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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2727125&page=11

Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
was meant to be writing and giving her the apology letter


Why?


The objective is to take ownership of my behaviours and traits that were responsible for making her feel the way she felt. Showing empathy that I get how I made her feel, and I know that things have to change. That's it. Just I'm sorry for xxx which made you feel yyy, but using the words she has used to me rather than rewriting it in my words.

However, I was told to give this letter when things are on an upswing - I've blown that for a day or 2.

Plus, I know I shouldn't, but I still want to five the EAP a hard time... mad


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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I tried something very, very similar. Didn't work for me. Who knows - she may accept it or look at it as some sort of crazy pursuit.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Knowing mine, she'll see it as a way of validating that I'm the problem. But honesty is honesty.

So many people her had a M that was fine and then the spouse became an alien. We've always had the crazies. In fact I can pinpoint our first fight where I didn't put my foot down, basically apologised to her for her drunken, over the top ranting, and set the scene for the next 6 years.

I really do have some issues to resolve... personal boundaries 101.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
Oh, and due to my online nosing of Tacoma World (Jeep74 keeps mentioning it),


Join us, my friend. We have quite the collection of misfits.


I'll take a gander... although I have little enough time for one forum before I add another to the mix. smile


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
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Quote:
I'll take a gander... although I have little enough time for one forum before I add another to the mix


Come over - I'll add you to the multi-chat going. I've never laughed so hard in my life...


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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
I'll take a gander... although I have little enough time for one forum before I add another to the mix


Come over - I'll add you to the multi-chat going. I've never laughed so hard in my life...


Oversteer70 is my username


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
Previous Thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2727125&page=11

Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
was meant to be writing and giving her the apology letter


Why?


The objective is to take ownership of my behaviours and traits that were responsible for making her feel the way she felt. Showing empathy that I get how I made her feel, and I know that things have to change. That's it. Just I'm sorry for xxx which made you feel yyy, but using the words she has used to me rather than rewriting it in my words.

However, I was told to give this letter when things are on an upswing - I've blown that for a day or 2.

Plus, I know I shouldn't, but I still want to five the EAP a hard time... mad


I have a really big philosophical and practical problem with some of this thinking woke up.

Firstly, you and I don't have the power to make anyone else feel anything. Gracious I can scarcely manage my own state most of the time. It's control and magical thinking, others do and feel as they do.

So, you can let yourself off the hook for this. It's a big deal when you let go of the need to be right and have the power over others. Truly it's releasing.

Let W feel whatever she wants to. It's her right and her choice not yours.

Sit by V and know this frees you to concentrate on you. It's a big job all on its own.

Just saying

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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
I'll take a gander... although I have little enough time for one forum before I add another to the mix


Come over - I'll add you to the multi-chat going. I've never laughed so hard in my life...


Oversteer70 is my username


Added.


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Originally Posted By: Jeep74


Added.


TW hates me frown


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You're in. Welcome to the ragtag band of misfits. No DB talk allowed. haha


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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
You're in. Welcome to the ragtag band of misfits. No DB talk allowed. haha


Yes, Drill Sergeant!


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Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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Originally Posted By: Vanilla

I have a really big philosophical and practical problem with some of this thinking woke up.


So, in your view, is the apology letter a bad thing? Or do you mean that it is OK for me to acknowledge and own the things that I have done wrong in the past, but have no expectations about it and not to assume that I made her feel the way she felt?

Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Sit by V and know this frees you to concentrate on you. It's a big job all on its own.


It certainly is. I've been blowing in the wind the last week or so, still haven't got my IC set up. Timing is everything with my work schedule.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
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Originally Posted By: Vanilla
I have a really big philosophical and practical problem with some of this thinking woke up.


--------------------

So, in your view, is the apology letter a bad thing?

--------------------

Timing is everything on this. Your W may not want an apology in writing. You do this by you taking control of you. In some circumstances an apology can be seen as more control. If I apologise, then W will be obligated to do x or y. It's more attempts at control.



Or do you mean that it is OK for me to acknowledge and own the things that I have done wrong in the past,

As long as you have done so and are taking action to change. The most important person you do this for is yourself for your future.

but have no expectations about it and not to assume that I made her feel the way she felt?

Can I repeat you don't have the power to make W feel anything. This is a fundamental belief, not an assumption.

This belief of control requires addressing otherwise woke up any changes you make are only changes.

Changes change back. W knows this.

Letting go of control of W requires permanent shift and it's a big shift. Once you know then you will never unknow. W owns her own feelings, they are hers as of right.


Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Sit by V and know this frees you to concentrate on you. It's a big job all on its own.


It certainly is. I've been blowing in the wind the last week or so, still haven't got my IC set up. Timing is everything with my work schedule.

Enough said

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I'll ponder on this and be back. I have some journalling to do, but I've left it a bit late for now.

There's been some positives from a DB coaching viewpoint, not sure there's any from a making any progress with this sitch.


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Me: 47 WW: 35
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OK, so what's happened over the last week or so? Obviously I had my moment the weekend before. Then we got a bit closer during last week. ML on Wednesday. W locked herself out of the house on Friday so had to get a locksmith out smile

Saturday was OK, I did things with D and around the garden, W did her thing. Sunday, was a good day from making an emotional connection view -

Started off with me jumping into bed with her early for a cuddle. When she asked what she should talk about, I said how about ditching the EAP.. talked a bit. I came back in the bedroom later and she had her phone out and looked pained and then said she wasn't sure she could do it.

Anyway, had a nice day doing things together, and was all OK until night time - we were lying on her bed, and she asked me to talk to her about Christianity - but I knew this was just because she wanted to argue with OM about it, as he is a fundamentalist. I know this from previous discussions with W and from previous snooping, and also from snooping over the weekend. So I said I didn't just want to give her fuel for her conversations with the EAP. She said it wasn't just that, but that put a dampner on what had been a positive day.

Monday - complete about turn. Come home, she is talking about getting a job, ten turns out she is thinking about renting a place near D5's school, complete about face.

I look at her phone and find out she has been talking to OM about me, so I pick her up on it. I didn't rage or get angry, but I did ask what she had been saying about me. I saw that she had been telling him some stuff, about how I had been looking at he phone - now bear in mind I told her what I knew was from when I had looked at he phone a long time ago. The tone and the context looked as if she had been bad mouthing me again.

I asked her why the sudden change from Sunday. She didn't really know. I asked her what she was scared of. She said hurting people. Hurting everyone. I looked at her, can't remember if I said that people are already getting hurt, I think I did.

I guess this is the whole pursuit and distance thing. Get close, pull away.

Tuesday was much the same. Not much conversation, she just did her own thing once I was back. I did try to ask how she was, or if she wanted space, but she said she just wanted to sleep.

Today we exchanged a few text messages, then she tells me she has a job interview on Friday. I act positive, say that's good news, maybe help her from feeling lonely having something going on outside of the house.

She then tells me I must be joking, that it will be hell - so I ask her why do it? W says it is for money. I asked her if it was to be able to leave, but she said it was just to shut everybody up.

After a bit of backwards and forwards messages(I asked her why she would get a job that was hell, to wait and find something she enjoys - but she said it had to be something that worked around the kids, and care (nursing) home work would allow that) - I asked her what she wanted. She said to be left alone.

Anyway, I asked what had happened, and she said nothing, just fed up and she just didn't know her a$$ from her elbow any more.

So - back to distancing I think.

I still haven't done the apology letter, things were too up and down. I still haven't scheduled my next coaching session. I want to get myself back on an even keel.

Still too focused on her (and OM - I actually messaged him again on Monday night, but haven't said anything to W about it and W hasn't said anything to me).

Anyway, just venting. W has the copy of 5LL to read, and says she will read it (once she finishes her book on psychopaths)...

I've been reading Gottman, as recommended by the DB coach. Some interesting stuff in there and good strategies, but much of it relies on 2 parties willing to work together. I hate to think about the scores - in all sections, we'd be in the 'need to work on this area'.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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Quote:
I still haven't done the apology letter,


Why write her one, especially when the OM is in the picture? It seems like that would be counterproductive and give them a good laugh??


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On the apology letter, I find this helpful internally. Write it up like you plan on giving it to her, but do not. It's a healthy exercise to identify what you think you have done wrong in the past in your R. Work on those things without her knowledge. Better yourself.


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Originally Posted By: Tryin2figuritout
On the apology letter, I find this helpful internally. Write it up like you plan on giving it to her, but do not. It's a healthy exercise to identify what you think you have done wrong in the past in your R. Work on those things without her knowledge. Better yourself.


I'm well aware of that.


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An apology letter may change over time as you shift.

It is worth writing out and doing variations as you go.

I wrote a letter to the Giggalo.

See if I can find it for you and the link.

I rewrite it from time to time

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The final version to the Giggalo

From begging and concern

To this

final letter to the Giggalo

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Quote:
Now that our D is finished I want money. Pay me what you owe me or I am taking you to the Old Bailey. That is going to cost a lot of money and you will pay all my legal fees. I want a lot of money from you, in fact I want all the money I paid into our joint account for bills back as I should not have to pay for very much. What's mine is my own. And you promise me all my money back so that's a contract I am going to enforce.

Sell your home or mortgage it and pay me in the next 14 days before I go to court.


Did he really say this? Good grief is all I can say.

I get what you are saying about the letter. I've written it a thousand times in my head - just never put it down on paper. Maybe I need to. Thank you!


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I have a draft copy in the back of a notebook, I was going to write it out properly and see how it looked.

I get what you're saying about doing several versions, and being good for the self.

Had a few shirty text exchanges with W today - looks like she deleted all my messages off my phone when I was letting her watch something on Youtube last night. I guess I can add hypocrisy to her list of foibles


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What was the purpose of deleting the messages? Did you ask?


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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
Now that our D is finished I want money. Pay me what you owe me or I am taking you to the Old Bailey. That is going to cost a lot of money and you will pay all my legal fees. I want a lot of money from you, in fact I want all the money I paid into our joint account for bills back as I should not have to pay for very much. What's mine is my own. And you promise me all my money back so that's a contract I am going to enforce.

Sell your home or mortgage it and pay me in the next 14 days before I go to court.


Did he really say this? Good grief is all I can say.

I get what you are saying about the letter. I've written it a thousand times in my head - just never put it down on paper. Maybe I need to. Thank you!


Yes that's what he wrote, not quite word for word but as good as

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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
What was the purpose of deleting the messages? Did you ask?

I asked if she had done it, in a text msg. She said no. I don't believe her.

I have them all on my Mac.

As for reasons, I can only speculate, seeing as she won't admit it, but my educated guess is because I told OM in an email I had plenty of evidence that W was lying and we were still together... She was deleting the evidence that I might send to him... The ILYs and the pic of the pregnancy tester in particular I think.


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Me: 47 WW: 35
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Oh, gotcha. The lengths they go...


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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
Originally Posted By: Jeep74
What was the purpose of deleting the messages? Did you ask?

I asked if she had done it, in a text msg. She said no. I don't believe her.

I have them all on my Mac.

As for reasons, I can only speculate, seeing as she won't admit it, but my educated guess is because I told OM in an email I had plenty of evidence that W was lying and we were still together... She was deleting the evidence that I might send to him... The ILYs and the pic of the pregnancy tester in particular I think.


The pregnancy tester--that's a good one! I think you should send Jeep on a fact finding mission to FL. That could be entertaining.


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Quote:
As for reasons, I can only speculate, seeing as she won't admit it, but my educated guess is because I told OM in an email I had plenty of evidence that W was lying and we were still together... She was deleting the evidence that I might send to him... The ILYs and the pic of the pregnancy tester in particular I think.


I missed the episode of the pregnancy tester. May I just remind all H's who have a W that's been in an A (and/or still in an A), you are taking a risk by having sex with her. There have been cases right here on the board, where the W would suspect the possibility of pregnancy by OM, and she would have sex with her H........as coverage, should she need it.

I think you are gambling with your own health risk, having sex with your W........especially when you know OM is still in the picture (and why would you?). Until she has gone through the entire no contact; withdrawal & transparency; shows you results from her STD test........., and has at least one period after completely no contact with OM..................beware! Protect yourself, and don't be duped again.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Honey

Go get tested immediately.

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Quote:
I think you should send Jeep on a fact finding mission to FL. That could be entertaining


Wait, what?


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Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Honey

Go get tested immediately.

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One of the scariest things, my friend...


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
I missed the episode of the pregnancy tester. May I just remind all H's who have a W that's been in an A (and/or still in an A), you are taking a risk by having sex with her. There have been cases right here on the board, where the W would suspect the possibility of pregnancy by OM, and she would have sex with her H........as coverage, should she need it.

I think you are gambling with your own health risk, having sex with your W........especially when you know OM is still in the picture (and why would you?).


However, in this case, it is still a long distance EA. She has not met OM in person, as he lives in Florida and she is in the UK. She has not been out of the country. He could have been, but nothing I have seen in their messages to date would suggest that he has visited the UK.

She has created this fantasy world, and is now addicted to it. In it, I have to be not with her. I am a demented ex. She is single. Therefore she is free to love this OM via her EA.

However, her describing me as a dickhead to the OM on the same day she had sex with me (Saturday 25th) was a bit much, so I went on a rant to OM again, sent him the pic of the preg tester. AND she still managed to lie her way out of it, said I had planted it and taken the photo and was faking the iphone messages from her.

That was the day before Mother's day in the UK. I still managed to make sure the kids gave her a good day on the Sunday. She did have a minor spew at me in the morning, but I just shrugged it off and got on with making sure that the Mother's Day stuff happened. She enjoyed it, and it was a nice day with the kids.

So, had another DB session. Taking stock, as I'd gone backwards again. Not snooping at all now. I'm only 8 days clean, but hell, I'm 8 days totally clean with plenty of opportunity to have snooped if I wished. Need to do a rewrite of the apology letter, to review with the coach, and start journaling a bit more. List all positive interactions. Start a chart of arguments, old way, new way, outcome. That's going to my difficult one. Having the patience and wherewithal to stay calm, not react and do things differently.

I'm dubious about the positive interactions, as they've always been there to some extent. I think if I hadn't discovered the EA, W would quite happily live this double life indefinitely.

Reading my way through Gottmann. Struggling with GAL still. Funnily enough, that's the 1 area W attacks. Says I'll have to give up training, as she has to do everything. My 1 evening a week. Nah, she can bugger off.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Honey

Go get tested immediately.

V


One of the scariest things, my friend...


See above. Don't need to in this instance, but have been tested in the past. It's not pleasant.


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You got this, my friend


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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
You got this, my friend


Thanks Jeep. I'm getting there. I'm caring less about what she's doing day to day, and not believing anything she says. Like last Wednesday, when she said she was going to get rid of her phone again... soon! (I should start keeping tally of how many times she has said that).

It's weird, most of the time, when she does talk, she talks about long term future plans. I just nod and agree - I mean how the hell does she think I'm going to commit to anything long term while she's carrying this on?

Oh, and quite often she accuses me of being a psychopath smile Madness continues.


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Me: 47 WW: 35
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T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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Oh, yesterday she actually said that she knows I'm not a psychopath! baby steps, eh?

I'm quite tempted to break out the chainsaw just to prove her wrong.


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T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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I wanted to say projection on the psychopath issue, although that's distinctly odd.

I think of Jack Nicholson in the shining. The eyes have it.

It's such an odd thing to say and then deny. This is unfortunate labelling and I think if repeated in any court case would seem distinctly strange without evidence.

Something on the lines of the scrambled eggs for brains seems appropriate.

This has me baffled.

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How about an update?


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Hi. Yeah, it's about time for an update...

I may ramble/jump about in time here, as I remember things: Since my last DB coaching session at the end of March (that time has gone quick), I've focused on not snooping, and done well. I have not checked her Skype.

Every day I travel home from work, I start to feel nervous and unsettled about the whole thing. But I have aimed to act 'as if' every time I walk through the door. I still tend to spin a bit depending on W's moods, but it is getting better.

I was asked to keep a journal of positive interactions, and I have been doing so. Some days are better than others. There's been plenty of cordial texts, the occasional hug, smile kiss, and we ML once about a week ago. She cooled off drastically the following day.

I was also asked to keep a log of arguments/difficult situations and list old response/new response/outcome. I haven't done very well at this - I managed to identify after the arguments, not general during - other than this weekend, when she was telling me something (in a pretty patronising way) but I just shut up listened and agreed that it was good advice, and I would try that next time. I wouldn't say it made her happy, but it did close it down and de-escalate.

There's also been 3 or 4 biggish arguments. On one of the flare ups (Easter Sunday)she started getting insulting, so I said I wouldn't have a pointless argument or be insulted and that we could continue later when things were calmer. However she followed me to another room and continued to spew in front of D5. We ended up back in the kitchen, and while we did manage to speak more calmly the sitch had escalated to where she was talking about leaving, feeling trapped because she couldn't leave. She asked what I was teaching my daughter by running away and that after all these years I should know by know that running away only makes things worse. I said I was teaching her that you don't have to stand round and be insulted. I also pointed out that I said I would return to talk calmly, not just leave in a temper like I used to - mind you, I did storm off into the garden at one point just to take some deep breaths to calm down, before I went back in.

The argument had started because I was going to work outside, and D wanted to play, so I asked her to go see mummy. W was lying on her bed, having come back in from working outside earlier. But she wanted to go back out and do some more so didn't appreciate me 'palming off' D onto her - that I should have just told D to come outside or play on her own. In context, I had taken D to an easter egg unt that morning as W didn't want to go out due to a hair colouring disaster smile I had then taken D to an outdoor play ground so she could swing, climb etc and generally have fun outdoors. I wanted to get on with the yard work, as I knew I would get criticised for not getting it completed in a timely fashion otherwise..

The thing I noted was that W actually said that my actions (leaving the room) had escalated things so they were worse than before, from an argument about D to an argument about her leaving, almost like it was deliberate - "you didn't play by my rules so I upped the stakes". Maybe I'm over analysing. She also kept saying that she was happy how she was and would never change, would say what she liked, how she liked. People can't change, and me wanting her to change meant I didn't like her. I'm paraphrasing here. I didn't actually ask her to change, it was more about how she dealt with me and me with her. So that was that.

On the Thursday before Good Friday, my trains were all delayed due to a line closure (suicide on the track) and W started complaining to me about it, like it was my fault and she wished she could sit on a train. Then she sent me a link to a house asking me to help her buy it, she would leave and I could have the current house. So we had a bit of a text argument, I said she shouldn't contact me when she was in one of those moods, she said what mood, she was ill and could barely cope.

Anyway, I said I knew she was ill but refused help (professional help), and she wouldn't take the first steps, and wouldn't even end the EA which wasn't helping her mental state. This is where she told me she didn't speak to OM any more. That was news to me, and I have taken it with a pinch of salt. However, things seem to point to this actually being true. I haven't looked at her Skype, as I said, but I have noted the usage on the DNS server has dropped way down, and it hasn't been open on her phone as much. That was as much snooping as I could bring myself to do, I have been pleased with not going into her Skype and making things worse. She also said in the car on Saturday that she thought she would start feeling better once she forgot about 'the American. as we call OM.

GAL activities - not doing well. My online training course has really suffered, not touched it for a couple of months, I'm still training Krav Maga, but only once a week. (and quite often W goes for this when we argue, saying I will have to give up my 'leisure activities' to get things done, or when we separate). One thing I am really pleased about is I had a horse riding beginners assessment on Saturday, so now I should be able to join D when she goes horse riding now and again - I may try to book something for my birthday on May 1st, as it's a public holiday in the UK.

So all in all, it has been a mixed few weeks. I'm not feeling much personal progress, so I need to take stock and re-focus. If OM is out of the picture, that's a big change, however her actions lead me to believe it is his doing, not hers. She has still talked about the R being over and us not together - this is the first time she has done it when it has not been an argument about the EA/OM and in retaliation for me contacting him and telling him the truth. That hurts, I have to say. The MBR/Bed etc still features as a central point to many arguments or spiteful words. I have offered her the bed on many occasions but so far she hasn't taken me up on it. Not sure if it is because she would need to dismantle her current bed, or that it would remove one of her gripes (when being in control is the real aim), or the fact that I said I would just buy another bed (not going to take any of the smaller beds she bought in her tantrums).

So, maybe, I have moved from having a straightforward WW to WW/WAW? I am not sure, but it's time for me to re-visit the Divorce Remedy book - I started reading it again yesterday. I keep forgetting the 'believe nothing of what they say' and reacting. Someone needs to explain the STFU smoothie to me, I think.

W is still verbally abusive quite often. However, in retrospect, we managed nearly a week without a major argument (from the night of the DB coaching session on 27th March to the following Saturday. There seems to be more anger and resentment since then, could be due to loss of OM, but that's mind reading, and we have established I am no good at that.

One thing I have noted, and am working on - W hates it when I get distracted when she is talking to me (usually by an incessant D5) - so I am working on teaching D to be quiet and wait while we are talking and making sure W knows she is coming first in my attention.

So, that brings us up to date. I have another coaching session scheduled for next week - left it a bit longer to try and make some progress. It doesn't feel like the R is making progress, to many talks about separating and selling up, not selling up, finances etc. Maybe she is going to pull the trigger. Maybe she wants me to. It's frustrating, but I haven't given up yet. It's so tempting sometimes. I feel the anxiety so much of the time, especially when I head home. It's often just a horrible, uncomfortable atmosphere.

Still, I persevere.

Woke.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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Light bulb comes on the following morning.... I'm forgetting the basics.

Last night's argument had some perfect opportunities for validation, but I just reacted and threatened to start treating her how she was treating me, see how she liked it.

How easily this marionette dances to his puppet masters tune.

Re-focus. I need to work on validation that doesn't involve me being a doormat.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
Originally Posted By: LITB

Dealing with my W back then was like dealing with a petulant child. When she didn't get her way, it would get ugly. I had to learn how to effectively respond to her without adding fuel to the fire.


LITB

In these situations, what did you find worked for you?

Hey Woke,

I brought your question to me over from Wsh's thread.

I found that boundaries and not arguing worked. She brought this up the other day while we were talking to a friend. She said that she wondered to herself when we were separated why I stopped arguing with her. When I did argue previously, it would just justify her choices and fuel her crazy train.

My boundary was that I wouldn't converse with her if/when she was emotionally charged. Or respond from a calm place. It took practice. It took me journaling interactions to learn from, because I found when I wrote things down, I would remember more clearly.


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Quote:
She also kept saying that she was happy how she was and would never change, would say what she liked, how she liked. People can't change, and me wanting her to change meant I didn't like her. I'm paraphrasing here. I didn't actually ask her to change, it was more about how she dealt with me and me with her. So that was that.


Do you see the wayward thinking in this woman?! She is saying she does not respect you, and she doesn't value your feelings.

Quote:
Last night's argument had some perfect opportunities for validation, but I just reacted and threatened to start treating her how she was treating me, see how she liked it.


I don't want to sound as if I am putting down validation. I want you to understand that everyone needs validation. However, when you are being insulted by your WW (especially in front of D5), and your WW is telling you things like the first quote above......you need to enforce a firm boundary. She does not respect you for walking away when she is hammering you and insulting you. She is actually challenging you to stand up to her. Why do you think she treats you so terribly? B/c you have allowed it, that's why. This is how she pushes your buttons to see how far she can go and how much cr@p she can throw at you before you do something about it.

Just telling her that you won't be disrespected, will not stop her insults. She needs to see action from you.

Men with the NGS always seem to choose walking away whenever they are being bullied by the female adults closest to them. It does not solve the problem b/c the bully is always waiting to have a go at you the next chance they get.

Perhaps you have been told to walk away to prevent the argument from escalating. In some cases, that is advisable. I'm just telling you that your WW will not change from this horrible, b'tch-crazed woman, unless she learns to show you respect. Boundaries are not enforced through arguments.

Having a "time-out" may work to cool down a heated argument, but it does nothing to stop bullying. Do not try to state a boundary while in an argument. Do not argue with her about a boundary. Just show action when it is not honored.

Anyway, do what you must to protect your feelings, and to be an example to your children in how to deal with these types of situations in a relationship. I know you are trying to keep your family together. The children need to see strong leadership from their dad, and you can do it.


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Originally Posted By: LITB
Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
Originally Posted By: LITB

Dealing with my W back then was like dealing with a petulant child. When she didn't get her way, it would get ugly. I had to learn how to effectively respond to her without adding fuel to the fire.


LITB

In these situations, what did you find worked for you?

Hey Woke,

I brought your question to me over from Wsh's thread.


Thanks, appreciated.

Quote:
I found that boundaries and not arguing worked. She brought this up the other day while we were talking to a friend. She said that she wondered to herself when we were separated why I stopped arguing with her. When I did argue previously, it would just justify her choices and fuel her crazy train.


OK, I get that. Something I find difficult, due to the nature of the arguments where I am usually subjected to personal attacks.

Quote:
My boundary was that I wouldn't converse with her if/when she was emotionally charged. Or respond from a calm place. It took practice. It took me journaling interactions to learn from, because I found when I wrote things down, I would remember more clearly.


So, if she was emotionally charged, or ranting, did you sit there and listen, but say nothing? How did you respond calmly - to the points she was making, or by telling her you wouldn't converse when she was like that?


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
She also kept saying that she was happy how she was and would never change, would say what she liked, how she liked. People can't change, and me wanting her to change meant I didn't like her. I'm paraphrasing here. I didn't actually ask her to change, it was more about how she dealt with me and me with her. So that was that.


Do you see the wayward thinking in this woman?! She is saying she does not respect you, and she doesn't value your feelings.


Oh, I do indeed. She does not, and I don't believe she ever has, at least not in the way that partners should respect each other.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
Last night's argument had some perfect opportunities for validation, but I just reacted and threatened to start treating her how she was treating me, see how she liked it.


I don't want to sound as if I am putting down validation. I want you to understand that everyone needs validation. However, when you are being insulted by your WW (especially in front of D5), and your WW is telling you things like the first quote above......you need to enforce a firm boundary. She does not respect you for walking away when she is hammering you and insulting you. She is actually challenging you to stand up to her. Why do you think she treats you so terribly? B/c you have allowed it, that's why. This is how she pushes your buttons to see how far she can go and how much cr@p she can throw at you before you do something about it.

Just telling her that you won't be disrespected, will not stop her insults. She needs to see action from you.


I know, and I feel like it's Groundhog Day, back where I came in. I really don't know what action if it's not telling her that I will converse calmly later and not be insulted, and then leaving.

Quote:
Men with the NGS always seem to choose walking away whenever they are being bullied by the female adults closest to them. It does not solve the problem b/c the bully is always waiting to have a go at you the next chance they get.

Perhaps you have been told to walk away to prevent the argument from escalating. In some cases, that is advisable. I'm just telling you that your WW will not change from this horrible, b'tch-crazed woman, unless she learns to show you respect. Boundaries are not enforced through arguments.

Having a "time-out" may work to cool down a heated argument, but it does nothing to stop bullying.


A time out wouldn't work in my case, as W would never respect it.

Quote:
Do not try to state a boundary while in an argument. Do not argue with her about a boundary. Just show action when it is not honored.


Such as? I know I'm being pedantic, but if it's not telling her I won't take part in an insulting argument and will talk calmly later, then leaving, what is it? Or is it the stating of the boundary? I should state that when things are calm, then enforce later?


Quote:
Anyway, do what you must to protect your feelings, and to be an example to your children in how to deal with these types of situations in a relationship. I know you are trying to keep your family together. The children need to see strong leadership from their dad, and you can do it.


Well, I'm not doing a good job of it.

Yesterday W messaged me that she hadn't slept. So I thought I'd do something different, not go training (my once a week GAL), go home and help out, get D to bed etc.

Got home, but found she already had D in bed, and when I said she could have an early night she just turned it around saying she didn't need my permission. Then later she ranted and raved about stuff, basically saying I had been deliberate and vindictive by messaging OM, by making her block him on email (last September) and I had no right to interfere in her life... I had put nails in coffins. She also asked if I had done anything to her email, as she couldn't send messages. Nothing to do with me, but she just needed to re-enter her password.

Anyway, that got me thinking today - a) how she was completely out of order, blaming me for my actions and taking no responsibility for her...

b) the email. So I broke my rule and snooped. She got back in touch with OM last night.

So... I messaged her and told her I want the house on the market next month. I didn't say I'd snooped, just said I'd looked back at the hell she'd put me through for months and then had the gall to blame me for. I'm such a react-o-holic. But I am sick of this. We're living an in house separation, she is saying we are not together any more, I get regular verbal abuse, and I don't see any way out.

I also message OM, and swore at him and told him I wasn't finished with him yet. Childish I know.

Anyway, we exchanged a few messages, and while she has guessed I have snooped I haven't told her I have. (she asked if she was being micro monitored).

How long do I put up with this toxic situation that living in the same house seems to bring? I get no time to myself, no time to centre and refocus, or do anything except work around the place at weekends and then do my father duties on weeknights.

I know, basic mistakes I've made and I should know better after 4 or 5 months of DB. Today I just feel like I can't go on like this.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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Definitely not a mistake, brotherman.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
So, if she was emotionally charged, or ranting, did you sit there and listen, but say nothing? How did you respond calmly - to the points she was making, or by telling her you wouldn't converse when she was like that?

Like I said, it took practice. Communicate the boundary and then follow through.

When my W was emotionally charged, I'd say something like this, "I respect myself too much to be treated this way. This conversation is over until we can talk in a civil manner." Then I'd walk away or hangup and turn my phone off.


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Detach please.

Those are my thoughts, become an observer.

V


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Originally Posted By: LITB
Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
So, if she was emotionally charged, or ranting, did you sit there and listen, but say nothing? How did you respond calmly - to the points she was making, or by telling her you wouldn't converse when she was like that?

Like I said, it took practice. Communicate the boundary and then follow through.

When my W was emotionally charged, I'd say something like this, "I respect myself too much to be treated this way. This conversation is over until we can talk in a civil manner." Then I'd walk away or hangup and turn my phone off.


Right, gotcha. That's along the lines of what I've been trying to put in place, although with limited success so far. I don't even mind if it is a heated debate, but if it's just going to be personal insults or character assassination then I'm not taking that.

I just need to persevere, as she tends to follow me about when I have tried that.

Thanks you


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SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Detach please.

Those are my thoughts, become an observer.

V

Yes, I see I need to focus on that. I always want off the crazy train. Or at least to be sitting up front with my hand on the brake.

So, the weekend was fine. We didn't discuss anything on Friday. Ought or all day Saturday, although things were a bit strained when I had to do a photo shoot with all of her family. I spent a lot of Saturday pissed off, same for Sunday in places, but more sad on Sunday. However, I still want to continue with selling the house. Unfortunately there is no affordable solution where one party retains the current house, we went too high on the mortgage for that.

I initiated a discussion about it last night, after D & S had gone to bed, about getting the house on the market and telling the kids.

Among other things, W reiterated that she did not like having things outside of her control (I.e my interference) and that she had to do things herself. Also that she would cut off her nose to spite her face. I validated about the control, and said I thought she probably already had cut her nose off now. After Thursday night, I just wanted to move on. She said Thursday was not normal and she was suffering withdrawals from her anxiety medication. I told her it was more likely withdrawals from her EA, however I suspected that she was now back in touch based on her ranting about her email not sending, and the fact that our Skype connections on the DNS monitor have gone back up. I didn't admit to any snooping. I also said as she wasn't denying it, I was right, and that the irony was that had she given it another couple of weeks, or months at the max, it would have got better, and now she would be making it 10x worse if it wasn't something she really wanted. She replied that she would just have to be a bitch, if she wanted to end it.

She did say she didn't want to split up - I pointed out that on Thursday she had said we were not together. She said 'we're not'. She repeated she didn't want to split up, but she thought it would be easier. She also said that she had spoken to her mother, and she could start staying there at weekends to try and get D used to the idea.

So, we progress.

While I am not done, I am done enough that I will not continue as we have been. An in house separation is the worst of all worlds. I will focus on the needs of my children and the needs of. Self to improve and become a better, healthier person. This is not a ploy by me to get her to change and see sense. Ok, I did react, but it was a reaction driven by what I have been thinking for a while.

On Thursday evening I had to watch
my beautiful, precious D5 covering her ears because mummy was raging at daddy again. This stops. I will give her comfort and stability, and if that is on my own, so be it.


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SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
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Quote:
An in house separation is the worst of all worlds.


How about an update?


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
An in house separation is the worst of all worlds.


How about an update?



There's little change to report. Things have been up and down. Not too many major arguments. W is full on back in her EA.

We did some garden work together on Saturday, went for a walk with D5 on Sunday, It was my birthday on Monday, we did family stuff. W had the kids up and had them bring me presents and breakfast in bed (Monday was a public holiday in the UK, so no work).

She even gave me a card saying 'To my foxy husband' and gave me some of the gifts from her, even though I'd said just to get me things form the kids. She signed her card with 'lots of love'

But it is all meaningless. Why would she even do this? Have I pursued recently? Maybe, just a tint bit. Have I offered tough love? No. Am I enabling? I guess so.

Have I snooped - yes. Since I decided I wanted to sell the house and get things moving, I wanted to know what I'm up against. I know I shouldn't, but I'm me. It's just the usual, professing love to the OM, but then telling him he should come across to visit, come to the county where we live... This is making me mad.

I do not want that guy near my home or my kids. If he does, there will be blood spilled.

I am planning on taking legal advice to see if I can keep him away.

I will also push ahead getting the real estate agents in to value the house, as I don't think W will do anything to move it forward - she says she thinks it is the wrong move, and it is the childrens' home. But she can offer no realistic alternatives.

For my GAL I manage to train Krav Maga 1 night a week. My online training expired before I finished the course so I need to pay to extend that. And now W has asked me to get home on time so she can go running in the evening, and always likes to take a shot at my 'leisure activities' when we argue about time available... yes, my 3 hrs per week.

That's pretty much it.

I have one more DB coaching session to go, but I don't think I am going to make any radical breakthroughs. I haven't given the apology letter yet, and I am in 2 minds about it. It seems like I am almost taking responsibility for the whole sitch, and that W will see it as me admitting guilt, rather than just me taking ownership of my faults.

It's a hideous limbo.

Trying to think what my 180's should be.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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So, after a pretty good weekend, most things going OK, positive interactions, and even ML on Saturday morning, today, just before bed, we had a rage fest.

W said house prices were dropping, so I said we should sell the place fast. Then ensued a massive argument about taking the kids' home away, she wanted all the money, I had a good job she had nothing.

Threatened to stay in the house, threatened to get me out. Threatened to go to America with the kids. Threatened to marry OM and get pregnant so the courts would come down in her favour, when I said she couldn't legally take my daughter out of the country without my permission.

Threatened that I won't get joint custody.

Said I was selfish and using my kids, when I said I needed to be able to make sure I could provide a stable home for them, and I would need some money for a deposit.

She doesn't want a mediocre life, apparently. I said she was just being entitled, and that unfortunately when people split up, that everyone ends up worse off.

On my side, I told her that OM is not to come near my kids, and if he comes to England, blood will be spilled. Bearing in mind this guy has previously threatened to beat me up and actually kill me...

Told her I would seek a clause of not introducing new partners into the custody arrangements. Probably should have kept my powder dry on that one.

So she wants me out of the house (says she will find a way to afford it), or wants all of the money from the house, doesn't want me to have joint custody, wants to take my kids away if I don't play ball.

At the moment, I don't even want this woman near me.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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Woke...your posts always break my heart. Your situation is so excruciating. If she is threatening to take the kids, you've gotta lawyer up. What if one day you come home from work and everyone is gone?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Gordie

I'll grab D5's passport tonight and put it somewhere safe until I arrange a safe deposit box.

I'm also going to speak to a friend - his partner used to a family law barrister, so I can get some advice and maybe pointed towards a good lawyer.

This [censored], big time.

Yeah, she sent a message to apologise this morning, but how I can't trust that any more than I can trust anything she says.

I understand the meaning of anxiety now.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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So sad to read. I bet you never thought she could be capable of this level of selfishness and hatefulness.

Be very, very careful what you say to her. Arguments will cause you to say things that come back to bite you hard. She will use everything she can to get what she wants.

Please do not make threats about the OM. She will do things out of spite....just to show you she can. I don't know the laws there, but where I live, it's not that easy to place restrictions on who your ex introduces to the kids. I think you can restrict "sleep overs". Anyway, find a lawyer who will work for a father's rights.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Well, not much has changed since my last update. W apologised the next day by text and said she didn't mean it.

I have taken D's passport and put it somewhere safe.

Things have been mostly OK with minor arguments. Last week, W was going on about how she wanted 100% from the sale of the house, I didn't need anything as I had a good job. The kids liked the house. Then she said she could have the house, she would find a way to pay for it. I said she would have to figure out how to do it and to talk to the mortgage company to see if it was even possible, as she would need to get me off the mortgage, as she wouldn't be having me liable if she couldn't pay. She looked a bit perplexed, don't even think she'd thought that through. She's not good with money, so I don't trust her. She also told me I'd done everything wrong in this situation. I said I'd tried everything from ignoring it to trying my damnedest to end the EA and nothing had worked and I didn't think anything would have worked. She couldn't really answer that one. Later I told her not to do anything that would risk our children's future. If she married someone else, they could have claims on her stuff. She said it was never going to happen, and then waggled her little finger, indicating penis size... OM is not blessed in that dept, not that it matters to this whole mental situation.

I've been having some screwy dreams lately, I don't usually even remember dreams. Last one ended with me slashing OM's throat with his own knife. Disturbing.

W has moments of closeness, random hugs, cuddles kisses, and on a couple of occasions, when D5 has been cuddling us, she has said 'cuddles with 2 people I love'. Other times she has been cold and distant.

I'm meeting my friend for lunch on Friday, and will hopefully get some advice, maybe some recommendations for an L, as I have t sorted that out yet. I don't want to use the local one I talked to, as it is hard for me to get there while working away in London. I want a specialist anyway, someone who is used to dealing with crazy situations, and can help ensure that my children are kept safe and at least ensure joint custody.

I also found out that MiL obviously knows more about this than W letvon - MiL was giving S16 her iPhone as a present, and I saw a message from W to MiL saying she needed the pictures back from her phone before she gave it to him. MiL sent her pictures of OM, including the (tiny) penis pic! Talk about collaborating. I guess W did it for safe keeping in case I deleted anything from her phone again. (Like she deleted all of her messages to me from my phone).

It doesn't look like MiL has even tried to talk sense into W. Blood is thicker than water, as always.

I'm not detached yet. I'm having better days, but sleep is still not great. I get home late, bath and read with D5 (her reading is coming along so much, fills my heart to hear her), eat, and then it's time for bed. Then my mind wakes up, and the demons have their little play with me. I still keep wanting to contact OM, keep trying to end the EA, make him understand it's all a bunch of lies, even though O know, I bloody well KNOW it won't work. I've resisted so far.

We've had the house valued by 3 real estate agents, all pretty similar valuations. In the meantime, W is often talking about long term things for the house. Today she messaged me to say her beauty therapist was interested in paying us to keep her horse on our land, which would involve us buying a stable and getting some paddock fencing!

Day by day. Hour by hour. I went in the garage last night and hit the heavy bag for a bit. That helped. Need a rethink on my GAL to fit things in with the limited time available. Detach. Distance. Observe. That will be my mantra.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
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Journaling:

Last Friday I had lunch with an old friend. He was pretty adamant I just need to get out, and pretty much stop being such a pushover. He is also my mortgage advisor, so could help me with any future needs. He did point out that my W's occasional comments of her having the house are just a pipe dream as the mortgage company would not put the mortgage in her sole name, as she has no way of paying it. And while my name is on it, I am liable, if she did stop paying it.

We then bumped into his partner outside the office. His partner pulled even fewer punches. He used to be a family law barrister before he had a change of career.

We discussed the likelihood that my issues keep putting me in these situations - codependency, fixer, neediness, lack of boundaries. That I should not have tolerated any of the lack of respect, even to the point of throwing her out, and letting her call the police! He agreed I need to get out, but to be in control of the process. Get a good lawyer before I get a good counsellor, get all of the advice and options laid out, and the push the button if that's what I decide.

Do some introspection on why I let myself be treated this way. He remembered the bad times we had had in the early days of our R, and he had said then that her personality was formed in childhood and would be unlikely to change as an adult.

His bad news was that in the UK she would probably still get full custody and I would get contact, which could be as little as every other weekend and one night a week! I'll fight that tooth and nail, but he said with my current working arrangements and her being a SAHM, that it wasn't looking good. If we were actually married she would also probably get 100% of the house, but as we aren't, it may be slightly more favourable. To be honest, custody and contact is much more important to me than how much I get from the house.

The weekend was Ok. I was fairly busy, took D to ballet, played with her in the park, then took her with me when I did the supermarket shop while W did some other stuff. Did some work in the garden later. Sunday also OK. Had wax with W in the morning, and it was a lot more satisfactory than last time. Decided it was just sex, and nothing more, and got a bit more into it. Anyway, rest of the day was fine - shopping with D5, trip to the hardware store, bit of work around the house and garden.

Mostly civil with W although sometimes she is still snappy and rude for no reason. On Sunday she asked if I thought we should get the house on the market, so I said I guess so.

At other times she has still talked about her so called 'mind control' from OM and also that she just wants him to give up and move on, that surely he won't Persia for ever. I'm just interested in keeping him away from my kids if possible and ensuring he doesn't jeopardise their future by getting his claws into W once she has money from the house sale. Not sure I could actually prevent anything, just make sure W knows the risks of doing something stupid... she says she won't risk the kids future.

So this week has been friendly houseguest. Contact with W is sporadic. Sometimes texts during the day, sometimes not. Not much conversation at home, still quite often tense when there is. She still wants me to buy her stupidly expensive items for her birthday. Not planning on it.

Stil haven't done my last coaching session. Found it to be too formulaic. Will see how things progress. I'm searching for jobs closer to home. Trained on Tuesday, really good session. Reading every night with D5 before she goes to sleep. W pretty much abdicates once I get home. Sometimes she has cooked dinner for me to beat up, sometimes not. She is still obsessing about her appearance, her hair, dieting. I think I shall start eating on the way home, free up my time once D5 gone to bed, give more chance for some GAL or self improvement. I still want to be the man only a fool would leave, even if I end up not wanting her back. I'm getting better at identifying those areas I need to work on.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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Spell corrections:

'had wax' = had sex
'Persia' = persist
Dinner to 'beat up' = heat up

smile


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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Journaling

So, had a nice long weekend away with D, visiting my parents.

Didn't tell my parents anything.

Posted pics to W, and at one point she texted back that she loved us both.

One afternoon she phoned me just to rant. I'd actually put some tools away that apparently she had wanted left out, so she started being disrespectful. I ended up hanging up the phone on her and then ignored her from then on.

Later I posted a pic of D5 to her, and she responded with an apology for the argument.

Anyway, got home on Monday evening, and immediately it wasn't good - W started moaning about the place being made untidy after she had cleaned it all, while I was still in the process of unloading the car.

Back to work on Tuesday, D has ben sick, and has been coming to my bed in the night. Not great for sleep.

More worrying is that last night W started making a scene about it, saying it wasn't right, and that she shouldn't be in a bed with her father (this is a super king size bed and I put a pillow down the middle so she doesn't kick me). W even demanded that I show her I was wearing pyjamas. This is pretty sick and I'm worried that she will start throwing accusations about. I'm documenting everything now, and think I will need to start carrying a voice activated recorder on me again.

Other than that, she continues to argue about loss of the MBR and the bed, continues to deny her EA is an affair, and refuses to discuss selling the house.

I put her wages in her account on Wednesday, and she promptly blew them buying her own birthday presents from me and the kids, spending much more than I would have. Then saying she only needed to get some more Botox and her beauty treatment was done. Then saying she had no money left.

So no money for tax saved again this month, as I will be picking up the tab for the rest of the food shopping, plus SS16's birthday presents (he turns 17 tomorrow, so I will be buying him a cheap car and some driving lessons - W agreed to the car, I probably would have waited until he had at least passed his test).

My friend didn't come through with the name of a good lawyer, so on Monday I will just have to bite the bullet and find one, and hope that they are good. I really need to figure pout how to separate the finances and get things moving.

I am also going to have to stop sleeping with her. She was claiming she felt pregnant again on Tuesday, and by Wednesday was claiming that I had been pressuring her for sex again - she then asked why I was laughing, and I told her that it was so ludicrous because I had made sure that she had asked the last few times. She didn't like that, tried to deny it, and then made some pathetic comment about doing me a favour or something like that.

One other development - she has started a part time job, waitressing at a local pub (same one where S16 works). Doesn't pay a lot, and I will have to talk to my accountant, as I already pay her up to the tax free allowance through my company.

Last night she did say she wasn't doing it for the money (doesn't pay much) but was doing it to get her confidence back and to stop people telling her she needs to get a job. However, she also needs to rely on people to look after D5 until I get home from work. MiL is doing this week, but can't do next week.

She also started complaining about my GAL when I said I would train on a night that didn't conflict with her job, and asked me how much it cost. (£35 a month.. probably an order of magnitude less than her Amazon habit at the moment). I did tell her that her job was just as selfish as my GAL as it was something she was doing purely for herself.

It's hard to detach, harder to drop the rope when someone is spoiling for a fight so much of the time. We are both trapped by the financial situation, but she doesn't see it that way. She sees only herself as being trapped and being 'bent over a barrel' by me.

But she won't even take the steps to speak to the mortgage company or a lawyer. I think she knows that she wouldn't get the mortgage in her sole name, and despite her repeating over and over that they won't throw her out when she has children, I had to tell her that banks don't work like that, and they repossess houses all the time.

75% of the time she is not pleasant to be around, 25% of the time she is nice. Sometimes she tries to talk about her EA, saying she is being manipulated. Hoping that he will get bored and go away. Last time I told her that I didn't want to hear it.

And when we had the argument mid week, and she told me I would never get her back by treating her the way I was (MBR) I had to tell her that I wasn't trying to get her back any more. That our R was dead, and had been dead a long while, and I wasn't going to beg or crawl. That she would have to do work including counselling - which she refused flat out, saying she was smarter than any counsellor, and it was just a practice by losers to take money off people.

I'm starting to read 'No More Mr Nice Guy' to see if that helps me with NGS/Co dependency. I'm worried about the money needed for counselling now that she has been blowing it all again.

I'll report back soon, once I've spoken to a damn good L.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
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So. Had SS17's birthday on Saturday 3rd. Had a pretty good day - picked him up a cheap car and took him out for his first driving lesson.

On Saturday W let it drop that she had estate agents coming in all day to photograph the house and put it on the market. She hasn't discussed this with me. I told her she should discuss things like that with me first. I'll be honest, it annoyed me.

Spoke to some friends who suggested i just roll with it and let her be happy with it being her idea.

In the end, I didn't go to work on Monday - my office is in London Bridge and had been on lockdown following the latest terror attack. I worked from home. W said she did t want t leave her home, that she and the kids loved it, and then asked me to cancel the estate agent, which I did.

She then started talking about paying off the mortgage early, me getting a job closer to home, and spending a lot more time around the place.

Ive been having bouts of sadness and anger, worse late at night, so not getting as much sleep as I should. On Thursday I had another day at home due to the rail lines being blocked - still spent 4 hrs on the train though. I did get too go with W when D5 had her swimming lesson, which was nice. Then W had work at her part time job on Thursday and Friday.

Friday night I slipped and went into her room to see her and tell her that I didn't think it was fair or right for her to be carrying on this EA while telling me she thinks she might be pregnant ( she wasn't) or asking me to make long term plans.

I tried the appeal to her higher self as suggested by my DB coach, saying that she knew right from wrong, and that she could still do the right thing.

She didn't want to talk about it, wouldn't look me in the eye. Said she was confused. Said OM was her "only friend"... I called BS on that one, told her it wasn't true, but that she was alienating herself from people, spending too much time watching things on YouTube that depressed her and then talking about them with him.

Saturday W took D5 camping for a night. I took S17 driving then he went to stay at a friends jouse, so I had some time to myself. Worked in the garden, walked the dog through the fields in the sunshine, lit an outdoor fire and had a 1 man BBQ - also got 7 hrs sleep!

Sunday, was up by 7, walked the dog, did some more garden work, then W and D5 got home at 10am. W was hungover, so went to lie down. I slipped some more and snooped at her phone and saw the first thing she did was Skype OM when she got home. I managed to suppress my anger and focused on having a good time with D5. Played a lot with her, did some painting. Took her out to a garden centre where I bought some rose bushes and she chose a miniature apple tree.

Sunday night I slipped again - W went to bed early saying she needed an early night, and was going to listen to something and fall asleep. As I waslked past her room, her light was still on, nothing playing on her phone, and I could hear her laughing at some point - so I knew she was skyping OM - I went in again and did exactly the same as Friday. Told her that it couldn't go on like this. She asked if I wanted her to just leave with nothing - I said I wasn't asking her to leave, but if she was asking me to make long term plans then she had to put her money where her mouth is. I left it at that, kept it short, and went downstairs.

Not long later she came down again - asked me to go outsidwbith her and put the animals away. We fired a few arrows together in the wooded area where the archery targets are set up. Walked all around the garden, both agreed that it was lovely and that neither of us wanted to leave. We then sat together on the patio and shared a beer.

When she went to bed again, we hugged, held each other tightly, but didn't speak, other than to say good night.

Today there has not been much contact. Couple of texts from her, in response to mine, but hours after I'd sent them.

So... I will stop pursuing, as I think I have become a bit needy again when she is around, trying to get hugs or kisses from her. She responds, but I will let her initiate - she does on occasion.

I will ease up on the texts - DB coach had said it was OK, if I was trying to build up a connection and it wasn't R related - however, it seems she is pulling back at the minute.

I speak to the damn good (expensive?) lawyer tomorrow - telephone consultation, initially. Recommended by my friend, the former barrister. Specialists in family law and complicated situations, so the Issues with her working for my company and her threats to take D to the US can be discussed.

Still feeling out of control, 10 months nearly since BD, 6 months since finding this forum. I'm having more better days than I was though.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
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Why does every update I do seem to turn into 'War & Peace'? wink


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Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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Spoken to L today, so a lot more well informed about what could happen. Financially, W would get most of the equity from the house, as expected, but if it's unaffordable for 1 party to keep the house, then she couldn't prevent the sale, if it comes to that.

W can't take D5 abroad, and as I have parental responsibility, she would probably struggle to move to another part of the UK without my agreement or a court ruling.

She also said I should be able to stop OM meeting my daughter. At least for a period of time.

L said I should set a time limit on things, and then let W know. If it reaches that time limit, put my plans into action, get some control back.

Had a good training session tonight, working on knife defence. Really enjoyed it.

Got back to W in a foul mood, she'd been depressing herself with stuff on YouTube again, about the decline of our society and inevitable future for our children. Then started an argument with me, about the bed and MBR again, and ended up with me threatening to put her phone down the toilet if she did it again - told her she was getting angry with me because of the phone and I wasn't having it. No winners to this argument. Oh well. Can't have a completely good day, eh?


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: May 2017
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Hi Woke_Up

"On Thursday evening I had to watch my beautiful, precious D5 covering her ears because mummy was raging at daddy again".

My heart goes out to you and your sitch, we basically are caught up in what we can afford to do most of the time! Seeing your D doing the above must have hurt a great deal, was there any remorse from your W..?

I basically was having none of this in my R, she was playing out her A in front of my 2 children and me and enough was enough I moved out after she refused. To be honest it gave me back control BUT allowed her to escalate the A he basically moved in! You can imagine how I felt having this stranger play happy families with my 2S. I can't control her though but I'm sure if I stayed the sitch would have been horrendous for all especially my boys.

Sandi2 states these people are masters of manipulation and this cycle had to be broken. I see my sitch now as her on a massive high curve coming slowly down as their R gets more and more routine whilst mine is the opposite, I'm at an all time low BUT getting better and better. Soon we'll cross on the chart and then see what happens..

Again stay strong and keep at it.

Mark


DR'ing started March 2017

Don't blow the last bridge up from fantasy island, act "as if".
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Originally Posted By: parkema
Hi Woke_Up

"On Thursday evening I had to watch my beautiful, precious D5 covering her ears because mummy was raging at daddy again".

My heart goes out to you and your sitch, we basically are caught up in what we can afford to do most of the time! Seeing your D doing the above must have hurt a great deal, was there any remorse from your W..?


No, she is very rarely remorseful following her raging and spewing. In fact, I get blamed for trying to leave the room. Made the mistake of going into a different room where D5 was, and getting trapped in there. I won't do that again. When I have said not to do it in front of the kids before, she has actually responded that the kids need to know what sort of idiot there father is.... although there is a story about that occasion. She says I am teaching my daughter to run away by leaving the room, where I see it as not standing for abuse. She can be quite verbally abusive, although it seems not so frequent recently.

Quote:
I basically was having none of this in my R, she was playing out her A in front of my 2 children and me and enough was enough I moved out after she refused. To be honest it gave me back control BUT allowed her to escalate the A he basically moved in! You can imagine how I felt having this stranger play happy families with my 2S. I can't control her though but I'm sure if I stayed the sitch would have been horrendous for all especially my boys.


I'm not sure I would have coped with that. This is bad enough with it being an EA that she refuses to end. I think I would have cut her loose at a PA. Either kicked her out, or more likely, I would have had to leave, given how the UK is.

Quote:
Sandi2 states these people are masters of manipulation and this cycle had to be broken. I see my sitch now as her on a massive high curve coming slowly down as their R gets more and more routine whilst mine is the opposite, I'm at an all time low BUT getting better and better. Soon we'll cross on the chart and then see what happens..

Again stay strong and keep at it.

Mark


Thanks mate, and best of luck with your progress. I'll keep an eye on your thread. Don't know about staying strong, I had a relapse last night and told OM to... well, I can't swear on this forum, but you get the idea. Allowed impulse to get the better of me. Just going to pull back and take stock again - I've allowed myself to get too close again recently, what with her yo-yoing with regards to selling the house, then not wanting to sell and wanting us to plan for the future. Does my head in sometimes. Going to take time to re-read DR and some of my self improvement books, get back on track mentally.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 253
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Hi Woke_Up

I do think re-visiting the DR book is a good idea. Look we all love our WW's and we do drop the ball sometimes and fall back into some bad habits it's only natural.

Don't beat yourself up over it, these things happen.

One of the reasons I had to leave the family home was partly due to her wanting to justify what she is doing having an A, you have to remember this is WAR. At this moment in time my WW is running on dopamine which is giving her a massive high due to what she is getting from her AP/LO.
She needs to get her fix and so keeps being with him (obviously being a co-worker helps her also) BUT guilt doesn't hide it pops up from time to time to remind her what she is doing is wrong! How does she fight these feelings? She justifies them by getting you to show your bad side, she instigates a conversation she knows pushes your buttons and off you go. This then says to her "look this is the reason I'm with this wonderful AP/LO you're just pathetic.".

I watched my children see their mum turn into something unrecognisable a different person who hated their dad (she told me the marriage was great) the arguments she instigated had to stop, I moved out. Now I have control over these episodes in fact I don't have any anymore, I can now predict when these are likely to happen and charge neutral. This dissipates the hatred and bad feeling (but doesn't allow her to get rid of her guilt) If I fall I just back off and if it continues politely ask her to leave.

You mention your W is telling you your wrong in "teaching my daughter to run away by leaving the room" WTF! Remember the guilt thing? She wants to justify her actions by making you look bad DON'T FALL FOR IT. Act with poise and class, be the better person the adult here, my advice and I'm not sure what everybody else feels but "charge neutral" look it up and soak up all that negativity by staying calm and agreeing with what she says to some degree. This has the habit of her seeing almost nothing there to have a go at and you aren't giving her her justification by being the jerk.

How many times have I wanted to kick the $h1t out of the AP?

Ex military it's in the make-up BUT what would this accomplish? You need to stop this contact with the OP all you're succeeding in doing is pushing her closer and closer to him BE THE BETTER PERSON.

I am slowly coming to terms with my situation and am getting better and better it's a mantra of mine, my main aim now is to keep doing the LRT in the DR book and GAL (thought military lingo was bad) whilst being the best father to my wonderful boys and showing WW I'm still her best friend and a safe place for her to come to when her world starts to fall apart.

Watch this space...

Take care, be patient be good.

Mark.


DR'ing started March 2017

Don't blow the last bridge up from fantasy island, act "as if".
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Well and truly screwed things up today. Let myself be caught in a fight with W, got in her face repeatedly, so she started shoving me away, at which point I told her she should leave and attempted to manhandlw her out of the front door. Didn't work, she fought back, scratching at my face. I didn't defend against it.

This was a complete show of weakness on my part. Shut up and walk away. Why can't I do this? We need separate spaces, that's for sure. I feel disgusted with myself for reacting this way.

Anyway, W has told D5 that we need to live separately. She's right. She's talking about relocating to Wales, not sure how serious she is.

Guess the first step is to actually sell the house.

On top of that, my contract was terminated early on Monday, so finished work on Friday - so I'm job hunting again.

Self examination makes me think I was handing her into physically attacking me, once upon a time I would have played the victim, but I won't. What I did was inexcusable- so I'll own that.

Prior to today, things had been ok, just in a holding pattern. Don't know what brought today on.

I have apologised. I will just work on maintaining space from her, to avoid a future repeat.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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I have now started working away from home in the week, Mon-Fri. This is far from ideal, but I needed to pay the bills. Must keep a roof over our heads.

I will see how this develops with anything to do with W. I am trying to minimise contact with her. I FaceTime D every night. That is the worst, being away from the kids.

Things with W had been somewhat settled lately. Physicallybintimate ablut once every week or 2 (twice before I started working away). The first week I was away she was hardly on Skype, but I checked her emails. Turned out to be just ablivers tiff with OM and after his begging and pleading and pledging undying and eternal love, she is back on. She racked up about 4 hours on Friday - so I had a go at her about it when I got home, saying what a waste of time it was when she was claiming to be busy and over worked.

She keeps talking about long term plans still. Paying off the mortgage early, buying a camper van. On Saturday we sat in the garden and talked a bit. To be frank, she did most of the talking. I am less interested in making the effort while she is still in her EA. I told her on Sunday that the reason I wan talkative was this. I said that all the long term plans were meaningless and I had no intention of going along with them while she was involved in any form with another man.

She said get the house sold, so I said I was happy to do so, but last time she chickened out and had me cancel the real estate agents. She tried to deny it was her doing, but then stopped, as she remembered it was her.

We went out on Sunday for a family day out. Later, W is still talking about a camper van, and was quite touchy feely. I genuinely think her mental state is questionable - or she is the queen of duplicity.

Next month is 1 yr since BD. I'm unsure as whether to accelerate my plans or to give it the 6 months I discussed with L. I'm hoping the time away in the week will give me time to think, get some clarity, and hopefully GAL also. See how it goes.

I still have 1 telephone counselling session to go. Need to think about what I want to cover in it.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 291
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I'm still hanging in. No real progress. Have mananged tonoull myself away from snooping, which helps, but W shows no sign of abating.

Sometimes things are Ok, sometimes there are arguments, sometimes we have sex. I'm still being too nice about the whole thing really. Enabling.

I keep thinking about the 60% + of my time with the kids that I will lose once I pull the trigger. I am going to have to be the bad guy. W has no incentive to leave, or to sell the house. Countdown to year end has begun.

Occasional things over the last few weeks. W said she missed me when I first started working away. Then one time she said she loved me when I was going out the for with D5. Last weekend she was wearing her engagement ring again, albeit on the other hand...


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 291
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W has just informed me that she plans on taking a trip to the US in January and will *possibly* be meeting OM as a result.

She says she is prepared to be alone as a result.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Nov 2016
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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
W has just informed me that she plans on taking a trip to the US in January and will *possibly* be meeting OM as a result.

She says she is prepared to be alone as a result.


Man, sorry to hear that. So how do you feel about that? What's your next step?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Originally Posted By: Gordie
Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
W has just informed me that she plans on taking a trip to the US in January and will *possibly* be meeting OM as a result.

She says she is prepared to be alone as a result.


Man, sorry to hear that. So how do you feel about that? What's your next step?


Take stock. I guess this is it. I've told her that there is no coming back from this. Same thing I told her a year ago.

I'm still mentally processing this at the minute. Luckily W is going to be house sitting for her mother this weekend, so I won't have to see her much.

Next steps:
Talk to L
Talk to accountant.
Get individual counselling (still not done that).

It's too early for me to know exactly what is going to happen, but I guess getting the house in a state to sell will be necessary. She did talk about that last week, which was a change of position for her. Now I see why. Luckily there's not too much to do. Glad I didn't buy into this whole 'get a campervan' thing she wanted to, that would be more money I'd be out of pocket.

Then I guess we will need to sit down and talk.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 291
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Journalling:

W texted later to say she didn't know what she was doing really. I responded, probably more than I should, but told her to think, to spend the upcoming months thinking, but it was in her hands, it was her decision.

Yesterday evening, after phoning D5 (I am working away still) - D5 said she loved me. W said 'ILY'.

I'm reading nothing into this other than she is confused, at best, manipulative at worst. I am not taking any hope from it. I am resigning myself to full separation, including the sale of the house.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 291
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More journaling:

Yesterday W got pissed off. When she's told me about her plans to visit OM I got in a spin and impulsive texted OM's father asking him to intervene. I got his number off a public website- anyway, I assumed nothing had come of this, but evidently it had.

Anyway, later she told me she wasn't talking to him any. Lee, but was going to save up to get a nice caravan to live in until the house sells and she can buy a place of her own. I didn't respond.

Since then we've just exchanged texts about D5, who was ill last night.

I'm not putting any credibility into what W says, but will plan on the house going on the market in the New Year.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 291
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She is still talking to him. As expected. Carry on with plan.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 291
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Journalling:
Still working away Monday - Friday.
Latest contract is happy for me to work from home on a Friday, which helps.
AS for GAL, I train 3-4 times a week, but that's it. Weekends spent with D5 or working round the house & garden.

Still in limbo. Sometimes we fight, sometimes we ML, sometimes it's normal-ish, sometimes it's alien.
Nothing moving on the house, really. Will talk to the real estate agent soon.

L advised to work out the post sep living arrangements, as she sees that as key, including thinking of ways for W to be able to afford a mortgage. She even suggested seeing if we could split the equity more favorably and I act as guarantor on a mortgage for W, seeing as D is only 5 and I will need to provide a home (with W) for her until she finishes full time education (as well as a home with me).

Christmas will be here soon, and W is buying presents, including for me. I've got some things for her too. Will try and make it a happy time for the kids.

2018 will see some changes.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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Woke up

A trip to the USA may do one of a number of things. Likely she will find OM is a pock marked introvert who lives with his mother, is M, and a big fat liar. A long con. An Internet trickster. Unrequited stuff can be fascinating. Scarlet O'Hara syndrome.

Let her go, if it is less than true lurve, reality will bite.....

This sort of stuff is delusion and a start of a type of mental illness, hormonal delusions of the type that Sandi posts and describes. EA long distance is tough enough and a cover for something deeper, I am minded of MCS whose WW decompensated after a long time fascination with a POM who led her on, because it was flattering his ego. Or RD whose WW chased an alcohol with drug problems.

Both of these wonderful men did the most important thing, put their children first. This board is full of amazing men who did so, Joe whose WW got involved in the sex trade is another.....

Your children need your stability not the madness of a deteriorating mother.

Just offering support

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Chap,

Hows it going?

Hope the Chimp Paradox made sense.

Surfer.


M46/W40/D8/S6/T20/M12/Separated 6/2016,W takes kids
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Originally Posted by Surfer
Chap,

Hows it going?

Hope the Chimp Paradox made sense.

Surfer.


Yo, Surfer... been a while.

Yes, Chimp paradox was a good book. Lent it to my S (who is now 19), who managed to let his dog destroy it smile

How's your life panning out?

Believe it or not, I'm still muddling through this situation - I guess we've been officially separated for a couple of years now, although living under the same roof. W built a cabin in the garden with some inheritance she had, so she moved into that last weekend. She's in a position where she wants to start dating, after a spell on tinder. OM in America was still on the scene until a couple of months ago, but they've argued and stopped talking.

Looking at selling the house again in 2020 - last sale attempt fell through last year when the buyers pulled out.

I'll check back in... hopefully won't be another 18 months!


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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