MLC W and preparing for S or D in the new year

[Gordie]

Prior threads:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2719422#Post2719422

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2721485&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...t=11&page=1

Wow, I can't believe I'm on my fourth thread. Thanks to all for joining me on this painful journey. For those new to the story:

W 42 and I 42 have been married 20 years, 5 kids.
2011-2016 After baby #5, W starts changing everything about her life: appearance, friends, religious beliefs, doesn't want to be a SAHM anymore, starts a business
September BD: I don't want to be married any more.
October: I am in love with you and POM (age 22, works for my W).
November: W consults with a L and starts making plans for S or D for after Christmas

So I'm starting off this thread with questions I have about Sandi's rules. The rules have been extraordinarily helpful to me and been a great reminder of some of the things not to do (chase, initiate relationship talks, etc.). I know these are more like guidelines than rules, so wanted your opinions on the ones I haven't been following:

9. Not scheduling dates - we have had a weekly date night for years; we are still doing these; and think these continue to be good times for us...

11. Not saying ILY - W still says ILY to me and I still say ILY to her...almost every day...

15. Don't be overly talkative - W and I are still quite talkative, most days...not R stuff, but just about everything else...

17. "Make your partner think that you have had an awakening and...you are moving on with your life..." ...not sure how to do this...short of rushing the S or D proceedings...help!

19. Do not be cold - I think when I try to detach, it comes across as cold...need to improve here...how to detach and be warm?

20. Hold off on M talks - I don't initiate, but my W does want to talk about our M at least once or twice a week

[Dawgs]

The plan...and am working with the L how to get this in writing...is that I have the ability to see them EVERY DAY...even on days when they are sleeping at my W's house...

Hit submit too early...W says she wants/needs/is agreeable to me seeing them every day...the questions that you guys raised yesterday is how does all this work when one, three, five years from now...when who knows what happens...OM/OW/re-marriage, etc.

Gordie, my friend, it seems like you are putting all your eggs in one basket with her and the kids. While she may say she's agreeable, do you TRUST her? After all, you don't trust her about the OM, so what makes you think you can trust her now?

A little reasoning: this past Easter the exSIL came up. The exW told me to take the he kids out for the day...and when I was on the way home, I texted saying we'll be there soon. Immediately the response came back of "why don't you stay another few hours?" Red flags went up. So, I called a friend and he said something isn't right...take pictures of everything, the house, all of it. Which I did. When the proceedings came around, the first thing she did was pull out pictures of the house - in an unlivable state. Her sister and her staged the whole thing to have a better chance with getting the kids. My lawyer tore her a new one. Why am I telling you this? Because just as you said, my ex said she wants/needs/is agreeable to me seeing them everyday. JUST AS YOURS DID. But when it became game time, her true colors came out. Be prepared.

And, like you, I foolishly thought she'd never stoop that low - I, too, wanted to give her anything in the hopes of getting her back. But, just as with you, mine was done and wanted nothing to do with me at all. Period. I'm not saying this to be a jackass about custody and all, I just don't want you to come out on the losing end of it all.

Oh, and the OM coming up to you and telling you stuff? Just a little too convenient. Way too convenient.

[ForGump]

You are still wondering if your W has something real going on w/ the 22 year old.

la-la land: noun \ˈlä-ˌlä-\: a euphoric dreamlike mental state detached from the harsher realities of life

Your wife is in serious la-la land, Gordie. Her feelings are real, but she doesn't have a firm grasp on reality. Don't buy into any of her delusions.

About the child custody issue: you are perpetuating the unhealthy arrangement that go your marriage in trouble in the first place. She's going to keep calling all the shots, you accommodate and enable, and in the end she points the finger at you for not being adequate. She wants to have the fantasy of being independent while eating cake all day long, financially, emotionally, and sexually. If you had a 22 year old child graduate from college, who took advantage of all the freedom given to an adult -- sex, alcohol, whatever -- who reveled in being an independent adult ... and he said I'll do this as long as you support me financially and take care of all my needs, what would you say? That's what your wife is asking for: I'm going to enjoy all the freedom of a single, independent woman, AS LONG AS you support me in every major way. It's nonsense. Her wanting to stay, basically, a SAHM is part and parcel of that nonsense fantasy.

[sandi2]

So what are your questions?

Here is what I see in many newcomer men who have a WW. He says this or that seems to work good, and he doesn't understand why he should change it if his WW likes it. I see it as really being what the LBH wants, and he doesn't want to give it up. I have seen many couples who had a friendly relationship and continued doing everything they had always done together. Most cheaters can participate in the MR......while conducting an affair. As long as the H goes along for the ride, then she is more than willing.....just as long as she have the OM, too. That seems to be the case with you.

Exactly what in the MR has changed for her? She continues to benefit from the M and have an A. Why would she give up either one? IMHO, you should not act as if nothing has happened.....b/c it certainly has. Your W is in an EA, and emotional affairs are very powerful and addictive. For you to continue as though she is not cheating, hints strongly that you are co-dependent in this relationship.

It is not enough to tell her that having an A with another man is not acceptable. Your actions have to tell her that you will not abide in a MR of three people. Your actions have to tell her that she doesn't get the date nights, the ILY, sex, etc., when she defiles the MR.

You need to wake up, Gordie. Stop playing along in her game. I am not saying you need to run out and file for D. There are other steps you can take first. You need to set boundaries and be prepared to S or D if your W won't end her A.

If you had dropped her when you first discovered or was told about her A, I think it would have snapped her around. However, you have dragged it on and have continued rewarding her for emotional infidelity. A woman will not respect a man who rewards her bad behavior. You don't know how to detach and be warm?! Why are you concerned about showing her warmth? Come on, Gordie! She is cheating on you and wants another man!

[Steady9]

Gordie
----------
9. Not scheduling dates - we have had a weekly date night for years; we are still doing these; and think these continue to be good times for us...
-->just stop this one--by saying, "I don't want to do this anymore..." (you do not need to explain or defend...IMO)
11. Not saying ILY - W still says ILY to me and I still say ILY to her...almost every day...
--> Stop saying ILY.....(I am reconciling with my W for two months, but I do not say ILY yet.... she does everyday...but I am investing in the R but want to wait until I decide to say ILY and she respects that...)
15. Don't be overly talkative - W and I are still quite talkative, most days...not R stuff, but just about everything else...
--> Hmmm, just talk less....act like she is a checkout girl... brief, polite and to the point, but not emotional.... I think women can tell when me are attached emotionally or not... yo can be detached and polite...
17. "Make your partner think that you have had an awakening and...you are moving on with your life..." ...not sure how to do this...short of rushing the S or D proceedings...help!
--> goes with detachment...actions... for me it was fitness. I would run, lift weights and use a rowing machine about everyday...My W would come and look for me in the house, and I would be working out versus watching TV for example.
19. Do not be cold - I think when I try to detach, it comes across as cold...need to improve here...how to detach and be warm?
--> A checkout girl or waitress or flight attendant interacts with you and you are polite, not rude, but you are not attached to them.... it needs to be like that IMHO...
20. Hold off on M talks - I don't initiate, but my W does want to talk about our M at least once or twice a week
[/quote] -->> Simply say I am not interested in talking about that now... and again no explanation needed.

Now you have to practice a few times is my guess.... what will your W say when you are tough with her.... so be ready to stick to you answer...and simply repeat it, and then go on with some task....

For me, I said, people make their own choices, I do not own you, you are free to make your own choices, and I am letting you go now....

It was my tone or facial expression or something that caused her to "believe" me. I did not yell etc.. (I am a novice compared to others here, so just sharing what I did )

I think it took a day or two... but then she started actions to stay with me.

I hope this is helpful. My main advice is you got to get in to the zone in your head. You got to be this new guy---because, either way, win or lose, it is your best shot to win....and your best shot to be happy with how you handled it years from now...

Sandi says it---do what works

[Gordie]

So what are your questions?

Here is what I see in many newcomer men who have a WW. He says this or that seems to work good, and he doesn't understand why he should change it if his WW likes it. I see it as really being what the LBH wants, and he doesn't want to give it up. I have seen many couples who had a friendly relationship and continued doing everything they had always done together. Most cheaters can participate in the MR......while conducting an affair. As long as the H goes along for the ride, then she is more than willing.....just as long as she have the OM, too. That seems to be the case with you.

Exactly what in the MR has changed for her? She continues to benefit from the M and have an A. Why would she give up either one? IMHO, you should not act as if nothing has happened.....b/c it certainly has. Your W is in an EA, and emotional affairs are very powerful and addictive. For you to continue as though she is not cheating, hints strongly that you are co-dependent in this relationship.

It is not enough to tell her that having an A with another man is not acceptable. Your actions have to tell her that you will not abide in a MR of three people. Your actions have to tell her that she doesn't get the date nights, the ILY, sex, etc., when she defiles the MR.

You need to wake up, Gordie. Stop playing along in her game. I am not saying you need to run out and file for D. There are other steps you can take first. You need to set boundaries and be prepared to S or D if your W won't end her A.

If you had dropped her when you first discovered or was told about her A, I think it would have snapped her around. However, you have dragged it on and have continued rewarding her for emotional infidelity. A woman will not respect a man who rewards her bad behavior. You don't know how to detach and be warm?! Why are you concerned about showing her warmth? Come on, Gordie! She is cheating on you and wants another man!

Thank you sandi2. I took some time off from posting for the holidays, so here's a quick update:

W can't/doesn't want to pursue OM while still with me. To me, this one-sided fantasy EA is not as bad as a mutual EA or PA (though still bad). She still admits that the POM may not reciprocate (I sense there was something that may have happened between them, but I don't ask about the POM).

Thus, the holidays were all of us together as a family doing family things. It was a generally pleasant time for all. She initiated one R discussion. W is not a yeller, but she decided to really let her anger out--and we both felt better afterwards (one of the issues in our R is that she doesn't feel heard). She actually asked me to let her go, to let go of the marriage...and I said yes, I'm letting you go, letting go of the marriage.

My vacation reading included two books recommended by the DB coach (5 Love Languages, How to Improve Your Marriage without Talking About it) and one book about Codependency. Some of you asked if I was codependent and I honestly didn't know what that meant. Reading about it, I think I have some codependent tendencies, as does my W. I'm learning a lot about myself and my R with my W and others.

Logistical/legal stuff:

Her L advised her that I can stop paying her alimony if she co-habitates or marries. This scared her, as W and POM currently don't make enough money to support W's lifestyle.

W has moved away from wanting D to wanting S, not sure of all the reasons why, maybe a good sign, maybe just more advantageous to her from her perspective. I told W I don't want either, but won't stand in her way or drag my feet, so I have my follow-up appointment with my L to draft a S agreement.

Agree with all of the comments here that there is no path to R through in-house S, so after our S agreement is signed, I will move out. Part of me is dreading the S phase, but part of me is also looking forward to it.

[ForGump]

Gordie,

I hear some strength in your voice. It appears your mindset is evolving into a stronger state.

W and POM currently don't make enough money to support W's lifestyle.

I could be very wrong but I'm willing to bet you a quarter pounder with cheese, a large fry and a large coke with extra ice that W co-habitating with POM is pure fantasy in your W's head, let alone any type of a hook-up with him.

Of course she might connect with some other chump, but the 22 year old employee is pure fantasy.

[Gordie]

la-la land: noun \ˈlä-ˌlä-\: a euphoric dreamlike mental state detached from the harsher realities of life

Your wife is in serious la-la land, Gordie. Her feelings are real, but she doesn't have a firm grasp on reality. Don't buy into any of her delusions.

ForGump--you actually writing this down helped me a lot...I get sucked into her delusions...and this was like a 2x4...

[Gordie]

Reading through all of these stories, there does seem to be some conflicting advice from my DB coach (trying to build connection) and the vets (tough love). What is common is the advice about detachment. I need to keep reading and learning more about detachment. I'm improving in my detachment, but clearly have a long way to go.

Question for all is how does DB apply to my situation of what I think is a one sided fantasy EA with POM? It's different than an actual two way EA or PA.

Biggest take away from Five Love Languages is that my W's is quantity time and I didn't give it to her (it was the lowest ranked for me). My top was words of affirmation and my W doesn't give that to me. Since BD, we spend a lot more time together and W has responded well to that including comments that she wished we had discussed and made these changes earlier.

[Gordie]

Another question re how to respond to my W. Sometimes she throws out provocative assertions like "You will be remarried before I will, within three years." What's the right, detached response? I want to show I'm listening but I don't want to get emotional or say the wrong thing or get my answer used against me.