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I don't know how some guys do as well as they do. Even though I am a woman, my dad was a great role model. He taught me, by his example, how a man should treat his W and lead a family. Father's teach both their sons and daughters in these matters.

I think you are being a loving father, Jim. And I believe you have what it takes to get on track as a H and leader in the home. It makes perfect sense that you would hold back and become passive in your desire to not be like your father or brother. That's a hard thing to watch growing up, and not allow it to affect your own behavior. Most of us tend to have some our parents bad side's, even if we swear we'll never be like they were. So, my hat is off to you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: jim0987
It does make sense. I don't have a good male role model for dealing with conflict. My dads style is to belittke them abd utterly destroy the other persons confidence. my older brothers is violence.

No other men in my family really.

I've friends who have a good approach to life but no idea how they deal with tense situations. So in short my only male role models are fictional characters.

FWIW, my favorite older brother (and I have 5), has Captain Kirk as his role model. I say, whatever works. And so far, it has worked for him. He's truly a noble man.



I'm trying to learn the better behaviours through reading and such. And ive worked out a bit more of a plan to improve myself.

I'm doing much better at not showing frustration and resentment but like you say one moment undoes days of good work.


Sad but true


And overall I feel less resentful but its still there just different now. Little things that bothered me before now don't and it seems weird that I got so worked up by them.

Remember this^^ discovery.



In disagreements so far the improvement has been that I walk away rather than lash back. Next step is I have to stand my ground confidently but unthreateningly

It would be much, much easier if I wasn't sad and my W was helping with this is a loving a supportive way.

Finding the balance between positive but not weak is what I'm finding hard. I've always taken my strength from either being negative, being empowered by someone else or by being right. Not the way to be happy

Its very new and unsettling to me.

And I'll be honest I still have a sizeable chunk of fear and shame going on.




Fear is natural and has to be balanced with faith, (or even conquered by it.)

Shame? Well, shame just sukks.

However, Remorse for our errors & for harming others, is understandable. It's arguably a great thing IF IT Serves to motivate us to change AND if it does not spiral downward into shame.

Remember that if you are making the changes needed, then remind yourself also that "a problem being handled, is not a problem anymore" b/c you are fixing it.

Think about that. Do you complain or focus on a flat tire, WHILE you are changing that tire? No, b/c you are handling it.

Shame itself is NOT healthy. It's a form of wallowing and critical berating. Berating isn't good to do to anyone, including ourselves.
Hey, I'd bet that shameful voice is a voice from your past, e.g., your childhood, don't you think? You can silence that voice, if/when you know how. I have a suggestion to make if you are truly ready to change your life.

Please check into a personal workshop that is in total alignment with DB principles, called "Essential Experience" ("EE" for short). It's now only in Philadelphia. Other DBers have attended, as have I and my h. It was literally life changing for both of us and for every DBer who attended.

(including PowerOfNow, AutumnLeaves, LuckyLuke, StubbornDyke and some others who's names escape me atm).

I've been to a few different kinds of these self discovery workshops. Most all of them have some use, though some are hilariously superficial.

However, by far, EE was the most profound. And it was done in such a supportive environment, there's just no way it cannot help you with something. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it exponentially. One thing that makes EE different is that it's "experiential", a word I had not come across before.

That meant it was not a lecture or Q & A type of experience, but had exercises designed for you to discover or confront or accept something about yourself that maybe you did not know before. For ME, that meant I could not edit or rehearse my answers, and that was a huge change & big challenge. A VERY productive experience for me.

Check it out. It's personal/individual, not for marriages or couples per se. In most cases a lot of us bring our own baggage to our marriages but cannot resolve those in joint marriage counseling.

My h also said he found therapy, even with a good T, "fragmented" b/c when you do gain an insight or make a breakthrough, within a few minutes you have to leave and pick up your kids or go back to work and NOT ponder the breakthrough til the following WEEK. So you return and have to begin again to get back to where you are the week before and so, in my view, a long weekend workshop is going to save time in counseling, not add to it.

As for being focused on individuals and not couples, every relationship in your life will change, if you change and if you attend EE -then change is certain. I mean you'd have to try pretty hard not to get something valuable out of it. I don't know anyone who has done that and I've now been involved in about 9 of these, and seeing hundreds of people do it.

As you may know, the real value of these things, just like the value of DBing, lies in the changes others see in your life.


And at least In my case , my h saw dramatic changes in me, even as soon as I got off the plane. He said later that he could tell from my demeanor then, and my newly found inner/outer calm, and how I viewed myself as a then pregnant woman (a lot more sensual and attractive than before) ---that HE decided to go to EE himself... And so off he went, alone.

He called and said it was the "Best gift anyone had ever given" him. Then we went together to help other new participants, on "team". It was among the most bonding experiences of my life and certainly one of the closest moments of our m. That is when he said "I'm so glad to be married to my soulmate".

So Yes, I highly recommend it.

Also, are you a believer? Oh I'm not going to preach. It's just that if you are, this reminder helped ME deal with the fears I had when this all happened in my life.

So, When you operate from fear, you are NOT operating in faith.

Letting my faith comfort & guide me, was a lifesaver and a Godsend (literally, I suppose).

You can do this. Seriously.

Look where you were and then look where you are now.

Can you celebrate the difference - that you have created?




M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Thanks Sandi, 25.

Sandi your post really choked me up and im not really sure why it got to me so much.

25, I'm looking at the Feb EE, and trying to get the money together. I really do want to change who I am. I want to be more assertive I want to stop being so insecure. I have value and worth, I know that, but I'm crippled by self doubt.

My self doubt is why my wife didn't think I was there for her and its when I was wrestling with it openly that I made her connect with and feel her shame. And its this self doubt that gives me harsh and mean defences.

I hate the phrase but I need to be more alpha male in my being I'm just so far from that it seems hard (and yes its a massive contradiction from work where I'm in charge and the guy everyone goes to in a crisis) I'm way to dependent on external validation and empowerment.

Kirk (and others) are great role models. I suppose I can see it just don't know how to be it.

Leads me back to querying current interaction with my wife. Say nothing and be happy is passive (weak) acceptance of her A and the D, raise it and I'm forcing shame on her and it pushes her away. The only other option I can think of is to openly address the shame and guilt but that's pursuit and will look weak.

All if this is probably about control but I don't think she will see any changes because what need to change was my compassionate interaction with her. I needed to step forward and try rather than back and hide.

That and get my work head back on straight.


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
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Actually another option would to be to really take charge of the divorce proceedings. I don't want it but I also don't want to be married to someone who has an A and thinks of me so badly.

There's nothing passive or manipulative its just taking charge if my destiny. It will wind her up and speed things up but its not like she can reject me anymore than she already has.

The fear that stops me is that it feels like I'm not keeping the way back open.


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Quote:
Actually another option would to be to really take charge of the divorce proceedings. I don't want it but I also don't want to be married to someone who has an A and thinks of me so badly.


I think a few have done that in the past, and then regretted it. You do want to take charge of your own life. You do want to be a strong leader and have more alpha (especially at home). You are still getting information for yourself in ways to improve. However, I don't think you want a D, and beating her to file first does not show the kind of "take charge" you need right now. Unless you know without any doubt that you are through with her and the M, I wouldn't do it yet.

Have you checked with a lawyer to see about your rights, etc.?

Didn't you say she was moving out as soon as she found a place of her own?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Yes she is moving out. She is purchasing a new house and its going to financially cripple us both (I'm buying her share of the equity in our current house - no more than she put in, and my L says the deal is weighted in my favour).

She has already filed for D citing unreasonable behaviour by me (did that 2weeks after BD). I've not had the papers yet though to see the specifics.

I was thinking more pushing through the financials and sewing up the childcare agreement although actually thinking about it I've already done this - just needs a signature. Back to my classic sort the practical stuff rather than deal with the emotion.

We are leading seperate lives in the same house. The difference is I miss her and she just wants away. I make her sick apparently. She is pining for OM.

I could be more 'this is my space' about things but that's easily seen as petty and controlling. Same deal for moving the house around or starting to sort stuff for moving.

She avoids talking to me or has little huffs. Makes a big deal out of leaving a room at times. I take a fairly nonchalant attitude to it (in front of her)

I'm stuggling to think what there is to take charge of, other than my own emotions. Which comes back to the self doubt.

You could say that I'm being very alpha in a room on my own.




Last edited by jim0987; 11/11/14 03:27 PM.

Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
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So new discovery.... My job really upsets my wife. I spend a lot of time preparing for death, destruction and disaster. Turns out that this puts my W's anxiety through the roof so anytime I've discussed work its made her really anxious and tense.

Brene Brown describes it as foreboding joy.

In other news I once again told her not to cut accross me when I'm talking to the kids. She responded with her normal smug patronising rudeness. I told her not to be patronising and rude.

In the past I would have made a vicious sarcastic comment

A few minutes later when the kids weren't causing chaos I said this:

M: when you talk over me like that it feels like you are undermining my authority.
W: well you do it all the time
M: its something I trying to make sure I don't do.

Quite friendly chat after that. Though I stayed in the chat too long and was dismissed


Last edited by jim0987; 11/11/14 07:15 PM.

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I read this on another thread but am posting it here so I can find it again. There may never be a time I can use it directly but I think the attitude and mindset feels more like where I want to be
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Gotcha -- thanks for the clarification.

I kept this old post of a guy named Robx who used to post here often . . . maybe it can help you. He was all about the whole "let them go" technique, and not fighting it. He called it a "merry-go-'round" instead of a roller-coaster, but much of this applies:


RobX’s approach:



Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes.

You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent.

You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent.

You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust.

For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point?

Don't ask for for full disclosure.

Do the opposite.

Tell her this:

"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.

I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.

From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.

If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.

If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.

I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."


No being mean, spiteful, vindictive, you let her go.
No more discussions, arguments, no more talks about lies, no more sneaking around behind your back, she can do what she wants but you are letting her go to do what she wants to do but at the same time, you are now allowing yourself to be free of this crappy limbo place you've been living in for so long.

Bro, if she wants to be with you, she'll be with you, no amount of a$$ kissing, sneaking, snooping, being mean, angry, standing tall, etc. is going to change that.

You be the best gosh darn example of a MAN for you and for you only. If she wants this great MAN that you are in her life, she'll pursue you and do what it takes to be a part of that.

You need to respect yourself first, that's the first step and letting go of your wife her untrustworthy ways to establish that your self-respect, dignity and integrity are the most important things in your life is what you NEED and WANT to do. You know what you're worth, go out and get what you're worth and let go of the things that are worthy of you - starting feeling your personal value, know it, resonate with it, live it. You are worth better than what she is giving you right now, if you don't set that boundary, you'll allow her to do this to you forever and who could respect that?

Otherwise continue playing this game and you'll be playing this chase & pursue game, pushing & pulling for the rest of your life.

Time to get off the merry go round, this ride isn't that fun anymore.





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Guess what, Jim? Robx wasn't "all that" with his great wisdom when he first arrived here. He was just as floored by the actions of his WAW as most men are. I remember telling him that his W acted like a spoiled brat and was censored for it. shocked Anyway, he was a fast learner, and when he got the hang of it, he never changed back. Frankly, I loved his style b/c I think it works especially well on spoiled brats, entitled princesses, and b'tches. And......he busted the divorce! I wish his threads were still around here.

So, I said all of that to say this: You can do the same. You can adopt the same attitude.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Jim
Just caught up with your thread. As a potential WAW then a strong independent loving H with a GAL of his own would for me beat any Tarzan type. You appear to be choosing who you want to be and look to be moving towards your goals steadily and with determination. Taking guidance from the vets and DBing.
I am learning a great deal from you and your thread, and am one of your cheer team.
Blessings
Vanilla


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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