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Hey Mozza, just my 2cents on a few of these points.

Originally Posted By: Mozza


1. It is not because my W cheated on me that I want to date. She cheated on me in 2009 and I turned down her offer to have a "pass" to make up for it. It's because this time she has completely walked away from the M six months ago and is now living with OM. So it's not a revenge, otherwise I would have done it long ago.

This rubbed me the wrong way, not really of what you said, but what she said. Offering you a "pass??" As...strange as that is...its a red flag to me and sort of puts things in perspective. To me it also shows that she doesn't get it. That cheating is not something that you can make up for by giving your spouse a "free hall pass to have sex." Cheating is not equated to..."well...i screwed up and bought myself a super expensive thing without asking..so...now you can go do it too and all will be better." No..I am so glad you didnt take her offer before because that would have caused even more problems for you guys..IMHO.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
This being said, of course this discussion is about my intentions and it's true that should my flirt turn into a date and turn into sex, I would go all the way.

Do you really think this is the way to go? Honestly? Because if you do this...you are justifying your W's behaviors because now you too are doing what she is doing. I know you are hurt, more than anything, but whether or not this is about revenge...once you do this...you cant take it back. Now although she left you and is in the wrong, up until this point, you have done nothing wrong. Do this...and you just jumped off the cliff with her.

Flirting, ok. Wanting attention, ok. But to cheat, and I'll call it cheating because you're still married to her, imo, is crossing the line that I really don't think you want to. Supposed W wants to come back to you and come home in 6 months. Would you want her, if she changed her behaviors? Would SHE want YOU after knowing that YOU TOO did something while she was gone?

Just stuff to think about...


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Mozza Offline OP
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Here's something else that might clarify the philosophical differences in this discussion. It touches upon the argument that since I'm still married, I should be faithful.

The duration of the M after S - the wait period before D - is a regulation, a social construct decided by politicians and technocrats. They are a reflection of the consensus in a representative democracy. They are different under each jurisdictions (states, countries, landers, provinces...).

They are not a reflection of my morals or sense of commitment. You get married where you live, not where the M and D laws reflect best your personal convictions. I happened to be married in a place where a D can only occur one year after physical separation.

As I stated above, I believe that the M contract is broken once a spouse leaves the M and commits to another person - this is more than cheating. This, and not the law of the land where I live, is what defines my morals.

For some, morals can be defined by the law of the land, but as I stated several times that my role model is Gandhi, I believe that laws are made by people, often change and can be unjust. In this case, the 1-year delay does not reflect my understanding of M and D. I do not feel bound by it, nor can my morality be judged by my obedience to this arbitrary law.


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Mozza,

You seem want to make an intellectual argument here...

Fine.

How does that square away with your roiling emotions about dating while still M?

Dash about "morality" and all that.

Is this the man that you want to be? Not to "become."

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Mozza..so I guess why aren't you filing for D? I agree with you that the 1 year waiting period is dictated by society so if you are done and want a D then the year long wait time is just a formality...is this what you are saying? You're done and all you're waiting for now is the year?

You sound...different..somehow. Im not saying you should or should not do anything, but like Wonka said...is this who you want to be?


ME: 28
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OK, a few responses already.

EyeTie | Thanks for your support. This being said, even I think that you're quite fast out of the gate with dating! Your S is very recent still (last month) and less extreme than mine as I recall. She doesn't live with OM and gives slight hints that she might want back, which your mediator picked up. Also, I'll come back to explain what is the issue that I'm trying to solve with dating. I've phrased it before, but I need to think about it more.

Wonka | Thanks for chipping in. I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point on the intellectual argument. I'm saying that I can freely date because I'm no longer bound by M even though I am on paper. I explained why there is still a M on paper (local regulations), but not in my life (morals). Clearer? (Your previous post just appeared, strangely, I'll reply later, I'm not ignoring it)

TLEE86 | I agree that it's a twisted understanding of M to offer a pass. That's why I didn't take it. At the same time, I was so focused on my decision that I probably didn't reflect enough on the offer itself and what it was telling me about my W. Another red flag missed. We should really have gone in counseling after that...

Originally Posted By: TLEE86
Supposed W wants to come back to you and come home in 6 months. Would you want her, if she changed her behaviors? Would SHE want YOU after knowing that YOU TOO did something while she was gone?

HA! I'm going to faint or have some asthma crisis should she event float the scent of a hint that she's upset I dated while she was gone. I don't even know how she could pull it off. She leaves me overnight in a smokescreen of lies, sleeps with another man, tells him words of love, commits to him, moves in with him and then, after she's done all of this, I date. Then she would say "But we were still married, how could you?" HA! No, really. No. It's not even comparable even if I do the exact same thing as her, but six months after she did it (which I don't, anyway).

One detail: When she emailed me she was with OM, one and a half month after leaving, she also asked me to let her know when I find someone (because: kids). She fully expects it and knows that she has no ground to hold it against me.

You make a very good point about whether I'm done or not, regardless of the D delays in the law. No, I'm not done. I still hope to save my M. I'll have to think about that. Just to help me think, would you say that I'd also have to avoid other women if I was D'ed and still hoped to reconcile?

Regarding the filing, she wants to be D'ed as soon as the law allows (she rushes everything she has to do) and I told her, as per DB, that I wouldn't stand in her way nor help her much. I'm not filing for her.


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Alrighty! You've asked for some clarification.

Don't tell me that you weren't forewarned.

I'm saying that I can freely date because I'm no longer bound by M even though I am on paper.

What do you call this if it is not an "intellectual" argument??!!!!

Reality check: you're are still a married man in the EYES of every person on the planet until the decree has been signed.

Still wanna to wiggle out of that one?

She leaves me overnight in a smokescreen of lies, sleeps with another man, tells him words of love, commits to him, moves in with him and then, after she's done all of this, I date.

How does this make it different??!! Pray and tell.

Still trying to contort yourself to satisfy yourself intellectually as to pass yourself as having some kind of moral high ground here??!! confused confused

Regarding the filing, she wants to be D'ed as soon as the law allows (she rushes everything she has to do) and I told her, as per DB, that I wouldn't stand in her way nor help her much. I'm not filing for her.

Ugh?! Let me try to get this straight: You want to date other women, but don't want a D. What does that make you??! A player?

Hmmmmm....am I just about right?

What kind of man do you want to be?

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Let me say that this is a very useful discussion. You guys give me much food for thought and I hope that it is the same for the readership of this thread. As Tarheel said, sometimes these discussions go one way, and in this case there seems to be a strong leaning against having sex before D, regardless of the circumstances.
_______________________________

I'm really trying to find the crux of the argument and not to split hair on every sub-argument. Here's another take.

Across cultures, eras and regions, there is a divide between people who believe that the law is the law and people who see wiggle room in it. This is what we have here. For some, as long as there is a piece of paper saying that I'm married, I shall abide by it, my morality and the kind of man that I am are measured by my compliance. The circumstances have no bearing.

I empathize and can sometimes share this view, but I'm of the people who don't see laws as absolute, so under certain circumstances I believe that there is a higher calling than the law. Given my W's behavior, I'm not bound by that piece of paper, which is made to last by a local law. My M was dead the day that WAW committed to OM. What I'm attempting to save (resuscitate?) now is not the piece of paper, it's the relationship.

We're never going to get out of this argument. I even believe it is ingrained in our biology, but that's for another thread.

For some, my willingness to date while married makes me a cheater with low morals. For me, under the circumstances of my sitch, it makes me a man with self-respect and a healthy attitude towards love, sex and relationships. When rejected by a woman (note: not "when cheated on"), I take stock and move on. Should she want me after all, I'd be willing to reconsider too and stop all dating activity. Again, remember that I've been faithful to her for our entire relationship, even when she cheated on me, even when she suggested that I have a pass. If I was just eager to sleep around, I would have done it earlier.

______________________

Wonka, I'll answer your questions quickly, but I fear that it will not really be possible to come to an agreement. Let's just hope that we can come to understand each other's point of view.

1. I answered above on the perceptions of the law.
2. The difference is in the sequence. She broke the contract, I'm no longer bound by it. If you stop paying the gas because the company stopped delivering it, you're not equally guilty as them.
3. My preference is for a woman that is unavailable to me right now. Until she becomes available, I am free to date others.
4. For the kind of man, see above the paragraph on self-respect.
________________________

All others who have contributed, especially PatientMan with his long and thoughtful post, I have not forgotten you. I need to re-read it all and think more. I'm very grateful for your contribution.


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Mozza,

Ok, maybe I'm glad you moved this out of my thread smirk

Anyway, good on you for taking the feedback as well as you have. I'm sure it's tough as this is such a polarizing topic. My only concern is a little by what PM said initially, it seems like you are justifying some of this based on what W did to you. That smells a little of revenge or resentment. I see what IC is telling you about women, but I think being up front and comfortable around women is different than pursuing sex. I know that's not what you are only taking about here, but the 'sex' word is what is causing a stir.

Like I said, i see our sitchs are very different now, and the D is just a piece of paper. What I think is getting people hung up is what are your views of marriage as a whole?

So a little story. About 10 years ago, my brother got D. They were having issues, but He cheated on his W. He came clean, admitted it and they never reconciled. Well, I remember talking about that with my W and was saying that I couldn't understand how they just decided to 'end' their marriage, especially because my niece and nephew were so young at the time. My W responded "well, he wasn't happy. It's better for them to be separated if he was unhappy" I remember that conversation because it was the first time that I saw that my views of marriage were different than my W's. We never really talked about it since then, but I see that view was part of the reason my W has done what she has done. I wonder to this day if we had opened up a conversation to really examine our views and feeling towards M could this have been avoided by her seeing my position or me understanding her's? I don't think either of us knew how we really felt until the last year or so and even then her view was confirmed prior to her leaving and mine was confirmed after I found out about OM. We really need to understand how we feel here about these things before we would move into a new R.

So, putting your current R aside for a second. Would you change your view in your next M?

Last edited by MCS; 03/19/15 05:23 AM.

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IDLY: 8/12/14
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Hi Mozza...I'm not sure if it is appropriate of me to ask, but when and if you date, will you be disclosing to said date that reconciliation with your wife is an option for you? just curious... I have dated that guy, and it was hard.

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Mza

My concern is for you and your children.

At the moment Mza can hold his head high and say "no matter what your Mom did, I stood for M. I began to date after the D, I am a man of my word and keep my promises that I made. I am proud of that".

And

"My ex wife behaved very badly, even cheated twice, but I kept my vows for the sake of my M. I stood for me."

A few months seems a small price to pay to know this for the rest of your life.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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