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The forums on Divorce Busting are filled with so much great information. As I read through the posts, I like to grab the nuggets of gold and share. I like to go back and reread the posts to refresh my memory as well.

Previous quote threads:
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Recap of My Last Thread (Book List)


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Great post. Here are some highlights:

Originally Posted by sandi2
She will probably never tell you, so I will. She wants her H to be emotionally/mentally stronger than her.

Another thing she won't tell you is that she will test him throughout their relationship to see if he is stronger. If she sees weakness, she will resent it, and at the same time feel that she must step up b/c her H is too weak. In the process, she loses respect. Usually, this comes in small doses and happens over a period of time.

The problem with a soft hearted, tender natured guy is that she is going to take his b@lls away. If he has NGS, he will tell himself that he just needs to do more to make her happy...Ö...only, he does the wrong things. He dives into the housework, does everything with the kids (feed, bathe, dress, homework, take to school, etc.) She may sound like she's never satisfied with the amount he does...Ö.and that is partly true.

She's not satisfied b/c he doesn't reclaim his b@lls and act like the man she desires.... She may not know how to tell you that she needs you to grow a pair and take the role of the man.

Women are attracted to men with ambition. They are attracted to successful men. In our world, success usually equals financial security. Financial security is very attractive to women, b/c one of our basic needs is security. If we have a H, we are going to look to him to bring it. It's our nature. Even if we work, we still expect him to work, too.

Another thing that attracts women in men is power (in a good way, not evil way). Successful career men usually indicate that they have a certain amount of power......which draws a certain amount of respect. A wife wants her H to be respected in their community.

No matter how successful he becomes, she will always need him to fill her intimate/emotional needs. She will always need him to act like a man, first, in order to respect him as her H. If I had to say which is more important to a woman.....her H having a job or him helping at home, I'd choose the job. ...He has to know how to balance his work and his time/energy with his family. In a MR, he has to tend to W's emotional needs, b/c no high career is going to take care of "everything". Know what I mean?




"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Rose888
Pursuing is not the same as not ignoring.

Ignoring means someone is trying to get your attention and you don't notice or you act like you don't notice.

Pursuing is chasing after. Trying to get someone's attention.

Pursuing when someone doesn't want you won't make up for ignoring them when they did want you.

If you want to 180 pursuing, then learn how to validate what she says when she initiates contact.

As for GAL, yes, in the beginning it won't be very much fun. You'll be there and all you will think about is your marital situation. This is why activities that are new and different and require you to learn and focus are great choices. It gives your mind something it has to focus on, so that leaves less mental space for thinking about your situation. Keep GALing anyway. It will get better.


M(52), W(53),D(17)
M-20, T-23 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
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Originally Posted by RyanHun
....The mens group is turning out to be the best thing I have ever done for myself. A great group of individuals just getting together to hear about what is happening in one an other's lives and supporting each other. I always feel so refreshed after attending and for any of the other men on here that don't have a group of supportive men in their lives I highly recommend it.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Good example of why we recommend protecting yourself, controlling your emotions and documenting everything:

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Originally Posted by equalzr
.So i just found out my WW filed some sort of order that asks for primary custody. Not only that she wants child support...nevermind the fact she makes more than double my salary... The KICKER? She claims she is afraid for her safety. Yep, she went there folks. My mind is blown.

I have never once given her any reason to fear for her safety. As a matter of fact, she got in my face pointing her finger in my face and said "im not afraid of you". This was a month or two ago, and i still remained calm. Shes been trying to bait me, and since im not biting, shes just making s*it up now....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by harvey
I wrote myself a manifesto. I refer to it every day.

This season of my life has been tough. Use the pain to become a better man, a better father, and a better Christian. Control what I can control to become that better man every day for the rest of my life.

FAITH. Strengthen my relationship with God. Draw closer to Him. Continue to read the Bible and other Christian resources. Continue with fellowship at work. Regularly attend church. Regularly go on missions trips. (Goal: Join a serving Life Group.)

KINDNESS. Continue to volunteer a lot. Continue random acts of kindness. Always be humble and kind. (Goal: Be kinder when I'm driving.)

FORGIVENESS. Do not be mad at W. She just wants to be happy. I am the one who largely failed her. Forgive her and seek to become her friend.

ATTRACTIVENESS. Always dress nice. Always look nice. Get my swagger back. Get back to being an alpha male. Be confident, upbeat, relaxed, and fun.

RELATIONSHIPS. I avoided the big mistakes in my marriage (abuse, cheating, work/life balance, being a bad parent, etc.), but I made a lot of little mistakes. Identify and improve on the little things I could have done better.

Connectedness. Always treat her as my best friend. Enjoy and appreciate time spent together. Do little and big surprises. Date nights.

Communication. Listen to her, actually hear what she is saying. Learn her love language. Study her. Learn what makes her tick, what her concerns are. Use resources like The Love Dare, Divorce Remedy, etc. to better myself.

Attitude. Don't overreact to nagging. Nagging shows she is still invested in the relationship. Be positive, patient, and forgiving.

FATHERHOOD. Continue to be fully invested in my relationship with my daughters. Continue to use resources to better myself as a father.

LIFESTYLE. Continue to exercise (walking, push-ups, sit-ups, planks, squats) and diet. (Goal: Stay below 165 pounds.) Get eight hours of sleep. Continue to quit chewing. Continue to re-engage with family and friends. Grow my circle of Christian friends.

BE MYSELF. Get back to doing things that I like: Golfing, Outdoors (camping, fishing, hunting), Traveling. (Goal: Visit all 50 states.) (Goal: Visit all 6 habitable continents.)

GROW. Try new things. Become handier around the house. (Goal: Become a better cook.) Go on more mission's trips. Maybe try sky diving.

GOALS
Join a serving Life Group.
Be kinder when I'm driving.
Stay below 165 pounds.
Visit all 50 states.
Visit all 6 habitable continents.
Become a better cook.

MOTTO
God has great plans for me. I will survive. I am lovable. I deserve to be loved.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by RR17
Much of the efforts we do in DB is to remove pressure and increase attraction. Without attraction, we surrender any opportunity for R. Not to mention it is the only thing we have any control over. Sometimes I think we forget that attraction is much more than our looks. As mostly males here, we see attraction as a visual concept. For Ws it is very different.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by artista
.. i am a former Wayward Wife who is piecing with my H, and we have been piecing a bit over 3 years after a very long physical separation... my advice to you is the same advice i give to any and all LBS... SERIOUSLY detach and GAL... by seriously, i mean you do it wholeheartedly... by wholeheartedly, i mean--no starts and stops and no doing it according to your H behavior... you do it with everything in you--for YOU... i believe this will give you the best chance to save your M...

most LBS cannot do it... it is very difficult... i see that most LBS eventually get around to doing it, but not until it's a bit too late... at that point, they are basically saving themselves... if you can do this in the early stages, i believe your chances of saving your M are greater... and if you do it without regard to how your H reacts--because he will likely react, will not like it, will try to guilt you--you will have a greater chance of him coming back... it will feel very wrong, like you are making things worse--but he has to come to a place where he sees he has lost you... you cannot fake it... you cannot do it until he starts to show signs of coming back, because he will back off just as soon as you think things are good again... and you will go through the cycle again and again--and that lessens the effect of detaching and GAL... he will come to see that it's all a game just to get him back... and you will weaken with each cycle...

--artista


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Steve85
I realize that I am not out of the woods and need to continue my personal growth journey....I think some things I have going for me is:

- Recognizing my NGS and working on it
- Doing the right things this time (continuing MC (and we will) etc)
- Making my changes permanent
- Continuing to focusing on controlling me, not trying to control her
- Learning about an applying self-differentiation in marriage
- Continuing to recognize my own toxic behavior and 180 on it

So on the first one, while not full blown NGS I definitely had parts of it. And it did a lot to contribute to my sitch.

On the 2nd, after her EA in 2005 I made a lot of changes. Temporarily, but then after a while I allowed myself to slip back on those changes. Mainly because all of my changes had the wrong goal. (Listen up guys, this is applicable to ALL sitches!) My goal was to save my marriage. Once that occurred I gave up the 180s I made to achieve that. I essentially set myself up for another sitch, and the fact that it took 12 years really was a tribute to my W trying to hang on (and employee multiple techniques to try to fix things), but I wasn't doing my part.

So that is why point #3 is so important. None of us are guaranteed having our spouse stay with us no matter what, but as cliche as it sounds, the key to having a better marriage is being a better spouse. And that is something we all need to keep in mind.

And the big part of that is the point about controlling what I can control. Me! Focus on me, my actions, my words, my activities, my priorities. And doing what I can do!

And the self-differentiation piece is not trivial. The more I learned about proper detachment the more I realized that self-differentiation (essentially a healthy state of constant detachment) was of the utmost importance to a healthy relationship. The more research I've done the more I've realized that connection, but not codependency, is what makes for a healthy marriage. The fact that two people can be together, enjoy one another's company, and have a connection unlike a connection with anyone else, but still have a life outside of that relationship (essentially GAL!). Codependency might allow for one or both of those, but requires causes us to be too dependent on whatever we think we are getting from the other person.

...

Be the best spouse I can be. Love her the best way I can. Make her wants and needs a priority (note, not the ONLY priority because I know I have to look after my wants and needs as well). And I need to do this list to be the best person I can be and become, not to save my marriage. If it does that, then great. But the goal here is to be the best H, father, citizen, person, church member, employee that I can be. And let the things I can't control fall into place.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Steve85
First, if you think she is asking a leading question (like the one about your sister) the DBing rule is to deflect it. "That is a good question, but I haven't really considered how I feel about that. I will have to think about it and get back to you later."

When she does just flat out start talking about something, remember validations techniques. "Hmmm, that is interesting, how did that make you feel?" "I can understand why you'd feel that way."

I would continue to not be the initiator of discussions. Remember you are the lighthouse, she comes to you. When she does you are pleasant, upbeat, present. Answer her questions in as few words as possible. And validate anything she says.


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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
... The emotional connection...this is CRITICAL for me...that emotional connection is so important to me. Good conversations, physical affection, expressions of appreciation, compliments, etc... indicators that my H was interested in and felt an attraction towards me. These were rare and it took its toll.....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Steve85
Work on detaching.....whether he says he loves you and wants to be with you forever, or says he was the D finalized yesterday, you need to be steady and sure. Not excited by the first one, not devastated by the second. I see you are doing GAL activities, but notice how he temp checks you while you are? "What are you doing?" IGNORE THAT. It is none of his freaking business!! He is firing you as his W, yet then wants to track you like a H would track a W. DO NOT LET HIM DO THAT. Decisions have consequences, make him feel those consequences.

If you feel you have to respond then how about "NOYB". Personally I think you should just ignore it. Later when he says "You didn't answer my text." You can say "Sorry, I was busy."

Remember this rule on texting: Texts that are not questions: DO NOT RESPOND. Texts that are questions, answer on your own time (IE not right away), and then in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.

STOP BEING AT HIS BECKON CALL.


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Originally Posted by RyanHun
At first I was trying the same tactic you employed, lately I am doing the opposite. Now I simply go out and do my thing with the kids. We have a great time together, i make it as fun as possible for them, I show them extra love and at the end of the night they don't seem to pay much attention to mom's absence. I think long term this will have a two fold effect. One that is immediately apparent is my relationship with the kids is better then ever and overall myself and the kids are happier. The second that may or may not come down the road is this will help WAW see what she has truly walked away from and what she is missing out on. I was trying to shield my kids from all of this and I'm not sure that was the best move, I feel it was fake. They obviously don't need to know the details of what is going on, they need to figure some of that out on their own. But they don't need to be shielded from reality. The reality of the situation is that the kids family for now has broken up. Their mom is not around like she should be but it is not my job to make W realize that or ensure it happens. The loving mother they once knew who was always there for them doesn't exist right now. That is a really hard truth to accept and is incredibly sad but at the end of the day it is reality.

Kids should have two loving parents in their lives to guide them through life, especially early on. The sitch is not ideal but I have become comfortable with the fact that I will single handedly be the one to pick up the slack from W's absence and do the best I can on my own. I know what I am capable of and I know that my kids will also come out of this mess with a lot of life lessons and be stronger individuals because of the loving father that is currently doing everything he can to be there for them.


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Everything is counter-intuitive.

This should be the first change to your belief system:
Originally Posted by Steve85
Remember, D is not the end of the world. Many couples D, but end up back together. Just keep DBing. Whether he comes back, files, or even if the D goes all the way through to finalization, KEEP DBing!

Remember, HE doesn't DESERVE YOU! He should be begging you to take him back. He should be hoping YOU don't file for D.

Flip the script. The worst thing you could do right now is to let him back too easily.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
"If she has sex with me she must love me."

I am guessing you haven't read too many relationship books, or done much research on male-female relationships. Women know within the first minute of meeting a man whether or not she'd ever be willing to have sex with him. Are you going to argue that a woman falls in love with a man in the first minute of having met him? I do not think so.

Woman equate love to other things. Is he kind and gentle with me? Does he take care of me? Does he do things for me?

You should read 5 Love Languages. Almost every guy has Physical Touch as either his primary or secondary love language.

Women typically have the other 4 above physical touch. Their LL is typically words of affirmation, or acts of service, or quality time or receiving gifts.

Look up the 5 love languages, and you can take the test.

Most women only fall in love with men they respect. Respect breeds attraction which breeds love for most women. Do you think she respects you right now?


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Originally Posted by Jim1234
Steve, I'm curious. How did you get her to own up to her part in the failure of your marriage?

Originally Posted by Steve85
Jim, this is a good question. And one that, unfortunately in my case, doesn't have a good answer. Also, I am not sure it is a question that should be asked (I'll explain).

My best answer is that it was through DBing. When I started DBing (let her go to get her back, 180ing on bad behavior, GAL, and detaching) I think she started to take stock of what she was doing and how it would affect her life, and our D's life. It would have been easy for her to continue to feel justified in her decided course of action if I continued my boorish behavior and made no changes post BD. It was very gradual, over time that she started to wake up to the fact that our MR could be rebooted, and we could both be happy together.

As with most, she was leery of my changes at first. She'd seen that movie before, and as most WAWs, she wasn't sure if they were real and lasting and permanent. So for the first 2 months I don't think she was ready to own her own behavior (SSM, checking out housekeeping-wise, no longer trying herself in he MR).

A couple of key things:

First, MC. I think MC was where she saw me really taking ownership of my problems in the marriage. Until then she saw it as me "trying to convince her of my changes". But when I didn't excuse or deny my own shortcomings to an unbiased third party I think she started to trust that I really got my part in all that had happened.

Second, when I told her fairly early on in the MR that I had spoken to a lawyer, I think this surprised her. When she asked a few questions I said that if it came to it, I would be filing for D for adultery. (The jury was still out on that really, since it was never a PA and only an EA.) But this was the first time I saw her kind of realize that her actions were not justified. That turning the energy of the marriage outside of the marriage wasn't the way to try to fix things.

Since R I have seen a lot of 180s from her. She is back to making family dinners for all of us. Her housekeeping has been much better and she is making it a priority. We've been intimate regularly. So while there was never a moment where she said "Hey I realize what my part in the breakdown was." Her actions are speaking louder than her words. Words are just words, so I wouldn't put a lot into what she says. Even if she said "I realize my part in all of this" if her actions don't match that it doesn't mean anything.

The reason I say you shouldn't really ask that is because my fear is you are looking for a magic bullet that would bring about an AHA moment to your W. If that is what you are looking for then you will be disappointed because those types of things don't happen very often in sitches like ours. There isn't a lot you can do or say that bring about that kind of realization. In fact I think pointing it out will cause most WASs to deny, justify, avoid, etc. In other words it will have a negative impact on your sitch. Further, if you are looking for an AHA moment from her I think you will be disappointed. While I believe the majority WASs know deep down that what they are doing is wrong, human-beings have an unbelievable ability to do what I just said above: deny, justify, avoid, etc. Plus this is enhanced by certain personality types and flaws.

Hang in there Jim. Deep down she probably knows her own part. If you continue to DB, especially being consistent in your own 180'd behavior, she'll eventually come around, I believe.


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Originally Posted by FlySolo
This journey, as hard as it may be, is also about taking a long hard look in the mirror and seeing our parts in the S. Until we can see ourselves for what we are and take responsibility for the our part, then we cannot forgive ourselves or our S. Yes, her actions are extreme, but try and understand what led to them. Understanding is part of forgiving. If you can't forgive then there is no hope of moving forward in your own growth.


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Originally Posted by pain18
I now am in full detach mode and it's getting noticed. And I'm caring less and less. When I have an inkling of a positive thought about my W, my mind immediately goes to "She cheated on you and is dating another man while legally married to you, continually disrespects you, and cake eats. She doesn't deserve squat right now". That mindset has been helping me detach more.



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Originally Posted by pain18
Here I am. Officially now 100 days into a process acknowledged as Divorce Busting, but is so much more. It's about facing my past and addressing the issues that contributed to the situation I got myself into. In the last 100 days, I have learned about and are addressing the following:

- FOO (Family of Origin) issues. Confronting my parents about the way I was raised and told them about their contribution towards this. Since confronting them, I have been able to talk to them like an adult and not like a scared little boy afraid of making my parents mad and getting a beatdown for saying the wrong thing. I am not afraid of their reactions anymore.

- NGS/Finding my balls (Thanks Sandi). This is the biggest glaring cause of why I am in the situation I am in. All of my life I have people-pleased and ultimately it caught up to me in the most painful way possible. This is something that I am working hard on addressing and resolving. I do not need to explain any further since everyone here knows pretty well where I stand and what I need to continue to work on.

- Confidence in myself- I have always had a problem with my image. And facing the likely reality that I will be single again brings up the questions of whether I will find another relationship with someone else if we divorce. I have my good days and my bad days, but I have been getting a little more confident each day in who I am, physically, mentally, and emotionally. I am an awesome guy. I am a caring guy. A great father. A hard worker. A funny person. I just need to show it. This is something that I need to work on. Biggest insecurity I have been dealing with all my adult life.

I do not know what is going to happen to my MR. But at this point, I am learning the hard way that I cannot control that. I can only control myself. And I'm starting to embrace it and work on it. I still pray for resolution and R, but I have accepted that R is completely out of my hands now. And I'm starting to feel...free.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
This is where I get a little frustrated with you guys. What you say above may sound logical. However, you miss the point about making her happy. First of all, she won't lose respect for you b/c you made her happy, okay? Giving her everything she wants doesn't make her happy, or define you as a good H. She loses respect b/c you become passive and won't stand up to her when she is out of line, showing disrespectful behavior toward you as her H. If she says something or does something disrespectful, do you tell yourself you will be the bigger person and ignore it? If she throws a fit of anger over something you did that she doesn't like, do you tell yourself to keep the peace and not say anything back to her, and you quietly crawl into your shell? This is the type of man a woman doesn't find attractive and she won't respect. She sees you not having the b@lls to stand up for yourself. So, she does more things that are more disrespectful. Why? B/c women want men who are stronger than she is, so she'll test him.

Some men become so centered on making the W happy that they develop a subservient behavior pattern, and that kills attraction. I've seen a lot on the board, especially when a newly LBH is trying to win back his WW. He falls into the Super Husband mode, where he's doing every bit of the housework, cooking laundry, etc. He makes up excuses, like telling the board he's doing it for himself, or he's trying to take some stress off his W, or whatever. No, he's trying to score brownie points,...Ö...and he doesn't understand why she doesn't feel sexual desire for him. In all fairness to the guys, some WW's use the housework stuff as her excuse for why she's wanting out of the M, but that is bogus. She doesn't have the hots for OM b/c her H wasn't doing enough housework. smirk

A man with NGS is going to find it's easier to leave all the decisions up to his W. He becomes very passive in everyday stuff. "Whatever you decide, dear, is fine with me". He becomes a "yes dear" kind of guy b/c he thinks it makes her happy. But it doesn't. Yes, she probably wants to pick out the colors to paint the rooms, but she wants you to pick out which car is the best quality. She wants you to get the lawn mower, and have the roof put on the house. Sometimes, she wants to hear you say where the family will eat out instead of leaving every decision up to her. We women actually think it is attractive for men to lead and make some decisions! If we have to tell him everything to do, then we start talking to him as if he is one of the kids...Ö.and/or we'll boss him around. I blame the H if he allows his W to boss him around. It's not about whether or not it makes her happy, but about dignity and respect. Does this make sense, b/c if you don't truly understand, you will continue making the same mistakes with women in relationships.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You go out looking hot and his mind is going to spin all over the place. It's human nature to want what we can't have, even if that's the spouse we've had forever. If a man rejects his spouse and then sees her being aloof towards him and going out looking like a million bucks, well suddenly he realizes the prize he's looking for was right under his nose all along. I'm not saying you can change his mind in a day or week or month but work on this and somewhere down the road he's going to start kicking himself.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
WAW only. WAW/WW. WAW/WW/w/MLC.

NONE OF IT MATTERS!!

The things you should be doing are the same. Detaching. Learn to be okay on your own! GAL. Don't be so wrapped up in your primary relationship. GAL is UBER important, so double-down on it. Look at your own toxic behavior and 180 on it.

Either you WAW, Or WW. Or W w/MLC will come around or she won't. Your focus is on YOURSELF, not on HER.


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Originally Posted by sandi2

A lot of WW's are extremely manipulative. By the time the H comes to the board for help, his WW has usually stepped over several of the H's personal boundaries, and maybe even boundaries in the M. However, we find many H's filled with so much fear that they are paralyzed to stand up for themselves. They want to apply soft, sweet, bubble soap to the dirty WW situation......and it just doesn't get the job done. (Refer to my description of the WW mindset.) When he reads about men taking back their b@lls, he wants to pull out and find something that will tell him to buy her flowers, clean the toilets for her, have long talks by the fireside, and act like her BFF. Some guys don't even know what we mean by reclaiming his b@lls. They don't realize that when they have a WW, it's all about her loss of respect for him as a man/husband. The lack of respect has killed her desire/attraction for him. Until he gets her respect, none of that other stuff works to draw her desire for him as a man.

He has to work on the respect factor, first. ...that means he has to show her that she can't run over him. He's not going to be her doormat.



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Originally Posted by Accuray
By pursuing her you're proposing that your wishes are more important than hers, and she's going to resent you for that.
DB in a nutshell.


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...all cheaters lie.


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Rise.

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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I have NEVER ONCE heard of someone asking their WAS if they had changed their mind and had the WAS said "you know what, I have, I didn't know if I should say something because you seemed so done, but let's give it a try." That NEVER happens. What does happen is the WAS will INITIATE that convo. THAT is when you know.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by pain18
What actions she will demonstrate if she is truly remorseful?
She will act like you did when you were BD.


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Originally Posted by Vapo
Cancel the shared accounts as soon as possible, but do bear in mind that the funds in it will more than likely be split 50:50. Consult a lawyer on this one, but do take action, every day wasted can mean huge problems. As well as shared savings, shared debt is also distributed 50:50, so you can find yourself in a lot of hot water really fast. Try explaining to the banks that you were "separated" when the debt was accrued, they will not give a flying fcuck. MArried on paper, you are responsible for debt. Period.

Again, do not wait, act! Procrastination is the mind killer.

I know you are afraid to make waves. What is she going to do? LEave you again? LEt her leave. You cannot stop her, and why would you want to? The best favor you can do to yourself is to release that that not want to be tied to you.


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Originally Posted by Davide
You are over-thinking it.

Don't worry about how she will react to your actions. That is her problem. Act in a way that is consistent with your values and what you believe in, that way you win no matter what. Right now you are still trying to base your actions on her and what she is going to do. You have to let go of that. You can't control her reactions.

Your sitch may very well get worse. She may react very poorly to what you do exactly because she feels like she is losing control over you. Again, you can't control that. But if you try to cater to her and her reactions you are definitely not going to get anywhere.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by pain18
Month 4 for me. That's still considered "nothing", even though a lot of changes have been made and sticking.

What is considered a "good" DBing time? If such a thing exists?


It's a great question because most people come here with unrealistic expectations about how long it takes to save a M. I've been around here a little bit and I've seen many sitches play out. And knocking on the door of 60, I've seen many play out IRL as well. Here is the pattern I've seen time and time again:

1. BD
2. LBS is sad and desperate and needy and doing anything to get WAS back, frantic that everything they are doing is "wrong" and desperate to know what are the "right" things to do to make things normal again
3. LBS works on themselves following a bunch of "steps" all with the thought of bringing the WAS back
4. WAS is still not interested, so LBS declares they are over WAS and moving on and will be fine with or without the WAS, while both feet are still planted firmly in 2 and 3
5. LBS realizes this really isn't going to "go back to normal" or be cured overnight
6. LBS starts rebuilding their life and REALLY letting the WAS go
7. LBS starts coming out of the fog and realizes the folly of 2-4 above
8. LBS drops the rope, embraces GAL, starts to find happiness again
9. WAS discovers that the life of freedom and fun they thought they were achieving is not there, begins working on themselves and wrestling with their internal demons
10. WAS starts to miss the LBS

I bet if I asked any of you, even the newer people, to name who here is in steps 2 and 3 and who is in 8 you'd be able to tell me with 95% accuracy for anyone except yourself. Just about all of you that have been here less than a year are in 2 and 3. Most of you are trying hard to convince yourselves you are in 6-8, but you are not even close. And let me tell you, you CANNOT make any wise decisions about ANYTHING when you are in 2-3. This is why we constantly counsel LBS's to WAIT before making any decisions regarding S or D. You are not in the right frame of mind, and worse, you DON'T KNOW you're not in the right frame of mind.

PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE.

Now that I've said that, not all sitches make it to these steps but many (maybe even most) do:

11. WAS wants to reconcile
12A. LBS has moved on to the point that they no longer want to reconcile with the WAS. Reasons usually include "I never want to go through that again" and/ or "once I came out of the fog I realized he/she wasn't that great of a person after all."
12B. LBS decides to give recon a try
13. Recon

Of course every LBS wants to know how long it takes to get to 11. The answer is: a lot longer than most have patience for. I've seen it happen in less than a year maybe twice. I've seen more in the 1-2 year range. I've seen most in the 2+ year range. I know no one wants to hear that, but I think if you know the reality of this you'll realize just how long the road is ahead of you. If you have to run a marathon I am not doing you a service by telling you it's only a mile long, then when you get to the mile marker tell you "oops it's a little longer" and such. You need to know how long a journey it really is.


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I was just going to suggest posting this timeline by AS....dead on and good for newbies to understand.


H-50
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S23, S14
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I feel like it should be stickied by itself. There is a lot of clarity to it. Dude is wise.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Of course every LBS wants to know how long it takes to get to 11. The answer is: a lot longer than most have patience for. I've seen it happen in less than a year maybe twice. I've seen more in the 1-2 year range. I've seen most in the 2+ year range. I know no one wants to hear that, but I think if you know the reality of this you'll realize just how long the road is ahead of you. If you have to run a marathon I am not doing you a service by telling you it's only a mile long, then when you get to the mile marker tell you "oops it's a little longer" and such. You need to know how long a journey it really is.


I was in the less than a year range. However, my situation was unique in a couple of ways. First, I initiated BD, not the other way around. I always stress this to newbies because, while I think my W had been giving up on us for about a year, I believe she was still a year or so away from getting to the point of initiating BD herself.

I also believe, that once I initiated BD, she seized on it as an opportunity to use it to give me one last chance at real, and lasting changes. IE, she really didn't have one foot out the door yet like she claimed. Yes she was wayward, yes she had a fantasy in her fogged mind, but she wasn't really at the point of pulling the trigger on her plan to get job, get an apartment and to get a D.

So while I went from BD (self initiated) to R in roughly 3 months, that is a very very unique set of circumstances that allowed for that come about. No one should look at my sitch and think theirs will happen as quickly.

Also, this was our second go around. Her first EA was in fall of 2005. I discovered MWD and DBing back then! So while I did make the usual mistakes for 2 days, by day 3 I remembered DBing. And I started to do the things DBing preachs: GAL, 180ing, detaching. Letting her go to get her back. Being AMOAFWL!!!

Many of you are much more advanced in your sitches as far as how far along towards WAW initiating BD you are, and how long you've been doing the wrong things before switching to DBing. And how intent on Ding your WAS/WS may be.

AS' timeline is pretty spot on in 95% of sitches.


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Originally Posted by FlySolo
Oh, and she will second guess herself. One dark night when she is alone, and the freedom she so desperately sought and was willing to blow up her life for has lost its sparkle, she will second guess herself.

Not now though. There is far too much momentum. From the sounds of it, when that happens it might be too late for her.


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Originally Posted by Sandi2
The H is headed for a big trap with no way out if he agrees to be her BFF while she is wayward........b/c of the WW's disrespectful and selfish mindset. If she doesn't want to be M to him, why would he choose to be friends with someone who lies, betrays and deceives him? If he doesn't respect himself any more than that...Ö.no wonder she doesn't respect him.

Originally Posted by sandi2
If you want things to change, and for good, it will probably require you doing a few things that may feel a little uncomfortable. We won't cross that bridge tonight, but just know if you intend to really change how she treats you and how she acts in the MR......it will be challenging.

Last edited by burned; 11/22/18 02:16 AM.

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Originally Posted by pain18
The hardest part of being in this sitch is determining how to move in a direction that will get out you out of limbo. Whether it's towards R or D. Words mean nothing. Actions mean more but should be scrutinized.


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Originally Posted by Vapo
lost her you already have. There is no if when you ask the question about your marriage. Your marriage is dead, it died at BD. You have lost her at that time at the latest, but most probably a couple of years prior to BD. When she quit nagging you most likely thought that you were doing great. You were, but she was checked out by then.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS. The WAS is often confused. Especially if the LBS starts to move on. The WAS starts to be eaten up with thoughts of "am I doing the right thing here?" And with most humans, when they start having doubts on something they've convinced themselves they want, they take action.....or the illusion of action. Thus "Hey, I am going to file for D but need your help."

He doesn't need your help to file for D. If he is talking this way likely he has no plans to follow through. So why get yourself worked up over something that might not even happen?!? Especially since he likely knows just mentioning it will send you spiraling. Why let him have that kind of power.


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Originally Posted by Yail
My two cents on the W vs H piece - I personally think a great deal of this is learned gendered behavior in our society. Women are taught to nurture others and to almost martyr themselves for the good of the family. So in walking away, they've had to give up SO MUCH of their identity to get to that point that it is probably harder to walk back. And for some of them they may secretly resent the position they lived in their whole lives. The freedom to cast off the identity that has been pushed towards them since birth may be too enticing.

I think this may be why DB is so important, especially for H wanting a W back. He must be patient and back off to show that it is not his intent to box her back into the pressures society has pressed on her. She must feel confident in walking back to him as a PERSON and that they have the freedom to redefine their own marriage outside of societal pressures.


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Originally Posted by Vapo
Burn,

you do the 180s for you, and not for anyone else. Because if you start doing it for anyone else, you will be constantly looking over your shoulder and gnawing in dissapointment when you do not see anyone looking at that exact moment. You have to get your mojo back. You really think your W left because you were being a slob? No! It might play a miniscule part in it, but a very small part indeed.

180s are about getin your mojo back, getting your confidence back, loving yourself and your life. It is then and only then you will be attracting quality people in your life. Broken attracts broken...


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
No expectations:
"She just texted me that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore. LOL! Man these WAS's and their crazy talk. I responded by going to work out and then took my son shopping for a new jacket, his old one was looking pretty worn. Oh and I set a new PR in bench press!"

Expectations:
"She just texted me that she has come to the resolve that the chance for R for her is not there anymore. And here I really thought things were turning around. Well I guess that's it, I'm going to sit at home waiting for the D papers to arrive and I might as well write my will while I'm at it because my life is officially over."

Be the former, not the latter.


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Originally Posted by Living
But now I am fed up. Iím done trying to save my marriage. Iím not the one that broke it so Iím tired of being the one trying to fix it. My H no longer wants to be married. He no longer wants to be confined by a marriage. He wants the freedom to come and go as he pleases and to go find happiness. Iím not the one that wants out he is. So the ball is in his court. As I stated he wants to be separated, he wants out of this marriage (his words), so Iím showing him the door. Time to start living authentic and be separated.

Originally Posted by burned
Just to reiterate, what I've learned here is that this attitude is what leads to progress. But now you'll need to be selective about which actions move you closer to, or further away from, your goal of saving the marriage. But, you say, you don't want to save the marriage. Great! Leave it at that and you might find that the marriage saves itself.

"Let him go to get him back." It WILL be up to you to decide if you want him back, if he asks to return. But you're nowhere close to that point yet.

You say you don't have a manual. This forum is your manual. Post, post, post and pretty soon you'll get a better sense of "what to do." Just always be sure to think about what you're doing, and why. Act, don't react. Make rational choices, not emotional choices.


That being said, your "fed up" feeling might have been a good push to overcome that initial inertia. You take your power back, you regain some self-respect, and THEN you have more room to maneuver in terms of making choices. You bring yourself from a place where you have only one choice, to a place where you can choose from many.


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Originally Posted by TJT
Originally Posted by Did
I just want to use the MC as a forum for communication.


Does it seem to have worked up to this point? You have to realize if someone is not willing to hear you, communicating won't work.

Communication entails a sender and receiver, as well as "encoding" of the message that occurs between the two parties impacting how it's ultimately perceived.

If the way you two were approaching that communication process was the only thing broken, or even the main thing broken along with other things, I can see how it might be useful to focus on that. But as lots of folks, including yourself, have pointed out, there are much more serious things that are causing the damage in your relationship.

You have done what you could to let W know how you feel and try to improve that part - but there's nothing more you can do if those larger issues are not addressed, and you will just be beating a dead horse. She will not hear you or if she does, she won't care. Why put yourself through that over and over and over again when it hasn't been working?


This is outstanding. MC is about two people FIXING their marriage. If both people are not bought into it, committed to making it work, and actively trying, MC has no chance of working. And it certainly shouldn't be used for things it is not intended to be. (For instance, MC isn't for getting your obstinate, one-foot out the door spouse to listen to you!)

Last edited by Steve85; 11/29/18 09:56 PM.

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Originally Posted by burned
Here's your homework:
1. List the 5 things that you are most passionate about, the things that make you YOU.
2. List the 5 things that you hate most about yourself.
3. List the 5 people who love you most.
4. For each of those 5 people, ask yourself: what's more important to them, List 1 or List 2? And if you did NOTHING from List 2, would they love you more? And if you did NOTHING from List 1, would they love you less?

If you're comfortable, post your answers here.

I'm gonna drag that NGS out of you and beat the s#it out of it. It's a demon inside of you that is eating your soul. No, I'm going to make YOU drag that NGS out of yourself.

Behind the fear and the pain, there is an amazing person waiting to be born. You can do this. Believe in yourself. YOU ARE GOING TO KICK A$$ AT LIFE and you'll be walking down the street in that beautiful PNW winter rain and you'll need a cattle prod to keep all the ladies away.

[Dear God, I'm about to hit "Post Reply" and I'm terrified.]


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by burned
OK, here's what it looks like in my notebook right now. I'm a bit confused as to how to keep track of all this stuff without having to re-read the list constantly. Like, how do I keep it at the front of my mind all the time? Anyway:

Overall goal: be a better person (more attractive, etc.)

A. develop good habits
1. make the bed daily for 2 weeks in a row
2. do the dishes before bed 3 days in a row (assuming I cook at home)
3. do pushups and setups every morning for 1 week (ankle still broken, no gym yet) -- this cross-links to C.1 below
4. cook at least 2 healthy meals per week, INCLUDING VEGETABLES and possibly meat, for 1 month

B. develop emotional control/regulation
1. write in gratitude journal every night for 1 week
2. attend IC sessions weekly (achieved, consistently)
3. take medication daily (achieved, consistently)
4. read one new self-help book per week (achieved 11/19/18, not achieved last week)
5. review one previously-read self-help book per week (achieved 12/2/18)
6. write a forgiveness letter to W (don't send) before the end of November (partially achieved, it got intense so I set it aside but it's already a page long)

C. improve physical health
1. daily exercise (see A.3 above)
2. use crutches and/or knee scooter daily (not doing great there)
3. lift weights with trainer once per week (he comes to our office twice a week)
4. drink no more than 3 beers per night for 1 week (consistently failed, in spectacular fashion)

D. improve social skills
1. leave the apartment at least once per day for any reason (achieved)
2. go to 1 Meetup event per week (achieved, but always the same one)
2.1. (just added) go to one NEW Meetup event per month
3. find and read a book about making small talk before the end of December (cross-links to B.4 above)
3.1. (just added) find and read a book about "dating skills" (ugh) before the end of January (cross-links to B.4 above)
4. find and attend a communication skills class/seminar/group before the end of February
4.1. (just added) find and attend a conflict tolerance/assertiveness class/seminar/group before the end of January
5. review "I Hear You" book (cross-links to B.5 above) and use those skills in at least one interaction per day
6. reconnect with at least two friends with whom I lost contact (achieved, in fact the two people I wanted to reach out to both contacted me, spontaneously, within the span of 2 weeks, so I gave them the sad news and they were very supportive)
7. correspond once a month with godmother/aunt (via email) -- she emailed me a week ago asking about how I'm doing, so there's an opportunity right there
8. send thank-you note to brother for a favor he did

E. enjoy time participating in hobbies and learning new things
1. brew a batch of beer that W wouldn't like (future goal may be to enter it into a competition, but let's pace ourselves)
1.1. find my brewing equipment (possibly in W's garage), or buy new equipment and ingredients online
2. visit one new city before the end of 2019 (this is the sort of thing I SHOULD have been doing with W, it's less fun alone)
3. read one non-self-help book per month (achieved Nov. 2018, just got a good one for Dec.)
4. plan backpacking trip on the AT for a week next summer (again, it was fun with W, but now I will have to do it "alone," but you always meet cool people anyway)
5. sell a photo
5.1. choose 10 best photos to print (I hate going into Lightroom because I always accidentally run into photos of W and of our life when she existed)...so:
5.1.1. create a new Lightroom catalog that only includes neutral photos, or
5.1.2. get rip-roarin' drunk, and just plow through it, and cry for a while and then be done with it
6. learn to play the piano
6.1 get a stand to put the keyboard on
6.2 ask friend who plays if he could teach me (bonus: social interaction)
7. learn one new song on the guitar before the end of 2018
8. learn to juggle?

F. do things for others
1. volunteer for 1-2 hours at least once per week
1.1. find a place to volunteer (achieved 11/28/18)
2. donate $100 to a charity once per month

I have a few other goals that are somewhat more important but difficult to operationalize like this. They involve catching up with unfinished work, and confronting several people to own up to some serious character flaws that I would like them to either forgive me for or tell me where I stand, stuff like that. I'll have to work on those. Rough draft:

G. stop procrastinating, learn to follow through
1. go to work for 4 hours for 3 consecutive weeks?
2. complete at least 1 unfinished project per week until the end of the year?

H. stop hiding mistakes, rebuild trust with various people/groups
1. have that talk with boss -- don't do to your job what your W did to you -- stand strong, admit your mistakes, accept responsibility for the consequences, deal with the fallout as it comes


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I had a nice talk with a social worker I know today. She says she knows several couples who were in relationships with not a lot wrong but ended up divorced because one of the partners decided they werenít happy and that happiness could be found ďout thereĒ. I asked her how many found what they were looking for. She was quite confident that most of them figured out that the grass was not necessarily greener on the other side and they just traded one set of problems for another set of problems. Like I told my H, and he laughed, ďyou canít divorce yourself.Ē


H(37) W(35)
D8, D5, S3
T20, M13
BD 8/31/18
EA Discovered 9/13/18
Mediation 10/3/18
W files for D 10/12/18
W moves out 11/10/18
EA confirmed 12/25/18
D Final 1/10/19
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Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I had a nice talk with a social worker I know today. She says she knows several couples who were in relationships with not a lot wrong but ended up divorced because one of the partners decided they werenít happy and that happiness could be found ďout thereĒ. I asked her how many found what they were looking for. She was quite confident that most of them figured out that the grass was not necessarily greener on the other side and they just traded one set of problems for another set of problems. Like I told my H, and he laughed, ďyou canít divorce yourself.Ē


Iíve thought about this, too, in reading the forums and the book.

That if or when S / D happens in my sitch, Iíve often wondered if W would find out that things arenít all that much better without me. And that whatever anger / depression she carries with her now would follow her into the futureóincluding any other relationships right now.

Which is why it is so important that I GAL and fix what I need and what I can in myself.

Last edited by Bo562; 12/04/18 02:22 PM.

M: 36
W: 30
T: 9
M: 7

S6 (OS)
S7mo (YS)

ILYBINILWY BD: Feb. Ď18

W Wants S / D BD: 1/4/19

H / W still in-house

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Originally Posted by Steve85
Which of the following would drive her away faster:

- The goodnight you gave her last night where you leaned in to kiss her arm.
or
- Just getting up, saying goodnight, and heading off to bed.

In a healthy, normal relationship, obviously the second would be behavior that would push a W away. However, once you are dealing with a WAW....now the above is flipped on its head. And what feels counter-intuitive actually is less driving away than what you normally should do.


Read the distance and pursuit thread. All of us come here thinking DBing will drive a wedge between us and our WAS. When in truth the opposite is usually what occurs!


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by sandi2
When a man wants to make love to his wife.....he needs to start with her head/mind and work downward. If he wants to make love that night, he needs to start prepping her that morning.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Bo562
Iíve thought about this, too, in reading the forums and the book.

That if or when S / D happens in my sitch, Iíve often wondered if W would find out that things arenít all that much better without me. And that whatever anger / depression she carries with her now would follow her into the futureóincluding any other relationships right now.


I've been stuck wondering too, but it doesn't help. My straight shooting cousin (who is like a sister to me) said that my XW is beautiful, and she will find another man. It may not work out for her. I might get a small bit of satisfaction from that However, it may turn out that she finds Mr. Right and lives a great life with him. I need to be okay with that. I need to be detached enough to accept it but also realize that I'm a great guy who has a chance to find somebody that is a better fit for me.

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Originally Posted by Amoafwl
It's not about "Giving her help". That is NOT why you are doing it.

It's because you are contributing where you have responsibility. Its about who YOU are as a person....not what it means to her or for her.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Joseph9
In my opinion the one thing different in all of our sitches is the spouse on the other end. Some are posers and as soon as the LBS puts their foot down, kicks them out of the house, etc. that loss is enough to snap them out of it. Others have their minds completely made up and are gone 100%. From what I have seen on this board most fall into the second category of being gone 100%.

With that said, again in my opinion, one day.....many years down the road the WW will wake up, look up, and say WTF did I do???? By that time you will have moved on, more than likely have experienced other women, etc. If she wakes up and you are not in a relationship and the stars are aligned then you could have a shot. If she wakes up and you have moved on to another happy, healthy relationship then you will have no desire (like AS).

At this juncture you are still so focused on R with your XW that you forget that YOU also have a choice. You don't see it now but you eventually will. You will see that there are other amazing women out there that will appreciate you and love you for who you are and what you bring to the table (they will all want to have sex with you as well!!). The longer you dwell on your W, the longer you delay focusing on yourself, the longer your recovery time will be. I understand it is very hard to let go, use your time wisely, make the best of it.

My XW moved out 3 weeks after BD and I immediately got to work. Hard as hell it was but I am now reaping the benefits. I am a 100% whole person (financially, emotionally, and physically) and I do not need anything from anyone else to enjoy a happy, fulfilling, wonderful life.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Joseph9
I know the OM stings but I would try really hard to not get too wrapped up with him. To me I saw it as a sign of weakness on my XW's part. She ended a 17 yr relationship with me and went "as is" from one R to another and never took time for herself to heal or grow as a person. Hard to see now but eventually it will catch up with her. Just know that anyone outside of you at the moment will be attractive to your W. Also know that generally the OM relationships don't last, many times it just makes it easier for them to leave.

That is why you turn yourself into a fuching A$$ kicking machine so when she does look up one day your a GOD DAM WARRIOR not some fing d-bag rocking back and forth in the corner sucking his thumb. Get in the gym and lift a ton of fuching weights so she will look at you with respect and think to herself.."man he has got it going on, I think I want to get a piece of that".


Do this in all areas: Physical, Mental, Spiritual, Financial, Emotional and any other areas of personal growth.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Steve85
Wasn't she just as determined when she took wedding vows with you? She changes her mind once, she can do so again. The key is to let her go. Stop trying to fix things and her. Save yourself, not the marriage.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Living
Reflection:

What I think is working in my sitch...

Please be warned that by no means am I an expert at DB. I am almost 3 months into my sitch this time around.

* The positive changes that Iím making in myself. Also being consistent with those changes. In the past I made changes but wasnít consistent. Some of the changes are things that my H complained about. And you know what? My change has inspired a few changes in him. Example: one thing he complained about is the kitchen not getting cleaned up before we go to bed. Iíve made sure for the last 2 months (since he brought it up) that the kitchen is spotless before we go to bed. At first it started out with me just cleaning the kitchen. Now, he comes in and helps me each night.

* GAL - H and I normally spend weekends together (doing nothing but together) heís been shocked to see me getting all dressed up and GAL without him. I shall continue with this. Iíve made a list of things I want to do and Iím checking them off.

* That brings me to looking good. Iíve been making sure I get up everyday and I make myself look beautiful. In all honesty, I had totally let myself go. I felt frumpy and it showed. Now I get up put on nice clothes, makeup, fix my hair and walk around with confidence. When my husband met me I was confident and took very good care of myself. Iím getting back to that person and it feels good.

*Iíve started to loose weight H never complained about that but the extra weight affected my confidence. I also didnít feel sexy and that affected our sex life. So Iíve started to loose weight so I can feel better about myself and to get healthier. After all, Iím not getting any younger. Iíve lost 15 pounds so far and it feels great. My plan is to start working out, Iím just trying to fit ghat into my crazy schedule.

* At night I always put on something cute and feminine. No more old oversized raggedy t-shirts. No more of my H shorts. This has made him notice me but itís also boosted my confidence. I feel sexy and I love it. Now Iím not taking over the top lingerie. No just feminine pajamas.

* When Iíve noticed that my H is watching me like a hawk, I will do little things to make him watch me even more. These things are subtle but they definitely get his attention.

* I have detached from him. This seems to be one of the things that has scared him. Itís showing him what a life without me will look like. Unfortunately for my H he still lives at home, so me detaching from him is even harder. He has to watch me walk around (looking good) and know that Iím not fooling with him.

* I put him and all of his things out of our MBR. Heís totally moved into our daughters bedroom (sheís away at college). He never in a million years thought he would come home to find all of his things laying on her bed. Thatís where heís been sleeping and will continue to sleep until he gets it together or moves out. Again, this is showing him what life will be like without me. Each night he begs to come sleep with me and I decline.

* When he comes to talk with me about our sitch, I just listen and let him talk. It helps because I really want to hear what heís saying. I also want him to feel comfortable talking with me.

* I havenít said the words ďI love youĒ in probably 2 months.

* Iím showing him a self-confident woman who will survive with or without him.

Thatís it, thatís what I think is working. Again Iím no expert and if you look at my thread youíll see that. I have good days and bad days. This has been one of the toughest challenges of my life. I love my H with all my heart. I truly hope things work out for us but if they donít, I must go on with life.

One of the best things that has happened is me finding this forum. Everyone that has commented on my threads has truly helped me. Iím not sure where I would be if I hadnít found this forum. I probably would have begged my H and continued to make myself look like a fool. I probably also would have totally chased him away. This forum has been a Godsend. Itís given me the tools to navigate this uncharted terrain that is know as my marriage.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Choose to be positive and happy.


1/6/18-BD OM1
2/18-W meets OM2
4/18-W intros D4 to OM2
5/18-ďRomance ends"
7/18-DB start
7/18-IHS Ends
4/19-WW moves out
3/21-D filed

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Originally Posted by Amoafwl
How would your actions today change if I told you W was 100% coming back? 0% coming back? somewhere in the middle?
Originally Posted by Burned
If she were 100% coming back I could spend my time doing the things I used to do, which I enjoyed tremendously. If she were 0% coming back I could spend time finding someone to replace her, someone to build a life with, someone who appreciates the essentially decent and likable person I used to be.


Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Iím having trouble understanding this.
Why arenít these the same answer?
Why does your immediate plan depend on her?

And...what if I told you that your actions now IMPACT those percentages...in other words, you canít know whether itís at 0 or 100 or somewhere in the middle. So how can you prepare a plan for YOU not based on her?


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by FlySolo
Your happiness does not depend on another person - be it your wife or her 'replacement'. Your happiness depends on you. Do the things you enjoy because you enjoy them. Read a book in the park (if weather permits) or (if weather doesn't permit) find a nice cozy pub and read your book there over a pint. Go out and meet new people - not with the idea that they could replace your wife, but just for the sheer joy of getting to know new people. One day at a time. Live in the present. The happiness will come. Just do it. No matter how hard it is, get your sorry @rse out of the chair, step away from the computer and go out and get some ice-cream (or a fish fingers and a sprite).


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Joseph9
I know the OM stings but I would try really hard to not get too wrapped up with him. To me I saw it as a sign of weakness on my XW's part. She ended a 17 yr relationship with me and went "as is" from one R to another and never took time for herself to heal or grow as a person. Hard to see now but eventually it will catch up with her. Just know that anyone outside of you at the moment will be attractive to your W. Also know that generally the OM relationships don't last, many times it just makes it easier for them to leave.

That is why you turn yourself into a fuching A$$ kicking machine so when she does look up one day your a GOD DAM WARRIOR not some fing d-bag rocking back and forth in the corner sucking his thumb. Get in the gym and lift a ton of fuching weights so she will look at you with respect and think to herself.."man he has got it going on, I think I want to get a piece of that".


Do this in all areas: Physical, Mental, Spiritual, Financial, Emotional and any other areas of personal growth.


I live this mindset now. It is helping me tremendously. I see and feel the changes. I see and feel more attractive. More confident. More MAN.


1/6/18-BD OM1
2/18-W meets OM2
4/18-W intros D4 to OM2
5/18-ďRomance ends"
7/18-DB start
7/18-IHS Ends
4/19-WW moves out
3/21-D filed

Formerly pain18

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Is this a forum for saving the marriage or a subtle way to let us down easy?
Originally Posted by sandi2
It is about saving yourself, becoming the best person you can be, and saving your S. are there any guarantees or 100% M are saved? Nobody, no program, book or forum can give you that kind of guarantee.

Every person's situation is a little different from someone else. When reading another poster's thread, be careful in taking the advice he may get for his situation and think it is over all advice for every one, unless it's clarified.

While you wait on your book, read those links Cadet gave you. They are important to grasping a lot of what we talk about here.

One of those links is called, "Sandi's Rules". It is a guide to help newcomers get their bearings when they first arrive.

Be sure to read the detachment thread. Don't assume you know what it means.

Right this minute, stop all pursuing action! It only pushes her away. Stop being available to her. Stop initiating contact throughout the day. Pull back, but not with a cold or mad attitude. Know the difference in DBing detachment from cold/angry.

At this point, instead of trying to prove what a good MR you could have, maybe she needs a glimpse of how it would feel if she didn't have you in her life. No hanging out together, no contacting to chat, no being her BFF, no family togetherness, holiday events, etc. Here's where I'm going. Instead of trying to convince her to stay, you need to become the guy she doesn't want to lose. You can't be that guy if you are chasing her, right? As long as you pursue her, she knows she has you in her pocket.

I'm not saying to make her jealous, or anything like that. I am saying to find the man you would be if you didn't have her. Focus on inner strength. Be the best daddy you can be. Be the best man you can be. But don't try to win her back by showing her what a great H you can be......(at least, not at this particular tim). She really does need space, and a lot of it. So, give it to her. You do your own thing and leave her alone. Right now, she isn't worried about losing you. You are worried about losing her. How can that dynamic change? Not by you dating, or trying to purposely make her jealous, but by detaching and getting a life. You can learn more about GAL, what it is and what it isn't.

Give yourself a deep evaluation as a man, H, and daddy. See where you need to improve. Set some small goals to get there. Oh, and remember something, some things you'll read in some relationship books may not be something you can apply immediately, but you can take in the information to use latter when the time is right. Timing is everything!


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Originally Posted by sandi2
Some people may suggest using every stall tactic you can, to slow the S or D process. IMO, it just causes the WW to feel more contempt for the H. But that's your decision to make. If it is you trying to get control of the stitch, I don't think it will work.

You can't talk her into changing her mind. The more you try to persuade her to not D you, the faster you push her away. Be honest. What do you think you will accomplish by prolonging the S? If you are thinking that in time she will come around and things will just work itself out............you are in for a big let down. It doesn't happen that way.

Don't misunderstand and think I am pushing you to run out and be first to file. I'm not. I want you to take a deep breath and use your head and answer these questions as honestly as you can. Not to me, but to yourself.

You are wanting to make some move that will stall her from ending the M. Right? Those desperate thoughts will likely prevent you from calming down enough to really learn what you need to apply.

As far as she's concerned, the M is over. Taking time or space is what a WW says to just get away from her H. That's her first step. She has already thought it over. Am I saying this is totally hopeless? No. I think your actions could influence the final results. Don't be afraid of the D papers. That fear will imprison you.

Until you have enough discipline to stop initiating contact with her, nothing you do is going to work in your favor. (And don't use your little girl as an excuse to contact WW). So, I challenge you to go this entire week without initiating any contact. If she texts you, give only two to four word responses.......and only if she asks a direct question that requires an answer. Think you can do it?

You see, it's not about what she does, but what you do. It isn't about controlling her actions, but your own.

You know what the majority of newcomers say about the 37 rules? "They are so hard". They aren't hard. It is the individual person who doesn't want to do them. They are afraid to trust them. However, I have little doubt that every newcomer has done every one of those rules at some time in their marital past, and thought nothing of it. But now, they are disparate! Now they feel threatened. They are scared to death and clinging like crazy to keep their spouse from getting a D. Now the dynamics have changed, and the rules seem unbearable. Do you see what I mean?

Remember how you felt when you fell out of love with her? Yet, you want to believe you can still see her love for you shining in her eyes? If this were true, she would not be trying to get away from you! Does she still care about you? Probably, b/c you are the father of her child. But caring and feeling in love are two different things to a young woman. She can care about a friend or a relative. So, don't be delusional about how she feels about you. I'm not saying you are the type, but some men try to tell a woman what she really feels........as though she doesn't have enough sense to figure it out herself. Truth is, she may be confused and don't know what she's feeling........but it is not your job to tell her. It makes women furious for a man to argue about what she's feeling! Just thought I'd give you that little tip.


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What Greek says Coach did to win her back:

I will tell you what Coach did to win me back - after I left our home and filed for D. He stopped doing all the other things that got me to the point of walking out of the door. He stopped trying to arrange my reactions. He stopped trying to control what I would think or do. He stopped telling me how I should feel. He stopped telling me what would happen if... He dropped the rope and said WITH HIS ACTIONS: "Greek, I can see that you are hell bent on leaving for reasons that you have made abundantly clear to me. Some of those reasons have merit and I will deal with them for my own sake. But I can't keep you here and I won't try. The action I will take is to work on areas in my life that have contributed to the difficulties in our R and other R in my life; I will begin to take care of myself in a way I have neglected for some time now (GAL); I will handle protect myself against the legal action you took against our M; I will conduct myself with strength and honor." This was and is totally attractive! It's strong. It's confident. It's respectful - both of me and of Coach.

It's not about 'doing nothing.' It's about doing what works - putting the ACTION in the right place.

Greek


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Joe, congrats, not just on the possibility of recon but on well and truly moving on and finding yourself! I wish every new person would read your sitch beginning to end because so many of them talk about how their wives/ husbands tell them it's over and there is no hope, etc. etc. and they don't seem to believe us when we say that is only how they feel RIGHT NOW and it can and probably will change down the road. I mean your ex was saying all those same things and now look at her, fully repentant, humble and begging you to take her back. And look at the incredible strength you are showing, not just rolling the red carpet out for her and striking up the band as she moves back in, but treading carefully and establishing boundaries. Seriously, you are a model of how this should take place, well done!



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Originally Posted by burned
You are suffering, and it shows. This could be the hardest part, but knowing that doesnít make it any easier. Youíre hitting the anger phase and it will test you. Can you be strong but also gentle? Especially with yourself? Do you have ways to cope with the frustration that youíre clearly feeling? And especially the frustration that comes from the fear that youíre doing something wrong and losing your sense of control, and feeling like youíre losing your W?

One thing for certain is that you will protect your children with your life. Bet you 5 bucks your W knows that and knows exactly how to get under your skin.

NC helped me see those kinds of patterns better, but it took time, and in the moment itís still hard not to react as if everything is normal and itís a normal conversation about normal life. The rules have changed, now thereís a thin layer of manipulative WW diarrhea layered on top of everything. Itís all fraught. You have to put in extra effort to see through it. Give yourself extra time. ďAct as ifĒ she has some ulterior motive. What is it? And how can you dodge it?


Build up a few different contingency plans, at least in your mind, so that you could honestly entertain the idea that if you told W to go F herself, your kids would be fine. You donít have to act on any of it. But frustration comes from feeling like youíre stuck with no options except the one thatís being forced on you. So create other options.


The purpose of saying ďEmail me and Iíll get back to youĒ is so that you get an extra 24 hours to lose it a bit, spin, break a few dishes, cry a bit, sleep, and wake up the next morning clear headed, thinking, Oh, I see what she did there, hereís how Iím going to handle it. Rather than reacting to her in the moment. Because otherwise sheíll play you.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Definitely do not ignore problems, address them. Be cool, calm and collected. Handle problems like a business transaction. I deal with 1001 problems a day at work. When I was married I would get very emotional with W about problems, venting and such (not at her, but around her). After BD I was all business when it came to problem resolution. Just like I am at the office. That's the way to treat it.



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Originally Posted by RyanHun
One thing that has helped me in a huge way including when waking up is shifting from a mindset of "have to" to "get to". Wake up and think of all the things you get to do. You get to go to work, be productive and socialize with co workers. Tonight you get to go boxing. Tonight you get to go grocery shopping. And guess what you don't have someone to bug you when you go pick up that tub of ice cream as a treat to yourself anymore. You get to do some chores tonight, put on some music, have a glass of wine to sip on while you work around the house and have fun with it. I know things suck but try and spin it around into a positive light.


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Originally Posted by Joe2017
Once you progress to the point that you become indifferent to your WW you will feel like a new man. I promise.


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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2823459&page=4
Originally Posted by kiro
Originally Posted by paco123
In other words, we know the problems. We know the solution. Each of us has to lovingly offer compromise. But as all of us in this virtual community know, that is a choice that must be made willingly.

It's gotta be more complicated than that, but maybe it's because you didn't provide details. Honestly, I don't buy this brief simple explanation.

The reason they are not willing to make the choice is because they refuse to deal with their issues. They prefer to run away from their issues and blame us for putting it in their face. We remind them of their inner struggles and pains. We are like a mirror for them. They hope that they can ignore their pains and all the emotional turmoils by staying away from us. And it will work for a while.

I don't believe that they built the resentment because of us. I see that explanation as not taking responsibility for their choices and their inner issues. They built the resentment mostly because of their internal issues and their emotional immaturity.

Part of their inner issues is not understanding the difference between emotions and true love. They are so confused internally and they probably have always been even if they appear stable from the outside. They think that the choice they are making is to separate from us, but in reality it's a choice to run away from any intimate relationship and hoping that their pains will go away.

But because they are in such a rebellious state right now and they have the illusion that they solved their problems, they are usually defensive and will get angry if anyone tries to help them.

Unfortunately, everyone around them will realize that trying to tell them the truth is a lost battle (even the therapists IMHO) and will just push them further away. And so everyone who still cares for them decides to listen and approve what they say. Basically, they are like teenagers who are struggling to grow emotionally. They hurt the closest people to them.

Their emotions need to calm down which will take a long time. Then they will need to tear down the wall that they have built and that is blinding them. Then, they may start seeing their issues and then they'll have a choice to make. Either go through the pain and face their issues or continue running.

It is very complicated. So I decided to also run away from her issues and move on.

My 2 cents!


Last edited by Twofeet; 12/15/18 09:08 PM.

H(37) W(35)
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T20, M13
BD 8/31/18
EA Discovered 9/13/18
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Life is not a trip down easy street in a chauffeured limousine. It's a gritty, grimy slog through mud and broken glass. You let it defeat you or you make it your b****.


H: 35 W: 33
M: 11 T: 13

4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1")
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Originally Posted by steve85
So we are less than one week away from the 1 year anniversary of BD. While Ring and piecing is still going, I can't help but think of and relive the emotions from a year ago.

A couple things keep ruminating in my cortex. First, how long I noticed that she was distant and different last year, but ignored it. Second, how robot like she was in dealing with everything. For a very emotional person her ability to just blatantly state "I don't want to be married anymore" is astounding.

Also, BD was 12/23/2017. On Christmas Eve and Christmas she was very affectionate. Now newbies, listen up. It was very very easy to read this as her having second thoughts. However, she told me later she "knew I was hurting". She even was sharing things with me on her phone after weeks of secretive phone usage. She had removed all the apps she was using for EA, and this was her way of throwing me off the scent. Again, newbies, do not fall for these tactics.

Some of you might ask, why was she doing this? Remember, she was a WW. A WAW would probably have taken different steps, but she was trying to have her cake and eat it too. Her "plan" was out of the bag but she needed me and the security I provide in the meantime. She couldn't have me kicking her to the curb in the meantime. (In fact, she later after we moved to Ring told me that she knew I really loved her because I didn't move on immediately.)

So we are about 9 months into Ring and piecing. And the difference between last year at this time and this year are, profound. It struck me yesterday that we were one week away from the anniversary of BD. And there we were, flirting, talking, sharing, interacting, being a couple! (I did get turned down for sex on Saturday, only the second time since we started Ring. She's been dealing with shoulder pain and they were bothering her. I used it as an example of how I changed, since I used to pout, get distant, and act like an infant. (NGS) Just shows that I have 180'd on that.

Lots of family and extended family events coming up this week and next. So nice to be engaged as a couple rather than acting like two individuals with no connection. And yet I am still cognizant of being self-differentiated. If she were to BD now my reaction would be so much different than it was a year ago.

One other thing, at my mom's on Friday night after my D's basketball game (she hit the game winning free-throw by the way!), my W asked me to get her shoes. Last year I would have sighed heavily, or made it known someway that she can get her OWN shoes. But now I am happy to help her and cheerfully retrieved them for her. 180s galore!

Still lots of work on me to do...but I am proud of the strides I have made in the last year.


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Originally Posted by BluWave
I firmly believe that in order to have a genuine M, both people must be willing to look at themselves, be willing to change, and have remorse for the pain they have caused. I see this from you, but she seems far from even admitting to what she has done. She has given you no reason to trust her. So while you might be able to do some patchwork here and there and get her into counseling, she does not yet have an open heart. SHE IS STILL WAYWARD! Sure you have made your mistakes, we all have. That does not entitle her to have an affair. And she hasn't even admitted to it? We all teach people how to treat us. How do you want to be treated by your W? I ask you again, how do you think you deserve to be treated?

Some posters here think they can come here, follow the rules, and somehow win their S back. Their only focus is that if their M is restored, they will somehow have a better life. That is not how life works! Life is what WE make of it. They also are so internally wounded they refuse to see their reality. Truth is, you cannot force someone to love you or respect you. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! Don't you guys want to be in a M where you are loved and respected? Isn't that what M is about? Having someone physically there is not a real partnership...... Down the road, if and only if, she shows you a woman that is remorseful and committed to you, then you can consider if you want her back.

Blu


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Originally Posted by doodler
I try to stay away from this forum because I always get p*ssed when I read the various stories and it seems like everyone tiptoes around the obvious. Look, your wife is not a WAW. The probability that she's having and affair is roughly the same as the probability that the sun will come up tomorrow morning. She's with her affair partner on the weekends, and yet, she still gets her comfy bed and family life during the week. In other words, she gets to eat her cake and have it too. She's cake eating. She's living the dream. She has no incentive to change. If you're happy being in an open relationship, then you're good to go, otherwise you need to wake up and take action. You can start by getting the master bedroom back stop allowing her to dictate your life. The doormat has got to go, otherwise she'll never have any respect for you and you won't have any respect for yourself.

And, maybe doodler isn't DB, I don't really know, and maybe you shouldn't do what doodler would do, but...I'd tell her it's perfectly fine if she wants to go see her "girlfriend" for the weekend, but when she returns from her weekend getaway, she'd best be prepared to get her sh*t off the front lawn and go find a place to live. Locks changed, credit cards cancelled, and an appointment has been made with a lawyer.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Joe, first of all you're doing all the right things in setting boundaries and not rushing things, well done! Regarding the above, just tell her how you feel. If she asks about getting married again just tell her that is a conversation for well down the road, that even her mentioning it to you at this time is causing you anxiety because you're not ready for that yet. This happens a lot at the beginning of recon, the WAS and LBS switch places. The WAS is the one that's pursuing and pressuring and the LBS is the one that's trying to pull back and create space. The thing is, you know how to be a LBS, she doesn't. So train her. Tell her you need to take it slow, and she needs to respect you and give you time and space to process this all.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Self-differentiation was a game-changer for me. I had become so codependent, even as toxic as our MR had become, that I couldn't fathom happiness without her. Since all of that I have discovered and realized that I need to celebrate our differences, not be ashamed of them. And to be happy in those differences. She may hate the music I listen to, the movies I love, and the TV shows I watch, but that is not a reflection on me! It is me being me and finding my own happiness. When that dynamic is lost in a MR there is no hope of long-term success. Eventually the weight of both people's happiness will cause the one it falls to to collapse. This dynamic is a huge factor is so many of the sitches here.


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I donít know if this is the proper place, but figured it would reach more people than posting in my own thread. I just came across a song and music video that is about DBing basically.

Google - Be Alright by Dean Lewis and watch and listen

Lyrics

Quote
I look up from the ground
To see your sad and teary eyes
You look away from me
And I see there's something you're trying to hide
And I reach for your hand but it's cold
You pull away again
And I wonder what's on your mind
And then you say to me you made a dumb mistake
You start to tremble and your voice begins to break
You say the cigarettes on the counter weren't your friends
They were my mates
And I feel the color draining from my face
And my friend said
"I know you love her, but it's over, mate
It doesn't matter, put the phone away
It's never easy to walk away, let her go
It'll be alright"
So I still look back at all the messages you'd sent
And I know it wasn't right, but it was [censored] with my head
And everything deleted like the past, it was gone
And when I touched your face, I could tell you're moving on
But it's not the fact that you kissed him yesterday
It's the feeling of betrayal, that I just can't seem to shake
And everything I know tells me that I should walk away
But I just want to stay
And my friend said
"I know you love her, but it's over, mate
It doesn't matter, put the phone away
It's never easy to walk away, let her go
It'll be okay
It's gonna hurt for a bit of time
So bottoms up, let's forget tonight
You'll find another and you'll be just fine
Let her go"
But nothing heals the past like time
And they can't steal
The love you're born to find
But nothing heals the past like time
And they can't steal
The love you're born to find
"I know you love her, but it's over, mate
It doesn't matter, put the phone away
It's never easy to walk away, let her go
It'll be okay
It's gonna hurt for a bit of time
So bottoms up, let's forget tonight
You'll find another and you'll be just fine
Let her go"
It'll be alright
It'll be alright
It'll be alright
It'll be alright
It'll be alright

Last edited by Wanted1; 12/20/18 01:02 AM.

M: 34 W:34
D:7 D:6 S:3

M: 9.5 years T: 12

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Originally Posted by burned
Hi there. I'm younger, no kids, but your sitch sounds fairly similar to where mine was in May-July of this year. It was before I got here. I probably got here too late but you might have a better chance. Look through my threads to see what NOT to do, and stick to the advice you get here. Do it wholeheartedly and without delay, and you might be surprised at how things turn out.


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Originally Posted by LH19
Unfortunately your life is never going to be the same. The good news your actions will determine whether your life will be better or worse. We are here for you.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
DB'ing is about fighting for your M by not fighting. By focusing on yourself and giving your spouse time and space. Well guess what happens if you DB properly? Eventually you find your balls again and realize you have a lot of value as a person and you don't need to put up with crappy behavior from a crappy excuse for a wife. Eventually you realize that beautiful, loving, tender, caring woman you married has been abducted and you're trying to recon with some hateful, angry, vengeful, remorseless, adulterous creature inhabiting her old shell. Most LBS's end up getting an opportunity to recon, but it comes so far down the road that they've moved on to the point that they no longer want that person in their life. LBS's all come here thinking they are powerless, but they are in fact masters of their own destiny, even eventually making the final decision to recon or not. They just don't know it yet.




The ones that recon (and it is way more than 10%) are mostly model DBers that have put in a TON of work. And then once they recon they continue to work their tails off. It's not just luck that gets them there, and it sure as hell isn't coming to the DB boards and ignoring all advice while doing all the wrong things because they think their sitch is different or they know better.


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Originally Posted by burned
My advice, don't put too much thought into what you SHOULD do. But listen to what you SHOULDN'T do. Memorize Sandi's rules, literally.

ACTIONS, not words. An ultimatum is just words. Weak, needy. ACTIONS speak louder. You don't say "I'm leaving if you don't change." You just do an about-face, forward march. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

You do it by GAL, primarily. You do it by 180s. You do it by the way you "carry" yourself. Suddenly you feel great because you joined a gym and pounded the spit out of a punching bag. You get home, W says "blah blah blah I'm on my way to the cabin with my girls" and you think to yourself, "Meh, have fun. Only I know how to really please you, but suit yourself." Then you walk to the freezer and start eating the ice cream right out of the tub.




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Originally Posted by DC421
But some of the responses make me feel like some are suggesting that I should deliver an ultimatum? Or simply just walk away?
Originally Posted by SoTorn
Its not an ultimatum. Its a boundary. Its not a boundary for your WW, its for you. Go read the boundaries thread. You don't need to repeat your boundaries over and over to your WW. Once is enough.

Your detachment from them is their consequence for their behavior.

You have to decide when you are done. If you are a model DB and WW keeps on going forever and ever, you have to decide when you have had enough. The final act of LRT is you ending your MR. That is when have made significant changes in yourself, you can recognize these changes and have consistently kept them up and nothing has changed between you and your WW.

I think a lot of people give themselves about a year. I think thats about accurate.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Just relax, breathe. Have a canned response or two ready for W, like "I'll think about that and let you know". And don't get sucked in. Enjoy life my friend!


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You don't push the process yourself but you don't interfere either. If she asks you for info then provide it. If she gives you paperwork for review then review it and respond. Go with the flow. Specifically you said she asked you for finances, if that is something only you can provide then provide it.


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Originally Posted by LH19
One of the best quotes I ever read on this board this board is the only difference between the WAW and LBS is timing. Meaning in essence both spouses were essentially unhappy. The WAW drops the bomb and the LBS feels rejected, "rejection breeds obsession" and the LBS is magically in love again. It is more about the destabilization of your life as you knew it being flipped upside down.

IMO true reconciliations that will last happen when both parties go on their separate paths on their own journeys and their paths somehow cross again way down the road. That's the reason I always say time and space to truly figure out what you want is the only way that these situations work out long-term.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
OK so several people said not to snoop. The thing about snooping is when you snoop you get little snippets of info that can be hard to interpret. For example, maybe OM texts your W and says "I'm sorry for everything, I really want to see you again" and she replies "stop it, I never want to hear from you again and I am blocking your number." You look on your phone log and see she sent a message to OM. You think she's contacting him again, and you lay awake at night spinning a thousand different scenarios on why she contacted him, what she said, etc. You don't have the whole picture so snooping just gives you little pieces you don't know what to make of.

That said, when your spouse has been engaging in an affair and comes clean and says they're back in the M, they've blown all trust that you may have had and it is on THEM to rebuild that trust. How do they do that? 100% transparency on phone, email, social media, etc. First of all if your spouse admits to an affair you should absolutely not dismiss it, welcome them back with open arms and pretend it never happened. Because if you do, I guarantee it will happen again and probably soon. You should lay down boundaries. NO weekend outings without your consent, NO sneaking off for 4 hours to go shopping or whatever, NO secret phone texting. When I say 100% transparency on phone and such, I mean she gives you all her passwords and if you ask to see her phone she hands it over for your review. Is that snooping? No, it is her being on probation for violating a very basic agreement in a marriage, that you will not F around on your spouse.

So where do you stand? Your W admits to an A, and says she wants to work on the M. Well what work has she done? NONE AT ALL. Here's my advice to you- sit down with her and tell her that you've given it a lot of thought, that you no longer trust her, and that if she wants to work on things like she says, then she needs to start by handing over her phone so you can see what she's been up to (and hold your hand out for it). If she gets mad and refuses, well that tells you how "committed" she is to working on things, right? And you know where you stand and can start treating her like the WAS she is. If she hands it over, then take it and go through her texts and FB messages and such. That is the MINIMUM she should be willing to do to regain your trust.

Edit to add- many spouses who take back a cheater have also insisted the cheater send a message to the OP telling them they want no contact with them ever again, and then delete their contact info and block them on social media, and do it all in the presence of the cheated-on spouse. If this sounds like it would embarrass her, well yeah, shame is part of what a cheater needs to suffer as a consequence of their actions. You can't treat cheating lightly.


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Originally Posted by Joe2017
I'm not Joe2017 anymore. I'm Joe2019 now, and what I want in a woman is much different.

I'm going to do some journaling now since I have so much on my mind:

I know I have insecurities regarding my XW. I'm dealing with them as best I can, the two of us have talked about this. I told her that I am coming from a place of betrayal, and she has a lot of work to do to rebuild trust. She understands and she said she will never stop giving me everything I ask for. It's too early to tell if she will continue this, but in all our years of M I can't remember her committed to anything with this much conviction.

DB is a wonderful gift. I am now able to have R talks with XW and pour out my feelings without being vulnerable or weak. I can actually express my emotions from a place of strength. It's an amazing thing.

She tells me every day that she loves me and that she F'd up her life and our family. She is continually repentant and sometimes I am so blunt in response that she ends up crying. She still picks herself up, tells me that she deserved what I said, and asks me what I need from her. She tells me she was a horrible person, she still is a horrible person, and she is trying to be better because it's what I deserve. I tell her good because I'm a very demanding man now.

There is a role reversal here. I have more WAS in me now than LBS. I don't chase after anything. Sometimes I don't even text or call her. I am a bit of a prick, but not abusive or mean. I just know I can take this or leave this. Certainly, leaving this would be much easier. I think she is much more humble. She shows me great respect now, even more than when we first got married. She constantly praises me and tries to gain my approval. Is she in pursuit? Huh, interesting.

However, in all of our intense interactions over the past couple weeks I really do see something different. Something I haven't seen before even in our first relationship. I'm having a hard time putting my finger on it, but the closest word I can use to describe it is subservient.



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Originally Posted by pain18
She does not give a damn about your feelings. Anything that gives off the impression otherwise should ALWAYS be a red flag and a hidden motive behind it. ALWAYS.



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Originally Posted by pain18
It was only after I started the DB process that I realized not only the contributions I made that lead to this, but also the deep-rooted causes of why I was who I was. I would have never addressed my NGS if it was not pointed out to me. I would not have started the process of finding my balls. And I certainly would not have made such strong bonds with a bunch of folks from all walks of life here. This board is my primary source of support.


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Originally Posted by Jtayl71
It is hard being back in my hometown for the holidays without her and having everyone asking where she is. I just put a smile on and say shes not going to be able to make it this year. My family and their close friends know the truth.


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Originally Posted by Mach1
I'm pretty sure that I told you a year ago, that the old relationship is dead at the bomb, and anything anew would have to begin again from the ashes....Piecing is hard dude, one of the hardest things you will ever do. Many people have come through here, outlasted the crisis, and not made it through the piecing process....

How much of your feelings are you actually communicating? IF......you are truly piecing, and both have committed to the relationship, then it wouldn't be viewed as a "temp check" at that point. It wouldn't be viewed as initiating a relationship talk. It would be viewed as simply having a conversation about your future together.

If something isn't working for you, then find out why, and communicate that to her...


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Originally Posted by LH19
Think about these two lesser the evil situations and let me know your answer.

Situation #1. Your W puts your children first before her PERCEIVED happiness and ends her A and calls off the divorced. You stay married for the sake of the kids but she never becomes fully committed to you again because she believes there is something better out there. You spend the next 15 years wondering if she files again after your youngest is out of the house.

Situation #2. She continues with D and continues relationship with OM. You take time to heal and continue to better yourself. After the dust settles and your emotions start to stabilize you start to realize that your ex had many flaws that you didn't see. Once healed maybe you start another relationship with a woman who is way better then your ex in all aspects of life. She likes to work through problems not run from them. Maybe your ex comes to her senses and wants to reconcile and will do anything to EARN another chance with you.

I don't know about you but I would take option 2 everyday and twice on Sundays. Yes it's a risk that she doesn't come back , but she has to choose to be with you for it to work out long-term.


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Originally Posted by Again18
The OM is a distraction to your WW and as long as she sees him as a viable option she will continue to justify her actions and she has to demonize you in order to justify her selfish actions. She's justifying to herself that she has the better option in the OM. The thing to remember is that she hasn't dropped you in her mind she is thinking about you probably more than the OM. She tries to bait you into arguments, make you mad, lose your temper, or even a powerful one get you to make controlling acts and snooping would be one of those trying to keep control. You may not see your actions as controlling but she will take just about any action as controlling and she will use that in her mind to justify her actions. She's a different person because she has to be in order to justify why her actions are okay. The only way to counter that is detachment.

She will bait you so when she calls and says we have to make a decision on this you need to decide if it's a fight you are willing to fight. The kids are paying a price for her selfish actions. But less contact with her can only mean less conflict. She calls don't answer at first. If she texts you don't be afraid to text back busy I'll get in touch with you later. And then when you do. She will probably bring something up that really in the grand scheme of things is not at all important and you need to treat it as such. Simple okay to pissy demands doesn't mean you have to follow through just say ok, and then is that all because I have to get ready for something. No details and please don't ask her what she's been up to or doing? Don't snoop let her be free, because freedom will make her wonder if you care and the little signs you will notice will be calls and text of hey how you doing? What of you been up to? Things like that. When that happens don't respond with details come back here and ask for advice because those are signs but you wont' want to rush when you see them. It's a whole different dating game and you will need advice from people on here who have been through it before yo mess it up because it's a fragile time. But you really right now need to let go. It's the only chance of possibly getting your old wife back.


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When Piecing:
Originally Posted by joejoe1
What also helped was me being direct and open about my feelings without blaming my W.

For example. The A and thoughts of the OM makes me so mad. Instead of your affair and what you did with OM makes me so angry. The first statement is all about how I feel and not about what my W did to me.

Another example. I really want you to call me when you are out because it makes me feel safe and that helps me with trust for our M. Instead of, when you go out you need to call me because I'm having a hard time trusting you. The first is about what you need and less about how you feel about her.


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Originally Posted by Joe2017


SO ANYHOW!!! I see you are trying to analyze your STBXHís behavior. Well, let me save you a bunch of time. A) IT DONíT MATTER. B) YOU CANíT UNDERSTAND IT.

Part A is easy enough. Itís the past. The future matters. The present is where you shape your future. Donít waste your present dwelling on the past; use the present to plan your improved future. See? EASY. (Lol)

Part B is the weird stuff. All waywards and walkaways exhibit the same general behavior. You get the ILYBINILWY crap. You get the wild out-of-character behavior. You get the God-awful affair partners. You get the gaslighting and the blame shifting. You get the history rewriting. Itís all part of the same playbook. None of it makes sense... And at least in my sitch, Iíve come to find out that it didnít make sense to my XW either.

She asked me recently why she doesnít remember the same things I remember or our kids remember. She said itís all fuzzy to her. She doesnít remember A LOT, and some of the things she remembers is wildly different than reality. She canít explain why she left me for an absolute moron who was 10 years older with no job and ED. She doesnít remember any gaslighting at all. She doesnít remember the truly heartfelt conversation we had on the last night that I ever spent in my own home before I moved out and the OM moved in. But she does remember the absolutely hateful verbiage she used to insult me. She remembers trying her best to rob me of my masculinity and self-esteem using the most rancid behavior known to humanity. She remembers telling her son that he could not call me Dad anymore. She just canít explain why she did it. Any of it.

Donít get me wrong... waywards know what theyíre doing. They can be calculated, they can be manipulative, they can be cunning... but it is ALL within the context of their condition. They will fit the Wayward Playbook, which is your survival guide. You will be able to understand that you CANíT understand why they are doing what they do. You will know that you can only believe 1% of what they say. That they donít really care about you IN THIS MOMENT. They are narcissists, through and through. They werenít always like that, but they are now and they may stay that way for a long long time.

My XW lived in the fog the entire time, for an entire YEAR... Until reality kung fu kicked her in the throat and knocked her flat on her ass. Thatís when she finally gave me a real apology. She had apologized many times before, but they werenít asking for forgiveness. They were those empty selfish apologies that are ego-based to make themselves feel better about the horrors that they have incurred. I told myself Iíd never talk to her again until I got a real apology asking for forgiveness regardless of the outcome. You know, a REAL apology. She finally admitted to everything and more. And I felt it was genuine because the truth she unwrapped for me was dirty, nasty, disgusting, and overwhemingly immoral. Embarrassing doesnít even do it justice.

So I wrote all that to let you know that if you are confused about your Hís behavior, itís normal. They donít make sense. If you canít understand why he did what he did, it is because youíre an intelligent and rational person. Waywards are not rational except in their own minds. Donít be shocked if your H becomes like an arch nemesis for a while. Just do not reciprocate. Waywardness is almost like a mental disorder. It has symptoms and observable common behavior traits. You donít engage a schizophrenic within their own delusional world. You approach them from a rational point of view based in reality.

Also, it takes a long time to feel alive again. It can be lonely, even with tons of friends and family around. Thatís normal. You are going to be OK. Keep journaling. Keep working on GAL and 180ís. Check with churches in your area for free group divorce counseling, even if you arenít religious. You will find out that there are others in the same boat that have the same feelings and they are OLDER than you, they are YOUNGER, they are from other cultures, they are parents, they are single. Divorce hits 30% of America. You need to use all of the tools at your disposal to keep your boat right-side-up so you can navigate these rapids. (Sorry, I saw Bird Box the other day.) You will roller coaster, you will get hit with waves of grief. You will take two steps forward and one back. Everyone here has gone through this.

It will be alright. It really will.


1/6/18-BD OM1
2/18-W meets OM2
4/18-W intros D4 to OM2
5/18-ďRomance ends"
7/18-DB start
7/18-IHS Ends
4/19-WW moves out
3/21-D filed

Formerly pain18

Rise.

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Originally Posted by pain18
I stopped praying for WW to come back to our lives and am now grateful for being by my side and helping me make the progress I am making as well as asking for him to continue to guide me and have me come out being the following persons:

- A better man
- A better father
- A better brother
- A better friend
- A better employee
- A better boyfriend
- A better husband

For my WW, I just ask that she finds peace and happiness.

Pray for strength. Pray for relief. Pray for an end to this.


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Originally Posted by Yail
Can we change the framework? Instead of pursue = bad, can it be space = good? Your W with her actions has requested space. Her actions were not okay, but I think we can agree the message is clear. Can you think of this as giving your W something she has asked for? Giving her space?

But she's also changing now, and going through her own process. So let her learn about herself. It's hard to be introspective when you're in a R. Think about all the growing we are doing here that we DIDN'T do (that we should have done) when in R. It took the space from the R for us to turn inward.

What if you considered this to be some very strange 3-year "break". And in those 3 years, yes, you may go through the logistics of D. And you should mourn, absolutely. And pick yourself up and keep going, as you have been doing.

But what if in 2022 you happened to run into W. You had spent the last 3 years dating some awesome people, doing some awesome things. Maybe you're in a R, maybe not. But the *chance* of reconnecting is there. Not even necessarily for a new M, but maybe as friends. Maybe you'll get some serendipitous closure. Maybe you just learn about what's new in her life, and share what's new in yours.

The chance for reconnection WAY down the road is hopeful to me. I'm not banking on it. But I DO know my W, and I do know that if we each truly addressed our issues we would potentially be a very good fit once again. So in your own knowledge of your W, just remember that it happened once. It could happen again.

We don't know. The future is unreadable, and in that - I find hope.



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Originally Posted by Joe2017
The minute your spouse decides to have an A, it means you can't be a part of their life anymore (with the exception of children and business.)

You do NOT allow cake eating. You are better than that. Don't allow yourself to be used and abused that way. If your WS has decided they want to be with OP, then that is THEIR NEW PERSON.

XW asked me for help a few times during our D that was neither business nor kids. One time she came home and thought the house may have been burglarized because the back door was wide open. She wanted me to come and check the house for intruders. I told her to ask her new man for help with that, because that's his job now. Yeah, she lost her sht over the phone and screamed at me about it. Whatever! I hung up. She could have asked OM or even called the cops. Leave me alone.

On several occasions I had to tell her that we are not friends. I am either your husband or I am not, but I am NEVER going to be in your friend zone,
EVER. EV. ER.

Also, doing sht for them is not "fighting" for them because they will continue the A no matter what you do for them!!!! They want their cake and they want to eat it too! Every time!


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Originally Posted by Mach1
As I read this, it makes me wonder if YOU were ready for such a quick turnaround.

Whether or not you really wanted this..

Were ready if it did happen.

You have had 2 start and stops in the past few years that have turned around quickly.

And I wonder if either of you really put the "work" in, to understand what being in a relationship really, deeply means.

To some extent, I saw you start it, however...

Just when your "good stuff" was beginning to happen, here she is again, wanting a relationship that she really has no idea how to facilitate.

You were shell shocked both times and were just beginning to find out who you were without all of the clutter (at least this time) when she started pursuing you.

So here you were, willing to accept what she was asking because it seemed right in the moment. It didn't cause you to change much except your 180's and little things that didn't "rock your world" relationship wise.

You were willing to sell yourself, just be able to say that you were still married...

When a person goes through a situation like this, they grow in areas that are light years ahead of the WAS when they return.

With you ??

I almost feel that is was work interrupted...maybe twice, if you went through this process the first time...



If I were to ask you what "love" meant to you, what would your answer be ???

If I were to ask you what you the difference is between "love" and "obligation" was, what would you say ???

If I were to ask you what reconciliation looked like, what would your answer be ???

If I were to ask you how will you know when you get there ??

How do you stay there ??

If I were to ask you, what defines Steve as a man , what would you say ??



And I know the standard internet versions of the answers. I want your answer, what you want, need, seek that is relevant to your thoughts , goals, morals....

What you want to teach your daughter....

Cause if you don't know the answers to the hard questions, you will never get through the "find out why" phase....




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Originally Posted by DC421
I haven't set the MBR boundary yet...although she hasn't slept in our bed for the past few night anyway. I plan to set that boundary and move her stuff out of MBR tonight or tomorrow, depending on work schedule.

Quote
My plan is to be as brief as possible when telling her. Something as such... "when this all started a few months ago, you asked for time and space. I have given you that. Since then, you have made no meaningful effort to end your A...and shown no indication that you are interested in working on our marriage...even though I have made it clear that I am willing to do so. So, now it's me that needs time and space. I can no longer share a bed with you since you continue to see/contact OM. I will move your things out of the room and bathroom and I ask you to respect my space going forward." Thoughts on this plan/statement?? Too much talking? Other advice?
Originally Posted by LH19
"W we both know why I removed your stuff from the MB."

Direct and to the point. Words don't mean $hit right now. Only actions do.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
You say this only after she asks. Do it confidently, matter of fact, holding eye contact, wait for her to break eye contact first. Then shut up and listen. Let her vent whatever....

At some point this "Sorry you feel that way" or something similar may be appropriate.


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Originally Posted by Vapo
You cannot attract quality people in your life when you are in the state you are in. Broken attracts broken....You guys are REALLY broken... And you do not even realize it.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Most WAS's consider themselves divorced at BD and free to do whatever they want when it comes to pursuing others. I think it's probably upsetting you because you were still clinging to the notion that maybe somewhere down deep she still loves you and wants to be with you and that this is all just a bad dream that'll wash away with the morning light. But the reality is she is 100% done and pursuing her fantasy "perfect" life without you. It hurts but now you know and can live your life accordingly. Again I'll just remind you that this is how she feels right now, at this one particular moment in time. That doesn't mean she won't have a change of heart later, chances are she will. But it's going to be way down the road.


H: 35 W: 33
M: 11 T: 13

4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1")
6/23/18: I moved out
8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
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Originally Posted by Joe2017
About 6 months after the D was final I started getting the plan b temp checks. She was trying to see if I was an option. These coincided with times in which she was realizing that OM was a mistake. One time it was when she decided to cheat on OM to try and force him out of her life. Can you imagine what hell it would have caused me if I had fallen for that????!!? I also ignored all of these plan b checks (the toaster oven story was a plan b temp check).

I never responded until she sent me an apology, 100% unsolicited, with no guarantee that I would accept the apology. Seriously, I ignored her for nearly an entire year. An "I'm sorry." by itself was not going to cut it.

So are temp checks good? They're not good or bad. You just have to know what they are and what the intent behind them is, as well as how you should respond (or not).


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Originally Posted by Joe2017
The "I just wanna talk" messages came to me aplenty. At first I fell for it. It never ended well, which led to my strict NC boundaries. She would continue to send me the "Can I have one minute?" Or "It's important, it will just take a moment" messages for a while.

I didn't respond to those because:

A) If it's THAT important, put it in the message.
B) If it will only take a minute, put it in the message.

I know you miss him, but he's not the same person anymore. And TBH, when this is all over you won't be the same person anymore either. You'll be a smarter, wiser, stronger, and more confident version of you.


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Originally Posted by paco123
My heart goes out to you. In general terms, I am in a similar situation and this is the most tortuous, most painful emotional place I have ever been in. I can only share the ways I try to cope with being in this place.

(1) Interior Life. I have returned to the beliefs and practices of the interior life I had long ignored. If you have such a life, whether or not orthodox (i.e. conforming to a formal, organized system of beliefs), you may want to visit or revisit it. I can honestly say this is the only thing that has kept me alive. (Yes, I mean this literally.)

(2) Humble Responsibility. I accept responsibility for my failures and mistakes as a parent and spouse, but I also recognize these are not any more egregious than the next person's. No physical or emotional abuse; no drug or gambling habits; no extramarital betrayals. Just plain vanilla conflicts typifying any long-term, intimate relationship.

(3) Compassionate Awareness. Whatever my mistakes in (2), I also recognize Walking Away is NEVER emotionally mature behavior. It took several months, but my W eventually acknowledged she walked away in panic. Whatever emotional reality she was in at the time (e.g. her fear I was going to hurt her), she now realizes it was not based on reality. But it was for her to come to this realization; I neither pushed it nor did I try to make her feel bad about it.

(4) Love at a Distance. This is hardest of all, made possible for me only through (1). Given my understanding of the scale of my mistakes in (2) and the realities of amygdala hijack in (3), I recognize my W has to work out for herself if she wants to save the marriage. I've made it clear that while I accept partial responsibility for the state of M, responsibility for ending M (if it comes to this) is solely hers. So I am in a constant mode of struggle to find the patience, discipline, and trust to leave her free in her journey of self-discovery.

If even 0.001% of all this helps you, I am glad.



"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Let's say you worked for me and I fired you last year. Then let's say I called you in a huff and said "What the hell man, yesterday was boss's day and you didn't get me anything? No card, nothing??? And here I was thinking about giving you your job back, but now, I don't know." How would you respond to that? This is no different, she fired you from your job as H. Why do you think you should be doing husbandly things for her?



"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Please start a new thread and link the two threads together. Thanks!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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