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Hi NYGal,

Glad to see you around! I'm happy to hear that you are still working on things with W, and I'm sorry that you still don't have complete transparency in your R. Are you still in couples' counseling? Would it be a thought to bring up your gut feeling there to see if W will decide to come clean?

I would have such a hard time being with someone who was lying to me. I agree that patience is key, but I think it should be addressed somehow.


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15
Separated 4/16
WH moved OW in 5/16
Divorced 6/15/17
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Just wanted to pop in and say hi. I have no real advice. Playing marriage cop really [censored]. Been there, getting out. Good luck to you, you're one of my favorite people here and I hope you are happy and will continue to be happy.



The future is as bright as you demand it be.
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Tx, aw shucks, thanks! I've been seeing your posts here and there. I'm gathering that your M has gotten rocky again - or is over from what you just said? Gosh, I'm so sorry. Really sorry.
Painter, yes, we are in therapy and it's helping. I just went today for a solo session and MC suggested that I just express my fears in general - since I'm not ready to let on yet that I know she's not being transparent.
Stormchaser, thanks for your explanation that it can all be very innocent and meant to protect me and my feelings. Yes, it's true that merely mentioning sow's name gets me down. I do think the meeting was purely business. It's just so, so hard to really trust again.
And Cristy, I have Michelle's book on Healing from Infidelity and I have read only a little. Lazy I guess. I remember thinking I wish I had it when we first got back together. So even though I haven't read it all, I can attest to its helpfulness. I'm taking a trip to Los Angeles this weekend. I'll read it there.
Thanks everyone.
She continues to be super sweet and nice and reassuring.
The work continues.


11/4/15 W revealed EA/2 months later became PA with co-worker
Reconciling since late April 2016
Don't give up until it's time, then move on
Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat
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Hi everybody. Is it wrong to snoop when you're building trust but you just don't believe it and then when you check there are more work-related emails and now they involve a project they have to work on and a report that has to be produced by August 1st? Ironically it's a report to address the latest scandal to hit this crazy place we (all) work. And so the homewrecking ow is in charge of making sure W's department is ethical. And she has to work on it with W! You couldn't make this stuff up.
WTF?


11/4/15 W revealed EA/2 months later became PA with co-worker
Reconciling since late April 2016
Don't give up until it's time, then move on
Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat
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That's a tough one, NY.

I know you probably have some PTSD from the last time so this is probably triggering your fears.

I think for me, if I were in your shoes, I would trust but verify. If W being in communication with OW is work mandated, there's not much you can do. She might not tell you because she doesnt want you to flip out about something that's not there.

Keep working on you and your relationship for the time being. If W is up to something sneaky, you will find out.

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I just don't get why she can't be honest with me. We had the ironclad agreement, that if there were texts, phone calls, emails, she would tell me. Work or personal. In fact, especially work because why would she tell me if they were personal, since if they are communicating on a personal level we are DONE. W is incapable of setting boundaries. Yesterday they spoke on the phone for over 35 minutes. I could see it because our phone system at work shows when a line is in use. I stared at that for the entire time and saw them hang up at exactly the same time. I think it drove me a little insane and I lost it last night. W admitted only to a 15 minute convo (lie), insisted that was all and that there was nothing personal. But then as the truth came out, she said she shared her frustrations about the latest scandal to hit our great institution with sow. She said sow "understands".

I broke down. Lost it completely. The reason for the call may have been work, but 35 minutes later is that ALL it was? SOW is the shot of cheap whiskey in front of the recovering alcoholic sitting at a bar. Yesterday W downed that shot. What's next?

I am embarrassed at my behavior last night and I certainly didn't further my cause at all. Every little lie that I knew was a lie I jumped on, screaming and yelling. I accused her of all sorts of things. Vulgar things. I don't know how to recover from all this. She actually held my hand and kissed me goodbye when she left this morning to go golf. I will have the day to myself as I do every Saturday to reflect on this.

In some ways I envy all those whose marriages ended after the affair, all those who have the chance to move on and start over. This hell of doubt and uncertainty is unbearable sometimes. How can anyone build trust when the WAS continues to lie and break agreements, even when (I suspect) there is nothing going on (yet) with the (former) ow? What happens after the alcoholic takes that first drink after all those months of nothing? What happens when there's another phone call and other work project?


11/4/15 W revealed EA/2 months later became PA with co-worker
Reconciling since late April 2016
Don't give up until it's time, then move on
Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat
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(((NYGal))) I am so sorry. It hurts so, so much :-(

I wanted to offer you some support because I do feel your pain, especially when you question what things would be like had you just moved on after the A. My H has zero contact with OW and I still wonder what it would be like if he didn't come back. I think that is perfectly normal and par for the course. The thing is, piecing is very hard work, but we can't really compare it to ending the M. They are just completely different paths with different ups and downs. When I read other threads of people that went their separate ways and even chose to (coconut for example), it is not just easier, but it's different and I see sadness and self doubt too.

I think it is fine to verify (snoop) that she is living up to the agreement, and especially considering that they work together and you know there is contact. Others here may not agree with me and that is okay; I am not saying either opinion is right or wrong. Honestly, I don't know how you do it. I couldn't (and wouldn't) tolerate my H having any contact with OW. To take it a step further, I don't think I could tolerate him even wanting to have contact with her. A big part of my willingness to work on the M and work on forgiving H has to do with his regret about what happened and therefore he has some disgust for how he behaved (and consequently towards her).

I am not suggesting that you should adopt my attitude, not at all! I am trying to sympathize with how much harder this must be for you. A large part of my motivation for forgiving H is because he has demonstrated over and over in the last 2 years that the A was a mistake, that he regrets it, and that he would want nothing to do with her. The topic makes him uncomfortable and ashamed and he wishes he could erase it and her. If he had to see her, work with her, or remain in contact with her, the entire dynamic would be different. I can't see how you can respect a coworker and work with them if you are trying to move past an A (if considered a mistake or addiction) with them. I honestly don't get it.

When you describe the addiction of the A to addiction to alcohol, well I am not sure how similar they are. I wonder if someone who has had an addiction can speak better to that? If it were true, then I would think this A would have been continuing more than it has. She is right there all the time, no? It does not appear that she wants a R with her does it? ... It does seem that they have some sort of friendship and that she isn't honest with you about that. ... I can absolutely see how unsettling that would be for you! If she is trying work on trust, then I would think she would cut her off and have as minimal contact as possible. Then she would need to offer complete transparency, "OW called today and we spoke for 35 minutes about XYZ. She called me for this reason. This is how I felt during the call. I am sorry if that is hard for you to hear."

Is that asking too much? I don't know, maybe. But the point is that their R (even if only about work) is causing you a lot of stress and anxiety. It seems to be impeding the piecing process. My first thought is that what can you guys do to change this entire situation? A lot of people do move and change jobs after an A (our MC told us that because OW does not live far from us and our kids are still friends). So even if that would be very difficult or feels impossible, I have to wonder if what you are doing now is any easier? From my side of the screen it looks like torture!

I gotta hand it to you, you are one strong lady. I couldn't do what you are doing. Please don't be so hard on yourself for getting upset and angry. Of course you are upset and angry! If we hold it in and live with daily anxiety/stress, well eventually it will come out. I'm sorry, but is sounds like your W needs a kick in the pants. ... You don't have to beat yourself up over it or even show her your weakness. Maybe the best course of action is to step back, create space for yourself, and start really really thinking about how long you can live this way. Maybe you need something to change.

Keep posting. We have your back. I wish I had something better to add.

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Hey NYGal,

I read your threads from start to finish and to see you post is like me seeing a celebrity. OMG OMG smile

Quote:
In some ways I envy all those whose marriages ended after the affair, all those who have the chance to move on and start over. This hell of doubt and uncertainty is unbearable sometimes.


It breaks my heart to hear you say this. I remember reading how torn apart you are without W. Maybe it would be helpful for you, when you're feeling pessimistic, to go back and read them again yourself? I'd hate for you to be having grass is greener type thoughts, because from everything I've read, the two of you really love one another.

Quote:
We had the ironclad agreement, that if there were texts, phone calls, emails, she would tell me. Work or personal. In fact, especially work because why would she tell me if they were personal, since if they are communicating on a personal level we are DONE.


Okay, is this agreement in writing? Or is it sort of vaguely out there? Because I would put it in writing. Your W is toeing the line, probably because the agreement isn't solid and undeniable.

I believe, along with others, that she is probably not telling you because she fears your reaction. She has to work with W (my understanding is she has a high-profile gig with not too many other local opportunities for similar, so it wouldn't be easy nor desirable to leave her work).

Quote:
I broke down. Lost it completely.


While I empathize totally, and would probably do the same, I think this is working against your own self-interest.

I see a terrible cycle happening here. You're watching W's actions for any hint that you'll be hurt again. W has to interact with exOW for work, and isn't being fully forthcoming with you about it. Most likely it is because she fears an emotional reaction and conflict from you, not because she is going to cheat again (but we don't know that for sure.) Knowing she's not disclosing the truth allows you to grow hurt and resentment, while you monitor her more closely, and W continues to work with exOW while mostly hiding it from you. And then your resentment explodes and you get emotional, thus confirming for W that she is doing the right thing by not telling you.

This cycle is a huge problem. You know it and I bet W would agree, too.

For you, I think the cycle has another downside: it's handing W the upper hand in the relationship. She gets to choose the path that things go, and you're the emotional one. Let's get back to an emotionally-equal partnership.

What I would do is get it on the table in a contract. Super sexy, right?

I think you should have a signed agreement that for x period of time, W will tell you of any and all interaction. In return for this honesty, you will do your best to have a calm response with an assumption that W is trustworthy. In order to minimize emotional bonds, W will treat exOW like a disliked coworker, keep interaction all business and minimize anything resembling emotional bonding.

This would be a win/win for both of you. What you need from her would be out there. What she needs from you would be out there. She'd know that if both parties did their best to adhere to the contract, trust would be restored enough that the contract would no longer be needed (i.e. this isn't endless.)

W really has to understand that her dishonesty in the past has consequences, and being totally open with you is a consequence. Secrets are destructive.

And you could still trust but verify for however long you need to, but do know that is probably going to grow unhealthy and obsessive for you at a certain point.

Put some thought into a written contract to try to get a new healthier cycle going. Right now you're both spiraling down and I want better for you.

And, for you NYGal, in reading your threads, I worry for you. I think you let W back pretty easy, and I don't think you got to the point where you were fully confident on your own and not willing to tolerate BS. So I think it's so incredibly important that you are in IC with a focus on emotional resiliency and resisting making W the absolute center of your life. In my opinion, those were some of the contributors to your original R problems.

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I saw your post, and although I've been around on and off for over a year, I didn't recall your sitch, so I went back and read all your posts from start to reconciliation.

First, it was good to see some of Wonkas posts, her and Sandi2 really helped me a lot, or at least tried to get me to help myself, and just want to say that I hope she's doing well, I know she had a lot of family stuff going on.

Wow, I envy you, your strength in what you've been able to accomplish thus far demonstrates the love you and your W have for each other. It's possible that my sitch would have resulted in piecing, but unlike you (and maybe a little like you) I was not able to get past my W continuing to have contact with OM (they both volunteered at a fire dept).

You're so far past where I got, that I hesitate to comment, but I do have some understanding of where you are (with the contact) and the snooping to get the truth. I believe feeling that you need to snoop will become detrimental to you and if you can't get past the "need to do so", your MR.

I would suggest two things:
#1 it's first because I agree with cadence, you need to get back to working on you. This needs to be first so that you don't do things, or not do things, because you fear losing her. You need to want to stay with your W, not stay because your afraid of losing her.

#2 have that dreaded discussion, tell her what you know, but more importantly why you looked, how it makes you feel, and what you need moving forward. While I don't know that a written contract would make a difference, it may be easier to relay your boundaries if they are clearly written out, since conversations tend to get sidetracked and things can be forgotten. It is important you have boundaries, and with that, for your own sanity you have to be willing to enforce them and she needs to be clear on that.

As for your comment that it's easier to just start new, I kind of agree with you, but in no way is it easy. I still struggle with the fact she never got how wrong what she did was (the A and even more so, all the lies and deceit), never apologized or showed any real remorse. Plus I'm a year out from being done with M, and still not ready to start seeing anyone else. I have a Dr. who wants to go out with me, it's soooo tempting, but I know I'm still not ready to build a healthy R. So I'm not sure what easier looks like to you, but I wish it was easier than it is.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
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Hey NY,

I think the problem is there has never been any *real* consequences when your wife violates boundaries. There is a brief argument then things go back to normal and your wife starts the cycle again sometime later. Agree with cadence... get it in writing so there is no doubt. But you have to be prepared to walk away if the violations continue otherwise the whole thing is pointless.

Tough spot since she works with OW. I would never be able to go back to WW if OM was a co-worker unless one of them left the company.

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