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UpperCu Offline OP
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I had counseling last night. The counselor helped me talk through my actions and figure out what I think is right, which is to back down on the more aggressive separation terms.

Wife got home at 5 AM last night/this morning, looks like she slept at a friends house. We talked more this morning and she broke down crying saying "I'm sure your attorney told you to threaten me with that and you would get whatever you want and he's right you can have whatever you want I'll sign anything. If you sue OM it will destroy my career, I don't care about him I care about myself. My career is all I have left now."

I apologized for making her feel threatened. And I told her I would like to put what we discussed and anymore separation talk on hold until after Thanksgiving.

She told me she wants me to be consistent and I told her I want her to be honest.

Convo ended with her in tears saying she is all alone, doesn't have support from anyone who knows about the affair to fall back on. I consoled her and said I know you're hurting and I'm hurting too. She said "it's all my fault, I'm sorry I'm hurting you. And you can believe what you want but I am not continuing the A with OM, I'm not in love with him, he isn't a part of my life. I'm not leaving you to be with him."


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
No kids
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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UC,

It sounds like you have a good, solid IC to work with.

I also think it's the right thing to put the separation papers on the back burner for the time being to allow the pair of you to cool off. Hot heads do not go any where at all.

I hope you told her after the part about not continuing the affair that you're willing to work on the M as long as the OM is completely out of the picture. Not living in an open M is your boundary.

I do hope you will have the opportunity to say this to W at some point when you two are more calmer and be civil with each other.


Last edited by Wonka; 11/21/14 06:48 PM.
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UpperCu Offline OP
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Had a chance to talk to W tonight in a calmer setting.

She said she feels like yesterday was a big deal for her and she is starting to shed parts of herself. Not sure to what extent she meant that, but she wasn't wearing her wedding ring today. That's a first.

I told her I was open to working on our M and discussing what got us here as long as OM isn't in the picture. She said "you don't get it, he is not in the picture and this is about me wanting to be alone, not about being with someone else. You still think this is about OM. I don't want there to be a WE or an US. Just a ME."

Ouch. That stung.

I responded "I am just saying the only context where I am open to working on our M is if he is completely out of the picture. I know your feelings about being alone are very real. I hear you loud and clear. I also realize that we are married right NOW. That means we can always get S or D, but right now we have the opportunity to learn from all the pain and difficulty we are going through."

She mentioned that she doesn't think we got where we are at all of a sudden, rather it was many small things. She doesn't think others can understand that and probably won't.

I addressed that statement and her feelings of wanting to be independent and free saying "I see how in our R you fought for our M early on. You made sure we never went to bed angry, that we resolved conflict quickly. You were also there for me when I started a new job a couple years ago. You had a lot going on in your life too, more than me, but you didn't complain. You stepped up and pushed me through it, all the while dealing with me complaining. Our life together became about me. We moved out of state for you to pursue your career, but this ended up being about me and my career. I was fortunate to be successful but that brought the spotlight on me and placed you in the shadow. I get that you feel like you're living in the shadow of my accomplishments, the house we have, the cars, everything is what I "provided" for you. No one realizes the great accomplishments you've made in your career, the hard work you put in. You've been unlucky compared to your close friend, but you know what, I think you will have just as many prospects as her in a few months. You have a lot going for you. You're a catch."

Silence. She said "I don't know how to communicate with you right now."

I didn't pry or plead for a response. I really didn't need one, I was just getting my feelings out there. We parted ways and went to our separate rooms for the night.


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
No kids
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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UC,

Boy! What a tough talk with your W. Phew. That cannot be easy at all. I was glad to see that you two were able to have this talk fairly calmly.

Here are some pointers to keep in mind for the next time you have those types of discussions with W. I can see from my perch that you really didn't validate W and she just completely shut down as shown by her comment: "I don't know how to communicate with you right now."

You really didn't listen to W or validate HER thoughts. You went into a lecture mode. Do you now see this at all?

Originally Posted By: UpperCu
I told her I was open to working on our M and discussing what got us here as long as OM isn't in the picture. She said "you don't get it, he is not in the picture and this is about me wanting to be alone, not about being with someone else. You still think this is about OM. I don't want there to be a WE or an US. Just a ME."


I am seeing a mixture of both entitlement and feelings of hopelessness. The entitlement part is where I think she wants to separate so she can feel that she's "single" and pursue OM for in her mind, she's no longer married. On the other hand, I can see that she's feeling overwhelmed and feeling utterly hopelessness over the years. My sense is that, like many WAWs, they loose their sense of identity in the M. Right or wrong, it is how she feels at the moment.

Originally Posted By: UpperCu
I responded "I am just saying the only context where I am open to working on our M is if he is completely out of the picture. I know your feelings about being alone are very real. I hear you loud and clear. I also realize that we are married right NOW. That means we can always get S or D, but right now we have the opportunity to learn from all the pain and difficulty we are going through."


Why would you bring up S or D if that's not want you want?? I would never mention it ever again. You may feel that there's an opportunity to learn, but W is checked out and ins't interested at all. She's deep in pain and confused so her mind and heart space isn't open to "learning" so she wants out.

Originally Posted By: UpperCu
She mentioned that she doesn't think we got where we are at all of a sudden, rather it was many small things. She doesn't think others can understand that and probably won't.


Damn! This would have BEEN A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY for you to validate W and ask her open-ended questions. For example, "wow...I didn't realize this is how you saw things. What you have to say is important to me. Would you be willing to let me know what you meant by 'many small things'?" Then STFU and listen to her. Don't get defensive or argue with her version of small things.

Originally Posted By: UpperCu
I addressed that statement and her feelings of wanting to be independent and free saying "I see how in our R you fought for our M early on. You made sure we never went to bed angry, that we resolved conflict quickly. You were also there for me when I started a new job a couple years ago. You had a lot going on in your life too, more than me, but you didn't complain. You stepped up and pushed me through it, all the while dealing with me complaining. Our life together became about me. We moved out of state for you to pursue your career, but this ended up being about me and my career. I was fortunate to be successful but that brought the spotlight on me and placed you in the shadow. I get that you feel like you're living in the shadow of my accomplishments, the house we have, the cars, everything is what I "provided" for you. No one realizes the great accomplishments you've made in your career, the hard work you put in. You've been unlucky compared to your close friend, but you know what, I think you will have just as many prospects as her in a few months. You have a lot going for you. You're a catch."


^^ That comes across as lecturing W. There's no real give or take. Just blah, blah, blah. Did you notice that W shut down right after this. It was all about what YOU thought or saw things. You just didn't hear W at all.

I think it would benefit you to get a refresher on the validation cheat sheet.

Validation: Cheat Sheet

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UpperCu Offline OP
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Thanks for sending the validation cheat sheet and for all of the pointers Wonka. I see how I have made her feel like her feelings are not valid. I'm realizing this was a major issue in our R, I often steam rolled her attempts at expressing her feelings to me. You would have made an excellent pre-Marital counselor laugh

W approached me today to talk about moving out. Her married friend is offering to let her stay with them.

I wish I could remember all of what she said, but I don't at the moment. But, she poured out a lot feelings and I used a lot of the suggested validating responses. The more I validated, the more she opened up.

To be honest, this way of talking felt REALLY awkward and unnatural. I know this will get easier; but I am seeing that for this to "work" I have to change how I think. I have to actually CARE about her feelings in order to not sound like a robot. I have always cared about her, but I don't think I've ever really given a damn about her feelings... Sorry W frown

W is still very concerned I might snap and decide to file a lawsuit against OM. I've told her I have no desire to drag her, him, and myself through an extensive legal process. She is not convinced, and I told her that I can understand why she feels like that, but I reiterated that I didn't want any of this and I am not going to be the one to drag her down, I know she is already in a tough place since all of her family and friends are giving her tough love right now.

I asked quite a few open ended questions and she gave me a lot of information, including how she wants to sleep around once we're separated, although she says she hasn't done that yet. At another point she talked about how upset she was at her brother because he has pretended to support her, but when she told him I might sue OM, he said "good, you deserve that, you're a slut."

She seemed to prefer the way her sole supportive friend described the sitch - not as an affair, but instead as "cheating multiple times." W seems to have convinced the friend she is over OM. Now THAT is some BullSh!t, IMHO.

So, the convo ended on a positive, if not weird and distasteful note for me. Before we parted ways, W asked me "how far away is XXXXX City from us?" I told her the answer, and immediately went to verify why she was asking this... Turns out one of her very attractive male childhood friends is visiting a nearby city. She has confided in him about the sitch.

I could have done without this next part, but too late now... As she was getting dressed up and putting on makeup, I confronted her about why she was visiting this friend. She blew up and said "How did you even know that??" and "I'm not visiting him until next week, and if I wanted to hook up with him, I would have done that anytime in the last 15 years!!! I am not interested in him that way, he is just a friend! I really don't see why you even care anymore. I want out of our M and you are so jealous!"

I can see now why MWD says no spying... I'd say it probably made matters worse. She was PISSED and declared that she was moving out and that we are OVER.

I wound up fessing to W that I had been monitoring her computer use. She asked for me to delete the program I installed from the computer. Kind of funny, as she stood behind me, she said "Oh wow I had seen something pop up from that program and didn't think anything of it." WTF? She is so naive...

Although this blew up, honestly, I don't think it ended being that bad. Sure, she says she is definitely moving out, but she has been saying that for a couple months. We wound up talking quite a bit more and W accused me of being obsessed with her, and I think I pretty clearly explained that I was not obsessed with her, but that I simply had ZERO trust for her and was acting to protect myself and fact-find in response to the months of lying. She seemed to actually respect why I was doing what I was doing and later apologized for calling me a stalker. I apologized for the spying and said "I understand if you don't see why I did what I felt I had to do, but I am hurting through this and I've been lied to so many times I don't know what to believe." She really seemed to get where I was coming from.

I think she is definitely going to move out and I don't blame her. And at this point, I'm ready for something to CHANGE. My personal boundaries have been crossed and she is consciously crossing them and TELLING me she intends to continue to cross them. She feels that she wants out, and I'm certainly not blocking the door.

I don't think my DBing journey is over, but its going to have to happen with her outside of our home, since she seems set on living out her dreams of promiscuity and proving her independence to the world. I am excited to see her BGPs kick in when she is living on her own. I know that her first paycheck is going to disappear into paying off her credit card bill.

I'm excited about some 180s and GAL's I have ahead: I'm applying to graduate school, I have a couple of ski trips planned with friends this winter, I am spending the holidays with friends, I just joined a basketball team through my church, have another IC session on the horizon, I have a big role in the Christmas service at my church, and I just bought a Bob Dylan best hits CD for $2 at Best Buy. Life is good!


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
No kids
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
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Wow, what an intense weekend you guys have had. Sounds like you made some real progress, UC in being able to "hear" your wife.

My wife moved out at the very beginning so, no your DB journey is most certainly not over if she moves out.

May I caution you on one comment you made. "Since she seems set on living out her dreams of promiscuity and proving her independence" I dont think she has dreams of promiscuity at all nor is it *proving* independence. I think it's just the very act of *being* independent that she's craving. Work on getting that thought out of your head. It will not serve you well later and will come out as a snark towards her.
She sounds a bit like my wife and I am such a dominant personality she just wants to be free. I am working as hard and as fast as I can to use my personality in a more positive manner for those that have to live around me.

Although she may be moving out, I see the lessons learned about communicating with her better to be a good thing.

Good job.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
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UpperCu Offline OP
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Thanks for the wise words Jefe. I can imagine learning that lesson was not easy.


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
No kids
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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UC,

Yeah...I agree with Jefe that it was an intense convo. I could feel my shoulders tense up as I read your latest post. Phew!

I was happy to read that you used some validating techniques. Yeah, it can be awkward at first. With more practice, it'll get easier. Use it on your own family, co-workers, etc. It is not just for WAS.

Originally Posted By: UpperCu
I asked quite a few open ended questions and she gave me a lot of information, including how she wants to sleep around once we're separated, although she says she hasn't done that yet. At another point she talked about how upset she was at her brother because he has pretended to support her, but when she told him I might sue OM, he said "good, you deserve that, you're a slut."


Let her family throw out truth darts to W. Yeah, she isn't liking it one bit at all! Too bad. As for her friend, W likes her because this friend is "supporting" her narrative and W will continue to surround herself with people who support her narrative.

That's why MWD says in her book that people outside of DB don't get it and constantly blare the siren of "D is the best option. Whatever makes you happy..." Rrriiiight.

I think you really hurt yourself with this:

Originally Posted By: UpperCu
I wound up fessing to W that I had been monitoring her computer use. She asked for me to delete the program I installed from the computer. Kind of funny, as she stood behind me, she said "Oh wow I had seen something pop up from that program and didn't think anything of it." WTF? She is so naive...


That was something you NEED to keep in your back pocket. Now that she knows, she will do an even better job trying to cover her tracks. You've lost a very valuable tool. Don't do this ever again. I wonder what you hoped to achieve by showing your cards to W?

Let W move out. And be sure to install some firm boundaries:

-no talking about OM or sleeping around to your face
-cannot move back home until there's zero OM

I would suggest that you seek legal advice on the next steps to protect your financial and marital assets. I've seen far too many times the WAS go on a spending spree by raiding credit cards, the bank account, and whatnot.

It's important to protect yourself.

Meanwhile, you can still use validating techniques with W as appropriate. Show her a new way and it'll be a good contrast to the multiple OMs.

I really like your GAL activities, UC!

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Thanks Wonka. W asked me straight up what I had on the computer and I showed one of my cards to show her I was being open and honest with her. She already assumed I was "spying" so it was really no surprise to her. I have other reliable ways to gather Intel, so no worries there.

I've taken steps to protect myself: new bank account, moved money out of joint accounts, closed credit card with W on it. She took out a $10k student loan a few weeks after DDay and I talked her into moving the funds to her sole account so I didn't have any liability for the new debt. She already ran up one credit card, but I have spent joint money too where it would be beneficial to me. I'm getting the house, so you know, the house is getting A LOT of past due maintenance and updating right now. :-)

Tonight was surprising. W came home and told me that one of her career mentors told her that her name came up at an expo. He said that potential employers think she is "too pretty for her own good" and he advised that she needs to tone down her behavior. He said that word is getting around that her M is on the rocks and that is another red flag for employers. The cracks are beginning to show. W seemed concerned that OM might be talking...

W said "after hearing all that, I am going to reconsider my approach for the next couple of months." She wouldn't elaborate on what this means but did say she will not be staying out as late, will be volunteering to be the DD more, and will dress more modestly at work functions.

Her career aspirations have her by the reigns! Too bad it seems she only is motivated to change where it is beneficial to her and her career.

I'm reading between the lines here, but the vibe I got was that W is rethinking S and D; or at least rethinking the timing of it all. It's like it just dawned on her that people might not want to hire a pretty party girl. In her words she is "an HR nightmare." Don't eff where you work!

On another note, I think my W is either crying often or she is on something that makes her eyes really watery. I am a bit inexperienced when it comes to drugs of any kind, but I know her friends smoke pot. I've found her googling Adderall several times too. She has lighters in her purse, but no cigarettes and never smells like smoke. Tonight I walked into the kitchen and she was scarfing down the leftovers I had just put in the fridge. I was like...uhh hey W. Are you okay? (She hasn't touched any food I've made or bought for the past week I assume to show me how independent she is). Maybe she is crying because she is sad and is eating because she is hungry. I dunno. I don't want to ignore the warning signs though. She has lost a bit of weight, she takes two showers a day where she used to take 3-4 showers per week, and she has stopped working out. Any advice from the street wise?


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
No kids
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
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"Tonight was surprising. W came home and told me that one of her career mentors told her that her name came up at an expo. He said that potential employers think she is "too pretty for her own good" and he advised that she needs to tone down her behavior. He said that word is getting around that her M is on the rocks and that is another red flag for employers. The cracks are beginning to show. W seemed concerned that OM might be talking..."

Wow.

UC, I have zero advice for the potential drug use question. All of the symptoms you mentioned also go hand in hand with depression.

You keep doing your thing and let her figure out her's.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
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