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Gordie - those feelings are coming up because they're true.

Let's parse out what you're saying keeping in mind where I'm coming from on my own journey. I tend to be more skeptical of happy endings these days.

w is taking advantage of me.
Yep - and if I remember correctly this was the case for your whole marriage. It was for mine.

She’s taking advantage of my kindness and loyalty and always being there and doing whatever she wants with no consequences
She's got it pretty darned good and she should know this but doesn't show appreciation. She perhaps selfishly thinks it to be her "due" or "just the way things should be".

I guess this is where the forgivnesss comes in and forgiving people who don’t ask for forgiveness.
Nope - Forgiveness is your letting go of things that upset you. It is not a requirement not even for a Christian man like yourself. I'm sure others who know their scripture better than a skeptic like me can dig into this more.

I can choose to be resentful and angry or I can choose to let go and be free, right? ..... but I can only control me
You are the only one you can control. You have every right to be resentful and angry and if you were talking to a friend you would very likely tell them that yourself. Even though it doesn't seem like it, each day that you are there stuck in IHS you are accumulating fresh hurts.

I’ve been on a good run lately and my situation hasn’t changed, so not sure why these feelings are coming up now.
Roller coasters go up and down and you signed up for the big loop-de-loop one. The roller coaster isn't just triggered by events. Our emotions cycle up and down all on their own without outside influences. I've not (essentially) seen my ex for almost 2 years now but earlier this week was driving down the road weeping, triggered by an audio-book I was listening to.

You've been here long enough to have read more than once Sandi2's comment that she's never seen a reconciliation with in-house separation. I think I saw the beginning of one once quite a while ago here but can't remember the thread.

Heaven knows that I am no expert on any of this, much less the lives of people hundreds of miles away that I only know from one side and only through those parts that have been shared.

Let's for a moment imagine that your W is a rebellious teenager. The resemblance may be uncanny wink Aforesaid teen goes out with their friends, has a few beers and comes home and wanders in the door smoking a joint. What happens? Consequences. What is the hoped for results? Teen pulls up their pants (still can't believe that plumber-butt is still a fashion statement) after a 3 hour lecture and either
A - sits in their room sulking that the world isn't fair and then goes out and does it again
B - gets better at not letting their parents know that they are partying
C - moves out and discovers what the real world is like
D - gets their act together

A few tough words now that may or may not be true in your case so I'll describe my own past. This also is just my own opinion of what happened and may not be the reality of the situation. I'll never know.

My ex said that she was hugely conflicted about whether to leave or not. She said she cried her eyes out all the time. BUT she still picked OM and leaving.

Even after that my ex kept me hanging for nearly a FULL YEAR while not having to invest one iota of effort to keep me hanging. I hung myself from that tree. Even after 2 YEARS she has never actually pushed me away / let me go. After the negotiations for the settlement she said that she wasn't interested in divorce. I was grateful that the lawyers wrote in that she would do the filing (even if there now seem to be inexplicable delays).

During IHS she would rub my face in the fact that she was choosing OM over me and seemed to glory in the fact that we were "fighting over her" (sound familiar?)

IMO - part of what caused things to drag out for me, and for you are the fact that there are no consequences to their actions. In my case, my ex chose to leave and I literally was on my knees begging her to stay. In your case she's got the safety net of you and is trying to rebuild a respectable life while you after popping your own head out into the world decided to head back inside to the perceived comfort and safety you had almost left behind. That doesn't mean she's chosen you as a partner. She's just weighing her options while you are being a good boy sitting in the hallway waiting for her to decide.

To be frank, I do regret not tossing my ex out when she first said that she wanted to leave and especially after I found out that she'd been unfaithful for the better part of a year. It would have saved me a whole lot of pain and made her face the consequences of her choices a whole lot faster. But that's not the sort of men that people like you and I are and we get taken advantage of for it.

I'm sure that like me you've done a lot of reading of other people's stories. I've read a bunch of stories with the genders switched where the dutiful wife overlooks her husbands infidelities and lack of respect and just sits there mouse-like for decades. That was the case for my ex-inlaws in fact. My ex describes how her mother couldn't get out of bed because of the depression of the knowledge of her husband's infidelities. On the surface they had a "happy marriage" for over 60 years. One thing my ex told me though while digging for excuses to leave me was that she didn't want us to be sitting in a nursing home sniping at each other like her parents. Maybe there was some love there. But there was no respect. It was a facade only. Not a marriage between loving equals.

Sorry Gordie. There are no easy answers. There are only tough questions.

All of us here have lots of opinions but the only real answers will come from within your own soul. And remember. It's OK to come up with the "wrong" answers that feel right at the time. Just recognize please when it's time to change course. It may not be now but you're not heading in direction you are wanting to go.


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Andrew,

Thanks for the insight. You have me lots to chew on. I think she’s hard to categorize at this point. She’s a little bit of:

A. Sulking in he room that the world isn’t fair but isn’t going out (for now)
B. Is better @hiding her behavior (don’t think so as she has been more of a home body and then tells me when and where she is going)
C. Is finding out a little more about the world but with my safety net.
D. Getting her act together in baby steps, nothing dramatic.

I did speak to my DB coach and she thought w was doing better than I was giving her credit for. She thought I was expecting big steps and actions but that what I am seeing are baby steps. I should embrace the baby steps. I should be patient. I should keep expectations low. This will take time, a long time.

Journaling:

So w asked me to go out on a date again this weekend. This was our second. Our first one last week was a very awkward first date. It was short and light. And like a clueless guy after a first date, I did not know if it would lead to a second. Well, this second went much better. We engaged in an activity of her choosing which also involved a long drive as it was about an hour away. Afterward she asked if I wanted to go to dinner or go home and I asked her what she wanted to do. She indicated that she’d like to go out to dinner so I found a place within walking distance and had an amazing meal. Conversation flowed freely. Our waiter had movie star good looks and I noticed her noticing but this surprisingly didn’t bother me. We actually joked about it. All in, we spent about six hours together which is the most we have spent together in a very, very long time. No R talk. She gave me a hug at the end of the date and thanked me for such a good time.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Gordie. Two dates. Wow. The second one sounded like it went really well.

Be patient she is making baby steps right now. You remember the DR book. What small step would you need or like to see in the next month or so to show that you are on the right track to reaching your goal?

Keep it up, to me it looks like it is working.


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Quote:
Forgiveness is your letting go of things that upset you. It is not a requirement not even for a Christian man like yourself. I'm sure others who know their scripture better than a skeptic like me can dig into this more.



Matthew 6:14-16

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (NIV)

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Just two of many verses in scripture regarding forgiveness. It's not always easy and maybe not possible right away, but it's clear that it is expected of Christians. It's also a frequent topic of Christian sermons.

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Gordie

I can see you're struggling with keeping your expectations low. I certainly would be!

I also think you're going to struggle with forgiveness that hasn't been requested. I don't think that part applies to marriage partners in situations where they've broken their vows. That is a monumental breach of trust, and to turn the other cheek, especially without the other party owning their sh*t, is not a requirement. What is a requirement is that you do not retaliate in kind. That you do not seek to punish. That you let the marriage partner find their way without being forced.

In order to grant true forgiveness your W will have to own up to the damage she's done. Does she want you guys to get back together without acknowledgement of wrongdoing or incidental damage to the children - all the damage she's done - and without remorse?

Could you really live the rest of your life with this woman without her doing her bit to keep your relationship healthy? I don't know if it's DBing to offer unconditional love to somebody who cannot or will not offer genuine contrition. That sounds like desperation or masochism to me.

I realise it's very early days, and the path to reconciliation is full of ups and downs. There is still time for your W to do her part and to be honest, I really hope she will. However, I think in order for you to deal with the internal critic you have, you need to decide what is going to be enough for you to keep going. I think you've found some evidence to suggest that she's moving towards you, but is it going to be enough without at least an acknowledgement of where she's been?


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Quote:
I also think you're going to struggle with forgiveness that hasn't been requested. I don't think that part applies to marriage partners in situations where they've broken their vows. That is a monumental breach of trust, and to turn the other cheek, especially without the other party owning their sh*t, is not a requirement


There are many misconceptions regarding what forgiveness is and what it isn't and it's definitely not 'turning the other cheek'. It also has nothing to do with condoning the behaviour of someone, vows or no vows, that you are trying to forgive. Or returning to a situation where a massive breach of trust occurred.

I'm not trying to convert anyone here but if you are giving advice to a Christian follower, then you should take care that the advice you give does not contradict Christian scriptures or doctrine.

This two articles might give further clarity:

http://www.thecourage.com/what-forgiveness-is-and-what-it-isnt/

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/is-it-ever-ok-not-to-forgive-someone/103117.htm

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DNJ, Devvo, Adios,

Thanks for the thoughts. My favorite forgiveness quote which has been on my mind is a Good Friday quote: “Forgive them, they know not what they do.” Luke 23:34. So during our last R talk back in January when we did have some discussion about what it would take to get back together, I did say: you have no idea how much you have hurt me. And she replied: no, I do not.

I do believe that we are called to forgive as we have been forgiven. We didn’t earn it. We don’t deserve it. God freely and lovingly forgives us. But of course, I am a very flawed and sinful and wounded human being so this is very difficult to do.

Adios, I do like the comments in the article about what forgives is not. It’s not sweeping things under the rug. It’s not pretending that the wrong wasn’t so bad or that the pain inflicted wasn’t real.

DNJ, thanks for the DB questions. For what steps am I looking?

Little steps:

Social - wanting to spend more time with me, wanting to spend more time together as a family

Emotional - right now, all focus remains on her but I’d like for her to express interest in me too

Physical - can we move beyond touching as friends? Could she hold my hand? Let me touch her like a man touches a woman?

Big steps:

Social - wanting to be my wife in public again with friends and family

Emotional - rebuilding trust, taking down walls, wanting to be vulnerable

Physical - rekindling sexual attraction, sleeping together, building a new sex life

Devvo, what’s enough for me? I’m trying to be patient and play the long game. As long as she is doing what she needs to do on her own and is not cheating on me, I am willing to be very patient in waiting for her to grow closer to me and giving us a chance to be more than friends and roommates.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Dang Gord, it seems like things are moving in a positive direction. I agree with you that they are so self absorbed that they have no idea of how badly they have hurt us.

Your little steps are on point I think. Obviously I have not been able to experience them, but they look good. Slow and steady my friend. I assume that once they embrace those small steps, the big steps will occur naturally.

You have been extremely patient. I strive to continue to have as much patience as you have shown. Stay the course my brother.


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ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
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Just passing by with a bucket of cold water.

I think we all (especially me) can recall times when we thought things were "going in a positive direction" just to be wrong.

There is so much happening that we don't know and perhaps never will know. I used to go for long walks earlier in my journey while still being in in-house separation and used to stop from time to time to jump up and down and squash the "hope gremlins" (probably looked silly). I still believed in them much to my dissapointment.

Each of our stories are different but also very very similar.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Andrew,

My life is a big cold shower. It makes me very cautious.

So question I have is when is it okay to be less cautious? To open myself up more? I think of you and Cali and countless others who have gotten burned.

SBJ,

Thank you and happy Easter!


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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