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Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: ericmsant2] #2707961
10/03/16 01:23 PM
10/03/16 01:23 PM
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Posts: 3,354
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AndrewP Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Andrew ... Just reading along .. I had to digest it for a bit.

Curious are you reading any books lately? I was not much of a reader prior to BD and all this but my journey required I change and a few recommend readings helped me along the way. Specifically in areas I really needed some help.
Actually I'm currently reading Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen. Based on CT1118's recommendation I also read The Little Prince. I'm historically a huge reader but found a bunch of my passions got curbed leading up to BD and especially after. I'm not sure why but perhaps as I was getting drawn into codependency with W as her depression got worse and worse? I'm trying to find some of those passions and peace again with moderate and I believe growing success. I used to be a huge fan of nautical fiction, especially the books of Patrick O'Brian and a few similar authors along with biographies of some historical naval figures.

And yes I've read DB plus a few other books like 5LL.


eric - thanks for the visit. I'm very much not perfect - I am indeed human with my own flaws most of which I think I'm aware of.
Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Andrew

Quote:
For me being here has much less to do with self improvement and self discovery that it does for others such as yourself.

Based on the above, I sense that you believe that you do not need/or have areas that you may need to improve on. Maybe I am wrong. The comment of “for others such as yourself” – seemed to be to a bit mind reading and a little holier than though type statement. I do not believe you made the statement in a negative way perse. It does though come across as if you feel that you have no areas of improvement. Do you normally communicate that way? Is that how you spoke to your W?

Did your W ever accuse you of being dismissive? If so, is that something you think you might need to work on?
Pre BD, W never had any complaints. Post BD when she was scraping for reasons she was leaving she did mention that she thought I would talk down to her from time to time after having too much to drink. And yes - from time to time I can certainly be a bit of a pompous @ss. I try not to be but it does slip out occasionally, even here wink Her other main "complaint" was that I thought too much of her and had her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with that (this was before I knew about the A). I know full well that I'm not perfect and ignoring the fact that perhaps she was re-writing history there was truth to what she said. Heck - I'm not even all I could be nor am I back to the AndrewP that I was perhaps 2 years ago who was a pretty great guy with buckets of self-confidence. What I was trying to say though was that if I was solely interested in self-improvement that this site would not be where I am making my home. I'm here mainly because I want my W to come home and know that for her to come home successfully that I need to be ready for her. Part of being ready is to heal myself and improve myself. Makes sense? Otherwise I'd be subscribing to Tony Robbins and going to SIL2 for fitness training.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Quote:
Here, I'll freely admit that the social media thing was a deliberate "pot stirring" attempt by myself to see if I would get a reaction from W.

Is this sort of passive aggressive behavior something that you feel that you need to change?
I do feel guilty about it as well as frustrated that any sort of push into W's world is a hugely bad idea if that helps. I rarely indulge in agressive behaviour of any sort - this was a rarity. I will stand my ground but won't push onto other's turf.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Quote:
I also recognize that it very likely had absolutely no effect.

Although this is mind reading….is this the reason why you did not post on FB?
Well - it's only partly mind-reading. W did not pop her head up to check to see if I was OK which would have been the only possible outcome I could have generated. The reason for not posting was that I don't like doing passive-aggresive moves - as W mentioned to a friend in one of her messages that I saw during the initial snooping when they were wondering if I knew about the A - "AndrewP is usually quite direct".

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Quote:
I haven't decided if I will "unfollow" W again or not.

If you unfollow her she will not know. If you unfriend her she may. Either way – you need to do what YOU want to do. Stop trying “tactics” – just be YOU.
This isn't about "tactics" which unfriending would be. This is about trying to stay detached. If I find myself getting drawn in to fussing about what she's up to then I need to unfollow to protect myself.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Quote:
Presuming that she's not re-surfaced by then would I contact her and ask her if she wants to be released? Will I want to be released at that point? I don't know the answers to those questions. It's still 6 months away so no rush.

I agree no rush. I will say that something conversation need to take place. If you feel that you have done everything you can, if you feel that you address any issues that your brought into the R…well then you may feel that you need to have a conversation with your W. That is your call. The “tone” I get from your post though is that you do not feel like you need to change anything and maybe you might just be right on that one.
And I don't need to tap on the tunnel and try to force any decisions from her either even though the lack of decision from her is a source of pain for me.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Quote:
Again though - I'm believing more and more that she is on a journey that she needs to complete before coming back otherwise she could well do this all over again if she comes back too early because of pressure from me.

1) I would not take any responsibility of her coming back. If she does, then she will do it when and if she feels like it. Regardless of if she is ready or not.
2) So I guess the question you really need to answer is…..do you want to ask a question that you may not be ready for the answer too.
3) I also believe that regardless of IF she comes back or not – you have some feelings to deal with. That is my unprofessional opinion.
Absolutely. There's a lot of pain and anger that I have that I will need to deal with and I have no clue how. I also expect that W will have a lot of pain and anger herself plus other issues. We're going to need help. Lots and lots of help as well as love, kindness and patience. One thing that I read which I've taken to heart - I think it was either you or Jack who wrote it is that I need to be very humble if she comes back and I certainly am prepared for that at least. The people here at least I hope can understand the emotions that I will struggle with if she comes back. One of the big ones I will be feeling will be gratitude which will help with the humble.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
I am not actually trying to fix or solve any problem for you Andrew. I am pointing out what I see and to provide you with what I think may be an objective view. I respect your view and if you would prefer I can keep my comments to myself.


I do not need a response to above Andrew. If you are looking for feedback…just give me a holler.
eric - I feel that everyone who takes the time to comment on my thread deserves a response. You have been one of the guideposts / lighthouses that have guided me through these deep foggy woods and I cannot let you pass by without notice.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: AndrewP] #2707963
10/03/16 01:49 PM
10/03/16 01:49 PM
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Hi Andrew,

Just a quick thought. You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned? This takes time and requires deep thought but I think it is a great exercise. I can almost promise you that there were issues that she never mentioned but you can deduce. In my case, there were no complaints and I was "the greatest husband". It wasn't until I really sat back and thought about things that I saw the flaws in our marriage and in myself and in her to be honest.

Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: pinn] #2707969
10/03/16 02:15 PM
10/03/16 02:15 PM
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Posts: 3,354
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AndrewP Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: pinn
Hi Andrew,

Just a quick thought. You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned? This takes time and requires deep thought but I think it is a great exercise. I can almost promise you that there were issues that she never mentioned but you can deduce. In my case, there were no complaints and I was "the greatest husband". It wasn't until I really sat back and thought about things that I saw the flaws in our marriage and in myself and in her to be honest.
pinn - Thanks for stopping by. You are absolutely right. There were some things that I believe W didn't like but never mentioned that I have taken action on. I've significantly cut back on drinking. The LBS diet has also in many ways improved my physical health and appearance. I also take more care of my own appearance and dress, not just when I am out but all the time.

There are some things that W didn't like though that won't change.
She didn't like the fact that I didn't like some of her friends or family members. Sorry - but I won't start liking people just to please someone. I would always be civil with them.
She also didn't like that I would follow my own path and do things such as wearing bow ties that she didn't approve of.
She didn't like how I would get wrapped up in new interests and dive into them and learn everything there was to know about them and want to share that passion with her (she was quite tolerant of it).
She didn't like how I would get passionate about an issue, get involved and try to make a difference or at least make a public stand regardless of what was popular or what other people thought.
She didn't like that I would occasionally suffer from depression, especially seasonal depression.
She didn't like that I disapproved of smoking pot. I would never tell her what she could or could not do but I think she felt constrained by knowing that I would disapprove.

There's probably more, but that's all I can think of quickly.

On the other hand there's a lot to like about AndrewP. He's reliable, loyal, caring and trusting. He loves deeply and passionately and can overlook flaws and tries to see the true beauty within his wife and children and all the people around him. He will make sacrifices for those he loves and for what is important to him putting the welfare of others before himself. He has a dry sense of humour and loves sharing a laugh. He has a manly chest and a nice butt (after the LBS diet especially) Hi Rose!. He tries to see the good and the value in all people no matter their station in life.

I think I've written elsewhere but feel that this is really important. I'm trying to be the best AndrewP that I can be. Not the best husband for W, the best AndrewP. If, after W completes her own journey she doesn't want that AndrewP for a husband, then that's her choice.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: AndrewP] #2708071
10/04/16 05:20 AM
10/04/16 05:20 AM
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Rose888 Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
Originally Posted By: pinn
Hi Andrew,

Just a quick thought. You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned? This takes time and requires deep thought but I think it is a great exercise. I can almost promise you that there were issues that she never mentioned but you can deduce. In my case, there were no complaints and I was "the greatest husband". It wasn't until I really sat back and thought about things that I saw the flaws in our marriage and in myself and in her to be honest.
pinn - Thanks for stopping by. You are absolutely right. There were some things that I believe W didn't like but never mentioned that I have taken action on. I've significantly cut back on drinking. The LBS diet has also in many ways improved my physical health and appearance. I also take more care of my own appearance and dress, not just when I am out but all the time.

There are some things that W didn't like though that won't change.
She didn't like the fact that I didn't like some of her friends or family members. Sorry - but I won't start liking people just to please someone. I would always be civil with them.
She also didn't like that I would follow my own path and do things such as wearing bow ties that she didn't approve of.
She didn't like how I would get wrapped up in new interests and dive into them and learn everything there was to know about them and want to share that passion with her (she was quite tolerant of it).
She didn't like how I would get passionate about an issue, get involved and try to make a difference or at least make a public stand regardless of what was popular or what other people thought.
She didn't like that I would occasionally suffer from depression, especially seasonal depression.
She didn't like that I disapproved of smoking pot. I would never tell her what she could or could not do but I think she felt constrained by knowing that I would disapprove.

There's probably more, but that's all I can think of quickly.

On the other hand there's a lot to like about AndrewP. He's reliable, loyal, caring and trusting. He loves deeply and passionately and can overlook flaws and tries to see the true beauty within his wife and children and all the people around him. He will make sacrifices for those he loves and for what is important to him putting the welfare of others before himself. He has a dry sense of humour and loves sharing a laugh. He has a manly chest and a nice butt (after the LBS diet especially) Hi Rose!. He tries to see the good and the value in all people no matter their station in life.

I think I've written elsewhere but feel that this is really important. I'm trying to be the best AndrewP that I can be. Not the best husband for W, the best AndrewP. If, after W completes her own journey she doesn't want that AndrewP for a husband, then that's her choice.


What I find interesting about this list is that it is still told from your point of view. It is not reflective of an attempt to see things from your wife's perspective. For example, would she describe it as "sharing your passion with her" or would she describe it as "getting obsessed with a topic and lecturing me about it nonstop so we can't ever talk about anything else"? Would she describe your behavior to her friends as "civil" or would she say you are coldly formal and make them feel uncomfortable in your home?

There's definitely a "take me or leave me" quality to the list, rather than the impression of a spouse who is trying to understand the marriage from the other person's perspective.

You've been telling us you weren't interested in working on you, but I didn't really understand until I saw this post.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: Rose888] #2708091
10/04/16 06:34 AM
10/04/16 06:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3,354
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AndrewP Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rose888
What I find interesting about this list is that it is still told from your point of view. It is not reflective of an attempt to see things from your wife's perspective. For example, would she describe it as "sharing your passion with her" or would she describe it as "getting obsessed with a topic and lecturing me about it nonstop so we can't ever talk about anything else"? Would she describe your behavior to her friends as "civil" or would she say you are coldly formal and make them feel uncomfortable in your home?

There's definitely a "take me or leave me" quality to the list, rather than the impression of a spouse who is trying to understand the marriage from the other person's perspective.

You've been telling us you weren't interested in working on you, but I didn't really understand until I saw this post.

Rose - thanks for stopping by. My W never talked to me over the 27 years of marriage about any issues she may have had with me. She's been completely silent to me since she left. I've certainly tried to look at myself from the outside which is difficult for anyone but I certainly can't mind-read what issues she may have had so I honestly have no idea what her perspective would be. How could I? Trust me, I have given this a lot of deep thought.

Yes - there is a "take me or leave me" attitude here. I'm not going to change just to please my W who isn't even here to be pleased. I especially won't be making changes to who I am to satisfy some vague guesses that I may have about what she may or may not find appealing. That in my opinion is being a door-mat trying to pretend to be someone / something you're not just to please another person. I do want my W to come back to me as someone that she can respect and love which she did for at least 26 1/2 of our 27 years together. Why would I try to become someone else? As I mentioned, I quite like the me that I am and I believe as I said that my W did as well. Even from her friends and after she moved out I've never heard any complaints of substance about me that she has made. And yes, one of my W's complaints about me over the years was about my high level of self-confidence - please note that I didn't say arrogance because I feel that I'm not arrogant. There is a difference in my mind.

With all that said I do disagree that I'm not working on me. I am and always will be a "work in progress". We all change over time and I certainly have changed in this journey but unfortunately not in all ways for the better. I'm a sadder and less trusting man that I used to be. That I'm working on. My self confidence has indeed taken a hit and I'm working on that too. My ability to focus for a period of time has diminished and I'm working on that. I'm also taking ownership of things in the past that were the domain of my W such as all the cooking, cleaning, and making our home look nice. In each of those other than the cooking (W was a very good cook when she put her mind to it) I am doing rather well and if I do say so myself am doing a better job at it than W did with the proviso that it's easier cleaning up after one person and 2 cats than 2 people, 3 cats and a dog (one of our cats died just before W left).

And here I thought that a man who was comfortable with himself would be "attractive" to you wink There are good men out there who make great husbands. I like to think that I'm one of them. What happened to W to make her fall in love with OM and then leave is still a mystery to me. I can put the blame on peri-menopause or MLC or any number of things but I can't possibly know.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: AndrewP] #2708100
10/04/16 06:54 AM
10/04/16 06:54 AM
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Andrew,

No one wants you to become someone you are not. Just trying to get you to see things from her perspective.

You said you want to be ready for when she comes home. So maybe, it's good to think about what Rose said, because that could have been her perspective. If she ever does come back, maybe it's something to be addressed, and you can understand maybe how something may have looked to you, vs. how it looked to her and compromise on how to handle those things. This does not mean change who you are. Changing how you handle situations and differing opinions or views doesn't change who you are to the core.

Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: Ginger1] #2708113
10/04/16 07:53 AM
10/04/16 07:53 AM
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Posts: 3,354
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AndrewP Offline OP
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Ginger - I don't mean to sound dismissive and I'm not wanting to be but please how could I possibly know?.

Trust me, I have indeed given this a lot of thought. I've also asked friends and mutual acquaintances. Maybe I could get you and your D to move in with me for a few months and point out my flaws? wink It's a big house, lots of room for everyone. I believe you have horses? They could go out to my youngest brother's farm which is not far away.

I don't want to end up like my W seemed to be after BD1 when I begged and pleaded with her to tell me "why" she felt she had no choice but to leave, scraping the bottom of the barrel to find reasons, looking for any possible imperfection or flaw and trying to polish it bright.
Before you ask - here were her reasons for wanting to leave:
- She didn't want us to end up like her parents bickering in a nursing home
- she may be like her father but as a couple we're nothing like them and we've never fought / bickered / nagged at each other. We did have some arguments in our early years but they were always civil because they were being held in front of the kids - they in hindsight were probably rather funny to watch

- I would sometimes talk down to her especially after a few beer
- Yes, I'm a bit of a pompous ass but never intentionally - working on that bit and the beer is cut back to practically nothing

- Sometimes when I complimented her it sounded insincere
- Yes, I'll agree with this - I was trying to help her feel good about herself. Perhaps misguided but I "never" would say anything that wasn't positive and always tried to find positive things to say to / about her. It did require a stretch on rare occasions.

- I put her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with it
- I adored her, of course she was on a pedestal but I was very aware of her flaws. I just never complained about them because they didn't matter enough to me. You accept the whole person when you marry them.

Other things she mentioned:

- She was a far better person for being married to me than she would have been otherwise because she tried to live up to my high standards.

- She never intended to have an A - it was accidental (I interpreted this as she never intended to fall in love with OM - you can't get naked and have sex multiple times over the course of weeks and months "accidentally")

I know you and Rose and others are wanting to help me be all that I can be and I do appreciate it. Dashing around and making changes and trying to fix things that may not be broken isn't a good use of my energy which I need to spend healing.

Minor side-story which illustrates my point. I was talking to my oldest sister a few days ago who just lost her H after a multi-year battle with illness that left him progressively more disabled. Through the later years of his illness and especially after his death she threw herself into "good works" and bettering herself through enrolling in courses etc. Standard GAL stuff. She's a well respected volunteer and as such ends up getting more and more calls on her time leaving her little time to form good friendships / relationships with actual people. She's also very burned out and has constant stress from the grief that she's never been able to deal with - to the point where she may have to go on medical leave and some pretty serious medications. Her IC has been pushing her to take it easy and take time to heal. Good advice I think.

I do indeed want to be ready for when my W comes home, if she ever does (having lots of doubts about that recently). But in my mind, a big part of the way I need to be ready is not by being a wonderful manly man with wide-ranging interests and a buff body (it is looking pretty darned good these days though). No - I feel that what I need to be is a man who is confident, strong and compassionate who is able to be the shore that she can rest on after her own much more difficult journey so that we can both heal together.

Makes sense?


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: AndrewP] #2708119
10/04/16 08:14 AM
10/04/16 08:14 AM
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Posts: 5,301
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Sotto Offline
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Hmm, I've been watching on the sidelines here but...whenever a lot of countering and justification is going on...that's a good time to sit back and have a good think about where you are at...

JMHO of course Andrew - but food for thought I hope my friend - and kindly meant too :-)


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: AndrewP] #2708121
10/04/16 08:18 AM
10/04/16 08:18 AM
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Ginger1 Offline
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Oh Andrew.


No, my daughter and I would not like to move in with you and point out your flaws. That's what you aren't seeing. I am not pointing out your "flaws" Nor am I calling these things "flaws". I certainly get no joy out of pointing out others "flaws" No none is saying go out there and perfect yourself physically and change everything about you to meet her standards at all. I believe we accept a person as a whole also. Of course there are things you couldn't possibly know, but I don't know that you are so motivated to understand if she comes home.

I am sorry if you feel like I'm just pointing out your flaws and I'm telling you to become perfect. That is not what I am trying to express to you.

And no, no horses here. Or dogs. Or cats. And our ish just died.

Re: The phantom cyclist - journey leg 2 [Re: Ginger1] #2708129
10/04/16 08:38 AM
10/04/16 08:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3,354
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AndrewP Offline OP
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Ginger - I really have no clue then what it is you and Rose are trying to tell me. Honest Injun.

I hate to take your time but I appreciate the fact that you seem to care deeply about what it is that you want me to understand but that I am obviously failing to understand.

You say I don't know that you are so motivated to understand if she comes home. I would pull the very stars down from the sky just to see my W smile at me one more time. Trust me, you would have to search very hard outside of these forums to find anyone who is more motivated to do whatever it takes to help my W heal and be happy again as part of our family.

We've established that I honestly do not know what dis-satisfactions my W may have had with me or our MR outside of those I've listed in this thread. She was a deeply unhappy person towards the end starting around our 25th wedding anniversary when our kids moved out and peri-menopause hit (coincidence - perhaps). Her unhappiness and anger at the world around her grew and grew over time as did her engaging in more drinking, hanging out with younger female friends and accepting the friendship of OM who she described to me as a great guy who she would have drinks with but who was "safe". She never expressed any anger or unhappiness with me except over minor things like me pre-heating the stoneware in ignorance. As of the last New Years Eve she was a devoted wife who was very proud of always being faithful (it was a common thread with her because of the infidelities of her siblings and father). When she would vent and spew about her co-workers, or the national leadership of the youth group she volunteered with, or her parents and siblings I would sit and validate (I knew how to do that even before I got here).

So please - if you can put it into simple words that a man like me can understand - please - tell me what it is you think I am missing.

PS - I'm sorry to hear about your fish. A pet is part of your family. I lost my dear cat after a long struggle just before move-out day. I actually think that one of the reasons that W stayed as long as she did was so that I wouldn't have to deal with that grief on top of the grief of her being gone.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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