It's been a while since I've posted, although I've been keeping an eye on what's going on with the rest of you for months now. I'm sure you already know it, but I think it's worth stating that as a community you've each provided me with inspiration to keep on going, and the knowledge that I'm truly not the only one who thinks and feels the way I do.
I noted Sotto's question around whether the MLCer ever feels remorse for what they've done - it's certainly one I have too. There was talk on another thread of the markers of a D including contempt and disgust. In retrospect I felt those very strongly, and now I know I wasn't imagining it. Somehow, whilst he was thinking about his happiness or otherwise with his marriage, my perspective was irrelevant. He truly believed that there was nothing I could do to change anything. He has never once genuinely apologised, apart from a breezy 'yeah sorry about that' when I mentioned that life had been a bit rough for the rest of the family last year.
I doubt any opportunity to do any work would've been wasted anyway, as he was sure I was to blame for his unhappiness - even though we both know he was depressed and stressed out by his job. He reneged on a previous promise to me to talk through all things and unilaterally decided what was wrong. At no point in our subsequent discussions has he ever noted that checking out of the marriage without giving me a chance as being a negative thing - as far as he is concerned that's just how it should have been.
He's now getting right into Buddhism, which I've always thought to be an odd choice for a person who has, if I may put my judgey-pants on, invited a gigantic karmic slap to come his way.
Anyway, XH is bringing OW to my home town for a 10-day, pre-Christmas visit to introduce her to his family and our mutual friends. XH didn't think I needed to know this - it was only something S18 said as an aside that alerted me. Both sons are absolutely insistent that we don't involve them in our dealings, but when they're the only ones XH effectively communicates with, well, you can see it gets a bit dodgy.
I ended up asking S18 (who has ambitions to be an actor) to play out what might have happened were I to have bumped into the happy couple in our very small town he began to understand why I was a bit miffed. I'll admit much hilarity was had when I asked him to do an improv sketch around the conversations people might have when they realised they were seeing "First Wife's Surprise Intro to OW at the Supermarket". S21's recent experience with betrayal was enough for him to empathise too. Upside: at least both sons are getting object lessons in how a little courtesy can go a long way.
Journaling -
NG is no longer around in my life. I do feel very sorry for him. I noted AndrewP's point about stringing him along, and to be sure, that's how he felt. To be fair to me, I told NG right from the start that I was a very poor relationship risk, and I never, ever gave him reason to believe I was going to be The One. I spoke to my IC about this many times, wondering if I was doing to NG what was had just been done to me by XH. She countered with 'he is making his choice to remain with you, even if what you offer isn't what you'd take. Provided what you have told me is true (it was), you have not mislead him, lied to him or promised him anything more than you're willing to give. Somehow what you offer is enough, and when it isn't he'll choose his next move.'
As they say in one of the British sitcoms I used to love, there's something in that for all of us.
Welcome to the MLC Forum. I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome thread w/lots of homework, so read and ask questions as they come along.
Welcome to the MLC Forum. You will meet people who are at various stages of dealing w/the fallout of their spouses being MIA. I am going to post below, Cadet's Welcome Posting. Please read the links and then come back and ask questions, if you should have any.
Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources. You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations. Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure. You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you! Start your homework assignments. Something to DO while you are on moderation. GAL. Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath. In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift THE GIFT OF TIME use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon _________________________ Me-63, D30,S29
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
You are on moderation on the MLC Forum. I have put in a request to have the "moderation" removed from your thread. It may take a day or so.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I get how hard this all is- If it is MLC-there is nothing you could have done to change his mind and nothing you did to cause it It is His unresolved childhood issues.. The MLCer usually follows a pattern:
they leave suddenly, find a OW sometimes younger or affair down , many are irresponsible with kids, and money- they lie, dress younger, buy cars or expensive gadgets, drugs, alcohol etc.
best to leave the kids out of it as much as possible- they will have to work out their own issues around their dad leaving
but I always felt it is best for them to know that Mom is ok and everything will work sad yes, painful yes- but not their issue or fault we will get through it-
sorry he is bringing oW around for. a pre Christmas visit and hopefully you will not bump into them may want to stay neutral if mutual friends talk about them or meet something simple -not to engage or bad mouth "Not what I want, but I wish them the best"
Just my thoughts any bad mouthing OW will make them closer and move him in that direction usually the R has to run its course and it takes a while
hang in there
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
I don't think either son thinks they were at issue or fault for XH's actions. They were as mystified as I was as to why he thought leaving was a good idea.
The OW is, according to them, "pretty cool" although I'm not sure S21 really believes that. When he first met her he pegged her as a gold digger (according to S18 who told me later), and he is known for being a very good judge of character. Having said that, his first true love cheated on him very recently, so his confidence in his ability has been a bit shaken. I think he's being a bit unfair on himself - she was only 21 too and young hearts are notoriously fickle.
Anyway, my point wasn't so much he's bringing her over to Australia for a pre-Christmas visit, nor that I have to stay neutral etc. My point was more around the absolute gut-punching shock I'd have felt were I to have run into the happy couple - in public, in a small town and with nowhere to hide. All I needed was a headsup so I'm very grateful I now know I might have to grit my teeth and smile all the while.
As far as badmouthing goes, I'm afraid to say I have been less than charitable on occasion, but the boys are pretty understanding. My biggest fear is that they learn that it's fine to just do a bunk and run whenever things get a bit tough, but both of them have assured me they believe the example they've been set is incredibly unfair. I hope it's more than just saying what I want to hear - pretty sure it is.
The badmouthing their father does about me is a different kettle of fish entirely though. Whilst he had them with him in Thailand earlier this year, he relayed them a particularly lurid, and partly untrue, tale told to him about me by XSIL. The tale involved my alleged abuse of MIL (no, didn't happen and MIL will attest) and a wild accusation of drunk driving. XSIL is known for stirring the pot - her family nickname is "Fightstarter" - earned from an early age and something the grownups have all learned the hard way.
My kids have had "never drink and drive" quoted at them chapter and verse their whole lives, and they're very fond of their Grandma, so you can imagine how angry they were with me. Eventually I worked out the reason for their disdainful, cool and disrespectful treatment of me and we sorted it out. They both told me, separately yet not long after the holiday, that their father had told them the story at dinner, and they all had a rubbishing session about me - in front of OW.
Anyway, when I remonstrated with XH last time I saw him (July) he told me he had no idea where they got their story. I reminded him they weren't in the habit of calling their family members whilst overseas (they don't even call them when they're at home) and they had both stated their information had come from him. He stated again "I didn't tell them - they must have got it from somewhere else" I asked him if he was aware he was calling the boys liars, and he simply repeated himself.
That was hard to take. Do I tell the boys that their marvellous father, who behaves like their best friend's big brother, threw them under the bus?
I've told S18 that his father's judgement of me might be a little bit skewed, and he needs to be careful of what he believes. I think I will need to reinforce that when the XH and OW come and visit, especially when they go on the road trip he's promised them.
Here's a confession that I feel only the people on this board could possibly understand.
This weekend I have been binge-watching "Grace and Frankie" on the recommendation of lots of friends who think it's hilarious, life-affirming and positively models older women's attempts to rebuild their lives when all that they know and love is seemingly destroyed.
I actually tried to watch season 1 about 3 or 4 months after BD. I couldn't get through episode 2. It was too raw, painful and close to the bone. Now I'm up to episode 8 - and whilst I've a tear-stained face, I'm strong enough to watch it and laugh - hopefully in all the right places. It feels great.
Have been trawling through the boards looking for stories of reconciliation - or even stories of MLCers actually making contact to apologise for the havoc they wreak. Real stories, not 'a friend told me' or 'I've heard it said'.
It's depressing how few of these stories I've found.
devvo - Keep in mind that this forum is in some ways like a tidal pool. It is a concentration of people whose marriages have gone off the rails in a significant way who have the depth of commitment to try to save it.
We are not representative of the greater population. Also - a huge number of people who come here for help never post, or post very little. We see few reconciliation stories in part because (I believe) that people have moved away from the "emergency room". Some are kind enough to come back and report briefly like my old acquaintance CT1118 did recently.
In my opinion, many of the people who fall into the "MLC" label are in fact cowards and are unwilling to face the destruction they have left behind. It requires a true act of courage to face and be held accountable for your past especially considering the poor choices that many on the MLC path make.
In my own case, in all honesty, I continue to be in doubt about whether my STBX will ever have that courage. From what little I know, her choices have not worked out as well as she originally thought. The general consensus is that most will not face their past unless they hit rock bottom. Many don't and I actually don't have any wish for my STBX to have her life fall apart to that degree.
I hope that helps give some perspective.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Those that reconcile may come back periodically, but generally, they are so focused on healing the hurts that were created during the crisis. They are focused on rebuilding the trust and love that were destroyed during the crisis and yes, each one that rebuilds, builds a new relationship/marriage. Many just put this all behind them once they have reconciled.
What I suggest is that people who come here, to be patient and eventually understand that it takes a lot of time for the crisis people to heal. Some do and others don't...but that doesn't mean you can't leave the door ajar....but you, the lbs, must most forward and continue to live your lives as if they may not return. Time doesn't stand still, nor should we. We have been given a gift of time and what we do w/that time is very important.
I find as much encouragement in the stories of people who do not reconcile but find their own independent happiness like Caliguy and HaWho. They still have their rough days but overall are at peace with their situations, even if things didn’t turn out how they hoped or planned.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
its true probably more don't return than do sometimes the LBS is done by the time the MLCer decides he wants another try but look at all the successful LBS here on this board that work through the crises stand for a time change grow heal and blossom Many have created new lives, new partners and have accepted the path
If you continue to work on yourself, you will also be successful either way our happiness does not rely on another person doing x or y for the LBS-it just takes time to heal and get to a better place
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Bear in mind that the success stories that reconcile seldom STAY on the boards, so what you see is a skewed population. I've seen many people here reconcile - I was even one myself for a few years until my ex went off the rails again. Don't assume that because they are a small percentage of the active accounts, that they haven't been here and moved on.
I take my hat off to people who can get through not just one, but two bomb drops, yet still take the time to post on DB boards.
For me, the devastation has been catastrophic for me - hence my nickname ("devvo" in Australian-speak is short for "devastated"). Right now things are just a wee bit tense. XH is here now, in my home town, parading his new bit of fluff and making plans to take S21 and S18 off on a road trip. Thankfully I've been spared any contact - and long may that last.
In fact, XH has gone absolutely dark in terms of contact. That in itself is strange - every other time he's been here he's made sure to catch up, even if only for discussions about property etc. We still haven't finished the property settlement, so I'm expecting him to contact me about that, but I am guessing he's going to find it much harder to meet with me for as long as OW is on this turf. That's a bit of a pain as the clock has now been set for us to get our property settlement orders through the courts now that the divorce he initiated has come through.
Something tells me he really didn't plan this out .....
Can't believe how close we came to a run-in today. Literally minutes and metres if I can go by the account S18 gave me of their lunch date with their father and his GF. Somebody must be looking after me.
Hi there everybody - hope you had the merriest of Christmases and the happiest of New Years!
Journalling:
Well, not only did XH not initiate any contact, he helped himself to a jointly-owned asset (the car our sons use) without any communication - either to ask or even to inform. He unilaterally decided he would give the vehicle to his sister for three days to use whilst he borrowed hers for the road trip. This is the same vehicle we each paid 50/50 for and for which we go 50/50 for all bills and expenses. Am I being unreasonable expecting him to at least ask if he could loan it to his sister?
I sent him a very politely worded remonstrance - it wasn't as though the action was without consequences (S18 didn't think to tell me the car wouldn't be available when he agreed to pick me up after a Christmas function) - and quite honestly I thought he was overstepping boundaries. Absolutely no response came from him.
Now, I'm waiting on him to respond to an email our agent has sent regarding our jointly-owned house. Nothing so far even though the matters are quite pressing and really need both of us to agree on the way forward.
I am so over this. I am starting to hate this man, and I know that is so counter-productive. I know I need to stop thinking about what he's doing, and with whom, but I'm finding myself obsessing over this complete lack of consideration. I know his empathy chip is broken, but it is so hard to accept that it is only broken for me (and possibly our children - I'm still processing that one).
I am also finding it so hard to believe that there wasn't anything I did to deserve this disrespect and indifference - nor can I understand how can he be so dismissive of a person he (supposedly) passionately loved for at least 20 years. I keep replaying parts of our relationship, trying to find my fatal mistake(s) - and whilst I know I was never perfect I still can't find the parts that deserved this kind of treatment.
Whilst he's usually a caring, considerate man I know he's quite capable of showing indifference towards people who consider themselves his friend, so it's pretty crazy to expect anything else I suppose. It just hurts so much.
At least my trip with the children to my parents for Christmas went well. We grew a little closer over that time, and for that I am so very grateful.
I'm sorry to read about your XH's behaviour. It is common for them to be slow or non responsive. I think they just can't really deal with difficult or onerous stuff, which feels overwhelming.
With my XH to an extent I had the same and a couple of times I used the technique of - XH, I'm going to move forward with X next Monday. However, if you have any concerns, please get in touch before then.
Or something to that effect. So you are informing and also giving them the option to halt if this isn't what they want or have concerns. I wouldn't over-use this, but for the occasional pressing thing, I think a politely worded note like the above is fine.
Take care and I'm hoping 2018 will be a great year for you xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
After a week of him being back, I've just ran into XH in the supermarket. Thankfully this trip home he didn't bring OW, so I was spared that at least. As always in this town, the possibility of such an event was always there, and it made me smile at first, because we had already arranged to meet this coming Tuesday to discuss property settlement (yeah, I know....2.5 years since BD and we still haven't done it!).
General chitchat first, where he once again moaned about his current job and how it's really horrible and he's sick of it. He also mentioned how there's nobody he's friendly with anymore (apart from one friend - the one who offered him the position we moved halfway around the world for) in XXX now that 'everybody else' has left. Currently he's living out of suitcases all over the world, unpacking only when he comes home to stay with his mum. He's deciding whether to accept a position in one of two cities a bit closer to home, both of which will require permanent relocation so he'll have to set up a home. Neither of these places will suit OW, and I've heard through the grapevine (it's been a week remember) that their relationship is on the rocks.
Then we turned to the upcoming discussions, and he made it clear he really wants to finish everything up this trip. He also made it clear he would prefer not to hang onto the houses we own, even though this is the worst property market we've had in 15 years. Anyway, I mentioned I was a bit peeved about the car incident (he admitted he was in the wrong, but still no apology) and that I am a bit over his disrespect in terms of communicating essential information. As you can imagine, the conversation ended acrimoniously with him accusing me of being 'afflicted with negativity and filled with bitterness' and me (somewhat sarcastically) asking why that might possibly be. His response? "You have chosen not to move on".
Talk about a 2 x 4. I wanted to shout at him I am fine - I am just trying to find a way, with our current trajectory, to not hate him. Not really supermarket conversation though, is it?
The funny thing is, I am moving on. I'm certainly in a lot better place than I was even 3 months ago. The other thing? He looks bloody awful. I realised there is zero attraction for me to him in physical terms, and wondered whether it was related to the realisation that the apologies I've been waiting for will likely never, ever come.
I also realised that he probably is a narcissist. That's a term I actually believe is being splashed around with far too much abandon so I'm very cautious about using it. For him though - right now, the way he is....I believe it's totally appropriate. I suspect it always will be. As far as I know it's not something sufferers (rather cynical considering the sufferers are actually those close to them) ever recover from.
Now I'm really starting to wonder if he's always been a narcissist. Is it possible to be a 'low-level' or 'functional' narcissist? I'm sure I'd have seen it in the lifetime we've known each other (we met on our 4th birthday) - but whilst I spent a good 20 years thinking he was a smart-alec with a sharp tongue, I never would've applied 'narcissist' to him.
Most of me dismisses the narc thing, and simply suspects I'm just suffering terribly from the effects of that non-functioning empathy chip (again)....but for heaven's sake!....
Even with that knowledge, another part of me is still gobsmacked that he could go for decades behaving as though he really, truly adored me and that we were in every sense best friends forever - then completely reverse everything. How on earth does that happen? How do I deal with the suspicion that a good 50% of my life was a complete and utter lie?
And how do I get through Tuesday without grinding my teeth down to stumps??
XH and I had a discussion and it came around to his plans for retirement. He's decided he wants to work 10 more years then retire to a large plot of land, as yet unpurchased, in a rural area somewhere in the back blocks of Thailand. I asked him what he was going to do with his time there and he responded "Nothing. I am just going to potter around in a workshop and perhaps fix my motorcycles." He then went on at some length giving me the strategy he's going to employ to source and then purchase the land (it doesn't involve marrying a local). Then he went on to list the possible barriers to achieving his goals - mostly political.
The funny thing was this is exactly the same discussion we had about 9 months before BD. At the time I had exclaimed "there's no way I want to live in the middle of nowhere in a country I don't know, where nobody speaks English and I can't even read the writing!" Apparently that was the wrong thing to say back then, and I sensed it would have been the wrong thing to say now. Apart from noting that I may well have dodged a bullet, I wondered why a person might actually want to do as he plans.
Does anybody here have any ideas? Why would anybody want to live somewhere with dodgy electricity, water, healthcare and politics whilst battling social exclusion, constant discrimination and quite possibly boredom? I suspect it's down to his constant, unrelenting exhaustion brought on by a life of travelling. Even with that though, I still don't see the attraction.
It sounds like a dream of his. In MLC, they dream of places that they want to go to and experience. If he's planning to work an additional ten years, this dream may not happen at all. I would just listen and nod my head because he may very well change his mind in another 6 months. Ten years is a long time away and who knows what may happen within that time span.
Focus on today and let the future unfold. There is no sense in being concerned about something that may or may not happen in ten years. Keep the focus on you.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Many may use these types of distractions from avoiding living in today
I think many a MLCer may desire withdrawal from society and an isolated life and usually all fantasies look and sound better to the one with the fantasy but when actual reality hits or they find themselves there...its not at all what they thought they wanted
I agree with Job listen and nod
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
I agree with job and peace...it sounds like he is living in or wanting to live in fantasy land. I'm sure we can all agree that we have an "unrealistic" dream that we would like to become real, but his sounds like a total escape from reality.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Well - it proved to be a very successful way of escaping me. I was clearly never a part of his dream and I suppose that's why I spend a fair bit of time wondering if I have romanticised a great deal of our relationship.
The other thing that I can't help wondering is whether all of this had to happen. XH had never had a relationship with anybody before me - and we were married at 27. I had rejected him once, mainly because he seemed so 'unfinished'. We got back together again about a year after that, when he made an all-out attempt to woo me back. I made it much easier for him because I had already realised he had all the qualities I wanted in a husband, and I really missed him. I always worried though if he would wonder if he had done the right thing by marrying me. Clearly, I had good reason.
You loved him the way a spouse should love. That is all that we can do. What they are going thru is not of our making, but something that they have to resolve on their own. As many have shared here...we did not break them and we cannot fix them. They have to do that themselves.
I actually just had a similar conversation with my w's sister. She is still in disbelief that her, once BFF sister, was able to drop her like she never existed. The old relationship is gone and there is no way of getting it back. Remember the good things that were there because obviously you are the only one that will. Work on loving yourself and becoming who you are supposed to be. God put you here for a reason and it is up to us to find out what that is.
If our sig-others decide at some later date that they want to be with us, then it will be our decision as to what we do. I pray that we actually will be able to make a choice, but we will have to wait on that and waiting is always the hardest part.
I feel your pain, but know that you are in our thoughts and prayers daily.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
S19 and I live in fairly close quarters, and occasionally we overhear things we'd rather not. This time though, I was amazed at the conversation I overheard him having with a new friend whose parents split when she was 2.
Amongst other things, S19 and friend discussed the way XH left us. For the first time I (over)heard that he'd told the kids he had dreams he wanted to follow and that he knew I wouldn't be on board with them, so he had to leave. S19 spoke of us all being gobsmacked and dumbfounded, and how angry he was with the way his father dealt with it all.
Then he spoke of the love he had for his father, but how he cannot idolise him anymore because XH hurt me so much. The friend saw all the obvious things straight away - how it is unthinkable to blast away 25 years of marriage in a single barrage of words and actions. How it's so wrong to tell the world that you love somebody then tell that same person you haven't loved them for years.
A few more things came out about XH's family and their treatment of me - which goes some way to explaining why he seems so reluctant to do the family visitations his father pays him to do. Yes, you read that right, S19 gets paid by XH to visit his grandmother and do whatever little odd jobs she wants done. It's a constant source of conflict between the three of them - grandma is always complaining to XH (and even to me when I saw her at the supermarket last week) that S19 is very unreliable with his visits. I'm glad I'm well out of that one!
The sad thing is S19 says he's still devastated about how his father left and believes it's the underlying cause for the anger that seems to be constantly simmering. I think I should probably get him into some counselling - but I don't think that is going to be an easy task. I have been encouraging him to visit his grandma too, which I will continue to do because I think he owes it to himself to stay as connected to all of his family as possible.
Having said all that, I have to say I'm so proud of this young man for being as perceptive, forgiving and loving as he is, bearing in mind how angry he feels towards the man he used to worship. I can only wonder if one day his father works out that when he abandoned us (this is the word S19 uses) he set himself an enormous task - to regain the respect he was once given in spades. I also worry that S19 will do the same thing as his father when he reaches mid life. Does anybody have any insights about how best to MLC-proof the offspring of MLCers?
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Wow - I take that to mean that D knows that W is in the throes of an MLC? Was that something she worked out for herself? How old was she when she felt the sting of your W's behaviour?
One thing I'm hopeful of is that if MLC is rooted in some kind of childhood or adolescent trauma my kids will be spared. Whilst S19 (who was 16 at BD) felt the full force of his father's abandonment, there was never any physical mistreatment nor were there any scathing attacks on his character. XH never said anything about the kids nor how they negatively impacted his 'freedom', although I suppose his lack of empathy and engagement probably did some damage.
XH's father was a bit of a monster, who reserved manifesting the worst bit of his violent nature for his son. Whilst XH's sisters were never physically mistreated, the old man heaped the scorn and disrespect that XH was treated with fairly evenly amongst his children. I suspect that is a big part in the punishing quest for perfection/achievement XH and his siblings appear to embrace.
In contrast, both S21 and S19 agree that their childhood was idyllic so I can only hope that the trauma that S19 felt when he was 16 will be dealt with before he embarks on a long-term relationship. Both of my boys have talked with each other about their feelings around the divorce, and both of them appear to have reached the conclusion that there are ways to go about conflict resolution that don't include detonating the family unit. However, XH used to say the same sort of thing - so who knows if recognition of bad behaviour is any indicator?
Gordie, if it's true that MLC is rooted in some kind of unresolved childhood trauma, do you believe your D is going to have anything to worry about?
The way I look at it is a bit different than what is canon here.
MLC is not listed in the psychological diagnostic manual to my understanding and is not accepted as a professional diagnosis.
I talked to my own therapist about it and concerns that I had of me following a similar path of dancing with the fairies. She assured me that since I was asking that question that there was little risk. Self-awareness she seemed to indicate was key. It is talked about here that the "MLC" person needs to deal with their issues. I know that my ex certainly was very avoidant of any sort of introspection especially if it was not positive.
There's some talk here and a lot of talk on other sites about narcissism, cluster-B disorders, bi-polar and a lot of other labels. I think if we take off our rose-coloured glasses and think of our spouses we can certainly see that they had some strong selfish characteristics.
Being able to do selfish things even though they hurt others is a key factor. I do know that my own son has many personality traits like his mother and like you both, I worry about him following a similar path in years to come.
Now - with that being said, if you dig around some of the older threads, there does indeed seem to be some commonality of early abuse / loss, depression and unresolved issues. I would argue - completely without authority - that there are lots of people who have those problems and don't go off with the fairies. Given the astoundingly large percentage of people who are seen here to go into a "MLC" and there are so few "returns" and of those many of them go dancing off again, I do have my doubts about the process as it is laid out here. But again - non-professional and only anecdotal information.
I think that for me, the best that I can do is to model good behaviour for my son. He is well aware of the impact that infidelity has had on me. He has a generally kindly soul. But - so did his mother I thought and she had a horror of infidelity and disgust with her cheating father and sister. Until she started cheating too. He perhaps has also seen the cost of her infidelity - which his mother never saw since her parents and siblings stayed together despite the cheating.
Not sure if that helped - just my thoughts.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I think the introspection thing is quite probably the key too.
I've just read an article in Psychology Today, by a woman called Pamela Haag around the concept of "same bed, different dream" and how a seemingly happy marriage can have two people with vastly differing perspectives. In this woman's opnion, when one of the couple decides their wants/desires are incompatible with the marriage, it's time to split.
I found myself feeling extremely negative towards this so-called popular psychologist. Unfortunately, she painted my sitch with almost perfect strokes - then threw in a glib "there's nothing to forgive, for there was nothing to be done, worked on" etc etc. Basically, she figures my marriage was always going to have a use-by date because, unbeknown to me, it turned out XH's dreams were so different to mine.
I can honestly say I did my due diligence well before I got married, just to make sure he and I were on the same page. There was no issue I could see being a problem. During the marriage I asked many times whether our dreams could be compatible, and whenever I did that I got an affirmative answer. Quite clearly he didn't know what his dreams were, or they changed - and just as clearly he thought whatever mine were, they were not compatible with his.
I strongly disagree with Haag's opinion that there are no conversations to be had around differing dreams. I also believe that dreams are as dreams do - that there needs to be some kind of dream evaluation technique that can be used to classify them for achievability. It might stop people throwing their lives away on a dream that is so unrealistic or crazy it's not worth following.
Anyway, I can see there are glib, well-respected folk around who fuel selfish people's notion that they should do whatever feels good, whenever they like, regardless of who they hurt. That you can sign up in good conscience to a lifetime deal, then bail out without consequences whenever you decide your dreams are incompatible.
I'd bet money on the notion that XH signed up for this woman's newsletters!
Yeah that's BS. I'd bet dollars to donuts that psychologist was a walkaway herself.
Sure, you can have two people whose goals in life are completely different - but they don't usually suddenly become that way after years of marriage. And the whole point of marriage is that you work through things like that and compromise on them. I was EXTREMELY flexible in my marriage and would have accommodated any of my ex's dreams - didn't save me.
I agree with Andrew. Two things stood out to me from the beginning of my marriage. The first is the selfishness, and the second was a very low intellectual quotient/shallowness of feeling.
Whilst I know it was there, my XH's selfishness was very cleverly disguised. He used to do so many wonderful things for me and anybody else he said he loved. I think Acts of Service is his LL.
To be honest, XH was always a lovely man - I used to marvel how he could be so kind, mature, resilient, humorous and capable. I really, really admired and respected him. I loved that man to bits.
These days I wonder how he managed to hide the person he is today - the one that must've been lurking inside - for as long as he did. Truly, this man deserves an Oscar.
Devvo - The person they are during their crisis may not be the person they were before - or the person they will be after. If he truly was a lovely man before the crisis there is some hope he might eventually become that man again.
That being said - some of us can't see our spouses for who they are until the rose colored glasses come off. I didn't really see what a narcissist my ex was until months after he had left - then it really became clear that he had always been one, just got worse in middle age. So long as you made him look good and went along with his enthusiasms, you were golden. If he felt you didn't reflect well on him, or were interested in something he couldn't be bothered with - not so much.
Sometimes I wonder if I wore rose coloured glasses and think I must have done so. Other times I know that the yearning I feel for the man XH was is the same yearning I know my parents and our good, mutual friends feel too. It's like he's another person. By most accounts he's harder, more selfish and far less amusing these days.
In any case, I have to go on as though this good man has died. I have no guarantee he'll be back, or if he did come back that I'd still be a part of his life. This is the hardest part of acceptance - knowing what could've been and seeing what is.
I'm with KML. I think there is some truth to the person we are seeing now. That someone had that inside of themselves to emerge, whether under depression, stress, etc., still demonstrates that they had it inside of them.
The best advice I got was that when I was wallowing in the man I missed and what he was doing, that I should focus on how unhappy I was in the marriage instead. That really opened my eyes to what I had been tolerating for a very long time.
I wasn't unhappy for the bulk of our marriage. Neither was he - he even told me so himself on the evening of BD. It was only the last 18 months or so of it that was less than stellar - and all that time I thought it was only because he was tired and stressed and under the hammer.
I think this is the reason I have found it so hard to move on. To deal with this I have focussed as much as I can on those uncomfortable 18 months. As you say - reminding myself of those horrible, heartbreaking moments is great aversion therapy. Would I want to do that again? No...freakin'...way!
I think we all wore some rose colored glassss during m
You are now questioning
And that can be healthy
Just do not get stuck there
W has said this is who she always was
She was faking it for twenty years
She fooled me
And the kids
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Devvo, there can be a lot of bad moments in 18 months. I had 2 bad years, 3 so-so years, and 20 or more good years. But focusing on the good, the past, the gone, doesn't bring me peace and it certainly didn't help me let go.
Absolutely agree, I think focussing on the good from the past most certainly does not help to move on. Quite the reverse.
Gordie, obviously if your W is telling the truth now she has been lying for 20 years. I'm sure this is one of the things the DB'ing mantra "believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see" is all about. Nevertheless, it begs the question - who would to want to spend their life with a deceitful, duplicitous and manipulative person?
Apropos of Ciluzen's story, the other question I have is "who had the emotional power in the relationship when things were 'good'?" If it was me, could XH's actions really be a reaction to that? Did I inadvertently abuse the power I thought I had to the point XH couldn't take any more?
If I did, I know where I have to be careful for the next relationship. I will anyway of course - I never want to be hurt like this again. Ever. That, more than anything makes it hard to move on - because moving on may well take me back to this pit, and falling back into the pit after being out of it for a while would have to be, well, the absolute pits!
Today XH texted me to say that one of his mentors in our home town recently passed away after a long battle with cancer. This guy was somebody XH looked upon with the respect one would often give to a father, so whilst not quite a father figure, he was one of the very, very few people XH went out of his way for.
This is the first death in close proximity, as it were, that XH has had to deal with in a long time. I am wondering whether it will lead him to ask really big questions about his life and how he's living it. I really, really hope so.
XH has spent much of the time since BD (nearly 3 years) convincing me to sell the family home in a market that is as dire as it's ever been. At first I actively resisted, hoping that he'd come to his senses and see the light, and we'd be able to move back into it with our semi-independent children. Then, when everything went sour and we got divorced I resisted selling it a) because I was still emotionally attached and b) the market really is dire.
Last trip home (in February), XH informed me that he really, really wanted to sell the house so he could liberate some income to realise his dream of buying a big block of land in Nowheresville, Thailand. You may recall I posted about this dream and how odd I thought it was.
Anyway, recently the opportunity to put the house on the market came up at about the same time I came to a number of realisations about the house, my relationship to it and my fast-waning connection to XH. I was finally happy to free myself of it and all that it represented. It has not come without a lot of sadness, pain and lost sleep.
So, I got quotes for advertising, agents' fees, legal fees etc etc and let the property manager know that we did not need tenants. I sent XH all the info I had last night and let him know that we had to give the potential listing agent the order to go ahead with everything today (my time).
To complicate matters, the property manager (a hardy soul who doesn't give up easily) informed us both yesterday that he'd found potential tenants who were happy to sign a 12 month lease at a rent that whilst nowhere near enough to cover the mortgage was better than nothing. The rent is less than what we've been receiving for the whole time since BD, mind you, so I truly thought it would make no difference to XH's mindset - he's been wanting to sell up for ages.
I woke this morning to a text from him stating he wanted to take the tenants' offer and consider selling the house in 12 months time. I haven't had a WTF moment like this for 3 years! Does anybody have any insight into why he'd do such a 180?
There is really no telling why he's changed his mind. However, at times, when someone pushes and pushes to get a person to do something and that person continues to refuse to do it and then at some point changes their mind...that's when the person who has been doing the pushing will change up and want something different. In other words, you may have taken fuel away from his fire and he now has nothing to argue w/you about.
Now that you've made up your mind to sell...will you continue moving forward w/that thought or will you go along w/him and rent out the house?
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I can't sell without his agreement, so now I have to go along with him.
I asked him what made him reverse his opinion in the 24 hour period between saying he wanted to sell and then saying he wanted to hold. He told me he'd done some reading that suggested our market was going to improve. I found that odd, because that 24 hour period was spent flying and working, with very limited access to the internet. I'm guessing he'd reread a recent article we'd joked about in our local newspaper (written by a real estate agent in breathless hyperbole) imploring those who loved a bargain to 'get in quick before they're all gone'.
He had already dismissed this article when he told me he wanted to sell, but I guess it must've gotten to him. He likely decided he didn't want to be seen as a patsy who sold his family home at the bottom of the market. To be honest, neither do I, so I suppose I have my answer. It's pride.
So, the time limit for filing the consent orders for the property settlement has come and gone and guess what? We still haven't got consent orders.
I've ended up having to drive this whole thing. I organised the negotiations between us both, summarised our agreement, found the lawyer, worked with him on the first draft of the agreement, and now I'm issuing the reminders to get this done.
I've been nice. I've been patient. I've done everything required and requested. The lawyer and I worked overtime to get the draft agreement done in time to coincide with a visit XH (and young GF) made recently. He had informed me he intended to hunt for his personal effects in my storeroom whilst he was here, to which I agreed so I fully expected to be able to get his signature on the draft. I was ready and waiting and all I've heard is.....crickets.....
Unfortunately it appears he's too busy to actually get the orders completed. I have no idea why he won't take what is basically his design, and get the deal done. OK - that's not true. It seems obvious he really doesn't want to engage in any way, shape or form, so he just isn't.
A part of me wonders (maybe even hopes) if he wants to avoid finalisation because he doesn't want everything to be done, dusted and finalised. That he somehow wants to maintain a thread - something that he can use to work his way back to me if he chooses. How ridiculous is that????
He is one of those crisis people who stomps their feet when it comes to getting things done. He may have thought getting the paperwork done would be a clear snap, but he's come to realize that it's a lot of work. Now, he will let it sit and allow you to do the heavy lifting and then say that you drove the bus to finalize things. Your h's lack of willingness to complete the paperwork reminds me so very much of my xh. It's very frustrating.
I hope he'll get his act together soon.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Thanks job - but I'm truly perplexed. He never drags his feet - he was always the kind of person who was super organised and efficient, even for things that he didn't really like doing. He is also not afraid of heavy lifting - he's a powerhouse, especially when there's something in it for him. In this case, he would get rid of me out of his life forever - which was actually a stated objective when we first split - and divest himself of what is quite a large liability. His reluctance to do so is very odd.
You have got me wondering though if my actions will allow him to believe that the whole D was my idea. That would certainly suit him. He hates being the person in the wrong, and I suspect he can see well enough that what he did to me was absolutely appalling.
The other news is that XH was recently here to celebrate XMIL's big birthday. I was completely left out of the family celebrations, but I decided my beef wasn't really with her, so I bought her a present I knew she'd love and sent it along with a card to be delivered by S19. She sent me a lovely text of thanks (they're a polite family - which is why XH's general rudeness towards me is jarring) and that was that.
Unfortunately, a close neighbour and mutual friend died a nasty death at around the same time as XH's visit. XMIL and both XSIL's and I ended up at the wake and chatted for ages. It was lovely to have a normal conversation and to wish XMIL a happy birthday in the flesh, even if we were in amongst a roomful of elephants. I was also told later by a friend that XSIL2 had actually referred to me as her SIL - something I thought she'd never do, particularly because XH and his GF had only just left town.
Job, has your XH ever reached out to you? Do you know why he dragged his feet so much?
Most of them drag their feet - they want the Zipless Divorce (Like the Zipless F__k in Fear of Flying, where clothes just magically fall off without buttons or zippers to ruin the mood. ) They can't be bothered with the real WORK of divorce paperwork - they just want to be magically FREEEEEEEE!
I read a study somewhere about how the majority of divorces are initiated by women - from my reading here, I'd venture that half those women were forced into action by WAHs who just wouldn't get the paperwork done.
Most of them drag their feet - they want the Zipless Divorce (Like the Zipless F__k in Fear of Flying, where clothes just magically fall off without buttons or zippers to ruin the mood. ) They can't be bothered with the real WORK of divorce paperwork - they just want to be magically FREEEEEEEE!
I read a study somewhere about how the majority of divorces are initiated by women - from my reading here, I'd venture that half those women were forced into action by WAHs who just wouldn't get the paperwork done.
There was a recent article in the Annals of Improbable Research about the invention of a bra that would come off automatically when hearing clapping. Lots of fun for the whole family
My own ex was very much a cake-eater who wanted to keep me in reserve. Perhaps she still does. No clue. I do think that the only reason that she filed for the actual divorce was because her lawyer wrote that down when I suggested it and then filled out the paperwork (complete with mistakes) for her. I really got the impression that she was strapped to a horse not of her own choosing on the path to an unknown destination.
I do still think that she didn't want that finality - not until she was sure of her safe landing on the other side which wasn't the case last year and perhaps still isn't.
So looking at it from my point of view - I wanted her to be the one who filed because - to be honest - I didn't want to be "the bad guy". For the bulk of my marriage I was the organized one who got things done. If she'd resisted then I would have filed myself.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
The odd thing is XH served the divorce papers on me long before we were even close to negotiating a property agreement. The divorce itself wasn't really necessary (unless he wanted to remarry, which he said he didn't) - it was the property settlement that should've been his priority. He's deeply interested in money, spending a lot of time documenting the money he was going to pay, and why - but somehow the property settlement seemed to be a bit too much for him.
We split in August 2015, with official separation date set by him at 1 October 2015. I didn't know we'd really, truly, 100% separated until he told me in December (when I asked) that he had taken off his wedding ring as the plane left town after he helped me move into my apartment - which was November 2015. That was a nice little Christmas present - not.
He also blindsided me when he served the divorce papers on me in September 2017 - another thing he did without any warning or reference, even though we'd been communicating up until that point. Unfortunately the divorce automatically set the property settlement deadline to October 2018. He knew all of this - but just couldn't seem to get his act together to do this final, major act of separation.
I think he likes doing two things: blindsiding me, and controlling how and when everything related to us happens. If I want it, he doesn't - and vice versa.
In other news, S19 has finally admitted he is deeply angry with XH, blaming him for the years of mental anguish, depression and anxiety he has suffered since XH abandoned him. He is writing a letter to his father, in as loving a way as he can, as a form of therapy. I'm not sure if S will ever send XH the letter, but I'm glad he's doing something positive about dealing with the fallout.
XH still won't accept his actions have had a negative impact on anybody. He truly believes we are all living more happily ever after, and if we aren't, it's because we simply won't move on, and accept that we are where we are. No care - no responsibility on his behalf. It's all everybody else's fault if they're unhappy. It's also our fault if he is.
This is such toddler-like behaviour I'm going to start calling him Mr Maturity from now on.
Just curious, what happens now that the deadline has passed and the property settlement is not done? What are the options? What are the repercussions? Who bears the greater risk of loss in this scenario?
I suppose I would allow that to be the deciding factor in whether I did the mop up for him. If I had the consequences, I would just see that as looking after my own interest. If he did, I would say, oh well, your loss, do it when you want/or must/or can.
It's really unclear actually. I've asked my L and I'm yet to get an answer. I've read a couple of cases where things have gone awry for, say, a woman who was a stay at home mum, and who wanted a better settlement after dragging her heels. She didn't get it.
I've also read that the fact there was no property settlement allowed a divorced XH to swoop in on his XW's superannuation fund years and years after agreeing he wouldn't.
I suspect it's just a chance for a free-for-all - especially for the lawyers.
I think (and I may well be wrong) that XH almost gave me an apology the last time I saw him. That happened in September when I literally (and accidentally ) ) ran into him in the supermarket with my trolley. To be fair, he *had* failed to make the contact he said he'd make during his last visit to our home town, literally only hours before he boarded the plane, and we still hadn't met to discuss the property settlement as we'd agreed.
Actually, I was very cautious as he had gotten to a very nasty point in the process quite a few months earlier where he threatened to renege on everything we'd agreed, then went further, stating he wanted to force me and our son out of the apartment I jointly own with him. I had waited him out, hoping he'd get over whatever what bugging him, and that turned out to be a good move.
When I ran into him he looked a bit panicky, then quickly let me know he wanted to go back to our original agreement. After I established he meant the one that I was happy with, he promised he'd email a written agreement that I could send to the lawyer to be drafted up for signature. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened, (nor did I think it would), but the positive thing was that he then went on to look very uncomfortable before stuttering and murmuring that he 'didn't mean to cause any grief'. Of course he did - but at least he had the decency to look abashed - and in all my dealings with him that is probably as much as I could ever expect in terms of anything approaching an apology.
Then, on Christmas Day he sent me an unsolicited greeting that was warm and possibly sincere - much more than I've seen out of him for years.
And now, something else has caught my eye.
XH uses Whatsapp, with an accompanying motto that is something pithy and meaningful to him. Since our split in 2015 he's had three.
Up until about 6 months ago it was "If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room".
Six months ago it changed to "Every day brings a new opportunity".
Then last week it changed to "And if you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you".
If I didn't know better, I'd swear I was seeing signs of a growing maturity.
) ) ran into him in the supermarket with my trolley. To be fair, he *had* failed to make the contact he said he'd make during his last visit to our home town, literally only hours before he boarded the plane, and we still hadn't met to discuss the property settlement as we'd agreed.