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Blu - Incredible words of wisdom - please keep posting! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!


M51 w50
T-20Yrs M-16Yrs
S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up
1 Awesum dog
BD 10/31/17
separate rooms 02/08/18
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Originally Posted by arsh18
Thanks Blu! This is extremely helpful as you are speaking from the other end of the tunnel where we all want to me. As I have mentioned before, the board is full of WWs and WAWs but fewer WAHs. So as a LBwife it is sometimes hard to come by advice that could transcend gender. I hope at some point you get to read my sitch and guide me. I dont remember if you were actually D or just S before R, but I had a few questions
- Other than missing the family and having the guilt about children, what brought him back?
- What did he miss in you as a spouse/as a partner that gave him second thoughts?
- I know you really need to drop the rope and move on, but what actually made him feel that you had moved on? No contact, LRT?
- Did you have any family together time with children and H at all while separated or did you do your own things with the kids?
- The biggest thing for the WAS to come back some day would be the guilt and fear of rejection by LBS, what do you think helped in your sitch? How was your behavior towards him that gave him the courage to even consider letting you know he wants to try R?
Thank you for taking the time to guide us all who are still burning in these fires.



Arsh, thank you for commenting. I will read your sitch. Yes, there are more LBHs on these boards than LBWs, for sure. I am not sure why though. I have read here that D is more often filed by women and more so by the WAW (walkaway) than the WW (wayward). In MWDs article, she even states that the WAW tried to talk to her H for so long -- often years -- and to no avail, until she got to the end of her rope and gave up. He did not listen or make the adjustments, and so time went on and she suffered vocally and then fell silent. At this point she becomes checked out entirely. She then ends it, sometimes with an A and sometimes not. He is forced to acknowledge, then he panics and now finds himself here, yet it is often too late. This scenario seems to be the norm here and seems more common for the LBH. Sometimes there is an A mixed in, but if she did not leave only to pursue the A, then it is more of a WAW sitch than a WW. I do not often see this scenario for the LBW (like us). And for the record, I am speaking about monogomous hetero Ms, and of course am gender-stereotyping a bit, based on what I have read. Hopefully I am not offending anyone!

I am certainly not an expert, but I can speak to my sitch and my husband was not a WAH (walkaway) as much as he was a WH (wayward). I would also venture to say, that his stages of limerance and the predictability was very similar to a WW! So what I am suggesting is that perhaps the WAW syndrome is more exclusive to women, however waywardness knows no gender. Someone please correct and 2*4 me as needed :-) I learn from everyone here. When women or men become engaged in an A, that A can become addictive like a drug (limerance) and causes the person to flee their M, and often at the expense of everything (M, family, home, finances, etc) and the behavior is more irrational. There was no plan to have the A, no prior plan to end the M, and the person is very much in a fog. All they can see is (tunnel vision) this A and that option is better. It is a form of avoidance and escapism. While being left for an A can on the surface feel like a much more painful betrayal, I also tend to think there is more hope. Rarely do As work out or turn into successsful Rs, and so at some point in time, the person will start second guessing their choices. The walkaway, is usually done before the A starts, and so I tend to think there is less chance of them going back to the M. In my sitch, I think my H was a WH and I think his XOW was a WAW. After he left her, she ran right on to OM2 and never went back at her H.

To try and answer your questions:

Yes, he says he had guilt and self-doubt the entire time. He says in his gut he always felt the A was wrong and never saw it as a real option. He also says he felt guilty about not really giving our M a chance or having worked out our issues. What kept him away so long was his fear that I could not forgive him and that he didn't deserve a chance. He knew his R with OW was a pipedream but he also felt addicted to it and more so the way she made him feel about himself. From his end, the R didn't ever feel real and it felt manufactured. He knew he couldn't trust her and what she said. He also says he always missed the connection and closeness that we had, but he felt he had ruined it. When I finally let go and stopped ignoring, or attacking, him is when he realized he was losing me. He did a sharp 180 at that point and started doing whatever he could. It was almost like a light switch. So I tell people here; if you have to ask if they are coming back or moving towards R, then the answer is "no." If they want to come back, you and your gut will know!

When BD happened, I really lost it. For weeks and months, I was a mess. I am not proud of my behaviors, but I just didn't have the reserves to handle it. If you read my sitch you will see that it came at the worst time; my father had died, my teen had been diagnosed bipolar and we had to get her help and send her out of state, and the OW was a person I actually thought was a close friend. The sitch was more than a bomb drop, it was a nuclear explosion. And I acted as such. It took me a long time to learn to follow the rules. As I got better at it, I also started to feel better about myself.

We have 3 Ds (my oldest is his step-D). So I had to be in contact with him often. It was really hard. Here is another difference between my H and some of the folks on this board. Even though what he did was incredibly selfish and destructive, he still tried his best to do the right thing. I know that sounds strange, but there are some things that are unforgivable, and I don't think he crossed those lines. He left the home and I stayed there with the kids. He still paid half the bills. He made a point to talk to or see the kids every day. When he was around, he cooked, he cleaned and he continued to be a good dad. When I was upset/angry/etc he listened and apologized: he did not even try and justify what he was doing or make excuses. He also did not allow our kids to be around her or the A, which I told him I wouldn't ever accept. (of course she still tried, she wanted my family) Was he perfect, or even a decent human? Heck no! But could our sitch have been a lot worse? I really think so.

Gotta run, I'll be back later!

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Thanks Blu, I have been reading all your threads and there is such wisdom for the newbies like me to follow. I have always felt this forum is like grief counseling, all the vets like you are doing charity work by offering your DB lessons and advice. Thanks for investing your time here.
The first thread you described your H as a nice guy who was a people pleaser and put your needs before yours, that is exactly what my H was too. And then suddenly he was this erupted volcano that had been unhappy for so long and I was completely unaware and he cannot believe I wasnt aware. In my sitch, this volcano erupted when our baby was about 10 weeks old, but I do not think there is any A, certainly not a PA and mostly no EA either but well I have been the definition of naive with this MR so nothing can shock me at this time I believe. Now on retrospect there may have been signs, very subtle or I may have been completely ignorant, but I go back and ask myself if he was so unhappy would he have had another child with me?
You mention above that when you let go, did not ignore him he responded. How do you define not ignoring, in DB LRT it is suggested we dont always answer their calls and be friendly but distant. When he came over home, were you like a friendly neighbor, or did you just leave if he was around? Did that change over the course of the time?

When it rains misery it pours, you losing your dad, your Ds diagnosis and then the BD it couldn't get worse I can imagine. Have you spoken to him about the timing of this all? Do you hold resentment about when he did it not just the how or why?
Did he ever complain of depression to you before BD or post BD?
I do not mean to revisit any of those painful memories with these questions, trying to understand how the WAH minds work. if it is too painful to go back, please ignore my questions. - Arshi

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LoneWlf, thank you for saying that. I can certainly keep posting. I read here a lot post-BD and these boards and posters got me through many seemingly hopeless days. I don't know how much wisdom I have (on generalizing everyone's situations and needs), but I definitely have spent a lot of time analyzing and trying to make sense of my own. I don't think that I am an expert though. Yes, I got better at following the rules, my H did return, and the piecing is mostly successful. I still feel I have a lot to learn and understand about myself. There are still changes I want to make and I feel like overcoming hardships for me, motivates positive change and growth. It has been getting easier because I am no longer fearful, anxious or depressed. I recognize how much harder this is for all of you then where I stand today. Lastly, if you read my threads, it is pretty obvious I still have resentment and disgust towards XOW. I am not sure how much of that is worth exploring and trying to let go of. I just don't know yet.

arsh, it is fine to post and ask me anything. I am okay with revisiting painful memories because I am not one to avoid things in general. I feel like the more people avoid/deny hardships, the more they manifest in other ways that are beyond our understanding or control. I will try my best to answer your questions. When I have a chunk of time, I will read your sitch from the start. Does seem like there are several differences. Either way, our actions as the LBS should be the same.

In terms of ignoring vs spending time together and the "friendly neighbor" approach: I found all of that really hard. In my initial attempts to detach, I would ignore him. I would not reply to all of his texts, calls and emails. Then when I would see him for kid exchanges, I would avoid speaking to him or even making eye contact. When he spent time with the kids at our house, I would leave and go out with friends. Mostly he took the kids to his parents' where he was staying. I didn't have family time or allow the cake eating! He chose to leave the M and so as far as I saw it, he needed to face the consequences of that. When my emotions built up or he did/said something I didn't like or agree with, I was emotional in my responses. If I was angry, upset, afraid, he saw it all. Other times, I would engage him in long desperate conversations. I wore my heart on my sleeve. I wish that I hadn't done that. He was not a safe person for me to share that with and it also scared him away. When I got better at DBing, I changed my approach. I still didn't initiate contact, but when it was about logistics, I replied. I was simple, direct, and matter of fact. I really did try and treat him like a neighbor.

Overcoming resentment and finding forgiveness about what he did and the timing of it all, has been the hardest thing I have ever done. I am still a work in progress. Yes, we have talked about it many times. He carries a huge burden of guilt and regret. I actually feel sorry for him. I would not want to carry that. It has definitely changed who he is and how he sees people. Some of that has also built character and grit. In several ways, I like him more now. He also remains very affectionate and kind.

Before BD, he didn't complain of depression, but I could see changes. I can think back to things that were happening over the couple years before and see now that there were risk factors. We had a lot on our plate with work, kids, family, and my over-volunteering. He often seemed tired, overwhelmed and unhappy. He gave and gave to our family and felt empty, but he didn't vocalize it much. I can also see how I was controlling and not responsive to his needs. He shut down and became resentful towards me and I started to resent him for the withdrawal in return. And XOW was right there befriending him and supporting him on the sidelines behind my back. He had poor boundaries with women in general: always the nice guy, helpful neighbor, and best dad, and he didn't say "no" to anyone. My H was the last person on earth I would have ever thought could have an A! He was so loyal, present, warm, devoted and generous. However I can see now, looking back, how our sitch was in other ways a recipe for a disaster.

Not sure if that helps. I'll check out your threads soon!

Take care,
Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Blu- I'm eating this stuff up -like it's prime rib steak!! Your posts have substance- depth and flavor! So appreciated!


M51 w50
T-20Yrs M-16Yrs
S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up
1 Awesum dog
BD 10/31/17
separate rooms 02/08/18
wife moved out 05/17/18

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On a side note- try reading -The Art of Forgiveness. You might be able to gain something by it. Cheers!


M51 w50
T-20Yrs M-16Yrs
S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up
1 Awesum dog
BD 10/31/17
separate rooms 02/08/18
wife moved out 05/17/18

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Quote
And then suddenly he was this erupted volcano that had been unhappy for so long and I was completely unaware and he cannot believe I wasnt aware. In my sitch, this volcano erupted when our baby was about 10 weeks old, but I do not think there is any A, certainly not a PA and mostly no EA either but well I have been the definition of naive with this MR so nothing can shock me at this time I believe. Now on retrospect there may have been signs, very subtle or I may have been completely ignorant, but I go back and ask myself if he was so unhappy would he have had another child with me?


Hey Arsh! I know how you're feeling exactly! That's why this is so hard to wrap one's head around. What you wrote is exactly what happened to me, minus the recent baby. People here keep saying that the WAS probably was saying that they were unhappy in their own way, but the LBS wasn't listening and picking up on the signs. I spent so much time thinking about that and dissecting my marriage to see what signs I had missed. And honestly, I cannot remember any such signs from my WAW. The few times we had actual fights, I was there with her and we resolved them.

Not sure if this is the same with your H, but my WAW has serious anxiety issues. I totally underestimated the severity of it. I knew she had them, but I didn't realize how bad it was. My best answer to her behavior is that her anxiety didn't allow her to talk to me and she kept it bottled up. For years apparently, but I remember so much happiness and joy in that time. Yes things were difficult because we were both young professionals with 2 little children very early on in our marriage, but I thought we were making it work and grinding it out together. Together being the key word. We were both contributing to our family in different ways, and that's what I believed partnership was.

We even bought our dream home six months before BD. She was so excited and happy during house hunting and so was I. It was like a huge milestone in our lives and I thought we were getting somewhere finally after so many years of moving around and job changes.

And then she started a grad program and got to be good friends with a man who was going through issues in his MR. I believe that fed her and I am not sure how much influence he had in messing with her head. But, it was definitely an EA, even if she didn't recognize it as such. And then BD and the volcano erupted.

Yes, we had issues, and we needed to address them. But they weren't issues that were separation worthy IMHO. We could've worked on them together. We could've built something strong.

So, this thing about them being unhappy forever is partly rewriting the marriage, and also them having issues communicating in a healthy way. On chump lady, she has a post exactly about this. When the WAW talks about being unhappy forever, there is really nothing the LBS can say to that. It also send the LBS in these crazy loops of how they didn't see it. Because it wasn't really there in the severity that the WAW talks about.

In my case, I wish I had seen her anxiety issues better. I also wish I had seen my depression issues better. So, in a way we both failed to support each other properly. The only difference is that I was willing to put in the work, she wasn't. So, what can you do about that.

About WAW's coming back, I am not so optimistic about that. I am not saying it can't happen, but most LBS here are dealing with a WS, which has some differences in the trajectory of how things play out.

I sometimes struggle with thinking about whether I should reach out to her or not. Should I initiate something? I know the answer to that is just pain and so I don't do it and I am good at checking myself before I act now. I also don't know if she reached out and wanted to spend time, what I would do. How do you go back from complete separation and NC to hanging out? In my case, with the EA and I know she went on a few dates after BD and probably continued as well, how do you go and hang out with them after they've done that? I feel that I would be disrespecting myself and what I bring if I go with that. She hasn't reached out so this is hypothetical, but I like to think about it so that I know what I really want and what would make me feel respected and comfortable. I have mighty respect for people here who are able to just hang out after the A has ended and WW's reality has collapsed. I just don't think I have that in me.

For me to even consider, she would have to make some major moves. Make her intentions clear. I don't expect to want the marriage back, but I want remorse, transparency, and some action plan on her part to show me that she's a better person. Unfortunately, with her severe anxiety issues, I don't see that happening. She would have to work with a therapist to address all of that, and I don't know if she will. She gets anxiety just thinking about going to a therapist, let alone doing it. So, the probability of her turning things around for the marriage or herself are low. I honestly wish she would do the therapist for herself, if nothing else.

A long time ago, I came to the realization that my situation is not salvageable. And I didn't do that because I am a pessimist or I didn't believe in DB. DB has helped me immensely for myself, but for the marriage not so much. And I am okay with that. If there was a specific set of techniques that worked foolproof, the rate of reconciliation would be so much higher.

All in all, I feel the pain of you facing the 'I have been unhappy for years'. Ultimately, you can't do anything about that. If you were a mind reader, then yes, but we are not. You can't try and work on something if the other person doesn't communicate with you. There's always something more behind that that is about their character and personality rather than what the LBS is doing. I also thought what if I created an environment in the marriage that made them feel unsafe or uncomfortable communicating with me. And there were some instances that maybe I did. But I also remember the times when the problem was communicated to me and I was full on involved in figuring it out with her. So, I thought I had a track record of at least being willing and open and able to work with her. But it didn't matter in the end.

Sorry there's no real answer in what I have written. I can just learn the lessons I can from this and be a better person moving forward. And I encourage you to think in the same way. This is over for now.

If they do want to come back, they have to be a better person as well. And that's the only way you can work together and see if something can be built. I can't take my W back if she doesn't fix her anxiety issues. I can't put myself through that again - the betrayal, the pain, the lying. Your H would have to be a better man too and learn how to communicate well.

The saddest part of all of this is that these issues could have been worked with together instead of a separation and a divorce. But that's the chance we are not given. A second chance because the stakes are so high. And that's why I cannot give her a chance easily because she chose the path that irreversibly changed the life of 3 people. I love the quote that LH19 has in his tag about never having to convince someone to be with you; the right people will find you and stay in your life.

I am never going to convince someone to be with me or be in my life. Take that empowerment and run with it. That's what I am doing. It's a really difficult path, especially when you have no family or community around you. I know what that's like. We just have to pick up the pieces and make something else out of it. There's just no other way around.
My kids are a really huge part of my decision making on how I should move ahead with my life. That helps a lot.

This all weighs on me a lot, but I also know that I will not stand defeated. Keep going! I hope to look back at this in ten years and see how I dug deep and brought out my strength and resilience and made a great life for myself and my kids. Keep that vision!


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THANK YOU Maika! What you just wrote is so much how I am feeling in my sitch!


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I'm glad to be of help. Trust that there is a stronger you at the end of it and commit to personal self care, improving mental health, lowering stress, be a warrior parent, finding what you love in life, and being self-reliant. The right people will come and stay in your life.


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Thank You Maika, very well written in fact. I am shocked because we had the baby but in your case who goes from signing a mortgage on a dream home to wrecking it for the entire family? There is no way to understand the WAS mind.
You say, in the process you realized you cannot salvage your R due to her personality traits. How far along were you in the DB to have realized this and how much after BD?

Piecing is not easy, it takes 2 strong individuals not a strong couple to make it thru.WAS leaves the LBS shattered and rejected. Over time LBS gets over the initial trauma and begins to see they might have played a role but definitely are not responsible entirely for the undoing. And most of us realize this could have had so many other outcomes, S and D are the worst choices. We realize the WAS is broken. Once they are out of the fog, eventually WAS has to realize this too. At that point in time, the WAS is way lower on the R and even humanity scale compared to the LBS who picked up the pieces and moved on. In that aspect it is easy to be a LBS, the guilt that comes out of breaking the MR and the home for your kids must be eternal. Of course unless they are plain evil and are far gone. How is R possible at that point. For the WAS to be forgiven and to be made to feel that past will be forgotten, this has to take tremendous effort on both sides and that is what I am seeing in Blu's scenario.
They both need to be very strong individuals, for her to consider forgiving him but also for him to come back and make amends knowing he will have to bear this burden living together needs a lot of strength from his side.
Blu, my question to you is, you clearly made him realize you were the lighthouse, but how did you keep the path to home paved? What gave him the hope and idea that you maybe able to forgive and work on the R in spite of his behavior? Why did he return to you to go thru this pain after the A ended, it would be easier to just move on in life and be in denial, but there must be something you did that gave him this confidence. Can you please let us know how that played out in your sitch?
- Arshi

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