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Frank75 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

You sound wonderfully ripe for change. That's a great time for going. Besides, If not now, when?

Did you check out that personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience"? (Sorry but now I'm not even sure if I told you specifically about it but), it's in Philadelphia. It's also called "EE" for short.

It is for individuals to work on their issues, whether from work related problems or childhood issues resurfacing, alcohol, temper, or just some obstacles to overcome or goals to clarify, "EE" is excellent for it.

For me, therapy was usually very helpful. But some times it was "fragmented" B/c right after I had an insight or breakthrough, I'd have to go back to work or pick up the kids. Therapy was only an hour. The next week I'd have to regroup and start over.

So at times, for me, a long weekend workshop like EE was more effective at creating change and sticking to it. Definitely the most profound workshop I've attended, and since then I've gone back a few times to do "team", which is like a free refresher course.

You would get A LOT out of it, I think. Anyhow, just check out their website.

Then in time, if your w is amenable, attending Retrovaille is also a great idea. But it's for couples, not individuals. We went to that when we began piecing, which was a lot harder than I expected, and it was just what we needed then.

But that's down the road. For now, start with a good counselor. If you don't connect well enough with them after a few meetings (very few, imo) then find another one.

You want to have a good fit, so you trust them, and so you believe you will dig deeply enough (or they'll help you with that) and of course you want to feel supported and not judged.


My gut feeling is that you have a ways before getting to that point. (So maybe Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow...?).

Hang in there! GOOD LUCK, keep on keeping on.[/color]



It wasn't me but thanks for the info, i'll definitely check out that EE seminar. My family actually lives in the philly burbs so that might be perfect for when i visit.

I did hear about that Retrovaille thing before i think, but is it religious based? My wife is pretty adamantly atheist so that would be a big ask to get her to go even if they didn't bring faith into the actual process.

I'm searching for counselors now, i'll need to drive 5+ hours round trip for one but it will be worth it.

I'm definitely a long way from that point but that's part of my personality (problem also maybe). I'm always a big picture thinker and plan things out, even things far in the future. That's also a major source of conflict between me and my wife....she's a verrrry small picture, laser-focused type thinking. Which i think also played into this breakup, once she focused on me as a source of unhappiness that was it until i am gone frown And i don't mean to place any blame on her, that's just how her brain works.


M:39 W:35
Married: 12 years
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Frank75 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: susana4


Frank, I agree with what 25years said here, now is definitely a good time for counselling. As awful as this whole experience is, it is a good chance for some reflection, opening up, and making some real changes - that will benefit you for the rest of your life, regardless of what happens with your M. When choosing a counselor, you might want to try out a few, like 25years says, until you find one you get on with. How much you benefit will really depend on how well you get on with the counsellor and how much you can open up to them, plus there are different types of counseling so you might like some styles better than others.


I agree. Right now i'm open to change and self-exploration. I always knew i had faults, i just didn't know how or what to do to change.


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Originally Posted By: Frank75
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

You sound wonderfully ripe for change. That's a great time for going. Besides, If not now, when?

Did you check out that personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience"? (Sorry but now I'm not even sure if I told you specifically about it but), it's in Philadelphia. It's also called "EE" for short.

It is for individuals to work on their issues, whether from work related problems or childhood issues resurfacing, alcohol, temper, or just some obstacles to overcome or goals to clarify, "EE" is excellent for it.

For me, therapy was usually very helpful. But some times it was "fragmented" B/c right after I had an insight or breakthrough, I'd have to go back to work or pick up the kids. Therapy was only an hour. The next week I'd have to regroup and start over.

So at times, for me, a long weekend workshop like EE was more effective at creating change and sticking to it. Definitely the most profound workshop I've attended, and since then I've gone back a few times to do "team", which is like a free refresher course.

You would get A LOT out of it, I think. Anyhow, just check out their website.

Then in time, if your w is amenable, attending Retrovaille is also a great idea. But it's for couples, not individuals. We went to that when we began piecing, which was a lot harder than I expected, and it was just what we needed then.
--
Hang in there! GOOD LUCK, keep on keeping on.[/color]



It wasn't me but thanks for the info, i'll definitely check out that EE seminar. My family actually lives in the philly burbs so that might be perfect for when i visit.

OMG That's^^ crazy great news! (I've had friends fly in from Alaska and Sweden to attend. Do check their website b/c they have one coming up, but they only do a few each year. )




I did hear about that Retrovaille thing before i think, but is it religious based? My wife is pretty adamantly atheist so that would be a big ask to get her to go even if they didn't bring faith into the actual process.


I understand ^^ this. My h is no longer a believer, although he can handle the word "God" being said. I had some fears about it being "too Catholic" (for him, not me, b/c I am Catholic). I worried that they'd say we had to go to Mass together, etc.

For the record, if we were just dating, his non belief would now be a deal breaker for me. But that's my own internal dilemma as his wife of 30+ years.

But at our Retrovaille, which was "Catholic", there was a retired priest in the background, who volunteered to have anyone "who had a bad experience with the Church or clergy" to come talk to him. I thought that was pretty brave of him. I didn't hear him say a word about attending Mass together or praying together, although one of the team couples suggested that it helped THEM when they began to piece their marriage back together. Also, their stories tend to make most of us feel pretty good about our situations b/c they have some heartbreaking stories (the death of a child, multiple affairs or out of wedlock children) that make your situations pale in comparison. At least that's how I felt.

At Retrovaille, it's almost all about the "Team couples" who share their stories with you, piece by piece (the order in which they tell their stories makes sense once you realize what they hope is revealed to you). AND there are readings and exercises each couple does with each other, or alone.

There is no need to publicly share private things. Also, someone on team will call each spouse before the retreat to discuss/end any affair if there is one, and that has to happen before the weekend.

I am fairly confident there are Retrovaille weekends for non believers, but obviously a lot fewer. In any case, there was NO attempt to indoctrinate or convert at ours, but if the mere word "God" offends her, that could be an issue.

This^^ is another reason a workshop like EE might also be great for you, even though it's about individual growth. I've never seen a couple Not benefit by having even just one of them go. If you improve as a person, you improve as a spouse.



I'm searching for counselors now, i'll need to drive 5+ hours round trip for one but it will be worth it.


Good grief, where the heck do you live? How hard will it be to move? (But yes it will be well worth it!)


I'm definitely a long way from that point but that's part of my personality (problem also maybe). I'm always a big picture thinker and plan things out, even things far in the future. That's also a major source of conflict between me and my wife....she's a verrrry small picture, laser-focused type thinking.

Do you mean she lives more in the now, being fully present in the moment more? That's not unhealthy...


Which i think also played into this breakup, once she focused on me as a source of unhappiness that was it until i am gone frown And i don't mean to place any blame on her, that's just how her brain works.



I'm not saying you are "Blaming" her here^^ but I crossed it out b/c it does not help you to put your focus on her.

You cannot heal without detaching

and you cannot detach without Gal

and that means making yourself and the life you want to create, your sole focus.

Later on, you can monitor for results.

Make sense?

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 01/27/15 02:43 AM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Embrace the Change
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Great advice right there ^^^^


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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Frank75 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

OMG That's^^ crazy great news! (I've had friends fly in from Alaska and Sweden to attend. Do check their website b/c they have one coming up, but they only do a few each year. ) [/color]



I did hear about that Retrovaille thing before i think, but is it religious based? My wife is pretty adamantly atheist so that would be a big ask to get her to go even if they didn't bring faith into the actual process.


I understand ^^ this. My h is no longer a believer, although he can handle the word "God" being said. I had some fears about it being "too Catholic" (for him, not me, b/c I am Catholic). I worried that they'd say we had to go to Mass together, etc.

For the record, if we were just dating, his non belief would now be a deal breaker for me. But that's my own internal dilemma as his wife of 30+ years.

But at our Retrovaille, which was "Catholic", there was a retired priest in the background, who volunteered to have anyone "who had a bad experience with the Church or clergy" to come talk to him. I thought that was pretty brave of him. I didn't hear him say a word about attending Mass together or praying together, although one of the team couples suggested that it helped THEM when they began to piece their marriage back together. Also, their stories tend to make most of us feel pretty good about our situations b/c they have some heartbreaking stories (the death of a child, multiple affairs or out of wedlock children) that make your situations pale in comparison. At least that's how I felt.

At Retrovaille, it's almost all about the "Team couples" who share their stories with you, piece by piece (the order in which they tell their stories makes sense once you realize what they hope is revealed to you). AND there are readings and exercises each couple does with each other, or alone.

There is no need to publicly share private things. Also, someone on team will call each spouse before the retreat to discuss/end any affair if there is one, and that has to happen before the weekend.

I am fairly confident there are Retrovaille weekends for non believers, but obviously a lot fewer. In any case, there was NO attempt to indoctrinate or convert at ours, but if the mere word "God" offends her, that could be an issue.

This^^ is another reason a workshop like EE might also be great for you, even though it's about individual growth. I've never seen a couple Not benefit by having even just one of them go. If you improve as a person, you improve as a spouse.



I'm searching for counselors now, i'll need to drive 5+ hours round trip for one but it will be worth it.


Good grief, where the heck do you live? How hard will it be to move? (But yes it will be well worth it!)

I'm not saying you are "Blaming" her here^^ but I crossed it out b/c it does not help you to put your focus on her.

You cannot heal without detaching

and you cannot detach without Gal

and that means making yourself and the life you want to create, your sole focus.

Later on, you can monitor for results.

Make sense?[/color]



i know, weird coincidence. and Retrovaille i think is on the other side of the state.

As for that, sad as it is a major reason she's so anti-church now is because before we got married and we inquired at our local catholic church (I am/was catholic) and the priest there had such a NASTY reaction when he found out she wasn't baptized. It mortified me and made my wife feel so ashamed, it was just a bad scene. So we wound up eloping in bermuda. Anyway, sorry for the tangent but that's why it would be very hard to get her to go to something like that.

We're north of spokane right on the bc border. nothing much up here besides forest. it's beautiful but so lonely when you're in a situation like i am. moving won't be too hard, i plan on living minimalist. plate/fork/knife/laptop/futon lol

After 3+ years here living like it's 1890 (with internet) i'm getting kind of excited to live near people again, have a new apartment, gym/pool etc. Small steps


M:39 W:35
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How did it go with the doctor? Did you manage to get an appointment for this week? And did you manage to book a counsellor?

Wow, where you live sounds VERY remote! Maybe living somewhere with more people will be good then, should definitely help you GAL and get out and see/meet people. Make an effort to get out and make some friends once you've moved.


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No dice on doctor appointments yet. There's only a few "in town" (2+ hour round trip) and i guess there's a flu epidemic going on. The few people i called laughed when i asked about getting me in this week.

Also no on counselors, i'll have to go way further for one and i'm trying to time it to coincide with possible apartment visits

I'm obviously going back and forth moodwise/being optimistic. I really need to make flight plans to visit my parents before i move to an apartment just because it will be much easier. One of my biggest fears in life is flying so that's a major impediment. I need to just pull the trigger, but the costs associated with it are also holding me back ($600+ flight, car rental etc). Not to mention i need to be able to go there and JUST visit, i don't want to bring any of this stuff up so i need to be mentally strong. I know i should talk about it with them, i just can't do it right now frown Partly because it's hard and partly because i guess i'm still in denial, still don't want to bring it up in case a miracle occurs between me and my wife. Once i bring it up, it's "out there" in the wild and i can never bring it back. My parents love her and i don't want to taint their opinion of her or anything like that unless i need to. Because even if i say "it's not her fault" they won't care.

In other news, she came back last night from her night in a hotel. She was nice, we hugged, joked a little, then i gave her the bed and i took the couch. She works second shift today and basically stayed in bed all morning and said about 10 words to me before leaving. Which, sad to say, was par for the course of the last month or two. At least she didn't bring up moving again, nothing worse than feeling pressured to move. I know she wants me out, i'm sorry i need more than a wee or two to wrap my head around it.

I know things like this are detrimental and i know i need to get out if nothing changes (or gets worse), it's just a terribly hard thing to wrap my head around at times. I wish these surges of enthusiasm/optimism/whatever would come more often. I'm just having a bad day i guess.


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And i do recognize right now we're both doing the same things we did to lead us here (avoiding the subject/avoiding each other). I emailed her some thoughts the other day when she left for hotel stay #2 and she said she read them but "can't reply"....i'm not sure whether she's too emotional to reply, or doesn't want to break my heart further.

And then when she came home i wanted to try and discuss things but the fear of rejection kept me from it just because the first few convos, she was just 10000% done. So anything I bring up would obviously be aimed towards the positive and i just haven't felt like being chopped back down. I told her in one of the emails that i will always love her and she can't stop me from showing her that love and proving it through my actions. Probably the wrong thing to do but I couldn't help it at the time. She didn't reply anyway so i guess it doesn't matter.

I know i'm supposed to detach and gal, i know that. but when she's here and i feel her energy it's just so hard. Like she said the other day "this would be so much easier if you were angry"...it would be but neither of us are those kind of people. It kills me that what i did forced her to this point.


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And to make the day even worse she emailed me a few minutes ago telling me she "needs this" and she's solid in her decision (i never asked her not to be). She offered again to help me find an apartment and to do a short term rental to avoid being trapped there in case i want to move elsewhere.

She has all of the answers for how to physically get me to move on, too bad those aren't the answers i need right now frown


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Originally Posted By: Frank75
No dice on doctor appointments yet. There's only a few "in town" (2+ hour round trip) and i guess there's a flu epidemic going on. The few people i called laughed when i asked about getting me in this week.

So Call a psychologist or psychiatrist, and or a social worker or psychologist who works with MDs b/c they can help you get prescriptions. Tell them you are in an "urgent" situation.

Then imagine for example, anti anxiety meds that keep you from constantly pressing her for answers or engaging in "relationship talk" - which is a big NO NO for you right now.

AND OR getting something to help you sleep. I know that when I could not sleep, I also tended not to exercise, or get outside much, which made me feel worse and began a bad cycle.

For ME, just getting a good night's sleep, helped me feel alright enough to take brisk 2-3 miles walks (or as I referred to them, "Fury marches") and that helped me eat better, feel better, look better, and set a better example for the kids too.

Also no on counselors, i'll have to go way further for one and i'm trying to time it to coincide with possible apartment visits


See above. Are you near Wenatchee? I happen to know a few in that area. Yes it is beautiful there, but too remote without a large family or friends nearby.

Do you recall why you chose to live there originally?


I'm obviously going back and forth moodwise/being optimistic. I really need to make flight plans to visit my parents before i move to an apartment just because it will be much easier. One of my biggest fears in life is flying so that's a major impediment. I need to just pull the trigger, but the costs associated with it are also holding me back ($600+ flight, car rental etc). Not to mention i need to be able to go there and JUST visit, i don't want to bring any of this stuff up so i need to be mentally strong.

I know i should talk about it with them, i just can't do it right now frown Partly because it's hard and partly because i guess i'm still in denial, still don't want to bring it up in case a miracle occurs between me and my wife. Once i bring it up, it's "out there" in the wild and i can never bring it back.


Wow. You do have a lot of FEARS and self created/inflicted obstacles in your life. Sense any patterns?

Do you see now, that giving power to our fears of something, can actually create the very conditions that lead to the event we fear, then happening?

By way of analogy, I've seen several spouses here who admit they were controlling and jealous and insecure. They admitted that they over reacted to things and got more controlling when their spouses balked.

Eventually, these fear laden spouses, pushed their loved ones into the arms of another.

So these people effectively caused the very event they feared. Not to mention the self fulfilling prophecies that happen too.

Furthermore, note that there is a cost to NOT confronting or admitting problems.

Rather than helping a real problem "go away" by neglecting to address it, it (always) leads to a worsening of the problem.

I don't mean trivial things, but actual issues or conflicts of merit.

None of those problems "go away" on their own. They are either repressed and not dealt with (which makes some people think the problem is gone, but it's not). When a problem is ignored by someone, the other person feels that their spouse "doesn't get them" or "gets them but doesn't care" to address the issue;

and the unsolved problem leads to resentment, which sabotages the relationship AND OR
creates a chasm between the spouses, which can lead to the disintegration of the marriage, and or an affair.

If you don't tell your parents a thing, they'll be unable to help or support you and you need that a lot right now. Who knows what you'll lose out on then?

And by not even allowing them the chance to offer loving support, they lose out too.

As a parent, I'd be deepy hurt if my son/daughter did not share that painful and serious issue with me. How do you think they will feel, when you tell them months from now, and by long distance? Do you see how much more difficult you'll make it for them to help YOU, and or to feel included in your life?

IMO, They will likely feel left out, at best. They'll know they were deceived.

So in reality, you are damaging your r with them, by having what you surely recognize is an irrational belief that telling them this, somehow worsens something. Unless they are the type of people to insert themselves into your wife's life, It doesn't.


I wonder if you are just so used to not dealing, (which means your fears dictate your behaviors) that you are stuck or paralyzed by the fears you empower.


My parents love her and i don't want to taint their opinion of her or anything like that unless i need to. Because even if i say "it's not her fault" they won't care.


Meaning what? They'll blame her? Well, first off, so what? How does that harm you?

How does it hurt the marriage? They are not going to call her up and scream, are they?

Secondly, do You really believe that they are incapable of forgiving her, for whatever it is that needs forgiving, if you two work things out?

Think again and this time, for 2 minutes, take the fear out of your analysis.

Also, there are ways of informing them that you are in a marital crisis, without blaming anyone. Believe me.



In other news, she came back last night from her night in a hotel. She was nice, we hugged, joked a little, then i gave her the bed and i took the couch. She works second shift today and basically stayed in bed all morning and said about 10 words to me before leaving. Which, sad to say, was par for the course of the last month or two. At least she didn't bring up moving again, nothing worse than feeling pressured to move. I know she wants me out, i'm sorry i need more than a wee or two to wrap my head around it.

Who is the focus^^ of this paragraph? Much like most of your posts, it's HER.

I know you read the long post I sent yesterday, but you need to take it IN.


I know things like this are detrimental and i know i need to get out if nothing changes (or gets worse), it's just a terribly hard thing to wrap my head around at times. I wish these surges of enthusiasm/optimism/whatever would come more often. I'm just having a bad day i guess.


I am reading so much powerlessness in this^^^.

You have to take charge of your life. No one else will. No one else can.

Man, I really hope you get to EE as soon as you can. (I think there's a discount if you sign up before a certain date. )

Frank, you're too young to give up on life like this. That's how I read your posts...as if nothing is in your control. That isn't true.

You are continuing to "hope" you have better days and "guessing" that you might...that is no way to live.

Have you viewed either of the 2 TEDTALK videos? There is nothing fearful about them.

The topic of Doing/Behaving in new ways, and THEN "feeling" better,

(rather than the reverse, in which one waits around to "feel better" and "hopes" they will, someday, so they can THEN do the things happy people do)

is key to your life improving. You need to take that^^ information in.

I hope you will fear much less, b/c it's keeping you stuck, and sometimes those fears are actually making your life worse. So, do more, fear less.

Are you ready to take charge of your life?

Then let's Act on that.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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