No affair(?), no feelings...is there hope? Part II

[SteveLW]

Major update:

W left her phone in the bathroom this morning when she went downstairs. I couldn't resist, she didn't even change her password.

Took me 10 seconds to find all that I needed to know. Affair confirmed. They have had physical contact - kissing, minimum. Could be more, don't know, don't care. This means she cheated in the week before BD. That part stings. But I was prepared for this, I'm not an idiot. Glad to have seen confirmed evidence with my own eyes, without any more than necessary to add to the pain.

Don't think it changes anything for me, DB-wise, right? If anything, it will be easier to stand my ground and not accommodate her at all anymore. Now I can truly spend the time thinking if this is something I can get past and if I even want her back.

Sorry man, but you already knew this was probably the case. As others have said, it changes nothing. Other than if it crossed a boundary for you maybe you are the one that can't move forward with R now. If you are okay with what she has done and still what to work towards R, then yes, you just keep moving on.

Likely this A will end and relatively soon. She is 26 and he is 19? Even without her being married that would be doomed to fail. Unless he is one mature 19 year-old. I dated a 19 year-old before I met my wife. I was 27 at the time. While it was fun for a while, it got old quick. She was still into high school drama crap that I had left behind years before. We were both in such different places in our lives. She was very attractive, but became less so as her 19 year-old lifestyle began to wear on me. By time we broke up I didn't even want to be her friend anymore. I was just at such a different place in my life.

[44tries]

Thank you all for your support, it means a lot. Steve, I really appreciated your personal anecdote and agree that I don't think the A can last. I'm not getting my hopes up that it will implode sooner rather than later, but there is no denying that the odds are stacked against it.

Now that I have full awareness of the whole situation, there are some things that have become easier and some things harder. Easier--man it's like my spine got a growth hormone injection! I have no fear or hesitation standing up to her now. I am not rude, not a jerk, always maintain respect, but I have no problem telling her no. Even in the past 24 hours, the dynamic has noticeably changed because I simply won't let her put even one toe over the line. The tides are turning and I am gaining power back; she is noticing and the push-pull is in full effect. Now that I have completely stepped back, she is the one in the chaser position and I must admit it I'm enjoying it.

Harder--maintaining an attitude of love and respect at all times is a lot more difficult than it was. I need to be careful not make snide comments or jabbing jokes. We tend to joke competitively with each other anyway and now that my anger and hurt is an at an all-time high, it takes a lot of self control to make sure I don't let that seep into my tone or word choice. But I don't want to give her any ammunition at all to say that I am handling the situation less than perfectly. It is a bit strange to be fully aware and her not know that I am. I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?

Speaking of her pushing, she has been making continuous comments about the bed issue. Coming in in the mornings and saying to the dogs "Wow must be nice to sleep in this big comfy bed, huh?" Yesterday, she talked about how she hasn't been sleeping well, not so subtly implying her desire to move. Today, she declared "I am sleeping in my bed this weekend." I just ignored her. But I know she is going to push this. How she has the audacity I do not know. I will absolutely stand my ground, but I fear it will turn nasty. She has already said I am being difficult about it more than once. I am trying to work out how I can calmly, politely, but firmly silence her on the issue once and for all. Any advice is appreciated.

I have already given the line I wrote about in my previous post that explained to her why I was no longer willing to leave the bed. I will reiterate that when she says it again. But, if she pushes onward or tells me I'm being difficult, I am thinking about saying something like, "Ask yourself if you truly feel you have done nothing wrong to lose the right/privledge to sleep in our bed. Answer to yourself, not me. If the answer is yes, we can continue to discuss this. If the answer is no, the conversation is over." My hope is that this will shut her up, but if you guys think it won't and have a better strategy, I'm all ears .

I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good.

[doodler]

I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good.

44tries,

Good for you! And yes, tempering the anger can be hard at times. But, you're in the right mindset, just keep working toward your goal. You've got this...

[sandi2]

Harder--maintaining an attitude of love and respect at all times is a lot more difficult than it was. I need to be careful not make snide comments or jabbing jokes. We tend to joke competitively with each other anyway and now that my anger and hurt is an at an all-time high, it takes a lot of self control to make sure I don't let that seep into my tone or word choice. But I don't want to give her any ammunition at all to say that I am handling the situation less than perfectly. It is a bit strange to be fully aware and her not know that I am. I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?

Jabbing type of jokes between marriage partners eventually cuts too close to a nerve and if the receiving spouse expresses hurt or anger, the spouse throwing the jab will claim s/he was just joking. It feeds an undercurrent of disrespect and unresolved issues. From my observations IRL, it is a dangerous game for a MR. This is the perfect time for you to end your line of the jabbing jokes, b/c I can almost promise that you will eventually say something from your place of betrayal. Dropping your end of that particular brand of playfulness when interacting with your W, will help you to maintain a more visible profile of love and respect.

Ask yourself if you truly feel you have done nothing wrong to lose the right/privledge to sleep in our bed. Answer to yourself, not me. If the answer is yes, we can continue to discuss this. If the answer is no, the conversation is over." My hope is that this will shut her up, but if you guys think it won't and have a better strategy, I'm all ears

No, it's too wordy and self-righteous. It sounds as if you are aiming for some type of confession from her. This is an example of how it would overflow into your so-called joking and most of your verbal interaction with her.......if you are not watchful over yourself.

If there is a second bedroom in the house, then she just needs to get another bed, a blow up mattress, or a sleeping bag. It's not your problem. No need for a preachy response, just say you aren't leaving your bed. There is no need to repeat your reasons. (For some reason, LBH's always feel it is necessary to "remind" and repeat points to the WW. No, she heard you the first time).

Speaking of her pushing, she has been making continuous comments about the bed issue. Coming in in the mornings and saying to the dogs "Wow must be nice to sleep in this big comfy bed, huh?" Yesterday, she talked about how she hasn't been sleeping well, not so subtly implying her desire to move. Today, she declared "I am sleeping in my bed this weekend." I just ignored her. But I know she is going to push this. How she has the audacity I do not know. I will absolutely stand my ground, but I fear it will turn nasty. She has already said I am being difficult about it more than once. I am trying to work out how I can calmly, politely, but firmly silence her on the issue once and for all. Any advice is appreciated.

Your stance is that "you" aren't leaving the MBR (marital bedroom). If you have no problem sharing a bed with her, then don't try to stop her from getting in bed with you. She is the one who wants out of the M, so where she sleeps is her problem. You could say something like, "I am not leaving the marital bedroom. If you want to share my bed, I won't stop you.......but I am going to stay in my bed".

When she says something to the dogs intended for your ears, like it must be nice to sleep in the bed.......either ignore it, or agree. There is plenty you could be saying to the dogs.....right? But, that's a little immature, so don't stoop to that level.

[SteveLW]

Thank you all for your support, it means a lot. Steve, I really appreciated your personal anecdote and agree that I don't think the A can last. I'm not getting my hopes up that it will implode sooner rather than later, but there is no denying that the odds are stacked against it.

Now that I have full awareness of the whole situation, there are some things that have become easier and some things harder. Easier--man it's like my spine got a growth hormone injection! I have no fear or hesitation standing up to her now. I am not rude, not a jerk, always maintain respect, but I have no problem telling her no. Even in the past 24 hours, the dynamic has noticeably changed because I simply won't let her put even one toe over the line. The tides are turning and I am gaining power back; she is noticing and the push-pull is in full effect. Now that I have completely stepped back, she is the one in the chaser position and I must admit it I'm enjoying it.

Harder--maintaining an attitude of love and respect at all times is a lot more difficult than it was. I need to be careful not make snide comments or jabbing jokes. We tend to joke competitively with each other anyway and now that my anger and hurt is an at an all-time high, it takes a lot of self control to make sure I don't let that seep into my tone or word choice. But I don't want to give her any ammunition at all to say that I am handling the situation less than perfectly. It is a bit strange to be fully aware and her not know that I am. I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?

Speaking of her pushing, she has been making continuous comments about the bed issue. Coming in in the mornings and saying to the dogs "Wow must be nice to sleep in this big comfy bed, huh?" Yesterday, she talked about how she hasn't been sleeping well, not so subtly implying her desire to move. Today, she declared "I am sleeping in my bed this weekend." I just ignored her. But I know she is going to push this. How she has the audacity I do not know. I will absolutely stand my ground, but I fear it will turn nasty. She has already said I am being difficult about it more than once. I am trying to work out how I can calmly, politely, but firmly silence her on the issue once and for all. Any advice is appreciated.

I have already given the line I wrote about in my previous post that explained to her why I was no longer willing to leave the bed. I will reiterate that when she says it again. But, if she pushes onward or tells me I'm being difficult, I am thinking about saying something like, "Ask yourself if you truly feel you have done nothing wrong to lose the right/privledge to sleep in our bed. Answer to yourself, not me. If the answer is yes, we can continue to discuss this. If the answer is no, the conversation is over." My hope is that this will shut her up, but if you guys think it won't and have a better strategy, I'm all ears .

I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good.

Mostly good stuff here! Good job on the spine growth, that is extremely important. The temptation in these cases is to become worms. Believe it or not WWs will respect you when you act manly and stand up to them.

"I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?"

Her not knowing exactly what you know is definitely a good thing. I think you are in a position of strength if she gets the inkling you are aware of something, but unsure of what you know. So yes, this is good. It will cause her to interact more and start temp checking and probing to figure out what you might know.

On the bed issue, yes stand your ground. When she says things about it refer to the Validation thread. Use validation to let her know you understand her feelings, but that you aren't open to negotiation. When it doubt, say nothing at all! Just get ready and get into your bed. She'll either protest, get with the program, or ask to return to the bed with you still in it.

"I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good."

Just a word of caution I like to give to guys when they start to feel their mojo coming back. It is a good thing, but be aware that the emotional roller-coaster will continue. You will still have downs and that's easy to forget when you are on an up. The good news is that the downs get less and less frequent. But do not be taken by surprise. It is easy to give back gains you've made in the up times, but doing destructive, counter-productive things in the downs.

Also, when you interact with her never be sad or depressed. I like to tell guys to show a little anger. Never out of control, but firmness. "Why can't I just sleep in the bed tonight?" Firmly: "You are ALWAYS welcome to sleep in the bed, however, I WILL be there too!"

My wife always responded to my firmness with submissiveness, even in the midst of her waywardness!

[44tries]

Jabbing type of jokes between marriage partners eventually cuts too close to a nerve and if the receiving spouse expresses hurt or anger, the spouse throwing the jab will claim s/he was just joking. It feeds an undercurrent of disrespect and unresolved issues. From my observations IRL, it is a dangerous game for a MR. This is the perfect time for you to end your line of the jabbing jokes, b/c I can almost promise that you will eventually say something from your place of betrayal. Dropping your end of that particular brand of playfulness when interacting with your W, will help you to maintain a more visible profile of love and respect.

I completely agree and this is what I intend to do. It is impossible to not allow any of my emotions to come out in comments or jokes of that nature, so I just have to avoid them altogether.

No, it's too wordy and self-righteous. It sounds as if you are aiming for some type of confession from her. This is an example of how it would overflow into your so-called joking and most of your verbal interaction with her.......if you are not watchful over yourself.

Thanks for your feedback. I understand what you mean; I do not want a confession out of her. The 'wrong' doesn't even have to be the A, it could just be breaking the marriage vow. I don't want to sound self-righteous, I guess my struggle will be not feeling that way if she pushes me too far. It's hard not to feel like I am right when she insists that it is reasonable for her to get to sleep in the bed. I wouldn't use this type of wording at all if she doesn't push and push, I'm just worried she will. But, you're right, if she does, and my original statement wasn't enough for some reason, I will just tell her I can't control where she sleeps, but I will be in the bed regardless.

If there is a second bedroom in the house, then she just needs to get another bed, a blow up mattress, or a sleeping bag. It's not your problem. No need for a preachy response, just say you aren't leaving your bed. There is no need to repeat your reasons. (For some reason, LBH's always feel it is necessary to "remind" and repeat points to the WW. No, she heard you the first time).

There is more than one extra room and the one she is in has two beds she can choose from, so I'm rather surprised she is having that much of a problem. I think she is mostly subconsciously (or even consciously) testing the boundary and trying to reestablish her familiar feeling of power and control. Which is why she is still pushing, despite definitely hearing me the first time.

When she says something to the dogs intended for your ears, like it must be nice to sleep in the bed.......either ignore it, or agree. There is plenty you could be saying to the dogs.....right? But, that's a little immature, so don't stoop to that level.

I completely agree it is immature and if I have something to say, I will say it directly. I ignore all her indirect comments. She has extreme problems with passive-aggression and I have begun to just call her out on it. She will say things like "I'm hungry and don't know what to eat" and thinks that is her way of directly asking me to go make her some food. She tried to pull this just last night. She is sick and after five passive-aggressive comments, all of which I ignored, I said "if you really need me to get you something, you need to ask me directly." She still couldn't grasp the concept! She will learn quickly that I will no longer jump when she makes comments like these and if she ever wants anything from me, it better be important and she needs to be very explicit with the request.

[44tries]

Mostly good stuff here! Good job on the spine growth, that is extremely important. The temptation in these cases is to become worms. Believe it or not WWs will respect you when you act manly and stand up to them.

This is one thing that became very clear to me after all my reading here. I definitely won't be the worm!

Her not knowing exactly what you know is definitely a good thing. I think you are in a position of strength if she gets the inkling you are aware of something, but unsure of what you know. So yes, this is good. It will cause her to interact more and start temp checking and probing to figure out what you might know.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Glad to have it reinforced. It all plays into the 'curiosity' element that seems to be what you want when using LRT. This is the one area that gives me the most hope for any possible recon, actually. She temp checks me and probes CONSTANTLY. Not about what I know of the A (yet anyway), but everything else. Every single day, she asks me what I plan to do, what I did do, how I'm feeling, if I'm mad, etc. She is clearly not detached in that she definitely cares what I think, feel, and do. At first, this made it harder for me to detach, but now that I know it only makes her pursue more, I can do it confidently and know it's the best course of action.

On the bed issue, yes stand your ground. When she says things about it refer to the Validation thread. Use validation to let her know you understand her feelings, but that you aren't open to negotiation. When it doubt, say nothing at all! Just get ready and get into your bed. She'll either protest, get with the program, or ask to return to the bed with you still in it.

Wise words. My first instinct is always wordy and long-winded. I am compelled to talk and talk. It's great that both you and Sandi have easily recognized this and checked me on it. I will remember to validate and keep my words simple and not repeat myself.

Just a word of caution I like to give to guys when they start to feel their mojo coming back. It is a good thing, but be aware that the emotional roller-coaster will continue. You will still have downs and that's easy to forget when you are on an up. The good news is that the downs get less and less frequent. But do not be taken by surprise. It is easy to give back gains you've made in the up times, but doing destructive, counter-productive things in the downs.

Also great advice. I totally understand as I am most definitely on the roller-coaster and my emotions are extremely volatile. I can already feel the downs becoming less frequent though, so I remind myself of this when I'm there. Definitely don't want to give back any gains.

Also, when you interact with her never be sad or depressed. I like to tell guys to show a little anger. Never out of control, but firmness. "Why can't I just sleep in the bed tonight?" Firmly: "You are ALWAYS welcome to sleep in the bed, however, I WILL be there too!"

This is where the biggest benefit is for me now that I fully know of the A. I am a very mellow, even-tempered person and it's hard to get me angry. Now I have a source and as long as I keep it in check, I think I can harness it to help me be more firm. I never act sad or depressed, but she does frequently ask if I'm mad, even when I'm not. I know MWD says to be upbeat and pleasant, so I am trying to work on this as it clearly isn't the message I have been sending. I have been pretty serious and determined to go about my own business and I guess W mistakes it for anger. Other than times where she pushes and the anger/firmness is warranted, I am trying to be happier and more upbeat.

My wife always responded to my firmness with submissiveness, even in the midst of her waywardness!

I am just starting to see this as well and it is very encouraging for me to keep going! Because I have always been such a noodle, it totally reinforces everything everyone here has been telling me and I'm more determined than ever to grow my spine and get rid of my NGS. It's almost addicting getting some power back in the relationship, I don't know how I let myself lose so much of it along the way.

[SteveLW]

This is where the biggest benefit is for me now that I fully know of the A. I am a very mellow, even-tempered person and it's hard to get me angry. Now I have a source and as long as I keep it in check, I think I can harness it to help me be more firm. I never act sad or depressed, but she does frequently ask if I'm mad, even when I'm not. I know MWD says to be upbeat and pleasant, so I am trying to work on this as it clearly isn't the message I have been sending. I have been pretty serious and determined to go about my own business and I guess W mistakes it for anger. Other than times where she pushes and the anger/firmness is warranted, I am trying to be happier and more upbeat.

I want to encourage you here. If she is asking "are you mad" then you are probably doing detachment right! When I would detach well, my wife would always temp check me with a "is there something wrong?" As positively and upbeat as I could be without overdoing it I would respond with "Nope, everything is great!" You've already said that she is constantly temp checking, asking you what you are doing and did. So she is probably uber-sensitive to any changes you make. So if you detach properly she will take note. That may be her "are you mad?" is all about.

Concentrate on your detachment. How she reads it or interprets it is on her. So don't do change it based on her reaction. I think from what you have said you are doing really really well! So keep up the good work!

[sandi2]

She will say things like "I'm hungry and don't know what to eat" and thinks that is her way of directly asking me to go make her some food

Even if that is her signal for you to jump and fix her some food.........why would you? (You are too accommodating). She can either fix what you have prepared, or she can get what she wants. I am not the best at giving examples of come-back responses b/c my tongue is a little sharp for most cases. I would probably say something like, "Sounds like a problem", and leave at that. If she doesn't know what she wants, how the heck are you suppose to know?

[44tries]

I want to encourage you here. If she is asking "are you mad" then you are probably doing detachment right! When I would detach well, my wife would always temp check me with a "is there something wrong?" As positively and upbeat as I could be without overdoing it I would respond with "Nope, everything is great!" You've already said that she is constantly temp checking, asking you what you are doing and did. So she is probably uber-sensitive to any changes you make. So if you detach properly she will take note. That may be her "are you mad?" is all about.

Concentrate on your detachment. How she reads it or interprets it is on her. So don't do change it based on her reaction. I think from what you have said you are doing really really well! So keep up the good work!

Thanks so much, Steve! This really made me smile. After being here a few weeks, doing so much reading and posting, it's easy to feel I am so far from where I want/need to be. My eyes were really opened to how weak and accommodating I have been in my MR and how sorely I am lacking leadership skills. I do not want to be the desperate, powerless doormat anymore. It feels really good to know that I have made some positive progress and it is evident.

W called down to me just a few minutes ago, asking what I'm doing and if I'm mad. I really do think it is just her puzzlement at my detachment. Now every time she asks I will use it as motivation to keep pushing forward.