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Originally Posted By: sandi2
"She volunteered reassurance that she didn't cheat on me this weekend, that OM wasn't at her presentation. Hopefully some new intel from the next few days will reveal the truth of this claim."

Did it ever resonate that cancelling the CC had nothing to do with OM/cheating, but that she did not honor the agreemsnt she had just made regarding usage of the card?


Honestly, I don't think she was thinking logically enough to understand that connection, although I restated it a couple times. I think it was a pretty clear distinction from my end.

We had another convo last night. I had come home early from work because I was feeling sick. W actually offered to make me dinner and brought it to me in bed! She went to her side of the house to study and a little later i left the house to vote. When I got home she came to the kitchen while I was making myself some tea and she indicated she wanted to talk - asking what I was thinking/feeling about the R, the sitch, and about her.

Over the course of the next hour and a half we discussed holiday plans (which are separate for now) and I reiterated my feelings about how I would be okay regardless of the outcome. She showed frustration about how friends, family, and myself are all acting like she isn't serious when she says she doesn't want to be married. She said she has been feeling this way the past year. I validated her feelings to be real and commented that it doesn't seem like she has actually planned to be single and independent since she still lives with me, is dependent on me financially, and especially after this weekend when she had no access to money because she was only using our emergency savings and my cc. She paused and said yeah, I guess I didn't plan it. I guess I've been saying I want to be independent but I'm not. She wanted to discuss what our plans are for money going forward so she knows she will have access to funds. I simply stated that the money for our bills and emergencies is meant for only those things.

She also asked what I thought about our joint spending acct. I said that I see that as family money and since she is telling me she doesn't want to be part of our family why should she be spending it? Seems like this was all sinking in. She agreed she needs to pay for her own living expenses. I also reminded her within two days of me getting paid, our spending money was already gone and we had not bought groceries yet and I don't get paid for another 10 days. She brought up how I had cc debt before we got married as if that validated her current spending patterns. I kindly apologized for mistakes I made 4-5 years ago and explained that although I've made mistakes in the past I've learned from them and don't want to continue with bad spending patterns. She agreed spending our grocery money on other things was a mistake and also agreed she didn't want more cc debt either.

We talked about vehicles - 4 months ago we bought a new vehicle for her, sold her old car, and paid my truck off. She realizes that if we S she can't afford the payment. Her idea was for me to sell my truck, use the $ to pay off cc's and I would drive her vehicle... I told her I didn't like that idea because I want my truck, not what she has. I reminded her that I was thinking long term when we bought that and now is a bad time to sell it. She said, well then let's sell my car and I'll get something cheaper. I said I don't think that's possible since we just bought it we will be a couple thousand under water. And I don't want to finance another new vehicle loan when my credit is bad due to high cc balances and the recent purchase of her car. She settled that she would either offer to pay half of the payment for her car or ask her parents for a loan (she can't get one since she doesn't have credit or make enough $). I asked if she had talked with her dad about that plan and she said no he hadn't. I doubt he will bail her out if he sees me acting rationally and fighting for our M. He is supportive of us staying together and disappointed by her actions.

I stayed home sick again today. W had her first day on the new job. I got up to send a couple emails and make some phone calls and remembered W had made me dinner, so I reciprocated and made her coffee, packed her lunch and left a note thanking her for making me dinner last night. Hopefully this is seen by her as reinforcing her positive behavior not pursuing...

I've been thinking a lot today and setting R goals as suggested in DR. I had also read about a suggested 90 day plan in Torn Asunder - W's mom sent me that book. So I wrote up a plan for W and my next 100 days. It's evident to me we will be living together for at least that long since W is financially dependent and is planning to be a resident WAW. As far as I can tell from my intel she hasn't made contact with OM and he wasn't there this weekend. W is begging for clarity on finances, and I want to be clear on my core boundaries and be set up well for the future whether we reconcile or not.

Here is my proposed plan:
----
100 day plan

Agree to not talk about separation or divorce, or take actions that would end or hurt our relationship during the 100 days. Once the 100 days is over, either of us can leave if we want to.

Establish budget that will allow:
Us to begin paying down credit cards
W to save for future expenses and contribute to current expenses
H to pursue grad school and new hobbies

W will continue to have no contact with OM

We will each choose one activity we like and the other will participate with us once per week with no complaining. Can change the activity each week or keep it the same.

We won't make major purchases or financial decisions during this time, with the exception of several we already have planned.

Any changes to the plan need to be discussed before action is taken or commitments are made. We will agree to allow 24 hours before making a decision together on any changes.

We will continue to live in the same house and drive the same cars during this time.

----
Your thoughts? Am I piecing too soon? I haven't finished DR/DB books but am working on that today. Hoping the books and you all can help me decide whether or not to propose this plan to W.


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
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Wait...........aren't the two of you seeing different goals? Did she agree to work on the M during this last conversation with her?

You must finish reading DR now!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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UP,

Has she actually ASKED you the big "what will it take?" question? Has she SAID she was willing to do piecing with you?

I must have missed that.

Until she does, I do like the civil conversations about financial realities and such you are having (good job!), and I also like the boundaries and agreements you've laid out in your 100-day plan. (However, I would NOT put a # of days on it -- make it more of a "TFN" thing . . . waywards view 100-day deadlines as tacit approval to continue to be wayward for the next 99 days, upon which they will then promise you the earth, moon and stars to let them back into the marriage).

I think you have some real positives going for you. You both obviously still love and care for each other, and your wife seems to be respectful of your boundaries for the most part. I think if you let the natural kicking-in of some of the financial and other "BGPs" things kick in, and maintain your GAL and positive changes, the marriage might just look very attractive to her after only a few months.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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"Has she actually ASKED you the big "what will it take?" question? Has she SAID she was willing to do piecing with you?"

This is key. You won't be in Piecing unless the WAS makes a commitment in words and actions that they are willing to do whatever it takes to salvage the M. This also includes complete transparency.

Starsky's got it right.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Wait...........aren't the two of you seeing different goals? Did she agree to work on the M during this last conversation with her?

You must finish reading DR now!

I know I am getting ahead of myself... Yes we have different goals right now. She wants to be free and single, I want to be married. No, she hasn't shown any desire to work on the M. I continued reading DR and MWD basically said the same thing you are saying. I am being impatient! I know this is a long road but I'm feeling tired and want to be further along than I am.


Originally Posted By: Starsky309
UP,

Has she actually ASKED you the big "what will it take?" question? Has she SAID she was willing to do piecing with you?

I must have missed that.

Until she does, I do like the civil conversations about financial realities and such you are having (good job!), and I also like the boundaries and agreements you've laid out in your 100-day plan. (However, I would NOT put a # of days on it -- make it more of a "TFN" thing . . . waywards view 100-day deadlines as tacit approval to continue to be wayward for the next 99 days, upon which they will then promise you the earth, moon and stars to let them back into the marriage).

I think you have some real positives going for you. You both obviously still love and care for each other, and your wife seems to be respectful of your boundaries for the most part. I think if you let the natural kicking-in of some of the financial and other "BGPs" things kick in, and maintain your GAL and positive changes, the marriage might just look very attractive to her after only a few months.


Starsky
No, she hasn't asked the "what would it take" question. She doesn't even want to be married at this point. I do see positive signs and effort on her end to connect with me, reassure me A is over, but she is certainly not ready for piecing yet. Im feeling impatient and annoyed that I have to change. Limbo is getting old and I feel like my PMA is at an all time low right now... Her weeks and weeks of negative words about our M is multiplying in my head right now. Others are telling me I've been going well, to stay the course, but I feel like I just want to shove her out the door and be done with this.

I'm struggling with 180s. A big one is letting her figure stuff out on her own. I always want to help her figure stuff out, which doesn't allow her to grow and experience her "BGP" lessons. Please pray for me to let go of control.

Waaa waaa. I know I'm acting like a baby right now! I know what I am supposed to do but I have a bad attitude and don't want to do it.


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
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Originally Posted By: UpperCu


Waaa waaa. I know I'm acting like a baby right now! I know what I am supposed to do but I have a bad attitude and don't want to do it.



That would be correct. At least you recognize it.


Look, until she actually WANTS back into the marriage, laying "100-day Plans" in front of her and such is only going to SMOTHER her, chase her away, and TURN HER OFF. Keep up your changes, be mysterious and distant (but civil and courteous when you ARE interacting with her), and stop trying to pull up the carrots before they're ripe!!! Every time you do, it's a setback.

Sometimes you sound like you're 27 going on 17. Time to be 27 going on 37, put on your BBBs (Big-Boy Britches) and do the work, U.C. There *are* no shortcuts.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Good advice from Starsky as usual. I would just add - at times when I have really felt fed up and like saying 'that's it!' I just do nothing for a bit - take a bit of time off. Try to stop thinking about it all so much, spend some time with friends, do something nice etc...

I figure it will all be waiting for me again when I'm ready to pick up the baton again!


T 13 M 7
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SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Quote:
Im feeling impatient and annoyed that I have to change


Why are you annoyed that you have to change? The change should not be used to win her back. If that is your motivation, then it causes you to have expectations in her. When she doesn't respond the way you thought she should, you feel there's no point to change.

I think this is an issue in yourself you need to examine. The changes are to make you a better/improved person. That is for your good! Why does it make you annoyed? If you don't think you should have to change, then don't. B/c you won't stick to any changes with this kind of attitude. Maybe that is what you need to deal with now.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: UpperCu


Waaa waaa. I know I'm acting like a baby right now! I know what I am supposed to do but I have a bad attitude and don't want to do it.



That would be correct. At least you recognize it.


Look, until she actually WANTS back into the marriage, laying "100-day Plans" in front of her and such is only going to SMOTHER her, chase her away, and TURN HER OFF. Keep up your changes, be mysterious and distant (but civil and courteous when you ARE interacting with her), and stop trying to pull up the carrots before they're ripe!!! Every time you do, it's a setback.

Sometimes you sound like you're 27 going on 17. Time to be 27 going on 37, put on your BBBs (Big-Boy Britches) and do the work, U.C. There *are* no shortcuts.


Starsky


Thanks Starsky. I know I need to hear all that. And thank you Sandi. I've taken a step back because I know my bad attitude needs to change. Past few days I've kept my distance and have not pursued. We've had a couple convos this weekend which she initiated (normally we talk when I come from being out and she is on her end of the house and hears me in the kitchen, she will come in and linger and ask how I am and what I've been up to). She has confided in me that she is frustrated at her former best friend who has closed the door on their friendship because of the A and that my W has said she doesn't want to be married any more. She also has confided in me about being upset at her mom who continues to pressure her to change and says she is praying for a miracle. My W says she is shocked at how people who are "Christians" have rejected her but says she is impressed at how I've shown her Christ's love throughout the sitch. She said "if I choose to go back down the christian road I would make it my mission to change that image."

She reassured me she still wants to "not" be married like she has also said in almost of our convos. She says she doesn't want to give me false hope. I have told her I don't agree with her mom that a "miracle" will revert everything back to normal. I told her I don't think her mom or most of our friends understand our R or our sitch, and don't have experience dealing with what were going through and that R's are just hard work. The thought a miracle could fix everything isn't even logical.

She asked if I've mourned our relationship. I was surprised to hear her ask that... And said I guess I've mourned what I thought we had before but said I know it's not like we can wave a magic wand to go back there. I asked her if she had mourned it - she said she misses parts of it, that she thinks we had a good R. That she misses things like giving each other foot rubs. I chuckled with her about that.

Last night we had a good interaction and I was telling stories and we were both laughing hysterically at one point. She said "thanks for being my friend through all this" at one point.

At the same time, she talked about what others would think and say when she "starts the separation process." She talks as if she is planning to separate and proceed with D, but also says she doesn't see why others are upset at her actions to not be married when "no decisions have been made."

She again expressed remorse and says she feels bad that she sunk so low to have an A while married. At one point I told her how the betrayal was hurtful and that although it was hurtful I think it is possible to overcome an A in a marriage. I told her I was serious about my commitment to our marriage, but felt I had to set boundaries to define what our marriage is and preserve the sanctity of marriage, which she has respected for the most part. She agreed the A could be overcome, but said she doesn't see how a M could work without two people committed to it and she can't be that person right now. She actually said at one point she is weighing the cost of S and D.


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Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
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So I've been thinking more about where my sitch is at and assessing my plan through the end of the year. I feel like I need to change tactics to address some negative behaviors my W has embraced.

We have been in somewhat of a holding pattern the past few weeks of me not pursuing and W initiating conversations. W seems to be softening back up to our R somewhat, recalling the good times of our R, and shows more remorse each week.

However she is repeatedly telling me that while no decisions have been made, she intends to separate and does not want to be married. It seems like she feels there is a need to hold the threat of D over my head as a way to keep me from having hope in our R and any hope in her. At the same time she is also saying she appreciates how kind I've been throughout the sitch so far but she isn't holding her breath because she thinks this is just a ploy to get her back and my kindness to her will dissipate once she starts the separation/divorce process.

On the financial front, W started her new part time job last week. She is already making plans to take unpaid time off for other trips and the holidays. Right now she is spending her own $ in the form of racking up a cc balance in her name, and the way the budget numbers look to me with her limited hours worked and her expensive upcoming holiday plans, she will not begin to be able to survive on her own financially until February/March. Unless she uses loan money and/or taps her daddy for help. She has always been fearful to use borrowed money to live off of and I doubt my father in law will be very supportive of her financially if he thinks I am not being a total jerk. He is angry at her and in disbelief about the sitch as much as anyone.

Her work and money plans sound to me like a commitment on her part to not face reality and live in limbo land at our home for the next 3 months or longer. No action on my part would enable that.

Intel shows W has, so far, maintained NC with OM but that she is daily monitoring OM and his GF's online profiles. I see this as meaning one or a combination of several things: she is fantasizing about her A with OM and reliving it in her mind, or she is waiting for OM to make a move to break up with his GF so W and OM can take their R to the next level, or she sees his GF as her competition and is comparing herself to the OW, or she is paranoid one of the two will expose the A potentially hurting W's career and also creating new drama for W in the professional world.

Any way I attempt to rationalize this behavior, I arrive at the conclusion that her intentions are purely selfish and harmful to our M. To me it seems she is keeping the fantasy of the A and the deception alive, while telling me and the world it's all over. For all I know she may have made a plan with OM to just put their R on hold for awhile (there has been no NC letter or phone call with me in the loop). My intel has also shown several instances where W was looking up plane tix from our town to OM's hometown (I assume for a holiday visit??) along with other driving directions to measure the distance to OM's city from potential cities she could live/work.

I have NOT confronted W about her "one way online stalking" and apparent travel dreams, at least not since within a few days after DDay, but I have an issue with it and feel like it needs to stop. Obsessive stalking/fantasizing is still a form of "contact" in my book which violates one of my core boundaries.

I feel like I've built a positive rapport and environment where W is open to talking with me and she has a positive view of me and our R right now so I want to maintain that, but I feel like more boundaries are necessary to stop the cake eating and limbo. I'm really not okay with being the financier of a boarding house for the wayward.

Does anyone have any creative ideas on how I can change tactics to work towards ending these behaviors?

Starsky, I know there are no shortcuts but I know you took a hardline approach against ongoing deception and disrespect in your sitch. I feel like my W is resting too easily right now and holding the reins too much. I think she needs a wake up call to reality and to know that I'm not playing games. I don't want to show my cards too soon, but I have mounting evidence to support her actions I've outlined. I've read where you had to show your hand at times to push things over the edge.


UpperCut
Me: 28 W: 25
Married: 4 yrs Together: 7 yrs
Dday: 9/14 (W ends affair & comes home)
S: 12/14 (W restarted affair 1/15; moved near OM 2/15)
No kids
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