Advice on my scenario Pt. 3

[OrangeK]

Link to last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785805#Post2785805

[OrangeK]

Sandi / Vanilla,

If there is anything else about WW you want to know to help better understand, please just ask. I'd be happy to provide any further details that would allow you to better advise me on what my WW's situation is and how I should proceed, beyond the obvious DB'ing stuff.

I want to keep on hoping things could improve, but i look at some of the other threads, and i feel like WW and i have been separated too long already, shes got too much invested in her new social circle from her job, which includes OM.

I am self focused on GAL, but i know until the chips fall and settle ill always have this glimmer of hope that i can save my family, despite all the efforts i have made to disconnect and don my emotional armor.

What a disappointment.
I was so excited to live our lives together.
I thought we wanted the same things. I thought we were soul mates.

"Hardships often prepare ordinary people for an extraordinary destiny"
~C.S. Lewis

[Vanilla]

Orange

I am very reluctant to give my view. This is a pro M website although I feel some M are so abusive they should not be repaired.

I think yours is one of these.

Whilst (like many that are abused) you were targeted by this woman then you have been treated so shabbily and with no feeling that there are signs of trauma bonding.

This isn't victim hood.

None of this is your fault, none of it. This sitch you find yourself in is very terrifying for your mental health. You may wish to read either Schermann or Mustardseed thread to see this level of eggshell damage.

I have an abuse councillors view of this, there are few actions more damaging than lying to get you arrested and treated to police actions.

Honey, please go NC, stay away from WW, don't communicate, no Joseph letter. Grey Rock is the order of the day.

Breaking a trauma bond is very troubling and hurts. You will have to walk to the pain and look to you. It's a long process.

Your WW has no formal diagnosis and I don't like to do so as I don't know you or her other than that which you have posted here.

I can however observe that her actions towards her child are very cold indeed and her use of you for her own ends gives me the shivers.

So briefly those who are cold are generally diagnosed as anti social rather than narcissistic (which is a trait). WW has no fears on how she looks to the world which makes her behaviour both overt and malignant. I don't believe you need a formal clinical diagnosis, it's enough to say she behaves in a cold and deeply abusive way.

It is my view that DB in these circumstances is for you, you are the one here on this board, bewildered and confused. You are the one standing for M, for its principles. You are here for your child and to repair you. DB saved my life for which I am eternally grateful. There is nothing to stop you standing for M if you so wish. To do so until you are ready to let go of this M and this WW. To become healthy for you and your child.

This kind of abuse can really harm you psychologically and drive you to ill health. There are many crazy loco (cognitive dissonance) issues for you to handle. These include absolute discard and cold contact with early love bombing, blame and false accusations with protests of love, ignoring her child vs maternity. These are very hard things to know and reconcile. It sends you mind looping and confusion ensues

There are many of us who have walked this journey before you and emerged the other side healthier in mind and body. It isn't an easy journey to reconcile the irreconcilable.

I am here to listen Orange. This isn't what you wanted to hear and this is not my normal message. I do post to those who have abuse in their sitch mainly because that is my own experience.

This is very tough stuff and you have a precious child to protect.

I always give those I post to a choice they can say no V and I will back off.

Those are my thoughts

Hugs

V

[OrangeK]

Vanilla.

Read this on my phone.
Will digest and respond in detail later tonight.

Thank you.

[Vanilla]

Vanilla.

Read this on my phone.
Will digest and respond in detail later tonight.

Thank you.

Let it marinade there is no rush. There is a lot to think about and it's ok to let your thoughts on it go back and forward.

I would prefer you take your time, this is very tough stuff and it's ok to give it gravitas.

V

[OrangeK]

I am very reluctant to give my view. This is a pro M website although I feel some M are so abusive they should not be repaired.

I think yours is one of these.

Please don't be reluctant. After the "event" in jan that resulted in the RO, I began my research, and a lot of it lead me to information on personality disorders and whatnot. I've read into the dark triad and cluster B and so on. I have thick skin. I'd much prefer your opinions, even if they be harsh.
The Truth often isn't pretty, but it's better than shielding yourself from it IMO. So please, be blunt, i appreciate it.

Whilst (like many that are abused) you were targeted by this woman then you have been treated so shabbily and with no feeling that there are signs of trauma bonding.

I've read a fair bit about trauma bonding but it still seems to escape me. As far as her having no feeling, I am still lost if she truly "has no feeling" or if shes just stuffing it so deep down because shes scared of the guilt of what shes done (more than once apparently) that she has convinced herself she doesn't have feelings about it.
She told me time and time again when we were still talking
"I don't know what happened, i just.....checked out emotionally"
She must have said that exact sentence several times.
I also got the ILYBINILWY, "I don't know" was the answer to many questions. When I was still heavily pursuing she would reply angrily with "How am i supposed to give you answers to questions i dont have?!"
These questions included, "How could you go from loving me enough to marry me to cheating on me in 6 months?"
WW: "IDK"
Me: "Are you ever going to miss me? do you love me?"
WW: "IDK"
and so on.

None of this is your fault, none of it. This sitch you find yourself in is very terrifying for your mental health.

Up until recently it really was. I had lost about 35lbs overall. wasnt sleeping, almost lost my job, twice. I am PLAGUED with thoughts about her, our M, Our son, the betrayal. If i could forget it all i would in a heartbeat. Its such a burden to carry and think about all the time.
Thankfuly the last 2-3 weeks have been a good improvement.
the "waves", as i have come to call them, of fury, depression, crippling sorrow, and mood swings in general, have significantly decreased in intensity and frequency.

I do still worry about when I see WW in court or for parenting reasons, as i A.) dont know how I will react to seeing her, speaking with her. B.) am not entirely confident in my ability at this time to stand my ground and stick to my boundaries if she were to try and test them.

I am in a much better place to do that than i was however.

At the same time, a great fear i still struggle with is "Will she STAY with OM forever? is he actually better for her than me? Will she ever realize or acknowledge what she has done to me and S3? Did she ever even actually love me? does she even know how, or what love is? or is she "in love" with limerence and "butterflies" only?
(she mentioned "losing the butterflies for me")

Honey, please go NC, stay away from WW, don't communicate, no Joseph letter. Grey Rock is the order of the day.

Currently i cant do anything but NC even if i wanted otherwise.
When RO is lifted i dont plan on changing that philosophy, other than S3 related stuff that is, and even with that, Grey Rock, I plan on waiting to respond to things, and talking to support IRL and here before I do.
Lastly, What is a "Joseph Letter"?

those who are cold are generally diagnosed as anti social rather than narcissistic (which is a trait). WW has no fears on how she looks to the world which makes her behaviour both overt and malignant.

"Has no fears on how she looks to the world"
This seems to be partially the case, as she knows the affair is basically full blown public knowledge, and im sure has had people ask about it, and had to vilify me / lie to cover her tracks.
However, when her and I began dating, she didnt take long AT ALL before she was all over social media about us and how in love she was and so on. Since she began seeing OM, her social media slowly faded and has now completely ceased. I know Social Media was always very important to her, and i believe she sought A LOT of attention through instagram. to the point where she would copy other peoples posts (this alienated friends and family, like my brothers wife), or embellish the truth on her own. She used to present a sparkly fun amazing life on instagram (a reason i feel she may have gone through with the wedding , despite already beginning to "check out, LOOK AT ALL THE PRETTY PHOTOS!)
She is charming, and personable and sweet. Everyone who first meets her loves her. She is adoreable, and clever and funny.
If she is anything, she is Covert IMO. it helps her lie her story to people when she needs to vilify others. She did it to me about her EX's when we first started dating
"how could ANYONE treat this AMAZING woman like that?,What fools! their loss is my gain!"
boy did i miss red flags huh?

It is my view that DB in these circumstances is for you, you are the one here on this board, bewildered and confused. You are the one standing for M, for its principles. You are here for your child and to repair you. DB saved my life for which I am eternally grateful. There is nothing to stop you standing for M if you so wish. To do so until you are ready to let go of this M and this WW. To become healthy for you and your child.

Here is my conflict. My Alamo.
I love this woman, or at least the version of herself she showed me for 3 of the 5 years we were together. I want to stand for my M, i want us to be happy like we were.
But were we really? I was, but was she? will she ever be?
EVERY part of my logic is saying "YOU GOT PLAYED, LEAVE NOW, NO WOMAN NO CRY DUDE!! BAIL!"
EVERY part of my heart, and my emotions is telling me "YOU SWORE A VOW, YOU LOVE HER, SHE IS YOUR WIFE.
I intend to DB no matter what, just with no expectations of results. I have convinced myself she either is sick (cluster B?), and wont change either ever, or until she decides she needs help. Or she is just very hardcore WW / MLC (at 30?!) that she is going to hit bottom sometime, be it 5 days, weeks, months or years, and realize what she tossed away, and what she does (it would need to be monumentous ) and says at that time combined with where I am at will depend on if R is even an option.

This kind of abuse can really harm you psychologically and drive you to ill health. There are many crazy loco (cognitive dissonance) issues for you to handle. These include absolute discard and cold contact with early love bombing, blame and false accusations with protests of love, ignoring her child vs maternity. These are very hard things to know and reconcile. It sends you mind looping and confusion ensues

It is awful. the Cog Dis is a real thing. The AMAZING woman i married, and this sometimes "dead in the eyes" looking, cold, emotionless person ARE NOT THE SAME HUMAN BEING IN MY HEAD. It is impossible for me to grasp, but at the same time I do. She went from the most perfect match i could have ever hoped for, then we fell into a routine, as i figured most relationships do, then as soon as we were wed, she turned into an entirely different person.
Im worried i will never love properly again, that ill always compare other women to her, and that i wont be able to trust. Im very turned off to the idea of having more kids or getting married again. I REALLY Wanted to have another child with her. Now im just worried that the one we have is going to be damaged from what she has done or imparted on him genetically.......

There are many of us who have walked this journey before you and emerged the other side healthier in mind and body. It isn't an easy journey to reconcile the irreconcilable.

"It isn't an easy journey to reconcile the irreconcilable"
Can it even be done? Isn't that the $1,000,000 question on these forums?
i dont want someone who doesn't want me, and certainly not someone i cant trust or who i think may not even be capable of properly knowing what love is without intensive therapy.
However if those things CAN be accomplished and built, i would dig the Grand Canyon by hand to make it happen.

I am here to listen Orange. This isn't what you wanted to hear and this is not my normal message. I do post to those who have abuse in their sitch mainly because that is my own experience.

This is very tough stuff and you have a precious child to protect.

I always give those I post to a choice they can say no V and I will back off.

Truth and honest unfiltered guidance is what i want to hear, and it sounds like you are the one to offer that. I'm buying.
Please don't back off, I am deeply emotional and very raw from this, but ive literally trained to maintain in horrid conditions.
I've pulled dead teenagers from cars in front of their family, I can handle this.
It has CRIPPLED me, but not knocked me out of the fight.
Be blunt, be honest, no sugar coating (Im cutting sugar out of my diet as part of GAL anyway)




Lastly, thank you for reading my sitch and offering your support and wisdom.
I feel like i have real support from people who truly get it here.
Im looking forward to my Sunday with my Son (SOnday )
waiting to her about the apartment, and still searching for more.

Next Court date on RO case is Thursday. Wish me luck, i hope it gets dismissed.
Still waiting to hear about Motion to Hold, might not happen i guess. at judges discretion.
I honestly dont much care either way.
If theD goes forward it might be clensing.

I heard a quote i liked the other day
"Almost everyone will get married more than once in their life, some of you will just re-marry the same person, but with two new versions of yourselves"
Maybe thatll happen to me.
Maybe not.

All i know is the marriage i HAD (or thought it had) is DEAD and GONE.

We either start fresh, or diverge paths for good.

I won't be a doormat or a pushover. I deserve to be happy. plain and simple.


Goodnight.

[Vanilla]

Let's look at love.

Love is not a feeling (there are basically 6 or 8 feelings, joy, sadness, disgust, anger, surprise amoung them). If you want to look into this please examine the Disney Film inside out. Highly highly recommended for you and your son to watch together. Love is a state like peace or excitement or despair. These states are a choice, and the body can only hold one at a time. That is why GAL is so important it creates a change of body state. It changes your body chemistry.

There is going to be plenty of time after Thursday for those discussions, let's get you through Thursday ordeal and out the other side.

That means a body state of confidence not love for you. Choose to be confident.

Do not rely on WW backing down, and be prepared to eat plates of sh@t sandwiches. See lots of awful behaviour. Be prepared for it and please don't let it take you by surprise (emotion!) As this will take away your confidence. Be prepared to see the acting of her life, be prepared for lies and be prepared for the worst realisations that can ever be. Be prepared for manipulation, false accusations and fabricated evidence. This cold fish knows your son is important to you so be prepared for the start of a set up to separate you from him and be prepared for false accusations of anything.

I truly hope that won't happen, and I will be projecting strength. The key is lack of surprise. Imagine I am watching your back as you go into court and that you are not alone. Arrange a sturdy friend to meet you afterwards. And Eat before you go in, carry water, dress smartly, shirt tie and clean shoes. Have some thing in your hands to stop busy hands. A notepad perhaps. Use the loo before you go in. Meet with L for a quick debrief. Use deodorant on the day and get a haircut on Tuesday. Cover any visible tattoos. No drinking or even sleep aids from Tuesday. Rest Wednesday even if you can't sleep.

Remember you have not done anything wrong, you are falsely accused. Be confident in that and that all the evidence is fabricated. Have your shuff together, be credible, look credible, you may or may not sleep but rest. Be categorical in your denial of anything you don't agree with, and be sure to say you have and you will stay away from WW.

This is trauma but you will get through it. If you are credible, look good and can keep yourself strong then it can go away, they may back down. The courts are busy. I am what is known as a McKenzie friend in the UK and help women who have been falsely accused of assault get through this. There is a saying a scratch beats a bruise in false abuse.

Afterwards be prepared for shock to kick in, you will be on adrenalin so once again eat and get an early night. How you treat yourself in the next 7 days will be very influential for your health.

So back to Love (which is a state). Be prepared to learn that cold fish only M you for the fin support you can give. That's shocking but par for the course.

I don't want to loop you, just prepare you to face the worst which you don't deserve.

After Thursday I will chat here all you like but know I believe you and you have my full support. I will take your post above and analyse it in depth and that will take a few days.

Trauma bond is tough to understand, if you wish to read how that works Joseph2017 also had this dynamic and he is ahead of you on the road. His threads are only 3 in number you may find them helpful.

Zelda and I put together an abuse thread you may find useful as a starter. It's ok, you will get through this.

And in my opinion you were a target.

V

[Vanilla]

Zelda and Vanilla Abuse Resource

Joe2017

Also in your tribe and new are Orange, Meg, Marina and 9090

V

[OrangeK]

I think the fact that the divorce that I never wanted is in motion is adding a lot of stress. I've heard a lot of people mention that the whole process takes a long time I have already done first appearance and our first hearing is at the end of May. it is currently set as uncontested call Crow How long can I expect things to take? I feel like time would be my ally in this situation and I'm ready to be patient for the week see what the outcomes will be I have a feeling the wayward reality is going to set in for her sometime before Christmas of this year. lots of sentimental dates coming up Mother's Day Father's Day my birthday I've resolved to disconnect your not have any expectations here but I think Mother's Day is going to be an interesting test as we may be communicating by then and she will likely expect something whether or not she actually says something about it. at this point I have the mindset that the motion to hold is not going to be granted and divorce will move forward and I'm not going to stand in the way if that is the case it's time to take care of myself

[sandi2]

lots of sentimental dates coming up Mother's Day Father's Day my birthday I've resolved to disconnect your not have any expectations here but I think Mother's Day is going to be an interesting test as we may be communicating by then and she will likely expect something whether or not she actually says something about it.

You are already going there with your expectations. You are setting yourself up for more pain, frustration, and questions that nobody can answer.

These dates will not affect your WW. They will affect you! You will be watching her to see how she reacts to these holidays/events, and it won't be what you think. These are the type of things you have to shield your own mental/emotional health, instead of wondering about hers.

I'm relieved Vanilla is here. You'll be wise to follow her advice. Please read her posts several times. I am concerned about your expectations in communicating with your WW once the R.O. is lifted. There is a part of you putting hope in that communication. Don't let it prevent you from really hearing what Vanilla is saying.

((hugs))