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The forums on Divorce Busting are filled with so much great information. As I read through the posts, I like to grab the nuggets of gold and share.

I wish everyone well during these difficult times. Remember that everything will be OK no matter what the WAS chooses. Keep doing the right thing. Get in alignment with your core values. Stop doing what is not working. Try new ways of interacting. Let go of the past and do not fear the future. Be in the present. Commit to personal growth. Set goals for the future and keep taking steps to get there. Read about boundaries and learn how to set and enforce them.

As far as the wayward spouse, always assume the wayward spouse is in an A (Hint:This is your first 180). Do not reveal anything about what you know and how you found out. "We both know that is a lie." is a great way to deal with any deception.

Previous quote threads:
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (6)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (5)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (4)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (3)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (2)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (1)

Link to a recap of my sitch

God bless you all


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Maika's Post
Originally Posted by Maika
When people ask here about 'successful' reconciliations (where the relationship was restored and in piecing), the most common and obvious pattern is that the LBS did the following things - took accountability for their shortcomings, engaged in personal growth in professional and personal lives, walked the path of detachment and letting go, reduced contact and demolished any expectations, improved their emotional fitness, and got a life. It is about a complete mindset transformation and then following through with action.

So, that's what needs to happen. Because the outcome will always be you becoming a full human being and reclaiming your life - it's story and future trajectory. It creates empowerment and peace. I have never been at more peace in my life than I am now, and that is no small feat. For the first time in my adult life, I am excited about what my life is going to bring me. I don't recall being like this since I was a kid - full of hope.

This is completely achievable and not only that, it is a way better place to be.

I will add that your DBing should not be focused on your spouse. If you DB while having the goal of impressing your ex with your newfound badassery, you will fail. They can detect pursuit from a mile away.

Last edited by Joe2017; 01/07/19 04:06 AM.

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Originally Posted by SoTorn
She decided to say "f**k everyone else's feelings, only I matter"

What I'm getting at is that your WW, just like mine, made the hateful and disgusting decision to start another relationship before ending the current one. That's 100% on them and not on us. You have no idea if anything you did differently would have avoided that. Stop dwelling on it and just be the man that you want to be now.

You are just bringing yourself down. There is a reason the windshield in a car is much larger than the rear view mirror. Because what's in front of us is more important than what's behind us


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4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1")
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You are getting some great advice, but much more importantly- you are FOLLOWING the advice.
Well done! I know it's not easy as your intuition is probably telling you to do something else, but in dealing with a wayward the "tough love" approach is the only one that works. It's frankly not a lot different than dealing with a drug addict.....Someone addicted to heroin is more than happy to swear to give it up within an hour or so of their last hit but those are hollow words indeed.

Wait until the withdrawals are in full swing and THEN see what their attitude is, most can think of nothing more than getting another hit no matter what damage it means to their life. It is the same with your W. She is a liar, it goes hand-in-hand with the cheating. So really what she is committing to is to lie about all things great and small to make you think she's "come clean"....she needs to show those things consistently for MONTHS before you should be willing to believe that maybe she's serious.


That should be the challenge you pose to her. Give up OM, offer full transparency (give you all social media passwords, access to her phone whenever you want) and show you consistent, changed behavior for 2 or 3 months minimum and THEN you can discuss where to go from there. A wayward who is still a wayward will not accept these terms and will call you controlling and manipulative and accuse you of not having faith and trust (as if they deserve that!) A truly repentant WAS who genuinely wants to save the M will be willing to do this and more though.



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Originally Posted by LB55
I will ask my lawyer about it too, but I like to bounce things off sensible people that have been there and done that. While W is irrational and unreasonable I have to be the opposite. Getting the most data points helps one make the best decisions possible.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Clearly your W will lie to get what she wants, so you must play the game too and that means being the calm, steady guy who doesn't get goaded into petty behavior.


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Originally Posted by SoTorn
I am loving myself, I have lost 85lbs, I'm working on getting cut, I do a ton with my kids, i do a ton with friends and alone, i started school, I have been reading like crazy. I'm kicking a$$ at work and will be up for a promotion soon. I have been GAL like a madman and going out of town.

Honestly I'm very happy with myself. I just look at my WW now and I'm like wow, why did I think it was ok to be treated this poorly for so long? I mean years of emotional abuse. I'm no angel, but hell I recognized the a$$hole in myself and erased him. I guess I was hoping that me mellowing out, making confident decisions for myself and not fighting with WW may make her try and change.


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Originally Posted by TNhiker
I guess I my biggest question is: How can I win my wife back if we have virtually no contact?
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
You go grab life by the balls. Kick ass at work, make lots of money, get a great personal life, take great care of your hygiene, dress well, bust it in the gym, run, play sports, travel, hunt, take your kids out for the time of your life, make yourself a better, happier man. And people will say "Wow, TNhiker is really doing well" and you'll be feeling like "Wow, TNhiker is really doing well" and she'll be thinking "Wow,TNhiker is really doing well" and then everyone will want a piece of you.

You CAN do this.


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Originally Posted by kiro
Everywhere I researched on cheating spouses, I found the same recommendation, to not try to stop the A and to let it take its course. In my case, a few days after my W told me she was in love with someone else, I asked her to choose between him and me. She said she chose me, but I'm pretty sure she was lying. (5 months later, she left).

Later on, I started understanding why the recommendation to leave the A take its course. Like everything else about WAS/WW, to be able to reconcile, the WW needs to go through their full cycle and realize by themselves that the grass is not greener on the other side, start seeing their own issues and wanting to come back to the LBS.

If they are pressured by a pursuing LBS, most WWs will run away but I think that some WWs don't have the courage to run and will just give up their fantasy including the A. (This is why, my WW always talked about her courage to leave.). But when they give up their A out of pressure and fear, they continue to fantasize about it and they feel that they have missed out on an opportunity to be happy. In your case, you initiating BD may have caused a similar effect on her. She never got into full blown WW, but she may be still lost.



Originally Posted by LH19
This I believe whole heartily. That's why when the WW/WH says I want a divorce. The only response should be "Do you need help packing your bags"?



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Originally Posted by SoTorn
Should I approach the WW to see if she can agree to just file for divorce together?
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Only if you want to divorce her. And if you did, you would have filed already. So give her time and space. Take your time and space to heal, grow, and improve yourself.


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Whether you want them to be or not, your actions are the true message you send to others. You may verbal tell someone you are unhappy with them, but if you then give them something nice or preform an act of service, you are actually expressing that you are willing to do what they want even if they don't deserve it. That's a message of WEAKNESS and a display of LOW VALUE.


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"You can't win the war against the world if you can't win the war against your own mind." - Will Smith


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Originally Posted by Cadet
Originally Posted by Steve85
Thanks everyone for the support and prayers. Greatly appreciated. Things are better, and I am back to working on MR 2.0 and trying to improve things. However, I still have pangs of thinking maybe I should I have just insisted she follow through on her plan to get a job, get her own place, and D. I wonder often what that would look like today. I guess I am being a typical human-being in that I want my cake and eat it too.

Glad you are back on track.

I guess one of the things I think you need to look at is this.
People cycle up and down, hot and cold.
This obviously includes you too.
So in DB we suggest you sit back - take a deep breath and wait
for the cycle to complete before you make a big decision.
Having your cake and eating it too are fine for the long term but
be careful that you make decisions about it in the short term.

LOVE is a CHOICE not a feeling,
so be sure it is what you are choosing to do, for the right reasons.


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Originally Posted by burned
Its easier to focus on whats wrong with other people because then I dont have to focus on whats wrong with me. And I always have 3 or 4 fingers pointed back at me. .,... but now my own demons are staring me in the face and telling me, Youre going to go through this again and hurt another innocent beautiful creature if you dont fix it. Thats what Ive been told here, over and over, but I dont think I was ready to hear it until now.


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Originally Posted by Accuray
Here's what's behind her blaming you and re-writing history: she knows she's doing something she shouldn't, she knows she's wrong, but at the same time, what she's doing is really exciting and makes her feel really good!

That's a bind -- she shouldn't do this, but she can't help herself from continuing.

When that happens, people will initially beat themselves up and feel very guilty for what they are doing, but human nature is that you can only feel bad about yourself for so long and then a preservation instinct kicks in.

When that happens, it goes something like this: "I'm doing a bad thing, but I'm not a bad person. So if I'm not a bad person, someone else must be *making* me do this, and *they* must be the bad person"

Since you're the only other one in the relationship, they'll latch on to you as the cause of the problem, and will then re-write history, invent things, and look for any little thing you do that supports they stories they are telling themselves.

It is a very sophisticated form of self-hypnosis so that they can justify and continue their behavior without the attendant guilt they had been feeling.

If you're then remorseful, apologetic, and pursue them, it reinforces that you must be acting this way because you did something wrong, and it makes your situation even worse!

Your very best move here from a psychological perspective is to completely go the other way. You leave her versus her leaving you. Don't accept anything she's telling you about this being your fault, just outright reject it. Don't compromise on that, don't think you'll be a nice guy and meet in the middle, feel free to make her angry. She needs to believe that you consider yourself to be more valuable than the treatment you've been getting.

You need to establish your value, by not allowing yourself to be in a relationship with someone who is not faithful. You can't control what she does, there's no way you can do that, but you CAN control what treatment you will and will not accept.

Moving away from her emotionally is scary and seems counter-intuitive, but its absolutely the best move you can make.

Think back to dating -- who is more intriguing to you, a person who easily falls into your arms, or a person who is hard to get? Which one is more attractive?


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Originally Posted by Steve85
I am going to give you the secret to saving your marriage.....I was an information gathering machine. My #1 GAL activity was reading self-help books, both personal and marital. I paid for private counseling sessions with some of the experts......Of all the experts' advice, there was one tactic that worked more than any other. It seemed the most counter-intuitive of all of the tactics....

So what was this counter-intuitive tactic that seemed to be the most successful at saving marriages? Do you want to know the one thing you can do above all others to give you the best chance at saving your marriage? Here it is:

Stop trying to save your marriage.

That right. Of all the advice I received about things I could do. Things I could say. Tactics I could employ. The one that got the most praise for actually working, and the one that worked best in my sitch, was to NOT try to save my marriage. Letting go. Giving up. Telling her that while I didn't agree with the choice she was making that I would do nothing to stand in her way. Dropping the rope. Moving on. That was what worked the best!

I remember the first chink in the armor of her resolve to leave the marriage. It was as we were leaving to go to Christmas dinner with her family. "I said, wow it just hit me that this will be the last time I celebrate Christmas with your family." She immediately launched into this diatribe about how she didn't want to say anything about leaving until after the holidays because she thought that once all of the holiday fanfare died down that maybe she would have a change of heart and not want to leave. And then she could spare us all of the pain and drama (remember I initiated BD).

The second time I saw her having doubts was once I established a boundary about if we were going to stay together I could only do so if she was open to complete transparency. She then said "Okay then I need to get my resume together." I offered to help her, and offered to buy her any books she wanted on resume writing and interviewing. She spent the next half day working on her resume, with my being completely onboard with her decision, until she came out of the office in tears talking about how she knew Ding was wrong, and that God hated D, and that it would be better if we could work things out.

Every time I pursued, pressured, chased, tried to get her to stay.............that was when she resolved to leave. Every time I showed her I was perfectly fine with her leaving, and even endorsed it, she start having second thoughts.

Newbies. DROP THAT ROPE. Get a life. 180 on your poor behavior for yourself. Detach from your WAS. Do all of that, but above all stop trying to save your marriage. By doing that you just might save it anyway.


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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
H and I are going to try a 2-3-2 schedule. M,T with one parent, W,Th,F with other parent and Sat,Sun with the parent who had the M,T that week. Switches every week. i.e. H, H, W, W, W, H, H and the next week... W, W, H, H, H, W, W and then back to H, H... Well see how it goes...


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Just because she's not the person you thought she was doesn't mean it's time to be rude, you're better than that. Keep your chin up and don't stoop to poor behavior for any reason.


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Quote
Why is she doing it? Below I will post everything we have learned over the years on why WAS's do what they do:

"_______________________________________________________________________"

There you have it, the shortest book ever!

Seriously though, the short answer is she is cake-eating. She likes the comfort and security of the M but she also wants to be "free" to pursue a different life if and when she so chooses.


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Originally Posted by LB55
This whole thing as I am learning is not about making her want you back; its about making yourself a man that anyone would want to be with. She may see the changes and think twice; she may never look back. Either way if you work on yourself you come out ready for taking on the world.


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Originally Posted by SoTorn
My WW stopped sex on BD when she moved upstairs. That's when she felt "bad" for having sex with two men at the same time and felt she was cheating on OM by having sex with me.


This is so true! And LBSs it is important to understand this point. By BD your MR is over. Your WAS has moved on in their mind, and anything they do with you is, in their head, cheating on the OP. Sickening. Gut wrenching. Terrible. But true.


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Wow wow wow, yes Steve. Question for you, a quote like that and the truth behind it are things that I have consciously told myself I will not relive while my sitch is in limbo because like you said it is sickening and very troubling to ponder.

From your experience during R, were these thoughts discussed with your W?


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lost8, no. The thing about R that I have learned is that sometimes the problems we are concentrating on (EAs, PAs, walkaway) are not THE problems. And we you fix the real problems (lack of connection, being a bad spouse, etc) the symptoms that we thought were problems go away.

I have considered sharing this forum with her but I think it is too early in my R. Eventually I think I will get to the point where I tell her about this site, but for now I try not to relive it.


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Honestly I don't think you should ever share, way too much emotion I feel and could be painful for a WW to see what has been inflicted on someone she cares about.

I know it is talked about the point when a WS becomes transparent and answers requests of the LBS I guess before true R can take place. I never experienced this after A #1 10 years ago and know we must get there this time before moving forward.


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From my notes:

Quote
You don't have a conflict with the person, but with a PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR
Quote
You want to confront a particular behavior and not the person
Quote
"Look, this is something that I've wanted to tell you, but I've been uncomfortable about it, and haven't wanted to say it"


This is best used when the R is at a point where both people are willing to listen to each other.



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Originally Posted by Gekko
ABC, always be cool. Maintaining control in the face of W's shyt-tests and BS makes me feel fantastic.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Well, like I said before you kind of painted yourself into a corner with that. I think the convo could have been a lot shorter than that, but it sounds like it went well enough. I hope others will read your posts and take a lesson from it that D should not be initiated by the LBS unless you are absolutely, positively sure you are doing it for the right reasons and not just out of anger or to "wake her up" or teach her a lesson.


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Originally Posted by Mach1
Slow down buddy, and act rather than RE-act...

This isn't about you, probably has never been about you.

You have been given a gift of some incredible advice. Slow down, be still, and really understand what has been said to you.

Stop snooping
Stop asking questions that you don't want the answers to
Set some personal goals that don't include a marriage
Get out of the house
Stop blaming her for your actions
Stop holding her accountable for your emotional well being
Find out who you are, what you want, what this all means to you....
Realize that you are never gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into...

Relax, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

You get to decide way more than you might think.

Spend this time getting ready for those decisions...

So that the possible worst thing that has happened to you, doesn't define you...




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Originally Posted by Mach1


Posting here is great when you are going through the battle. You learn to detach, and how to stand on your own again, how to block out the noise, and to not believe what you hear, and about half of what you see.

It teaches you to really take a look at yourself, and respect your space, choices, and life on your own.

we are anonymous, so all I have to go by, are your words, and patterns of words.

What you type, is what I know about you.



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Originally Posted by LH19
I will give you the best example of being detached i have read below.

Today I will commit myself to detachment. I will allow myself and those around me the freedom to be as they are. I will not rigidly impose my idea of how things should be. I will not force solutions on problems, thereby creating new problems. I will participate in everything with detached involvement.

Today I will factor in uncertainty as an essential ingredient of my experience. In my willingness to accept uncertainty, solutions will spontaneously emerge out of the problem, out of the confusion, disorder, and chaos. The more uncertain things seem to be, the more secure I will feel, because uncertainty is my path to freedom. Through the wisdom of uncertainty, I will find my security.

I will step into the field of all possibilities and anticipate the excitement that can occur when I remain open to infinity of choices. When I step into the field of all possibilities, I will experience all the fun, adventure, magic, and mystery of life.


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Originally Posted by FlySolo
I can only speak from my own experience, but the level of communication I had depended on the level I needed to heal. Whilst my emotions were still at the mercy of his behaviour / mood swings, then it was best for me to keep it polite, but to the bare minimum. If I did this, then there was less for me to analyse and dissect and less for me to get hurt or angry about. I could not heal if all my thoughts were about him, about what he meant when he said 'I'll see you later tonight" or "I'll drop the children off at ...". At first, detachment is something you do (you force yourself to do it because every fibre of your being is working against detaching) but eventually it is something you become.

Once I was no longer affected by him, then I relaxed my stance. We have moved beyond the "yes", "no" and no response to informational texts. Ours are polite and well meaning but not lengthy or funny. Be careful detachment doesn't turn into rudeness.

Casual acquaintances - the neighbor you don't really know but say hello to if you run into them. If you ran into your neighbor in the store, you'd say hello, make small talk and then merrily go on your way and not give it another thought. For me, that is detachment.


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Originally Posted by LH19
Look man it's easy for me to see things because I have been on this board for over 4 years. I joke sometimes that it's like the movie Groundhogs Day here.

I don't want you to give up. I just want you to understand that from this point forward all your decisions should be made from a place of strength and for what is best for Bo and his children.


You are so young and have your entire life ahead of you. You will bounce back from this I promise you. I know you don't believe it now but this was probably a blessing in disguise.

Keep your chin up.


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Originally Posted by Hurt213
This is where you will find the appropriate sparing from people having lived, what you are right now. The confusion, the questions, the wondering - What you will realize, and maybe you already have begun to, is that the general sitch with a WW is not special. There are SO many parallels you can draw between most of the stories on this board. So what makes every story have a different outcome? i'll tell you:

The LBS does... This is what is so hard to understand, and something that took me many months to comprehend. This is not about your WW, this is about you. The sooner the LBS realizes that this is not about their WW, but about themselves, the sooner they find the right path to walk.

Will this path salvage your relationship? No, this ship has sailed. You need to embark upon a new journey, a journey that evolves around you, and the passengers on your boat are people who wants to be here, because your boat fuchin rocks... You are the captain of the party boat, and you don't want anyone ruining your party.

You seem to have been doing some research already. Keep it up, make this about you.. 180 on the things that you know inside you have to, reflect on your process, go dim / dark depending on kids. Let her live her life the way she wants to, because you can't force anyone to do what they don't want to, and honestly, who wants a relationship like that...

so..

- detach
-180
-GAL
- Whenever you think you have a GREAT idea that you should swing by her, don't.... come here first, present it and take the advice beforehand. Trust me, it will save you from a lot of mental pain because, the idea might not be that great after all when you get the advice from the veteran perspective.

I hope the very best for you... You can be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave, you just have to choose to be.

Do not put her on a pedestal, do not only think about all the great things (we tend to do that). Reflect on what you contributed to in this downfall - complacency? neediness? lack of goals?

I know I might come off as hard, but really, I mean this in the best way possible - learn from my mistakes, and do not make them yourselves. That can be the difference between your story, and lots of the stories in here - the fact, that you choose to be the LBS that shows that you know what you are worth, and that you won't settle with left over cake.

Have the best day man!

Sorry English is not my mother-tongue, hope you get the general idea of what I am trying to write at least smile

/hurt


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Originally Posted by Steve85
I think you are reacting too much to her, and not acting from a place of knowledge. Let give you an example:

You go into detail about your bad behavior. You find out she is looking into D, you confront, she BDs you with the ILYBIAMNILWY, and you immediately change.

When WAWs get to the point where they are considering D, and they ILYBIAMNILWY bomb you, this didn't happen over night. The WAW goes on that journey over a long period of time. In fact, usually it takes about a year for the WAW to give up on the marriage. And another year before they BD their LBH. You may have shortcut that a bit by being the one to find out about her desire to D and initiating BD, but the point is that she has been headed that direction for at least a year, if NOT 2 years!

The flakiness you are seeing is very consistent with most WAWs here. During that 1-2 years they are very susceptible to OM. It very well could be she has one, either as an EA and/or a PA. I would do some recon to try and find out because if she is in an active PA that jeopardizes your health! You need to know. I would stop all sexual activity until you are sure she is not in a PA.

You have already gotten some good advice otherwise. Detach. It sounds like you are doing fairly well here. When a WAW starts asking "what's wrong" then they have noticed that you are giving the space they have asked for. That is not a bad thing. Loving detachment WILL be noticed. And staying friendly, upbeat, and present, like it sounds like you are, is the key. But not allowing her emotions, actions and words to have an emotional impact on you will get her attention.

GAL. Do not skimp on this. Get into IC. When she asks about it: "I realize that some of the underlying issues that caused me to behave the way I did need to be addressed professionally." Rarely will a WAW, that is still on the fence, react negatively to their LBH trying to improve himself. Take up new things, rekindle old friendships (with other guys!), be busy!

And keep up the 180s. You know what got you here, you did a good job detailing it. Make sure you do not let your guard down on the 180s. One slip back to the old MIkey can undo weeks and months of hard work.

One thing I am noticing is a tendency on your part to rationalize your mistakes. 180 on that. Own your mistakes. You screwed up and got your truck repo'd. You can claim temporary insanity or whatever defense you alluded to above. DON'T DO THAT. OWN IT. You screwed up. Be stand up about it. You admit trying to hide it from her. Look at every great fall in history, rarely was it the first mistake that brought the individual down. It was the cover up. Look at David and Bathsheeba. David's sin with Bathsheeba was adultery. She got pregnant. He then murdered Uriah, her husband, to try to cover it up (after trying to use Uriah to cover it up himself). OWN YOUR MISTAKES. Don't excuse them or try to minimize them by explaining them away.

We all get to choose. None of our choices are out of our control. Own your choices, good or bad.


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Originally Posted by Steve85

Most WW are like upper-management at a Fortune 500 company. They make pronouncements and expect that someone will go do the work for them.

So next time she pressures, have a response like this ready: "I am completely opposed, ethically and morally to divorce. If you want a divorce I can't stop you but I will do nothing to help. I won't hinder it if you insist on divorce, but I won't file, I won't lift a finger in anyway to help with it because it would violate my conscience."


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Read other people's sitches here. One day they are "I am doing it! I am over her! I am detaching!" The next day "I miss her, I don't want to lose, my life will suck without her!" The roller-coaster is real. Avoid thinking you are out of the woods. Avoid thinking everything is dire. Try to float, as much as possible, in the middle. And by all means DO NOT let it inform your next words and actions. Those that struggle the most are those that are most impulsive. Read sandi's rules, study them, know them. You can ruin weeks and months of progress with one impulsive action or word. Don't be that guy.


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Originally Posted by MoveFrwd
This isnt just what "she" is doing to your kids. What have you contributed to the breakdown of your marriage? Placing this kind of blame on her isnt going to bring you two any closer.


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Originally Posted by Gordie
When your w says what she wants

Lets use a mediator

Lets get this done quickly

All you have to do is listen

Say thank you sharing your thoughts with me

Thats it

And if she says do you agree

Or what do you think

Say this is a lot for me to think about

I am not an expert on divorce

So I need to think about it

Then stop talking

She will not like anything that is less than full agreement with her plan

Not your problem

Time is on your side


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Originally Posted by jeepdog
Folks that have been through this, what are the specific things you changed about yourself?


Originally Posted by Steve85
I reversed on a lot of bad behavior. Here they were:

- Overly critical of her housekeeping
- Very short-tempered, when she tried to get my attention I would let it be known she was interrupting me
- Very impatient with her, my D, stranger in the car in front of me, etc.
- Very withdrawn in my own world, watched TV a lot by myself in MBR (W and D were in livingroom)
- Came to dinner, prayed for thanksgiving, ate as fast as I could, went right back into MBR
0r - Came to dinner, prayed for thanksgiving, took food into MBR and ate by myself
- Nicer to strangers and acquaintances than to her
- Made cutting jokes about her around friends and family
- Criticized everything she did. How she drove, how much toothpaste she put on her toothbrush, etc.
- Left all household duties to her (taking care of dogs, laundry, picking up the counter, etc) (I did some things but never helped her with some of the things.)
- Scrutinized every penny she spent

I am sure the list is longer. That list is shameful. I am surprised I was able to get her to stay eventually. But I 180'd on it all. I got into C to cement these changes. I read voraciously about marriage saving, and self-improvement.

It is a year on and I have not engaged in any of these behavior since BD. IN fact, I have done just the opposite of those:

- No longer criticize her housekeeping, and express gratitude to her when she does things around the house
- I happily, and upbeatedly give her my full attention whenever she gets my attention
- I am patient with her and D. And I have been much more patient in general.
- I do not isolate myself. I spend a lot of time with W watching shows she likes. Conversing with her. Laughing and joking with her! (Do not underestimate that last part!! She has commented how much more fun I am to be with due to the laughing and cutting up.)
- I eat dinner with them by sitting at table, conversing, sharing how my day was, asking about theirs. being fully engaged with them. I eat slower. I sit and talk even after I am finished. I help clean up the table.
- I am sweet and nice to her. I adore her and realize she is the most important person in my life! I treat her like the queen I always should have. I love doing things for her and jump the minute she asks for a favor or help.
- I brag about her to others, both when she isn't around and when she is. I never say anything derogatory even jokingly to her or about her. I compliment her both publicly and privately.
- I never criticize her. I realize now that I am not always right and everyone (especially her) else is not always wrong if they do things differently. I realize that she is more important than getting to a place in the optimal path, or that we go through a tube of toothpaste in a week. She is my queen, and I treat her as such!
- I help with household duties. I clean up after meals, help take care of the dogs and cat, I try to do as much as she does, and do it happily and without grudge! (ANOTHER 180!!)
- I let her use her own judgement on spending. I no longer nitpick every penny she spends. I even limit my own spending so that she can spend more.

Marriage is about sacrifice! And once you realize how appreciated these things are it no longer feels likes sacrifice! I do these things now because I love her and I WANT to do them!


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Don't tell her she's being disrespectful after the fact as that just sounds like blame. You need to do it WHEN she is being disrespectful. THAT is the time to state "I am not going to be treated with disrespect like this" and then walk away, or leave the house or whatever it takes to send her a message that you're not putting up with it.


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Originally Posted by Hurt213
You are kind, you have insight, you are beautiful, and I type all of this, without having ever, and will most likely never cross paths with you in real life.

You say you will never get, how a person can act like your husband has, and still is. Well, you are right, because only he can justify his behavior and his reasons - and you know what, that is a bloody hard thing to realize, because if he thinks its right, then, its right, and nobody can or should convince him otherwise - the world doesn't work that way even though we all wish it did from time to time.

One thing stepped out to me, in your last entry here. and I think maybe, that is because you made it in capitol letters. LET GO, thats right. That is basically all you can do, and should do. Doormats are 2 bucks in the nearest wallmart, and you girl, you are priceless, so dont be that doormat.

Let him live his life, while you find yourself. Let him sort out the mess he is, and do not partake in that journey. Listen to him, try to understand his perspective, but do so, with a very rationel mindset - dont trust his words, validate them but let them pass, and let his actions speak for him, and its pretty clear that his words and actions have not been going in the same direction - which is why we just validate, but believe only half of what they say.

Sort out your life, you sound so strong, but you need to stop being the victim. He hurt you, dear. He hurt you bad. But you know what, get up, make a list of what needs to happen for you RIGHT now, in order to not depend on him for anything, in order for you to be in a state, where you are in control of you, that will empower you greatly. Start working on that list. Set up deadlines, because that will keep you focused on completing those goals, instead of sliding back when emotions kick in, and you feel sad, hurt and like the world is too much.

Be that independant woman, who takes charge, who creates a life for you and your family (f... him for now, NO not literally) - and then he will see in time, that you are who we all see, a special, kind, and loving woman who deserves someone who appreciates all your qualities.

Maybe that will knock him off the rails, and realize what he lost, and maybe, you dont care by then. If you do, then you have an entirely new view on your life, and you will be able to rationalize by then, if he is really worth betting on. I am sure, a lot would have to change when you are at that place in time.

Hugs!


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Last thing you want to do right now is break into pursuit because she will pull back hard. Do you know the squirrel analogy? It's like feeding a squirrel, you've got to hold perfectly still and let the squirrel approach you. If you make any moves at all the squirrel will go running up the tree and it starts all over again.


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Originally Posted by Miler
For me, detaching is allowing each of us to have the space and freedom to be who we are, not to be enmeshed or co-dependent. Letting go of control...particular of her. It also means that I have to be to a point where I don't rely on her or the relationship for happiness...or any of my mood states for that matter. Right now, I'm afraid my hopes and mood are dependent on our interactions...which is why I'm conveying that this is hard.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Great advice from R2C and Steve. Also try and master the art of remaining cool, calm and collected and having a poker face.

W: blah blah blah
You: (serene face)
W: BLAH BLAH BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
You: (serene face)
W: booo hooo hoooo oh woah is me
You: (serene face)

Just remember, water off a duck's back. She's riding the ups and downs of a roller coaster, you're over on the grass enjoying a picnic.

Link to original.


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Originally Posted by jeepdog
She is beyond angry at me today.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Yes because you are finally standing up for yourself and not letting her steamroll you so she's gone to Plan B which is "get mean and angry until he comes back under my control". If you stick to your gameplan then at some point you can expect Plan C which is "cry and pout and act miserable until he comes back under my control." Plan D is "dangle the carrot" where she will make you promises of rekindling the relationship, if only you will just leave the house for a few months. When that fails she will loop back around and repeat.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Wolfman
One of her complaints of me from the past is that I didnt listen to her all the time.
Your wife has a story to tell. Your job is to listen to her story. It is not to agree or disagree or control. It is to understand her story. If you can reflect back her feelings, then do that. H"W, that must have been frustrating."

This is extremely important when she is talking about you. Do not take it personally.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
"I am not ready to discuss this. I have a lot to process and this has all come at me so quickly. If you need to move forward, go ahead. I will not try to stop you, but I need time to consider everything."

Don't be pushed to discuss things you aren't comfortable discussing.


Originally Posted by Steve85
"I hadn't thought of it that way. Let me think a little more about your request."


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Originally Posted by Steve85
I would suggest you setting up a signature like many of us has. Showing your age, her age, kids ages, and significant dates (BD, etc). It is very helpful. I know that my advice for LBSs that have kids is very different than for LBSs without kids. Kids complicate things greatly.


click on your name up to the right under Michelle's video, and then select Edit Profile. Signature is part of the profile.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Wolfman
because she wont see we had a great marriage. There was no infidelity, abuse, drugs, alcohol or gambling.


Flip this around. Look through "her eyes":
"He doesn't see that we had a bad marriage. There was no connection, no romance, he doesn't listen to me, he just wants to argue and control me." (Or whatever issues she has)


List out things like this. Then figure out your 180s.




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Originally Posted by Hurt213
So I stumbled upon a line today, that really made me think, holy cow, this makes sense. It doesnt apply to all of the sitches, but for some of us, it clarifies some patterns we engage in our minds when we are crosschecked by the marriage breakers aka ww's.

I dont recall it word by word and unfortunately I don't recall the webpage from where I stumbled upon it, but it goes something like this..

"When my kids were younger, and their rooms were a big mess, I would ask them to clean up their clothes and toys - most of the time, they wouldn't acknowledge my request, and just left it be. I took the approach of taking one of their old toys from their toys shelf, typically a piece that they hadn't played with in years (a mcdonalds happy meals toy for example), something they know they have, but disregarded completely. Then I would take said toy, and I would let them know that it was going in the trash, since I was now cleaning up their mess. The thing was, that every time this happened, my kids would have big protests, and would declare that I was mean for having thrown that toy away, because it was the best toy in the world and by far their favorite toy".

When I read the above, I just figured - wow... well, that applies for me really, and it has A L O T to do with attachment.

I had my wife, I had my life, I got complacent, and she was my toy on the shelf. I am proud of who I am TODAY, not who I was, so I have no problems admitting, that she was my toy on the shelf, that was not "played" with, the way she deserved - and funny enough, when she left, then she was my favorite toy all of a sudden, the toy I couldn't live without, but at the same time, the toy that wasn't the new toy on the self a month prior to her saying "its not working anymore".

Does this mean I think im 100% to blame? absolutely not
Does it mean it justifies her cheating on me and using me? absolutely not.

Does this mean I am reflecting on myself and my past relationship in order to grow and be better aka finding my 180s? absolutely!

Does this mean I realize, that I made her fill up my every thought and made her the "toy" that I didn't need, until it was trashed, and then I couldn't play with any other toys? absolutely - and I am wiser now. Life will be great.

Take it for what it is - it made a lot sense for me, especially regarding being attached and why that might be that we feel so attached and unable to do anything right after the announcement, when in all honesty, we were perfectly able to when we had our wives /husbands on the "toy shelve".


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Originally Posted by LH19
Every single one of us on this board could have been a better partner. It still blows my mind that out of all the useless courses they have in school/college that don't have anything to teach you how to be a better partner. Accept that you could have been better, learn from it and let it go.

What I think you should focus on with your ex is gaining respect from her. One thing that has always been obvious in your sitch is that she doesn't respect you. Once you can obtain respect, things will slowly change in the dynamic of your relationship.

Forward no more backwards.


Originally Posted by LH19


I don't think there is any question that you are a great father.

Respect starts with how you allow others/her to treat you. No one will ever do or say anything to you that you don't allow them to.

I would start with getting back to the basics. No contact unless about kids or finances. Answer only questions with yes or no answers. Then work on how she talks to you.

W: Hurt (with tone to her voice) "your'e doing it wrong"
H: W, please don't talk to me that way
W: what way?
H: in that tone
W: I'm not
H: please don't do it again (walk away)

You have to get over the fear that what you do or do not say will change anything!




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I guess Im not sure your frame of mind. Which do you think has a more likely chance at a positive outcome?

1) you dragging your feet and making it difficult for you to divorce, causing your marriage to go on longer.
2) you providing information as requested and your W is free to make her own choices

I guess my point is that the more you try to cling to the "marriage", the harder she will try to get away and the more she will resent you. Fight for what you want/deserve in the financial and custodial aspects. But forcing her to stay married longer because "you didnt know anything was wrong" or "you dont believe her claims allow for filing": or whatever other reason will only lead to more resentment and rebellion.


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I am NOT saying to help/move along the process.
I am saying if she asks you for financial details, then its reasonable to give her that. If she wants to sit down with you to discuss a parenting plan, then its reasonable to do that.

Im saying that it isnt your job to make a budget for her. It isnt your job to go out and find a mediator and set the appointment. Im also saying that you shouldnt say "Im going to go to the mediator with you" if you have no intention of doing so.

Let her drive. Your job is to basically let her drive without throwing up roadblocks or putting on the brakes because "yoou dont want a divorce" or "you want to stay married longer" or things like that.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
I think you need to hold the line until you see some of her anger and aggression dissipate. She believes she has control of this situation and has no intention of succumbing to your terms. I suggest you tell her you need space & time away from her b/c you have a lot of decisions to make about your future. Tell her not to be texting, b/c you don't won't be answering......and not to get any of her friends to intervene for her. This will definitely put her focus on wondering what you will do. Let her squirm. Let her get mad. So what? She will probably contact OM out of desperation, but what else is new? If she thinks she's lost her Plan B, she's going to start sweating.......which is good. She needs to worry that she's really lost you!

So, rather than hand her a list of requirements right off the bat, I think I would simply tell her (if she continues to pursue you) that you will need to be convinced things are truly over with her & any third party. If she starts swearing on someone's life or grave.......inform her that unfortunately her word is currently worth very little. If she persists in wanting to save the M or ask what can she do to prove to you........then you can bring up the passwords, transparency, etc.

This is a very critical time, and it's the point that many LBH's don't pull back hard enough b/c they are too eager to save the M and afraid the WW won't pursue. If you are not certain you want to try it again, then take all the time you need.


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Originally Posted by FlySolo
Your H is confused - he wants his freedom and he wants his family - and he is sending you lots of mixed signals.

There is a school of thought that says to wait it out, don't ask, don't pry and don't complain, smile and put your feelings and doubts on the back burner whilst they work out their [censored]. Be there for them when they need you.

There is another school of thought that says don't let him have his cake and eat it too. None or minimal contact, get on with your life, heal and rebuild. He will only truly want to come back when he sees the truth of what he has lost.

I don't know which approach, if either, is the right one. I guess the things that both approaches have in common is that whilst they are sorting themselves out, we, the LBS gets on with life. We don't pursue. We work on us. Focus on you and the right path will reveal itself. GAL and 180.

I am possible wavering towards the don't let him have his cake and eat it too ... so, personally, I would detach a little. Make yourself, if not unavailable, less available. You love him, you want to fix what is broken, but in the meantime, you also have a life.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
There are different ways that recon happen, one way is the WAW has a "eureka" moment and suddenly decides she is back in and will do anything to "fix" things. The other is that she slowly comes back in phases. The problem with the 2nd type is it is hard to tell it from someone who is just "dangling the carrot" to keep the LBH on as Plan B. Right now it's kind of hard to tell which she is. What you need to do is just keep doing what you're doing. Don't be immediately available to her all the time. Keep up your GAL activities. Be mysterious about where you are and what you are doing. Keep being warm and friendly as you have been, but send her the message that you are your own man and living your own life. She can join you or not, that's up to her. But you are awesomely awesome regardless.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I notice a theme where you make a change and then look to her. She notices it, then you wonder why she is still proceeding with the divorce. You also like to read the tea leaves quite a bit. Neither of these behaviors are benefiting you at all. I understand why you are doing them, but it won't help you. You are having a emotion vs. logic battle, so go ahead and ensure that your logic wins this one. You also state that your W may be MLC, well that should be enough to tell you that her actions and words won't be making too much sense. The answer is to detach emotionally and allow yourself to think logically. Be cognizant of your emotions and learn to manage them.

It took a long time to get to the divorce phase, it will take a while to get out of it. Your W is involved in a mental turmoil, and she is not sure about anything. But I think you are hoping your changes are going to "snap her out of it" still. And while they might, nobody knows when or if that will happen. So stop worrying about that.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Are you going to buy her out of the house? If so, you definitely have no reason to leave. You have plenty of time to figure out your living arrangements, no rush to move out in 3.5 weeks. You can always tell your W "I was very upset when I said that, I've decided it's best for me to stay in the house."


or

"I wasn't thinking clearly when I said that..."


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Originally Posted by Steve85
DBing is about doing the opposite of what you think you should do. Better yet, doing NOTHING. Doing nothing is always better than doing the wrong thing, and is almost as good as doing the right thing. Better yet, doing nothing is safer than thinking you are doing the right thing but really doing the wrong thing.


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Originally Posted by Wolfman
So, I am trying to show her I am not that angry, controlling person anymore. Why is this so difficult? I wish I could just get mad and put my feelings aside and me able to move on.
Originally Posted by MoveFrwd


Are you trying to SHOW HER that you arent angry and controlling?

Or are you trying to not BE angry and controlling?

I think there is an important distinction, even if it is just how you talk about yourself.

Frame your thinking around YOU. That way you can feel successful even if she isnt giving you positive feedback.


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Originally Posted by hope2019

I am going to create some goals to get back to being me but if anyone has advice I would really appreciate it:

- Fall Back in Love with my job,
I had started to hate it because it took me away from my family but I need to go back to embracing it (this is easy, they have given me a 2 month project to help me through this time and it's a challenging distraction)

- No Chasing - Letting him come to me
, I'm not sure about going fully no contact, especially as we live together, but letting him to come for conversations, texts, time together etc and enjoying them for what they are, no R talk!

- Relationship Talks - Not initiating any,
letting him talk and validating them, making sure I am engaged, I realized after our talk on Friday that I test him even when he does initiate conversations.

- GAL
- I'm going to make sure my daughter and I do something every weekend, and at least 3 nights a week, whether it be a simple dinner out or something like that, trying to reconnect with old friends, just have something to do a lot (this one I struggle with)

- Missing him
- this one I have forced myself to do better by not initiating contact whilst he has been away. It's made me realize I am ok without him and life does continue when he isn't here (why did I learn this too late) I am also trying to find some self-help books with codependency etc

- Being Fun
- GAL - trying to find my tribe again, we moved away from my close group of friends and I have struggled to find people similar to me, any advice on this!

-Being Flirty and Confident
- I'm tryin to get my confidence back, I have lost 21lbs in the last 3 weeks thanks to the divorce diet, I'm still about 10lbs heavier than when we first met, but that was about 45lbs overweight so 55lbs to go, every time I lose 10lbs I am trying to buy myself something new that I feel good in. Even went to the gym this morning!

- Become more secure with myself
- this one is a bit of a struggle, I think it will come with the confidence but I am trying to find books to read and working with my therapist to feel better on this.

Enjoy my independence
- it's hard when I have my 6D all but 4 nights a month but I am trying to make the most of life after she has gone to bed (although wish I could be more social), and the times I don't have her, I will not waste my day laying in bed crying anymore

Pride
- Trying to be proud of what I have achieved, sounds big headed but I am going to write myself a list, and ask friends and family to help me so I can read that list when I am feeling lost. One of my proudest moments was becoming an American citizen so I refer to that often. I think this list will help me stop feeling jealous of others
Excited to be with his family and friends - Obviously this one can't come unless we Reconcile, but I think during any conversations, me asking about them etc will help. These are good people, I had a choice when they started excluding me (they thought I was taking him away from them, as he wasn't visiting them as much as he had planned), I could either acknowledge their dislike of me and why, prove them wrong and kill them with kindness, or I could shut down and make it difficult for him, realizing now I was manipulating him to spend less time with them rather then us all spending more time with them, I definitely chose the wrong option, but hindsight is 20/20 and I think it was due to my insecurities. I have plans for this if we do reconcile.



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Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I am not your W but I can say that as a woman, I love to be appreciated for who I am outside my looks and my mothering skills (though those are nice things to hear too). One of my major LL are words of affirmation and for me, a compliment isn't just about praise, but about feeling known in a deep and intimate way - that something less obvious about me than how I look or the role I perform in the family has been seen and known and cherished.


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Originally Posted by LH19
This is the problem. What you fear you attract.

Just so you know I am not asking you to confront her I am just telling you that you don't apologize for her BS behavior.

Lets talk about your fears. Why do you fear losing her? Will your life be over? Are you afraid to live alone? Are you afraid you won't find anyone else?

Below is a post I want you to read to help you understand what is happening right now.

Very sorry for what you've gone through here, it's heartbreaking. You've done some things very well and handled the initial situation as well as can be expected. More recently however you're falling into a very familiar pattern that leads to a long period of pain and limbo.

Being in this situation is like dying of thirst floating on a raft in a poison lake. Everyone will tell you not to drink the water, and why you shouldn't drink the water and what will happen to you if you drink the water. You can intellectually understand what they're saying, you "get it", you can convince yourself that you're not going to drink the water, but each night when you go to sleep and each morning when you wake up, you're thirsty as hell and the water is right there, so it's extremely easy to convince yourself that a little sip can't hurt. Despite the fact that you know you should not drink the water, you will just keep doing it because you keep convincing yourself its okay to do so because you're just dying of thirst.

So how do we bring that to your scenario? There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.

You are not safe for her to approach until she feels you've let her go. That's a simple truth, but incredibly hard to accept.

Reaching out to W, making overtures, contacting W's family, talking to OM's W, snooping on W, this is all "drinking the poison water"

Why are you doing it? Why are you so obsessed with W? You were in a relationship with a woman who wasn't meeting your needs, who would irrationally blame you for anything that went wrong, and then cheated on you and lied to you. Why is that a prize worth making the focus of your waking attention?

The reason is that you are grasping to re-establish a feeling of control over your life.

When W dropped the bomb she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.

That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!

You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.

Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.

With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.

You're dying of thirst (feeling out of control), and pursuing W is drinking the water out of the poison lake. You think it will satisfy your thirst each time you do it, but really it's just making you sicker.

We will tell you "don't drink the water!" Intellectually you'll agree, but the water is always there and logically it seems that drinking it is the shortest path to no longer being thirsty.

Instead, you need to paddle your ass to the shore, leave the raft behind, and get a drink somewhere else.

That's not code for having your own affair or finding a new woman to have a relationship with. It has to do with finding an authentic way to rebuild your feeling of being in control, controlling your own destiny and getting your mojo back.

If you take the focus off of W *completely* she will notice. That will give her space to breathe, and to think. That's the only way these things turn around -- the ONLY way.

Don't drink the water. I know its right there. Don't drink it.
There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.




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Originally Posted by LH19
I am going to be completely blunt with you. If you don't change your behavior immediately, you are going to dig yourself into a hole you will not be able to get out of and it will end badly for you. You caught your wife sending completely inappropriate texts to another man and you collapse and apologize WTF??????? She forgave you WTF????

Look man I know this stuff is not easy but the first thing you need to do is find your b@lls and let her know this is completely unacceptable behavior to you. You can't control her but if you let her walk all over you I guarantee it will end badly for you.

Please read up on boundaries and start to think about whether you are ok being in an open marriage.


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Originally Posted by Phoenix9
I feel like D5 will look at us when she is older and ask why this all went down. What am I going to say?
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Just tell her the truth- you don't know what happened. You tell her you loved her mother and still do and would have stayed with her forever, and you thought she felt the same. But sometimes one person grows apart from the other for reasons we don't understand, and when it happens you have no choice but to let them go. You say it without anger, hatred or malice. She will understand. How do I know this, because I had this exact conversation with my kids and they understood. One of my D's said "well you were together for 25 years and that is pretty amazing, and you did an awesome job of raising us." She's very wise.


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Originally Posted by Miler
Note for LBS spouses that seems to be working for me:

1) detach (better called self-differentiation). I think it's a domesticated belief that it's not safe or healthy for spouses to have freedom. B.S. It's super healthy and seems to be working for me. Each of us can be who we are and do what makes us happy without needing the other person or worrying about what the other person thinks. Not detaching is a subconscious form of control...let it go.

2) Use the gift of time...never force it. I think you always need to examine your behavior and thoughts...why are you doing something??? Is it really to control S or you want things to happen quicker? Pain and anxiety usually makes this worse. Learn some techniques to reduce pain and anxiety. Giving some statement of gratitude always helped me. I am grateful for healthy and bright children, I'm grateful that my parents are still alive, I'm grateful that I have a job I am happy with, etc. I also have a journal that I look at every day...It give me words of affirmation, it lists Sandi' rules, and tips from this forum.

3) READ, READ, and READ more...there are tons of self-help book that can help with 180s. I read all I can on LLs, how to communicate, how to have healthy relationships, etc.

4) Mirror your spouses behavior when it comes from the relationship. When spouse starts initiating conversations more, you start initiating some conversation IN PROPORTION. When spouse starts touching in affection, you start touching in affection IN PROPORTION. When spouse starts giving you a kiss, you start initiating a small kiss IN PROPORTION.

That's all for now. Honestly, it feels like we are reconciling, but just without the physical intimacy and affection. Patience...right wink.


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Originally Posted by Living
If I could give you one piece of advise it would be to STOP the snooping. Trust me when I say sometimes when you go looking for something, you find it. Then when we find that something we cant emotionally handle it. It crushes us inside. So do yourself a favor and stop snooping on him.

Listen, Im no expert. I still make mistakes with DB and GAL, I think that everyone who is here does. I also believe that even the vets did. This sh@t is hard, so dont beat yourself up. Just take things one day at a time. Be kind to yourself. But again by all means, dont go looking for something that youll wish you didnt find.

The vets are spot on, the only thing you can do is give your H space right now. You cant beg, cry, persuade, influence, or force him to do anything. The only person you have control over is you.

I know its hard, believe me I do, Im currently living it. But guess what Im doing, Im LIVING. Take this time to improve and work on you.

Trust me when I say that these people on this forum know what they are talking about. Ive implemented many of the suggestions and advice Ive been given. It always amazes me how it works like a charm.

Take care of you, take care of your kids, work on improving you, and leave him to his mess.

I hope that helps. Ill be back soon!


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Originally Posted by Wolfman
She calls me to tell me how bad the kids were behaving, which I dont know what Im suppose to do when I am at work.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Classic guy comment. "How am I supposed to fix this when I'm somewhere else." The answer is this- SHE DOESN'T WANT YOU TO FIX IT. Women don't want us to fix all their problems, 99% of the time they are just venting and want someone to LISTEN and VALIDATE. So you say something like "oh wow, that sounds very frustrating, is that how you feel?" She says "yes I'm so frustrated I want to scream!" You say "That does sound very frustrating! I'm sorry you're going through that, but thank you for getting them ready each morning." Later she'll be talking to her friend and say "I don't know what's happened to him, suddenly he's LISTENING to me and COMMUNICATING with me." That's the effect listening and validating has.


Quote
In her ranting and raving she said this is one of the reasons our marriage didnt work, because I dont always take out his clothes. I literally almost laughed on the phone.
Quote
Your response- "I am sorry, I imagine that is a big deal when you're already frustrated over trying to get them ready. I will try and remember to always have the clothes out before I leave." Her point is this- she doesn't feel you were a member of a team with her. Sometimes you got the clothes out, sometimes you didn't. And when you didn't, guess whose responsibility it became? Your wife's. Is that fair to her you think? You might see it as a small thing, but it could very well be an indication of a much larger issue of you constantly choosing when you do and do not perform your marriage responsibilities and leaving her to pick up the slack when you don't. Right?


Quote
Meaning, she talks about how we all drain her and most days she just wants to run away. Well I hate to tell her even in divorce you will still have the kids and now by yourself.
Quote
Once again you are dismissing her feelings. Here's a validation test for you, how SHOULD you respond if she says the above again? Write out the exact quote of what you think you should say to her.



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Originally Posted by Yail
I feel like in this process that I'm going through I'm simultaneously happier than I have ever been and more desperately sad than I have ever been. I just feel like my range of emotions has exploded in both directions.


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Originally Posted by Living
Ive been walking around singing and dancing and just being happy. He doesnt really know how to take it. He keeps telling me that something is different about me and that hes confused. I coyly laugh and say Im not sure what youre talking about. Lol. Bless his heart. I did some other things that I wont share here. But the important thing is that the DB techniques work.

Also some of you vets have talked about how the LBS changes during this process and youre absolutely right. Im learning to control my actions, learning to guard my words. Im still a work in progress but thank God Im not the same woman that logged on here for the first time months ago. Ive grown and hes right something is different about me. Im LIVING!

Im not sure whats going to happen with us. However, what I can say is that whatever happens, Im going to be just fine! Ive been doing the necessary work on me. Ive completed my 180s and Ive been consistent at them. Im so proud of the progress that Ive made.

Im working on me. Im working on being the best version of myself that I can. Im going to show him a woman he would be a fool to walk away from. And if this M comes to an end, Im proud that I will be able to say...I did ALL that I could have done!


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Miler
OK, MC dump here...I left the session with all sorts of emotions...anger, hope, impatience, and anxiety. We didn't say anything on the 15 minute car ride home. Given all of my emotions, I didn't want to come off as pouty, cold, resentful, or anxious. I certainly didn't want to have any more R talk...lit was heavy again today in MC. So, I interacted with the boys for a bit, and said, I think I'm going to head to the coffee shop and get some work done, and then run a couple of errands (I'm going to look a couple of Jui-Jitsu gyms in the area). She looked at me with a little bit of a confused or upset look, then said Ok, and then smiled. She then said she was going to go to yoga today.

Should I have handled that differently? I couldn't be around her with the swirling emotions I had and I didn't want any R talk. I think space after a heavy session like that is good for both of us. Would greatly appreciate any feedback on the session or my pulling away a bit after.
Originally Posted by Steve85
You handled it PERFECTLY!! Remember, one of the big rules of DBing is to do NOTHING rather than the wrong thing. And GAL is PERFECT for this. When you are spinning. When your emotions are out of control. "I am going out." is a perfect redirect. I know for me it was "I am going to make holes with bullets in paper targets." That did two things. It got me away from her with my emotions spinning. And it allowed me to blow off some steam that in and of itself helped me to stop spinning.

Miler you got this! Just be patient. Another big rule in DBing is to be patient. Let the process work.


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Originally Posted by LB55
She said our proposal was to come to the house when she wasnt there and take everything I wanted. I calmly explained that the way the orders were written that I would come to the house, take stock of everything, propose a list for agreement and come back a different day to get those items. It seemed as if she had no idea what was in the orders.


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Originally Posted by Yail
You two are a team. Perhaps a broken team right now, ....but instead of hearing her ....I did not hold up my end of the partnership by giving her wishes the serious consideration it deserved. I should have put myself into a "well, what IF" mentality.


I am taking this completely out of context, but I believe these are wise words for the LBS to hear in regards to the other spouse wanting out of the marriage. It is their wishes. Why stand in the way?

This is the counter intuitive stuff. dropping the rope. agreeing with them. take the pressure off.


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Originally Posted by mikeyb
That's just it though, I'm not trying to block her and I already told her I won't. But the way she is trying to file requires that both of us file together, fill the papers out together and be in complete agreement on everything. Including that the marriage can't be saved. I've already told her I will not participate in the filing so I don't even know why she would try to come to me this way.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Because it probably makes the most sense financially. Look, I know this is tough but you can't bury your head in the sand and hope it goes away, it won't. So face it head on. You've made it clear that you don't want D, she knows it and understands it. But she's proceeding anyway. Please understand the following- YOU CANNOT STOP THE D THROUGH INACTION. Your inaction will only make things more difficult on YOU. You have got to protect yourself, and that means sitting down with her and working out the details of D no matter how painful it is. So do it.

She has to fill out the paperwork and have you served. Then you have a certain amount of time (depending on the state) to review the paperwork and file a response, or to agree to it. You need to read up on this ASAP. You should really talk to a L but it sounds like you can't afford one. D is coming your way and you need to be prepared and understand your rights.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
I suggest you let her have the dog. It's not a child, and co-parenting pets just cause opportunities for more hurt.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I know you feel like you need to "do something" but you don't. DB'ing is more about pulling back and giving her time and space while you work on you. We all come here thinking that we need to do SOMETHING so we want to know what the "right" thing to say or do is. We need control back! But right now her mindset is that you are the reason for every bad thing in her life and removing you is her path to newfound peace, love and prosperity. The only thing you can do to combat that view of hers is to remove yourself from the equation. Don't fight. Don't argue. Don't beg, plead, negotiate. Don't beg her to stay, don't beg her to leave. Don't ask her out. Be scarce when you're both home. When she talks, you listen. You validate no matter how crazy the stuff is coming out of her mouth. Let go of your need to "control" the relationship.


Be careful about passive/aggressive responses to situations. You are correct, the time to address it is while it is happening. And you do that by politely and firmly saying that you will not be disrespected or you will hang up. If she continues then you hang up. Letting her tear you a new one and then going dark on her just looks like a passive/aggressive response. You need to start responding from a position of strength, and establishing boundaries is how you do that.



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Sometimes responses help. Sometimes they don't.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by curtis7
Im not sure we have a starting place to go back to
response "I am not sure either. I just know with absolute certainty that I do not want to be in this sitch again"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I stepped back to observe us and everything started to crystallize


Originally Posted by curtis7
This whole situation thing makes me sad
response "It is very sad."

Originally Posted by curtis7
You have to give yourself time too
"Yes, I think I will take some time to process everything"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I will be happier if you are out of my life
response "I want us both to be happy. Do what you need to make yourself happy."

Originally Posted by curtis7
Kids are resilient
response "some kids are very resilient, ours will have no choice. It is your choice to put them through this SIGNIFICANT stress."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I thought about saying no when you asked me to marry you
response "That must have been a hard decision."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I only said yes because I thought that was what family and friends expected of me
response "family and freinds make things complicated"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Separation is the only way I could possibly think differently about you
response "I think it is best if you move out."

Originally Posted by curtis7
Its time for me to be selfish
response "that is your choice."

Originally Posted by curtis7
Dont touch me
response "I have no intention on touching you"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Im not attracted to you
response "I wouldn't be attracted to me either if I were you."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I dont even like the way you smell
response "Thanks for sharing."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I feel trapped, like youre backing me into a corner
response "I can understand how you feel trapped."

Originally Posted by curtis7
Stop being noble by trying to hold on
resposne "How do you see me doing that?"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I dont have regret over the OM, so I dont care if you heal
response "I understand you feel that way"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Dont trust me!


Originally Posted by curtis7
Its too late, I have no feelings left for you to try and continue
response "Yes, It is too late. I wish we would have tried before it got to this point"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I cant give you what you want
resposne "I am sorry you feel that way."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I dont need you
response "I understand."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I want a divorce
response "I see many solutions to our problems. If D is the only way for you to be happy, I will not stand in you way."

Originally Posted by curtis7
Im going to call a lawyer to discuss my options
response "Perfect"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Ill just have to fake it
response "perfect"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Im not getting any younger and feel like Im missing out on life
response "I understand. hopefully you can live an exciting life"

Originally Posted by curtis7
My mother died young and I dont know how much time I have left
response "I wish she was still alive"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Its not you, Im broken
response "It's OK. We are all broken"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Separation doesnt mean its necessarily over for us
response "When we separate, I believe it is best that we move on and not look back"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I just dont feel it right now, Im wasting time, Im convinced those feelings wont return.
response "I don't think those feeligns will return either. We both have some hard decisions to make."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I promise not to see OM, but will not break off all contact with him
response "That does not work for me."

Originally Posted by curtis7
My skin crawls and anxiety skyrockets around you
response "I understand that. I think it is best if we stop interacting"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I feel nothing for you, Im not angry, Im just indifferent
response "I know."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I dont have any love left for you
response "I understand."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I dont know what to do, Im so confused
response "I know, It is OK to be confused."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I deleted everything associated with OM from my phone
response "thanks for sharing"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I might be a bad person, but I dont intentionally try to hurt people
response "I know"

Originally Posted by curtis7
A smart girl always has a backup plan
response "That is one of the things I admire about you"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I want my freedom, I dont want to have to answer to anyone
response "I understand."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I just want to be single
response "I understand. Being married is a lot of work"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Just let me go
response " response "You are free to do what you want"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I cant see the forest for the trees


Originally Posted by curtis7
Lets not get ahead of ourselves
response "Sounds like a good idea"

Originally Posted by curtis7
Our marriage is only legal and doesnt mean anything
response "I can see why you feel this way. I wish it would have been different"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I am moving out and have no intentions of coming back
response "Perfect. Would you like help packing?"

Originally Posted by curtis7
You didnt treat me right and didnt make me feel loved
response "That must have been hard. I am sorry."

Originally Posted by curtis7
I dont think I ever loved you
response "I believe you. It's OK. I understand"

Originally Posted by curtis7
I know what Im doing is unethical and immoral, but you are the cause
response " I am sorry you feel that way. I don't control your actions."

Originally Posted by curtis7
This is who I really am
response "I know"



"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by ZikZik
Please share if you find it. I have already done so many "full" apologies..
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Gain Forgiveness Pattern-Minimize damage (Make peace with anyone by Lieberman p82)

Apologize (I am sorry...)
depersonalize (place action in larger context)
shift intentions (I was trying...)
solidify commitment to change (take concrete steps to assure no repeats)
restore balance (put energy into relationship)

Example I am very sorry I put a dent in your car. Nothing was going right that day. I didnt want to give it to the valet because I know how much you love your car. So when I parked it myself on the street, thats when it got hit. Ive already called several places and got quotes. Ill take care of it anyway you want. You can either give me the insurance information or I can give you the quotes. I am also going to have them detail the entire car so it will look like new. Thats on me. I feel so badly about this happening.


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Originally Posted by Gekko
W said that S(7) was peppering her with questions about who decided they wanted the D, and W eventually told him that we both decided on D. I was boiling on the inside when W told me this. I told her that is a lie and that it was the one thing I said not to say to the kids. W got angry and said "what was I supposed to say!". I told her months ago that this was going to be a question she had to answer and she should have one ready that did not name me as part of the decision. That she should have kept deflecting or figured something out and not to mislead .S(7).

I said I was going to have to think about what to do about this betrayal of what we discussed, implying I might talk to S about it. W then became livid, finger in my face, saying not to put the kids in the middle and not to try an pit them against her because she would "win", they would take her side because she is their mother. I was stone faced as she went on her tirade. When she stopped to take a breath I asked "are you done?". She finished up by "warning" me not to say anything.

Honestly this particular issue is one of the most perplexing as far as how to handle and what to say/not say to the kids. I want no ownership of the D decision but I recognize the need to do what's best for the kids. Anyone with thoughts on this, I would love some input, THANK YOU!
Originally Posted by Hurt213
I am going to give you some input, that is based on my own experience and growth from my journey. I can not nor will I tell you, what I believe is right for you, but I can tell you, what ended up being right for me - hopefully that will be of use to you - I will try to make my self as clear as possible, however english is not my maternal language, and sometimes, I do mess up what I am intending to portray, hopefully you get what I am trying to say.

So basically, I was through a horrible end my relationship - my ex had just returned to her job from maternal leave, and not 3 months later, she is having a PA with her co-worker, whom she then left her, at the time, S1 and D4 for.

I was filled with resentment (I still have a lot of anger boiled up with the fact that 1: my kids will be broken of sorts from this experience, that is devastating to me, and I hold her accountable, and always will. 2. I am missing out on half of my children childhoods, and that is also devastating).

I came from a place of frustration, resentment, anger and simply being completely unable to see, that my life continues, with or without my ex, and because of that, I told her, and held her to the following for a long time: When we were to tell the kids, then they should know, that this was not a mutual decision. That daddy did not want the family to split up.

As time went by, day by day I just let go of a bit of my old self, and I have surrounded myself with people who love me, activities that make me happy, and I appreciate every minute that I get to spend with my kids, on a level that I haven't really thought about earlier, and I most likely do spend more time with them with 100% focus on them, than I did when I had them 100% of the time.

I am at a place in my life today, where we are telling our kids that mommy and daddy are friends, but we are not going to live together anymore, and that they are going to have not one, but two cool bedrooms now. <-- what changed? I grew, I detached, and I realized, that my kids has absolutely no need to know, that mommy wanted out at the age of 2 and 5. There will come a time, when they are grown up individuals with an evolved kognitive understanding of how relations work here in life. When that time comes, they will be able to grasp the truth, and then, only then will they get to know, what happened when they were little. My ex knows, that this day is coming, and she knows that she will have to own up to it, but not now - for now, my 2 and 5 year old angels just need to focus on what interior they want in their fancy new rooms, what dress D5 wants to wear tomorrow, and S2 just need to drive around on his pushbike - basically, they just need to have the best, stressfree childhood, that I and my ex can provide them with - they didn't ask for this (neither did you - but we are the grown ups, we are the ones who take the beatings, so our kids can live in unknowing bliss and in return, we get to see the stars in their eyes whenever they experience something for the first time, because they are innocent, and for as long as humanly possible, that is my quest to keep them innocent, happy and safe).

I hope that makes sense to you.
(hugs)


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Originally Posted by gzabetas
All I needed was a hug she told me once.
So the next time I went in for a hug I got slapped.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
What you need to understand about WAS's is when they say stuff like that, it's not because they want you to start doing it (they don't). It's because they want to blame you for everything that's ever gone wrong, is going wrong and ever will go wrong. You don't fix that by running up to her for a hug every time you see her. You fix it by leaving her the H alone. Detach. Get out. GAL. Give her time and space. Period! The only exception might be something really unusual, like one of her parents die or she's diagnosed with a terminal illness. At times like that you just do what is right.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
We can argue about how "wrong" a WAW is but the fact of the matter is her PERCEPTION is her REALITY. So even though what she is saying may be outrageous and patently false, it is still how she sees things.

A lot of LBS's struggle with the fact that a lot of this just doesn't make sense. They think if they could just explain things to the WAW then they will help her to see the light and emerge from the fog. The more they try the worse they make their situation though, because they are not dealing with someone who is thinking logically. The WAW is a whirlwind of emotions and raw feelings and you simply cannot beg/plead/negotiate/ rationalize with that. It's very hard for us to even imagine their mindset, but it would be like you losing a loved one and you're in that whirlwind of emotions and grief and you have someone telling you "well yeah but I lost my favorite pair of socks this morning and I don't understand why you don't feel bad for me." Your reaction would be outrage that this person brings their petty little problem to your doorstep when you are completely overwhelmed with grief yourself. Follow what I'm saying? That's her attitude- "I've been hurting so deeply and for so long, and now you want me to turn my life inside out because you've been hurting a few weeks, how dare you."

This is why we constantly push people to listen and validate. She really is hurting, so if you set your own pain aside and you listen, and you validate her feelings instead of constantly hitting her with "poor me I feel worse" then maybe she'll actually start feeling like you care.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Pretty sure we've gone over this before, but again, NOTHING YOU DO RIGHT NOW IS GOING TO BE ANYTHING BUT CRAP TO HER. Read that. Understand it. Burn it into your mind. Her perception of you right now is this: you are lower than dirt to her. She doesn't like you and may even hate you. You are responsible for every bad thing in her life, ever. Heck it's probably your fault that a bully stole her lunch money in the 3rd grade. Right now you are coming here every time you interact with her and basically saying "I'm DB'ing and she's still being mean, why isn't it working?" It isn't working because the results aren't instant. The results take TIME. A lot of it. It rarely has immediate impact.

So what do you do? You give her zero ammo to hate you. You do that by pulling back and leaving her alone, but doing it in a polite, respectful, loving way. Don't be cold and indifferent. You walked in and sat elsewhere and didn't say anything to her until she said hi to you. That's not giving her space, that's being cold and indifferent. Sit next to her, it won't kill you. You are still coparents. Sure if she has some OM there then sit elsewhere. But if she's alone then sit with her. Do you want S and D seeing parents united in support of them or sitting on opposite sides of the room like something out of War of the Roses?


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Originally Posted by LH19
It would be pressure if you sat next her and said "why are you leaving me" or something along those lines.

I treat my ex like a business partner. We will sit together at games and events.The product we are selling is my kids future. We will discuss together everything we need to discuss to ensure the products sells. We may also occasionally discuss the weather and I will even joke with her sometimes. Once in awhile things regarding family members but I will not discuss with her intimate details of my life. Those days are over. Not her business anymore.

It's going to take a long time before you will feel comfortable around her again but it will happen at some point.


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Originally Posted by Jamine
She asked for a hug and I said no.That was really really hard to do, I'm craving physical contact, but she doesn't deserve my comfort.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Well it's your choice but a hug isn't going to be the end of the world. Personally whenever XW asked for a hug I liked to flip the script on her and give her either the side-arm hug or the slap-on-the-back hug like you would do an aunt or uncle or something. Those were the kind of hugs she gave me after BD so turnabout is fair play grin


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Originally Posted by Wolfman
This question is for everyone, its about wearing my wedding ring. I was wearing for the entire time. But when she paid the mediator to get the paperwork going I took it off. It feels so weird and heartbreaking that this is where I am at. Do I put it back on? I guess the question I am asking what are the pros and cons to having it on or off?

Originally Posted by Steve85
You are married. You should wear your ring until you are no longer married.


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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Where I was going with my last post is confidence. Either you are your W's husband or you are not. By your own judgment and standards and beliefs. Everything you do, think, decide, feel, and act, do with confidence, for yourself, your family and your marriage, stop regretting past mistakes and learn from them and move on. I'm starting to realize that Satan wants us trapped in doubting ourselves in fear and that we can can't earn our way back to our self worth.

Don't let your wife determine your self-worth. And don't let your wife determine how you act around her. if she says something or ask you something and you aren't ready to make a decision on then state such. Trying to be confident and decisive in everything you do.


You don't have to reconcile today or tomorrow or at all. take the pressure off and just enjoy one day one moment one hour at a time with no expectations. If possible try to enjoy your wife's company if she's not being rebellious, one minute at a time


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Originally Posted by IHCLACS
If your W wanted those things before this boiling point, keep reminding her that the both of you are in the here and now, you are willing to address those things in the here and now, you are aware of those things in the hear and now, and you are willing to make good and try and change those things in the hear and now. If she responds "too little too late", validate her and say I'm sorry you feel that way" and that you think this is the perfect growing opportunity to learn, grow, and put past differences and resentments aside. Put the ball back in her court, and let her know that you are there if you ever want discuss it or address it in the future. Do all this without bringing up the marriage or the relationship or the status of it. (Think here and now with no pressure of status or proclamation.) That is being present my friend.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
My W's love language is word's of affirmation. When she was wayward, and we were in the throws of our sitch, I would find non-sexual and non-visual compliments to give her. "You always have such keen insight into such things." "I am amazed at how well you handle stressful situations." "Your perspective is always so good when it comes to conflicts between people." I would thank her for some of them. "Thank you for helping me see it with empathy, I wasn't doing that before."


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Originally Posted by RobX

I'm a different person, I wouldn't have been able to do any of the things that I've done this past year (08/09) recently if I hadn't taken back those raisins I call balls out of her purse. LOL! Yes it's funny when it's put like that but the analogy is somewhat accurate, I own "them" again and I'm smiling while I write this.

- I wouldn't have moved back into my home
- I wouldn't have demanded and rec'd equal shared/joint custody of my children
- I stopped allowing her to talk horribly to me anymore, before I would just take it, shrink in my corner and never stand up for myself, now I stop her in her tracks and ask her to leave or hang up (depending if it's in person or on the phone)
- I don't beg or plead for her to come back
- in fact I packed her things and moved her out just last month (seriously I would have never thought I was capable of this)
- when she openly discussed a night of bar hopping with her girlfriends and all the "hot" guys they were hanging out with, I pretty much told her to shut up, that it was extremely disrespectful to talk like that in front of me with other people around as if to mock me and she totally went silent and was embarrassed (with a whisper of "it never bothered you before" coming out of her mouth at which point I replied that it always bothered me that someone who I loved and was supposed to love me could hurt me so easily in person & in public)
- she is the one who initiates hugs and polite conversation now, otherwise I'm quiet and just go about my business if she happens to be visiting the kids if she is in the area
- when I don't pay her any attention, she notices it, I think it actually hurts her, I've seen the reaction in her face and she has mentioned that it seems so easy for me to move on, that this doesn't affect me anymore and truth be told, it is getting easier


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Yes it's your dear old "uncle rob" (the forum prick you love to hate) ;-) and I'm looking for advice....

It's been a while since I shared a bit about my own situation.
I started out on these forums spilling my guts and getting alot of good feedback and then I decided to pay it forward when my personal life started improving to the point where the outcome of my marriage/divorce didn't matter as much to me, I detached from that outcome and enjoyed my life and seriously it has been good, I would dare say that 2009 was one of the best years ever regardless of my current situation.

I kicked my wife out in January 2009 when I couldn't handle the lies & deception anymore, she lives with her parents now. We have 2 children that we share custody of, at first she had dictated when I would see them and then I stood up for myself, did the legal thing and secured my rights as a human being and a parent (note I never mentioned my rights as a man, I have the same rights as a woman, no more, no less).

Even kicking her out, she had been a constant in my life throughout alot of 2009. I found out about an EA/PA she had at the beginning of January 2008 (a year before) which was a couple months after I had rec'd the "bomb" (ILYBINILWY) and all the good bits that go with that WAW script (you all know it, no need to repeat it). We did alot of things together with the children and sometimes separate of them as well, I can say that I have had more sex with my wife during my separation than I have ever had during my entire marriage preceeding the separation - not just any sex, I'm talking the kind of unrestricted XXX butt wild monkey love that I used to only imagine in my dreams. We went on trips together but also have fought like cats & dogs and she continued to do things that would disrespect me and I would continue establish my boundaries which she would try to cross over and I would hold my ground until she backed off & apologized for whatever rude behavior she was displaying.

Great sex is great but after a while I wanted more, not needed but wanted. I got in great shape, took care of myself & my appearance, my personal value skyrocketed, I haven't felt so good about myself in such a long time and really became quite passionate about the topic of being a great person & a great man to all of my friends that were going through similar situations, I became the go to guy, the friends that needed help couldn't get enough of me, the advice I give them is counter-intuitive to anything they think they should be doing and it gave them better results than what they had been doing. I've almost considered setting up a website and writing a book on the stuff that I know that actually produces results.

However after living in limbo for 2 years, I knew that not every situation could be fixed, regardless of my new found education in this area, I wasn't so egotistical to believe I had the magic touch to cure everything. But I had enough personal strength to know that my life was worth it, to start over and make something great with someone new.

At the beginning of November I told my wife that I wouldn't be living in limbo anymore. She either committed 100% wholeheartedly to repairing our relationship and making a great marriage or I would be cutting off contact with her, no more sex, no more going out, no more coming over, I told her she HAD to have the kids 50% of the time (even though we have joint custody, I would usually have them @ 80% of the time due to her part-time job schedule, me living close to the school and being able to work from home, etc) and that this is how life will be going forward. I told her I would put the house up for sale in the spring, pay off our debts, split all of our assets 50/50, file for divorce, get an apartment for the kids & myself for a year or so, and then look for a new home in the same area to allow the kids to keep going to the same school.

Her decision was that she wasn't ready to make that decision, after 2 years of living in limbo, I was. You see it wasn't just about me anymore, I realized that this was a horrible thing that my kids were learning, they were seeing that this is what relationships are about, mom & dad living separately but still being together every now & then, with mom staying for weeks at a time and then being away for weeks at a time and I just wouldn't tolerate that anymore. I made the decision to end living in limbo, I DECIDED that I had enough of this. I DECIDED that I would move on and enjoy my life and whatever it would bring me. I started packing up whatever household items belong to her (she only took the clothes that I packed in her van) and placed them in boxes and request to her to pick them up. I have started cancelling credit cards that have both of our names on them that have $0 debt on them, any mail that comes to the home that is meant for her, I contact the sender and update them with her parents address, I've changed the look of the home to make it our place, in general just moving on.

I started dating in mid to late November, just to get used to it again and it wasn't difficult, I found that I was pretty unique amongst most of the guys on the dating website that I signed up for, for the first time in my life, I was popular with the ladies, I go a ton of first dates, alot of 2nd dates (and 3rd dates), no sex, it's not that I couldn't have sex, I just want to save that part of me for someone I wanted to have a relationship with. I was having quasi-daily sex with my wife for the past 1.5 years without any real emotional connection and I wanted that so I didn't mind holding out (I have also discovered that holding out sex from women that want to have sex with you pretty much makes them extremely "hungry", I'm in my late 30's and I have been dating women in ages ranging from 25 to 40).

FYI - Throughout all of this I've been an uber responsible parent, my personal life (ie. dating) isn't part of my children's reality, I keep it separate from them and I only date on those days that I don't have my kids and I never bring my dates home with me. I've kicked up my parenting ability another notch and the bar was already pretty high and the kids and I have been living a great life for the past year, they are young and now more than ever, they want the security of a strong family/parent(s) and it's my job to give that to them. I've discussed the separation & divorce with them, told my wife what we were discussing, offered her to come & discuss this with me because they want to talk to her about it all the time and she refuses to do that. My children ultimately want their family to be together but they are learning and I've been loving & nurturing with them, I always reassure them that we will be ok and we will. I am always happy with them, we have a ton of fun together and I'm showing them that I'm happy, because I want them to learn how to be happy as well.

Well enough of that hoopla, seriously I could go on & on with the story and it's details but I will fast forward to yesterday and today.

My wife came over yesterday to drop off the kids for the week, I have the kids on the 24th and she will have them on the 25th, this is something we both decided on together. I told the kids to say bye to their mom, to give her hugs & kisses before she goes but she decided to stay and asked me if she could talk to me for a bit. She wanted to talk to me in what was our bedroom, she closed the door behind her, I was just standing in front of her and she started crying. She misses me, she loves me, she wants to come back, she is sorry for everything she has done, she knows she caused the bulk of the problems, she wasn't "well" (referring to some depression she was dealing with and still is), asks me if I still love her. Honestly I just stood in front of her without too much emotion and asked her how could she do this before christmas, I told her this was all just feelings spurred on by christmas and that they will pass, she has always been like this in the past and then she flip flops back & forth to "I didn't mean it, I don't know why I said this, etc." I told her that I felt bad that she was sad and feeling like this but it wasn't being fair to me to put on this display before christmas, told her I was moving on and that I'm ok with how everything is going because life is good and it's going in the direction that I want it to go in. She got angry, raised her voice, said some hurtful things, left the home, slammed the storm door, etc.

She came over today, wash rinse repeat, same behavior as yesterday, same thing, the crying, tears, I love you, I'm sorry, I never meant to hurt you, etc. I mentioned to her why she refused to reconciling a couple of months ago when I told her that I was done waiting and she said because she was stupid and didn't know what she wanted, etc. I told her that plain & simple, the person that I'm with will know what they have when they're with me and won't take it for granted and that she's been taking me for granted forever and I couldn't tolerate her EA/PA when it happened along with multiple other repeat behaviors over the past 2 years - I wasn't her doormat and I wouldn't just let come back into my life so easily, I would be stupid if I allowed that and I'm not that person anymore. She cried some more, professed her love to me, asked to hug me and hold me and I did feel bad for her but I reminded her that I told her that this day would come and when it did it would be too late for her. I also told her that I was tired of her lying to me, constantly deceiving, hiding things, and I could never tolerate that in my life. I even told her to spill the beans on the guys that I know that she had affairs with and she still couldn't spill the beans, she had to hold on to those lies, telling me it wasn't as bad as I assumed it was (how bad does it have to be?!) and she told me that even if she told me the details, how would she know for certain I would take her back - my reply was pretty much "Well you know for certain that I'm not taking back someone who is dishonest & lying to my face, you have my 100% guarantee on that", the conversation continued for a bit like this and I told her that she was just repeating the same thing over & over again and lying to me was just her attempt to control me and my reactions to what she had done and I wouldn't put up with that anymore. She mentioned "marriage counselling" and I told her that it's only good when people are honest about what they've done and then I asked her to leave because I was busy and needed to get back to work. She told me she loved me several more time, asked to hug me again and left in tears, I did feel bad for her but I wasn't going to let real or crocodile tears give her the "Get out of Jail" card for free.

Without honesty there is nothing and my life is too good right now to go back into a relationship/marriage that is filled with lies. She has since called me more than a dozen times today apologizing for calling too many times and then repeating the same conversations and she has been texting me/emailing me constantly - I don't want to say it's scary but its certainly getting uncomfortable.

Feedback, comments, suggestions.
(saying that this post is too long to read is cool too, I can take it)

If you ask me if I love her, I'll tell you I do.

But I can't allow lies & dishonesty back in my life, after purging that filth from my life I can pretty much guarantee you and anyone else that I won't live with that anymore and I don't want to be anyone that doesn't value me or the relationship they have with me.

I've added my personal touch to a few of your threads, now I'm looking for some feedback on my own situation. If you have some 2x4's to throw my way please do so if you think I've acted in error. Seriously though, I've never been this confident in my life, I never backed down during any of this, even when the conversations took some tangents and she started getting rude & angry, I held my position without being an a$$hole and I could tell she knew that.

p.s. It's taken me over an hour to write this post in between the constant texting & phone calls she's been sending my way.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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R2C,

In my own situation, if I were to have a reconciliation, then I'd have two huge looming issues. First, I'm a different person now; I wouldn't put up with any nonsense from my XW, and zero tolerance doesn't make for a good relationship. Second, I highly suspect round two would have the same ending as the first go-round. For me, once is enough.

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The whole post is a good read. This part stands out:
Originally Posted by robx
Pursuing, gift buying, passive, non-argumentive, clingy, needy, nice guy tendencies didn't work and honestly they never will for anyone. I personally went from being needy, weak and wussy man like to being an ultra hard a$$ before I found my happy medium, I had to go from one extreme to another before I found where I needed to be for me. My wife respects me now where as before she didn't, the respect was established because I finally understood that respect is a requirement above all else, there can be no love between spouses unless respect is in place. An understanding of attraction between men & women is also important, taking responsibility for my actions and my wife taking responsibility for her actions was also key in our current progress.


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Thanks for robx's reposts Ready2Change.

I have read them multiple times to get a glimpse of what is possible.


B.D in December 2018
Physical Affairs discovered in April 2019
Divorced May 2019
H (me) 49
W (her) 29
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Originally Posted by gzabetas
Thanks for robx's reposts Ready2Change.

I have read them multiple times to get a glimpse of what is possible.


Read as many post from PuppyDogTails, Coach, RobX, AllenA as you can. They knew this stuff inside and out. RobX always gave great advise. Yesterday I dug into his threads to see how his sitch started and ended.


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Originally Posted by Wolfman
Here she goes again:
And really? Again you dont acknowledge my text??
Why you feel the need to make this so much worse than it already is? You apologize and apologiZe but then I try to make things civil and get along and I get nothing back! Is that how you want it?
Then she tried to call me twice and I did t answer then I got this text:
It really is so sad this is bringing me back to all the times you didnt answer me... horrible feeling.

I havent responded yet.
I hope you all are right, because right now it doesnt feel right to me.

Now she wants me to call her.

Originally Posted by LH19
"Yes W that is how I want it moving forward. I need time and space to heal and move on. Please only contact me in regards to the children or finances. "

Shes trying to manipulate you.


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Originally Posted by smartcookie
Some people think that a WAW is hard, angry, cold. In a fog. There's more to her than that.

4 years ago, a woman laid in bed at night, not wanting to wake up in the morning. There was no way out. She couldn't divorce him. He would have visitation without her there to protect them. He had never hit them, but he surely didn't understand how to care for them. He didn't even know who they were.

She couldn't leave. She had no job, no way of putting food on the table for the children she loved. She had been dependent for so long, & she trusted this man to provide for her. Now she lay in bed, wondering who he was, & how she got her. These were not the choices she would have made, if she had a 2nd chance.

She couldn't talk to him. He couldn't hear her. She desperately wanted to share herself with him. He had walls up. She couldn't penetrate them. He seemed so content to work, watch TV, eat & sleep. Why didn't he want more, like she ?

She felt trapped. She resented herself for letting him treat her this way for so long. He told her often enough, he was a good husband. She needed so much more from him. She tried telling him, for years she tried, then she cried, she begged, she pleaded, but he couldn't hear.

He was cold, hard, in a fog.

She tried everything, she read every book. She prayed her heart out. She tried to be more Christ-like. Figuring if she set the example, he would follow.

She knew it came down to two choices. Her children's happiness, or hers. She would sacrifice hers. She decided to stay, & raise the children, with this man who would never know her. When they moved out, so would she. Then she would salvage what was left of her.

She put her heart in a dusty old box in the top of the closet. It was easier. She didn't hurt anymore, she was numb.

When she finally quit trying, & tried to fill her hours with distractions, he noticed. His fog was lifting. He wasn't quite so cold, so hard. She didn't care. It was too late. She was numb. Her heart was in that box. She vowed never to take it out again.

She stumbled through her days, crossing them off in the calendar. Wondering how much longer she could live this way. Did her children see her unhappiness ? She wondered, are they better off with a single happy parent, or with two parents who co-exist ? The torment was eating her alive. What to do ?

By now, she wasn't sleeping. Wasn't eating. She pulled away from all of her friends. She was dying inside. She desperately wanted, needed to be loved, appreciated, noticed, cherished. She was a beautiful fragile flower slowly dying without water, sunshine & air.

When no one was watching, she cried. She cried til she ran out of tears. She wanted it to be over, she wanted the pain to stop. Everytime she looked at her husband, it reminded her of the pain. The pain that was consuming her. She turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Anything to make the pain go away. Her friends ask her why she's losing so much weight. She wonders, why can't anyone see that I'm dying here. She doesn't try to tell the man she shares a bed with, remember, he can't hear her.

She finally writes him a letter. She says she is done. They need to raise their children, & he's the only one who can be their dad. Now he's fully awake & out of his fog. He's scared. He had no idea how bad she hurt. He thought things were good. He's been living in a separate reality from her.

He says he'll change, he'll do anything, to make her happy. He says his family is the most important thing to him. She doesn't believe him. She's numb. Her heart is safely in that box. He tries, she watches. He tries some more, she watches. He's dying now. She's numb. Now he wants the pain to stop. She's numb. She wonders why did things have to go this far before he would hear me ? Now she doesn't want to talk to him. She's numb. Talking to him reminds her how much she used to hurt, she can see it in his eyes now. Her survival instincts kick in, at least she doesn't hurt now. She's numb.

The only place to go from numb is anger. He tries some more, she can see he's making changes. Now comes the buried anger. The anger that she wanted to express to him for all the years past. The anger she was afraid to show. He doesn't realize, angry is better than numb. He takes her anger. For 12 months he takes her anger. Sometimes he fights back, & when he does she goes numb again.

She's so scared to take her heart out of that dusty box. Numb is so much safer. Angry is so much safer. Does he know how hard it is for her. She knew the day that her children were born, that she would give her life for them. She just didn't know it would be like this.

Sometimes he tries to push her to heal faster. She's doing her best. He wants more from her at times. She's doing her best.

Some nights, the pain returns, & she remembers, & she just can't sleep. She's not numb anymore, and the anger is going away. She doesn't know how or where, but it is. She's so scared. Numb is safer. Angry is safer. If she gives in to her fear, to her sometimes overwhelming fear, everyone will call her a WAW. She wanted you to know.
_________________________


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Originally Posted by gzabetas
What is really sinking in with these WW, WAW, MLC, whatever you wish to call them is the audacity of their actions.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
If you've ever read posts on other forums by WAW's, it really helps you to realize there are two sides to every story. A lot of women will talk about how absent their H was from the marriage. When we court women we spend a LOT of time with them. If we're not at work then we're with them, or talking to them on the phone, or texting them. They get our undivided attention. We nurture them, support them, fulfill them emotionally, talk about hopes and dreams and the future. Eventually we get married and that's when most men get lazy. She's "in the bag" so there's no longer a need to focus so much attention on her. So we get wrapped up in work, hobbies, kid stuff. We forget her birthday or the anniversary. We barely talk to them. We complain to them instead of talking about hopes and dreams. And we think it's no big deal because "she's my wife, she understands."

Here's the thing, men don't need all that emotional support nonsense, right? Just sex now and then gets the job done. BUT WOMEN DO NEED IT. They need it a LOT, and if they don't get it from us then they WILL eventually seek it out elsewhere. But before that they will start dropping hints. They would tell us, but most of us are so quick to anger that they are afraid to. So they hint instead. We don't take hints very well, we need 2x4's. But they're scared to do that. So they hint and hint and hint and nothing changes. Then they decide to give up and plan their escape. THAT's when we finally get the 2x4 called BD. But by then it's too late to fix all the wrongs that led to their decision.

I hear a lot of language like yours here- "audacity". How dare she do this, destroy the marriage, destroy the family. How can she be such an evil monster. But most WAS's would use the exact same language about their LBS. How dare they mislead me like this, first focus all their energy on me until we get married and then all but abandon me.

Her "truth" is very real and honest and accurate to her just as yours is to you. But here's the trick, you have to set your version aside and try to understand HER truth. If you can be honest with yourself about what YOU did to lead her to this point, THEN you can go on your path of growth.


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Originally Posted by neffer
If youre depressed, youre living in the past.
If youre anxious, youre living in the future.
If youre content, youre living in the present.

Live the present, face reality. Cool, calm, collected.
Time and patience are key factors.


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Originally Posted by joejoe1
You are still putting your happiness and well being on your W being in your life. ....What you truly want is the pain to go away. Trust me, your W coming back won't stop the pain.

When you have grace and joy, no person can steal that from you. Find peace, I know it's hard. Also, most of us on here had to fake it to get to a place of acceptance.

Take it from me, even if your W comes around, it won't change to fact you need to heal. I'm working with these issues now, insecurities, comparisons, hyper worrying. They are going away the more I learn to love myself. It's nothing my wife can do to help me process or make those things better. Having confidence in myself and knowing that I cant control another person does. No matter what the outcome of my M, I will be fine. I now know that. Will there be pain, yes. But I will make it thru whatever obstacles are in my way.

Just because you have a good day, don't erase the pains of the past. Being Consistent and time does. She must see, those type of days and a confident Wolf.

I had a preacher tell me that my W had a rollerdex of pictures of me in her mind, and they were all bad, my job now is to overwrite all those old pictures/slash memories with better pictures. That way when she thinks of me, if there enough good photos/memories the old ones won't come up first. Getting all those old memories overwritten takes time.

Takes yesterday as a good memory stored and old bad memory overwritten. One day at a time.


Onward and forward



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Originally Posted by LH19
I think your guys number one problem is expectations. If you want to go then go. Just don't have any expectations that it will change anything. If you don't want to go then let them know why you don't want to go. Say something like "W we are not a family anymore. I need time to heal and move on and spending time with your family will delay/prevent this process right now. Make it clear that this is how you feel right now.

You guys also have to remember that your Ws are likely 2-3 years ahead of you in this process. They have mourned the end of the marriage but may not want to completely cut you out of their lives. You may also feel the same 2-3 years down the road. That is why they are ok being friends.


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Originally Posted by LB55
Words are just that; words. Ignore them.

Actions will show you if she wants to work on it.

In the meantime, work on yourself, read Divorce Remedy, take good notes. Remember, there are lots of issues that contributed to this on both sides. You can work on yours. You wont fix all of them, and you certainly wont fix them in a day or two.

How does one eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Gonnatake some time to eat that proverbial elephant. One problem at a time. Work on yourself. You can do it!


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Your H wants to keep you on as Plan B. Who knows what his Plan A is, maybe there's an OW that he's keeping secret, or maybe one he's talking to that keeps telling him to leave his W and then maybe she'll take him, or maybe just a fantasy OW. But regardless, you are NOT his Plan A right now. But, he wants to keep you on in case Plan A falls through. You're his backup plan. Here's the problem with this, if you start playing into his hands and eating up all the crumbs he throws you will ALWAYS be Plan B. There will be OW2 and 3 and 4 etc. etc. all while you sit on the back burner. You'll be good when he wants some family time or maybe a quickie but not as a real W. So what do you do, well you do what you are already doing- you make it clear to him that you are NOT Plan B. You have too much self-worth to be his pathetic backup plan. You DESERVE to be Plan A whether it's with him or someone else. If you hold your head high, leave him to his mess and get out and GAL then he WILL notice and he will start to realize what he's leaving behind is far better than whatever he thinks he's pursuing.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Please start a new thread and link both of them together. Thanks!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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