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WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) #2774733
01/10/18 05:34 AM
01/10/18 05:34 AM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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Welcome to my new thread My tenth-- (Shouldn't I get some kind of pin or medal or gold watch or something at this point?). My previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2770606&page=1


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: hoosjim] #2774736
01/10/18 05:46 AM
01/10/18 05:46 AM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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My Sitch. Further gory details in my previous threads, of course, but this might save you some trouble:

My sitch, if you haven't been following it:

In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. By the time of BD in January, actually when I overheard convo between her and OM talking, it would have been a stretch to say we were even "friends".

I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.

Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.

Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.

I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without explicitly promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.

A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.

At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff (until very recently), and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.

We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she had been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone. Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC assigned us some reading to do as well as some self-exploration exercises, and we were supposed to circle back with her in a week or two. However, life happened and we didn't get back with MC until six weeks after that intensive.

W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling on a more regular basis, that it "helps" and that things always "seem better" right after our sessions. While she has several times mentioned IC, which we both agree is likely a must for full reconciliation, she has not yet pulled the trigger on that and has shown varying degrees of commitment to it. There have been similar ups and downs with the joint counselling-- sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse-- although she has in general been much more engaged with that than with the IC.

MC said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact--generally starting small, lighter touches, progressing to more intimate.) W agreed that 1 and 2 were necessary, and is coming around about 3, but admits it feels awkward and weird. We've had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.

About two months ago, she experienced a set-back/pull-back. She became quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even through out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the month after that time (November) was generally stagnant, maybe even kind of a downswing. She had bounced back quite a bit from that setback, though she still has "down" spells.

I am not monitoring her regularly, though I was spot checking from time to time. I've even stopped doing that now, though last check probably a month ago showed her driving by OM's old hangout... but she did not stop or go in or. And, near as I can tell, has not contacted him in any way recently.

Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and the OM. She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.)

In early December, I found out that... BFF IS DEFINITELY MOVING TO FLA (1000 miles away) when her D is final!!!! This definitely wont hurt my wife's recovery.

For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so. Since Christmas, however, I have made the time to go out a couple of times with friends, even without W.

In mid December, things turned a bit weird over a drunken kiss we "shared", and about her visit to a department store near OM's hangout. The details of that are extensive, and very pertinent my present sitch, and are detailed in my 8th thread which escalated ridiculously fast due to many many people chiming in with a number of insightful and thoughtful posts. In sum, it led to me questioning MY commitment to this process due to W's response (or lack thereof) to the kiss, her take on the likelihood of us getting physical ever again (not very), and my memory of her and OM in the not too distant past discussing in some detail how they were going to do that very thing. (She REALLY wants to live here, with me knowing she wanted and was willing to get it on with the OM, and at the same time telling me that that aint gonna happen with us? I tend to get madder every second i think about it.) Her somewhat shaky commitment to the process of MC and reconcilliation is also troublesome,

That shaky commitment somewhat carried over to my previous thread which mostly covered the holidays which were... good. W did not have much if any of her usual holiday blues, spent a bunch of time doing family and holiday stuff, celebrating, etc., was very open and active and eager regarding our trip to see her folks and mine out of state, whereas previously in the fall she had seemed very reluctant and hesitant about that. We definitely warmed up a bit during the holidays themselves, and she was becoming more receptive to touch and spending time in bed closer to or holding each other.

But just in the past few days....


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: hoosjim] #2774738
01/10/18 05:56 AM
01/10/18 05:56 AM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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W in a funk the past few days. And after being in fairly regular touch with her toxic bff over the weekend. Go figure. Can't imagine why she hangs out with and idolizes so much someone who makes her feel so crappy (and who has such sketchy values and morals), but, whatever.

She's declined a couple of invites to go out, which is new, and now come to find out she wants to meet up with bff on her "early off" day on Friday. I've come to realize I can't control who she hangs out with but... it turns out that bff's AP (who had been a friend of mine until he betrayed my own best friend--who was also a mutual friend of ours-- by having an A with my best friend's wife--my W's bff. Don't know why this bothers me so much except for the fact that a) my W didn't see fit to mention it (I found out from my own best friend-- I haven't told W I know and she has no reason to suspect I know though she knows I loathe bff's AP and that I totally disapprove of the whole situation/dynamic and b) W's bff and bff's AP are both in the know about my own W's affair-- and my W recently "lied" to me by saying that bff's AP did NOT know about it. (I let that slide because it didn't seem all that pertinent but it's been bothering me more and more.)

Anyway, I'm not going to flip out about it... I'll probably be doing something myself with friends that evening... but I am definitely not taking it as a "good sign".

Wondering at all if I should say something about it or not-- my MC would tell me in the spirit of openness and honesty that I definitely need to do so, but I am thinking that the DB-ing handbook would suggest I just ignore it.

Man I wish that troublesome trollop would just hurry the heck up and move out of state already.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: hoosjim] #2774739
01/10/18 06:07 AM
01/10/18 06:07 AM
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sandi2 Offline
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Quote:
My plan is that fairly soon-- probably after S19 goes back to college this Sunday-- I will have the talk with her about what we are working towards-- either it is a full, intimate, physical marriage, or it is nothing. I'm not going to live in a sham or "half" marriage


From what I gather, living in limbo is this side of hell. It is obvious you are a verbal person. I am, too. That was the method I saw that worked for my parents. So, when I married a non-verbal guy, I had many talks with him. One-sided talks that never led to the results I wanted. Frankly, I think you would have better results if you stopped talking as though you were leaving the M up to her. Approach her like, "This relationship we currently have is not working for me. I have decided I will not continue to live in a sham or half marriage. I don't want a friendship, I want a marriage, in every sense of the word. I will not continue a relationship where I don't know if my W is committed to our M".

I hope you get a commitment from her, but it may be only the words. I don't think she's emotionally committed. I don't think it would take that long for her to get there, if she thought you were truly out of her life. (And as long as you live in the same house, it won't have the same effect). If she thought you would not be there as her friend, whenever she wanted you, and had to actually experience it. So far, friendship is all that you've had from her.

So, what do you plan to do if you walk away from the conversation without a clear answer, or the one you desire?

Oh, and Jim, keep your talk short and simple. Tough for people like us, but it will be more effective in this particular case. ((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: sandi2] #2774749
01/10/18 06:37 AM
01/10/18 06:37 AM
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artista Offline
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Originally Posted By: sandi2

I hope you get a commitment from her, but it may be only the words. I don't think she's emotionally committed. I don't think it would take that long for her to get there, if she thought you were truly out of her life. (And as long as you live in the same house, it won't have the same effect). If she thought you would not be there as her friend, whenever she wanted you, and had to actually experience it. So far, friendship is all that you've had from her.

So, what do you plan to do if you walk away from the conversation without a clear answer, or the one you desire?

Oh, and Jim, keep your talk short and simple. Tough for people like us, but it will be more effective in this particular case. ((hugs))



and do not allow her any wiggle room... i feel as though i know what your wife is thinking... i see many similarities between her and me... you cannot allow her to have a say in how she is going to come back to the marriage... she will be vague... she will want to do things "her way." you must require immediate IC... i am baffled that you have yet to require this of her... and you must get a solid commitment from her, and not, "let's see how it goes."

i get that you love your wife, and she's hot and beautiful and everything nice, but you deserve better... you deserve a real marriage...

p.s.--we too went to a vintage local theater during the holidays... we saw Shop Around the Corner... smile

--artista

Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: sandi2] #2774752
01/10/18 06:47 AM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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I am in agreement with all you and artista are saying. My one question is timing. And this is going to come off as awfully manipulative but... I just don't want this other person involved-- should I wait until after she has had her get together with bff on Friday? The thought of her "running to bff arms" and getting all the psycho-babble "me first" bullspit that passes for support and advice with that woman makes me want to puke.

Just thinking it would be better for her to be able to digest the whole sitch on her own, without bff (who, unless I am mistaken, leaves for FL on Sunday)


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: hoosjim] #2774756
01/10/18 06:55 AM
01/10/18 06:55 AM
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Maika Offline
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Why do you think timing will make a difference? She can just easily call/skype or even take a trip out to see bff in FL and get whatever she wants from that.

You've waited a buncha times now to have this conversation. I think you need to have it and not worry about what will happen after. W will find enablers deep in the ocean floor if she wants to.


No one is coming to save you!

Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: Maika] #2774758
01/10/18 07:11 AM
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on one hand, i suppose you have waited this long... a few more days will not hurt...

on the other hand, having the conversation after bff leaves may give you a false start... i experienced false starts when i thought i would commit to my marriage because something else in my life was going bad, or i was losing something in my life...

my commitment would last for a while, and then i would fall away again (see what psysara is experiencing with her H)...

Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: artista] #2774771
01/10/18 07:58 AM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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Oh, and the other thing WRT timing, even more important, is that S19 is going back to college on Sunday. He has some mild learning disabilities (dyslexia and adhd and "cluttered hearing" type stuff and struggled last semester and only at the end started to get his feet under him. Not sure I want to be the "hinstigator" of a family crisis right before he goes back.

So think I can wait until sunday night or Monday. Will also give me a chance to do some temp checking of my own.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Re: WW, A ended, but limbo and unanswered Qs.(My 10th) [Re: hoosjim] #2774774
01/10/18 08:13 AM
01/10/18 08:13 AM
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Quote:
So think I can wait until sunday night or Monday. Will also give me a chance to do some temp checking of my own.


Like what?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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