Sandi's Reflections

[Cadet]

I am not going as far to say that every LBH who has a WW is the nice-guy type of man. I do get amazed in how many I see on the board that usually have those nice-guy traits. In all fairness to men across the board and over the years, i have definitely seen a few who were not considered the nice-guy type........they just had a WW.

I saw you start this thread yesterday however was on my phone and wanted to respond from my computer and read it all in detail.

Why are men NICE GUYS?

Answer:
We are raised mostly by our mothers, have teachers who are mostly woman, may have fears of abandonment, possibly some sort of shame that we are some how responsible for being abandoned.
We were raised in the post Vietnam war era/ World War 2 parents.

I know in my case my father was a "NICE GUY" who was raised by his mother.
So much of what I learned to be a male came from my nice guy father.
So he was a conflict avoidant,co-dependent, enabling personality, so of course was I.
Of course as stated above - mothers and teachers also have some responsibility in this trait.

So I agree that nearly everyone on these boards can fall into some category here.
And of course another question is how do we keep our children and grand children from falling into the same trap?

Anyways great posts sandi2, thanks for all you do.
I will likely link this thread in with your others so it can be used as a resource in the future along with the others.

[mrx2030]

Sandi, thanks for the advice and the post you have done, I have one last question before I stop posting on this board.

My wife of over 15yrs has had an EA of over 2yrs according to her. She agreed to MC we went whe she was ask to give up EA she refused and said that she was just there for me so Maybe I would realize it was over. Last Saturday we talked
She said could I still be friends with OM and I said No.
She wants an monthly allowance, she wants to get a career so she can be independent while she lives in our house and wants me to be her best friend not her H. I said okay we can start being friends and all the other stuff but you need to give up EA, she is not willing to do that. I told her that I couldn't do it anymore living in the same house being a family while she still engaged with the OM.
She will stay at the house until the kids get out of school. I care sh..less of how I will take care of the kids, had a hyperventilation attack yesterday.
My question is since you have live through this, Did I do the right thing? It might be to late now but shoulded I just continue being passive like the DB couch said I don't think my couch realized how deep my wife EA is, she is going by the books that EA only last 9 months it's been two years.
Any who, I would really value your opinion.
Thanks.

[TimR]

Thank you for the post Sandi!

I can see myself and my W in many of your situations that you describe. I am the LBH who reads into and analyzes everything, "ooo she was nice to me today!" "what does that mean?" "ugh she was mean today, what does that mean?"

In my own situation I am doing my best to detach and set boundaries. Since we are living under different roofs, how do I know if cutting off all contact with W is the most appropriate thing to do? Currently in my boundaries, I will answer texts if they are about the kids. If not I will answer some but not all. Also, with phone calls I will answer some calls but will ignore others. Is this the right thing to do? After all if she is being is becoming remorseful and wants to reconcile, how would I know if I completely cut off all communication?

Wedding rings?? She took hers off at least a month ago, I still wear mine? I took hers back when I discovered the A, which enraged her. Should I be or no?

[roist]

Yet another great thread Sandi. Thanks

Cadet, throughout my situation I have thought about what I can and should teach my sons. They are still young so I have time. I have every intention of using what I have learned to improve me, to also guide them. This is not the topic of this thread but I wanted to highlight it as an important point.

[sandi2]

Quick Q as I just re-read DR book about the WAW. And trying to read the definitions again as i may be just confusing things.

Is the WW one who has "cheated" versus the WAW who just has said "I am done'?

I know i am simplifying the above. I have not figured out if my STBX was a WAW who drifted to a WW or I was just blind anyway.

My sitch with the impending divorce once the L's get their act together has required me to be alot tougher and set boundries. As well as the last resort technique which I have failed at and am re-reading

Thank you for bringing this up, Rich. Let me clear about the "terms" or "definitions". I am not trying to superimpose anything on what MWD writes, b/c after all, she influenced me in staying in my M. I started using the wayward wife term, and did not suggest that anyone else adopt it......and MWD did not use that particular definition in her book. I said "I" started using the WW term, but people who were on the board when I arrived (such as Puppy Dog Tails, who later was known as Starsky) used that term.......and b/c I was a WW, I hated it. I would bristle every time I read one of their posts. Anyway, as the years passed here on the board, I could see some great advice being given to LBH'S....only I knew that advice would not work on a wayward. If she was not wayward....then, yes, it would have probably worked. I continued to see failure and frustrations in the H's who kept trying to bend over backward trying to become what his W said she wanted.....only for the W to treat him worse and worse. That's b/c the real issue was not being addressed. The real issue was not her complaints about him, but rather, her waywardness.

I think what really made me decide to start writing about the difference in a WAW and a WW, was when Vanilla came to the board. (I had seen other women in the past who referred to themselves as the WAW, but who did not have wayward behavior). Vanilla referred to herself as a WAW b/c she had left her abusive H. However, the first time I read one post from her, just one, I knew this sweet, classy lady did not have the heart of a typical WW. It bothered be me a great deal that she was putting herself into the same category, and trying to apply advice that perhaps was not pertinent to her situation. Eventually, I decided to express my opinions and observations of the differences in a wayward wife, from one who had walked away from a M....without having waywardness of the heart.

Waywardness is a word not used very much these days. The wayward lifestyle has become almost commonplace in our world. And why not? When it is accepted and even encouraged by movements like women's lib, and by movies and books. I was a young woman when women's lib first started, and now I have lived long enough to see it's devestating results. Do not misunderstand, I am all for equal pay and those type things, but I am talking about the moral decay that seems to have been rooted from those types of encouragements.

Sorry, getting too long winded again. Getting back to your question about the cheater. If a spouse has cheated, then I would say that defines them as wayward. I will go further and say that there are other things, and not just infidelity alone, that I personally believe would classify a person as wayward. The Bible refers to a wayward wife as being disobedient (that should boil blood of some women's libbers ). Hey, I don't like it either b/c I am a very independent gal, and would not like the idea of "obeying" my H! Actually, it means to go against him and the boundaries of marriage. To act as if she is not a married woman. To act as if she is not his W, or that she respects him and her M vows. To be resistant and to rebell in mind, attitude, and behavior.

IMO, a Wife is wayward when she is overtly disrespectful to her spouse, and engages in acts that she knows are unacceptable for a wife and mother. When she is riotious. When she willfully does things unbecoming of a married woman (Any type of inappropriate Internet or phone activity; bar hopping; flirting and sexting with men; wild partying; coming home in the wee hours of the morning; spending nights away from home with a "friend"; acting like a rebellious teenager who goes against morality, tradition, and conforming to the role of respected, loving, devoted wife & mother). She may do these things without actually having sex with a man, but usually sex of some kind is involved. These are usually the prelude to sexual hookups. I did not actually have physical sex with the OM, but what I did was indecent. And yes, it was cheating. I was very wayward. Perhaps I was not as bad as some others, maybe I was worse than some. The overt behavior stems from what is in the heart. I believe any type of an A is cheating.

[sandi2]

What advice do you give for us in this sitch. My wife left 9 months ago but checked out long before that.
Do you think divorce is the only way to go?

Hi Bob, before divorce, I would advise the H to drop the rope and act as if they are already D. Go as dark as possible. The divorce papers just makes it legal, however, she should get a taste of how it will be.

[daybyday]

Great stuff Sandi. Thanks for such depth. Wouldn't alot of this apply to WAW also? I mean even though WAW may not have acted I would bet that most have thought about affairs and that would be a prompt for wanting out. So for us H's waiting for them to come around, they could be playing us just like WW do. I guess GAL is as much about gaining your respect for yourself as it is for WAW or WW respecting you. But you TRULY have to GAL for yourself and NOT to win back spouse. That is very difficult.

[sandi2]

I had read before somewhere that LBH should not fear separation, I have 2 weeks left before she is due to move out and am looking forward to some peace. I was wondering if you could expand on this thought or does it follow along the lines of not fearing the end of the M? Is it to do with the losses you mention that need to happen within her? I do expect the time without the kids to be a reality kick for her.

I do not think the H should try to stop her from leaving. He should not try to persuad her stay. Just let her go, and do not break down in front of her. Go somewhere she can't hear you, if must cry. It is important that you have a presence of inner strength. I don't mean that you act angry, sullen, rude or moody. None of those things imply strength.
If you think you cannot hold it together, it might be best to take the kids and go do something while she moves out. Some H's help their W move, but I have some mixed feelings about it.

She does have to experience consequences that come from her decisions. As long as her H is there to soften the way, clean up her mess, pay for what she needs, fix her little problems...........how quickly do you see her getting her eyes open to the reality of what she's done?

During the separation period, I believe the H should pull all the way back. This is not the time to pursue her and try convincing her to reconcile. Remember, I am talking about a WAYWARD wife here. The only interaction should be child related, until she can approach him in the manner I spoke about in the early part of this thread.

It is like when you have an almost grown child, there comes a time the parent has to stand back and allow him/her to learn from their personal choices and decisions. Consequences can be a cruel teacher........but oh so very effective. The LBH who is separated from his WW needs to be like that parent and stand back and let her learn. I have seen some people accuse H's of wanting to punish their WW. This is not about vindictiveness, revenge, punishment, or anything along those lines. It is about removing yourself from her life, as much as possible, in order for life to teach her. (If she was not wayward, the advice would not be the same).

If the H's fear causes him to do the opposite of what I've just said, the separation will be pretty much useless and a prelude to D. However, if during the S period, if he will let her get a taste of what D would be.......it could be an effective step to reconciling.

I have found out from a friend who told me that my W feels very angry, something I most definitely agree with, and needs her own space to deal with it. Now I also believe my W stories can be varies depending on who she talks to so I do take what she says with a grain of salt

.

The anger is probably the resentment coming out. Most WW's are very angry at their LBH. Having a cooling off period could be helpful. I think too many H's keep the WW in the home too long and her anger gets worse by the day. I know we normally recommend that the LBS not move out, but there have been some cases that I really encouraged getting away from the WS. I think it causes more damage to stay in a close vicinity with an angry WS for a long time.

[cubebot]

Hi Sandi,

Thank you for being brutally honest. I think I fall into this category of Mr. Nice guy in a lot of ways and not wanting to do anything hoping it will get better. With a WW I have learned it only continues and they will only push further. I believe that she doesn't have respect for me and that is ultimately necessary if there will ever be an R and also even if we only end up co-parenting.

[sandi2]

Thank you, Cadet, for the following post. I agree 100% about the Vietnam post war generation and being raised by mothers. Those mothers of that era were influenced by the women's liberation movement and other rebellious things going on our country.

Why are men NICE GUYS?

Answer:
We are raised mostly by our mothers, have teachers who are mostly woman, may have fears of abandonment, possibly some sort of shame that we are some how responsible for being abandoned.
We were raised in the post Vietnam war era/ World War 2 parents.

I know in my case my father was a "NICE GUY" who was raised by his mother.
So much of what I learned to be a male came from my nice guy father.
So he was a conflict avoidant,co-dependent, enabling personality, so of course was I.
Of course as stated above - mothers and teachers also have some responsibility in this trait.

So I agree that nearly everyone on these boards can fall into some category here.
And of course another question is how do we keep our children and grand children from falling into the same trap?

Anyways great posts sandi2, thanks for all you do.
I will likely link this thread in with your others so it can be used as a resource in the future along with the others.

Just in case anyone wonders, I like nice guys. Everyone likes them. I married a nice guy. It's just that after I married him, then I saw the down side of him being the nice-guy "type". My father was nothing like the nice-guy. He was a WWII vet and married to a very spunky lady who happen to be my mother. Can you imagine what I could do with a quiet, soft-spoken, gentle, easy-going, likable, nice guy? He thought he was marrying a sweet, outgoing girl that was the love of his life. He soon discovered she wasn't so sweet, and her attractiveness was fading. Unfortunately, he didn't understand that I needed him to be assertive, and to speak up, and stand up to me. I, apparently, inherited my mother's spunkiness. I needed him to call me out when I didn't treat him well and was disrespectful. I needed him to put me in my place, so to speak. Instead, he grew more & more passive.

I wish I knew the answer to how to raise our sons not to be the same passive type of man. To teach him not to be afraid to stand up to his wife and tell her "no" sometimes. I use to say if I ever had a son that I was going to teach him how to treat a lady. I assumed his father would teach him other aspects of it, but oh well. We did have a son. And I taught him how to treat a lady, alright. All the females thought he was the sweetest thing since sugar. He didn't have a lot of girlfriends, b/c they would usually give him the line, "I love you like a brother". Eventually, he married a sweet girl who I think truly loved him. I never saw the passivity in my son that I saw in his dad. He was very good to his little wife, and they seemed happy for a long time. Then she started complaining about him not doing enough to help her around the house. Which turns out was just a smoke screen for the real issue. He would not tell her, "No". I think she pretty much did whatever she wanted and he could like it or lump it. Over time, the attraction for him faded and she became dissatisfied and started an affair. So, I think I have a son who has nice-guy traits. . I really did not detect it before he married. How much his dad's passivity and conflict avoidance, or my teaching him to treat women special affected him, IDK.

My H will always have some of his nice-guy traits which will always drive me crazy, but let me tell you something else to that story. He doesn't seem to have any problems standing up to me any more! Of course, ever since my A, I have not given him quite as much to confront me about. I watch myself and how I speak and interact with him...especially in front of others. Human nature being what it is, it's good that he no longer allows me to treat him disrespectfully. So, people can learn to change. Both of us are proof of it.