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Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DaveK] #2834097
01/24/19 01:06 AM
01/24/19 01:06 AM
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MoveFrwd Offline
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Plain out tell her that if she is not interested in me I am not interested in her?

Dave - one thing I notice in your postings is things like the above. Do you see how you are constantly REACTING to her? What are YOUR values? YOUR ideals? YOUR concept of what a relationship and marriage should look like? How is she living up to YOUR standards?

You Are detaching because it is what is best for you. You are working at rebuilding your life and yourself into the person you want to be. Her toxic energy will only bring you down.

Continue to focus on what is best for you. And your kids.
Center your choices around that. Not around her behavior l.

Re: Marriage and depression [Re: MoveFrwd] #2834107
01/24/19 03:48 AM
01/24/19 03:48 AM
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Posts: 129
Schenectady, NY
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DaveK Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MoveFrwd
Also, I know itís in the past, but it blows my mind that you stopped therapy because it was too expensive but bought your W not one but TWO plane tickets from India.

Those two things are not related. I agree that my actions around that trip were rather stupid....but one is always wiser after the fact.The one ticket she booked on her CC...not that it really is that much of a difference. I know if messed this up, but there is no help provided by beating me up for it now. Believe me, I did that enough myself. It happened, it's done, no matter what it won't change.

My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?

What are my values? My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did.
I want a happy home with a happy family....right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain? I have no idea what the heck happened to her. How much of that is her depression? I read a lot about depression and the impact on a marriage and she checks off all the boxes. I have a moral problem with that. She has an illness, she is sick. Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?

It was a rough day. Game board meetup was fun, but I have to turn my mind off now, watch a movie and sleep. And yes, I do sleep somewhat OK, I do eat, and as time allows I go to the gym. I still look like a potato, but I always have.

I try detachment. I will have to experience if it is the best for me. What matters most to me is that for the rest of my life I can look at my own face and tell me that I did everything I could to save my marriage, no matter how the story ends. I love my wife.


me: 45 wife: 44
son: 13 son: 17
married in 2000
Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DaveK] #2834108
01/24/19 04:02 AM
01/24/19 04:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 773
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SoTorn Offline
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Dave.

I know its confusing. The main point is that you MUST not only understand, but also accept that your marriage is over. That's it. It's over. As of now there is nothing to save. There is nothing you can do besides focus on yourself.

The point of DB is to better yourself. In bettering yourself by only focusing on yourself, there is a chance, a very slight one, that your W will get out of the fog and attempt to reconcile.

However, that cannot be your main focus. Your main focus is you. When you become a kick ass, self sufficient alpha male, you will be 100% secure with yourself and 100% confident in yourself.

The result of that is that your W may, again may, see these changes and realize that you are not plan B.

You have to act like it's all over. You have to show her you dont need her. In the likely scenario where your W does not come back and you divorce, you will have made so many positive changes in yourself and will be so much of a better man and in a better place that you will be absolutely fine with a D.

Follow the rules, it works. Go read my sitch.

I went from a bumbling confrontational pursuing idiot to having enough confidence that I now have women approach and pursue me for dates.

This part of your life is a gift of time to better yourself for your future, whether that be with your W or someone that deserves to be with you.

You deserve better. Your W does not deserve a man like you, so prove that to yourself. Show the world that you are a bad ass.

I read your posts and you are 100% attached at this time. So yes it's very counter intuitive. Its odd and feels weird as hell to just back off. But that is your only chance to even remotely save your M.

You need to show your W that you are not f**king around. That this isnt some game. That you can be such a bad ass that you can handle anything and have any woman in the world you want.

Right now you are in the mindset of "what will W think if I do this?"

You need to be in the mindset of "how will doing this benefit ME?" Along with "who cares what W thinks or does?"


M:16
T:21
H(me) 38
WW: 38
S11 D16 D19
Red Flags of A: March 2018
ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018
Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018
BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018
D Filed: March 27, 2019
Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DaveK] #2834109
01/24/19 04:04 AM
01/24/19 04:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 129
Schenectady, NY
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DaveK Offline OP
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Sorry for the double post...did not know that there was an edit time limit.



Originally Posted by MoveFrwd
Also, I know itís in the past, but it blows my mind that you stopped therapy because it was too expensive but bought your W not one but TWO plane tickets from India.

Those two things are not related. I agree that my actions around that trip were rather stupid....but one is always wiser after the fact.The one ticket she booked on her CC...not that it really is that much of a difference. I know if messed this up, but there is no help provided by beating me up for it now. Believe me, I did that enough myself. It happened, it's done, no matter what it won't change. Back then I wanted nothing else than my kids to get their mom back.
Therapy was 180$ a session for a therapist out of network. With my deductible I would have racked up a multitude of what a plane ticket costs within a few months. Besides that, the therapist gave some really crappy advice. We both went and she even encouraged my wife to go on that trip (Mom is taking a vacation). She also told me not to let the kids know about anything. They are 13 and 17 now, they are neither blind nor stupid, they know what is going on.
I started therapy again, visits are covered, I am out the 20$ copay....and this therapist at least has a plan, he spends way more than the 45 minutes with me so far each time, gives me homework, and will teach me REBT.
Back then I was not thinking straight...I still struggle a lot, but it has gotten much better.

My questions, concerns and comments may sound odd....but my main goal is to save my marriage. I want to avoid divorce, not provoke one. This is why I am confused by the advice given. Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?

What are my values? My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did.
I want to be a better person today than I was yesterday. I am not perfect. I do not read minds.Whatever I do I want to do it for a reason, even if it ends up being the wrong choice.
I want a happy home with a happy family....right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain? I have no idea what the heck happened to her. How much of that is her depression? I read a lot about depression and the impact on a marriage and she checks off all the boxes. I have a moral problem with that. She has an illness, she is sick. Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?

It was a rough day. Game board meetup was fun, but I have to turn my mind off now, watch a movie and sleep. And yes, I do sleep somewhat OK, I do eat, and as time allows I go to the gym. I still look like a potato, but I always have.

I try detachment. I will have to experience if it is the best for me. What matters most to me is that for the rest of my life I can look at my own face and tell me that I did everything I could to save my marriage, no matter how the story ends. I love my wife. I love my sons. And I want this effen nightmare to end.


me: 45 wife: 44
son: 13 son: 17
married in 2000
Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DaveK] #2834114
01/24/19 05:05 AM
01/24/19 05:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,045
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MoveFrwd Offline
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People want what they canít have.

Your wife is ďdatingĒ another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.




Iíll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.


Also, I know itís in the past, but it blows my mind that you stopped therapy because it was too expensive but bought your W not one but TWO plane tickets from India.

Last edited by Cadet; 01/30/19 10:14 PM. Reason: combine posts
Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DaveK] #2834116
01/24/19 05:58 AM
01/24/19 05:58 AM
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Quote
What are my values? My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did. I want a happy home with a happy family.


That is EXACTLY how I feel too Dave...exactly. Sadly, my H decided long ago that he had other priorities. He could have made so many different choices and taken steps to save our marriage instead of doing what he did. I am so clear on my values and priorities, it just never occurred to me that he would have different ones even though, looking back, the signs were there. I have thought about trying to find a replacement for him to try to expedite my healing process but, the truth is, there is no replacement for him. He is the father of my children and the man with whom I pledged to grow old and just because he has decided to go back on his vows does not mean that I can do the same as easily as he has. I canít. Itís just not in my DNA. So I have to take the time I need to get through this in a way that is true to my values and honours the love that we shared. Sounds like this may be your path as well.

I know what you are going through Dave. Stepping back and letting your W do what she thinks she needs to do is so counterintuitive. I know you want to hang on and you feel like that if you give her what she says she wants, you are sending her the message that you donít care or that you are in favour of breaking up your family. The thing that you need to realize is that she is, in her mind, already gone and there is nothing you can say to to change her mind right now. Every time you try to, you push her away. It is pressure. And it is so easy to do. Honestly, at the beginning of this, my H was waffling. I should have stepped back and gone completely dark but instead I pursued him...often in really subtle ways so that I didnít even realize I was doing it. Only now that I know better, can I look back and realize that I may have forced his hand a bit. Would we still have gotten to the point we are at now? Probably but Iíll never know and maybe that is a good thing. Anyway...my point is that the sooner you start doing what the people on this board recommend, the better off you will be and the better the chance for R. The time for that is not now though. Right now you need to focus on protecting you and your kids from your wifeís poor choices. Read DR, figure out your 180s and DB like crazy. Donít be cold...be as detached and as neutral as possible. Donít make things easy or hard for her. Set some healthy boundaries. Do not rescue her. Let her solve her own problems. It will get easier, I promise. And while you are saving yourself, you may just save your marriage too. But you have to save yourself first. (((HUGS)))l


Me 51
H 46
B/G Twins 11
SD19
Legal SA - January 2019
Divorce filed - June 2019
Divorce final - November 2019

Together 14 years
Married 12 years
BD1 - May 2014
BD2 - September 14, 2018

Re: Marriage and depression [Re: MoveFrwd] #2834121
01/24/19 11:53 AM
01/24/19 11:53 AM
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Posts: 129
Schenectady, NY
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DaveK Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MoveFrwd
People want what they canít have.

Your wife is ďdatingĒ another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.

Iíll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.


I always loved my wife, not just now. I moved across the ocean for her. Anything she ever wanted to do I supported her, be it culinary school or violin lessons or taking classes at college for fun. Whenever she made it clear to me that she is upset I corrected whatever it was immediately. But most of the time she did not say a thing. She said she didn't say anything because she did not want to hurt me. I have a big heart, I never not cared about her and my family, but I cannot read minds.

The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.


me: 45 wife: 44
son: 13 son: 17
married in 2000
Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DejaVu6] #2834122
01/24/19 12:08 PM
01/24/19 12:08 PM
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Posts: 129
Schenectady, NY
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DaveK Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
That is EXACTLY how I feel too Dave...exactly.
[...]
Read DR, figure out your 180s and DB like crazy. Donít be cold...be as detached and as neutral as possible. Donít make things easy or hard for her. Set some healthy boundaries. Do not rescue her. Let her solve her own problems. It will get easier, I promise. And while you are saving yourself, you may just save your marriage too. But you have to save yourself first. (((HUGS)))l


Thank you so much for writing this. It is advice I understand and it gives me hope and happiness. Yea, I'm crying again, but this time it is relief....and a hug, even when it is only virtual.
I will work on 180, I will put myself in a better position to control finances (it will be tricky), and I will limit interactions with my wife as much as I can without being mean about it (like running out of the room as soon as she shows up). I will stay busy this weekend and see if my kids want to go to the movies. Haven't done that in a while.

I also have to make plans to make sure bills are paid in April when I am away for two weeks visiting family. My brother turns 50 and he is paying for me to come visit. I haven't seen my family in three years and who knows what happens when I am away entirely. My guess is my wife will move out or cleverly schedule another trip to India a few days before I come back. If she does that I change the locks on the doors. No point in worrying about this, none of that happened and I cannot control it either.
Although my oldest son doesn't really want to talk to me about personal stuff, he is a great kid. Both are. They hugged me when I was really destroyed. We took care of things together. Even with WW out for good, I am sure we will be fine.

"If you want love, you have to go through the pain" - NF


me: 45 wife: 44
son: 13 son: 17
married in 2000
Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DaveK] #2834128
01/24/19 01:10 PM
01/24/19 01:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,045
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MoveFrwd Offline
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Originally Posted by DaveK
Originally Posted by MoveFrwd
People want what they canít have.

Your wife is ďdatingĒ another man and NOW you realize you are desperately in love with her.

Iíll try to post more tomorrow. But think about that.


I always loved my wife, not just now. I moved across the ocean for her. Anything she ever wanted to do I supported her, be it culinary school or violin lessons or taking classes at college for fun. Whenever she made it clear to me that she is upset I corrected whatever it was immediately. But most of the time she did not say a thing. She said she didn't say anything because she did not want to hurt me. I have a big heart, I never not cared about her and my family, but I cannot read minds.

The core reason I came here is to find help and support. I appreciate all the responses, but scolding me for things past that may not even have happened is not helping me. I get that from my wife already. Sorry for being so blunt...but I stare at the banner at the bottom of the page "Save Your Marriage!". That is what I want to accomplish and that is what I need help with.


I was worried that you would misunderstand my quote and I apologize if you took offense. My point was not directed at you, but at her. Think about your past. Of course you loved (and still love) your wife. Nobody is disputing that. But it took until she said she wanted to leave/find a new boyfriend you to jump into Super H mode. Once you thought you might lose her, you tried to do everything you could to try to "win" her back.

My point is that you need to consider the same psychology when dealing with her. If you let her do whatever she wants, and you are always right there pursuing her, what incentive is there for her to choose to be with you? She knows that she has you dangling on the hook as her "Plan B", so why would she ever choose to give up the excitement and possibility of Plan A? In other words, if she will have you as a a safety net no matter how badly she behaves, then theres no reason for her to try whatever other options she has.

Youre right, this is a marriage saving site. And I and everyone else posting to you wants to help you save your marriage as much as we can. Unfortunately, there isnt a magic "to-do" list that will change your wife's mind and get her to choose you. The analogy I use to think about this is that imagine you and W are out for a walk and she is 3 steps ahead of you. No matter how fast you walk, she will just speed up and always stay 3 steps ahead. Right now, you are killing yourself chasing after her and for no results. Our advice makes no sense, but it's to just stop walking. You dont need to be mean or cold or rude. That would be walking away. Just stop and take your focus off of catching up with her. The catch is that there is no guarantees that your W will ever turn around. Someday, she will probably realize you arent chasing her anymore...but whether that matters to her is out of our and your control. My ex-wife never gave a second thought about turning back, and I am OK with that.

The advice here feels very counter intuitive. I get that. One other question that helped me a lot as I was going through this was "Does your wife have any fear of losing YOU?" If thats a no, then theres a problem. Like I said above, if she knows she wont lose you as an option, then there is no incentive for her to pick you.

I would start by reading the homework Cadet posted to you. Especially the 37 rules and the newcomer with a WW threads. Good luck and stick with us.

Re: Marriage and depression [Re: DaveK] #2834129
01/24/19 01:29 PM
01/24/19 01:29 PM
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MoveFrwd Offline
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Originally Posted by DaveK
Maybe I am dense, but how would cutting her off financially, making things worse for her, being cold, and spending more time away from home (I do plan to take the kids as much as possible...movies or sth, but within reason). If someone did that to me I would feel as if they really hate me. Why does this work? What does it accomplish? Especially when I feel miserable doing it?

This is what I was trying to quote last night. It works, because it is you standing up for yourself. It is you enforcing your boundaries. It is about not being her doormat. And that is ATTRACTIVE in a mate. You know all those movie tropes of Steve McQueen or James Dean or whatever. Thats kind of the concept. Its almost like the less they care about the girl, the more the girl wants them. It's kind of messed up, but it's also kind of how the world works.

So thats where you should be focusing. How can I be more attractive? And furthermore, how can I earn back her respect? If someone was stealing money from you, would you open your wallet up and give them your bank account numbers? If someone was treating you badly, would you continue to provide them emotional support?

The advice here is not to 'punish' your W per se. It's more about figuring out how you deserve to be treated by the people around you and holding everyone (including W) to that standard.

Originally Posted by DaveK
My values are to provide and care about those who are dependent on me, foremost my children. I don't want them to have even more disruption in their lives than they already have. That includes trying hard to keep the house they grew up in.

Great. Keep providing for you and for them. And part of that includes providing for your W. Nobody is suggesting that she needs to sleep on a rock outside in the backyard. Unfortunately, remember, you cant control W. So all you can do is put yourself in the best position for reconciling. Accept that you may fail. Even still, you can help control how much disruption exists in your kids lives.

Originally Posted by DaveK
I also believe in total loyalty. Months ago I was seeking a replacement for my wife for lack of a better word, but all the time it just felt wrong. I did befriend one woman closer, but we never met and I eventually broke off any contact. I am still married and that means something to me, even if my wife sees it totally differently.

Great. Be loyal.
But accept that your W isnt.
So how are you going to hold true to your values when the people close to you dont meet your standards?

Originally Posted by DaveK
My ideals are to have a family where we stick together, where we forgive even bigger flaws, where we love and respect each other, where my kids have a mother, where we do not fear coming home wondering what the next blow will be. A home where we are honest, where we can talk about anything, and where we can tell each other if we are upset about something the other did.

This sounds great. And you can certainly uphold your end.
Again, you cant control your W's actions. So how will you protect yourself and your ideals when she spits in the face of these values?

Originally Posted by DaveK
I want a happy home with a happy family....right now we are miles away from that because my WW is ridiculously stupid and throws away everything she (and we) worked so damn hard for the past 20 years. Half of our lives just down the drain? I have no idea what the heck happened to her. How much of that is her depression? I read a lot about depression and the impact on a marriage and she checks off all the boxes. I have a moral problem with that. She has an illness, she is sick. Would I do the same if she had cancer or was paralyzed?

I am curious. What would you say YOU contributed to the downfall of your marriage? It isnt a one-way street where she just woke up one day and wanted to mess up everything. Accept that this is a long term decision that she finally came to after years of trouble. Another metaphor I used for myself was imaging my wife as a lake freezing upwards. You probably didnt notice it until the lake had frozen over, but it took years of pain and anguish for her to get to the point where it looks like "she snapped". THOSE are places you should be looking at for your 180s.

Originally Posted by DaveK
It was a rough day. Game board meetup was fun, but I have to turn my mind off now, watch a movie and sleep. And yes, I do sleep somewhat OK, I do eat, and as time allows I go to the gym. I still look like a potato, but I always have.

FUN is good. I imagine you spent two hours while playing that game with your mind relaxed and not obsessing over your marriage. What other outlets do you have for that?

By the way, I joined a board game meetup right as my sitch was starting. It was the best thing that ever happened. I am sure I wouldnt be in the place where I am today without that.

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