point here is:

If my wife thinks I'm just a bad person, or I have some mental disorder that she cannot tolerate, whether or not those things are true, DB'g is *not* going to change her mind.

In which case, this is all about healing myself, right?

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U,

You are kinda all over the board right now and being new I think your under the impression that there is a magic bullet that is going to save your marriage. Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.

Just from reading your last couple posts I can tell your number one problem is your wife doesn’t respect you. If she doesn’t respect you she will not love you in the way your looking from your wife.

You send her a photo and she criticizes the angle. You don’t apologize and she doesn’t get pictures anymore. No one will ever say or do anything to you that you don’t allow them to.

Deep breaths, work on yourself and command respect.

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I'm thinking a lot about these things too, and have thought about them for quite a while. With the suddenness of my situation, I determined W's sudden change of heart within a 2 week period last year was at least in some part my fault, some part hers. It was also my depressed state due to a work situation I felt I had no control over, and also her entering into a MLC-like state.

I would suggest to read the MLC resources here. All of them. They have helped me get a handle on what I'm dealing with and how to go about applying it IRL. Maybe not everything will apply, but it might help you begin to see an MLCers viewpoint, how they think, what their perspective is. That was what was missing for me - once I saw it (kind of) from W's angle, I let go of the outcome and things calmed down (for me)

Serenity and strength smile

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,
You are kinda all over the board right now and being new I think your under the impression that there is a magic bullet that is going to save your marriage. Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.


Thanks LH. You are right I am a basket case.

I would love a magic bullet! But I know that doesn't exist. I guess I'm struggling with the paradoxical thinking here that you have to let go of expectations of your M, in order to have a chance to repair your M. It feels very Zen. I realize no matter what I do, the M may be gone, and I need to accept that.

Originally Posted by LH19

Just from reading your last couple posts I can tell your number one problem is your wife doesn’t respect you. If she doesn’t respect you she will not love you in the way your looking from your wife.

You send her a photo and she criticizes the angle. You don’t apologize and she doesn’t get pictures anymore. No one will ever say or do anything to you that you don’t allow them to.

Deep breaths, work on yourself and command respect.


Any advice on where to read up on commanding respect (either in these forums or elsewhere)? I admit I struggle with this one.

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Originally Posted by IronWill

I would suggest to read the MLC resources here. All of them. They have helped me get a handle on what I'm dealing with and how to go about applying it IRL. Maybe not everything will apply, but it might help you begin to see an MLCers viewpoint, how they think, what their perspective is. That was what was missing for me - once I saw it (kind of) from W's angle, I let go of the outcome and things calmed down (for me)


Thanks I will check these out, and hope they help weather the storm.

I'm having a hard time thinking of this as W's MLC. She has a book about divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder hidden away. Whether or not I have those (I'm pretty sure I don't, as I go to IC and have had this confirmed), it kind of tells me what she's thinking and why she may be so distant (the textbook way to respond to BPD/NPD is to "manage" them in neutral, unemotional ways). She's not having an A, she's still a great affectionate mom with the kids, she doesn't go out and party or have any sudden behavioral changes. She's just more secretive now and distant, and affection is gone.

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U,

I always suggest to newbies to start with "How to be a 3% Man" available on Amazon.

How are you so sure she is not having an affair?

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Originally Posted by unchien


Thanks I will check these out, and hope they help weather the storm.

I'm having a hard time thinking of this as W's MLC. She has a book about divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder hidden away. Whether or not I have those (I'm pretty sure I don't, as I go to IC and have had this confirmed), it kind of tells me what she's thinking and why she may be so distant (the textbook way to respond to BPD/NPD is to "manage" them in neutral, unemotional ways). She's not having an A, she's still a great affectionate mom with the kids, she doesn't go out and party or have any sudden behavioral changes. She's just more secretive now and distant, and affection is gone.


That last sentence could have described my situation to a T. W actually said to me that she had to "detach" and gave me a laundry list of problems I had.

I did not react.

I listened, validated, and apologized (once, sincerely and calmly) - but only for those problems I knew I had. Told W I was working on them and it would take time.

W was also worried about 25 year in the future- couldn't see us together for that long.

My response:

I'm not thinking about 25 years in the future. I'm thinking about today. When tomorrow happens, I'll worry about tomorrow, then.

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U,

Listen to LH.

This is going to be a long ride and you need to pace yourself and breathe. There is a lot to learn and as time goes on, you pick up on more and more.

I had a gazillion things to respond with but it is a bit much and overbearing. MWD says that it only takes one to make change and it can start with you. You change yourself, you change the dynamic between you and others.

How does that relate?

Example is your W disrespecting you about the video. She disrespects, you say sorry, you tried etc etc. As the man, you need to know when to stand up to your W and get your b@lls back and the way to do it. Not yelling or cursing or threating. You can set a boundary. Read up on Sandi's posts. There are red flags with your W. Being secretive, resentment, disrespect.

You start to stand up for yourself and set your boundaries, it changes the dynamic between you and W.

LH pointed this out immediately and I noticed it too. It has everything to do with respect or lack thereof.

So from your reply to mine, you say you don't blame your W but you do have some resentment towards her. Any way you word it, you have negative energy you need to let go. Right now you're feeling like it's W fault and she is feeling like this is yours. How do you objectively fix this? You don't. Give it time and space. Cool off.

I know sometimes things can be taken to extremes and we can only express so much online where the true meaning of things can get confused with something else. I see deflection right now and I see confusion. You need to understand your W feelings are real to her. That book she has about YOU being narcissistic is real to her. Even though you say your IC cleared you of this, IMO it doesn't help anything between you two. It may make matters worse because now in your head you know its not your fault. There's a thing about being Mister Right all the time, he's not very good with women.


In your posts, there is a lot of struggling with the emotions. Another good book you want to read up on to identify behavior to work on is the NO MORE MR NICE GUY book. You need to drop the fear and stop being afraid. As the man who needs to be the rock, the logical thinking person right now in the relationship you need to stop being too emotional. Think and act. Stop feeling. I know it's hard but you need to do it for yourself. Google, ask here. find ways.

I understand where you are coming from. You want to bust the divorce but feel like it was some sort of click bait. There is no magic bullet, no quick process. There's other programs out there and you wonder which one to follow.

You pick a plan that you think is right and you go all in. This process is counter-intuitive and its hard to grasp in the beginning. What is right doesn't feel right. Letting go for a chance to get back can sound so backwards.



Quote
I'm curious what you did wrong?


Short answer? Everything.

You should be aware that there are root causes to everything and your first MC is your first. Be patient.

You have right to feel the way you do. For now though, we need to set some of those feelings aside. I understand you want W to know how you feel. You want her to see how much pain this is, you feeling neglected.

You say your need for physical intimacy doesn't need apologizing for. Well, do you know your W love language and have you been filling up her love bucket so that is freely reciprocating? I don't think so, so this goes back to YOUR expectation without looking at your inactions.

Quote
What sort of behavioral changes are you making?


This one I had started a list and then it wasn't specific enough. I am more patient. I am more confident. I am not quick tempered. I've been practicing validation with everyone the last 8 months. I am a better listener. I am better at not being passive aggressive. When W says something disrespectful or does something, I act in the moment and say something to address it. And then I move on. My attitude in life has changed. I was more a pessimist and see the error of my ways. I spend ALOT more time with my boys. I am more aware and in the moment. Something that I said could wait for the weekend I don't wait. Who knows if that moment ever comes or not. I am in the present. I live by my morals as a Christian and have re-evaluated how I see things. At work, at home, with friends, I try to empathize and put myself in other people's shoes. I've made effort to wake up with a better mentality. I'm big on if you don't know the answer, you go look for it. Google is your friend. I find peace at being alone. I read a lot more and watch a ton of self help videos. I am not sitting waiting for something to happen. I am moving, working out, doing things.

Between W and I, I don't look at being mister fixer. I don't say this is all her fault or blame her. I lost some of the resentment. I'd rather just know the facts and not let it take me down. There is still some emotion like anger but not the raging beast that was there in the beginning. I am accountable for my own actions and I am humbled. I am learning to live again and I don't like to use the word alpha male but I think about something, make a choice and deal with the consequences. I don't do it for other people or their approval but try to align it with who I am. I'm not trying to be Mister Perfect and at the same time I still want to strive to be a better me. I'm taking back control of who I am. I'm not codependent on W for my happiness. I'm not that needy guy from many months ago, the one that makes me want to throw up thinking about. I lost the fear of losing her, losing control. What makes life exciting is some of the unknown. You either have anxiety from it or excitement. I choose excitement. This is reflective of your outlook on life.

I don't know if all this helps or gives some glimpse or not. I am a work in progress. It's a little over 8 months from BD for me and I know I still have a long way to go. I am patient with myself and take it one day at a time. I still have a hard time sleeping at night but my mind doesn't race about the marriage. I have good sleeps, just not long enough ones.


This is all still so fresh for you, be patient. give yourself time to learn and figure out what to do. Understand that people change, their thoughts and feelings change. What are you doing to help change this in a positive light for yourself and those you care about?


H 49 , W 47
T 23, M 17
S11, S5
BD: 7/18
IHS: 7/18 - 3/19
Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19
Piecing: 4/19 - Current

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Unichen and Ironwill. Have you been living in my house? I am in the same exact circumstances as you. My WAW is a behavioral specialist.  I found out back in Jan she was having an IA/EA online with Chris Soules from The Bachelor. She was also looking into briefly Child Custody Laws, but gave up on it. I also found emails of hers writing to newspapers article publishers, about me being bi polar, which I am not, have never been, nor never diagnosed for such, despite seeing multiple mental healthcare providers, LSCW's, Psychodiagnostics for learning impairments, Auditory Specialists for learning and hearing impairments, and Neuro Assessment, over the course of our marriage in the last 10 years to assess some of my mild ADD characteristics, and work performance. I started looking into this within our first two months of marriage when I was laid off from my new job for something beyond my control.

W even went as far over the last year to enroll in an emotionally abusive course online. She has also looked into whether I wether bi polar people are eligible for retaining firearms. Being a 2nd amendment supporter, and firearms owner, since discovering all of this, I have moved mine out of the house to someplace safe during IHS. Ironically she is still retaining her firearms, after I advocated she learn how to become proficient with it for 3 years until BD, and now wants to learn how to use it with younger brother's ex GF who is now divorced, whom my WAW is hanging around with ALOT. She even looked into a book called Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Boarderline or Narcissistic personality disorder. I have read so much stuff on narcissist empath conflict that for the most part, unless you are malignant on these things, anyone can have small tendencies. But i notice the "relationship script" always victimises and props up the empath who are typically women, but not always

Around Dec I took the initiative to read one of my W's books that she never read called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage by Leslie Vernick. Good book. Gave me a lot of insight to some behaviors I was unawaringly doing. I made a commitment to 180 on a lot of the ones I eventually realized I was doing.
After reviewing my Neuro health records from 10 years ago, it was noted that I may have slight characteristics of BPD. So I Iooked into it further, and decided to take action. I am seeing a BPD coach for emotional regulation. It has been helping as a journaling outlet, and changing limiting thought patterns.

Despite my personality being pretty  normal, fun, exciting, flamboyant and a little loud and bubbly. Under stress or when emphasising something. I have a tendency to get a little loud, adamant and firm at times. I decided to get introspective not only about some of my own behaviors, my emotional style, temperament, habits, etc.

I can be repeatedly critical of others when their habits and lack of consideration affects my time, organization, and convenience. (I can only say it nice so many times.) I have since stopped that, and just leave wife messes for herself to clean with no more criticism. My temperament is relatively even, with an occasional flare up. As I have detached, gone to therapy and have been introspective, I have been much more emotionally centered. DB principles, validating and therapy has been helping me hold back verbalizing emotions that do not serve a good purpose. I deal with them by writing and journaling the specific side of me, or behavior I am having an issue in getting centered, balanced, and revealing. Its good practice for emotional integration.

I find it amazing and amusing how some sensitive personalities can consider other personalities, just because they are loud and a little flamboyant, to be toxic and abusive, just because one is more openly emotional, and the other is more reserved. I still honestly believe that there are personality types out there that can blend, clash, or accomplish both with couples. Some people have better control over their emotions than others in intimate relationships. My idea of talking loud, maybe someone else's idea of yelling. I have been a little verbally abrasive in the past, but IMHO not abusive. But with the other WAS its all about their perception. There are many other perceptions to me that are quite askew that we don't agree on with related issues as well.

A lot of books on emotional abuse give good insight on behaviors you may or may not be aware you are doing. But I am also going to say this. I believe once a WAS is repulsed by you for whatever reason. (Lack of attraction, didn't pay her enough attention, insert whatever justification.) They will ingest all of this material IMO, feel empowered, validated, and justified in putting a label to their "treatment of victimization" and have us shoulder all the blame for everything in the marriage. Try to be aware if your behaviors that do apply whether intentionally or unintentionally and 180 on them. Be nice, play nice, be firm and assertive, but maintain composure and emotions at all costs. Think Patrick Swayze from Road House. BE NICE Just don't be a doormat.

My W is having an MLT, (Mid Life Transition) doesn't acnowkege or empathize with anyone else's position but her own, doesn't know who she is, where she is going, what she wants to do, how much she wants to make, who she wants to be, how to be happy, or where to live. But apparantly I am to blame for it all. It all literally changes by the week now. Last 7 months she wanted to quit her job because she wasn't happy, and wanted to work from home. Today she tells me she's getting a raise and she's staying. You can't fix them, nice them, mean them, convince them. Just let them go. Be happy, do happy, plan happy for you. They have to figure out they're dynamics, trauma, childhood, path, life, etc. I'm starting to believe their initial BD justification list is nothing more than faults that any human being could have at any point in their life. They just needed reasons and validation to their feelings that they can't event explain why they are feeling. But... If you have behavioral issues. Do 180 them.

I'm sorry that you are going through this.
What I can say is that not only on just your personality type, but your childhood upbringing, and how you were raised, some of the things you unawaringingly carry over from your parents eventually seep out in your marriage, and the dysfunctional dynamics of how you interact sometimes with your spouse

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IHCLACS...I'm paddling the same boat as you. I have been informed that my wife cannot heal in the house we live in because of my years of abuse. There are definitely things that I was aware of - I grew up in an abusive household, but then so did my wife. I am not the original abuser but I have definitely contributed to things that needed to change.

My wife told me 18 months ago that she no longer wanted to be married "like this" - however what I didn't know is that she already had cut another stallion from the group.

I read the book Emotionally Destructive Marriage and there was lots of great info that I needed to apply to my own life with respect to my marriage. I also read The Emotionally Abusive Relationship which was also very valuable.

At this point, my wife believes that she'll never feel safe with me again, never develop feelings for intimacy with me again. And I can't stop those.

So here we are....working on myself, preparing myself for likely a new relationship in the future, a healthy relationship with my kids (as the one I had with my dad was total crap)


H46
W38
M12
T15
D8,S7,S5

11/12/17 "I don't want to be married like this" A began
7/12/18 Confessed A
10/1/19 EA still happening with 2
4/23/19 "I want a D, but I want to stay until I find a job"
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IHCLACS and unichen -

Thanks for the recommendation on the book. Going to have to check it out.

I have a lot of emotional stunting from childhood - traumatic parental divorce where learned my preteen identity wasn't important but using us kids as pawns in the divorce was. Did a lot of tuning out and blocking out during the fighting, throughout high school b/c I wasn't able to process those emotions then.

Always knew I needed IC but couldn't pay for it. But I think the key is to realize that while we have issues, they are fixable, or able to be handled. So when people in MLC or transitions bring these points up, we have to acknowledge that they are valid, but also that the MLCer is experiencing a high level of stress/hairpin trigger emotions.

Seeing it from that sort of detached observer viewpoint will help realize what is essential to focus on, and what might be just negativity for negativity's sake, imo.

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IHCLACS,

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
She even looked into a book called Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Boarderline or Narcissistic personality disorder.


I found this book in my house recently. I was devastated.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
A lot of books on emotional abuse give good insight on behaviors you may or may not be aware you are doing. But I am also going to say this. I believe once a WAS is repulsed by you for whatever reason. (Lack of attraction, didn't pay her enough attention, insert whatever justification.) They will ingest all of this material IMO, feel empowered, validated, and justified in putting a label to their "treatment of victimization" and have us shoulder all the blame for everything in the marriage. Try to be aware if your behaviors that do apply whether intentionally or unintentionally and 180 on them. Be nice, play nice, be firm and assertive, but maintain composure and emotions at all costs. Think Patrick Swayze from Road House. BE NICE Just don't be a doormat.


You said a lot in your response that resonates with me.

I have been wondering the last few months: Am I emotionally abusive? Am I BPD? And can I answer these questions with honesty?

EMOTIONAL ABUSE

In the last month I read 2 books about emotional abuse: The Emotionally Abusive Relationship, and Stop Hurting the Woman You Love. I do match in specific ways:

Core fears: Fear of losing the relationship, insecurity

Triggers: W spending time with people other than me (kids, family, friends)

Tactics: Over-texting W, over-communicating, pressing her for reassurance, anger/poutiness/moodiness

Mostly in the past 2 years I have exhibited possessiveness. Frequently saying ILY expecting a response in kind, frequently bringing up affection, assuming she doesn't love me if we are not physically intimate. I have felt entitled at times, and angry, and I have minimized the impact to our M.

As you pointed out, once that worm works its way into your R, the labeling begins. I have been accused of having a PA, of using financial control (which is just not true), of using distance and space as punishment (when I was trying to give her space because I thought she wanted it) and other power/control tactics which I have not used. At the time I was hurt, stung, and a bit angry. But... now I understand. I understand how once you start being emotionally abusive, then everything you do can be tainted with it. It is a poison that infects the whole M. I don't hold this against my W, it is her truth. If she is seeing our M through the lens of emotional abuse, it is her valid experience, and I shouldn't complain because I gave her the glasses.

You also hinted at the fact that once you admit to emotionally abusive behavior, it's easy to start thinking you are 100% to blame. That's just not a useful thought, even if your S believes it, because it will lead nowhere good. In fact, assigning any % of blame is not a useful thought, as others have pointed out to me. For months I felt wholly responsible and hence felt lower than dirt. No self-esteem. Feeling unfixable. I'm screwed up from my childhood and there's no fixing it. Nobody will love me. Nobody *should* love me. My kids are going to be screwed up too. I ruined my W's life. I ruined my kids' lives. No thoughts of self-harm or anything, but just feeling like a total POS. Again... not useful thinking.

The more useful thought to me is... I did some emotionally abusive things, horrible, awful. That's not WHO I AM. I can change, I am a good person, I have some unhealthy issues and attitudes and thoughts that drove these behaviors -- I can change. I can change the attitudes and thoughts, and I can also change my actions/words/behaviors.

BPD

Whether or not I have BPD, my W may think that I do.

I do think my W treats me differently now. I am aware of the advice on how to interact with someone with BPD traits. And that is how she has been treating me -- with distance, detachment, lack of affection, don't poke the bear, etc. I feel managed. It is upsetting, but I also understand and have empathy. It makes me wonder if DR will be useful in this case, because I am also detaching, etc. There is such little room for emotion in our relationship. As hurt as I was when I found the book, now I am more understanding (still a WIP for me). I get it. She deserves to feel safe, protected, secure, and I have not provided that. Strangely it is helping me detach, and be more positive. You could almost say my W is giving me a gift?!

***

You were hinting at something else I have been thinking about. W and I went 13 years of knowing each other without me getting emotionally histrionic. Then we made a huge life decision 2 years ago. We moved for job reasons, with 3 little kids, away from family. It disrupted our lives in many ways.

I handled this by wanting more emotional support from my W. I was admittedly needy and pouty and demanding. See above on Emotional Abuse. Her reaction was the opposite. She wanted space, she offered little to no reassurance, it triggered me to seek more reassurance. It was a positive feedback loop. She has a different personality style, and that is completely okay. The more she withdrew, the more I pursued. She was so cold and distant at times where I just wanted a hug. Then I would give space and she would complain I was distant. Things got confusing fast. She seemed angry when I approached so I gave space. Looking back I wonder if the space I gave her was interpreted as coldness. In retrospect I should not have been so confused maybe? Maybe once she saw me as a person capable of emotional abuse, the whole R turned. I regret not apologizing earlier. Now I have written 3 apology letters and received no response. It feels too late.

I feel like I am changing, that I am letting go of my dreams and expectations, that although I want to jump up and say "Honey I've changed! I will no longer demand affection, I respect your needs and I apologize for what I did before and I am a whole, more healthy person!" -- the reality is this may be a lifelong process. I should have stopped the behavior before it became problematic. I let my emotions take hold, I dumped my emotions onto her (I like the term emotional contagion for this). I did want to control her behavior, I wanted her to want to be with me, to be more affectionate, to ask how my day was, to check in on my during the day, to go on more dates. I wanted us each to be each other's #1. I don't regret wanting those things, but I have tons of remorse for how I behaved and acted when I did not get those things. And I am living with the consequences. The reality is, she was adjusting to the move too, and probably depressed and worried about the future, and I was not receptive to what she needed. Maybe she was quiet, but I am her H, and I could have done so much more to meet her needs.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
What I can say is that not only on just your personality type, but your childhood upbringing, and how you were raised, some of the things you unawaringingly carry over from your parents eventually seep out in your marriage, and the dysfunctional dynamics of how you interact sometimes with your spouse


So true. I am estranged from my parents at the moment (3 years running), mostly because of my mom's BPD/NPD traits that made having a healthy relationship with proper boundaries impossible. BTW there is a great book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" which has a ton of great insights, I have re-read it a couple times (not just for BPD/NPD, but just emotionally immature parents in general). I have much deeper understanding of how my parents' emotional distance influenced my own beliefs, attitude, and behaviors. For instance, I always wanted to be emotionally close in my M, as a reaction to how I was raised, so distance is a huge trigger for me.

The insights are great, but in fact the DR techniques I find much more useful. MWD even says this -- insights lead to understanding, but not always behavioral change. Do this, stop doing that. Concrete actions. My mindset is gradually evolving - I can tell it's going to take months, years - but I can sense the changes and I'm feeling positive for the first time in awhile (in the middle of the 5 stages I'm going through in parallel). I'm feeling better realizing I need to own my own happiness and really work on myself, or I will not be a good R partner (or father) going forward.

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

I always suggest to newbies to start with "How to be a 3% Man" available on Amazon.

How are you so sure she is not having an affair?


Thanks I will check out the book recommendation.

I'm not 100% sure on the A. She is SAHM right now with 3 kids, 2 of whom are not of school age yet. We have a nanny come 2 days a week, during which she typically goes shopping, running errands, etc. W never gets dressed up. Often goes to see some friends, and takes lots of pictures on puts them on our cloud account. Honestly she seems depressed. If I had to guess W wants D because of emotional abuse. She doesn't go out at night secretively. We ended MC in January, which we both agreed did not end well, and ever since she has been distancing herself from me and the M.

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U,

Another book you should get is “No More Mr. Nice Guy”. Sounds like you have what as known as Nice Guy Syndrome.

Doesn’t sound like an affair. Is she secretive with her phone?

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

Another book you should get is “No More Mr. Nice Guy”. Sounds like you have what as known as Nice Guy Syndrome.

Doesn’t sound like an affair. Is she secretive with her phone?

She is secretive with her phone. I saw one time she was texting a 2x divorced childless female friend, something about "make sure you document what he said about your work". Part of the evidence that I know the BD is coming. I guess it could be an EA but I doubt it. I'm not sure it matters to me honestly -- either way she's being secretive and hiding things from me, it's impacting my trust of her too.

I do have that book. I bought it last year when I was lurking on Reddit's DeadBedrooms forum. Started re-reading it yesterday as a matter of fact smile I definitely suffer from NGS in many ways.

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What did you say about her work?

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Originally Posted by LH19
What did you say about her work?

I don't even know!

She's been planning to go back to work 1-2 days a week. She gets a lot of personal fulfillment out of her work, and I've been supportive of those plans. One time she estimated how much she could make in 1 day and I think I joked that she could work FT and I could stay home because we'd make more. Kind of thoughtless, intended as a joke, but maybe more hurtful than I realized. Other than that I've been supportive in my comments, telling her there is no pressure financially, listening to her talk about the best schedule. So I really don't know.

Regardless, I'm not worried about the "documentation." I'm hurt by the implication that she's documenting everything I do and say.

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Hey Unichen. Give. Should I Stay Or Should I Go? a read. I'm not going to lie it's going to possibly sting a little bit. But I think it might give you some valuable Insight on what's going on through your wife's mind from start to finish

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Which author? I see 2 books with the same title.

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Just a daily update here, with a question at the bottom:

Last week I spoke to my boss about flexing some hours. I would call this a 180 but it was a day or two before I discovered DR. Today I worked from home, picked up S7 from school, and took S7 and D5 down to after-school activities. It is a rare occasion for me but I’m hoping to make this a weekly thing. Every Thursday, either go to office early or WFH, then handle after-school stuff.

I see no downside. Whether D happens or not, I have more work-life balance, W has a bit of a break, I feel great about this all around. I feel good about my motivation - I’m doing this for me, and even better it is something that gives my W a break from child-care. I’m going to need this flexibility if the D happens.

While at home, W brought me breakfast and lunch in the office, both unexpected. It’s easy to focus on the negative, but these were very nice appreciated gestures and I thanked her… not overly gracious or anything. She still gives me updates on how her family and friends are doing. She left for dinner with a colleague tonight, and said goodbye to the kids and gave them each so many hugs and kisses, I got a “bye.” So confusing. I keep thinking it’s like being in the Friend Zone, maybe she’s just coaching me for our life to come, where it will be in our best interest raising 3 kids to be friends. I’m learning to stop trying to figure it out and just work on my actions and behaviors. That’s why I’m attracted to this forum and DR, it’s simple, and avoids obsessing about everything.

On another note… I have a question to the forum. W has vaguely talked about going back to MC in June or July. Her commitment sounds very wishy-washy to me. Especially because in the past she has been so insistent on needing MC. I am fighting back my tendency to try to predict the future, but I do think it is likely that MC will be her way of letting me down easy, or giving me the BD in a safe place.

When we first went to MC, we both spoke separately on the phone with the therapist to give some background. My thought is to insist on having the same individual conversations ahead of time, and then telling the counselor that I am not particularly interested in MC unless my W and I share the same goal: staying married, working through things. Otherwise, MC is really for my W to feel better about herself, which she can do in IC. I don’t feel like she is going to provide answers that help me find my own closure.

Any other advice on how to handle this?

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U,

Your definitely in the friend zone right now. It will be easier to raise 3 kids if you two are friendly to one another.

I wouldn’t bring up MC unless she does and absolutely state your stance that you are only interested in attending if the goal is to work on the marriage.

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Also, can you add a signature like mine? It helps when giving advice.

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I agree with LH.

Also wanted to add, regarding the convo on the last page about the books you're reading and such- be mindful that the goal isn't to beat yourself up for being a horrible person with tons of faults and a bad husband. The goal is to identify weak areas in your life and work on improving yourself in those areas. It's far too common for the LBS to start reading all this stuff and come to the conclusion that everything is their fault and they are a horrible father, husband and person. If you were then you wouldn't be here, you would have been the one that BD'd and you'd be out having an affair with some floozy. Be mindful that YOU are a person with honesty and integrity and that yes you need to make some tweaks but no you are not an awful person that deserves this.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Unichen. You are definately in the friend zone, your W is preparing you to "be friendly" for co parenting. She is staging. She is not going to MC or IC individually with no willingness to work on the marriage. You're assessment is correct. She is only going to find clarity for herself and closure to make herself feel better from my experience. She has no intention on working on the M if she is being secretive, withholding feelings, being guarded, and emotionally unavailable and withdrawn to you.

Just based off my limited experience since I'm 7 months in, in the midst of sellung our home, and seperating.This is where it gets worse and becomes a balancing act of working on yourself, becoming being ambiguous to W that you are also not a "sure thing" but you are not done as well. You kind of have to make it non verbally clear that you are moving forward with your life, and she is welcome to reach out for your hand without you having to look back and ask for hers, which she most likely won't at this stage. You need to be non verbally clear that you are content, happy, but you will also not just be "her friend" even if its only for the sake of the kids. I have, well not struggled in front of my W, but with myself on clearly separating everything family related to set a precedence that I'm not going to entertain helping her manipulate me or fulfil her fantasy or desire to move me into the friend zone.

Its kind of like this. This is just my theory, and the vets are welcome to step in on this and correct me. Most women have checkboxes in a R and if you are not meeting most of them emotionally, romantically, sexually, physically, spiritually, and paternaly, whether it be due to life stresses, behavioral issues, work, kids, hobbies, personal choices or whatever, they are going to get these "feelings" that something is off. If they nit pick you constantly, feel a lack of trust with you, They are looking at life in the future at first debating with, or without you. They are going to feel "confused" or work more torwards certainty or clairity with IC why they feel this way, because they don't even understand. It is my belief that before or during BD when you get the "justification list" of all the things you weren't doing for them, it is them reasoning with themselves being done, justifying actions for leaving the marriage, because of lack of attraction, bad behaviors that caused it, etc. They don't see a future with you, and are paving the way to save themselves, their core emotional being, and pave the way forward without you. Hence the reason why they go cold, feel numb, say things like ILYBINILWY, "I have to find myself" etc. They eventually "thaw" and then decide to move away from the M. Stick you in th friend zone as plan b, and just for the sake of the kids. We are shocked because we never saw the warning signs. some of us were intimate rap until the point of BD, and saw the signs as nothing more than passing isolated issues. My w is currently convinced that we can be really good friends once we go through the separation and work on ourselves, that's something really good is going to come out of it but not as a couple any longer. She might be right. It pi$$es me off, but she might be right. but it's hard for a lot of us to accept that because we knew them as being romantical with them. Who the hell wants to go backwards and accept something different?

Because I'm starting to understand this more, it's giving me insight, but I'm still figuring out how to apply it and reverse it.
I'm even questioning myself on whether I'm even interested in preserving this M. Some days I'm done and other days I'm not. You almost have to be indifferent towards your W. W are looking for father's, lovers, providers and friends. If you are not hitting all three, you are going to be friend zoned. As far as I'm concerned you are the man. You have to be the man as a father, a lover, and friend, and a husband. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to change their minds. They have to change it for themselves. once they decide to leave there's no going back in the wheels are in motion. They have to see you as a better option once they leave, and this is why it's critical you get to work on you and stop worrying about her. I don't know yet because I'm not all the way through the other side of this yet and early in my sich, and haven't made a lot of significant changes, but some, but I'm hoping that time apart which is now inevitable, has W that the grass isn't greener on the other side, and that in time W sees me as AMOAFWL. She does great? If she doesn't oh well? I'll be moving forward looking forward to things in my life alone and finding someone more compatible who appreciates me for me.

Does all this make sense? give should I stay or should I go by Lundy Bancroft a read. I'm going to warn you it might make you feel guilty once you learn their mindset and all the things that you did wrong. But it's going to give you valuable insight. Towards the end of the book it's going to go into W moving forward, and finding new loves of their lives. rebuilding themselves independently and moving forward without you. Reading that may emotionally upset you cuz it's not what you want to think about what you want for your marriage. So read it in a private place. I'm really good at giving good advice on these things and horrible at following it myself. But Keep working on you. For you and try to learn to detach.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I agree with LH.

Also wanted to add, regarding the convo on the last page about the books you're reading and such- be mindful that the goal isn't to beat yourself up for being a horrible person with tons of faults and a bad husband. The goal is to identify weak areas in your life and work on improving yourself in those areas. It's far too common for the LBS to start reading all this stuff and come to the conclusion that everything is their fault and they are a horrible father, husband and person. If you were then you wouldn't be here, you would have been the one that BD'd and you'd be out having an affair with some floozy. Be mindful that YOU are a person with honesty and integrity and that yes you need to make some tweaks but no you are not an awful person that deserves this.

Thanks Stander. I am definitely the type to obsess about all my flaws and read too much to understand the other person, and it tends to not help. The reading I like right now is focusing on my self. What is helping me right now is focusing on myself, being positive & upbeat, having steadier emotions and confidence, and not letting W's reactions get to me as much as they did before... they still bother me, but I see a gradual change happening.

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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
She is not going to MC or IC individually with no willingness to work on the marriage.

Actually my W is in IC and has been for 3 months. My take is she's probably working on herself and disconnecting from the M.

So much other good stuff in your post, thanks. I don't think I'm ready to read your book recommendation, I'm just not sure it would help me right now when I'm trying to pick myself off the mat (where I was in April) and just be more positive and upbeat so I can prepare for the tsunami that's about to hit. Maybe when I'm in a better place mentally and emotionally. I'm aware I took things for granted, and could have handled things differently.

Your post makes so much sense to me, but I am still so confused how to implement the ideas. Specifically... how do you become happy and content, but yet show your W you are there for her, at the same time you are okay with things not working out that way? Someone wrote an early response to me about walking down a path and periodically shining a light back, in case your W wants to follow. But you have to keep going down that path. I love the poetry and it makes so much sense, but I struggle with the implementation. If we are in the kitchen talking about her day for 10 minutes, do I cut her off and leave? Do I continue to act empathetic? It is so confusing what exactly to do in specific situations.

We had a strange interaction last night. W came home after dinner with a colleague and was talking about ramping her career soon, where we need a nanny to watch D5 and D3 a couple days a week. She said there may be days where the nanny falls through and she might drop the kids at the neighbors, but wasn't sure what would work.

I said, "I will call in sick on those days to watch the girls, as long as I'm not on work travel."

W got angry and said, "OK but in the past when I was super sick you still HAD to go to work."

I responded calmly, "You are right, I wasn't there for you, I should have stayed home that day, and I'm sorry for that. Going forward, I plan to call in sick or WFH on days where you need help."

W responded, angrily, "I don't want to talk about this anymore." and then we proceeded to talk 20 more minutes about the school moms.

I felt pretty good about this interaction. I wasn't overly apologetic, but I acknowledged that I was thoughtless in the past. I was really level-headed about it, like "This is what I'm going to do going forward." We had a similar interaction a few weeks ago when I stayed home to watch my sick D5, and W said something like "You didn't do that before when I was sick" and she was clearly angry about it. I'm a little iffy whether I should have apologized last night, but I feel it was warranted and I kept it concise.

I'm not overly interpreting W's anger. Most likely she is just angry, and realizes she shouldn't be expressing her anger to me if she is trying to detach herself. Or maybe I am making progress and the anger is a good thing. I don't know... I felt great because I was not focused on the outcome, I was focused on myself, and I felt good about the fact that my plan going forward would be to be more supportive. Obviously I may not get that chance, but I'm doing what I can.

Regarding: The Friend Zone

If the D happens, yes, we do still need to co-parent and ideally be on friendly terms, and that would be my goal. I started to think about whether that is her goal or not, but with each day I'm so exhausted trying to figure out what is going on in W's mind that I need to stop, and focus on what I can control.

The Friend Zone is an interesting one. There are some things that, D or not, we will always need to talk about. The kids, school, etc. Then there are things that may change with D. I am starting to think about my boundaries here, planning for the future. For instance, right now, W will still talk about issues in her family (grandparents' health, issues with her mom), her career plans, how the school mom's treat her. I listen and I am empathetic, I don't offer much advice or try to problem-solve. I think she likes that part of our R still. Or maybe these are just the topics that are safe for us to discuss. Post-D, as friendly as I'd like to be, I feel like I will need to set a boundary that I will not discuss those things, that I am no longer her intimate partner in that way. As much as I want to be that shoulder for her, and offer opportunities to reconcile, I need to move on, and also show her that she needs to move on and show her what she is losing by leaving the M. Does that make sense?

... and yet at the same time, I feel like that would make it harder to reconcile. I guess maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse. Maybe once we reach that point, things will be much clearer for me.

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U,

She’s getting angry because she has most likely made up her mind to D you and now you’re doing what she wanted you to do. If she Ds you while you’re doing everything right then she’s the bad person.

Why do you think setting boundaries will make it harder to reconcile?

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Originally Posted by LH19
She’s getting angry because she has most likely made up her mind to D you and now you’re doing what she wanted you to do.

I agree. Or she's angry because she thinks I'm full of it and just saying what she wants to hear. Either way, I still feel good about saying what I did, because I intend to do that provided we stay married. If we are not married, and she has custody with the kids that day and she needs to work, I'm not going to bail her out. That is a boundary I intend to enforce.

Originally Posted by LH19
If she Ds you while you’re doing everything right then she’s the bad person.

Possibly. Maybe W can explore this in her IC. That's probably why she is in IC.

Like many of us here, we are in shock, and feel like if our spouse just made things more clear we would have made changes sooner and prevented where we are today.

Could W have made her concerns more clear? Yes. Could I have recognized these issues myself? Yes. I don't feel like a bad person. It's just not useful to try to figure out who is to blame how much for what. It is what it is. I'm here now in this awful situation that I feel was avoidable. It's so hard to just accept what is.

Originally Posted by LH19
Why do you think setting boundaries will make it harder to reconcile?

Good point.

Knowing my W quite well, I think reconciliation is out of the question, regardless of what I do. Once she makes decisions about people in her life, there is no going back. I'm firmly planted there. I don't think she would make this decision, and then later question herself. She is mentally strong, and not going to question something she did in the past. She does not have regrets about other relationships she has ended before - ex-boyfriends, friends, even family members.

Honestly, this process is mostly about me accepting that D is coming. There is a Hail Mary chance that we go to MC and somehow make enough headway that she reconsiders before the BD. I have zero illusions that this will happen. Like everyone says here, she has probably been thinking about this for months if not years... once she builds up the courage to BD, there is realistically no going back.

I'm curious how much boundary-setting I should be doing before the BD? Sometimes we talk 20 minutes about things she wants to talk about, and I work on validating, active listening, etc. I feel like I am practicing skills that will be useful to me regardless of what happens, but sometimes wonder if I need to grow a pair and pull away a bit.

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Your boundary should be no R discussions. If she brings it up and wants to chit chat about things, then validate and actively listen. Pulling away and doing your own thing with a positive attitude is what you need to do. Don't be cold or mean or rude. If she engages, then engage and follow the validation path.

Another boundary should be that you shouldn't take disrespect and yelling etc from her. If she is mad at you, then calmly state that you're willing to have the conversation but not while emotions are running high, and you'll disengage if she continues this. And if she does, just politely end the convo and walk away. That's showing balls too.

So figure out what your boundaries first are. What are you willing to accept and what is outside of that. The boundaries are not about teaching her a lesson etc, they are to protect you and what is important to you.

Having gone through this, I know this dance is difficult and sometimes feels contradictory. Also don't over analyze every single interaction. If you think something went poorly, make a mental note to do it differently. One bad interaction isn't going to sink the ship.

Boundary setting should be done in general - even in healthy relationships. So doing it before BD is totally fine.


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In my first sentence I meant no R discussions initiated by you.


No one is coming to save you!

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Having gone through this, I know this dance is difficult and sometimes feels contradictory. Also don't over analyze every single interaction. If you think something went poorly, make a mental note to do it differently. One bad interaction isn't going to sink the ship.

Boundary setting should be done in general - even in healthy relationships. So doing it before BD is totally fine.


This. This is the lesson I learned before I founde DB, the hard way. Putting too much weight on any single interaction can cause you more pain than necessary, for an interaction that will probably be forgotten about in a day or a week.

Also, I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself for when the BD happens. In all honesty it is a good thing to assume it will happen, you can prepare yourself mentally for when the dam breaks. Also, because it will give you the opportunity to assert yourself, remain calm, validate, and if you wish state that you also have not been happy with the way that things are going. IMO of course.

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Originally Posted by IronWill

This. This is the lesson I learned before I founde DB, the hard way. Putting too much weight on any single interaction can cause you more pain than necessary, for an interaction that will probably be forgotten about in a day or a week.

Also, I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself for when the BD happens. In all honesty it is a good thing to assume it will happen, you can prepare yourself mentally for when the dam breaks. Also, because it will give you the opportunity to assert yourself, remain calm, validate, and if you wish state that you also have not been happy with the way that things are going. IMO of course.

Sometimes I just want to rip off the Band-Aid. But yeah I agree, I have to stay calm and stay the course. The BD will happen and with more time I will be more prepared. I went from having maybe 10% hope that MC would offer an opportunity to save things, to now feeling it is <0.1%. But I still feel there is a chance, and that is what is so painful and hurtful. It is soul-sucking and heart-breaking to see this woman I love just drift away with anger and resentment, especially when I feel although I did some things wrong, I am on the right path.

That hope is what hurts the most.

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Originally Posted by Maika
Your boundary should be no R discussions. If she brings it up and wants to chit chat about things, then validate and actively listen. Pulling away and doing your own thing with a positive attitude is what you need to do. Don't be cold or mean or rude. If she engages, then engage and follow the validation path.

Another boundary should be that you shouldn't take disrespect and yelling etc from her. If she is mad at you, then calmly state that you're willing to have the conversation but not while emotions are running high, and you'll disengage if she continues this. And if she does, just politely end the convo and walk away. That's showing balls too.

So figure out what your boundaries first are. What are you willing to accept and what is outside of that. The boundaries are not about teaching her a lesson etc, they are to protect you and what is important to you.

Having gone through this, I know this dance is difficult and sometimes feels contradictory. Also don't over analyze every single interaction. If you think something went poorly, make a mental note to do it differently. One bad interaction isn't going to sink the ship.

Boundary setting should be done in general - even in healthy relationships. So doing it before BD is totally fine.

I stopped initiating R discussions. About 3 weeks ago I said I wanted to talk in person to share some feelings (mostly to apologize in person as I had only done so in a series of letters and e-mails). But she said maybe we could go to my IC so I could "share my feelings" - pretty condescendingly honestly. So yeah I stopped.

She asked if I wanted to do that sometime this month, or go to MC in June or July. I just said "I'm most interested in couples." and left it at that. I know what's coming.

She doesn't really yell or do much of anything around me. I wonder sometimes if the narrative in her head is that I punished her with space and distance for not giving me affection. In my head, she was angry and prickly and she clearly did not want affection initiated by me. What a mess. Sometimes I feel if MC1 was more effective, things would have turned out differently.

But it is what it is... I'm doing better about avoiding over-analysis. It's tough.

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Unichen give this a listen when you have a moment. Look up The Iron Rules of Tommasi on You Tube. Pay particular attention to 54:00 mark where he states the differences between the sexes and how the love. How men love idealistic and women love opportunistic. It pretty much reenforces what I was saying earlier about "checking their boxes" and having not only attraction but also long term potential growth and value.

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But she said maybe we could go to my IC so I could "share my feelings" - pretty condescendingly honestly. So yeah I stopped.

She asked if I wanted to do that sometime this month, or go to MC in June or July. I just said "I'm most interested in couples." and left it at that. I know what's coming.


Sorry to be a bit blunt here, but if she isn't willing to work on the relationship, MC isn't going to help much. I asked W if she wanted to go in a moment of desperation in the early days of my situation and she said flat out "no". From what I've seen around these parts, the vets say not to force it if she doesnt want to go.

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Originally Posted by IronWill
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But she said maybe we could go to my IC so I could "share my feelings" - pretty condescendingly honestly. So yeah I stopped.

She asked if I wanted to do that sometime this month, or go to MC in June or July. I just said "I'm most interested in couples." and left it at that. I know what's coming.


Sorry to be a bit blunt here, but if she isn't willing to work on the relationship, MC isn't going to help much. I asked W if she wanted to go in a moment of desperation in the early days of my situation and she said flat out "no". From what I've seen around these parts, the vets say not to force it if she doesnt want to go.

Yeah I haven't forced it. She's been talking about going in June or July for months now. In early April (after my first apology letter) I asked her via e-mail if we could go earlier. That was my last attempt, when I was still super emotional. She never responded, or even acknowledged receiving the e-mail. Other than her text last week asking if I still wanted to go (my response above), I have said nothing. But last night she did say she started contacting some counselors. I didn't say anything.

She wants to go to MC in June or July, but I'm savvy enough to realize what is probably coming. Probably some combo of the following:

* She feels MC is a "safe" place to deliver the BD where I won't be emotionally crazy.
* She feels MC will give her closure.
* She feels MC will give me closure.
* We will discuss co-parenting in MC.
* She will have her D plans all set up by then.

None of those reasons meet any of my R needs. We can wait to discuss co-parenting AFTER the BD, when I have some time to process what just happened.

Anyways, with MC1 last fall, we both spoke to her ahead of time about our individual goals, our "vision" for the relationship. This time around, I will make sure to speak with MC2 individuals ahead of time, and I plan to say:

* I am concerned that W and I have mismatched goals. I want to save the M, I believe she wants to D.
* How do you typically work with couples in this situation?

I believe most MC's would not try to save the M, in which case why bother going?

If my closure depends on fully understanding why my W is deciding to do this -- it's never going to happen.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by IronWill
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But she said maybe we could go to my IC so I could "share my feelings" - pretty condescendingly honestly. So yeah I stopped.

She asked if I wanted to do that sometime this month, or go to MC in June or July. I just said "I'm most interested in couples." and left it at that. I know what's coming.


Sorry to be a bit blunt here, but if she isn't willing to work on the relationship, MC isn't going to help much. I asked W if she wanted to go in a moment of desperation in the early days of my situation and she said flat out "no". From what I've seen around these parts, the vets say not to force it if she doesnt want to go.

Yeah I haven't forced it. She's been talking about going in June or July for months now. In early April (after my first apology letter) I asked her via e-mail if we could go earlier. That was my last attempt, when I was still super emotional. She never responded, or even acknowledged receiving the e-mail. Other than her text last week asking if I still wanted to go (my response above), I have said nothing. But last night she did say she started contacting some counselors. I didn't say anything.

She wants to go to MC in June or July, but I'm savvy enough to realize what is probably coming. Probably some combo of the following:

* She feels MC is a "safe" place to deliver the BD where I won't be emotionally crazy.
* She feels MC will give her closure.
* She feels MC will give me closure.
* We will discuss co-parenting in MC.
* She will have her D plans all set up by then.

None of those reasons meet any of my R needs. We can wait to discuss co-parenting AFTER the BD, when I have some time to process what just happened.

Anyways, with MC1 last fall, we both spoke to her ahead of time about our individual goals, our "vision" for the relationship. This time around, I will make sure to speak with MC2 individuals ahead of time, and I plan to say:

* I am concerned that W and I have mismatched goals. I want to save the M, I believe she wants to D.
* How do you typically work with couples in this situation?

I believe most MC's would not try to save the M, in which case why bother going?

If my closure depends on fully understanding why my W is deciding to do this -- it's never going to happen.





I feel for you. I really do. I'm sorry this is happening and I dont want to tell you what to do. but I think if you re-read what you wrote here you will have your answer on whether or not you want to go to a MC session where you think this will happen.

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Thanks IW.

Today I turn 40.

I feel like explaining to W why I pulled over the car 2 months ago and was so strange emotionally, both histrionic and trying to hold things in. I said I was ashamed and she said she was frightened for her life. And that I showed no remorse.

Earlier that day I saw a picture in our cloud account. It was our wedding photo on the wall, and a painting she got me as a gift on the floor, never hung up. I knew RIGHT THEN how unhappy she really was. It scared me. I freaked out. I never told her I found this. But it’s why I pulled the car over. And why I apologized in 3 letters for so much I did wrong. I asked to talk in person and she said only in front of IC or MC.

I want to tell her I’m distant out of respect and love and not out of spite.

I want her to tell her that I know what is going on.

Mostly... I want to tell her about the picture. I worry this will accelerate things or freak her out. I also worry that I should actually tell her about the painting, that it is an opportunity, that maybe she will understand why I wrote those long letters and lost weight and seemed emotionally charged up.

I just want some glimmer of light that we can maybe work this out somehow.

But instead I’m going to go downstairs, put a smile on my face, and enjoy the day with my kids and act super excited to be 40 today, because I have to keep up the act.

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U,

Giving her space is doing something. She has to choose to be with you for it to work out long term.

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Unchien. Happy 40th Birthday. The act [censored]. The emotional rollercoaster [censored], the situation [censored], the compulsive thinking [censored], the guilt and the misunderstanding and communication issues suck. Rest assured what you are feeling is normal, Don't allow psychology or your W to put labels on you, whether deserved or not. As time goes by you will eventually settle into the "new normal" and every day more and more, accept where life is going. But you also have to make it happen. You have to get out of the house and GAL or you will go crazy, trust me. Take the kids, round em up and get out for a day with them. Hang with friends, make a coffee date, watch a comedy, do whatever it takes to make yourself temporary happy and distracted or this whole sich will consume you.

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Unichen. This is going to hurt at first for you, but give her so much space that the silence is deafening, and your focus is nothing but your kids and you. You are not the one leaving the M whether W realizes it or not. Keep that respect for yourself. Its like, you are the one leaving, you are the one going NC, but you are the one level headed and emotionally level in front of her. You are moving forward in life without her, and in a sense, you are the one actually pushing the D without doing any of the leg work or mentioning of it. They are not coming back. They are guided by their current feelings. Let them go. Let them fail, let them explore, let them friend zone you, let them misinterpret you, let them do whatever the he'll it is they want to do. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU OR HAS ANY AFFECT ON YOU. You almost have to get to a place where you don't want this person in your life anymore, and don't care what they think, do, or feel, because they the ones quitting, rather than working, they are the ones holding in, rather than clarifying, they are the ones that want to go at it alone, than be a family. They are the ones that want to have you as a friend as plan b, than be your spouse, lover, and partner in marriage and parental partner. Its almost like you have to be so sick of the complex situation, feelings, actions, behaviors, trust issues, different points of views, and emotions, that you say F@$! THIS and save yourself, that you deserve better. But BE NICE. Im coming up behind you at 39 with a S1. I just started doing a lot of things alone with S1 lately. It feels great to known not only can I handle it, but look forward to it. It gets me out of the house, and keeps focus on S1. I'm getting ready to be a really good super dad, whether my W approves of my parenting, or not.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Thanks IW


You bet, man. Just had a night of eye opening revelations from a different person's perspective. And not in a good way, so I get where you're at.

I cant speculate because I'm in a very low place right now. But I do know we gotta build ourselves up and make ourselves strong. It's the only way through this, regardless of the outcome

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IW. I just read your updated posts on your thread. Sorry for your struggles.

I’m also in a low place. Not even a hug or ILY on my 40th. It hurts. Badly.

Let’s be honest - for the vast majority here we have ZERO chance of reconciliation. That thread of hope we hold onto becomes a leash holding us back from where we need to go. DB draws us in because it offers a plan to hang onto that thread, and we are drawn here because of that glimmer of hope. But we stay because DB helps us heal and become stronger happier and healthier individuals. That is the ultimate journey. I hope one day soon I come to terms that I need to DB just for myself. That’s it. And NOT because it might save my M. Because it’s for me. And not even tangentially with some hope that it may incidentally save my M. Letting go (if I can get to that point) seems like the only path to happiness. Forget the M.

Weird birthday though. Had a 20min discussion with W about issues with my FOO. Not sure why W even wanted to talk about it. Too late for me to get into the details, but felt strangely personal and we rarely talk about those things anymore. Just noise, I’m learning not to try to interpret things. Believe none of what they say, etc.

Stay strong you are not alone.

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U,

If when you say recon you mean stopping the D yeah the chances are low. Once the WW gets the courage to do it they rarely change their mind. Now after D is a different story. My brother-in-law remarried his w. Got d'd again but not the point lol. My best friend's girlfriend left him and remarried her husband. One of my best friends parents are back together after 35 years and they hated each other.

Right now you are acting out of fear and that is not a attractive place to be in. What you fear you attract. What you look at disappears. I've been in limbo and it is soul sucking. Being divorced is 1,000 times better then limbo.

Your wife will struggle being d with 3 young kids. I guarantee it.

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LH,

Thank you. This really flipped me into a more PMA to start the day.

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LH,

Also want to say... yeah she will struggle. She has a D’d friend with 2 kids though who is very strong and determined and one of her role models.

Probably the part she doesn’t realize yet is the financial impact. I’m almost 99% sure we would have to sell the house and living in an expensive area of the country it will be rough for both of us. Really rough. Like we might have to move out of our school district. She may plan to go back to work but she tends to overestimate what she can make.

That being said I would not reconcile for that reason alone (financial). Nor do I think she would. Or maybe she would realize this, but not explicitly state it. Honestly if she does start to come back to me for no obvious reason (like MC) it would be the money. And I would turn away.

I’m no expert and have only just started researching the financial implications for me though.

The other difficulties she may face I don’t think will faze her. Since she has been SAHM now for 18 months I think she is ready to handle the extra burden. She likes her friends. I provide some emotional support as someone to talk to, and that will be over, but... not enough probably. She will need to go back to work. Maybe more days than she wants to. I don’t know. She loves her career... she wants that and the 3 kids and no husband right now. She will struggle but that’s for her to bear.

Honestly I’ve made my mistakes which are a huge part of this. She also seems to just want to be a mom and not a wife. It’s been that way since before we had problems. The problems started when I started feeling ignored and expressed my feelings. So maybe I’ll be happier too in the long run.

Gotta run!

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Anyone else struggling on Mother’s Day? Trying to celebrate my W because she is a great mom but at the same time feeling such pain and hurt about what’s going to happen soon. And I have to act like “all is normal.” Starting to want to be alone and not around her.

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Originally Posted by unchien
IW. I just read your updated posts on your thread. Sorry for your struggles.

I’m also in a low place. Not even a hug or ILY on my 40th. It hurts. Badly.

Let’s be honest - for the vast majority here we have ZERO chance of reconciliation. That thread of hope we hold onto becomes a leash holding us back from where we need to go. DB draws us in because it offers a plan to hang onto that thread, and we are drawn here because of that glimmer of hope. But we stay because DB helps us heal and become stronger happier and healthier individuals. That is the ultimate journey. I hope one day soon I come to terms that I need to DB just for myself. That’s it. And NOT because it might save my M. Because it’s for me. And not even tangentially with some hope that it may incidentally save my M. Letting go (if I can get to that point) seems like the only path to happiness. Forget the M.

Weird birthday though. Had a 20min discussion with W about issues with my FOO. Not sure why W even wanted to talk about it. Too late for me to get into the details, but felt strangely personal and we rarely talk about those things anymore. Just noise, I’m learning not to try to interpret things. Believe none of what they say, etc.

Stay strong you are not alone.


My WW used to get me very nice gifts on my bday and gove me cards with love notes written in them. On my last birthday she got me a card that said "blow me".

That was the worst birthday I ever had.

Today is mothers day and would be our 18th anniversary.


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Oh my that is terrible. I also used to get nice gifts and love notes. Now not even a hug or a nice note. But no “blow me” that is insanely cruel man.

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Yeah it was literally her showing me how much she didnt love me. She was shoving me out of her life as quickly as possible because she went full tilt on her PA and didn't want to be cheating on OM with me. So she got very ugly so that I would know she hated me and didnt want me.


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Originally Posted by unchien
Anyone else struggling on Mother’s Day? Trying to celebrate my W because she is a great mom but at the same time feeling such pain and hurt about what’s going to happen soon. And I have to act like “all is normal.” Starting to want to be alone and not around her.



Unichen Im exactly at that place. I think that is a good thing that you don't want to be around her, not only will it help you GAL easier, but rebuild your strength and resilience to all these crazy expectations and emotions the WAW are throwing at us. It isn't going to win then back, but who cares. I'd rather be alone at this point, do things my way, rebuild my way, GAL my way. Strengthen my way. Believe in unity of the family my way, raise my son my way, and keep my emotions and beliefs for me. If they are so foolish not to realize how much we do, who we are, who we are becoming, and how much we care by our actions...Oh well their loss. They are the fool. They're the quitters. They're the ones that don't communicate all the unresolved issues, lose attraction, bury their feelings, seek private council, are guarded, dont do the work on themselves, blame shift and project it all onto us, break their vows. Etc...Keep moving forward without them. They're not worth your time or mental space. Its all about them, whatever they are going through, so leave them to them, and you to you. Become AMOAFWL. Because they will be the fool whether they ever realize it or not.

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SoTorn are you serious? "Blow Me?" I would have mailed her a 10lb box of flaming dog $hit for hers. What a Cee U Next Tuesday.

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Originally Posted by unchien
IW. I just read your updated posts on your thread. Sorry for your struggles.


Thanks, man. I have learned to keep a calm stone exterior, but times like last night are a gut punch. Still reeling - W has no idea tho and it will stay that way.

Quote

I’m also in a low place. Not even a hug or ILY on my 40th. It hurts. Badly.


I know the feeling, all too well these past 8 months. it will pass. What really helped me is reading through the MLC resources - in particular from the former MLCers like sandi and AmyC. The description of the shift in viewpoint helped me to understand why this kind of behavior happens.

Happy 40th, man! Hope you got to do a little something fun today for you.
Quote

Let’s be honest - for the vast majority here we have ZERO chance of reconciliation. That thread of hope we hold onto becomes a leash holding us back from where we need to go. DB draws us in because it offers a plan to hang onto that thread, and we are drawn here because of that glimmer of hope. But we stay because DB helps us heal and become stronger happier and healthier individuals. That is the ultimate journey. I hope one day soon I come to terms that I need to DB just for myself. That’s it. And NOT because it might save my M. Because it’s for me. And not even tangentially with some hope that it may incidentally save my M. Letting go (if I can get to that point) seems like the only path to happiness. Forget the M.


This is the hardest lesson to learn. Bc it seems so counterintuitive. But letting go is the only option left. But not with hate or anger or fear. Letting go with love, bc you love them.

The way I look at it now - the M is over, but now is the time to work on myself, and later, see if it's possible to build something new out of the ashes, after their crisis has diminished. What that looks like is anyone's guess.

Quote

Weird birthday though. Had a 20min discussion with W about issues with my FOO. Not sure why W even wanted to talk about it. Too late for me to get into the details, but felt strangely personal and we rarely talk about those things anymore. Just noise, I’m learning not to try to interpret things. Believe none of what they say, etc.


Sounds like a good chance to practice listening. But yeah, def weird, esp for a bday

Quote

Stay strong you are not alone.


Thanks man - you too. Stay positive smile

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How many months do I just sit here DB’g when I know the BD is coming? Is there a point where I am disrespecting myself, watching my W slowly plan this out? Could it be better to just call her out? “hey you’re not wearing your ring what’s up?” Or “I don’t want to go back to MC if we are not trying to stay M’d” or “I see the stress we both are under is impacting our kids” or “I’m not gullible I see you plotting this all out and distancing yourself and finding more and more reasons every day to justify your anger no matter what I do”

Seriously what do you do if W stops wearing her ring? It’s possible this is a one day thing due to working on the garden but it just seems... odd.

In the meantime I feel like I need to set some boundaries. Looking for feedback here on these:
- I will walk away from angry conversations
- I will not step into help W discipline our kids if she started the discipline (timeouts etc)
- likewise If I am dealing with my child I will not have W butt in

Any good GAL ideas for someone who works FT and has 3 little kids so spends all time at work or home basically?

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U,

You should take this time and do the exact thing your W is doing and work on yourself. You give out this whoas me vibe on the forum (picture sleptrock from Flintstones), so if we can feel it your W can feel it. You have to stop reading into things she is doing.

Definitely set boundaries. Don't let her disrespect you in any way and don't let her undermind your parenting.

Do you have guy friends you can hang out with during this difficult time?

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Originally Posted by unchien
How many months do I just sit here DB’g when I know the BD is coming? Is there a point where I am disrespecting myself, watching my W slowly plan this out? Could it be better to just call her out? “hey you’re not wearing your ring what’s up?” Or “I don’t want to go back to MC if we are not trying to stay M’d” or “I see the stress we both are under is impacting our kids” or “I’m not gullible I see you plotting this all out and distancing yourself and finding more and more reasons every day to justify your anger no matter what I do”

Seriously what do you do if W stops wearing her ring? It’s possible this is a one day thing due to working on the garden but it just seems... odd.

In the meantime I feel like I need to set some boundaries. Looking for feedback here on these:
- I will walk away from angry conversations
- I will not step into help W discipline our kids if she started the discipline (timeouts etc)
- likewise If I am dealing with my child I will not have W butt in

Any good GAL ideas for someone who works FT and has 3 little kids so spends all time at work or home basically?



Unichen - like I said I'm not you and cant tell you what to do. But if it were me I would cancel that MC session. BD was hard enough. I definitely didn't need a 3rd party there to offer comments and critiques on how that went.

Calling her out will only increase the pain. Trust me, I've tried it. Learned the hard way. I wont do that again, not unless she comes out of the MLC tunnel and SHE decides to talk about it.

They aren't in the same mindset as you. It will be seen as tremendous pressure and will push them farther away.

Rings off is a hard day. Try to breathe, try to stay calm. Meditation has helped me a lot. Walking has helped, running, maybe going to the movies or even the library with your kids? A museum? A nearby park? Sometimes going for a drive- Anything to give you just a few hours to take your mind off things.

Stay strong, man

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Originally Posted by unchien
How many months do I just sit here DB’g when I know the BD is coming? Is there a point where I am disrespecting myself, watching my W slowly plan this out? Could it be better to just call her out? “hey you’re not wearing your ring what’s up?” Or “I don’t want to go back to MC if we are not trying to stay M’d” or “I see the stress we both are under is impacting our kids” or “I’m not gullible I see you plotting this all out and distancing yourself and finding more and more reasons every day to justify your anger no matter what I do”

Seriously what do you do if W stops wearing her ring? It’s possible this is a one day thing due to working on the garden but it just seems... odd.

In the meantime I feel like I need to set some boundaries. Looking for feedback here on these:
- I will walk away from angry conversations
- I will not step into help W discipline our kids if she started the discipline (timeouts etc)
- likewise If I am dealing with my child I will not have W butt in

Any good GAL ideas for someone who works FT and has 3 little kids so spends all time at work or home basically?



Your situation is a bit unusual in that most people here already have had the BD. I guess I haven't exactly, because W is in la-la-land and wants total independence from me except for the part where I contribute money, do housework, and take the lion's share of watching D2. She's never said the word divorce, she just acts like she's 22 and single instead of 32 and a married mom. But you seem to be doing anticipatory DB and, perhaps, speculating on how much she's plotting.

LBS feel a lot of internal pressure (believe me, I know) to just have it out, be done with it, DO SOMETHING. It rarely works. "I'm not gullible, I see you plotting..." is not going to lead to a positive connection. If you REALLY, REALLY want out that's different. But if your goal is save your M, doing things that will push her away should be avoided. I'd say you should refrain from confronting (and don't do the counseling session), but take steps behind the scenes to protect yourself and work on yourself, DB-style.

Did your W take the ring off only for one day? My W stopped wearing her ring in late January and it's still off. It hurts like hell but I've resisted any mention.

OTOH, boundaries are necessary. Walking away from angry conversations is a great one. I'm a little more mixed on the discipline ones. It's important for kids not to be able to play parents off each other. Consistency in discipline. Before our D2 was born W and I agreed that we'd back each other on discipline always. If we didn't agree we'd discuss it privately, but not contradict each other in front of the kid/s/. And it's the one area where I still do seek her out to discuss things, even if I avoid R talks like the plague these days.

To me your child-related boundaries sound almost like preparation for D and separate parenting. Dealing with your kids is the one area where, even post-D, there needs to be communication, consistency, and common ground. Where you're at now, it's also a chance to connect in a way with your W without initiating a conversation. So I always back my W up when she puts D2 in time out, because generally D2 fully earned the time out, and because it's still important for kids to see a unified face on these things. Just my 2 cents.

GAL: I only have one young child and I have similar problems. You can just tell W you've decided you need to go to the gym more, or some other activity, and get it established that at certain times you'll be out doing your thing.


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Originally Posted by unchien
Anyone else struggling on Mother’s Day? Trying to celebrate my W because she is a great mom but at the same time feeling such pain and hurt about what’s going to happen soon. And I have to act like “all is normal.” Starting to want to be alone and not around her.


Oh yes, I wrote all about it on my thread this morning. Tough also because I don't think she's been a good mother lately. Much rather not be around her.

Last year was a great Mother's Day, this year was awful. All the holidays and events marking the progression through the year are tough. W and I always used to take a long walk on the first warm day of spring with all the flowers and trees in bloom. Recently there was a perfect day for it but it's not on her radar anymore at all.


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Lots of good advice on your thread. Here is a couple of things as reinforcements.

1. Have healthy boundaries
2. Don't go to MC unless you both explicitly agree prior to it that it is to work on the MR. If she's using MC to break the news, then it's just a way to softly break the news to you. Don't do that.
3. GAL.

Yes, GAL is difficult with a FT job and 3 kids. How well do you manage your time? GAL isn't about something big. It's about taking time for yourself to do something. It could a 30 minute stroll. It could be catching up with friends over a drink. It could be so many things. It could be an activity once a week that brings you joy.

The purpose of GAL is to break the negative cycle of thinking and finding joy in the world. Finding joy that is just for you and what brings happiness to you as a person. Even small moments can help.

There's always time. I am super busy but I made up a schedule and I saw how much free time I had if I made different choices. I wake up at 5am and it gives me ample time to do some things for myself.

Don't wait for BD. Just start living your life with the mindset that you are trying to improve your mental, emotional and physical health. You are rediscovering what makes you feel alive and content.

When I was hit with BD and trying to make sense of things, I realized that my kids were my priority. But I also realized that if I didn't take care of my 'needs' I wasn't the best parent to them. So I developed a 'Law of Needs'. This is what I came up with. I identified my needs and the kids needs and put them on the same level playing field. My needs were as important as theirs. And then I saw where our needs intersected which led to get new activities that we could do together. The other rule was that any time the kids needs conflicted with mine, I would prioritize their needs in that moment and defer my own needs to a later date - but I always got to them and didn't let them slip through the cracks.

Get in the mindset that what you need is important and your health matters in all areas of life. I can tell you that once I adopted this method and went on my own learning journey, I became an even better parent. My relationship with my kids is at a whole new level now. Taking care of yourself is paramount and there will be rippling effects that will compound.


No one is coming to save you!

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Maika - this is HOME RUN wisdom here. I share a similar schedule issue with Unchien. I'm at work all day, W is SAHM mostly and when the time comes up for GAL, I'm about ready for bed. I try to rise early and get my quiet time/prayer in which has helped tremendously.

I've fallen in love with working out again, tinkering in the garage, taking extended hikes with my dog and spending time with the kiddos.

Journey of Rediscovery. I am enough. What things do I want to do? The sky's the limit.

I realized this weekend as my W was clearing out her closet, she has about 3-4x the amount of clothing I do. I always prioritized that for her. Well, now I need to do that for me. Look good, feel good.


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Rising early has been a game changer for me. It allows me to workout, meditate, read some, and get ready for the day. Some of the other easier things to do - sharpen up your closet; look good everyday - this makes a marked difference in your confidence. These outer measures are just the quick ones you can do but the major work is the internal work you need to do. No wardrobe is going to fix your insecurities and emotional health issues. You need to tackle them.

I will say this and I will die by it - improving my emotional health made ALL the difference in every part of my life. Go and fight your demons and do the hard work. It is not glamorous and quite painful. But doing that will get you to a better place. Also, physical activity of any kind is a must - unless you are absolutely unable to do it. Getting your body moving is so important to get your mind right.


No one is coming to save you!

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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

You should take this time and do the exact thing your W is doing and work on yourself. You give out this whoas me vibe on the forum (picture sleptrock from Flintstones), so if we can feel it your W can feel it. You have to stop reading into things she is doing.

Definitely set boundaries. Don't let her disrespect you in any way and don't let her undermind your parenting.

Do you have guy friends you can hang out with during this difficult time?

Thanks LH for the honesty. You are right I wallow and despair a lot. It was a tough weekend just because we were around each other so much, very high tension.

I do meet a good friend for lunch (we work at the same place) about once a week. I told him a few weeks ago what is going on. We are planning out some things to do outside work like a camping trip.

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Originally Posted by Niall11
OTOH, boundaries are necessary. Walking away from angry conversations is a great one. I'm a little more mixed on the discipline ones. It's important for kids not to be able to play parents off each other. Consistency in discipline. Before our D2 was born W and I agreed that we'd back each other on discipline always. If we didn't agree we'd discuss it privately, but not contradict each other in front of the kid/s/. And it's the one area where I still do seek her out to discuss things, even if I avoid R talks like the plague these days.

To me your child-related boundaries sound almost like preparation for D and separate parenting. Dealing with your kids is the one area where, even post-D, there needs to be communication, consistency, and common ground. Where you're at now, it's also a chance to connect in a way with your W without initiating a conversation. So I always back my W up when she puts D2 in time out, because generally D2 fully earned the time out, and because it's still important for kids to see a unified face on these things. Just my 2 cents.

I should have provided a more specific example on the discipline item.

For instance, D5 has been acting out lately. My W may ask her to do something, and she starts to throw a tantrum, so my W will tell her to go to timeout (we typically have our kids sit in a calm place, legs crossed, hands folded, count slowly and breathe in and out). Maybe D5 will be defiant, maybe call my W a name. In the past I would step in and maybe say "Don't talk to your mother like that" and then start trying to help get her to go to timeout. My point now is that if my W is in the middle of handling it, I should not step in. I can back her up, but I should not jump in and try to "help." And vice versa. My W does step in sometimes when I feel like I calmly handling something, so as a boundary I think I could just tell her "Thank you for offering to help, I will handle S/D right now". It can be frustrating because kids sniff this out and start splitting the parents.

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Originally Posted by Maika
Rising early has been a game changer for me. It allows me to workout, meditate, read some, and get ready for the day. Some of the other easier things to do - sharpen up your closet; look good everyday - this makes a marked difference in your confidence. These outer measures are just the quick ones you can do but the major work is the internal work you need to do. No wardrobe is going to fix your insecurities and emotional health issues. You need to tackle them.

I will say this and I will die by it - improving my emotional health made ALL the difference in every part of my life. Go and fight your demons and do the hard work. It is not glamorous and quite painful. But doing that will get you to a better place. Also, physical activity of any kind is a must - unless you are absolutely unable to do it. Getting your body moving is so important to get your mind right.


Maika, Thank you for the feedback! So clear and concise and simple, it gave me some clarity and uplifted my spirits today after a tough weekend.

One question as I'm not completely familiar with the history of your sitch: What did you do specifically for improving your emotional health (not GAL or physical health)? I realize that my long-term happiness hinges on my ability to improve my emotional health, and that I am really struggling in this area. I have a TON of work to do.

Right now the things I am doing specifically for my emotional health are mostly IC and reading a lot of self-help books (plus being active on this forum). Also reaching out to friends much more than I had in the past (not necessarily revealing what is going on, just touching base). I should mention I have a particularly strained relationship with my parents and sister at the moment, so family of origin is not a source of support.

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Please start a new thread and link the two threads together.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Originally Posted by Maika

2. Don't go to MC unless you both explicitly agree prior to it that it is to work on the MR. If she's using MC to break the news, then it's just a way to softly break the news to you. Don't do that.


What do you do if your W says that she wants MC to work on the MR, but doesn't know if it can be fixed? I always get the sense that she is just trying to break the news to me softly, but I have to admit that I am completely paranoid now.

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