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Originally Posted by sjohns6

I can't help think about the fact that although I've had them most of the time the last 6 weeks, they have never asked to go to Ws house. Not once. They seem fine being there as in they have most of the comforts there that they have at my house (home), but they have never ASKED to go there. I also wonder about W. I of course can not mind read (nor do I want to see whats really going on up there), but she did not seem bothered at all about them wanting to come home a day early. I keep thinking that although she is a little laxed in her responsibilities as a mom, that she is still more or less keeping up mostly. Not super mom like she was, but still a good mom. The fact that the kids ask to come home and she seems fine with it seems to illustrate otherwise to me...even if at surface it all looks kind of normal. Well, as normal as you can get in this kind of situation anyways.



Hey buddy...

Just remember that YOU are their home...

Not where....

Who...

And that who, is you...

Keep doing things for you.

It gets easier over time...

Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt still, just gets easier....

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I love what Mach said here, that you are their home. How beautiful and how true. I think you would be a very good home for kids to have, they are so lucky to have you. And the one benefit of being apart is that they can see your light more clearly. With an in=house prodigal, it can be harder for the kids to understand the difference.


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Thank you guys for the support. Needed it again today.

DNJ, thanks for the advice. To clarify, W was actually trying to take a pepperoni off the piece that S was eating, and thats when I offered the pizza. So, I guess that isn't really much of a pursuit. And, yes...I did expect her to say no since she hasn't said yes in so long. I guess I shouldn't be having expectations. She did stay for dinner last night, but more about that in a minute...

Mach, thank you for that reminder. Home is with people, not a place. That is something that I need to continue saying to myself as I find it hard not to be jealous of the time she spends with the kids. I don't want them to get used to being at her house, but I know I need to in order to keep a healthy mind and stay strong...and to continue moving forward. I realize that I have a bit of a PTSD response to things still. I am not having all the triggers I had before, but I still have some to work through.

Gerda, thanks for stopping by with support. I love hearing from you. I try really hard to be the lighthouse...whats hard is keeping that light bright for the world to see. Sometimes I feel like it goes a bit dim with my mood. Yeah, I think the kids do see a big difference between us. Check out what happened this weekend...

So, kids are supposed to be with W in NY for a family reunion. I have not been looking forward to it as it means over a week without the kids AND this is the first family reunion with her family that I wouldn't be at. She came to pick up the kids Thursday night for a Friday morning departure. On Friday morning I text the kids that I love them and to have a good time. After a little bit, they each texted me back sounding pretty frustrated. Apparently they showed up at the airport at 7am for an 8:30 flight, but it turns out she had purchased 8:30PM flights so they were VERY early. W started trying to get an earlier flight so as not to have to wait all day. She got them on standby for a 10:00, but it was too full. She got new tickets for an 11:00, but it got cancelled for a 12:30. This happens every hour until 4. Then their 4:00 got postponed for a 5 with a 90% chance of cancellation. W decides to quit for the day and to just fly out Saturday morning instead. They then get up Saturday morning and go to the airport, but they are too late for the flight and there aren't any more for the day (that they can get). So, W decides never mind on the trip and they go home. I know all this cause D was texting me throughout the day. None of that would have ever happened if I were there and I think they all know that. I am a planner. I make lists and itineraries. Not that I print stuff out and hand it out to everyone, I am just prepared all the time. Its my nature. I don't even know how W would have purchased PM tickets a month in advance without realizing it until at the airport ready to go.

So, I made gumbo (finally, kept putting it off) and the kids wanted to come over and have some. When W is filling me in on what happened with the flights I mention the gumbo if she wants to join for dinner. She explains that the kids really wanted to so they would come. I hadn't yet made rice so she offered and brought some over. The next part is whats weird to me. Not a thing that happened, but how I felt. I try to be upbeat (and I feel upbeat), but I really don't have much to say to her. I'd like to start conversations and whatnot, but it just seems that there is this big elephant in the room. How do I have normal conversations with her? She has removed herself from my life and barely talks to me. Her explaining her flight issues was the most we've talked in weeks. I feel like I don't know her anymore and I'm just not sure if I want to try and be just friendly with casual conversations with her. If she were my wife (we're still married for now, I just mean how she used to be) then there would maybe be some incentive to want to be friendly again, but I'm not even sure if I want to be friends with this person posing as her. I mean the evening was fine but felt awkward. I feel the gap between us widening...now I don't feel much of a connection to her at all and that makes me sad. Could there be a way back from this?

So, D wanted to stay the night so W took son back to her house with plans to pick up D this morning. In hanging out with D I find out that W is planning to drive them to Austin for a swim type of resort until Tuesday. She neither told me about this nor invited me. D and watched shows and fell asleep. Woke up this morning and had pancakes and coffee while watching her favorite animes. W came and picked her up and S didn't even get out of the car. I think W woke him up and he got in the car so was tired, but I have to admit that it was hard that he didn't even get out of the car. I know this was not personal, but this whole thing has me feeling vulnerable. I do my best to show NOTHING but the happy side of me. So, now they are in Austin having a fun family outing. W did say she was trying to do something fun for them since they had to miss the NY trip, and I get that.

But, never the less, I'm still a little down over here wondering how my life came to this. I know I'm a good man and I know that I'm a catch. She has downgraded herself with all the decisions she's made in the last 2 years so its hard to feel rejected by someone who has made themselves less than you. I don't say that to put myself on a pedastool or anything, but I am proud of the man that I am and I'm proud of the decisions I've made throughout all this. I have women flirt with me all the time. It doesn't mean anything to me other than to help me know that this really has nothing to do with me, but its still hard not to take everything so personal. I mean, its the most personal thing a person can do to you...even if it isn't because of anything I've done.

Thanks...I needed to get all that out!


Me: 45 yrs
W: 43 yrs
Together: 20 yrs
Married: 15 yrs
Son: 19 yrs
Daughter: 18 yrs
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sjohn, just a quick note as I checked on your thread and am sure you are hurting and like me desperately looking for replies! : )

What a story! Wow! They really do get confused. I would be terrified to let my kids go on a plane with H actually. Sounds like your W is really a wreck and that your kids were so miserable, my heart was breaking for them going through all that on top of everything else. I know it will make them strong and patient but gosh does it hurt.

Your last paragraph, if you read it on any of our threads, would elicit a response from a really nice guy named sjohn reminding us that it has NOTHING TO DO WITH US, and that the more you think about what a great guy you are and how it makes no sense, the farther you will get from accepting that it isn't you and there's nothing you can do. I have the exact same spirals as you do but when I see it on your thread, I'm thinking, poor you, because you are still allowing your mind to go there.

Just today I had to explain to a super on my block that my H was a "little crazy" right now because I asked the super if he knew a guy to help me fix something and he kept saying, "I don't understand, where is your husband, what is he doing, why doesn't he help you?" and then had to sit for a long diatribe in response to my vague reply that my H is "doing his own thing for some years now but still lives with us," The super was going on and on about how he doesn't get it, about what a nice woman I am, and beautiful (I am not beautiful but I look very young) and have wonderful kids and what is he doing, is he crazy?" And in those moments I just have to keep thinking of God and how I could be the most perfect woman in the world and God still wants to refine me, and if he is allowing this, he is using it to make me into the woman I am supposed to be.

I had CANCER and it didn't wake my H up. He still hates me, still blames me. Now it's all about money, I forget what it was before, mostly accusations of emasculation. Like you said, there were grains of truth. But the point is, we didn't break it, we can't fix it, it's not about us but they will make it about us. We can fix ourselves and keep walking in the light. I realized from the few times my H was himself again that I don't have to worry about wanting to be friends with who he is now. If/when he wakes up, he will be someone I will want to be friends with again. The unconditional love I show now is to wait, not to love who he is now; even if I have to be kind to him, it is the same as being kind to an enemy.

ack, late for church!


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Thank you Gerda. That helps! You are right that if I stay in that line of thinking that its hard to pull away and move forward. Today was just a trigger day for me so I think I'll continue to get better...I have been on all the days I'm not having to deal with some kind of fallout, which seems to lessen over time.

and...lol, I'm more worried about her driving the kids to Austin than getting on a plane. At least on a plane the pilot is flying. Austin is a 3 hour drive away...and I think where they are going is slightly further than Austin. Her driving has always made me nervous on the best of days and the kids make fun of her driving all the time. They experience it more than I ever have because when we are together I have always been the one to drive. She THINKS she is a good driver, but not many people agree with her.


Me: 45 yrs
W: 43 yrs
Together: 20 yrs
Married: 15 yrs
Son: 19 yrs
Daughter: 18 yrs
BD: Jan 2017
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I think that one of the hardest things about all this is having to surrender our kids to this crazy person. I am not afraid he will hurt them but I am afraid of the lack of care and the selfishness. And yet we know, that's their parent, for good or bad, we have to allow them to have a full relationship with that parent even when it means we will be alone, missing them, not sure they are getting good care.


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Thats true Gerda...and its where I'm at right now. W is off with the kids having a good time without me. It has been a real struggle not to feel the victim. When she takes Ks off to have a good family time without me, its hard not to personalize it as recreating the family unit without me. I guess its what I am doing in her absence, but that was not my choice. I do it because its my only option. She chose this...

Having said that, I am actually feeling better today. I got pretty low over the last few days, but last night I was finally able to pull myself out of it. In all this time, I have not seen a IC. Last year W and I had several sessions with a MC, but I never got a IC for myself. I have now reached out for one as I am finally admitting that I don't want to do this on my own and need some help working through some of it. I think it will be a healthy step for me. Not sure why I haven't before now...I think it was fear. I'm tired of being afraid and ready to get myself back. I need the light in my lighthouse to be strong enough to withstand all storms and I'm going to work on getting that started now while I'm at a moment of strength. That way I'll be more prepared for the next down day.


Me: 45 yrs
W: 43 yrs
Together: 20 yrs
Married: 15 yrs
Son: 19 yrs
Daughter: 18 yrs
BD: Jan 2017
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Been thinking a lot about letting go and why I am having such a hard time doing it. With W moved out I feel much better on the day to day, but just the idea of interaction with W triggers me. DNJ talked on his thread about anger and his lack of it and it really spoke to me as I haven't gotten angry either. I wonder if being angry might make it easier on me to let go. To not be triggered by interactions with her as much...or lack of interactions for that matter.

The kids were to come home and be with me yesterday. Throughout the day I could not help but think about how I would handle myself during the exchange of children. I have found that I look at every interaction with her as an opportunity to be my best self around her. Mostly that just means being up beat and not showing pain or anything when talking to her. Sometimes this is easy and other times its work. After work I went home and when I got there, the kids were already there and W had left already. She had dropped them off minutes before and had not even gotten out of the car. She did not call or text to say that she was on her way, nor did she call or text to let me know that she dropped them off. The kids are fine and don't really need me to be there, but just the lack of common courtesy with communication is difficult to deal with. Monstering is hard of course to deal with, but its an obvious thing that is easy to realize that is not healthy. The simple lack of "hey I just dropped the kids off" is more subtle and still triggers me. I'm not even sure why. I think its because that kind of communication is something that normal people have. I would have that kind of communication with anyone, not just W. I guess it just shows me that despite what W had said before moving (that she would like to still be friends), that she doesn't even want to really be friends either. I of course don't just want to be just friends anyways, but that at least would be a start to something. We aren't even there yet. I know not to believe what she says or does, but I still find myself getting caught up in it, even though she isn't around anymore. We went from daily communications for 20 years to us not talking for days. At this point I have not spoken to her since Sunday morning, and that was just when she was picking up D and only for a few minutes. I'm not even sure why I still want to talk to her. I guess I'm still a little bit addicted to my relationship with her. I guess I am detoxing right now.

Been thinking that I might try something. I've read people talk here about putting your feelings and relationship in a "box" and tucking it away for later. Something that can be accessed again when the time is right. A metaphor for detaching if you will. To help myself, I think I will try this in a more literal sense. I'm going to make a list of all the things that I love about W. I'll write a quick timeline of our relationship with milestones at all the places in our relationship that help define my love for W. I'll gather pictures of the 2 of us over the years where we are together and happy...kissing and holding hands. I'll gather pictures of the family together when we were at our happiest. I'll gather a few home videos that illustrate the same and put them on a USB drive. I might even hand write a loving letter to W. Then I will gather all of these things and put them in an actual box. I think I'll go buy a nice one, like a treasure chest. I will take this box and tuck it away somewhere, like a time capsule, to be opened at a future date. I get worried that while going through this situation, that after some time I will lose all desire to want to be with W and will eventually forget what the love between us feels like. I think it keeps me from fully dropping the rope/GAL, moving on, etc. Maybe if I actually create this box, that I can let go comfortably knowing that I have the box tucked away to remind me if I ever forget. Have you guys ever watched the TV show House? There is an episode where there is a man that lost his hand. The man had the problem that he had the sensation that his missing hand had a clenched fist and he could not release it. House (the doctor) built a box with a mirror in it and had the man put both hands in. The mirror created the illusion that both hands were there. He had the man make a first, and then let it go while he watched. Seeing that gave the ma the release of that sensation, even though it was all in his head anyways. I am hoping that building the box and filling ti with these things will help me in a similar way.

Anyways, hope you are all doing well. I'm trying to do the same.


Me: 45 yrs
W: 43 yrs
Together: 20 yrs
Married: 15 yrs
Son: 19 yrs
Daughter: 18 yrs
BD: Jan 2017
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sjohn, please remember how you feel when you do fun stuff with the kids. It's awesome and wonderful but you feel a huge hole there. She feels like that times a thousand because the hole is going all the way through down to the bottom of her soul. She thinks you are the cause of the hole and can't figure out why it's still there even when she is doing fun stuff with the kids. She will keep covering up the hole, but I assure you that she is not having a perfectly awesome family time with them without you. It's like your man without the hand. And as a woman, let me double assure you that it is awful to be without a man when you are off with family. There is a feeling we women get when a man is doing simple things -- driving or pumping the gas or when you can put your hand on his arm in the front seat or even when he helps get the kids to stop being bratty in the back seat -- there is no way to replace that feeling of protection and comfort that only a man's presence can provide. There is also the feeling we get taking out the snacks we made and our man enjoying exactly the thing we knew he would like. And even if she tries to stick another man in there, it will feel weird, like a fake hand. You are the only one who can fit in that spot, even if she refuses to admit that now, later, forever.

Also I wanted to say that your two literary references -- to the film, about beauty, and to this one, about the hand, were very touching and allowed us to see what a deep thinker you are, and how much you feel things creatively. That is a rare trait and I want to tell you it is a wonderful thing about you!

And then you really took it over the top with your box idea. It is an amazing idea, a beautiful idea, a creative idea. Do it for sure! I would also put in the box a list of your expectations of her and your marriage so that you can let those go too. I did that once in the beginning and i found it recently. Cried my head off but was happy to see how many of them I really had let go now, many years later.

I keep a little envelope of my H's old letters. We used to just give each other letters at gift times because I prefer that and we never had much money. I read them a lot in the first years, then it became too painful, now i look at them and it seems impossible. But last year for our anniversary, I color copied a particularly amazing one that had brought me a lot of comfort over the years (because it talked about waiting for the last word on our love, the truest and most beautiful word) and gave it to him as a card. I didn't want to give him the original for obvious reasons. He never said a word or acknowledged our anniversary but I was happy I did it.

Maybe one day you will even be able to take the box out with W. I know we have to let go of that expectation but I will still pray that for you while you let those things go into the box. I know that's what happened for Charlyne, from Rejoice, and how it blew her husband's mind to read all her journals from while he was gone and to see that she was praying for him and loving him no matter what he did. I also always have an assignment with my students, they have to write a letter to themselves, a year from today. And I always mail them a year later -- it's very powerful to write it and then to receive it a year later. Anyway, the point is for you to do it for you, it is an act of love and hope and also a way to heal. Let us know how it goes.

Last edited by Gerda; 08/02/18 07:41 PM.

I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Gerda, thank you so much for the insight from a woman's perspective. My head starts to spin sometimes and it seems in the moment that I am not even an afterthought in her mind. I find that so hard to consider since we have been together for 20 years...and I can't STOP thinking about her. How could she drop me so easily? I really appreciate hearing about the hole she must feel too and the things that she must miss at some point as well. The thought doesn't change my situation, but it does help my mind settle down a little...and I need all the help I can get in that regard. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And to that point, I think you might be right...I am a deep thinker. I analyze everything and consider things from as many aspects as possible and don't let up until I think I have things figured out. Because of that, MLC drives me crazy. There isn't a rationale I can think through to make sense of everything outside of the script they use and how it is the same for all, even if it plays out differently for each. I am glad to hear you say it is a rare and good quality because sometimes it feels like a curse. When I am happy and upbeat it helps be to reach out to people in a meaningful way and establish connections with people in a unique way. Wen I am feeling down it causes my negative thoughts to spiral downwards and I sometimes have a hard time letting go of it. I guess thats why when I am feeling up that I try to make conscious efforts to think of ways to help myself when I'm feeling down.

I'm really glad you liked the box idea. I have started making a list already and I think I have just the box to use. I had not thought about someday opening the box with W. If her and I reconcile someday, that might be a very special thing to do together. Hard to imagine now, but if we get to that point I think I would really enjoy that. The letter/card you sent to H sounds like a very touching sentiment. Its hard to do something special like that and for it to go unnoticed. I'm still glad you did it though. My mom went through a mini midlife crisis (hers was only about a year). My dad knew nothing about MLC and his only actions were of the pursuing type. She told me that he would send her poems and bible versus...and that annoyed her to no end at the time...but she kept them. After some time, as she started to come out of it, those things became special to her. So maybe, just maybe (not to build hope or expectations), some day your H will appreciate all the nice things you did for him during this time. Even if that never happens, it shows how caring and thoughtful YOU are in an unconditional way. You are also unique. I think thats why we find comfort with each other here...it takes a certain kind of person to want to stand by their marriage despite the circumstances we are faced with. I know that my W loved me all these years, but I don't think she would have stuck by me like I am for her. I may have more in common with you guys than I actually do with my W wink


Me: 45 yrs
W: 43 yrs
Together: 20 yrs
Married: 15 yrs
Son: 19 yrs
Daughter: 18 yrs
BD: Jan 2017
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