I wonder if you have empathy for your W. She is going through a rough time too. Her M is also failing and she probably didn't mean to get there when she got married. Her situation with OM is complicated. You're not a positive presence in her life. Taking care of the kids might be hard. Yes yes, it's all her fault (well, maybe not), but it doesn't matter: it's hard for her too.
Let me tell you: if my W were to micromanage the way I take care of the kids during my week, things would get ugly fast. She emailed my parents because they gave soft drinks to our kids and I stepped in telling her to trust me when I have the kids. I'm not a perfect parent and neither is she, so let's cut each other some slack.
The other thing about your W's current parenting technique is that it's only transitory. She's in a weird moment in her life too. She's not herself. Over time, things will stabilize for her and she'll have more focus on the important things in her life. Don't assume that her way of dressing them or else is her new approach until the kids are adults. Just see it for what it is: a transition. Focus on what does real harm now, and not what might eventually become harmful over time because it likely won't happen anyway.
Quote:
Take something small that your W may see as important for the daily activities with your kids and then 180 it. You have daughters, if during your M wife was always making sure that their hair was combed whenever they would leave the house and then BD and people that know her start saying Mozza, saw your W and kids and their hair was a mess. What's up with that, is everything okay? It would cause you some concern, probably.
Not really. For instance, the kids tell me that they eat pizza "every day" with their mom. I seriously doubt that's true, but I assume they eat it several times a week. It doesn't sound like a healthy diet to me. But then again, they eat well at school and with me, so what if they eat pizza 4 times in two weeks? My W is not going to feed them pizza forever: she just needs to settle. People cook food at home because it's better, more varied, less expensive and more rewarding. She'll get back there eventually. I don't sweat it. No *bleep* given. Also, D6 told me that they stay inside the entire week-end when they're with their mom, something we never did as a family. So what? Again, it's a transition and they get plenty of fresh air the other 12 days of the week. Also, we spent Saturday inside this week, so it's not like I'm super-dad either. Again, no *bleep* given.
I'm glad the article was inspiring. The message is: focus on the big thing, then don't pour energy in the small stuff.
Originally Posted By: MCS
So my hard OM stand is not for today, but for the future. (...) I said to myself to try and shelter the kids as much as I can from some of these realities that they don't understand now, but will at some point in their life. (...)
With an OM in the picture, we are reducing the opportunity to provide that insight if/when it is need in our child's life. We are exposing them now and it will be on their own accord that they will figure it out, good or bad.
Sorry I'm obtuse, but I still don't get it. If you D, then your kids will realize it much later in life (same for my kids: I can see D6 doesn't connect the dots when she observes that OM sleeps with WAW). What is the problem with that? Are you saying the R between OM and WAW is impossible, yet they will act it out in front of your kids, and 10-15 years from now, your kids will understand it, giving them a bad opinion of their mom? Or making you look like a fool? I really don't get it, I'm not trying to play games!
And don't worry about convincing me or not. This is really not about convincing each other, this is just me trying to help you to articulate your position. It's for real life, not for here. ;-)
Originally Posted By: MCS
My issue with the whole schedule thing in general is that its all or nothing for her; she won't discuss anything else other than "MCS says yes or MCS is withholding the kids from me seeing them" Its been no in-between or conversation about it. That's all, I want to have the conversation and agree together. This isn't a win/loss thing; but should be a compromise.
No. It's about the kids. It doesn't matter how you get there, whether it's a compromise or someone's unilateral decision, as long as it's a good decision for the kids. You seem to want, as a matter of principle, to extract a compromise from your W. In fact, you say as much in your first and last sentences. Keep your eyes on the ball: do what's right for the kids. Your MC told you that any schedule is fine as long as you two get along, yet you do the opposite: you refuse a particular schedule at the risk of creating needless conflict between the two of you. Now you've painted yourself in a corner by opposing her demand and you will have to either extract a win, for no benefit other than your ego victory, or back down.
You're really annoyed that your W is getting her way. She's done something really awful in the beginning when she just bailed. BTW, it's so bad, it is one of the stories I tell people about what I read on these forums. Since then, she continued to be in control. It's normal, she has something that you want (M). It's the same for me: my W has a new apartment, new furniture and appliances, a romantic week with a new hot guy, a week with the kids, no more arguments with H (me), no more anti-depressants, etc. I often wonder aloud: she wins so much, why is it that not everybody does the same?? But it doesn't matter: it's not about crushing her win or evening out. It's about our goals, be it of self-salvation of reconciliation (and the welfare of the kids), depending how you ultimately see BD.
---------- OK, I've said enough. For all I know, I may be the only one with these opinions and I don't want to influence your thinking too much. I only hope it helps you reflect on and articulate your position.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
We got something going tonight, it's like old times
I get the micromanaging, I did it at first, but I've tried to be much more STFU about it recently. A lot of it is ranting here and that is all. Also, thanks for the transitionary statement, i didn't think about that really. I guess it's the same as the phase of the S, they change over time. It's a good thought for me to sleep on. I appreciate it.
Yeah, for the R with the OM, regardless of whether it's there or not, I do think that it could cause an issue years later. Again, just my opinion. My niece is 18 and over the last year or so started to figure out what happened to my brother and his XW (D 8 years ago) There was an A there, he ended up marrying OW. Anyway, now niece having some emotional issues and she blames it on resentment of the D and the remarrying, but it could be anything she would blame if it wasn't this.
As for the schedule, it's not a matter of principle for me, but that's probably how I'm stating it here. My kids are struggling with 'missing' the other person in the 4/3 day schedule we have right now. I hear about it most nights and during the exchange. They're doing better than they were before, but they haven't gotten the swing of this thing yet. I don't think more days in between would be good for them
Alas, the last thing for tonight is my wife getting her way. Yep, that's a big part of my resentment with her right now and it's really centered around just one thing. The kids. I am so incredibly infuriated that she has decided that I am only entitled to spending half of my kids life with them and vice versa. I got no opportunity to try and make this right with her for them. It selfish, plain and simple.
It's my biggest fear out of all of this, bar none. I would hand the house, my money, everything over to her today if I could have the kids, but that wouldn't be fair to them. It's why I stayed in the house, to try to make this the best situation for them in the current circumstances. That's just it, Im a grown man, and can take whatever the outcome is, but this decision that she unilaterally made for them, it eats me up everyday. That's the deepest pain. I'm not sure how to deal with that.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Oh, sorry one more post. I have a ton of empathy for my wife. I pray everynight that Gods hand will come down and scoop her up and comfort her. To help her understand that others can't make her happy, it's herself that she needs to reconcile with.
My wife is a wonderful person caught in a really bad position. I do realize that these are her decisions, but I can see how the friendship transcended into something more, how she felt she couldn't tell me, the pain she must of felt looking at me content and happy while she was struggling so much inside. How she spent the last year trapped in her own world with no one to talk to. The conflict of being intimate with me, when she was withdrawing, I could go on and on.
In fact tonight, I was crying to a friend as I was thinking about the situation my wife is in. How she's thinking she's trying to find her happiness in a cheese less tunnel. How her self esteem is so low that she's okay with what appears to me a relationship that she is just being used. It's so sad that everyone that would love her through this, she's pushed away. That includes friends, family, everyone. She's so lost and the person I see is not the person that I think is in her heart, but I no one can tell her that.
Im not sure if I said it before here, it's tough for me and pretty personal, but that night of BD; when I was saying to her how good our life was. She left and I sat there myself and was praying. I was thanking Him for all that he has provided to us and prayed how appreciative I was and that it was my turn to help someone else. I didn't know who, but asked for him to guide me to it. Well, look what happened 2 hours later. That's not a coincidence. It can't be. Everytime in my sitch that I've been down in the dumps, the same two messages come into my brain (thanks Mozza's, this post did it for me tonight)
Love her, MCS Be patient, MCS
I thought the outcome would be R, but now I'm not quite as sure, but I know this all is part of a plan that I don't yet understand.
Last edited by MCS; 01/13/1506:36 AM.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
(Mozza's don't read this....l'll get a big "told ya so" this is so not me, but I've been 'me' for the last couple months and it has gotten me nowhere.
Had counselling mediation today and I went in angry, but she put me over the edge.
It started out okay, talking about immediate plans for the upcoming weekend (what she told me to wait for counselling to do) we agreed on that, then moved onto a permanent schedule. That went okay, but it was obvious that neither of use could figure out exactly what to do.
Then we started to talk about bringing the kids to counselling. She asked me what I've been telling them. I said that I tell them when they ask why W and I can't work it out that I don't know, but God has a plan.
I then gave her the picture that S5 drew for her of the family together, and asked 'how are we going to address that as parents? I saw her eyes soften up when she looked at it and then she just shrugged and said I don't know and put it aside. That did it for me.
I said, I'm still concerned that W just ignores my requests. I said that kids said OM was over watching a football game. I requested that they are not around him when their with her (she says there's no R with him) She said, he didn't watch the game, he came over to move furniture, he watched the game at his parents house. Well, then I said, I saw OM's GF at the store. I said to W, "OM never told GF what happened, why do you keep lying?" I just can't take the lies anymore...kids said that he was there for 2 football games. She knows that I can't verify and that's whyshe countered,theyve been doing this for almost 18 months, they know how to cover it. but it doesn't matter. It's just I'm so sick of the deceit and lies about our R and our Kids.
Then I said to her,
"please understand this is your decision and no one else's. S5 wants us to try, D4 wants us to try, MCS wants us to try, but it's your decision that you don't. MCS still loves you, and if this is what you think will make you happy than I am okay with that, but I'm not okay about not addressing the sitch with our kids or working for healthy communications about our kids. We can't talk about them, it's been 5 months and we haven't even figure out what to tell them. That's all your decision not to talk to MCS. However MCS wants our relationship as co-parents to be cordial and you have decided not to. Either you can choose the path we are on or you can choose to try to work together for our kids. Like everything it's your decision and I'm going to go in the waiting room so you can talk it over with MC." At that I walked out.
When they came and got me, it was a little more calm, until she said "you broke my boundary by calling me when it wasn't an emergency. I said to her, "how many times have I called you in the last 4 months?" She said she wasn't sure. I said twice. Once on Friday, once after she cancelled taking the kids out for Halloween at the last second. I said then "how many times have we talked about something other than the kids and our near term plans with them." She said, well you can put that stuff in an email, I don't need to answer it right away.
So now I'm even more mad, but time was up. Then I had a low blow, I said, "at this pace, I'm fearful we won't even be able to stand next to each other at our kids wedding!" It was so low, because her mom wouldn't stand next to her dad at our wedding. Her mom constantly blames her dad for everything and always makes up excuses and lies about things. Well, even when I talked to her mom right after BD, her first thing she said was "MCS, this is what her Dad has done to her."
So the MC was saying to me as I was talking, MCS you're going backwards. But I told him beforehand I was done with this stuff of trying to tiptoe around her, it's gotten us nowhere. I said to him. "I don't care, we can't even discuss our kids, That makes me angry, how worse could it get?"
So then later today, she sent me a long email talking about plans for this weekend and asking about what to discuss with kids about our sitch? So MCS is confused, I may have put the nail in the coffin with any hope of R, but maybe this is what we needed for us to get it out on the table about communicating with the kids.
I'm done DB when it comes to these things, she reached out and sent an email, I'll send her one back tonight.
Last edited by MCS; 01/14/1501:32 AM.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Man, it feels like just the opposite. That's she's doing that with me. Mozza said the same thing the other day, why do you guys think that?
How could I treat this different, just let her do whatever she wants with them? How do I set boundaries with her about them?
I can tell you I have resentment that she will not address anything about their emotions throught this. When I asked her, she said it's better for them to have an emotionally stable mom? When I asked again, she said kids are resilient?
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
I also think you're using the kids to control her.
You seem to expect your WAW to act like a W. And it frustrates you immensely that she doesn't. You're trying to force her to have normal W reactions, to care and react the same way she did before. You're unsettled by her new ways and you're trying to force her to have the reactions that are familiar to you.
In a R, you have mutual 'power' over each other because it's an exchange. You promise fidelity in return for that of the other. You promise to care for them because they'll care for you. It's give and take. In a S, it's all out the window. The contract is broken. The person leaving releases you from any obligation, in return for their own freedom.
You don't want your freedom, so you're trying to deny hers, to still enforce the M contract. "Talk to me. Negotiate. Compromise. Explain yourself." You rationalize your positions, as I was explaining before: "Obviously, I'm reasonable and she's not. She should change." Even I think that sometimes your positions are not the only perspective (but they are valid). But the fact is that, she won't do what you want just because you want it. Not anymore.
You explained earlier why you're concerned that the kids will meet OM. Your explanation was about the impact of a S or D, it was not about th impact of meeting OM. You're concerned about them realizing later that their parents have separated. But it's already happened. They will meet OM, this one or another. I think you're trying to prevent your W from spending time with OM and you use the kids to do so. Once you understand that you're S, to me, the reasonable thing about an OM is to agree to introduce him only after certain time has passed (3 months? 6 months? 1 year?) so that it's clear that the R is serious. I don't want my kids to be introduced and get attached to a couple of men a year. It's something I'd suggest to my W, without any way of enforcing it nor guarantee that she will abide. It's something I intend to do when I meet someone, regardless of my WAW. It's just my opinion on this, but you will see that it takes into account that we're S.
I'm sorry your meeting didn't go so well today. It sure feels good to step out of DB and I wish I had the luxury sometimes. By the way, DB is not about being a doormat and you can make strong stances. It's about alpha men, not alpha dogs.
Do you see an IC? I do and it's enlightening, even if it takes time.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
A couple late breaking things on my session today at the end, but to answer your questions first.
I get it, but I guess that I have the more biblical view of marriage. There is no separation. There is marriage or divorce. Probably part of my struggle. The contract is broken, the obligations are broken when its a D. Just my opinion
I agree, that my perspectives are not the only one. My issue was she wanted me to agree with a decision of hers that affected me or the kids w/o even considering my perspective. I'm fine when its a decision for just her. I've never tried to make that an issue.
About introducing an OM into a R during separation, I agree with you on the timeframe. I really don't care about what she's doing with OM as long as the kids are not involved. That's it. but like you said, I can't enforce that.
_______
So, you saw my stuff above, I took a much more aggressive stance on our communications with the kids. As I said, it was important enough for me to put DB (validation, happiness, etc.) aside and just lay it all out. We were stagnant, we'd leave there with no progress and then I'd vent on the boards here. She was comfortable with me being a doormat with this stuff and backing down from any conflict.
So, just got an email from W. She said she called the MC after our session and asked why the meeting broke down. I'm not sure what was actually said, because my blow up was all centered around a)when she shrugged when I asked how we emotionally support the kids in this and b) when she told me that I should have realized to email and not call her about the plans for this weekend. I don't care, I'm not trying to keep score.
I know MC was trying to get me to calm down about things because I was definitely laying it on so I'm sure a good portion is true.
Anyway, she said that MC told her that she should warn me with R talk and then if I don't follow it leave. I see it a little different, she shuts down about any emotional talk (like separating out our stuff) but tags that as R talk.
Then she asked the questions that needed to be asked.....
She said MC said to her that she's never asked me what I needed for closure, she wanted to know. Also, asked me what areas bog down our discussions.
She said that MC said we need to get over these things in order to establish the discussions about the separation and the kids.
BINGO!!!!!
So I have a reply drafted, but go to IC tomorrow and will get her read on it first. I'll see if I can post it over here.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
