Marriage and depression

[ovrrnbw]

The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.

Dave, I've seen 2 responses like this from you. You are not being scolded. MoveForward was just trying to put things into perspective for you. When these situations start, the LBS (left behind spouse) is usually so emotionally hurt and weak and they have a hard time thinking logically and being the strong, attractive, healthy person that they were when the relationship began. It takes time for some of this info to sink in too. Your W is in a fog, and so are you. It is cliche around here, but you both need time and space for the air to clear.

Also, depression is in your thread title. If you're depressed I'm going to say I hope to God that you are getting the help you need and working on being healthy!

As for your finances, you don't need to boot your W off of the joint account, but you should at the very minimum put your funds into your own account for the time being. If she is getting spendy, you will be on the hook for it. You are protecting yourself and your marriage by this. But if you don't do it, I can't say I'd be surprised. As we say when talking business with contractors, "It's only money!" Hopefully you can laugh at that.

My guess is my wife will move out or cleverly schedule another trip to India a few days before I come back.

Well that would suck right? But is there anything you can do about what she chooses to do? If not, do your best to clear that mental headspace out and devote it to something that will make your life great. Therapy, GAL, gym time, reading, seeing friends. You want her back? That's how you do it. You want her to keep you and her boyfriend for a long, long time? Well then keep chasing around a woman who has rejected you. It seems like you've been doing this for 7 months now, but I don't read where it's gotten you any closer.

I'm really sorry you are here. I hope you take time to read some other threads. Here's one that was helpful to me, but there is quite a bit to read:

Hoosjim's thread

[AnotherStander]

Dave, you are getting some gold-plated advice in this thread, I mean really great stuff. Read it, absorb it,
take it to heart.

People want what they can’t have.

Your wife is “dating” another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.

I’ll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.

I always loved my wife, not just now. I moved across the ocean for her. Anything she ever wanted to do I supported her, be it culinary school or violin lessons or taking classes at college for fun. Whenever she made it clear to me that she is upset I corrected whatever it was immediately. But most of the time she did not say a thing. She said she didn't say anything because she did not want to hurt me. I have a big heart, I never not cared about her and my family, but I cannot read minds.

The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.

Usually the comments that anger us the most here are the truth darts that are hitting closest to the target. So ask yourself why you find that offensive. I mean YOU made the following comment:

Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife

So just a few months ago you were so done that you were looking for her "replacement"! And now suddenly you're going to die if you can't save your M? Move is right, you're caught in the WAS fog. This is a marriage you were nearly done with yourself just recently. Most of the people who end up here were not happily married themselves, but they forget that after BD. I've often said the only difference between a WAS and an LBS is the WAS dropped the bomb first. Here's the funny thing about BD- it puts the LBS into a fog that is as murky as the one the WAS is in. But their fog filters things the opposite of the WAS. Think of it this way, you have a piece of paper with a list of good things and bad things in the M. The good things are written in blue, the bad things in red. Your WW has been wearing blue glasses for a while now. When she looks at that piece of paper, everything written in blue (the good things) are invisible. She only sees the red things. When you got BD'd, you put on your own pair of glasses, except yours are red. All you see is the blue (good) stuff. With time you will both remove your glasses. You will remember the marriage wasn't so great, that there were a lot of unaddressed issues. And she will remember that it wasn't so bad after all, that there were a lot of positive qualities. What can you do to make her take her glasses off? You can't, she is on her own journey and she will get there with time. You can't speed her journey up but you can slow it down by feeding into her belief that you are the problem. But when you detach and give her space then at some point she'll realize her problems are not YOU, but are internal. And then maybe she'll start addressing them.

My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?

This isn't about being angry/ cold/ indifferent/ unloving. It's about saying "I will not be treated like a doormat, so I am going to pull back and focus on me instead of giving you anymore of my time and energy." Dig up TXHubby's threads and read them. His situation was nearly identical to yours. Girls-gone-wild WW that was actively engaging in an affair while living at home, and doing it blatantly in his face. He tried to appease her, he tried to nice her back, he showered her with love and attention while turning a blind eye to her affair. And he was miserable just like you are. Then one day he had an epiphany, he literally just said to himself "this is ridiculous, I am letting her slowly kill me and I am worth far more than this." From that moment forward he did a complete 180. He still lived at home with his W, but he quit giving her the time of day. He quit putting up with her ridiculous behavior. He picked up new friends, he started GAL'ing like crazy. He was hardly ever home because he was always busy. He started kicking butt at work. Losing weight, getting his mojo back. Suddenly his W saw someone attractive, confident, grabbing life by the b@lls, and someone unavailable to her! Eventually she BEGGED him to take her back. By the time she did he didn't even want her back, she had to work hard to get another chance with him. He doesn't post much anymore but last I heard they were still piecing, but the difference now is he continued his alpha streak and didn't go back to his old ways.

right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain?

Well you can look at it like that or you can listen to my outlook on my own sitch: "that was a fantastic 20 years together that allowed us to have 3 beautiful children who have grown into amazing adults, and now that chapter is closing and another is opening, but I will always look back on that fondly." Just because she wants out now doesn't mean that it wasn't worthwhile time together.

Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?

Here is the question you have to ask yourself every day: "do I love her enough to let her go?" You need to give her what she wants. If she were sick she would want your love and support. But she's not sick, and what she wants is you out of her life. So do you love her enough to give her what SHE wants and quit trying to force on her what YOU want?

[Ginger1]

I have a close family member, my age, who is married and engaging in an affair. Her H has no idea. However, she says, if he were to find out he would probably turn a blind eye and that would be so unattractive. What she would hope to see from him is not tolerating the A and setting boundaries and showing respect for himself. He has always been extremely beta and she is alpha and it's actually a turnoff for her.

Do you think she would have more respect for you if you were wooing her while she was actively engaging in an affair, or setting boundaries where you will not be act like a husband while she actively engaging in an affair?

Think about it.

[SoTorn]

Dave,

We aren't giving you advice to treat your W poorly. Also, nobody is criticizing you. Everyone here started in their sitch just like you. Wondering how on Earth detaching would help.

You are asking if you would leave your W if she had an illness. That is not a fair comparison because if your wife had an illness instead of an A, she would still be upholding her vows. Your W said screw your vows. The vows she took before God and family. She promised to remain loyal to you through everything until you die.

Your WW broke that promise. How is it ok for her to disrespect you, to so your vows in the trash and then you are the only one holding to your vows?

A MR will not work with only one person holding to their vows. Your W already fired you. This isnt something that is just going to blow over. This isnt just some random fight where everything is going to be ok. This is the end of your MR with your W.

Your MR was ended without your consideration or input. Go try DB and see how you feel. Or keep pursuing and being controlled by her wherein you will feel horrible all the time from the roller coaster of emotions that will never go away.

The longer you stay attached the more you will hurt.

[Ready2Change]

My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?

Hi Dave,

Things that work are counter-intuitive. Everyone has a different definition of "that work". Saving the marraige may be the long term goal, but right now it is about PROTECTION. Things that protect your kids. Things that protect you and your family financially. Things that protect you emotionally.

Lets take cutting her off financially. My understanding is she is being irresponsible with the family money. (IE using family money to go have sex with a man that is not her husband). If you don't think she had sex with this man, then you need to address this immediately with your IC.

You are the one that is being responsible. Making the house payment, the car payment, paying the bills, correct? Do things that protect that. Do things that will not let her damage the family further (IE spend money on irresponsible things).

[DaveK]

I was worried that you would misunderstand my quote and I apologize if you took offense. My point was not directed at you, but at her. Think about your past. Of course you loved (and still love) your wife. Nobody is disputing that. But it took until she said she wanted to leave/find a new boyfriend you to jump into Super H mode. Once you thought you might lose her, you tried to do everything you could to try to "win" her back.

OK...I understand now what you meant.It's all fine. I changed my ways after she made me aware of it. I may have mentioned it earlier, but all the dads I know did mainly one thing: work hard to provide. They all have or had marriages that lasted 50 years and beyond. There is nobody in my family who ever got a divorce or was unfaithful as far as I know. I'm not making excuses and blame bad role models. It just was never brought to my attention that things were wrong for that long...and then again....I still wonder what role my wife's depression plays in this.

The advice here feels very counter intuitive. I get that. One other question that helped me a lot as I was going through this was "Does your wife have any fear of losing YOU?" If thats a no, then theres a problem. Like I said above, if she knows she wont lose you as an option, then there is no incentive for her to pick you.

I would start by reading the homework Cadet posted to you. Especially the 37 rules and the newcomer with a WW threads. Good luck and stick with us.

At the moment she might fear losing me for purely economical reasons. She has no job, has trouble finding anything (she did apply for several positions), and is financially dependent on me. I wish she would get a job, work 40 hours a week, and be reminded that it isn't easy either. It would also get her mind on something else and the freedom to decide where she wants to go. I want her to stay because of me, not exclusively because of money.
I will reread the 37 rules and the linked threads. It is a lot that drops on me now and a lot of information. And the responses here rattled my cage quite a bit. I may need to slow down a bit to keep my sanity. Woke up at 3AM and could not think of anything else than detaching, bank accounts, being distant, and asking the cat what the heck I should do. She purred.

[Accuray]

when you say "make things worse" I don't know how and what to do.

Here's what I mean when I say "make things worse": you are genetically wired to protect your wife and kids. When she's in distress, your first instinct is going to be to try to make things better. When you feel that you're making an effort to relieve her distress, it brings you a feeling of relief.

When you don't respond to her distress, its going to make you feel uncomfortable. You're going to get a cortisol dump and its going to be very tempting to act to make that bad feeling stop.

You'll tell yourself stories that you're being a bad person, or that you're "pushing her away" to justify trying to relieve your discomfort. "Making things worse" means that you grin and bear it.

You basically need to withdraw support -- emotional support and financial support to the degree possible. If she makes a mess, *she* needs to clean it up. You do not step in and enable her in any way.

If she gets mad at you, you shrug it off, you don't engage.

If she cries in front of you, you let her cry and you make NO effort to comfort her.

You go out and "get a life" and you don't feel *any* responsibility to explain or justify what you're doing, you just do it.

Very important: You are *not* mean, punishing, or passive aggressive. You don't make nasty comments. You don't go out of your way to inconvenience her, you simply act as if you are completely uninterested and unaffected by her.

If she wants to make love to OM in your front yard, you walk past, smile and wave. It just doesn't impact you emotionally.

When she senses that she's losing control over you, she *will* fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try. She'll scream and yell, she'll accuse, she'll break down and cry, she'll blame. The minute you engage, you lose. This will be uncomfortable, it will feel *worse* than giving in to her and engaging. That's what making things worse means.

Often people mistake this fighting on the part of the WAW as interest -- that they want you back and that's why they're engaging you. Don't be fooled -- you being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and nothing else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partners and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.

Its a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You've already proven that you'll save her, like when you sent her money and got her a return trip from India. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.

She needs to *fully believe* that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.

You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.

Ever run into a crazy person on the sidewalk who points at you and yells at you? You do what you can to minimize the interaction but after that you move on. It doesn't ruin your day, it certainly doesn't hurt your self-esteem or make you feel worse about who you are.

You need to regard her with exactly the same level of detachment and disinterest. Whatever she does, your toes are still tapping.

At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) *and* build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.

Acc

[MoveFrwd]

At the moment she might fear losing me for purely economical reasons.

I mean "Does she have any fear that YOU would 'dump' HER"?

[DaveK]

This is what I was trying to quote last night. It works, because it is you standing up for yourself. It is you enforcing your boundaries. It is about not being her doormat. And that is ATTRACTIVE in a mate. You know all those movie tropes of Steve McQueen or James Dean or whatever. Thats kind of the concept. Its almost like the less they care about the girl, the more the girl wants them. It's kind of messed up, but it's also kind of how the world works.

It surely is messed up. I would not find that attractive at all, but this isn't about me. I'm also new to this.I did set some boundaries and since then my W no longer videochats with her bf while I am around. Not that this is a great success, but at least I no longer have to endure it.

So how are you going to hold true to your values when the people close to you dont meet your standards?

A very good question and one I do not have an answer for at the moment.

I am curious. What would you say YOU contributed to the downfall of your marriage?

I put too much focus on work. For a while we had a number of people quitting or getting fired in the department. At the same time work load increased drastically and pace got faster. I worked nights and weekends at times because I was under the impression that I will lose my job if I do not get the work done. It consumed me at times so much, that I could not sleep and woke up at 4AM to do more work from home. It's nuts, but that is what my dad did and my grandfather as well (he worked 11 years only night shift and then ran a side business during the day).
I no longer do that. I also no longer care that much. Right now I should be doing work, but this is more important to me. An eye opener was when my W said that she wouldn't have cared if I lost my job if it meant to have spent more time with the family. I regret that a lot. This morning my oldest son wanted to show me the chat bot he programmed. It was close to 8AM and I should have left for work, but I spent the time with him and had him explain how the bot works. Guess what....nobody here cares that I showed up late because I still outperform many.
The other big piece was with my oldest son and his gender identity issue. When that came out my wife went into full supermom mode. She spent the entire day diving head first into this and I was still staring into the headlights coming at me. As far as my son is concerned, I did not treat him any different than I had before. We share many interests. What mattered was that my wife was losing it out of fear that he might kill himself due to his problems. No matter what it is, she always dives in head first and gives 110% full tilt cranked to 11.A quality I admire. Within a few days she was miles ahead of me in that issue, she made all the decisions and then told me what she did and what happened. She did not tell me that they have a therapy appointment on this or that day, she told me that she took my son. What she did was right, but I felt I had no way into this whole process. I should have taken part in her actions far more. She felt being left alone to deal with it and I understand that.
The other things that came up were petty stuff. Like not commenting on her looks once when she expected it. Yea, I didn't say anything at that time, but hundreds of times before and after.
I am by no means a saint. I screwed up, but we each carry half of the blame. While I want to and did change, she just ran away to someone else.

FUN is good. I imagine you spent two hours while playing that game with your mind relaxed and not obsessing over your marriage. What other outlets do you have for that?

I love soccer, especially Borussia Mönchengladbach. I like watching the game live, takes two hours on a Saturday. I'm not that die hard that I am a sour puss all weekend if they lose. But my W complained about that, I always would watch soccer for hours. So that ruined it for me.
I like sorting things, especially stamps. I enjoy looking at the small pictures and marvel about the long travels the small pieces of paper made. I collect since I am six years old. W also complained about that, I would spend too much time on it. I ever do it only during winter.
I love music, and so does W, but lately music stirs up emotions and memories and I start crying. Yes, I am built close to water.
I love watching StarTrek...and I do that before I go to bed.It is the one time of the day where I really are for myself...and the cat. Kitty loves watching TV with me.
I like gardening. Used to do much more, but since May cut back a lot and gave up my plot in the community garden. W hates gardening because of her allergies.
The problem with all those outlets is that they are solitary for the most part. One reason why I essentially have no friends. So telling W that I am going out with friends is a big fat lie. Likewise, she does not have any either. I would have liked for a coworker to come over, but I was never allowed because the house was not clean. I should have done it anyway. But all my life I never had many friends.

[AnotherStander]

I worked nights and weekends at times because I was under the impression that I will lose my job if I do not get the work done. It consumed me at times so much, that I could not sleep and woke up at 4AM to do more work from home. It's nuts, but that is what my dad did and my grandfather as well (he worked 11 years only night shift and then ran a side business during the day).

And you said they were both married 50+ years? So yeah, why do you think THAT contributed to the breakup of your M? I would argue that it didn't, again she is just rewriting history to justify her actions.

An eye opener was when my W said that she wouldn't have cared if I lost my job if it meant to have spent more time with the family.

Let me pose this question to you, let's say you said "screw it, I'm working 8 hours a day period" and you got fired and were unemployed for an extended time. Do you think your W would have said "oh that's OK honey, at least we're together now!!" No, she'd be screaming at you for not being a man, for making her have to go back to work, for not being responsible. You follow what I'm saying? When it comes to rewriting history you are the big loser no matter what, because she can manipulate history to make you look bad no matter what path you took in life. Before she started her wayward ways she probably admired you for working so hard to support the family.

The other big piece was with my oldest son and his gender identity issue. When that came out my wife went into full supermom mode. She spent the entire day diving head first into this and I was still staring into the headlights coming at me. As far as my son is concerned, I did not treat him any different than I had before.

I suspect there's some rewriting of history here too. My son went through something similar and when he disclosed it to me as I was dropping him off at school, I told him I loved him no matter what and to have a good day. When kids go through something like this they just want their parents to treat them like they are still NORMAL, not like they have some kind of disease that needs immediate treatment.

The other things that came up were petty stuff. Like not commenting on her looks once when she expected it. Yea, I didn't say anything at that time, but hundreds of times before and after.

Rewriting history again. I think you're struggling with what we're trying to tell you, we tell you but you still don't see it for what it is. SHE IS NOT WHO SHE USED TO BE. Please understand that. Like many LBS's before, you probably think you know her better than we do. You don't. When you got BD'd she stepped over the line from "your wife" who you knew better than us to "WAS/WW" who we know better than you. As I said before you've gotten some amazing advice here, better than a lot of new people get. Listen to it, and act on it. You have got to stop trusting your intuitions, they are WRONG.