Busting this Divorce - 90 Days NC #5

[HPoirot]

Well... the last thread locked in less than 3 days. Thank you everyone for your support, advice, and hard 2x4s. I really really hope good people are learning from my family's highs and lows.

I am not a dramatic person. My W is clearly a dramatic person. Even so, we were a very very boring family before all this. W clearly didn't like that.

Right after BD, as I was reeling and starting to suspect an A, I remember lying in bed with W and her angrily complaining how boring we were. She had the miserable irritated look I didn't recognize then but that I've come to know so well.

We had gone on a walk that night as a family. It was one of my early 180s... more family time ideas from me. She looked irritated and was texting through part of it. When I checked the phone records later... well you know. That was the start of the real deep awful pain.

Now we're in drama hell...

Today I did accept W's invitation to her new online calendar. In it she had a schedule for the next 4 weeks. It had changed again... now more evenly split. So more nights for her as now she apparently feels more confident she can keep S12 at her aunt's house. No problem.

Later, I respond to her text saying I would pick up S12 today as scheduled. I do not ask her if she can follow the schedule but she will ask me to make sure she says.

I also say I found an IC for S12 to talk to. I tell W I'm seeing an IC and recommend my IC as excellent.

W responds that's wonderful and she left a message with IC to meet her. No problem.

I go to get S12. He looks very unhappy. I ask what's wrong. He says he is depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore." He says how he hates all this... and school and homework are too much pressure... and how is he going to manage his game tomorrow night when school ends at 3, the game starts at 8:30... but the aunt's house is an hour away? I say you'll have to talk with mom.

I text W what S12 said ... he's depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore."

She texts "call me." I tell S12 to call his mom and tell her how he's feeling.

He does... and he went off on her. Finally told her everything. How he doesn't trust her b/c she lies. How she's making him and me hate her. How he wants to see me more than a couple nights. How his life is over. How he wants to quit school he's under so much pressure. How he just wants to give up. How the chance of mom and dad getting back together was so slim he has no hope.

He asked... "How are we going to do my game tomorrow? Where am I going to sleep?" She answered I'm sure the aunt's house.

He hung up on her.

She called back and he didn't answer.

She called again and he answered and kept going.

She tried to talk about me. He said "Don't bring dad into this! This is between me and you!"

He was on the phone for 20 minutes. It was the clearest I've ever heard him speak. Very direct. He was very unhappy.

At the end, we were back in the condo and he was in his room. I closed his door so he could speak privately. I sat and waited for W to call me.

He came out. Said he didn't want to talk about it. Went to do his homework.

I missed W call... not on purpose.

She left an incredible VM... "Just talked with s12 and you're absolutely right. I think it's imperative we get a therapist for him. I also know that the feelings he's having are very normal for a child his age going through a separation. I am alarmed by some of the things he said but I am extremely happy he was able to express his feelings although they were very hurtful to hear."

She said all this in an even voice. She did choke now and then on some of the words.

She went on to ask if I had set an IC appointment for him. That the appointment that she set with my IC was for herself.

And she suggested we change the schedule again so he would sleep here with me in the condo most nights to give him "stability." She would then drive him to and from school and help him with homework after school (I guess at the coffee shop or school library).

She also mentioned she would get her apartment sooner, on February 1, to help S12. She said her idea to stay at her aunt's house longer "does not quite seem to be a good one for him."

She told me she expected to get an apartment near his school by January 15. Instead, she really planed to get that apartment later in February. Her plan was to keep S12 an hour away from his school on her nights for at least 4 weeks. That's 18 nights. Even when she knew he didn't like staying there and without telling me her apartment would take so long.

And again... on the first day of her new schedule... she has to take it all back and ask me for help.

And, with the therapist... I told her S12 was having a hard time. "Yes of course he's sad but we have a good time together." Now, she's alarmed and hurt about what he said but "extremely happy" he felt he could say it.

What he said is... he hates her and doesn't trust her and she's a liar and she's ruining his life.

I trade some texts with her. She says her IC appointment is to talk about S12. I make an IC appointment for S12 the day after. She texts she wants to talk. She texts S12... tell dad I'm calling to talk. He tells me. Phone rings. I take advice... deep breath, relax, then I answer.

She apologizes for calling. She sounds sad. She asks if I'm going to the basketball game tomorrow. I say yes. She says can I please help her with it. The aunt lives too far away. S12 wants to stay at the condo. She gives me all these options.

I say... very cordially with no trace of anger in my voice... I will pick S12 up from school... bring him to the condo... take him to the game later... and bring him to the condo to spend the night with me. You don't have to come.

She says she wants to be there.

Then she says... "But you have plans. What about your plans?"

"Don't worry about it. Is there anything else."

"Yes I want to..." She sounds frustrated and stops.

After a pause I say... "If there's anything else let me know. I've got to get back to work. Talk to you later." I hang up. Very cordial.

Later she texts me... "I just talked to the teacher." Then nothing else. That was an hour ago.

When I spoke with my IC... she was surprised my W called her and made an appointment. Asked if I was OK with that. Promised confidentiality. I said I wouldn't expect anything else.

...

I handled W very cordially. I was sad more than angry. I heard her tell s12... "I know you're angry I feel me and dad should be separated right now." At least she wasn't giving him false hope like she did before. She certainly does not feel she can cry to me anymore. I made sure of that. I would like to reach out to her now... but I don't know how and I know I shouldn't. Just send us all to IC
and we'll be fine.

So yes I'll be GALing at the game tomorrow and every game. I'll be cordial and empathetic to my W who has just heard her son hates her.

Oh, now she just called him again. He tells me she's downstairs delivering his bag of clothes. Last time they were dirty and I had to wash them. Let's see if she does that again.

[rd500]

Very hard to read about your Ss pain. So sorry he has to go through this. Stay strong for him , your doing great. Rd

[Karma12]

It is imperative that your son talks to a therapist. He is crying for help and with the teen suicides happening these days take his words seriously. His Mother is not able to be the rock he needs in life right now. So it's up to you. Kids need to feel loved, safe and wanted. Keep us updated.

[25yearsmlc]

YOUR SON NEEDS HELP ASAP. Those are extreme things for a 12 y/o to say.

Please get him help now. Call the IC today and repeat what your son told you about NOT wanting to live. This is no joke and not a "hollow gesture". It's a desperate cry of pain.

Unite with your wife on this as a team. Do NOT blame her for anything at this point, or you'll hinder HER efforts and appear to be guilting her at a time when your son needs to be the focus.

Well... the last thread locked in less than 3 days. Thank you everyone for your support, advice, and hard 2x4s. I really really hope good people are learning from my family's highs and lows.

This is a solution based site. Venting is fine IF IT HELPS CALM YOU

but if it merely keeps you stuck in anger or victimhood, mind reading and negating life, then it's Not helping you. It's hurting you and your cause.


I am not a dramatic person. My W is clearly a dramatic person. Even so, we were a very very boring family before all this. W clearly didn't like that.

Right after BD, as I was reeling and starting to suspect an A, I remember lying in bed with W and her angrily complaining how boring we were. She had the miserable irritated look I didn't recognize then but that I've come to know so well.

We had gone on a walk that night as a family. It was one of my early 180s... more family time ideas from me. She looked irritated and was texting through part of it. When I checked the phone records later... well you know. That was the start of the real deep awful pain.

Now we're in drama hell...

Today I did accept W's invitation to her new online calendar. In it she had a schedule for the next 4 weeks. It had changed again... now more evenly split.


you said you wanted this^^, remember? Be careful what you wish for.

So more nights for her as now she apparently feels more confident she can keep S12 at her aunt's house. No problem.

Later, I respond to her text saying I would pick up S12 today as scheduled. I do not ask her if she can follow the schedule but she will ask me to make sure she says.

I also say I found an IC for S12 to talk to. I tell W I'm seeing an IC and recommend my IC as excellent.

Wait, What??

You 1) disclosed that YOU are seeing an IC...why tell her that?

2) you suggested SHE use the same IC as you? Why on earth would you do that?

Doesn't it reek of manipulation? Isn't the real reason you are choosing to disclose that so that you can get an ally in the battle of your wife's choices?

OR is this some type of "parenting" Counselor to help you both help your son?

(If it is to help your son, I support that completely. Otherwise I don't get it, at all).

W responds that's wonderful and she left a message with IC to meet her. No problem.

I go to get S12. He looks very unhappy. I ask what's wrong. He says he is depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore." He says how he hates all this... and school and homework are too much pressure...

This is a Red Flare launched into the night sky. It's an SOS.

Heed his call, please.


and how is he going to manage his game tomorrow night when school ends at 3, the game starts at 8:30... but the aunt's house is an hour away? I say you'll have to talk with mom.


Why not help your son? This "payback" for your wife seems to be taking priority OVER YOUR SON'S WELFARE,

and imo, that's just wrong.

Even if you thought it would somehow help you reconcile, (???)

you are still deflecting from your son's problems and cries for help.

Stop making this about Your hurt feelings and man up to make it ALL about your son for now.

Seriously. This is a 911 Emergency and you don't get to put DBing or yourself ahead of him anymore.

Not now.

I text W what S12 said ... he's depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore."

She texts "call me." I tell S12 to call his mom and tell her how he's feeling.


This is ^^ getting insane. Your son just expressed SUICIDAL IDEAS

and when YOU TEXTED your wife-his mother-- and she naturally asked you to call her -

you fobbed this off on your emotionally fragile son. WTF???

He does... and he went off on her. Finally told her everything. How he doesn't trust her b/c she lies. How she's making him and me hate her. How he wants to see me more than a couple nights. How his life is over. How he wants to quit school he's under so much pressure. How he just wants to give up. How the chance of mom and dad getting back together was so slim he has no hope.


I fear this^^ made you happy. I worry that You saw his pain but the biggest thing you could make of it was how your pain was still more important... and inflicting some on her, felt great....too bad it was at the expense of your son.

He asked... "How are we going to do my game tomorrow? Where am I going to sleep?" She answered I'm sure the aunt's house.

The real issue for the game was that he was giving up having YOU there b/c you cannot handle it. I do feel that my last post to you, which I think Wonka referred to, was wasted on you. You are not hearing me.

He hung up on her.

She called back and he didn't answer.

She called again and he answered and kept going.

She tried to talk about me. He said "Don't bring dad into this! This is between me and you!"

He was on the phone for 20 minutes. It was the clearest I've ever heard him speak. Very direct. He was very unhappy.

At the end, we were back in the condo and he was in his room. I closed his door so he could speak privately. I sat and waited for W to call me.

He came out. Said he didn't want to talk about it. Went to do his homework.

I missed W call... not on purpose.

She left an incredible VM... "Just talked with s12 and you're absolutely right. I think it's imperative we get a therapist for him. I also know that the feelings he's having are very normal for a child his age going through a separation. I am alarmed by some of the things he said but I am extremely happy he was able to express his feelings although they were very hurtful to hear."

She said all this in an even voice. She did choke now and then on some of the words.

I think she put his welfare above her deeply hurt feelings. Frankly, I'm impressed with her behavior.

She wasn't interested in defending herself or being blame free nearly as much as she was with his being able to express himself. Good.


She went on to ask if I had set an IC appointment for him. That the appointment that she set with my IC was for herself.

IS this the IC you have whom you want for her? What is the goal here, now?


And she suggested we change the schedule again so he would sleep here with me in the condo most nights to give him "stability."

She said this To give him what HE asked for and says he needs. It's not about you.


She would then drive him to and from school and help him with homework after school (I guess at the coffee shop or school library).

She also mentioned she would get her apartment sooner, on February 1, to help S12. She said her idea to stay at her aunt's house longer "does not quite seem to be a good one for him."

She told me she expected to get an apartment near his school by January 15. Instead, she really planed to get that apartment later in February. Her plan was to keep S12 an hour away from his school on her nights for at least 4 weeks. That's 18 nights. Even when she knew he didn't like staying there and without telling me her apartment would take so long.

And again... on the first day of her new schedule... she has to take it all back and ask me for help.

And, with the therapist... I told her S12 was having a hard time. "Yes of course he's sad but we have a good time together." Now, she's alarmed and hurt about what he said but "extremely happy" he felt he could say it.

What he said is... he hates her and doesn't trust her and she's a liar and she's ruining his life.

is that really all that you heard? You may feel "vindicated" but imo, you did not help your son or your over all cause.

I trade some texts with her. She says her IC appointment is to talk about S12. I make an IC appointment for S12 the day after. She texts she wants to talk. She texts S12... tell dad I'm calling to talk. He tells me. Phone rings. I take advice... deep breath, relax, then I answer.

She apologizes for calling. She sounds sad. She asks if I'm going to the basketball game tomorrow. I say yes. She says can I please help her with it. The aunt lives too far away. S12 wants to stay at the condo. She gives me all these options.

I say... very cordially with no trace of anger in my voice... I will pick S12 up from school... bring him to the condo... take him to the game later... and bring him to the condo to spend the night with me. You don't have to come.

She says she wants to be there.

Then she says... "But you have plans. What about your plans?"

"Don't worry about it. Is there anything else."

"Yes I want to..." She sounds frustrated and stops.

After a pause I say... "If there's anything else let me know. I've got to get back to work. Talk to you later." I hang up. Very cordial.

Later she texts me... "I just talked to the teacher." Then nothing else. That was an hour ago.

When I spoke with my IC... she was surprised my W called her and made an appointment. Asked if I was OK seeing her. Promised confidentiality. I said I wouldn't expect anything else.

...I don't get why you suggested this^^ at all. Though Your wife said it's about s12 - do you disagree? What was your goal in asking her to see the IC?

If it was to help son, then again, makes sense. But I'm not clear on how you feel about it, and what your plans were for it. You send out mixed signals on this.

I handled W very cordially. I was sad more than angry. I heard her tell s12... "I know you're angry I feel me and dad should be separated right now." At least she wasn't giving him false hope like she did before.

IS there something "Wrong" with her answer here^^? It is the truth in her mind. She was not happy and wants to be separated from you. She does not think OM is the cause but rather, the symptom. (FWIW, I agree)

Did you HOPE she'd say "Sorry I'm such a lying monster wife/mom whore"...??? Remember, you are supposed to act in accordance with your goals,

NOT how you feel.


She certainly does not feel she can cry to me anymore. I made sure of that.


I would not gloat about this^^. Call your DB coach asap. Get back on track.


I would like to reach out to her now... but I don't know how and I know I shouldn't. Just send us all to IC
and we'll be fine.

uh, yeah sure. Because an hour of talking to someone else will make your son all better.

So yes I'll be GALing at the game tomorrow and every game. I'll be cordial and empathetic to my W who has just heard her son hates her.

To me you sound like someone bleating that he's been declared "Right"

but you are really missing out on the big picture here.

Your anger, your bff, is taking over your approach and that's not going to help you or your son.

What kind of legacy are you passing to him?

NOTE: I'm not asking about his mother's legacy to him or lessons he's learning from her. You have no control over those.

I'm asking YOU about what legacy and lessons You are passing onto him.


Oh, now she just called him again. He tells me she's downstairs delivering his bag of clothes. Last time they were dirty and I had to wash them. Let's see if she does that again.

Stop setting her up for failure in one of your endless tests, AND Lose the scorecard, asap please.

I can't believe you are content to wait til he sees YOUR IC to get him help.

[Wonka]

HP,

I'm very relieved to hear S11 speak his mind with his Mom....I was a bit concerned about him feeling like he can't talk to his Mom about how he felt about this situation. Stay out of their R. It's for the two of them to figure out among themselves.

I am not a dramatic person. My W is clearly a dramatic person. Even so, we were a very very boring family before all this. W clearly didn't like that.

Now we're in drama hell...

Oh really?? Is that right, HP? So you're 'innocent' of your own contribution to the dramatic dynamic?? Interesting.

She left an incredible VM... "Just talked with s12 and you're absolutely right. I think it's imperative we get a therapist for him. I also know that the feelings he's having are very normal for a child his age going through a separation. I am alarmed by some of the things he said but I am extremely happy he was able to express his feelings although they were very hurtful to hear."

She said all this in an even voice. She did choke now and then on some of the words.

Leave it be....don't try to reassure or try to make W feel better for it is important that she process her own thoughts and feelings about their convo.

And she suggested we change the schedule again so he would sleep here with me in the condo most nights to give him "stability." She would then drive him to and from school and help him with homework after school (I guess at the coffee shop or school library).

I have to really commend W for really recognizing S11's feelings and making adjustments as appropriate. It's clear that she's trying to stay involved in S11's schoolwork and activities.

I trade some texts with her. She says her IC appointment is to talk about S12. I make an IC appointment for S12 the day after. She texts she wants to talk. She texts S12... tell dad I'm calling to talk. He tells me. Phone rings. I take advice... deep breath, relax, then I answer.

The bolded section is a very, very bad dynamic. Break it by answering W's texts and call her back as its about S11.

I say... very cordially with no trace of anger in my voice... I will pick S12 up from school... bring him to the condo... take him to the game later... and bring him to the condo to spend the night with me. You don't have to come.

This is the THIRD time that you've brought up that you don't want W there. Why is that Mom shouldn't be at her son's game?? Man up and grow a pair.

She says she wants to be there.

Then she says... "But you have plans. What about your plans?"

"Don't worry about it. Is there anything else."

"Yes I want to..." She sounds frustrated and stops.

After a pause I say... "If there's anything else let me know. I've got to get back to work. Talk to you later." I hang up. Very cordial.

Arrrrgh!! You just had to pipe up when staying silent would have elicited W to finish her sentence or train of thought. That would have been a golden opportunity to validate. Ahh well....it's a lost opportunity. Poof. Gone.

Oh, now she just called him again. He tells me she's downstairs delivering his bag of clothes. Last time they were dirty and I had to wash them. Let's see if she does that again.

How does that matter? Unless you're playing that scorecard.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Our youngest has been acting out and showing fury at her dad for his absence during our separation from years ago.

IT's not easy at all. She's now 17. Lots of pain, lots or hormones and unresolved issues I'm only now really facing fully. I take her pain very very seriously.

Last Feb 28th, a 15 y/o boy she knew, left a suicide note for his friends and brother. The note mentioned several small to moderate things not going well in his life...

Then he jumped on the train tracks, stood up and faced the oncoming train, as his life ended...the funeral was even more brutal than you might imagine. I thought the parents would throw themselves into the grave...

That boy barely gave a warning. In fact, NO ONE saw it coming.

You need to make Your Son's PAIN your focus, not your pain.

The phrase oft used by WAS is "kids are resilient and I, an adult, need to go discover myself" But in reality'

it is the opposite. That^^ is backwards.

We are resilient and KIDS Need to discover themselves.

So HP, Be a lot more resilient, go to his freaking games without worrying how YOU will feel (in case your WAW is there!!!) This really truly is not about you or your wife or the choices you hate that she is making. Right now, it's about showing up for your son...

and getting your son some more help.

[Wonka]

^^^^^^^^^^^ x100

Seriously. Get a grip on your anger....it is at the expense of all your Rs with your son and W. It isn't serving anyone at all.

Over the past week, your anger has grown bigger and bigger. You need to find a way manage it for everyone's sake. Most importantly for S11. Time to start acting like an adult, not a petulant little boy.

[MCS]

I agree with 25, this is some serious stuff. Love him as his Dad, he's struggling. Time to put HP, W, M aside and focus on your son. Put The DB aside for a few hours or days. I suggest W and HP get together, come up with a gameplan and talk to son, together. think about it, this is what's important to both of you. W has obviously showed it, now it's time for you to show it. You've been his rock, no doubt, but sometimes we need to put ourselves aside for those that need us. Remember talk is cheap, actions are where it's important

Seriously, hang up DB for a few days and be his parents, together. Tell him he's loved and no matter what that won't change.

[edz]

Hi HP

Not sure if you've read my sitch. My r with s is one of the key reasons w quoted walking away. I've said this on several posts so guys forgive me reiterating. W and I had pursuer / pursued issues I'm or I was codependant before bd. W pushed me I withdrew into myself and redirected that frustration distancing s. And here I am.

For 4 weeks I didn't see s and losing then both nearly killed me. Now s comes and stays at least once a week. After years of working instead of attending sports events because I was working etc I finally got it. He didn't know where he stood with me if I really cared not because of what I did but because of inaction.

All these ^^^^ guys got your back on this, based on my experience with my s (our sitches are otherwise obviously different) please make time and pause the rest.

Not saying you're right or wrong just that its not always apparent to them. I've always loved my s but he was unsure, may still be somewhere in there, but I'll make sure my actions show my interest to ensure its apparent. He needed to know none of this was his fault and for me to talk and reassure him. W still doesn't really engage with me regarding r, may not do again but I won't lose s as well.

S and I have our own new traditions and were building fun things we do together but its taking time. Its all stressful and painful and yes it brings frustration. I let that frustration damage my relationship with s and I hope I'm now fixing that, if you want to chat on this just shout.

[HPoirot]

Thank you Wonka, 25, and everyone for the hard words. Today I thought I was staying out of the way of S12 saying what he's been wanting to say to W. I see what your saying about handling it better and then my reaction. My son is my priority but yes in my anger and focus on my hurt I did make serious mistakes today. I did leave a message for the IC specifically saying what my son said. I will follow-up in the morning.

I did write what happened to calm myself and examine what I did. I did see I was too happy to see S12 say what he wanted to say to W.

I was OK with her new proposed more balanced schedule. I didn't think she would propose it if S12 wasn't having a better time there.

About the IC... I was recommending the IC for S12 to see, not for W to see. It surprised me that W made an appointment to see her. I didn't recognize it was a mistake to tell W I was seeing an IC.

About S12's telling me his problem with the schedule and his basketball game... I did take your advice and decide to go to his game and told him so. Please know that I do listen very closely to you 25 and Wonka. I could not have made it this far without you. I have moments of doubt like my post saying I wouldn't go. I've never missed one of his games and I won't start now.

And on the her schedules yes I feel frustrated and at the same time vindicated when they fail. I know that is wrong. I do hate that S12 is subjected to her planning. At the same time... he wants to be with his mom. I quoted "stability" yes in anger regarding how she's going about all this. I did not like the businesslike way she described what was happening to our son in her VM.

And yes I was too happy S12 showed his mom his anger and I did leak snark and satisfaction all over that last post b/c I was focused on my W getting taught a hard painful lesson instead of where it should always be... on my son crying for help.

...

After all this, W called S12 downstairs to get his bags. She walked him back all the way to the condo door and then left.

When he came in, he was wearing a new pair of expensive basketball sneakers his mom bought him.

He said they talked he felt better about his mom.

We sat and ate dinner together at the table.

Then I called W. Asked her what she thought about S12. She talked for a long time. I did not say anything against anything she said and there was plenty I didn't like. I just let her talk. Short validations to show I was listening. She said she knows she's the bad parent and didn't try to convince S12 otherwise. That he's right to feel everything he feels. That she thinks therapy will help him.

She talked a lot about us being more civil. Her example was when she came to the condo door. S12 wanted her to come inside and have dinner. She told him she couldn't b/c she had to go back to the school for a function instead of "your dad F*cking hates me right now." She told him one day she and me would be friends again. I didn't say anything to that.

Earlier, S12 told me she said we would all be together again as a family. That's how he heard it.

She also said... S12 told her he didn't like how she was acting overly happy... her supermom thing. He said she should be acting how things really are. She thought she was doing him a favor. Instead, he said that's why he preferred being around me. I was listening to him and how he felt and wasn't acting like nothing is wrong. She said she would do better to listen to him instead of trying to fix him.

I didn't say hardly anything while she talked the whole time. Some very long pauses. Then she asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk about or say. After a long pause I said no, I'm going to get off the phone. She said how much she appreciated talking with me and she hopes we can do it again. She wants to talk and it meant a lot to her that we got to talk. She thanked me for talking to her. I hung up.

S12 just got out of the shower. I'm going to hang with him and put him to bed.

I'm so sorry we're all going through this. I'm angry that my W didn't even think of saying lets get together and work something out. That I couldn't ask her to come home with us and let's all heal together. That our solutions to this horrible problem could be so different. Like so many other people here... why make this so hard. Is what you're trying to do making you happy now?

One thing she said is... she knows what S12 is going through from the divorces her mom went through. She knows how painful this is. But not enough to come heal your family? She called me a great father. Not enough. Not enough to come here right now and be with her son?

I don't understand.