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Vanilla #2578088 06/13/15 07:53 PM
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Thanks V for trusting my judgement. I copied it a long time ago into a Word document. There are no links in it--but thanks BIG time for the reminder.

I'll find it and post it in a few minutes.


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Bob723 #2578091 06/13/15 08:00 PM
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Smothering vs. Love

Thereís no such thing as loving someone too much. There is such a thing, though, as too much smothering. And smothering can definitely scare someone away.

So what does it mean to really love someone, and when does love turn into smothering?

Smothering, ultimately, isnít about love, but about selfishness. When you love someone, you want whatís best for the person, even if that means the relationship looks different from what you had in mind. In contrast, when you smother, you prioritize your own needs for closeness or connection, as opposed to what the other person wants or needs. This is one reason people can get scared away and run from a relationship.

So letís look at some differences between smothering and love.

Smothering takes. Itís selfish. When you smother, youíre really not considering the other personís feelings and desires. You may feel like youíre showing love, but if youíre being motivated by your own insecurity about the relationship or your own fears about losing this person, then youíre probably more in the smothering camp.

Love gives. Itís generous. It prioritizes the other personís freedom and autonomy. When you love, youíre willing to do whatever is best for the person you care for, even if that means you donít get exactly what you want, exactly when you want it.

Smothering demands. When you smother, you constantly ask about the future, insisting on specific answers and results. You also demand attention or reassurance from the other person, requiring repeated statements of proof of their commitment level or feelings for you.

Love patiently waits. When you love, you enjoy the present, allowing the other person and the relationship to progress at a comfortable pace. You wait for both of you to become ready for a certain level of intimacy, instead of asking for premature answers or commitments that can put pressure on the other person and scare him or her away.

Smothering disregards what another wants. When you offer continual statements of how much you care about the other person, you may feel as if youíre actually offering love and simply trying to demonstrate how strong your feelings are. But when the other person doesnít want to hear repeated avowals of your love, you can end up coming across as needy and desperate, merely because youíre disregarding how your partner feels and what he or she wants.

Love considers and respects the otherís desires. True feelings of love donít force themselves on another person in ways or at times that the person isnít ready to receive them. Again, sometimes the best way to show your love is to respect the otherís wishes and allow the relationship to grow and develop more gradually. It may seem strange, but there really are times when itís not the best idea to say ďI love youĒ over and over again.

Smothering oppresses. It pesters and desperately grasps. It calls too often or sends too many text messages. It results from fear and can end up making the relationship feel like a prison to the other person. Itís like building a border of rocks around a campfire to contain it and to keep it from going where it would naturally go.

Love offers space, respect, and trust. Love invites the otherís truest self. It frees the other to be and act and love how the person chooses. Whereas smothering encircles and contains the fire with rocks, love kicks the rocks away, allowing the fire to burn strong and free.

Smothering tells another what to think or do. When you smother another person, you tell them who they should and shouldnít spend time with. You check up on where theyíre going. You expect them to behave in ways you want them to behave, sometimes even through manipulation.

Love respects and encourages autonomy. Loving someone means allowing others to be fully themselves. Of course itís true that in a relationship, two people rub off on each other and help each other grow and evolve, but this process needs to be built on respect and appreciation for each personís individuality.

Smothering is insecure. Ultimately, this is the root of smothering. It can be produced by jealousy, fear, and anxiety, and itís one of the surest ways of driving someone away.
Love is secure. Love is emotionally strong enough to respect another personís space and to trust that whatís meant to happen will happen.

Relationships need space and air to breathe if theyíre going to survive and thrive. Smothering can therefore kill a relationship by depriving it of oxygen. So remember, thereís no such thing as loving too much. The real question you need to ask yourself is, Are my actions genuinely loving? There can sometimes be a fine line between loving and smothering, but if you want a healthy and long-lasting relationship, itís an important one not to cross.


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Bob723 #2578104 06/13/15 08:51 PM
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Things which ate ineffective with abuse


1. Telling the abuser your feelings
The abuser doesn't understand not because they dont want to but because they can't relate to your feelings. They make no sense. If after a couple of tries there is no apology that is a sign that this a systematic abuser. Just negate what they are saying "very funny" or "irrational". In normal circumstances this works, "when you say xxx, I feel hurt" gets a heartfelt apology and a "I will make sure that doesn't happen again". Not with a systematic abuser.

2. Explaining your thoughts/position
Don't protest or explain logically what is incorrect about what the abuser is saying. They will just argue back and say "there you are I told you so" . The abuser sees a counter attack not a discussion. The abusive statement isn't rational, such as "you are always selfish" , giving examples of when your not selfish wont help. Just say" if you say so" . A loving partner wants to know.

3. Improving your perceived bad points
Making improvements to please is a waste of time, the abuser won't want to see them as it won't suit their purpose. It's the abusers problem. If you want to improve do it for yourself.

4. Ignoring it
Abuse still hurts and requires some type of response. Even if it's "well really".

5. Abusing back (screaming banshee)
This escalates the abuse, makes you feel awful and guilty. To the abuser it justifies the abuse.

6. Believing it
It's nonsense stuff, no headroom. It's the abuser baggage. So say "what a load of nonsense." trouble is we buy the rubbish as its said so often. You are a compulsive liar and lie all the time! What rot. Not my view. Everyone agrees with me that you are! "oh really, let's go and ask X then"

Please feel free to add to the list. It's a straw dog. Do I know what works? Partially in small ways.

Loving the post Bob

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 06/13/15 08:54 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2578195 06/14/15 09:17 AM
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I watched so many abuse videos that when they made me dissolve into hysterical crying about how my life was no list could tell me otherwise it was undoubtedly abuse.

Sleeping on a gun for 3 months. Have guns just laying within had s reach of my xh2. Him hitting the child as a control move. Those things all add up to be totally controlling and abusvie.

It doesn't matter that you lived it, it's about weather you sign up for another round. If your prepared to accept changing you can hanging the game to live a different Life in the future.

There's a lot of information and resources in this thread and I hope sincerely hope those of you who doubt your judgement you use some of these to grow your self into something far stronger and far better.


M 46 h54
Both married before
T 11y
Bd 2/14 I must see where ow leads!
Ms 18 hs 26
Vanilla #2578200 06/14/15 10:07 AM
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I examined my own abuse diary and found these abuses specifically that fit the abuse pattern:

Walking away, sitting, watching TV ignoring you as if you are non existent on some occasions almost at random

Being really nice to others, especially those not connected to you, seeming to see your family friends and coworkers as part of you but then on other occasions being a charming host.

Not completing tasks as agreed because they didnt want to or changing what they do or denying. So saying "I will get milk today," not getting the milk then saying "I didn't say I would get the milk": at other times doing things because they like doing them or sees them as their domain

Getting very upset if you express any feelings, are unwell, or upset by something in your life eg a friend died, it's the anniversary of a death, they tell you to "get over it" or "I don't do Illness" at other times iare supportive. Went to another event was a crisis on the basis that "there was nothing he could do" and when Injured days "serves you right, you need to be more careful" but yet escorts you when Needing serious treatment.

Claims You do or say things you haven't, even if the conversation is recorded. But has an accurate memory for other conversations, such as do you remember when we......, you said......"

Sometimes wont answer any direct questions even about simple things, such as do you want a roast dinner tonight? Other times will answer with a whole book.

Demands things, no please or thank you, often insists you should now the answer but keeps changing their mind. Such as "I only drink A P P L E juice get that into your thick head", then going out buying orange juice. Or Putting something in the wrong place as you should have known where they wanted it put. It's as if you am part of their thinking, they have said it to themselves and you ought to know. Other times just gets on and does it. won't go shopping and criticises the food bought and on other occasions gives lists.

some opinions are valid and others not, tries to speak for both of you, "we" are going now, "we" prefer x. As if you don't exist at all sometimes and we are one person. At other times your opinion is the most important one when it's not. It's almost as if there are things you know that they would not be expected to know. His and her areas and they speaks for both of "us" on their area.

You can't have any other opinion than theirs on some things even the coffee "we" drink and "we" eat any other steak than filet. But You can have expertise in nail polish or nail guns if that's not their area.

Has has little interest in you and does little validation. "well you take it", "you deserve it" , "I don't care anyway" , "I am fine as I a, thank you" "it's mine I will do asi please" "its my money and I will spend it as I want". In effect rationalising and explaining away actions, justifying.

rarely apologises to you but will apologise to others. If you request an apology " I don't care" or "you should apologise to me". Even if there is clearly something to apologise for.

Often belives that you should know what they thinks without clarification as if you read inside their head. If you bought the wrong bacon or they wants a specific brand of beans. Believes they only need to mention something once years ago and it's a rule until its changed without notice.

Routinely tells you that you are wrong, a liar, or have done something deliberately to annoy or harm them.

This is much worse when drinking which can be almost every night so that it is best to be absent if they drink. rationalises drinking " I dont like bottled beer" or "I am lonely I need company". Claims they don't drink much, "you know I only have a couple of drinks when I go out".

So why if I have recorded this stuff would It be explained away?

The abuse IC says this is absolutely classic seeing the "other" as an extension of self ie as "non other". Having few boundaries between self and "other". They are therefore treating the "other" as they would treat themselves. the more the "other" states a separate identity the more dissolved the self. They can do as they like for self and act as if this is the case for self. Little regard for self means little regard for other.

Another IC told me that the abuser is trying to find what is missing within themselves by having a partner with traits that match those that are missing in them. So if they are a liars they are looking for an honest partner, if they are controlling then they look for a free spirit. When they accuse or label then they do so of themselves and actually they are paying you a great compliment. If they say you are ugly actually you are beautiful. If they say you are selfish then you are generous etc. this is your gift to the world.

Yet another philosophy is to imagine that the abuser is remaking an R with a parent or guardian which a damaged R. Another theory says that male abuses have been put down by a strong parent, particularly a father and that is how they relate to the world, having a loving mother will be another factor if the father thinks the mother is weak for being loving.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 06/14/15 10:16 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Ggrass #2578201 06/14/15 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ggrass
I watched so many abuse videos that when they made me dissolve into hysterical crying about how my life was no list could tell me otherwise it was undoubtedly abuse.

Sleeping on a gun for 3 months. Have guns just laying within had s reach of my xh2. Him hitting the child as a control move. Those things all add up to be totally controlling and abusvie.

It doesn't matter that you lived it, it's about weather you sign up for another round. If your prepared to accept changing you can hanging the game to live a different Life in the future.

There's a lot of information and resources in this threaUd and I hope sincerely hope those of you who doubt your judgement you use some of these to grow your self into something far stronger and far better.


Gg, what made you wake up to the fact you knew you were being abused?

What was the recognition oil, the videos or reading?

Did hitting your child influence your decision?

After H2 had gone would you have taken him back?

Do you think you would identify an abuser again?

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 06/14/15 10:11 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2578251 06/14/15 04:32 PM
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Thank you for putting up this thread, Zelda and Vanilla. Your journal was interesting to me, Vanilla, I could relate a lot to the ignoring, etc. The first few years of our marriage we did stuff together but at some point everything we did involved an electronic screen. When I complained about that he got defensive and angry and said that he didn't like .... well, basically anything that DIDN'T involve a screen.

His dad is pretty verbally abusive to his mother, though most of the family says "That's just his way..." STBX told me to shut up one time when we had to make a 15 minute detour to get his wallet (this is in the first three years of our marriage), and though I laid into him on that occasion and he never was that overt again, he did find sneakier ways to express his contempt for me.

I've been really examining the history of my marriage and there are definitely some flags in there. But I don't know if I'll ever know if there is fire where I'm seeing smoke or if my eyes are clouded by how things turned out.

Thanks for putting this up here, it is definitely needed.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
Maybell #2578264 06/14/15 05:37 PM
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I've been reading this thread with interest and some amount of discomfort because I can relate a little too well to some of it. I feel like many of us can probably relate to some aspects of what's been written and I wonder at what point the cumulative effect gets classified as abuse. I was not absused. Vanilla and Zelda and others were. But it seems there's a grey area in between. Any thoughts on that?



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
SunnyB #2578280 06/14/15 07:36 PM
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Thanks for setting up this thread, which I'm sure will be helpful to fellow DBers. I thought it might be good to have some suggested reading material on the thread. These are selected from a larger reading list over on the MLC part of the forum:

When Men Batter Women: New Insites into Ending Abusive Relationships - John M. Gottman

I Hate YouĖDon't Leave Me: Understanding Borderline Personality by Jerold J. Kriesman, Hal Straus

Stop Walking On Eggshells by Paul T. Mason

Why Is It Always About You, Saving Yourself From the Narcissistic In Your Life by Sandy Hotchkiss, LCSW

Nasty People: How To Stop Being Hurt By Them Without Becoming One of Them by Jay, Psy.D Carter

Controlling People, How To Recognize, Understand, and Deal With People Who Try to Control You by Patricia Evans

Stop Being Manipulated by George H. Green, Ph.D., Carolyn Cotter, MBA

In Sheep's Clothing, Understanding And Dealing With Manipulative People by George K. Simon, Jr., Ph.D.

How To Hug a Porcupine: Dealing with Toxic and Difficult to Love Personalities - Dr. John Lund


Last edited by Toots; 06/14/15 07:36 PM.

T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Vanilla #2578290 06/14/15 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Loving the post Bob

V
Hi V!

Thank you so much! My little contribution to the thread.

I hope others find it helpful.

{{{{V}}}}


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
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