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Reposted from previous thread per request before it locked.

Cadet,

Can I ask you a favor? Would you consider adding something to your welcome message please.

To encourage newcomers to examine if there is a history of verbal, psychological, emotional abuse and/or physical violence that has been present in their marriage, and that MWD does not advocate for applying her methods, or being the first to change in these instances.

I can't find it in the book, but I could have sworn I read a paragraph or two on this.

Those of us that have been in these relationships continue in them because we believe that change is possible, it will be better the next time, we can do something about it, we can fix, or that somehow it was really all of our fault that they behaved the way they did.

DR plays into this hope.

During 'piecing' my STBX escalated his control efforts greatly - emotional blackmail, verbal abuse, and finally physical assault (in between the 'highs'). "Doing what works" in an abusive relationship will often hold it together but will also encourage more of the same, too. I sensed that when my H realized I was willing to be the first to change - I told him as much when he came home - he used that against me, and took up a new habit of telling me how much therapy I would need.

I am not blaming this forum, MWD books for anything I experienced. But I think it should be an important disclaimer on that welcome message, just as MWD has a chapter that addresses how none of this applies to such a situation. I chose to be in denial for many years on the severity of the head games and control, simply because my H was such a seemingly kind hearted man.

I had six years of physical intimidation, verbal abuse, psychological twisting, and would probably still have it today if I was just willing to admit once again I was responsible for his reactions and behavior.

During piecing, I was happy to believe one can change the dance, as MWD said.

Ultimately, if a man or a woman uses abuse to get their needs met, there is no method, or amount of counseling, to prevent them from falling back on that - unless they are truly motivated and willing to make that change.

For your consideration.

previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2562100#Post2562100

Last edited by Cadet; 06/09/15 05:59 PM. Reason: link

Mid 30's
Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH
D 9/15; NC forever on

You can't DR your way out of abuse.



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I think that most LBS's are codependent, and that seems to be what you are getting at.

What would you like me to say?
Write it up and I will consider it.

Understand that what I have written is a compilation of words from many sources and I by no means take any credit for them other than "Paying forward" things that I have learned from those VETS that came before me or most of the others here on the board.


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Zelda09 Offline OP
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No Cadet, I am not getting at codependency. Anymore than we look at a woman's clothing choices after she's been raped.

I am getting at abusive relationships, and recognizing them, and understanding the hope that is sold on this site, that one person can change the dynamics of their marriage. I do believe that - but there is an exception.

Dropping the rope, STFU, do a 180 - my point is, before a LBS tries DR in hopes of putting their M back together - if it has a history of abuse - there ought to be a disclaimer of sorts that:

Physical, verbal, emotional and financial abuse is NEVER deserved, caused, earned or justified in any way. If there is this history, the LBS cannot stop the abuse through DR methods or inspire change in their abuser. If in doubt, seek the counsel of a professional educated in abuse and anger management and make your safety and well being first priority.


Mid 30's
Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH
D 9/15; NC forever on

You can't DR your way out of abuse.



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Originally Posted By: Zelda09
No Cadet, I am not getting at codependency. Anymore than we look at a woman's clothing choices after she's been raped.

I am getting at abusive relationships, and recognizing them, and understanding the hope that is sold on this site, that one person can change the dynamics of their marriage. I do believe that - but there is an exception.

Dropping the rope, STFU, do a 180 - my point is, before a LBS tries DR in hopes of putting their M back together - if it has a history of abuse - there ought to be a disclaimer of sorts that:]



I believe even MWD does not recommend you stay in an abusive marriage.

Again what would you like my welcome post to say?

this ?
Quote:
Physical, verbal, emotional and financial abuse is NEVER deserved, caused, earned or justified in any way. If there is this history, the LBS cannot stop the abuse through DR methods or inspire change in their abuser. If in doubt, seek the counsel of a professional educated in abuse and anger management and make your safety and well being first priority.

Last edited by Cadet; 06/09/15 09:40 PM.

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Zelda09 Offline OP
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We encourage newcomers to examine if they have been in a marriage where abuse has been present, and to know that physical, verbal, emotional and financial abuse is NEVER deserved, caused, earned or justified in any way. The LBS cannot stop the abuse through DR methods, or inspire change in their abuser through DR. If in doubt, seek the counsel of a professional educated in abuse and make your safety and well being first priority.


Mid 30's
Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH
D 9/15; NC forever on

You can't DR your way out of abuse.



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I think what is being suggested is some kind of disclaimer. I have had some training in the issue, and here are some off the top of my head kinds of things commonly said:

"No one deserves abuse. Abuse can take the forms of physical and sexual violence, emotional abuse, cutting a spouse off from family and friends, and financial abuse (to keep a spouse dependent). If your current partner is abusing you or threatening abuse, your first step is your safety and distance. Abusive spouses will often use coercion to keep you in the abusive situation, including threatening suicide, cutting of access to money, depriving the abused spouse of means of communication, stalking, or outright threats of violence. If you see any of these signs, get out, get help, and ensure your safety. Only then can you be in a secure position to evaluate the relationship with the help of trained marital and individual counselor."

Tinker, and condense at will. Obviously, shorter is better, and I am constitutionally not very good at this.


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Zelda and Cadet,

Before anything is posted on the subject of abuse in the marriage, I suggest that it be run by Michelle. After all, she created the forum, wrote the books, has coaching sessions, etc. She may very well have something more specific that can be placed on her introduction page of this site, which would make more sense then adding a statement just on the Welcome Page that Cadet created.

Just my two cents.


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From reading other LBS's posts over the years, I have come to believe that almost every person undergoing a mid life crisis is abusive to his or her spouse in some form or another - generally emotional and verbal, especially during the Anger Stage.

While I agree with reiterating that verbal and physical abuse is unacceptable (as posted by MWD in her blog http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/) I also believe advising every person whose spouse is abusive in some way NOT to DB would be a great disservice.

My MLC ex was occasionally extremely verbally abusive and struck me once during the 5 years I stood for my marriage. DBing helped me to set boundaries and get stronger. DBing did not save my marriage but it saved me.


Linda

Me 65, Ex 64
M 38 y
2 adult S, 4 G-Kids
MLC 11/07
BD 12/09
D 3/14
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Engaged to nice guy 12/17
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Oh, and I believe this is why the subject of codependency was brought up

Originally Posted By: Zelda
I had six years of physical intimidation, verbal abuse, psychological twisting, and would probably still have it today if I was just willing to admit once again I was responsible for his reactions and behavior.

I'm sorry you suffered years of abuse. No one should have to go through that. But you did not cause the abuse. No one is responsible for another persons reactions or behavior or choices or actions. Ever. Think about your rape-woman's clothing analogy.


Linda

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Engaged to nice guy 12/17
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Maybe what is needed is a thread on abuse with a link. Could that be recommended?

I doubt very much that I would have acknowledged abuse without DB and examining my lack of boundaries. This was my first experience of it too.

It was setting boundaries and being encouraged to do so which led me to finally say "I will not be abused".

Z has a very valid view here, sometimes (but not always) it is another poster who points out abuse. In my case both Sandi spoke and Gg (green grass), was brave enough to discuss her experience and then other posters spotted it. I really do believe without brave posters reaching an understanding of abuse, especially emotional abuse or verbal abuse and who mention it that dynamic remains undiscussed in sitches.

After my experience I do truly believe we have a responsibility to be open about this and to call it when we see it. Even on DB threads.

linda, whilst the person abused did not cause it, they are caught in a dynamic that keeps them doubting their experience. it's hard to acknowledge the abuse to yourself, and it takes a great deal of support and introspection to recognise it and change it. I can attest to that, and my journey into abuse was short and sharp. I recorded it and I would always encourage documentation to reground the abused person, to use as a reference when we doubt our reality. We are survivors in recovery when we do this. There is an element of Stockholm Syndrome iespecially when the soothing phase of the abuse cycle starts.

That is why DB is doing what matters and changing what can be changed. Doing that which works. DB an abuser, a compulsive or an addict is unlikely to change the abuser, compulsive or addict. Or to change their R. I say unlikely but not impossible. DB an MLCer can be very different.

The primary of goal of an abuser is to control not to twist for freedom, it is core to the abuser to control, abuse is that tool. My experience of MLC is limited but it seems that abuse is not the core aim of an MLCer. Abuse is a by product of MLC behaviour not its driver. Compulsives and addicts control to continue the addiction. it is the primary driver.

I have to admit it is very hard to admit that I have been abused, and even now I occasionally doubt the reality of it, until I listen or read my own experience.

I was diagnosed as non codependent, I did not enable my abuser. The more I stood the worse the abuse got, some DB techniques intensified the abuse but that is the thing which eventually caused the intervention.

Z is a very brave young woman and her journey of discovery is a very important series of threads. I commend her for her courage and determination.

V


Last edited by Vanilla; 06/10/15 12:59 AM.

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