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A Message from Michele
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Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 #2504477
11/05/14 05:18 PM
11/05/14 05:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
Dallas, TX
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Jefe Offline OP
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Jefe  Offline OP
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Guess I'm setting a new record for how fast I can fill a thread to 100 posts. Less than a week on that last one.

The old one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504468#Post2504468


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: Jefe] #2504482
11/05/14 05:24 PM
11/05/14 05:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
Dallas, TX
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Jefe Offline OP
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Jefe  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
Dallas, TX
I'm just hurting, alot. I'll pull out of it, I just need some time to regroup.

This is not the life I wanted for my children. I simply can't believe that this is the life my wife wanted for them either. I hurts to believe that this is what she wants to teach her daughters about being a woman, a wife, and a mother. This IS NOT the woman I fell in love with.

I'm hearing what you are all saying, just give me a minute...

Theoden you posted this on 81388's thread, 02/07/07 10:45 AM:

"8,

I'm sorry this hurts so much.

Take a deep breath. Pray. Ask God to clarify things. Ask him for wisdom and. Panic won't solve anything. God can turn this around in an instant. He's already at work. It's never too late. Time is on your side. God is shaping these events, however painful, for your ultimate good. He hasn't fallen asleep on the job. Ask him to remind you of his love for you and his Fatherly concern. Feeling, knowing and basking in his love for you makes all the other stuff a little less daunting.

Looks like your getting a better idea of what OM gives her: validation, self-esteem. Perhaps that part of her that he "feeds" is really a wonderful and authentic part of her. Maybe you can pray that God gives you a vision to "see" that part of her more clearly. Ask God to show you how to love that part of her. Give thanks to God that you have a little more information. Run with it. Your not competing with the OM. It's not even a contest. You are better than the OM. You are walking in light and truth, you are filled with self-less love, you are fighting for your marriage and family. He's a grasping, manipulative, home-wrecking, SOB.

You are noble and relentless hunter of the heart and you are creatively and passionately pursuing your wife so that she knows what real love is.

You can tell her that you would like to stay for D birthday, but if she feels the trip is really important, you understand. Be nice, non-pressuring. Accept her decision.

Truth is, why do you want her to stay for D birthday? Your wife, right now, cares about herself more than anyone else. This is one of those symptoms. It's part of the profile. She only cares about her career, her feelings, her happiness, etc. It's all about her. She feels right now, if she doesn't take care of herself in this way she'll suffocate. It will disappoint your daughter. But you will be there for your daughter. Perhaps daughter needs to realize what kind of mom she has. Perhaps she needs to realize that daddy's the one who's really there for her. You don't need trash-talk her mom. Just let mom do what she wants, and she'll see her for who she really is.

And yes, she might end up being with OM that week. And yes, they probably will have sex.

Get over the fact, that right now, your wife would feel relieved if you died. Perhaps right now you might feel relieved if she got in a fatal accident. I've felt that. It happens. People's feelings change.

Missing D's birthday is no big deal. Don't sweat it.

As I've said. If she's having an affair, you have the moral right to divorce her. If you don't want to divorce her, you'll have to suffer horrific pain in the hope of winning her back. It can be done. It's just costly.

What do you want? How badly do you want it?

How much pain are you willing to go through to achieve what you want?

That's why you need to GAL. You need strength for the battle.

If you want to save your marriage, don't tell her to leave. She'll leave on her own if she really wants to.

If she wants the divorce, don't co-operate. Let her file, let her do all the work.

If, on the other hand you are fed up and you want *exclusive custody of the children* and want to divorce her, then, perhaps hire a Private Investigator and get proof of the affair. You might divorce her for cause. Be careful. The state may still give her patial custody even if you can prove adultery. If, in the end, you only get them on weekends, regardless of your legal wranglings, then why bother?

I'm rooting for you bro.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the angels and the saints are on your side.

--Theoden
"

It resonated with me. Don't know why, but it did.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: Jefe] #2504505
11/05/14 06:04 PM
11/05/14 06:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 545
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MCS Offline
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Posts: 545
"It resonated with me. Don't know why, but it did."

Yep, this one helped me out too. Thanks for sharing

Last edited by MCS; 11/05/14 06:05 PM.

M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: MCS] #2504672
11/06/14 03:53 AM
11/06/14 03:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 176
NY
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Hope414 Offline
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NY
Okay Jefe,

Based on the posts it is obvious I speak as the solo voice of dissent regarding your situation. Because of all the posts I will address the advice I have been giving to you with the group:

I am not providing advice based on a rigid formula or my own personal experience. I am giving advice after studying communication styles, pattern of behavior and history between Jefe and his wife. At no time have I said, “Jefe, this is what I found worked for me.”

Jefe, from your blogging, together we have found some destructive behavior patterns you and your wife engaged in.

Do I believe your side of the story is the most accurate side of the story? No.

I believe your wife also has a story to tell.

I believe you have been as honest as you can when telling your wife’s story which I find admirable. But I believe you are telling your wife’s story through a foggy lens. You are hurt and desperate to have your family back. This creates gaps in memory and an inability to detach.

I have never swayed from my goal--which is to get you both into marriage counseling.

The best of all worlds is to get you both into divorce busting sessions because it deals with behavior modification. However, you have explained money is an issue. Because of this, my alternative is to get you both into pastoral marriage counseling because it is free. Pastoral marriage counseling is different than traditional marriage counseling because the goal is to save the marriage rather than help couples “decide what they want to do about the marriage.”

I admire people who take time from their life to offer support to others on this web site. The value of community cannot be measured when someone is going through something as painful as an unwelcome separation or divorce.

However, I caution people to pay attention to the advice and support which is being offered.

When someone gives you support or advice that explains how “they” handled a situation please take note they are relaying a story from their life. This story has a beginning, middle and conclusion. This story involves people with no relationship to you or your life. Their shared experiences are different and their perceptions are different. Even if the people in their story did everything exactly the same as people in your life it is still not the same story as your story. Your story will always be different.

Does their story have relevance to your life?

Absolutely.

For example, if your husband cheats on you once he will probably cheat on you twice. If your spouse hits you when you are dating it is unlikely they will stop hitting you once you are married. Why do we know this? Because hundreds of people with shared experiences have lived this. These people can tell you the best way to handle these situations. And, 90% of the time they will be correct.

But—10% of the time these people will be wrong.

The problem with shared experiences is we become so wrapped up in the community we forget about the individual. We become so focused on the rigid standards of the program that we fail to take inventory of its effectiveness.

Jefe, the group and I will continuing to disagree over romance and pursuit. This I accept.

But the group is wrong about whether romance toward your wife will work. Your wife responds to it. I urge everyone to stop concentrating only one aspect of the divorce busting principles.

Yes. You are not supposed to pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

But you are also supposed to listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Show them you really care about what they are saying. Don’t focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

Even Michelle’s Last Resort Technique says if your spouse starts showing interest in you that you should be receptive “but not overly excited or enthusiastic.” (Jefe, this is where you keep dropping the ball.)

But Michelle encourages spouses to accept invitations to spend time together and be responsive (just not too response). She wants you to test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together.

My goodness…how do you think your marriage will heal?

What you keep doing wrong Jefe, is you keep wearing your emotions on your sleeve because you love your wife so much. I understand. You want your family back. And every day you don’t get your heart’s desire it hurts.

Do you have an internal time clock ticking in your head?

In other words, do you have pre-set time goals and when those goals aren’t met you are crushed? For example, “We will be a family again by Thanksgiving” and when you realize this isn’t going to happen…your heart breaks and you lose hope.

If you want to talk to an attorney, I do not discourage it. I do discourage taking legal action. I think this is lighting a match to your marriage. In fact, if you take legal action I think you are walking down a path you cannot exit from.

Now, regarding the conversation with your wife:

I think the conversation went well. You left it on a question that really wasn’t important enough to answer.

The only thing I would suggest is don’t “tell” her how she feels. “Ask” her how she feels.

W: I told you we are going full days on the weekends now right?
W: As soon as we get these new drivers trained we will go back to A/B schedules.
M: Yes. You're going to be tired.


You should have said:

M: Will that make you tired?

“Asking” her how she feels allows her to express herself. When you “tell” her how she feels she is forced to fight for her feelings if she disagrees with you.


M: 62
H: 67
Bomb dropped: October 2012
R: 4-2014

I've never regretted saying "I'm sorry"
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: Hope414] #2504686
11/06/14 04:45 AM
11/06/14 04:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
Dallas, TX
J
Jefe Offline OP
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Jefe  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2014
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"Jefe, from your blogging, together we have found some destructive behavior patterns you and your wife engaged in.

Do I believe your side of the story is the most accurate side of the story? No.

I believe your wife also has a story to tell.
"

You would be correct on all three assumptions. I have tried to portray her side as best I can from what she has said in the past and what she has written. Obviously it's getting filtered through my very being so it will always be skewed to some degree. I am trying to be as factual about what I believe my problems to be because I want to change my life and my behavior for the better. For God and Myself, my children, and my wife. I've been a lousy husband, I know it, and I want to change that. Have I done everything wrong? No, I don't believe so. Does my wife have some culpability here? Absolutely, but she's not here to defend herself and I can't change her. All we're left with is talking about my stuff and with the grace of God and the kind people on this forum (and a paid professional pitching in to help for no other reason than because she can) helping me change that stuff.

"Even Michelle’s Last Resort Technique says if your spouse starts showing interest in you that you should be receptive “but not overly excited or enthusiastic.” (Jefe, this is where you keep dropping the ball.)"

Yes, I agree. I also agree that I need to set some boundaries. I attempted that a little tonight and it went reasonably well.

"What you keep doing wrong Jefe, is you keep wearing your emotions on your sleeve because you love your wife so much. I understand. You want your family back. And every day you don’t get your heart’s desire it hurts.

Do you have an internal time clock ticking in your head?

In other words, do you have pre-set time goals and when those goals aren't met you are crushed? For example, “We will be a family again by Thanksgiving” and when you realize this isn't going to happen…your heart breaks and you lose hope.
"

I guess, I mean not really, but sort of. I feel like I am fighting time. I realize that I need to be in this long term. Everyone has made that clear. I guess I'm just trying to stave off particular events from happening, but there I go trying to be in control again. Need to add that to my 4th step list. Control (or lack thereof) = common theme for both of us.

"If you want to talk to an attorney, I do not discourage it. I do discourage taking legal action. I think this is lighting a match to your marriage. In fact, if you take legal action I think you are walking down a path you cannot exit from."

I have no intentions of going there. I do intend to at least talk to one to see where I'm at if she files. Seems wise at this point. I did check the court records today and she has not filed.

"Now, regarding the conversation with your wife:

I think the conversation went well. You left it on a question that really wasn’t important enough to answer.

The only thing I would suggest is don’t “tell” her how she feels. “Ask” her how she feels.

W: I told you we are going full days on the weekends now right?
W: As soon as we get these new drivers trained we will go back to A/B schedules.
M: Yes. You're going to be tired.

You should have said:

M: Will that make you tired?
"

Thank you. I need to change the way I speak to her and others in my life permanently so any insight on this topic is greatly appreciated. I have to repeat it at least 16 times to start forming better habits, right?


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: Jefe] #2504687
11/06/14 04:51 AM
11/06/14 04:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 151
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FunDad Offline
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Posts: 151

Dang she's good. Amazing insight. I'm listening too. :-)


Me:40
W:39
M:Dec 95
Split: Jul 14
W Filed: 9/16/14
Several Children
(including adopted)
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: Jefe] #2504691
11/06/14 05:09 AM
11/06/14 05:09 AM
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Posts: 2,148
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theoden Offline
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Jefe,

Wow....from the deep archives eh? Well...that's when I was naiive. ;-)

As you can see I was non-confrontational back then.

I didn't realize how debilitating standing and waiting would be to me. How debilitating? The stress caused me health problems: tinnitus, sleep disorders, a hiatal hernia, anxiety attacks, depression.

I laid down no boundaries and never re-attracted my wife. I wouldn't say the same things now...especially about sitting around and waiting for your wife to file for divorce. That strategy didn't work for me; nor does it work for 90% of the people out there. I was wallowing in self-doubt, self-blame and behavior modification: walking on eggshells all the time, analyzing every conversation, begging God for mercy, asking him to change me so I could get a chance to woo back my lovely but "wounded" wife.

Sadly I didn't have the moral courage to admit to myself that my wife was a lying, cheating, selfish piece of s**t. I should have laid down an ultimatum, and if she refused to dump the OM, I should have thown her crap out the front door in hefty bags and then filed for divorce.

Hindsight is 20/20. It's all I've got to offer you.


Last edited by theoden; 11/06/14 05:12 AM.



Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: FunDad] #2504693
11/06/14 05:10 AM
11/06/14 05:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
Dallas, TX
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Jefe Offline OP
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Jefe  Offline OP
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Yes she is.

Okay, Blogging:

Got my first laser removal treatment for the wedding band tattoo this afternoon. That hurt a bit more than I expected but it was over so fast that it was crazy. Swollen and irritated now but not too bad. The tattoo is a purple ink band outlined in black on either side. He said he fully expects the black to be gone in about 60 days with only the one treatment, maybe just a tiny bit of touch-up. The purple unfortunately is going to need 6-9 more treatments spread 60 days apart. Oh well. It is worth every bit of it. I can endure some pain and prolonged suffering as repentance for what I've caused in keeping it.

I play every other Wed in the Worship Band at church for our recovery service and tonight was my night. I was able to put some of this emotional energy to good use and stopped thinking about my stuff for a few minutes. I enjoyed that. There was also a friend of mine there who relapsed last night and was having a tough time so I talked with her for about 15-20 minutes. Always good for the soul and PMA to be able to help someone else for a moment.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: Jefe] #2504695
11/06/14 05:15 AM
11/06/14 05:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
Dallas, TX
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Jefe Offline OP
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Jefe  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,104
Dallas, TX
Theoden, trust me when I say that I am taking all the advice I have been given and I am listening. I appreciate your comments thus far. Please do not stop giving your insight on the situation. All information is valuable right now.


Me 47 - W 35
M 9 - T 10
2 Daughters - 7 & 9
Discovery of EA- 8/4/14
S - 8/5/15
D mentioned - 9/11/14
R & Piecing - 3/17/15
Regard one another as more important than yourselves.
- Philippians 2:3
Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 [Re: Hope414] #2504751
11/06/14 02:24 PM
11/06/14 02:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Florida
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Starsky309 Offline
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Starsky309  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Florida
Originally Posted By: Hope414


I am not providing advice based on a rigid formula or my own personal experience. I am giving advice after studying communication styles, pattern of behavior and history between Jefe and his wife. At no time have I said, “Jefe, this is what I found worked for me.”



Hope, all we (any of us) have are our own experiences (and biases), based on our own sitches. I think it might be helpful for Jefe -- and for any others following along -- if you actually would let us know what worked for you. I've never seen you mention it, you've never even initiated your own thread on this forum.

I go by what worked for me, and what I've seen work in my 10 1/2 years on this forum. I've never once seen a betrayed spouse "nice" or "romance" their wayward spouse back to the marriage, and if anything I've seen it turn OFF the wayward spouse and eat at the self-esteem of the betrayed spouse.

Jefe, I've posted my links for you before but I'll post them again if you think it would be helpful. I'm going by what worked for me (and what I've seen work for others); theoden (and some others) are going by what DIDN'T work for them, in an effort to try and help you avoid the same mistakes they made.

I'll be the first to admit that your wife MAY be different; your SITCH may be different. But it's been my observation and experience that they're usually not . . . most follow a pretty basic "script," with very few variations around the edges.

In any event, this is all "meta" discussion and I apologize for the distraction. I did want to ask Hope for some more perspective on where her advice was coming from, because it is SO specific, and SO directive (as it mine and theo's, admittedly), and yet we have zero context for it. Hope if you don't want to post it, that's cool too . . . I do appreciate the time you're taking to try and help Jefe here, and the support you're giving him. He's certainly getting multiple perspectives, and that's not a bad thing.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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